Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

or did we make him?

how are we supposed to know?

I can only talk about god when I am high.

sit down and concentrate

me too!!!

"God is dead and we killed him"
-Nietsche

(just translated it from dutch, so you'll say it probably different in english)

Marx's opinion of religion is simple: it is an illusion whose chief purpose is to provide reasons and excuses to keep society functioning just as it is. Religion takes our qualities - our highest ideals and aspirations - and alienates us from them, projecting them onto an alien and unknowable being called a god.
Religion is intoxicating like opium.

According to Sigmund Freud, religion is a form of mass neurosis and exists only as a response to deep emotional conflicts and weaknesses.
Also like Marx, religion (god) is an illusion.

But how do you define god?
- omnipotent?
- as a personal relationship?
- creator and sustainer of existence?
- transcendent and immanent?
- etc.

personaly I feel strongly that society, every society does it, made up God. Like said in the matrix: Hope it is the quintessential human dellusion simultaniously the source of our greatest strenght and our greatest weakness. I think you can place faith in the same category people can do great things when they believe in something but it is also one of our greatest weaknesses as history has shown.

Well, Marx said lots of things...

THIS debate could also get very nasty so please be careful.

True on both lines Ush
but I usualy agree with Marx

somebody has been studying, storm

but I do agree on most parts with marx about religion being nothing more then hope to get a better live (the hope of having a good live in heaven after getting kicked around in 'RL')

So yerss, Storm and Fire you guys say we made God.
Thats what I believe by the way. Ppl just created him to "feel" better. Hey we all need hope

that's why I'm here

The simple fact is no one will truly ever know untill we die. Everyone can debate and debate, but this gets noone anywhere. For every argument that can be contributed to eigther side Of eigther God or No God .there canl always be another argument made that will contridict or defy the previously made statment.

So whenever someone tells you they know there is no god then they are very ignorant, because no one knows. there is a scary fact that comes from religoun though, and this is the inspiration of other religouns from one belief. There are certain religouns out there that were created with no kind of substance or beliefs. It was started with nothing more than a good idea.

There has always been some type of believed religoun dating back as far as humanity knows. When people try and dissuade someone from a certain belief this is the most ignorant thing any one could ever do, because no one knows. The same goes for when people try and convince someone to practice a religoun. You shouldnt try and convince someone to devote there life on an idea.

saying that we can only know after we die, automaticly insinuates that there is a heaven, but on which grounds do you think there is one?
there are religions that say that after life everything is done and over, that there are no afterlives....


imho, it's also ignorant to say there IS a god, because also no-one knows if he DOES exist.

That is certainly not a very scientific point of view, Rages. By rationality the onus is to prove something DOES exist, not that it doesn't.

I'd like to add, of course, that that is not necessarily a dig at religion, which depends upon faith, which has little or nothing to do with scientific rationality, but it is unfair to call someone ignorant for requriing proof to believe that something exists.

Religion can be classified into one of two types: functional or substantive.
Accepting a substantive definition of religion means looking at religion as simply a type of philosophy, a system of bizarre beliefs, or perhaps just a primitive understanding of nature and reality. From the substantive or essentialist perspective, religion is all about trying to understand ourselves or our world and really has nothing to do with our social or psychological lives.

For those who focus on functionalist definitions, religion is all about what it does: if your belief system plays some particular role either in your social life, in your society, or in your psychological life, then it is a religion; otherwise, it's something else (like a philosophy). Examples of functionalist definitions include describing religion as something which binds together a community or which alleviates a person's fear of mortality.

Btw, I find Descartes' proof based on doubt very interesting and somehow it makes sense imo.

But you don't believe everything Descartes says, Storm, seeing as he mathematically proved that God existed.

And furthermore, his proof-through-doubt idea ended with him saying each person could only make two conclusions

1. That you yourself exist
2. That God exists.

So again, I doubt you follow that through. One always has to be careful with Descartes.

His proof of the existence of god is about cause and effect.
The problem is that the cause - god is perfect - did not came out of nowhere.

According to Descartes, everyone has the idea of a perfect god inside him- or herself. That idea is not ours since human beings are imperfect. So god himself (being perfect) has caused that idea.
But I' ve been told about god since I was little so the idea came from my parents, teachers,... therefore I can' t belief his proof. If I never had heard about god before and if I had that idea then I would have believed it.

