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are we deceived, is luke the one spoken off

No, because George Lucas confirmed it is Anakin!

it was anakin was the chosen one and luke is anakins son

Since Anakin is the Chosen One he will help the prophecy come true by having Luke.

anakin was the chosen one.....he failed...the task then became lukes...if luke failed, it would have fallen upon leia.....

Anakin is the chosen one and he fore fill the prophesy by killing the emperor

...with the help of Luke.

If Luke were not there Anakin/Vader wouldn't have seen the Light again.

very true lance i aggree with you on that

nobody said the chosen one didnt get any help to fore filling the prophecy

you guys are twisting each others words around...we are all saying the same thing.

I never said that it mattered if he got help at all.

I was just pointing out that he did have help.

and I was pointing out that Anakin forefilled the prophecy

with lukes help.

well Vader was the one who had to make the call wheter he should knock off the emperor so in the end it was all up to him

In the end, yes.

but it was lukes torture that drove him to that decision.

but the fact is that Vader was the one ending up doing it

I agree with Finti, adding that Anakin needed Luke's help is utterly irrelevant to the point that Anakin being the one that destroyed the Emperor- the ONLY one that could- confirms him as the Chosen One; nothing else is worth adding to that.

what if luke had chosen not to face vader again? you think vader would wake up one day and say "well, im gonna kill my master today." no...luke being there made vader realize there was still good left in him.

what if Vader and Luke made friends in ESB?
kind of a lame way to argue this point by turning into what if scenarios.
There is no what if!!!!!!!!

there is definitely a what if...thats why people come here...to talk smack about their fave things....it is totally open for debate.

But Luke went to face Vader again which crush the idea for a what if, what if can be used for things to happen in the future, never in the past.

A debate about what if of a thing that happened is among the most ridiculouse debated there is.

again....talking to a brick wall........forget i said anything.......obviously some people just cant say "you know, maybe they got a point".....no hard feelings

ps: remember the "what if qui gon hadnt died" thread? there was some good debate there........how do you explain that?

if you are to debate a thing that have happened there is no what if, cause it cant change the fact.

Anyways even if Luke was a factor in Vaders doings, it was Vader who had to take the final decision.

again.....explain the qui gon thread...me and ush had some awesome discussions on that one.....and vader wouldnt have made that decision if luke wasnt there.

Well the I thought the what if qui gon thread was stupid for the same reason I mentioned above. There is no answer to what if questions cause noone knows the answer

Well Luke was there and Vader didnt have to do it but he did. He was the only one who could do it. And by doing it he forefilled the prophecy of the chosen one

the very fact that we dont know the answer makes it debatable.....are you saying that everyone who responded to that thread in a positive way is full of it?

they only debated the what if for a page the rest is about fighting styles of double bladed and single bladed swords.

To answer your question about the what if, any what if questions about the past is useless cause no one is right and no one is wrong which means it is pointless to debate it cause it has no ending.

just forget it....i dont want to piss off a mod......stick to your guns, fint. cya

you dont piss me off

K people, I don't want to annoy anyone but wasnt Anakin the "Chosen One" regardless of whether he fulfilled the prophecy??
He was concieved of the midi-chlorians therefore he was the prophecy, the chosen one.
Is that way off the mark??
Sorry If Im wrong.

well the prophecy was for the chosen one to fulfill it(bringing balance to the force), so if he didnt fullfill it he wouldnt be the chosen one

So could it work that he was the Chosen One but just didn't fulfil the prophecy??
Never mind, I'm confusing myself

no he had to fulfill the prophecy, cause after all that is the chosens ones task

So he WASNT the Chosen One he was just incredibly gifted??

he became the chosen one when he killed the emperor, he then fullfilled the prophecy of bringing balance to the force. Before that Anakin was just belived/hoped to be the chosen one.

Oh of course...like all that stuff Windu said in Ep2:
"...if the prophecy is true your apprentice could be the one to bring the force back into balance..."
Thanx for being so patient with me finti

My pleasure Lyn

Anakin was the one "conceived" without sex...
That's enough for me

yeah, no fun

But can you imagine how weird Shmi felt. Like she hasn't slept with anyone and suddenly she's pregnant. It'd scare the crap out of me!!

then never get drunjk

she would have to wonder "did i drink that much the other night? damn...hope it wasnt that rodian in the cantina."

hmmm.... anakin is the chosen one he brought the force back to balance... he killed palpatine... luke lived and trained new jedi... he closed the cyrcle and began a new one.... i believe thats what the balance was all about....

good point, but watch the eu stuff...they dont like our kind around here.

damn right we dont

damn right!!!!!

