What the heck is OB1 thinking?

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jedi212guy
If someone was trying to hide a baby from a punk like Darth Vader,

1)Why would you go to Tatooine?
2)Why would you give the child to Vader's kin?
3)Why would the child keep the name Skywalker?

And most importantly, why the heck didn't Vader figure this all out and go get his son?!?

Julie
1) Lack of imagination
2) trying out the old "hide in plain sight" bit
3) So the kid could figure out his destiny...besides who would
want to give up a cool name like Skywalker?
4) Vader was a bit busy choking people and performing the
Emperor's every bidding to go find him. Why would Vader
want the responsibility for a small child; I mean he is in the
middle of a war.

bigsef2
no one ever HID luke on tatooine. vader knew he was there all along. vader kept luke hidden from the EMPEROR. the emperor didnt even know vader had children until sometime after the battle of yavin. so, why NOT let luke stay with relatives?

finti
I think Vader was unaware of the fact that he had children at all.
He learned about Luke after the battle of Yavin.

sand person no. 10
i suspect that vader did know that he had offspring, hence his telling luke that he was his father, i suspect anakin saw the birth of luke, perhaps hidden in the shadows somewhere after he had turned, when he saw it was a boy he left without seeing the birth of leia. perhaps his fall into the lava (or whatever) damaged his short term memory and so he forgot about his children.

You'd put the baby on tatooine on so that the cast could get a suntan. big grin
I did disagree with lucas putting anakin on tatooine, why have such a large galaxy and only use 12 planets? we don't know that owen is related to vader, although it seems likely.

yerssot
Vader was just unaware of offspring, so he didn't searched for it

finti
How does that seems likely????????????????????

Dim
Because we know spoilers and character development history.

finti
ok and how are they related then?????????????????

Dim
stepbrothers...

finti
stephbrothers are no related.

Dim
Well, I think a lot of people feel related to their stepsiblings..


Now you're nit picking..

yerssot
but it makes them family!

bigsef2
same mother. different fathers. half-brothers. thats related.

jedi212guy
So is Anakin not going to know that Padme is pregnant? How can he not know? Lucas is going to have a tough time with this one, me thinks.

yerssot
he knows that he has a son, but doesn't know he has a daughter, probably because they changed the name of Leia to Organa

bigsef2
lucas isnt going to have such a hard time explaining. theyre married right? theyre obviously having sex. anakin leaves with obi-wan to fight in the clone wars. padme finds out shes pregnant. she is able to tell anakin that shes pregnant but hes stuck fighting. anakin turns to the dark side. ben kicks anakins ass. padme gives birth and she has twins. obiwan takes luke with him to alderaan and padme takes leah with her to alderaan where she gives him to be raised by the organas.

finti
Half brothers/sisters are related through a common parent.
You are related through bloodline, not what was brought into the family by your steph dad/mom. Only bloodline counts, I get your drift but steph brothers/sisters will never be relatives no matter how much you argue it.

So if Owen is going to be Anakin stephbrother ,fine. But they aint related.

jedi212guy
True. They can feel related, which by the way I doubt is true with Owen and Anakin, but they still aren't.

bigsef2
how can two people who have the SAME MOTHER not be related? does no one understand that?

Julie
I understand. They are related.

You can put the lightsaber down now....step away slowly

bigsef2
no, the lightsaber must stay up until everyone bows down before me.

yerssot
yeah right! you can't defend one who has more posts!

ToMacco
Obi-wan knows what he's doing. That's why he lives to the OT.

finti
Steph siblings dont share a common parent, half sibling does there is a slight diffrence there bigsef.
We were talking about Anakin and Owen beeing steph brothers NOT HALF BROTHERS. So maybe it is your understanding that is a little unclear here. roll eyes (sarcastic)

queeq
So, not BLOOD-RELATED is the key word here.

finti
There is no other way of being related than through blood, so they might be stephbrothers but thats it.

darthyogi

finti
well i would not put money on it

jedi212guy
I'll put finti's money on it. So why don't they all gang up on Palpatine if they know about him? I don't think your theory works. C-3PO is in TPM just as eye-candy. There is no deeper meaning.

darthyogi
Did I say they knew about Palpatine? roll eyes (sarcastic)

I'm suggesting they knew Anakin embraced the dark side knowing that one day his own son - under the guidance of OBI and Yoda, and with 3PO in tow, as agreed and planned - will provide him with a route out, at which time he will defeat the Emperor, end the sith line, bring balance to the force and 'return' as a jedi.