3. That the world as we know it exists.

GOD has made everything ever created. HE IS THE ONLY1, THE SOUL CREATER OF THIS PLANET. THE REASON Y V R LIVIN IS BECAUSE OF HIM. HE HAS GIVEN US A TEST OF HOW V DO IN THIS LIFE. HE HAS NO PARTNERS, HE HAS NO SON! HE IS who i fear

Well, Descartes swore exactly that- that it was known to people who had never been told.

And he only concluded 3, Storm, BECAUSE of 2. He said God would not create an unreasonable world. Do not believe 2 and you cannot believe what he says about 3.

Were it not for that, Descartes concludes that only knowledge gained through reason, rather than sense, has any validity and even that, of course, can be questioned.

But he WOULD say that- he was a mathematician. Like I say, one has to be careful with Descartes- very clever, but oh so slightly nutty.

Incidentally, I don't think Descartes would have believed your refutation either. He would have told you that your teachers and parents could only have told you an imperfect idea. The perfect idea which he says you know could not have come from any human source.

And he really did say he had proven God's existence with maths...

I know he concluded 3 BECAUSE of 2.
slightly nutty

Hmmm. This is all quite interesting. I actually do believe in God and Jesus and all that. But I definately don't fit into what you would call a typical "Christian" or "fundamentalist" system of belief. I'm not really sure I want to get too involved in this discussion, though. Like Ush said, it could turn bad. I don't have a problem discussing these things, but I also don't feel that anything I say or do will change anyone else's mind. I'm certainly not going to try to force anything I believe on any of you.

Yeah, moist people quietly shelve that bit when talking Descartes. Up to thatr, his proof-through-doubt thing is, as you say, very interesting.

But trying to philosophically prove the existence of God is always a dead duck. You can only debate the merit or otherwise of faith, not whether it is justified or not.

So quoting all these ppl is cool but what do YOU think?
Storm and Ush.

jumi>>> I also don' t have the intention to force anything on anyone nor changing anyone else' s mind. It' s just very interesting to discuss.

and I meant juli

I really don;t want to get involved with the debate with my own opinion, Kes, though I am always happy to talk about off-shoots.

Exactly. And, you know, my views change over time, as my perspective of life and the world around me changes. I think most of us grow up being "taught" something by our parents - either in their words or actions - about what they believe concerning God, afterlife, etc. But as we get older, and have our own "life experiences", we really develop our own ideas. Of course, I think we are all still influenced continuously by others - be it teachers, friends, other family members, the media, books, etc. - even these forums! But I still don't have any desire to perpetuate my beliefs here.

I agree

well everyone already knows my idea's about religion and god

Simple question: Do you believe in God or not?
Simple answer: Yes or no. Theres no need to go further and nobody is going o enforce ones point of view.

Very naive, Kes. I have seen this get very nasty before. I have already told YOU, anyway. By principle I do not think it is a great idea to discuss it and I would be hypocritical to say that and then declare either way.

hmm some ppl just dont want to talk about that kinda thing

Yeh I know it can get nasty.

as long as everyone behaves it won't turn nasty

true but with so many ppl and so many variables it's hard to make sure of that

follow the rules and keep it decent ... isn't THAT hard to respect others and their opinions, no?

for some it isn't for others it is as has been nicely demonstrated in the past

it will get nasty if I say what I really feel about religion, any of them

go ahead finti

........nah

we need a new impuls in this discussion...

*prays for Finti's soul*

I have no soul

i believe in god and the whole creation story

great posts guys

i agree with the masses,on this thread anyway...

i believe there isn't a "god" or "supremem being"

so let me ask this...

if god does exist,then where did "it" come from and what is "its" purpose for creating us

i would say amusement

I don't know and I think that's even harder to debate than the existence of God.