It is kind of unclear what "bring balance to the force" means : By the way everything ends it looks like getting rid of the darkside. Personally I would say the light and dark side balance each other. If one is "gone" wheres the balance?

good point....

Star Wars: Episode VII
Revenge of the Empire

what?

That was....unexpected.

its very simple.... lucas took the balance of the force from the Ying- Yang
its very clear..... no need to look further

a loth of mythologies have the balance thing between good and evil so GL could have taken it from a lot of places

as he said, he wanted to create something universal, and finti is right about it being from a lot of places, that's what makes it universal!

It's the basis for any drama thing like that. There's almost always a baddie. That's what makes it interesting. Yerssot, finti

No, George Lucas explained that to balance the Force you needed to destroy the Sith, that's it. The Light Side brings balance, the Dark Side destroys it. Luke will refound the Jedi and a new Galaxy with plentyy of Jedi and no Sith will be well balanced.

To quote GL himself from the Japenese magazine interview he gave:

"In each of us we have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this... it is obvious to that The Sith are going to destroy this balance... at the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces "

So there you go. The Sith (and the 'Dark force' they represent) will destroy this balance when they wipe out the Jedi, by destroying the Sith the balance will be restored.

What USh said.

Also, just to further that and nail down the thread subject:

"Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrfice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor"

No, he'll fulfill the prophecy by killing the emperor.

well aren't u the smart one.

Well no not really. I love Star Wars and all, but i am told most of this stuff. I dont have the time (actually i just dont want to TAKE the time) to research Star Wars facts.

Oh hey look that was answered in the previous post. Well maybe you're right, Member, I'm the "smart" one

That's a great way of summarising it, makes it very easy to understand. Nice one Ush

by helping him reflect on his life, he assisted in killing the emperor. not directly, but nevertheless assisted.

And what a great moment in SW & film history that was

I know Ush's summary is hwat Lucas said and will be theSW way on the whole. I still think it doesn't work too well. THe balance is disrupted when Anakin turns to evil and it gets shifted back into balance by killing the Emperor?????? All that doesn't make sense. If killing the Emperor restores balance then the balance is already disrupted before TPM starts.

If Anakin's fall causes the unbalance in the Force then his return to the good side is what recreates the balance. And his turn to good was more Luke's work than Anakin. So Luke is my chosen one. It makes a lot more sense, but hey, I'll go with what Lucas gives me. It's all I have.

i agree, queeq...the burden fell upon luke when anakin chose to go bad....i gave up trying to win supporters for this argument.

Well, I am and have been for a long time. Ush and I totally disagree on this. I know Ush tells us what Lucas is going to give us, I just think it's too bad. I think it's too bad Lucas brought in this whole prophecy thing at all. SW definately didn't need that, it's pretty dramatic without it. I know Lucas likes it because that's usually what myths and stuff are about. But I would have preferred it if he used myths as an inspiration and not as something of which all elements should be copied into the SW saga.

I agree on the prophecy thing being is a crappy thing, but when it is there and because of what Lucas said we have to go with that.
I would say Anakin is the chosen one cause after all it is he who has to make the final decision wetter to take on the Emperor. Luke was an aiding factor yes ,but still it was left up to Anakin/Vader alone to make that decision. And by doing so he forfilled the prophecy.

Well as I said, that IS the story of all six movies. I know, I know.

I think Luke did a much better job in resisting the Dark Side than Anakin did. Think of it, maybe just three months of Jedi Training and then up against the two biggest Dark Side bad asses ever!!! Talk about resistance. Good show, Luke!

well we dont know how far Anakin is being pushed nor of his resistance. And I think it was a bit more than three months of jedi training

Can't be too much more. But who knows. Anakin had some 12 years of Jedi training and some good morals in the 9 years he lived with his mom. Luke was always the sort of reject in his youth: no parents and dumped with his grumpy uncle. Anakin had everything: great loving mom, selected to get Jedi training even though he totally did not qualify, he gets a great chick... Heck, he did a lot better than Luke, I tell you that. Luke found out that THE girl in the movie to get is his friggin' sister.

Maybe it was the daughter part that finally tiped Vader to RETURN AS A JEDI

Even later on Luke is still lonely in the EU. He became a loner and the books started focusing more on different characters.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

NO!!!

EU!!!!

THIS IS ONLY FOR THE REAL STUFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
























hehehehehe j/k

"Laugh it up, fuzzball."

cause it is only for the real stuff ( FILMS)

Indeed.