I didn't even mention Palpatine...

Julie
Your theory's a nice thought, but I thinkyou may be trying too hard. I like it all the same, though.

Ushgarak
The theory does not work because it buggers up the central development point for Anakin. He turnd to EVIL. He duid not do it in some form of cunning plan to defeat the Emperor. The whole point was that he actually turned BAD_ genuinely and for real, not for any higher motive.

The whole dramatic sweep is ruined if you just think Anakin turned bad as some sort of plan.

Julie
Also, a valid point. Ahh the choices we make. Who'd have thought that a sweet little boy like Anakin Akywalker would turn out to be a Dark warrior?

Ushgarak
Indeed! That's why GL make Jake Lloyd so sweet.

Julie
I actually think that he should have made Anakin a bit older in TPM

Ushgarak
So did GL, at one point- he was originally envisaged at 12 to 14. But GL made him younger because he thought it would accentuate the pain of being seperated from his mother.

Julie
A well thought out plan...

The whole age gap b/t Anakin and Amidala is there now though.

Ushgarak
It is, though I find people are surprised when they hear that Amidala was only meant to be 14.

bigsef2
about what was said earlier about obiwan and uncle owen. my understanding is perfectly fine. they are NOT step brothers. from what i have read in other posts, shmi marries another man and has a son called owen. that makes owen and anakin half brothers. so kiss my tattooed sith ass.

Ushgarak
Nah. The man she marries already has a son named Owen. You can tell; Owen and Beru have already been cast and you can see their pics at the site- they are clearly young adults.

So, they are step-brothers, not half-brothers.

finti
How about No
Owen is probably older than Anakin.
So bigsef explain it again please....

Dim
And without the ass-kissing part this time..

yerssot
yeah! with more ass-kissing!

darthyogi
The whole dramatic sweep is ruined if you just think Anakin turned bad as some sort of plan.

True, and a good point, but I believe it all depends what the Prophecy says - and we don't know that yet (or at least I don't - I still haven't read the scriptment so I could be shooting blind I admit). But maybe the Prophecy goes along the lines of "The chosen one will succumb to evil, and having experienced evil, and both the light and dark sides of the Force, will bring balance".

Of course this is complete speculation, I know that, but the key piece of missing information at the moment is the Prophcy and the fate of the chosen one. I don't accept that as the chosen one Anakin just lost his way, almost missed the opportunity to fulfill his fate, and then came to his senses at the last minute.

I suspect - strongly - that the Prophecy will state that the chosen one will experience both the good and evil of the Force in order to achieve balance.

So do I think Anakin turned bad as some sort of plan? Yes I do, absolutely, and the plan is the Prophecy, the will of the Force, the fate of the chosen one.

I concede, it's not necessarily the case that Anakin was aware of this. Maybe the council keep Qui-Gon's (and maybe even their own) suspicion that Anakin is the chosen one to themselves. Maybe they don't tell him.

But then there's the line in the trailer: "Anakin, you're not the most powerful jedi" (not verbatum but to that effect) but it suggests that either Anakin knows he is suspected of being the chosen one, or Amidala does.

I just think it would be more dramatic and statisfying if Anakin joined Sidious and the dark side believing he was the chosen one and by doing so was fufilling his destiny. Maybe the Jedi aren't as convinced as he is? Maybe the Jedi don't think he is the chosen one and try to stop him taking this all on himself. Maybe that's why Anakin and Obi-Wan duel - Anakin is hell-bent on seeing through what he has convinced himself is his destiny (rightly or wrongly) and the Jedi council, Obi-Wan included, think that the risk of playing one of their most powerful members ("His midichlorian count is off the scale" - again, probably not verbatum) into the hands of the Emperor?

