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I made myself think of this in another discussion but who do you think will come out on top between these heroes. Again, I like these two characters so much, I hate to choose one over the other.

Wolverine is a real ferocious brawler with adamantium skeleton,claws,a healing factor and hightened senses

Batman is a self made hero who committed himself to be trained to learn various styles of fighting, has a lethal mind,an awesome selection of devices, he is a peak physical athelete and has will and determination like no other.

I can see this going a few different ways but i'd like o here what everyone else thinks.

It's hard to say... sometimes they write wolverine like he's Batman... he is occasionally a master of all martial arts styles, this that and the other...

Batman is more resourceful and, arguably, quicker than Wolverine, who has a slightly longer reach. There's too much chance that Batman will get tagged by some claws. Batman may just be plain out better (Batman is better than Captain America, who is on par with Wolvie) but Wolverine doesn't need much leeway.

Batman would need some time to figure out how to beat him cause of his healing factor but i think wolverine could take him after a very long, hard fight. It would be very close.

This is not fair. I like them both and I hate to see them both loose. Batsie would have no piknick here, Wolvie's adamantium makes him resistant to many of Batsies moves. But the Bat knows how to hunt animals so Wolvie would have to think himself to death on how to bring the Bat down also.

Wolvie is fast, swift and very strong. Has an animal instinct with killing.

The Bat is strong, also fast and very resorseful. He would have to take this fight to another level just to get past the adamantium. Some stun granades and potions don't work on Wolvie, so he would have to figure something out. He would have to disrupt Wolvies senses and then they can fight.

I'm not picking between these two, I'm just saying that it would be cool to watch them fight.

Long time ago when Batman wore a trade mark grey suite with robin saying such crazy phases as "Holy Cow!" and so on. i would put him as a formidable Opponent for the classic wolverine. Even when Tim Burton changed the caped crusader to black rubbered val kilmer he would of taken some battling before he lost. but ever since joel schumacher batman became a second rate hero will he regain his former glow?! I hope so! but at the mo wolverine Takes the Bat easy still woud of been close!

Very good points. Wolvie does have a good reach,a healing factor and the adamantium skeleton so Batman will definitely have to step his game up.

Why do we have to choose between these two anyway, it's so hard and my thick brain can't handle it!!

I'd say Wolverine would have the advantage of endurance due to his healing factor so Batman would have to take him out quickly.

I have seen Wolverine get stunned before, it probably takes more than the average jolt though. With all the devices Bats has, he could make Wolverine feel like he's in the danger room

Hey i think i've asked this before but how did that dark claw character happen? I mean how was it created?

Pick the darkest most vigialant Bat of the crop and that's our Bat. Please don't blaim us Batfans for the Schumacher fiasco

He is a result of the Marvel and DC universe colliding in battle. They were put to a test by gods of both universes(can't remember their names). Both universes literally had to fight for their existance.

There was a draw so both universes merged

WOW really? Who merged with who? I can see Captain america and superman but i can't tell who the others in that pic are.

There are sooooooo many......

Iron man Green & Lantern

Wonder Woman & Storm

Creeper & Nightcrawler

Bruce Wayne Agent of S.H.I.E.LD.

Spider-Man and Superboy

Dr Strangefate

and a host of others..........................

Nice image To save you the trouble of typing every merged character do you know a website where i could find out?

http://www.geocities.com/theamalgam/cross.html

Best link I can find right now, i'll see if I can find another later

I think Wolvi would win if he can keep his head clear. He's been trained in various martial arts, and was in the black ops so he knows how to use tactics (though not as well as Bats). I guess Wolverine's biggest advantatge is that he can just keep going and going. Bat's can stun him, but eventually Wolvi will recover, Bats can set up ambushes and traps, but I think Wolvi's own experience and or animal instict would be able to get him out or lower the damage any trap would cause down so it'd have no real affect.

I know Wolvi isn't invicible, but I find it really hard to find a way Bats could kill him if Wolvi is fighting back. I think eventually Bats would take a hit, which would lead to another which would eventually lead to him dying. But thats only if Bats stayed and fought, I think Bats could draw the fight out by attacking and then retreating. Bat is capable of more mobility and as the vehicals to get away should things start to go wrong so he could try again.

Come on, these are heroes we're talking about. I never said anything about killing. I could see Wolvie trying to slice Batman into shreads but I can't see Batman even attempting to Kill Wolverine. Wolvie can be stunned and all Bats would need to seize the victory is a moment where Wolvie's mind isn't clear(like when he goes into a berzerker rage).

I'd love to see this fight then maybe see them team up to fight Sabertooth and Bane.........now that would be awesome.

this is a good match. Both sides are pretty much evenly matched. I think though Wolverine takes the victory in this case. Batman is the greatest hero when it comes to overcomming great odds. He has always been superb at figuring out a way to bring overwhelming foes to his level. Woleverine fights on batman's level. He relies soley on physical attributes, and reaction time. Batman has the forsight, and intelligence. However this would be a battle that would be settled through fighting abilities, and physical capabilities. Batmans intelligence may be an advantage in some way, but wolverine has the upper hand on fighting tactics. Batman has his gadgets, wolverine has his indestructible claws, healing factor, and adamantium plated skeleton.

Batman wouldnt be able to endure punching steel for very long,and he wouldnt be able to risk getting to close to wolvies claws for to long he would have to resort to other means of fighting. This is where his intelligence comes to play, however wolverine may not be the brightest bulb on the tree, but he has fought some of the most brilliant villians around, so he would be able to deduce,and fight through what batman could throw at him for a little while. Pretty much everything that batman can do, he couldnt do when fighting wolverine. It would turn out to be a bar knuckled braw. It batman could incoorperate his martial arts training, and stay clear minded he may be able to pull it off, but what gives wolverine the victory hands down is two words (BESERKER BARAGE ) when wolverine goes beserker NO ONE is safe.

Lol, very nicely put. And u reminded me of teh Berserker move, lol, too fun to watch. He cuts through anything he touches, collateral damage everywhere. The most fun I have watching Wolvie fight is when he takes on more then 5 goons. He leaves no survivors. Pure animal kill. That is what I miss in Batsie. The Bat brakes bones and slaps ppl arround. He lacks a bit of that Berserker action. It would be cool to see The Bat go Berserk on ppl.

yeah seeing wolverine on a pile of bloody stupms that were ounce humans is always a nice sight.

Hey batman went on a berserker of his own a couple times in the dark knight but no where near wolvie's rage

Yeah, Daywalker posted a pic where Batsie went bad. Reddish eyes, ethics out the window, nice change for the Bat. We need some of that in a movie. Why don't they make him more Japanese, more crude, blood and guts everywhere. Make the Batman into a real blood thirsty Bat.

Have u guys seen Devilman? Well is u have then u know that extreme violence is the key of that anime. Ok, in the revision of The Devilman the drawing got much better and detail went off the chart. Well that drawing of Devilman can be reformed and make a nice manga Batman out of it. I'll try and draw up and idea and if I make something worth showing u guys will be the first to know.

naw ive never seen it, is it good? i need some more anime to check out. im waiting for angel 8 to make its way to the states

This fight is dependent not on the fighters themselves, but on the surrounding circumstances. Say that they just ran into eachother and with no prior knowledge of each other. Wolverine wins hands down. Yes Batman trained himself to be one of the greatest fighters in the DC universe, but he's not even the best. Shiva, Batgirl, and I forget his name right now, but anyway, the aforementioned in a straight up fight would beat Batman. People always give Wolverine credit due to his Berserker rage, but he is an outstanding fighter. In all honesty, it's been a few years since he's even been forced to do that. Plus, at the end of the day, Batman doesn't kill. It is a character attribute that makes him who he is, but Wolverine has absolutely no problem on cutting someone's lifeline.
Now if they have common knowledge of each other, the scale is tipped in Batman's favor. He is the world's greatest detective after all. If Batman has ever decided to study you, the fight is won before it is even fought. No one can beat him under these circumstances. Look at the Dark Knight Returns and DK2. He beat Superman like a red-headed stepchild. It was so bad that you couldn't help but laugh. With preparation, Batman can incapacitate anyone.

You make alot of valid points Rages but as far as fighting tactics go, I really don't see Wolverine being superior in this area although he is an excellent fighter. Batman has fought many opponents weilding all sorts of weapons so I don't think Wolverine's claws will be as big of a threat as everyone thinks although they will be quite the edge for Wolvie.

Batman's ego will probably lead him to try Logan man to man but if that doesn't work, i'm sure he'll begin thinking about more of a way to outsmart him.

Oh yeah, the famous bezerker barage, Batman will have to steer clear of that at all cost if he expects to win.

Yeah, Batman has too much restraint and he has soooooo much wicked potential. Ethics may have to go out the window when he meets Wolverine.