It doesn't matter if Luke is a better PERSON- being the Chosen One is a matter of being born to it, not achieving it!

Yes, the imbalance does exist before TPM starts. The Sith are slowly destroying the balance of the Galaxy; when Anakin kills Palpatine, the source of thet imbalance is destroyed- and this was the purpose of the Chosen One. Simple as that.

I agree, however, that it is very obscure to call Anakin a good guy if the Emperor can only cause the imbalance with Anakin's help. I seem to my remember my analogy is that this is rewarding Anakin for burning down a forest and then planting a seed- better, surely, to not burn down the forest?

Therefore it only works if we assume that the Emperor would have won in any case and I am unsure if the films will demonstrate that. If the Emperor would have won anyway, then better that Anakin helps and then plants the seed, than Anakin doesn't help and achieves nothing. Better STILL, obviously, if Anakin had stopped the Emperor first, but then that is the point of the tragic story of the prequel films- Anakin consciously rejects this positive destiny, and only after all hope is lost does Luke get him to accept it again- better late than never.

A Chosen One is in my understanding someone with a destiny to achieve something, not just a title by birth. And I just can't see, despite the fact that I know this is the story, what GREAT ACHIEVEMENT Anakin did that he was a Chosen One for. Chosen for what? Chucking an Emperor down a shute who's too busy killing off e Jedi, who's old and quite overconfident? Or return from the Dark Side? The latter just doesn't appear to be such a great achievement ince Luke paved the way for him.
In my mind Luke's achievement is bigger and better. "It is your destiny."

It's just a difference in appraising Anakin's messianic status. From the Jedi religion POV I can understand the ramifications Anakin's turn from the Dark Side can have for the Force. But the VIEWER can't SEE the Force, can't FEEL it, so how can we possibly understand and appreciate what Anakin does at the end of ROTJ? This is why I believe the choice for having a Chosen One in SW is a bad one: he doesn't appear to be doing a great saving deed (even here there is debate about what BAlance of the Force is, how would an average viewer understand?) and his redemption has more an emotional impact on Luke: he has his father back before he dies. But the Force being unbalanced will remain to be vague. All we see is the rise of an Empire (by use of supernatural powers: Dark Side) oppressing the universe by the help of a Jedi gone bad. Ergo the challenge: defeat the Empire, make bad Jedi go good again.

Luke knew he had to have Vaders help in defeating the Emperor so he gamble on that Anakin would turn back

Your understanding makes no difference, queeq. The Chosen One is the one referred to by the Prophecy- you do not CHOOSE to be that one, you simply are CHOSEN to be that one, so youou cannot be anything but born to it. And that one in this case, is Anakin as, in GL's words, no-one else could have defeated the Emperor. The achievement is the former and, again, you are just going to have to live with that. GL says that is so so that is so- no-one else could have done it. Which every way you see or understand it, that is the story he has written.

Sometimes you just have to go with the flow with these things.
To summarise:

- Only the Chosen One can bring balance

- Balance can only be brought by destroying the Emperor

- Anakin is the Chosen One

- Therefore, only Anakin can defeat the Emperor

- Anakin does that, thereby fulfilling his destiny

- Luke effectively persuaded Anakin to do that, but it was still Anakin who had to do it

- That he went through the whole 'Vader' thing first is where the plot comes in, making it a story at all.

- That Anakin could not have done it without Luke is irrelevant. That Luke might be a better person is irrelevant. That Anakin failed where Luke succeeded is irrelevant. 'Chosen One' is not code for 'best person in the films', it ONLY means the one who can bring Balance! It does not mean the person who achieved the most or is the greatest hero or even, necessarily, the most important character. You may well see the person who got the Chosen One to do that as a greater hero. That's fine. You may even say that his destiny was greater than that of the Chosen One. That is also fine. But there is no point saying that he is the Chosen One as far as you see- it is not as if that would make him the better person. It's just factually not so, any more than his name is Robert.

Hey, I'm not arguing that Lucas' story is wrong here! How could it be. I am arguing that George made some poor decisions in his PT storytelling. And the basic problem is the whole prophecy thing. I agree wholeheartedly with that in a prophecy one is BORn to be a Chosen One. But that doesn't solve the problem what he is chosen for then. IN this case it's simple: to bring balance. But the problem is that the problem is unbalance of the Force is badly understood from the movies themselves, nor what it feels like to be in unbalance. All we know there's a bad Emperor that gives people a hard time. Well, from all the stories about bad Emperors not all need supernatural powers. So how does a viewer relate with both Anakin's destiny of bringing balance to the Force or with theway he achieves this goal? We don't see anything shifting into place in ROTJ, so as we SW freaks understand sort of what Lucas is on about, it takes quite a bit of behind the scenes reserach to understand what it's really about. And THAT is whatI am arguing against. Not to plot points being illogical, just to them not being very cinematic or even made clear.