Having failed to stop him, however, the Jedi would then decide the only course of action and hope for Anakin is to act as if Anakin were the chosen one, hide his children and conspire to turn him back to the good side by using them to remind them of his past.

Or is that just stating the obvious now..?


confused

bigsef2
im sure ushgarak will point out all the ways that theory is absolutely ludicrous, but ill let him do that. he would shoot down youre theory alot more soundly than i could. suffice to say, thats the craziest theory i ever heard.

mah
yes, yes. that theory simply isn't possible.

Ushgarak
Hmm- I have a reputation as a plan shooter, eh?

Well, anyway, let's take a look at this.

First of all, the idea of needing to combine ing the experience of both he Light and Dark Sides of the Force- something the EU experimented in, to no good effect- is not something I see GL using. For a start, it smacks of the whole 'literal balance' theory (that Anakin balances evil and good in the Universe, which is nonsense, and then goes on saying things like by wiping out the Jedi he helped bring balance and so on, which is all crap, as GL has pretty much described).

Secondly, it still removes the drama of Luke's actions in the OT- which is that all was lost when it started. Anakin, the one guy who could have defeated the Emperor, had failed, and turned. Obi-Wan and Yoda are carrying on in the desperate hope that Luke can somehow defeat the Emperor himself. But he cannot; there was simply no time for him to become powerful enough. But Luke achieves what Obi-Wan never thought possible- to bring back Anakin, who achieves his destiny after all by killing the Emperor.

Remember, this is an unexpected reverse. It was not what was meant to happen all along. If the others had had their way then Anakin would have struck down the Emperor without all that turning nonsense. It was NOT how it was supposed to happen.

I am afraid, DY, that the idea that Anakin simply went wrong and then was redeemed at the last moment is pretty much the whole direction the films go in. As GL describes it, it is a story about how a good man turns bad and is redeemed by his son. If in ANY way his turning bad was deliberate or necessary, then the impact of this failure of Anakin's is totally lost and the theme of the sotry is destroyed.

Meanwhile, Amidala's line in the trailer is 'You are not all-powerful'. Anakin respons that he 'should be'. This isn't anything to do with the Prophecy; it's just an example of Anakin's impateince. He wants to be able to do anything, but can't.

Really, if Anakin simply joins Sidious as part of a long-term plan, then the films wouldn't be as they are.

jedi212guy
Anakin already knows that he is supposedly the "chosen one." That's why he's so cocky in AOTC. Remember in TPM that he hears Qui-Gon and Mace arguing. Qui-Gon states clearly, "He IS the chosen one. You must recognize it." Anakin knows he has huge potential, and hates how OB1 is slowing him down. He wants to fully realize his potential, and THAT'S why goes to the Dark Side.

Ushgarak
Fear as well, of course, from the Mother link.

finti
he has the comment " Im gonna be the most powerful jedi ever."

Not to Jedi that one

jedi212guy
What do you mean?

finti
He has an ambition to become the most powerful jedi ever.
That is kind of dark side ambitions.

darthyogi

yerssot
well, everyone is hoping something is going to happen that will shock you (and please no sidi is anakins father!)

Ushgarak
Well, the idea that there is nothing to be learnt from the PT is not a rare criticism. Mind you, we have already learnt a bit- like that the Emperor was once a Darth named Sidious, and a little about how the Sith work.

Looking at Star Wars as a story about people rather than events, we get the full story of Anakin- something we knew virtually nothing about, which is absolutely vital, when you look at it.

And looking at it events wise, we still get VERY vital gaps filled in, like just how the heck WERE the all-powerful Jedi defeated?

Suroprise-wise, though, we get to see those unknown core parts of the story. Like just what the deal with the ghost terick is, what IS the Prophecy... heck, these prequels are talling us exactly what the Star Wars story actually is!