I haven't seen Devilman but i've seen plenty of great anime filled with loads of gore(can't beat it) I loved the ninja Scroll.

I like your analysis on the detective side of Batman but he's also a quick study of his advesaries so don't take him too lightly in your first scenerio.

I know Logan has a serious killer instinct where Batman vows never to take a life but that doesn't stop Batman from incapacitating or hurting his opponent.

Remember, this isn't necessarily to the death (well maybe if Logan gets pissed enough), the fight can be won simply bu putting your opponent down and Batman is good at this.

Hehe, I remember Ninja Scroll I watched it like 16 times. Very nice fight scenes, and the hero gets pretty hurt also . I saw Kill Bill the first volume, and it's made really with strict Japanese anime scenes. The fight between Lucy and Uma is fully Mangatized. The scenario for the fight scene is beautiful. The slow paces of the opponents on the fresh snow, total concentration, Uma has the right grip on her sword, Lucy is ready and cocky. Fast slashes r thrown, one is down. Again blood on the fresh snow. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!
Pity that they made that big fight scene in black and white. I will get the Japanese version and watch it all in color. I hate being deprived of something just because of some market rules.

I think Wolvie's animal instincts he has during fights would keep him from taking the brunt of a trap attack and make him unpredicable. I've read several comics in which foes use their intelligence to lure Wolvie into a trap and Wolvie walk right into it, but through pure fighting skills, rage, and instict manages to turn the tables on his opponent. Plus he'd ware Bats down with his superior endurance.

Hello All,


I am new, yes.

Keep in mind that Batman is a master tactician. He would bea ble to keep away form the claws for a bit and once he realized(if he didn't know already) that he would not be able to physically hurt Wolverine he would break contact. Provided he did not have something in his bag of tricks already.
Wolvy can be knocked out by concussive blast, gas.
If bats was not already carrying what he needed he could get away and go get what he needs and formulate the strategy, plans within plans. He is a genius.

Although he would not be able to take veyr long because Logan would sniff him out and head to wayne manor.

Ultimately I think Batman would draw Wolverine right where he needs him to be and trap him. Wolvy is viscious and powerful but just not smart enough.


thanks.

Well said

WOOHOO!! Dark Claw again!!!

You get the best of both worlds with Dark Claw so how can you go wrong?

I'm actually startin to like batman a little!! Batman and wolvie together is real cool. Better than them both fightin each other.

Alittle? well that's a start Yeah, Batman and Wolverine are two formidable characters and i'd rather see them team up rather than fight eachother although a small scuffle would be nice.

Mind over muscle any day.

With the resources of Bruce Wayne, Batman might actually just need to use his fingers to use robots, and other cool gadgets.

I would love to see batman totally outfight Wolvie. Since Wolverine is all animal instnct and strength(depending on who is writing) Id like to see batman finesse him. They fight and wolvie who always swings for the fences can't put a scratch on Bats because he's just too good.

The he uses some jiu jitsu and joke Woverine until he passes out.
Chain him up and return him to Prof X at the school with a note to stay out of Gotham.

Remember the only way u can actually kill logon is by using adamantium and i dont think hes gonna sit and wait for batman to get some, so i say that wolverines the winner of this fight.

what?! Wolverine isn't an adamantium werewolf! He can die by conventional means like ripping out his vital organs, suffocate him, or dip him in acid. I highly doubt Batman would be able to get Wolverine in a choke hold that wouldn't leave Batman open for a claw attack. And Wolverine is supposed to be highly adept at martial arts too. It would be a good fight without the claws, but it would be Batman's smarts and not his physique that wins him this fight.

A batman vs. wolverine movie would be sooo fuc*in' cool. it could star val kilmer and Hugh jackman or mark hamill (Who played wolvrine in wolverines revenge.).

That's true, but I thought we covered that allready. Good point LInkalicious, ppl don't read all the runts upon this matter so they write anything that comes to their mind. We all agree that it would be a great fight and that Batsie would maybe make it if he gets past Wolvies adamantium. Batsie doesn't want this to be a too close range fight cuz Wolvie has a pretty good reach. Like Daywalker said it wold be great to see them team up

Everyone keeps saying kill, you don't have to kill someone to defeat them ya know? Batman would only knock him out somehow. Batman will never kill, he might hurt you really bad but he's not gonna kill.

Wolverine can be knocked out like any regular person (blow to the head,shock,gas etc) but it just wouldn't be as fatal and he may not be out as long as the average person.

That's why I like Wolverine, he has cool powers but he's not all powerful and he's not invincible.

Even without the powers wolverine is still a match for batman. Wolverines a samurai who trained in various styles of martial arts in japan for ages and he fought in world war two along side captain america before he got the claws and his weapon x training. Thats a lot of experience and it would work to his advantage. I know batman is a trained martial arts fighter but when it come to experience i think wolvies got the upper hand.

Even if all that is true(which depends on who is writint he comic apparently)Sometimes Wolvy is a total Puss.

He Does not have the analytical and tactical mind Batman does. I would even allow that wolvy is more than a match physically for batman(reluctantly).
He is not a match mind to mind.

Daywalker thats an Awesome pic of the BAT. Where'd you get it???

Wolverine, a puss? What gave you that idea? Wolverine has over 100 years of experience. Wolverine does have a tactical mind, he needed one to get through the war and his still has one now. When the beserker rages happen though, thats when his tactical mind is lost.

I was referring to how he is sometime portrayed by some writers. Some just write him as a Animalistc brawler. I really hate that. In the movie, in the cartoons they alway have him just swinging away with no technique like he just got the claws last week and just want to trash stuff with them.
He should be portrayed as more technically proficient. As I said physically I think maybe he could take Batman. But after breathing in some sleeping gas or getting a shock from a concussive grenade or a sonic burst, he'd be out and bats would just scoop him up with out so much as a second though.

Like in Indiana Jones when that guy started swinging that sword around and he just pulled out the gun and shot him.

Simple, efficient. Thats batman.

I totally agree with you on that.

All those weapons though, don't tell me he's got all of them in his belt? It should be a bare knuckle fight to a K.O. No weapons allowed. That would be a much better fight.

Does that mean no Claws too?

And BTW, yes he does. I can make a concussion gredage from household stuff, no bigger than a baseball.

Hmm should I have admitted that?

No you shouldn't. Shhhhh...no one will notice.
Yeah that means wolverine can't use his claws.

Wolvie without using the claws makes damage with his knuckles as well. So still batsie better know that is someone hits u with an iron plate on the face it isn't gonna feel good. I agree that some writers have gone below Wolverines real image, and I agree also that in both movies they haven't made him a master of a 1to1 fight. They made him look great in brawls though. That is the trick in the comic Wolverine is much better portrayed in 1to1 battle then in the movies. In the comic he teaches some other gifted guys the arts of a samurai. Now that doesn't make him the smartest one on the block, but it does show u that he ain't stupid when it comes to fighting. It would make a great fight between them, and I can't say that one would be more victorious over the other, just that they would both stop for a minute to catch their breath, many times.

Spawnie

Now that would be cool as hell.

No Weps just skill Vs. Skill

I wish we could actually contact the bozos at Marvel and DC sometimes. Or they should keep an ear to the ground on boards like this to sse what the real fans think.

but spawnie that would kinda make you wonder....if Bats punched Wolvie really hard is the head....wouldn't it hurt Batman's hand?

No weapons was my idea......maybe i should copyright it so those greedy comic book peeps can't get there hands on it. That will give them a taste of their own medicine.

With the healing factor and the adamantium cranium, Batman would have to choke him out or use some special pressure point stuff to knock him unconscious.

I think Batsie would need some special padding in his gloves so he could at least keep his fists in one piece. But u know that the Bat is gonna keep hitting no matter the injury. He needs to protect his fists otherwise he ain't gonna last for long. Wolvie doesn't have a glass jaw so to slow him down u need to puncture him and while he is healing factor is working he is a bit more vulnerable for a few seconds. Mind me saying a few seconds cuz his H factor is uncharted. Wolvie's best fights were with Sabertooth and Cyber, well that is all that I have seen, and these fighters are extremly strong.

The Bat should plate his chest and gloves for this one. Take out a new Bat suit for this fight, cuz he needs more power to knock Wolvie out. Maybe if he lands a 300 pound pipe on his head, that should do some damage. So the Bat would use more of the circumstance to his favour then Wolvie.
Put them in a square room with nothing in it, ouch for the Bat.

Thanks Jade, I'm a batfan before anything else(even Blade) and I have millions of Bat pics that I have either found on the net or scanned from comics.

You mean like a suit he used when he fought Superman and his suit was plugged into the city power supply? A punch that can phase Superman would level Wolverine.