"It'' created us so "it" can watch us suffer. "It" is really sadistic..

yeah, i would like that discussion.

if god created us, who created god?

chicken and the egg??

same discussion??

food for thought.

and if god is the creator and ruler, why is he doing it? whats the point?

lets not talk about specific religion per say, just about where it (god/creation/universe/before god?) started...this cant be argued because no one knows or has even theorized about it.

might be interesting to hear some "opinions"

duh einsteins

i'm talking about our own opionions


i'm not out to prove anything

if there isn't a god...then our existence in meaningless

let alone the question itself

i didnt read all this stuff but i think we did make god because if there realy is a god why the hell does he not listen to me i mean we are his creations and he sopposed to help our lives right? im probably wrong since i dont pay attention to religions (i dont go to curch thank god) when i do go i dont listen i only go with my grandperents i just think heard my mom get off the phone with my grandmom and they had a religion argument and my mom came up with good points like my grandmom always locks the door when a mexicon or black person walks by trying to make money and alot of ppl who go to church dont respect other ppls religon and thats just wrong that doesnt show u have compassion that shows u are a big bubble head ideot that cant respect others beleafs and if ur like that u should burn in hell (if there is one)

"(i dont go to church thank god)"

thats has GOT to be the funniest thing I have read allll day!! hehe

thanks

yeah, no church for me either. I don't "need" the extra support. I feel as if I am in total control of my life and haven't a need for external support.

but who knwos when I have kids...hehe

I'm personally not big on organized religion. It's caused too much chaos in the world.

hmm, care to explain that a bit further BF?

Well, wars, death, terrorist acts. Lots of them have stemmed from a persons belief in God and the assumption of what said God wants.

God didn't make us because he doesn't exist....we made him...good topic darth hater

True, but is it the fault of the religion that some ppl interrupt their writings in a certain way

No, it's not. But if such stupid people believe in something, then i can't bring myself to believe in that same thing.

That is indeed one of the most vigorously conditional statements I have ever seen! Plenty to be attacked there!

hmm it is not cause some idiot interrupts something a certain way that you can't interrupt it in a better way

Yes, I know. They just aren't for me.

well I agree with ya, never did like organised religion I take parts from every religion I can find to make my own mix

Yeah, well to answer the question on the topic....Since I use logic to define my beliefs, and most logic points at their not being a god. It's hard for me to believe in one. I can't help but wonder why the world is so crappy if there was an all powerful being who could have made it better.

I think there is no god, Or god has an extremely messed up sense of humor

the fact that you think there is no god proves that there is none.

Maybe god made the world and didn't care anymore from that day on.
I always think it's weird how ppl say there can't be a god cause there is suffering in the world.

Couldn't it be that god thinks we should clean up our own mess. when you have a kid you ain't gonna wipe its ass when it's 28

Sure, that makes sense.

thx

Yeah, and the question I always wonder is 'where did we come from?'

God or no god, it had to all start somewhere. I find it hard to believe that 'we were always here' or 'God was always here' . . . .

I dig the evolution idea, but where and how did it all start? You can't create something out of nothing, right? Did the universe start from gasses? Well, where did the gasses come from? It blows my mind.

You could get intgo computational theory. In the beginning there were two states, one and one different from that one.

And then it all kinda spilled out from there...

Well TH I believe there is some form of life energy which consists out of a pool, and every living being is contected to that pool, when it dies it's energy returns to that pool, and that pool made the universe, but it didn't make any planets evolve or so it just, as you said started it all

Still, that is creation out of nothing. The two states must have come from somewhere. And the pool of energy had to have an origin. Or, maybe my biggest mistake is the thinking that something can't come from nothing. Maybe there is no such thing as nothing, that blows my mind even more.

No it isn't creation from nothing.. The two states are what ARE. You are probably closer saying there is no such thing as nothing.

I like that.

TH people have asked that for ages..."whats beyond that and then that and so on and so on" it's like an infinite number we can keep asking that question forever. Same thing with like atoms..whats smaller than that? well neutrons, electrons, and protons..but then what's smaller than that...(they actually have found something smaller now) and soon they'll find somehting even smaller than those, and so forth..it never can end.

They found smaller things than those ages ago, 113!

Computational Theory, that I just hooked TH to, says that the bottom layer is 'bits'- either the equivalent of 1s and 0s, or of a 'pure difference' between one state and another, and that the combinations of this make up every other fundamental we have ever found. All coming from the two original states.