Granted, knowing how it all ends already is a bit off-putting, but GL is writing the new films with this in mind, and I think they are more than entertaining and intersting enough for me.

yerssot
the part of the Chosen One, wasn't that made up for TPM? I think GL said in the OT that Anakin was a powerfull Jedi

Julie
So what? You can't be a powerful Jedi and the "chosen one" at the same time?

bigsef2
dont worry darth yogi, there will be 3 'surprises' in the coming episodes:

1. sidious will tell anakin that he genetically engineered him to be the most powerful sith ever.

2. obi-wan will apparently kill anakin at the end of episode III.

3. mace windu will sacrifice himself to save luke and leia.

we have much to look forward to.

yerssot
and how much is already known? nothing

I disagree with your first point and we know nothing about your third point...

bigsef2
i disagreed with my first point as well at first. but aside from the agruments that i already made for it in other posts, the sith musich plays in the background when shmi is on the screen. and if you look at the ceiling in the skywalker home, its got the same sith markings that maul tatooed on his face. sidious put them there to subconsciously prepare anakin to be a sith, to bring a dark side aura, if you will, into the room.

in addition, star wars movies follow a pattern, and things in episodes IV-VI are meant to reflect events in episodes I-III. ex: anakin losing his arm in AOTC, luke losing his hand in ESB. anakin and lukes lives are meant to parallel. in ANH, we thought there was no mystery to lukes father. in ESB, we had a big surprise. in TPM, we here that anakin has no father. riiiiiiiiiiight. lucas is not going to leave it at that.

sidious genetically engineered anakin to be the most powerful jedi ever, then placed him on tatooine, an outer rim planet so that the jedi could not find him at a young age and train him. anakin would grow up without being taught by yoda to learn to control his feelings. what do you get when you have a jedi with the highest midichlorian count whos emotions control his feelings and actions? you get a sith. the most powerful sith ever.

darthyogi
I'd go along with that - in fact I've mentioned something close myself so point in the past - except I don't believe Sidious would just leave Anakin without putting some sort of guardian or spy-observer in place. If Anakin is so central to Sidious' plans wouldn't he want to monitor his progress? Be able to step in if something went wrong and so on? And that would mean he would also probably have been informed when QGJ turned up. Surely somthing like would be worth reporting?

A worthy theory though, and one that would satisfy my need for a twsit.

wink

yerssot
this doesn't compute with the prophecy of the Chosen One, if Anakin was cloned there was no theory...
And before you start, GL said that Anakin was the Chosen One and not Luke.

And someone having no father indicates that he is special, not that he is cloned...

darthyogi
Sorry Yerssot.

How silly are we! sad

yerssot
bwahahahahaha!
kneel for your master!

Ushgarak
Yes, I'm afraid that the whole 'no father, child of the MCs' thing is almost certainly to be taken as read. And Sidious engineering Anakin is WAY out there. This again is making Anakin's fall FAR too planned. It was NOT planned, not even by the bad guys. He should have been good. But something went wrong.

And yerssot is right, as the Chosen One, there is no way Sidious could have made him!

jedi212guy
You're such a genius!! big grin

yerssot
hey! I was first! ow... I see... the grin....

Julie
yessot, are you feeling left out?... It's ok sarcasm is always welcomed here.

WE'll give you the genius credit anyway.

yerssot
We? nownow, who is getting delousions of grandeur?

bigsef2
unless you have a copy of the prophecy reguarding the chosen one, then you or i, or anyone else, cant say what the specific details are. at NO PLACE in TPM does ANYONE say that the chosen one would have no father. and if memory serves me, when qui-gon told the council about anakin, he didnt say a thing about anakins parentage. he said that he had found a vergence in the force. by saying sidious genetically engineered anakin, i am not debating that anakin is not the chosen one. he is, without any doubt. but we have no reason to beleive that the prophecy required that the chosen one have no father.

and even if it did. it would still be true. from a certain point of view. smile

bigsef2

yerssot
but how can a profacy from years ago predict cloning?
and IF it's about cloning, why is the JC and all the other Jedis not cloning like crazy?