Well that's one route he could take if he wanted to just brawl but I still prefer him using his mind and more finesse.

He did that? Man, i would hate to see his electricity bill.

Lol, I didn't mean that. Maybe the suit that he used against The first Predator. Something like that.

How could a suit charged by electricity take down superman?

Those millionaires...............they just throw their money away don't they? lol

Oh yeah, the suit he used against the predator would be cool

With the help of Green Arrow and his kryptonite arrow, Supes was weakened pretty good then Bats commenced to beating the crap out of him.

well, batman stayed toe to toe with an adimantium enhanced guy before (he knocked the crap out of bullseye in DC vs. Marvel #1) but I highly doubt that he would win or survive a battle with wolverine

Ahh thats it and adamantium battle suit.
Probably make him significantly slower though. Where Wolvie ist still nimble as all hell.

batman would not be able to handle the extra weight, wolverine's skeleton alone adds an extra hundred pounds to him

Can't handle extra weight??? Come on, this is Batman, peak athlete,master of willpower and endurance.

I'll put it another way. Wolverine is quick even with his heavy adamantium skeleton but Batman is just as quick as wolvie but if Batman used some kind of extra armor it would slow him down significantly making Wolverine faster.

I still think Bats could handle himself in plain spandex against Wolverine.

SPANDEX *shudders* I hate spandex. It's tight and revealing and totally gross on old wrinkly men.

A battle suit made of adamantium would not weigh batman down as much as wolverines bones actually. If you think about it, the total surface area of wolverines bones is a lot bigger than the surface area of a battle suit so the only advantage of the suit is that it would be hard for wolvie to cut through it. Batman would still feel the extra weight though so that would be a disdvantage for him. Hope that makes sense.

the bottom line is skill and experience, logan has training in neary every form of armed and unarmed combat and over 100 years of experience. He is also much more intelligent than he usually seems. Add to that the adamantium skeleton and claws along with the healing factor and immortality and the winner is clear.

Ras Al Ghul (The Demon's Head)is older than that and he still can't seem to defeat Batman on a physical or mental level.

You have to give Ra's credit though, he almost took the WHOLE JLA by himself by stealing Bats files. Mentally they are almost matched. Almost.

WOLVERINE WOULD WIN

"Ras Al Ghul (The Demon's Head)is older than that and he still can't seem to defeat Batman on a physical or mental level."

Bonehead!

What daywalker said... Batmans mind is like a frigin computer. Calculating possibilities and outcomes. Angles and speeds all while he's fighting.

I agree, that's why I mentioned Ras. He's no joke.

Batman wins more times than he loses. The ONLY advantage Wolverine would have is his healing factor and adamantium, both of which can be circumvented via superior martial arts/quickness (Elektra whipped his ass twice IIRC). Wolverine is not nearly as great a martial arts fighter as people are making him out to be - Daredevil is better.

Batman is a much better fighter, much better thinker (genius level or have we forgotten?), much better tactical fighter, and has myriad gadgets at his disposal to balance the scales.

PLUS he fights dirty.

Wolverine is so not immortal.

Batman plugged into the city grid to power his sonic, IIRC. He lured Superman to a vacant city block. Superman bathed the area in x-rays (like Batman thought he would), which triggered several missles.

It aint no way batman in his whole life could ever beat wolverine, it seems like noone knows anything about wolverine. The guy fights juggernaut, hulk, magneto, ripped a whole in thanos and omega red, to a standstill. How in the world would batman ever compare to something like that. See what yall dont understand is that wolverine has no weaknesses. The only time he actually loses is when someone like hulk or juggernaut hits him on the head knocking him out. The question is does batman with his human strength has the capabilities of knocking wolverine out "NO". Wolverine is the best fighter in marvel, the best, it aint no ," someone is getting the upper hand on wolverine" that would never happen because once you strike him he will always get the second or third lick in and thats all it would take to beat batman. When have you ever seen batman take on 500 ninjas at one time, never because that would be his last fight. Ive seen joker knock batman out, Wolverine is just to good to even be in the same room with batman. And what you all dont seem to understand is when wolverine goes into his berserker rage it aint no stopping him you can shoot, punch, stab, burn him up, electricute him, nothing works. The only thing that calms him down is when hes got the kill. Batman your out of your league.

derrick called it, batman needs specific tools to beat actauly powerfull adversaries. batman cannot hit wolverine hard enuf, venom can lift a max of 50 tons,he is as fast as spider man,and he cant k.o wolverine, if he cant batman hasnt a prayer

Sorry Derrick but if you think Wolverine has no weaknesses, it's you that needs to do more research on your hero, he's just harder to kill. I'm a Wolverine fan as well and he can die just like any other person. He needs to breath just like any ordinary human so he can be defeated/killed. Wolverine has a healing factor and unbreakable skeleton..........big whoop! He can still be defeated by conventional means believe it or not. Batman has faced far worse enemies than Wolverine.

Yes, Batman is only human and that is an admirable thing within itself to be a hero but people knock him because he has a belt and a few vehicles??? The devices that Batman has are only items that he uses because he's so well prepared but they're not a crutch by any means. Anyone that knows Batman knows that he's just as dangerous without his tools. He has a deadly analytical mind that everyone has to respect. Wolverine wouldn't have an easy day with the Dark Knight.

You gotta think outside the box man. What makes you think Batman is going to try to knock Wolverine out with a punch? That's what's so dangerous about Batman, you don't know how he'll attack you. With Batman, a punch may not even be thrown and he'll be the victor. Wolverine has a few handy powers to help him survive but they don't make him invincible.

Batman would use his mind rather than his attacking abilities. He'd find a way to defeat the adamantium first then enhance his strength to go toe to toe with wolverine; and in a straight fight Batman would kick ass.

Fighting Wolverine would simply be inefficient. Batman is too intelligent for that. You just don't go toe to toe with someone you cant physically hurt.
A little gas and Wolvie's out. Maybe even piss him off just so he does go berserk. Its easy to trap a crazed animal.

I agree with the gasing technique, but i'm going to say that when Wolvie is in his feral state he's probably his most dangerous. I don't think bats would wanna piss off wolverine unless he had some Scooby-Doo-esque trap set up in order to detain Wolvie. Wolvie going berserker is like sending a bull into a store that sells glass and fine china.

he's resistant to toxins, gas won't work. I still say that either wolvie or the devil could seriously trash batman

I like that

He's resistant to those things but that's not saying they can't take him out. If Wolvie is trapped in a room inhaling knock out gas, he's going down. It'll just take alot more to knock him out than the average person.

and he'll probably wake up or "come to" a lot faster than another human, but that doesn't mean that he can sit there and breath nothing but smoke without it taking effect.

i dont know how to do the qoute thing, but daywalker has a point i dont think anybody can set a trap like batman,he'd probably go after jean(bruce can get anybody to trust him) and then use her as bait. but he better be sure wolverine goes down cause he cant be wolverine in a actaul fight.

Whatever. Spiderman has beaten Wolverine. Knocked him into a tombstone and knocked him out. "No weaknesses?" How about he's slow, for starters - Elektra danced circles around him.

Wolverine is "the best fighter in Marvel?" LMAO! That's why Silver Samurai gave him hell, Sabretooth gave him hell, Elektra beat him, Spiderman beat him, he was afraid of Cyber, Marrow put a bone through his neck - and it took me five seconds to come up with those examples. Need more? Daredevil is a better fighter than Wolverine. Captain America is a better fighter than Wolverine. Get real.

LMAO @ "Venom can lift 50 tons" - try 11.

Batman could put Wolverine down with a pressure point move. He is the superior martial artist.

Batman devised a means that defeated the entire JLA - do you really think he could not overcome Wolverine?

If so, think again.

sorry buddy, dont test my venom knolwedge, it says 11 tons at spider fan..but that hasnt been edited in for ever, geocities has venom at a range of 11 to 50 becuase venom tossed around digger's.those way a hell of a lot more than 11 tons.not only that that is optimal strengh not max. spider man in a pinch can lift 15 tons. the symbiote augmented eddie brock to spidermans strengh and since eddie was in better shape he is actualy stronger than spidey. dont talk about old stats buddy stay updated

Powers and Abilities: As Venom Brock has super strength, and create webbing at will, and the alien costume can "morph" into any sort of clothing. As Brock, Eddie relies upon his keen investigative sense. It should be noted that during the period that Spider-Man wore the alien costume there was evidence that the Symbiote somehow fed on his adrenaline.

this is another fact from his new bio.now even this stuff is outdated, but if you have ever seen lethal protector you might know they leave a lot out about venom at most of his bio sites. here is why he fought juggernuat and was getting work when he got knocked into a lake of some kind of living fluid like his symbiote this fused with his suit making him more powre full. and he has absorbed the carnage symbiote witch made him look odd....but now in the most recent venom comic it is just the symbiote it un-bonded to eddie brock and is runnin around alaska.

all this is true and can be found by searching geocities venom bio, there are two the black backround page is the right one, the white dosent really say anything important, ill find it and post. but please this is wolverine vs batman
not try to look smart by sayin a bunch of crap about anyone
wolverine is way to dangerous to fight hand, even if your better one good slash and its over

Don't know who "geocities" is and have never been to "Spider Fan." Have been reading Spiderman since oh...1984? I daresay I know a tad about the character.