..never heard of it, is it like binary code or something 1's and 0's ?

Errr, kinda. It's a fashionable high-end physics theory. Metaphysics as well, at that.

Well yeah, but people have been asking the title of this thread as well for ages yet we are still discussing it.

Kinda reminds me of Final Fantasy IV: The Spirits Within.

Fanatsy is another good word for religion

couldn't agree more

One thing i dont understand. is why people are disuaded from believing GOD because all of the suffering in the world. The reason thereis suffering in the World is because of choice. GOD gave us choice.
choice. Choice to do with our lives what we please, Choice is the greatest gift to be given aside of life. We as people have to learn to live in harmony. It is not God' fault that there is suffering. It is our fault as a humanity. Assuming there is a GOD

A while back I made a statement that if you claim to know if there is for a fact a GOD or not then you are ignorant. ...UsH you stated "it is unfair to call someone ignorant, for asking for proof" I never called anyone ignorant for searching for proof, i siad you would be ignorant for assuming to know an answer to somthing that there is no proof to.
Of course there is nothing wrong with striving for unkown answers. This is the human way. However when people start bashing comments to others that there is hno way there could be a GOD, or when people on the other side of the argument bash that there is no way there couldnt be a GOD this makes for a very unstable way of living. It even inspires hate to the highest levels.

I just merely meant to say that maybe everyone should realize and agree on that NO one knows for sure and we will never know , short of a second comming or a trip to heaven. I think the world would a better place if we could agree on this. It would allow independant studies on each side of the spctrum. This way we could live our lives with out religous enduced riots or streets clogged with anit - or pro religous protests. maybe even save a few lives. But the day the entire world agrees on anything is the day we wont need religoun

"A while back I made a statement that if you claim to know if there is for a fact a GOD or not then you are ignorant. ...UsH you stated "it is unfair to call someone ignorant, for asking for proof" I never called anyone ignorant for searching for proof, i siad you would be ignorant for assuming to know an answer to somthing that there is no proof to. "

Nope, sorry, if you cannot prove something exists you are entitled to say it does not without being called ignorant. It is not their job to prove he does not, it is the job of others to prove he does. It is basic principle.

there is no proof that a higher being does not exist. it is all only specualtion. specualtion on both sides. There is no proof on where humans came from . Only theories. Evolution is the biggest one, but evolution is still not a solid explaination. There is deffaintly no solid explaination of where existence began. So untill you give solid proof of where humans or even existence game from. The fact that there is a GOd or a higher being is just as acceptable than theories that we came from monkeys or a big boom from elements that no one can prove where they came from

Theories are based on evidence. There is nothing but hypothesis about God.

There is absolutely no way at all in which any hypothesis about God is equal to any scientific theory about creation. Sorry, that is the way it is. it is futile to equally compare the two.

Which is why I still massively refute your accusations of ignorance. That in itself seems to be an ignorant ideal of what ignorance is and how science works.

Believing in God is about Faith- NOT proof.

your missing my point any way. I mean that people who say they KNOW there is no GOD are ignorant. No one knows. i dont mean just because you disagree with the theory of God your ignorant. Just when you claim to know somthing there is no proof to. You can say i believe in this ,but not that you know

Again, there is no 'Theory' of God, that would require verifiable evidence.

And if there is no evidence for something you are entitled to say it does not exist.

The rational world vs. the world of faith is not normally a good mix.

However, any good scientist would always be open to the idea that later discoveries will change his current certainties, of course.

hmm..i agree ush, but the whole argument of god and his/her/its existance is pretty pointless, cos i cant prove it to you that it doesnt exist, and you cant prove it to me that it does!

Just because we dont see something it doesnt mean its not there....
its like conciencesness(sp) we cant touch it or smell it or taste it, but we all know its there....

I dont necesseraly believe in God....but im just saying that belivers and non believers cant prove to each other one or the other...

ok speaking scientifically. There is no solid proof of where humanity begun, or even existence. It is all still only specualtion, Aside the fact there is no evidence that we came from monkeys. For just about every theory that supports evolution. There is a question that leaves the thoery in a slalmate.