Ushgarak
Look at QUi-Gon's conversation with the Council again, bigsef. Qui-Gon clearly tells them that it is possible that Anakin was conceived by the midi-chlorians, at which point Mace asks if he is referring to the Prophecy of the Chosen One.

Sorry, but there you have it.

bigsef2
i didnt miss that, i just didnt want to put too much in my post. "concieved by the midi-chlorians" is a rather vague statement when you think about it. we dont know how old the prophecy is, but its probably likely that whoever prophesied didnt know a think about genetic engineering, probalby because it wasnt around yet. suppose you are a jedi and you have a vision of a human being grown in some tank and planted in the womb of a woman, and you later see this person bring balance to the force. youd have NO IDEA what it was you were seeing. and if palpatine did create anakin this way, he OBVIOUSLY put alot of midi-chlorians in anakin, a very high concentration of them.

so, as i like to say, the prophecy was in fact true, "from a certain point of view." which brings me to another support for my theory. if you pay attention to the wording in ROTJ, ben says "youre going to find that alot of the truths you cling to depend largely on your own point of view." to me, that is a VERY signifigant statement. especially the TRUTHS YOU CLING TO. ben is making that statement to luke as if it is something he learned from personal experience. some truths obi-wan clinged to turned out to be false. until he decided to look at them from a different point of view. in ROTJ, hes passing along that wisdom to luke.

now i realize that this theory is just that, a theory. but i think theres something to it. we hear nothing of prophecys or chosen ones in the original trilogy. while you might argue that lucas hadnt developed those ideas before TPM, i would disagree. i think lucas had it planned out, and the reason they arent mentioned in the original trilogy is that the prophecy doesnt turn out exactly the way the jedi thought they would in TPM.

yerssot
big, you can't insert midi-chlorians!

and the lesson he gave in Rotj was just because he "lied" to Luke about his father in ANH, do you think that Luke would go with him if he said the plain truth? don't think so...

Why is there nothing mentioned about the prophecy? because it turned out the biggest failure the Jedi ever had!

bigsef2
first of all, who says you cant insert midichlorians? they are "microscopic life forms." qui-gon took some out of anakin when he tested his blood. theyre microbes. you can move them whereever you want. so palpatine could have easily bred anakin to have lots of midichlorians.

secondly, you completely missed the point about obi-wan telling luke about the "truths we cling to"

finally, the prophecy was not a failure of the jedi. it just didnt turn out they way theyd thought

yerssot
if you can insert midi-chlorians, you would get stupid results:
then everyone can get Force-sensitive, and everyone can get all powerfull... why isn't everyone Force-sensitive or a Force addict(ancient weapons and a lot of hockey religions are no match against a good blaster at your side; kid) ? Because it's impossible

Ushgarak
Right, to deal with the inserting MC's thing...

yerssot is right. I mwan, you an LITERALLY take MC's and forcer them into other people, but it won;t do much.

Remember, the whole MC's thing is just about symbiosis and balance. Midi-chlirians are a SYMPTOMN of Force power, not a CAUSE.

The fallacy is to think that powerful Jedi have lots of MCs which then give them their force powers. This is NOT so, has nothing to do with balance and, as yerss says, you have stupid situations with people asking if you can steal a Jedi's power by having his MC's inserted into you. Which is preposterous.

The way it works is this: A person is born with force talent. THIS attracts midi-chlorians, who need people sensitive to the Force to live, and in return they help you translate that talent into practical powers.

Midi-chlorians are naturally occuring life-forms that live in harmony in their chosen environment. NO such lifeform actually creates the environment around it.

So if you insert MC's into someone they will just die or leave; if you take them from someone who should have them more will come back. And the MC's inserted into another's body would not give him powers; without the natural force power/talent/link they are useless.

The amount of MC's inside you will always adjust to the natural balane that belongs in your body.

So, genetically engineering somone to have MC's would have no effect.

That said, what we don't know yet is if you can genetically engineer someone to be powerful in the Force (which would cause that person to then attract MC's). So bigsef's theory is still possible.