Is geocities affiliated with Marvel Comics? No. Is their information accurate? No.

11-50 tons? LoL, Venom can not lift anywhere near 50 tons. Ask Todd Mcfarlane - you know, the guy who created Venom?

Spiderman does not lift 15 tons either, it is closer to 10 (he is not as strong as The Lizard).

I will say it again. Spiderman has whipped Wolvie's ass. He is NOT that good of a fighter, he is just a GAME fighter.

todd mcfarlane isnt workin for marvel anymore wonder why?
anyhow you must not know as much as you say becuase for someone whos been readin since 1984 dosent know as much as he thinks. read venom's miniseries befor you start up. leathal protector #5 is all you need to see. venom is no hulk, but the symbiote does get a tad stonger the more intense eddie brock gets

you want marvel stats? here ya go
POWER GRID 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
INTELLIGENCE 2.3
STRENGTH 4.9 or 5 its close
SPEED 4
DURABILITY 2
AGILITY 4
REFLEXES 4
FIGHTING SKILLS 3

Mcfarlane's not working for Marvel has zero to do with the issue at hand - and Venom still cannot lift anywhere near 50 tons. The individual who created him, first drew him, et cetera never characterized Venom as being grossly superior in strength to Spiderman.

You stated that a "digger" weighs way more than 10 tons - according to whom? What is your frame of reference?

Again I ask is the geocities site in any way affiliated with Marvel Comics? No, so why are you claiming that they are accurate?

Now you are saying "a tad" stronger - would not one have to be more than "a tad stronger" to lift 50 tons as opposed to 11 tons? That being said, Carnage is supposed to be stronger than Venom and Spidey both, so you are telling me that Carnage can lift more than 50 tons?

Not on your life!

look you can talk all you want about affilated this and that but if you dont read the comics dont talk about the stats.the site may be wrong about 50 tons but 11 is not his max. if you want evidence you have to read the comics yourself. venom:the madness and Venom:leathal protector both show he has increased his strength. and carnage has nothing to do with it. read those befor you try to talk about venom. its his own friggin series for cryin out loud if any body knows what he can or cant do its in those issues. end of story

As I thought. Some fansite lists Venom as being able to lift 50 tons and it is gospel

Gospel? truth or exageration? anyhow i think somewhere in this thread there should be somekinda library where you can look at actual references about anyone you want, i would like to know what this stuff about batman and sunlight is. and geocities is not a fansite its a search engine. unfortunatly marvel has some pretty vauge power grids venom is a five out of seven..but spidey is a four thats only 3 away from juggernaut's 7 and that makes no sense. i remember the marvel cards from 97' and they had the same stats but with actaull references. like a 3 was an olimpic champion and ect..so if someone could post a dc version of a power grid maybe these disputes would be easier to understand

i got an offical marvel comic collectors hand book that says Venom can press almost 11 tons, but that was written in 1989. (i just bought it cause venom was one of the guys on the cover) I'd say spidey's strength would be about 6.5 may 7.5 tons but i'm not sure. I know the guide is old, but it was officially written by marvel. I don't see how Venom got juiced to 50 tons. That's too strong to be believeable...

yeah i see your point. the 50 is probably wrong but a digger is at least 20. spidermans strengh is listed at 10 and once he lifted 15. carnage is three times spideys strength. but i will try to get a pic of the digger. and i asked a guy at spider-fan what was venom current abilities. all fans really should check it out there isnt much you cant find there. every apperance of every character spiderman related with bios. www.spiderfan.com

ok, i guess he does have a chance against wolvie, but not against the man without fear

though wolvie is the best at what he does, batman is better. he has been going out every night for decades fighting psychos. its wolvies brawn vs batmans brains and some brawn of his own. batman outsmarts him, maybe uses wolvies rage against him. batman has found ways to take down the whole jla with no powers of his own! batman wins with experience andhe has beaten tougher opponentsin my opinion.

Who do u think would win between Cyclops and Woverine

Wolvie

unless cyke's been getting a tan all day, then blasts logan at full power. His eye can pulverize adamantium according to everything i've read

Wolverine has been fighting for decades as well, and more than the Batman. He's about three to four times the Batman's age.
Woverine has pretty good detective skills himself, but his are different as they often rely on natural instincts and sensory input more than meticulous cognitive training and obsessive information intake.
Wolverine's "gut" is never wrong, and his senses are hard to fool. The Batman seems to know everything there is to know.
Wolverine is unquestionably tougher as a fighter; he's faster, obviously more durable, and is equal if not stronger to the Batman in strength (able to lift 800 lbs while possessing adamantium skeleton, the highest limit for a peak-condition human being).
Wolverine's fighting skills rely more on primal instinct coupled with Bushido samurai training than the combined full-spectrum martial arts that the Batman practices.
When all is said and done, it comes down to one factor in my opinion: emotional state of mind. Wolverine would surely win against all odds in a fight with Bats, except for that pesky switch in his head that sometimes makes him lose control. The Batman has more emotional control than Wolverine, even though Wolverine has become significantly more controlled in past decades. The Punisher (overrated psycho that he is) pulled a fantastic move recently; he escaped from Daredevil, Wolverine and Spider-Man by exploiting Wolverine's berserker rage. He slammed Wolvie's nose cartilage into his brain and flipped that switch, leaving DD and Spider-Man to devote their efforts to restraining the crazy runt. As for avoiding Wolverine himself, it was his own ability to think clearly that allowed him to get away from his much stronger and faster opponent. If the Batman used this kind of tactic, it would be his best bet for defeating Wolverine in battle.

Erm, a sufficient mass of adamantium would be slightly dented if Thor, at full strength, struck it with Mjolnir. Cyke's blast can "pulverize" adamantium?

Not on your life.

Wolvie vs. Batman? With prep time, sorry, Batman defeats Wolverine. He is the superior martial artist (Wolverine would get abused by Daredevil, Bullseye, and Gamora (for starters) and HAS been abused by Elektra on a few occasions), period.

"Faster?" Mmm, how so?

Wolverine would never on earth compare to Batman in detective skills. Batman is not too far behind Sherlock Holmes. Wolvie is not in the same league here.

Batman is a much better tactician. MUCH better.

Batman is oodles smarter - and I am willing to venture that he is much dirtier.

Batman would simply cheat.

And who put Wolvie down in that comic? yes, the man without fear - Daredevil!

Never:

Wolverine is dirtier than Batman in many ways. I stand by Herr Logan's assertion that Wolverine is potentially faster than the Batman. I would not say that Wolverine's detective skills "do not compare" to the Batman's. The Batman's skills of the type you are thinking are better, but Wolverine's senses and experience may be enough to compensate. Their styles are very different, and therefore this isn't an easy fight to decide. The Batman's tactical style is more based on training and knowledge, while Wolverine's is more based on instinct. Wolverine also has training, knowledge, and more experience than the Batman. Wolverine was trained as a covert operative, and he is familiar with high-tech war toys. I'd dare say he can perform any feat the Batman can except reach the top shelf in the fridge, barring the fact that he doesn't have all those toys within his reach at any given moment. He can operate the same kinds of vehicles, all kinds of weapons, and he has knowledge of computers, even if he'd rather not be closed in with machines for long periods of time. In the end, I don't think the Batman has anything on Wolverine except for his look, which isn't going to scare Wolverine, and his emotional control. The Batman would have to pull a Punisher-type move on Wolverine to use this weak spot.

You stated that Wolverine is dirtier than Batman in "many ways" - and you did not list one...?

An example of Batman fighting dirty? Read the "Prometheus Unbound" story arc wherein Batman uploaded the genetic profile of Professor Stephen Hawking after Prometheus accidentally left his helmet behind? Difference between "sneaky" and "dirty." Batman is definitely dirty.

"Potentially faster." Sabretooth is faster than Wolverine. Elektra is faster than Wolverine. Daredevil is faster than Wolverine. Do recall Wolverine is lugging around an additional 100 lbs (adamantium exoskeleton) while Batman is just about the epitome of human excellence as regards to physical condition. "Faster?" No way - neither his speed nor his reflexes were not augmented as a result of his Weapon X enhancements.