You say that the theory of evolution and faith cannot be debated on the same level of scientific proof. I disagree with this because there is no scientific proof of where humanity came from. Evolution is still a THEORY. there is no scientific proof to confirm evolution. I know you mean to say that relgoun cannot be an acceptable argument due to the lack of logic, but to me when no one can offer a scientific explaination of where we came from. I bleieve creationilism to be just as relevant as evolution. I myself believe in God without a doubt , but i believe there is still a possibility we could have came from evolution through the will of a higher being. I still cant see how religoun and evolution are seen as two totally different beliefs in the scientific world, when there is no proof on eigther side

thats what i think bitchiness

Who are you refering to? me?
if its me, that u missunderstood a bit....all i was saying is that neither party can prove that God exist or doesnt exist!

oh right..i posted mine before i read yours...sorry

I don't know i God made us, but I grew up by myself.

better be ignorant than naive

guess some were right, some just can't discuss in a propper way

actually ignorance is in the same category of being naive

it doesn't matter, now please keep to the discussion

ok im curous to get opinions on this question.

Many people say that religoun is the main cause for the most wars, and killings in all of history. It may be true that killings and wars were inspired by religoun, but do you believe it is the fault of the message of religoun. Or is it the fault of humanities miss interpertation, and weak willed being?

hmmm, well, IMHO, it's not the message as most religions wants peace and all, it's humans who go too far

yeah that is what think. I really think it is the miss interpertation, beause there are many civilizations who kill defending there religoun, and they believe this is justified in there beliefs. When it isnt.

well think of it this way... all the other religions have only been able to find many gods instead of beleiving that only ONE God could everything. Now this is a humanistic belief, we believe that one being could do everything, it just doesn't make sense to us. So we made something that made since to us... we made gods... hence the egyptians, greeks, roman, and many more. We made a god for everything. < think about that.

Now going from what the Bible says, God created everything, just one God, God created us, because he is the only being that knows exactly how we came into existence, atleast without making an educated guess.

Think about this, if you have any argument, or anything like that feel glad to pm me

i understand what your saying. In the past Gods were replaced with sciene. Whole civilizations believed this. It wasnt like today where some believe a God and some believe in sciene. Thousands of years ago every one believed in Gods over science, and it was because they couldnt explain how the world worked. Then other civilizations who worshiped other religouns came along and said " this is wrong, what you believe in isnt right, you have to believe in this God" this is what would start wars and mass killings. Or atleast one of numerous reasons. it was all done in the name of God, but it was directly going against what there religoun teached. So how can people who claim to be disciples of there religoun over look this?

cause mostly the people in charge in a religion (atleast those that follow a pyramide like structure) controle what the base of the religion knows about it and more importantly, the Catholic Church in the medieval days is a nice example, it controles how that is interpreted by the base believers

To me religion and relationship are two different things. Religion being a "form" that is followed whether in ceremonies, rituals, methods of "worship", etc. that can be taught or imposed on others. Relationship simply being knowing and communicating with God. However, if you don't believe in the existence of God, then you wouldn't believe I could have a relationship with Him. Therefore, just my belief in God alone would probably constitute some form of "religion" to you. So, I don't know if this line of thinking is helpful here or not.

im not sure if this has been discussed yet or not, as i came in at the end of the conversation however, yers> Neitsche was refering to the fact that humanity has come to believe that they do not need God anymore, thus, humanity has killed him...I believe in God, and, as i know this is a sore subject with many people, i'm not gonna call anyone ignorant, idiotic, moron, etc. because they believe something differing than my belief...I do believe that Religion has had a major part in causing most of the wars on this feeble planet, but not because of the WORD, but because of the INTERPRETATION, or misinterpretation...also, the reinterpretation of the word...