But I still very much doubt it.

jedi212guy
No offense intended, Ush, but I think that you have put just a little too much thought into all of this. I don't if GL has even thought this much about it. sad

bigsef2
thanks ush, i had never understood the whol MC thing until then. i never liked the idea anyways. so really then, if MCs dont create the force, whats the point of them? i dont buy into all that "listening to the will of the force" crap. yoda and mace didnt, so i dont. that aside, i think its possible as ush said, that palpatine could have just engineered anakin to be very force sensitive. EVERY natural-born trait a person has in a result of genetics. you can genetically engineer any natural born trait. i thought about the problem of tons of force sensitive people walking around, but that was easily enough solved: genetic engineering is a fairly new technology. i mean, cloning was around in the sw universe, but there werent 100000000s of clones running around doing all sorts of manual labor.

my whole point is that theres alot more to an anakins parentage than meets the eye. we really have only two viable choices. either the explaination in TPM stands and anakin was conceived by the midi-chlorians, or he wasnt. and since he has no real father (unless shmi was lying and his father was some space pirate or something) he must be an artificial creation. who else would artificially create anakin but palpatine. its a radical idea, but it makes sense.

yerssot
sorry, but I don't like the theory.

Why are Jedis not cloning like crazy then? not because it's a new technology (you can't start from scratch and do it succesfully in less then 10 years)
But because it's just impossible to be force sensative sith it

bigsef2
the jedi probably never thought of genetically enginneering more jedi. if they did, it probably goes against there code somehow. and it is just a movie after all. only bad guys think of dastardly things to do. :-)

Ushgarak
212, actually, it looks more complex than it is. I only have to describe it in detail because a lot of people have the wrong end of the stick. The idea that the MCs are a lifeform that live in balance is very simple. All I mainly did is repeat some basic biology.

So then, the point of the MCs? That's not 100% clear, but what is clear is that a. GL likes symbiosis and b. he wanted a way in which the will of the Force could be heard.

I don't remember Windu and Yoda denying the idea of MCs in any way. Why would they know Yoda's MC count if it wasn't the accepted theory?

However, Qui-Gon was a very impulsive person and presumably listened to the Force (as said by the MC's) far more than others.

Well, I still think the explnation in TPM will stand.

Julie
Here's my 2 cents.... I do not believe that Anakin was cloned.
Anakin's parentage may be a mystery, but I don't think that palpy had anything to do with it. I believe he's more of the opportunistic type smile

bigsef2
no one has said anakin was cloned. the term is genetically engineered.

and about the MC's, on the official website it says that qui-gon was rogue because he BELEIVED in the "living force," whereas every other jedi, including mace and yoda, beleived in the unifying force. to me this means that yoda and mace dont deny the existence of midichlorians, but they didnt beleive them to be "alive" in the sense of having sentience (spelling) and having the ability to tell jedi the will of the force. to the best of my understanding, qui-gon is the only jedi who beleives one can listen to the will of the force.

Ushgarak
It's all a bit speculative really. Espedcially that unifying Force vs. Livin force stuff. That started out as a fan rumour; I was so surprised when the official thread mentioned it that I actually started a thread about it, a few pages back.

finti
if we start treathing SW as movies for KIDS and then try again with the theorys, only a great deal less copmplex

yerssot
no not the unifying- living thing again!

Ushgarak
Look, my 'theory' is just basic biology combined with what is explained in the film. The over-complication came from people reading FAR too much into the midi-chlorians.

yerssot
*special news bulletin*
to read more about midi-chlorians, visit the tread at the EPI, EPIV-VI thread...


and heck the force is the force

Julie
Thanks for clearing that up for us smile

yerssot
and I started that thread!

smile

Julie
You troublemaker smile

yerssot
Han Solos voice:

I know

Julie
smile big grin stick out tongue

yerssot
have you checked it now?

Julie
maybe...maybe not

yerssot
then life forever in ignorance!

Julie
Oh dear me....what shall we do with ingorance?

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