Detective skills? Sure, he can track anyone damn near anwhere, but is this is but one aspect of detective work. So can Batman, albeit a tad slower. I should have clarified by saying that Batman's analytical skills are far superior (and this comes into play while doing detective work). Do you wish to challenge that? I can cite several instances from the latest JLA run that would support my position.

Operate the same kinds of vehicles? Egad, your moniker IS Batman - no way can Wolvie operate the same technology that Batman can. Batman is a tinkerer - he is also a genius. Do you think that Wolverine could, for example, design the Batmobile? Not on your life.

"Knowledge of computers." Again, Batman's proficiency with ALL manner of technology far exceeds Wolvie's. You might want to call Tony Starks.

Batman is a better martial artist (who has beaten Batman in martial arts? I think Lady Shiva, who is like a 10 on a 1-10 scale) also. Wolverine, again, falls under Gamora, Daredevil, Bullseye, and Elektra. Here is a quick scale for you; am interested in what knowledge you possess of the martial arts abilities of various comic book characters (this is on a 1-10 scale and is accurate, trust me):

Daredevil: 8.5
Elektra: 9.25
Bullseye: 9.5
Stick: 10
Stone: 9.5
Iron Fist: 9
Batman: 8
Karate Kid: 15
Shang Chi: 10
Batgirl: 9.95

Now where on this scale do you think Wolverine falls...?

My position? Batman is a far superior battlefield tactician, analyst, detective, inventor, businessman, thinker, and I am in the process of providing evidence that he is a superior fighter.

I await your response.

bullseye? jesus, give DD some credit, he and elektra are at least a 9.7. bullseye is a 7 at best. the fact that he beat elektra was a fluke, and the only times he has ever beaten daredevil was when DD was either injured or nuts. also, batman has knocked him out with one punch, and his adamantium skeleton is even heavier than wolverine's since some of his bones are complete adamantium prosthetics.

were did you get that list? is there a site for these thing's?

the only 10's that I can think of are Ogun, Iron Fist, Shiva, Stick, and Stone.

got any pick's of stick and stone? there is a spiderman version but there styx and stone and from the look's of the spidey version they were mediocure villian's at best

You do not know your martial artists

LMAO @ "Bullseye is a 7 at best" - then you said DD AND Elektra are at LEAST a 9.7?!

Batman knocked out who with one punch? Bullseye? Who are you talking about?

Daredevil, at "least a 9.7" Will build upon that this evening.

Bullseye, SEVEN at best!! Omg Have you EVER heard of Lord Dark Wind?

Batman did knock Bullseye out with one punch in Marvel vs. DC. Batman is stronger (or just meaner) than Daredevil.

Honestly, I can't think of a specific example of Wolverine being a dirty ittle bastard, but after reading his exploits for several years, I figured that his twisted sense of humor combined with his willingness to take a human life (a line the Batman will not cross) made him more flexible in his conduct than the Batman.
I don't believe for one second that Bullseye can beat Wolverine in a fight. It's very possible that Daredevil could win a fight with Wolverine under the right circumstances, but he isn't faster, stronger, or more vicious. I don't believe that Sabretooth is faster than Wolverine. Both Sabretooth and Batman weigh more than Wolverine, and as for carrying "an extra 100" around with him, Wolverine has had plenty of time to adapt to his condition, which has made him stronger. It is recorded that when possessing his adamantium skeleton, he can lift 800 lbs., which is equal to or more than any normal human like the Batman can lift. If the Batman is equal to Captain America, then he is equal in strength to Wolverine. Wolverine doesn't need to have been enhanced by the Weapon X program in speed and reflexes. His speed and reflexes are such that he has moved faster than trained enforcers' eyes could keep up. He has moved fast enough that he is at the very least equal to the Batman, and certainly Daredevil as well. he was fast enough to blindside Spider-Man with a grabbing maneuver, and you know about the spider-sense.
Certainly the Batman's analytical skills are more advanced than Wolverine's. He relies on those. Wolverine isn't the inventor of any major weapons or high-tech vehicles, but the point is, he could use them if he had to. Bruce Wayne does actually invent all of his technology, either. Often, Wayne will discover new technology, set up a department in WayneTech to build something similar, and then big pieces of machinery mysteriously disappear from the warehouse. I have the Ultimate Guide to Batman and it lays that much out clearly.
Wolverine was a trained covert operative and a soldier, so his weapons and computer training give him enough of an edge to keep up with someone who relies on such technology, when his real strengths are his own body and instincts.
Wolverine may have studied as many martial arts styles as the Batman, and he may not have. either way, his style of fighting can lean toward the organized styles that the Batman uses or just pure fighting instinct. I have confidence that a realistic fight between these two would yield a draw at best for the batman, and a victory for Wolverine at the worst.
Both of these fighters never quit, ever. This in mind, the big question is, who can last longer? You could also ask who is more willing to end the fight quickly, but I don't believe that Wolverine would seriously consider killing a man of the Batman's caliber, unless the Batman flipped his switch and sent him into a mindless rage, which would be his best bet for a victory. The Batman's brain serve him well, but they don't overpower Wolverine's instinct and fighting prowess, until you take away Wovlerine's ability to think rationally at all.

Will disagree as regards to Batman not crossing that line. I am sure you have read "Dark Knight Returns?" Need I say more? Whoa. AND "Dark Knight Strikes Back."

Re: Wolverine vs. Bullseye, are you sure about that? I stated that Bullseye is a better martial artist than Wolvie. In a pure hand to hand fight (which is what I am referencing - Wolvie's claws and skeleton give him a decided advantage), I am very willing to bet Bullseye is superior.

Re: Daredevil vs. Wolverine in speed...you are joking...right?

Re: Sabretooth vs. Wolverine in speed - has been stated by writers on more than one occasion. Will dig up issue and quote it in a bit (if I have time). If not in a few mins, then this evening Shoot, I thought it was common knowledge that Sabretooth was "bigger, faster, and stronger?"



Horrible writing. Absolutely ridiculous. Wolverine cannot ever touch Spiderman. Spiderman only dodges bullets and his reflexes are quicker than a human's (and Wolverine is indeed human) by a factor of 15



Horrible writing as well. Do you know how fast one would have to move in order to be this quick? SABRETOOTH has been shown to move as a blur, not Wolverine (at least not consistently. apparently the writer whom you reference thinks otherwise). Wolverine gets tagged all of the time (punches, kicks, bullets, fists).

Re: Wolverine using Batman's technology, will have to agree to disagree. Weapons are one thing; developed technology is another.

Re: Batman inventing all of his technology - not sure I inferred that he did. If I did indeed do that, it was not my intent. Batman will tinker with existing technology as well as develop a good portion of his own - agree?

Re: Training allowing Wolverine to be on par with Batman, how does having covert ops training translate into being able to operate what Batman invents? No way! Pym, Reed Richards, Victor Von Doom, Starks - okay. Logan? No - and again, if so, how?

Re: Studying martial arts techniques equal in number to Batman? Hmm, you think so? Elektra routinely makes Wolverine look foolish. How superior is Lady Shiva to Batman?

Re: Outcome? Captain America might have a slight fighting edge over Batman, and I am assuming you are aware of Cap's fighting prowess...and that would be a long fight. You are suggesting that Wolverine is on par with Cap? God, you have seen such "average" martial artists such as Silver Samurai touch up Wolverine quite a bit, correct?

Again, Batman's brain is his best asset. His ability to think on his feet is nigh unmatched - how long did it take him to determine that Daredevil was blind during a fight, for example?

stick and stone are daredevil's mentors. they were heavily involved during the miller run. Bullseye really is a worse martial artist overall and he is slower than wolverine because apart from having his skeleton plated, bullseye has several adamantium prosthetics in place of bones. the difference is that wolvie has a healing factor and over a hundred years of training to back that up. batman would have a harder time.

Thank you for that, Darth Jello.

Never, you're not in a position to judge my writing abilities until you yourself can use "inferred" properly. The word you wanted was "imply." Even the Rhino knew that. Granted, he was a genius at the time, but still.

I concede that martial artists equal to Batman have given Wolverine quite a hard time. However, Wolverine always won in the end. The last martial artist to completely humiliate and definitively defeat Wolverine in a battle was Lord Shingen Yashida, and Wolverine learned from that experience. Guess where Shingen is now? that's right, feeding worms.
Electra was beating up a wounded, confused man who thought he was a beast. He's better now, and just like with Shingen, he would be much harder to defeat than when he was a weaker, less self-assured man. (I realize that Greg Rucka, writer of the Wolverine relaunch, has made Wolverine less confident in the new series. In discussing Wolverine's mind-set and abilities, I am excluding Rucka's decision to regress Wolverine back into self-doubt and focusing on the Wolverine of past self-titled comics and every other comic in which he appears currently.)