True HDm

i still think we created god beacause realy i mean is there realy a guy up there watching over us and helping us in our lives i mean cmon thats almost like the belief in magical creatures so my point is that i think we created god because if he created us why doesnt he tell us that ppl believe if u talk shit bout god u will get punished pppppphhhhhhhhh ya right i talk shit bout god all the time my life is just fine ( let me state that i am probably insane im not sure i like realy get hiper sometimes so i cant tell oh and i imagine this girl at my school who is the biggest retard i have ever seen and shes one of those girls that talks in a realy high pitch voices and she uses those lame come backs like "why dont u" or "shut up" well back on topic i imagine me geting a shot gun and putting it to her temple the rest i know u can figure out ) ok now i know i might have made some strong statements but plz i dont feel like aswering shit head insults. bye

i know its a little wird but u can figure it out if u re-read it

er... not everyone if they believe, believes that god is "up there and watching over us"
some believe he's everyone on earth, in the form of helpfull people

realy i didnt know that ya see i dont know didly squat bout religon

So God calls to Adam and says, "Adam, I have some good news and some bad news. What do you want to hear first?"
Adam replies, "The good news."
God answers, "Well, the good news is I gave you a penis and a brain."
Then Adam says, "OK, so what's the bad news?"
And God says, "I only gave you enough blood to operate one at time."

Just some humor

thats great yo, good to see your keeping true to your name

http://www.philosophyquotes.net/cgi-bin/god_game1.cgi?num=0&hits=0&bullets=0&bulletcount=0&hitcount=0


This is a very insightfull test

sorry can a mod please move this to OF_TOPIC please

lol not that easy, it just becomes complicated with all the "big" words and stuff

yeah i know lol
i had to read it a couple of times to get the hang of it

well I got through it fairly ok, I survived with two bitings of bullets

woah!! Coolness!!

You took zero direct hits and you bit 1 bullets. The average player of this activity to date takes 1.39 hits and bites 1.11 bullets. 177026 people have so far undertaken this activity.

nice lil

debating god is pretty hard, I don't like it too much, I much rather debate actual problems

Im proud of that!! Thanks Fire!!

no prob lil, hey you did better than me, that's good

nah just kidding debating god isn't my thing cause I dunno if he exists or not

bit one bullet, didn't got hit ... darn, I hoped for a nice massacar

Couldnt have put it better myself!

I got 1 direct hit and bit 1 bullet. I was awarded the 'TPM medal of distinction'.
I think about this kind of thing a lot... I'm wierd that way...

Took one direct hit, bit 3 bullets.

Although I must say the wording of the questions makes it difficult to answer

Really? I didn't think so

i think the test had some points but it also had a few holes,(theroy&gt of course god would not want suffering, but they cant say does he have the power to reverse sin and morals wicth i said he did, and then say i cant make up my mind. becuase i did not see the answer for were god could but would never do that.

Well the idea behind it is that nothing, not even god (if there is a god which I think there is) is all-powerful. There are some things that just are, and could not be any other way. Like the sin and morality thing--even if there was no god, certain things would still be right and other things would be wrong. Therefore, once you add a god into the picture, he/she doesn't have the ability to change that. But, right vs. wrong depends a lot on perception--for example when Hitler came into power, he taught the Germans that the Jews were evil, and they believed him. Most people now, however, don't think Jews are evil. Still though I think right and wrong still exist, just not totally in black and white.

Okay, I retook the test, paying careful attention to exactly what the questions were asking. After answering more truthfull from my standpoint, I took no direct hits, and bit one bullet

I took one direct hit only.

*waits for a nurse*

I hope Saucybird007 puts you down.

hehe

what down exactly

The bible tells us!!

http://www.philosophersmag.com/images/madeit.gif

You have reached the end!

Congratulations! You have made it to the end of this activity.

You took zero direct hits and you bit 1 bullets. The average player of this activity to date takes 1.39 hits and bites 1.12 bullet. 206547 people have so far undertaken this activity.

Battleground Analysis
Congratulations!
You have been awarded the TPM medal of distinction! This is our second highest award for outstanding service on the intellectual battleground.

The fact that you progressed through this activity without being hit and biting only one bullet suggests that your beliefs about God are internally consistent and well thought out.

A direct hit would have occurred had you answered in a way that implied a logical contradiction. The bitten bullet occurred because you responded in a way that required that you held a view that most people would have found strange, incredible or unpalatable. However, because you bit only one bullet and avoided direct hits completely you still qualify for our second highest award. A good achievement!

Ow, I had a direct hit and a bullet... I guess I also misunderstood some of the questions, the weird sentence structure made it a little hard to understand

I usually don't like discussions about god and related topics, but this one was really interesting