OOOOKKKKKAAAAAYYYY????

THank you for listening!

Of course, is it not prejudicial to talk about how clear it is made in the PT before it is finished?

I really enjoy reading it when you two, er...debate. For someone like me it gives great views on things. In short-your arguments/debates are very informative. Ush, queeq

It's a long and old debate, Lyn. We're getting good at it.

this may have been said already but, couldn't it also mean that Anakin brought balance to the force by getting the jedi (at least on screen) down to two? Sidious and Vader, Yoda and Kenobi. Two masters, two apprentices. But I've also heard that the prophecy can only be full filled when the Sith are destroyed. This seemed odd since there will always be good and evil, even in the force. In which case, Anakin did this as well. He killed Palpatine and himself in the process.
on a side note, there was an issue of star wars tales (by no means in continutiy) where Mace and Yoda are having lunch in a Coruscant restaurant, discussing whether or not Anakin was the chosen one, and Yoda makes a really good point using piles of salt to show how it only takes a light breeze (meaning the slowly building tensions both in the force and galaxy at large) to move mountains. he then blows on the salt leaving only two grains, along with two he pulled out at the beginning to represent the sith. With the two pairs of grain he says "I don't want to be one of those two..."
Just kind of funny. But, two good and two evil would be technically balance.

No! Not Balance in that sense. Absolutely not. EVIL causes Balance. Only by destroying the Sith can balance be restored. Numbers of Jedi and all that have NOTHING at all to do with it. We already handled this in the thread- do not take the term 'balance' too literally.

By your logic it would not work- he leaves Luke and no Sith- hardly balance literal balance in the way you suggest. This demonstrates the fallacious nature of that thinking. To get balance you eliminate evil- you do not try and get the same numbers of Jedi and Sith or anything silly like that!

People have gotten it into their heads that Balance means equality between good and evil. It does not. It means the natural harmony of the Universe- which the Light Side promotes, and the Dark Side destroys.

I was supporting both arguements. You missed what I was saying, maybe I didn't put it right.
If balance means two sith and two jedi (which I don't agree with either, but if it does) then we know Anakin helped to facilitate this.
If balance means no Sith (which hopefully it does) then he did this also. He killed Sidious and Vader (in that Obi-wan kind of logic).
So my point is, either way, it is clear that Anakin is the Chosen One and not Luke. Luke assisted in this, but technically, so did many others. Yoda and Obi-wan helped Luke become a Jedi, training that helped him to aid his father's redemption. Who knows how many Jedi helped them to escape allowing them to assist Luke.
In short, it doesn't matter how it comes about or who helps them get there, the Chosen ONE is the one who, with there own hands, strikes down the Sith once and for all. Everything else is semantics. Who killed the Sith? Who dealt the deathblow? Anakin. 'Nuff said.

Well, that GL SAID it was Anakin pretty much settled that...

yeah...uh...that too. but that takes all the fun out of the debate

it never stops amazing me that this one is still open considering GLs comments on this

I can see that

Oh Good! Someone noticed...

everybody has their opinions...the powers that be here arent gonna be persuaded otherwise.

Right! Well, we might as well close this place then!

I guess we may as well ask if there is anything to be added to this, else it is done...

Or we can start over again... as usual.

Anakin fulfills the prophecy by slaughtering the Jedi. When ANH rolls around it's only Obi-Wan and Yoda, balanced by Vader and Palpatine. Luke's mission is to bring Anakin back to the force, this is the beginning of the end for the darkside as Luke becomes the most powerful Jedi ever and he will ***** slap and dark jedi or sith in his way.

bringing balance is NOT about there being as much jedi as sith, it's about there being NO sith

I might have to start putting up a sticky about these things.

The balance of the force refers to those who still know of the force and communicate with it. Vader and Emperor are the two who handle the dark while Obi-Wan and Yoda are the light.
Why do you think so many Jedi die?
Besides, even if sith aren't around, the darkside is still present and possibly more powerful so Anakin brings balance by destroying the jedi order.

ok... have you read the interview GL did around 2-3 years ago about the balance in the force?

there have been several, but refresh my memory?

it says that jedi create balance and sith disturb it

good point
regardless, Anakin is the one that brings balance, I dont' see why people still think Luke didit

cool