Wolverine does not heavily rely on technology (aside from that which was used to augment his bones), but I have seen instances when he cobbled together an outfit and flame pack that allowed him to fool a bunch of ninjas into thinking he was Johnny Storm. He has demonstrated impressive improvisation skills, and therefore I believe that if he needed to match the Batman in a gadget-fight, he could use his numerous connections (the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and oh yes, the X-Men) to supply him with what he needs. This would only be to even the score a little. Wolverine doesn't need to be as adept with toys and human methods of detection, for he was born with numerous and significant advantages over the Batman.

You doubt that Wolverine has taken Spider-Man off-guard in spite of his spider-sense? Read the storyline early in the Spider-Man (volume 1) series that features Wolverine and the Wendigo. I think issues 7-10, or thereabouts. Wolverine gets pissed and Spidey is standing right next to him. He grabs him by the throat, slams him into a tree, and gives him the two-and-a-half claw throat hold (similar to in the movie). Spider-Man should have been able to avoid that, should he? Well, he didn't. He also didn't prevent the Black Cat from grabbing his wrist and webbing him to a building before going after a mutant drug-dealer who may or may not have been raping her for the 2+ years that Kevin Smith has been putting off finishing that mini-series. The Black Cat shouldn't have been able to out-move Spider-Man, but Wolverine does what he pleases, to anyone he pleases. They made him too good, but that's how it is.

It is certainly common knowledge that Sabretooth is bigger and stronger than Wolverine. Faster? Not that I've seen. If you read "X-Men: Vignettes," there is a story in which Wolverine is hunted by Sabretooth and he never even lays eyes on him. The fact that he was not expecting such a hunt and Sabretooth was concealing his scent (don't ask me how) coupled with the knowledge that Wolverine was less secure and confidant back then let me know that Wolverine would do much better today. The Batman isn't as fast as Sabretooth, and I firmly believe that if Wolverine were aware that an opponent were near, he could exceed Sabretooth's speed, and anyone lesser or equal to him.
The only thing Bullseye has on Wolverine is his aim. Wolverine can probably out-throw and out-shoot most people on Earth, but that's Bullseye's stock-in-trade. A lot of good that would do in a fight with Wolverine.

It's not my decision or my fault that the writers of Marvel Comics have made Wolverine so tough and tenacious that he can beat most opponents that come his way, even if just temporarily. I have testified in other threads that the Batman can beat almost anyone who opposes him, too, but Wolverine is the same kind of category that the Batman is in: unstoppable, unrelenting know-it-all hunter/scrapper. The fact that both combatants do not quit and have wills of steel make them well-matched in some ways. Unfortunately, the Batman's body-- as well as his toys-- are not adamantium, or self-regenerating, or as inhumanly tough as Wolverine has been in the past decade. His best bet is to use the sonic tricks he used on Superman so as to trigger a berserker rage and take advantage of the lack of control.

There is no context here, and until there is, this is a moot debate. One thing I realize is, it's much easier to imagine Wolverine lying on the ground bleeding than the Batman. The Batman just looks like a perpetual winner, while Wolverine has a healing factor for such occasions as when he's gutted or has his face blown off. Until the Batman is willing to be the Punisher, he will have very few options likely to prevail in a fight.

Yes, but DKR is not canon. It's ... I'm not sure what it is. I'd call it elseworld, even though it isn't actually labled as such.

Incidently, what does DKSB stand for? Batman kills Robin?

Um, bleh. Lost my response again...

DKR is not "canon." Continue...? It was...not a one-shot...hrm. I understand what type of term you are searching for; I cannot conjure forth one either.

Are you also inferring that Frank Miller's characterization was inaccurate?

DKSB = Dark Knight Strikes Back. Batman chopped Robin's (Dick Grayson, I think) head off after Robin tortured the current Robin, damn near killing her.

"Spawn vs. Batman is a companion piece to DC Comic's The Dark Knight Returns. It does not represent current DC continuity"--Frank Miller(?) at the beginning of his Spawn-Batman crossover.



It seems to me that Frank Miller's characterization in this particular regard is very...chaotic. Batman refuses to kill the mutant leader with his tank, but he then kills The Joker. Batman orders his men to not kill anybody in the first issue of TKSA (the only issue I've read), but goes on to kill Dick Grayson. And in Batman/Spawn, which is a companion piece to TKR, Batman beats on Spawn for killing a trio of murderers.

Okay, but Spawn is a McFarlane (Wildstorm? Image? Forget which entity owns the other) character...unless McFarlane sold the rights to the character. He is not a DC character.

Robin is, Superman is, Green Arrow is, Flash is, Green Lantern is, Luthor is, Hawkman is, Joker is, Two-Face is. I see that as being the primary difference between those two. Crossovers are very rarely considered as being in continuity...but neither DKR nor DKSB were crossovers. Not attacking here; trying to be clear in stating my position.

Because it is outside of DC continuity, is it inaccurate as regards to the portrayals of the characters therein? You say "chaotic" - how? ONLY because he kills?

Would "inconsistent" be more accurate than chaotic - and I am only referencing the fact that he killed (Batman killed pre-Robin also, btw) in the issues? Or you do indeed mean "chaotic" as in confused, disorderly?

I thought that the implication was that Spawn/Batman was not part of the main continuity because it was a companion piece to DKR. I may have been wrong about that.

But DKR still can't be cannon because that reality has Barry Allen as the Flash and Hal Jordan as the Green Lantern, which contradicts continuity.



Inconsistent would probably have been a better word.

INDEED A OFF THE TOPIC POST BY VENOMfan!

Never do you have a top ten list for reaction speed? I havent been able to put a good estimate on Venom, It say's his version of "spider-sense"
isnt as complex hence not as responsive, but it still came down to being unkown wether or not he could dodge bullet's or a barrage of gunfire.
I have never seen him act that fast, but he usualy is too lazy to avoid regular gunfire((dosent need to)) so i figured it was about 25x threw 35x time reaction speed, it cant be that far behind spider-sense right?

15
Shang Chi: 10
Batgirl: 9.95

I wanna know where you got this from coz it sucks. Iron fist would never have a lower score than bullshit.He is 'the master of martial arts'.Batman would never be 8, he'd be a 9(127 martial arts perfected). DD(9.5) is on a par with Iron fist and Bats(9)technically but his senses and reflexes (DD) and captain americas(9.5) physical perfection(beyond batman's) give them the edge. Stick and stone are dead on correct and so is elektra.Bullshit is an 8 at best. It doesn't matter if some resource said it, I've read comics on all these guys for donkey's ears and I've never seen bullshit pull out anything worth 9.5. He's a wicked fighter and master marksman but 9.5?I dont think so. so where is it from?

Venom, I sure don't. Not sure how Venom would be 25x - 35x faster when Spiderman is only quicker than humans by a factor of 15...? He is not that much faster than Spidey (it has been said numerous times that he is SLOWER than Spidey, but I know how touchy you are about Venom), if at all - and I **should** say "quicker" as opposed to "faster." I am not referencing foot speed.

Several individuals compiled the list, Kal. Feel free to continue to question; I have no problem with that - it is hardly gospel, LoL

Re: Iron Fist being "the master of martial arts," bullshit. He is one of the most skilled, but hardly "the master."

Batman is no 9. Elektra is "only" a 9.25 and she would go toe-to-toe with Lady Shiva, who is superior to Batman by a "considerable" margin - and I enclosed "considerable" in quotes as the increments are more meaningful higher up the scale.

DD is not on par with IF. How so?

DD is also SUPERIOR to Batman. God, if they went h2h DD walks away the winner. Give me a break.

Bullseye KILLED Elektra, how is she higher than him?

Have also read comics for 20 years - how does that alone discredit Bullseye?

LoL @ "8 at best!"



Of course I meant to type "...necessarily well **versed** in ALL technology?"

lol no what i ment was Spidey is usualy on a scale of 40x and opposed to him venom would be say 25x threw 35x I know he's not as fast or agile. so if 15x time's is the factor maybe a 7x threw 12x scale?

Oh, I see what you are saying - and that sounds about right (in my opinion) since Venom is a lot faster than any "regular human."

I alway's thought Sabretooth was supposed to be able to take out Wolvie..but are there any comic's were he doe's? or at least kick's some ass? he seem's pretty under-rated in the X-men forum's and most of them think any member of the X-men could pawn him((except Psylocke of course)). damn shame I alway's thought he rocked

DKR and DK2 are canon. they are a what if scenario of the silver age batman if the crisis had never happened.

Maybe I just don't know what the word means, but how are "what if" scenarioes canon?

Never, you are quite a nasty little guy, aren't you?

Apparently, long, long ago, the words imply and infer were synonyms. Most people today do not use them interchangeably. I defer to your superior knowledge of outdated language. Still, you can educate without being nasty.

"Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" is not canon. It is a possible future for the Batman and his world stemming from the death of Jason Todd. If this future were valid, then the Dark Knight would have quit and returned ten years later.
A point on which you are wrong, pure and simple: in "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns," the Batman does not kill. He did not kill the Joker, or anyone else. The Joker chose to kill himself. Disregard the distinction between crippling and killing if you want to be inaccurate; the point remains that if the Batman did to Wolverine what he did to the Joker, it would not win him the battle.
In the sequels, he may well be a killer. I was disappointed with it and haven't reread the books, and I remember only vaguely. The point is, it's Frank Miller having his way with Batman continuity like a 300 pound man has his way with his new cellmate, not legitimate continuity that conforms to the "Batman Bible," which forbids Batman to kill. Yes, the Batman did kill, pre-Robin, as I've pointed out in the forums several times now. That was before the Batman Bible, which mentions his association with Robin (hence, there always seems to be one around). It also ensures that he remains celibate. Poor Batman.

I am not arguing that Wolverine is, on the whole, faster than Spider-Man. It was clear to me from day one that Spider-Man was faster than most Marvel characters. The point is, even with a man as fast and precognitive as Spider-Man, Wolverine surprised him. He does things his relative stats woulds seemingly prohibit. If he can blindside Spider-Man, he has the potential to beat his own regular speed. His own regular speed is faster than the Batman's. Like I said, he moves at speeds that make his image blurry to observers. I'd dig out my Essential Wolverine collection and check for an example, but I'm lazy. He has dodged his share of bullets as well. Just because half of the clip ends up in his body doesn't mean he didn't dodge the other half. He dodges all kinds of projectiles and blows. If you don't know by now that Wolverine is equal to or faster than any normal human hero, then examples won't convince you. Unless you're completely ignorant of Wolverine's abilities and are making all this up. But that couldn't be, could it?

Obviously, Wolverine has had defeats. He was defeated by people who vastly outclassed his power and/or were willing to kill. The Batman, as undeniably cool as he is, is neither. Wolverine is not dead, and not for the lack of trying on the part of his enemies. Wolverine gets defeated because it would be boring to simply watch him win every time, and that doesn't make for good reading. Nor would it be if Wolverine were to kill off his best villains. For the same reason, the Batman doesn't kill his villains, and they never kill him. It would be more realistic if the Batman had been killed long ago. Probably the same with Wolverine. Put the two of them together and take a wild guess who can last longer in a fight to the finish. What's that? The Batman won't participate in that kind of fight? Then he has no choice but to resort to the tactic I suggested in previous posts, or flee. Or call in the JLA. The Batman isn't Lady Deathstrike, or Cyber. Cyber was the one man Wolverine was afraid of, and he got eaten by mutant beetles. The Batman scares cowards, not Wolverine. You can't really believe that even human perfection is more dangerous than Wolverine in a fight. Wolverine would win because he has all of Batman's determination and indomitable will, plus mutant powers and a cyborg infrastructure. That and the will to kill in order to survive. When Wolverine backs the Batman into a corner, his only out is to make Wolverine sloppy with rage. I believe that the Batman would win a fight with Wolverine, but it wouldn't be a fight based on physical abilities, and it wouldn't even be primarily about intelligence. You think Wolverine hasn't angered an opponent in order to make them slip up?

Several individuals compiled the list, Kal. Feel free to continue to question; I have no problem with that - it is hardly gospel, LoL
Oh ok

Re: Iron Fist being "the master of martial arts," bullshit. He is one of the most skilled, but hardly "the master."'
'the master of the martial arts' is his tagline so I assumed that was 'gospel'.Am open to debate on that.

Batman is no 9. Elektra is "only" a 9.25 and she would go toe-to-toe with Lady Shiva, who is superior to Batman by a "considerable" margin - and I enclosed "considerable" in quotes as the increments are moremeaningful higher up the scale.
debatable, but bats beat shiva recently, so its all up in the air.

DD is not on par with IF. How so?
Only time I seen them they fight, it was a stalemate.

DD is also SUPERIOR to Batman. God, if they went h2h DD walks away the winner. Give me a break.
Definitely agreed that DD would beat batman but we were talking about strictly martial arts skill weren't we and that alone doesnt alone win fights. I rate their skill as the same but I think DD is tougher and faster.

Bullseye KILLED Elektra, how is she higher than him?
Good point. But I think therefore, elektra should have a lower score and Bullseye about an 8.5.Still don't reckon he's a 9.5.

You've opened my eyes to bullshit's ability a bit. Don't get me wrong, DD is my favourite superdude and Bullseye obviously his nemesis(aswell as fatboy) but I just won't agree he's a 9.5.

If the ratings you gave were about who was toughest I'd prob agree but thats different than being skilled at martial arts

Martial arts don't make the whole fight. I have a reprint of the issue where Bullseye kills Electra, but I'm too lazy to reach over two feet and read it. I don't remember why she lost that one.
Intuitively, the Batman seems physically stronger than Daredevil, and I am willing to bet he is superior in martial arts by humkan standards. It would be the enhanced senses that gives Daredevil the biggest edge, as they would Wolverine, to a lesser degree than DD. Daredevil also may be more maneuverable physically than the Batman.
Let's face it, the Batman is a hulk of a man who, fast as he is, may not be the fastest martial artist in the world. Wolverine is of a similar body-type as the Batman, but he's a mutant who seems to outdo most humans in feats of strength, speed, agility, and obviously toughness.

BATMAN!BATMAN!BATMAN!
need i say more?!

Wolvie isnt that strong compared to a human tho, if bat's his peak human strength then there both at 800lb strength and bat's faced Captain America who's also peak human

Well, he's incredibly strong compared to most normal humans. He's equal to a peak specimen of a normal human, which is Captain America. Wolverine is at least as strong as the Batman, depending on whether the Batman is as strong as a normal human can possibly be. Captain America and Wolverine both have a biological edge over the Batman, who has to work harder.

Martial arts don't make the whole fight. I have a reprint of the issue where Bullseye kills Electra, but I'm too lazy to reach over two feet and read it. I don't remember why she lost that one.
Intuitively, the Batman seems physically stronger than Daredevil, and I am willing to bet he is superior in martial arts by humkan standards. It would be the enhanced senses that gives Daredevil the biggest edge, as they would Wolverine, to a lesser degree than DD. Daredevil also may be more maneuverable physically than the Batman.
Let's face it, the Batman is a hulk of a man who, fast as he is, may not be the fastest martial artist in the world. Wolverine is of a similar body-type as the Batman, but he's a mutant who seems to outdo most humans in feats of strength, speed, agility, and obviously toughness.

Agreed, except we've had the whole whos stronger thing before and DD has done more strong things than batman in his comics but really they're about the same in strength, with speed and agility going to the devil. DDs 6'0''200lbs, bats 6'2''210lbs.10lbs spread over two inches doesnt make for that much stronger if you no what I mean. Bats is drawn as a hulk of a man to make him look intimidating as is DD but really, 210lbs into 6'2'' all muscle is very athletic.His physique is really more akin to that of a decathlete or a small heavyweight boxer.Lean AND powerful. the speed that goes to DD is only based on his reactions(which are above normal human). Bats aint as strong as Wolverine or Cap.they can lift 800lbs but no norman humans can(except kingpin). Cap is supposed to be the ultimate, but definitely unnatainable human specimen. his condition cant be reached with training alone. He is 240lbs and Wolverine 300lbs(with adamantium). Strength goes to Wolverine really but I think that its a close fight. Batman, once he knows about the healing factor, wont mind going overkill on Wolvie like punisher does/did, with bombs and shit, coz he knows it wont kill him. Fist to fist(or claw) I think Wolverine has to take this one. Neither would kill the other. Wolvie won't kill good guys, bats wont kill period.

>>Never, you are quite a nasty little guy, aren't you?<<

When provoked. And especially when saucy individuals call themselves edifying others on the finer points of grammar/vocabulary when they have not a clue themselves.

>>Apparently, long, long ago, the words imply and infer were synonyms. Most people today do not use them interchangeably. I defer to your superior knowledge of outdated language.<<

"Most people? If it was "outdated" it would be listed only in the OED. LoL, do you write for a living? I do. You were incorrect. Period. Move on.

>>Still, you can educate without being nasty.<<

See first comment.

>>"Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" is not canon.<<

Never said it was.

>>If this future were valid, then the Dark Knight would have quit and returned ten years later.<<

What? It is Frank Miller's interpretation of an older, slower Batman character. His characterization is valid, as is his story arc.

>>He did not kill the Joker, or anyone else. The Joker chose to kill himself.<<

Do have not the issue handy considering I gave it to a friend as a present. I now recall that he broke the Joker's neck; the Joker twisted it further, killing himself. I admit my error.

>>Yes, the Batman did kill, pre-Robin, as I've pointed out in the forums several times now.<<

And he killed Robin in Dark Knight Strikes Back. You were saying...?

>>The point is, even with a man as fast and precognitive as Spider-Man, Wolverine surprised him.<<

Shoddy writing. End of story. Odd how he easily bounces around Wolverine in Secret Wars and knocks Wolverine out (you know, the Wolverine that easily dodges punches and bullets?) in Spiderman vs. Wolverine. Anyone who knows anything about Spidey is aware that his reflexes are superior to a human's by a factor of 15 or so. Wolverine is NOWHERE near that fast. LoL, Elektra is not as fast as Spidey and she puts Wolvie's ass down SO easily.

>>Like I said, he moves at speeds that make his image blurry to observers.<<

Bullshit. Where has he CONSISTENTLY done this? Nowhere.

>>I'd dig out my Essential Wolverine collection and check for an example, but I'm lazy.<<

AN example? LoL, sounds like the EXCEPTION to the RULE, does it not?

>>He has dodged his share of bullets as well. Just because half of the clip ends up in his body doesn't mean he didn't dodge the other half.<<

Um, that is YOUR interpretation. It is not EASY to hit any human with martial arts ability whilst that human is moving, now is it? HUGE difference between "dodging bullets" (as in contorting one's body to dodge THE bullet) and an evasive maneuver.

>>If you don't know by now that Wolverine is equal to or faster than any normal human hero, then examples won't convince you. Unless you're completely ignorant of Wolverine's abilities and are making all this up. But that couldn't be, could it?<<

LMAO, I have been reading X-Men since 1981. Please - and is Batman a "normal human hero?" Court adjourned.

>>Obviously, Wolverine has had defeats.<<

MANY.

>>He was defeated by people who vastly outclassed his power and/or were willing to kill.<<

Elektra? Cyber? Marrow? Lady Deathstrike? Omega Red? Iron Fist? Would you like more?

>>Wolverine gets defeated because it would be boring to simply watch him win every time, and that doesn't make for good reading.<<

Odd, considering he gets his ass handed to him quite a bit, is it not?

After all of this blah blah, where is the proof that would substantiate your claims? That is, if you have any?

>>'the master of the martial arts' is his tagline so I assumed that was 'gospel'.Am open to debate on that.<<

My mistake. I read that as "the top martial artist in the Marvel U."

>>debatable, but bats beat shiva recently, so its all up in the air.<<

Not debatable, Batman cannot regularly beat Shiva. Shit, she TRAINED him. CATWOMAN beat Shiva recently. How? Sucker punched her.

>>Only time I seen them they fight, it was a stalemate.<<

One fight. Is Batman on par with Cap? They stalemated.

>>Definitely agreed that DD would beat batman but we were talking about strictly martial arts skill weren't we and that alone doesnt alone win fights.<<

You lost me here...

>>Intuitively, the Batman seems physically stronger than Daredevil, and I am willing to bet he is superior in martial arts by humkan standards.<<

LoL. Then you must not read both books, as it is visibly clear that Daredevil is superior to Batman in every way except intelligence and weaponry to those who read both books routinely.

>>>It would be the enhanced senses that gives Daredevil the biggest edge<<<

See above sentence.

>>He's equal to a peak specimen of a normal human<<

Interesting, they say the same about Batman.

i cant see one peak human being stronger than another.........cuase you know there both "peak" there isnt a little more peakish<i have no idea

Never: I already pointed out the Batman's most likely method of attaining victory over Wolverine, and you have not contested it. That leaves it open for you to be right.
Wolverine gets his ass handed to him a lot because he tackles more super-powered villains than the Batman does, routinely. The Batman wins most of his fights because he can't heal from the kind of injuries that Wolverine sustains, and that would result in a dumb stunt publicity a la the "death" of Superman.
I've been known to be a nasty sum'***** in a debate, but usually I only deem it acceptable to get nasty when the issue at hand is ideology or something a little more abstract and meaningful than picking at examples gleaned from fiction. If this is how you play, the sand box is all yours, pal. I was hoping to avoid any more heated verbal battles, considering the last time I had one on these boards was with a poorly equipped, punitive, petty moderator who banned me for a month in lieu of an intelligent response. Here you are, well equipped for a verbal battle, but with as much subtlety and restraint as the Punisher. Congrats.

....got a link to this dispute?

i think given a pure hand to hand combat, logan would kick batman's ass. put all of batman's arsenal into the fight however, wolverine doesn't stand much of a chance.

The Batman:

In the future I strongly suggest you consider checking your ego at the door lest you bump into yet another individual who will waste no time in pointing out your myriad inconsistencies as regards to your comic book character "knowledge."

I personally could not care less if you are known to be a "nasty sum'***** in a debate" to others. As a matter of fact, I will leave it at that lest I...never mind.

LoL @ your caustic rejoinders when the first salvo fired emerged from your gun:



Now. You wrote this in response to my statement here:



And I wrote this in response to YOUR statement here:



If you did not come in here galloping on your high horse you would not have assumed that I was referencing YOUR writing as "horrible." I was indeed referencing the writing in the COMIC BOOK as horrible considering there is no way in hell that Wolverine can hang with Spiderman when discussing **speed or reflexes**. He CANNOT. I am willing to bet my FIRST BORN that at LEAST 90% of the writers you ask (Claremont, Davis, Busiek, Bendis, Simonson, Morrison, Waid, et al) will support my position.

Anywho.

>>Wolverine gets his ass handed to him a lot because he tackles more super-powered villains than the Batman does, routinely.<<

Um, since when were Elektra, Cyber, Marrow, Lady Deathstrike, Sabretooth, and Omega Red "super-powered villains?" Would you prefer his "official" list of enemies? Bloodscream, Chimera, Cyber, Epsilon Red, Genesis, Juggernaut, Lady Deathstrike, Magneto, Ogun, Omega Red, Sabretooth, Shiva, Silver Samurai/Viper. Of COURSE I may have forgotten a couple. Hell, Spiderman has taken down more impressive opponents! Yes, the very same Spiderman you think Wolverine can toss around.

That being said, sir, you do know how many of the aforementioned are considered to be "super-powered," correct? Two. Let us extend your argument to the ENTIRE X-Men. X-Men enemies?

Juggernaut, Magneto, Apocalypse, Hellfire Club, Mr. Sinister, Stryfe, Mastermind, Spiral, Mojo, Goblin Queen, Belasco, Nimrod (Sentinels), Phalanx, The Reavers, Fenris, Sauron, The Brood. Of COURSE I may have forgotten a couple.

Batman's enemies? Joker, Two-Face, Bane, The Riddler, Mr. Freeze, Harley Quinn, Killer Croc, The Penguin, Poison Ivy, Two Face, Ra's Al Ghul. Bane is the only one that would be considered "super-powered." Mayyyyyybe Killer Croc. Mayyyyyyybe.

Wolverine does not "routinely" tackle Juggernaut. He does, however, bump into Magneto often.

That would be one apiece.

Now then, the JLA's enemies?

Know Man, The Star Conqueror, Asmodel and His Angels, Darkseid, The Key, Vandal Savage, Julian September, Prometheus, The Injustice Gang, IF, Neron and The Demons, Epoch, Solaris, Amazo, Dr. Destiny, Professor Ivo.

There simply is no comparison here. Funny thing is Batman devises the means by which he can defeat all of Wolverine's enemies. Can you say the same about Wolverine defeating Batman's enemies?

Hell no. Batman's enemies are WAY more cerebral than Wolverine's, and come to think of it, "super-powered" most certainly can reference organizational/tactical/intellectual opponents. Ra's Al Ghul is an example.

At any rate, I am not trying to change your opinion. I "debate" simply because I LOVE comic books and I LOVE debating vs. battles. I have zero problem agreeing to disagree.

I will say this AGAIN. Every time I have quoted you and said "shoddy/horrible writing" I was referencing the comic book writer, not you. You are at fault here, not me.

Venomfan, I would consider an olympic class athlete as a "peak human being."

>>i think given a pure hand to hand combat, logan would kick batman's ass.<<

Entitled to your opinion, you are. Where do you think Logan places on the MU list of martial artists? I tell you for a FACT that Batman is a notch below Lady Shiva. Wolverine is not even CLOSE to IF, Elektra, Stick, Shang Chi, Moondragon, or Gamora.

ANYONE like to comment on where they think Wolverine places on the list? Hell, anyone (besides me, of course) care to provide us with a list of the Marvel U's martial artists/h2h combatants?