Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

If you trace the chain of events back far enough, the fall of the jedi is all qui-gons fault. DAMN him for having rogue ideas!!!

Qui-gon beleives in the living force. the jedi council doesnt. he is defiant, does not follow some part of the code, probably in his beleif in the living force is part of it. he trains obiwan. yoda senses qui-gons same defiant attitude in obi-wan. obi-wan arrogantly assumes to take anakin as his padawan learner, even if he must without the councils approval. although he does get the councils approval, he still has qui-gons defiance. that no doubt affects how he trains anakin. anakin doesnt learn the control necessary to remain a jedi, so he turns into a sith and plays a pivotal role in wiping out the jedi.

"i thought i could train him just as well as yoda. i was wrong."

Yeah, but then he kills the emperor. The Jedi would have been wiped out with or without Vader, but only Vader could destroy the emperor.

i think a few thousand jedi could have killed the emperor with ease before he ever did any of the things we saw in the OT. but anakin wiped them out so they wouldnt have the chance.

Aside from that, his ass would have blown up on the second death star.

So you don't agree that Anakin brought balance to the force? Or that he was the chosen one?

If you go along with this line of thinking.....It's all Padme Amidala's fault, because she moved for a vote of no confidence that led to Sen Palp becoming Chancellor Palpatine.

I think there were a lot of factors that combined to allow the jedi and old republic to fall.

It was Palpatines fault. No one elses. He set the whole thing in motion, and the only one who could stop him was Anakin. And he eventually did. If Anakin hadn't come around, some other Sith would have gone around and wiped out the Jedi. But Qui-gon could sense Anakin was the chosen one.

I agree....it's the bad guy's thought and no one else's.

well, it's the fault of the Force

if anakin had taken action sooner, he could have prevented the fall of the jedi. qui-gon corrupted obiwans attitude, therefore when he trained anakin, he couldnt do it as well as yoda, and he failed.

it's everyones fault ok?

Qui-Gon's ONLY mistake was dying, for which he can hardly be blamed. He would have brought up Anakin PROPERLY. Sadly, Obi-Wan did not do as well, trying to hold onto a promise to his dying master to a task that was too great for him- to train the most powerful (potential) Jedi ever, starting late.

GL has a quote in which he makes this clear- where Qui-GHon's decision is a rsiky one, but ULTIMATELY right.

So in fact, Qui-Gon saved the Galaxy by bringing Anakin into the equation. The clear impliication of GL's statement is that The Emperor COULD have done it without Vader. So if Qui-Gon had not found Anakin, the Sith would NEVER have been stopped.

That it did not go ENTRIELY to plan is the plot of the films. But it could have been much worse.

That's what I said. Ush, we agree on something?

i dont know about any of GLs comments on the matter. we do know, however, that qui-gon is a rogue jedi. he did not follow the jedi code. he was rebellious against the jedi council. so by saying qui-gon was right, that would mean the council was wrong. which would mean mace was wrong. and also that yoda was wrong. by the evidence in TPM, we are given the strong impresion that yoda is right.

I see......yoda's a smart jedi

Yoda wasn't right and he wasn't wrong. He said Anakin's future was clouded (although we know his future without the Force)

Mace was just going with Yoda. The future was clouded, so he said "No, the boy shall not be trained."

Qui-Gon was right. He could sense that the boy was the Chosen One and that he should be trained. Anakin met and got to know Qui-Gon better than Obi.

Obi-Wan agreed with his Master while Qui-Gon was dying. The rogue ideas of Qui-Gon rubbed on Obi and Obi agreed, although first he went with the coucil. Obi-Wan wasn't as good a trainer as a trainee to Qui-Gon and Yoda.

The Tusken Raiders were also involved in this. Though they didn't know any better, they were encouraging the wrath of a young Jedi. Ouch!

Palpatine has the biggest part in this. He persuaded Padme into calling a vote of No Confidence. Then he was a nominee for Supreme Chancellor and became that because of the pitee for the Nubians. Plus, he created that pitee by hiring the Trade Federation to blockade Naboo, then invade it.
Later (sometime between III-IV or in III) he succeeded in turning Anakin. Anakin had grown to hate the Jedi because they had kept him away from his mother and because of the things Cliegg Lars said. He used Anakin (now Vader) to kill off the Jedi.

That's what I think. So Palpy's wrong the whole time, Qui's right, Obi's right, the Tuskens are stupid, the Council don't know, and that's that.

Wow...that's a lot ....but you did say similar things....earlier I had said that we couldn't pin it all on one person........

Never stir up the wrath of a young jedi

replying to ush's comment about quigon mistake being to die...

he wouldnt have died if darth maul hadnt killed him. darth maul wouldnt have killed him if padme and panaka and his toadies had shot the crap out of him when darth maul appeared. i mean, he was just standing there, didnt even have his lightsaber out, they could have shot the mess out of him. so, i guess its really theyre fault.

and Maul didn't had to be there if Padma stayed on Coruscant etc...

I believe they were in shock, and Maul would have avoided the blasts anyway.....would you have reacted any faster or better if you saw that lovely visage glaring at you????

heck Maul can kill a jedi master, fence off two jedi...
what would a few shots do?

probably nothing....presisely my point....

Maybe he would just have caught them on his palm like Vader did in ESB.

no, there were like 20 guys with blasters aimed at him and qui-gon was just like, "no, leave this ***** to us." they could have shot him up. no jedi could deflect that many bolts. quigon and anakin couldnt hold off fire from 4 guns from the destroyers. what makes you think one sith can deflect fire from 20 guns?!

I believe we're back to the whole shock thing.....If they could have corridinated an attack in the few seconds that nobody moved....it might have worked...but I don't think they could b/c they were shocked by the suddeness of Maul's appearance.

not 20, 8

they werent shocked like they were terrified. they just didnt know what to do. qui-gon should have just said blast him, and let that be it

Actually, GL said that the Council and even Yoda make errors in this matter.

Qui-Gon WAS right, but in his own style. Which would have been fine, if he had lived.

As for Maul... oh, COME on! These guys are NEVER surprised! They can sense the near future, remember? If Panaka and co had tried to shoot him, he would have had his blades out in time. Or, for that matter, speeded out the way.

Moral of the story? You need HUGE numbers to kill a Jedi/Sith if you are not a Jedi! Which Panaka and co did not have.

and he has a double lightsabre...

come on! maul sure as hell didnt sense obiwan force reach for his sabre, jump up and cut him in half!!!! he just stood there and took it like a baby.

QGJ and OB1 ran from the two Destroyers. If that were correct Ush, OB1 could have held out against them easily so QGJ could open the door.
I think the reason they didn't open fire was simply because the Jedi said thay'd take care of him. Stopping Maul was not their aim anyway, the viceroy was so they went for that.

sorry, ush, but hes right. i mean, he agrees with me, so how couldnt he be?

they ran because they couldn't destroy them, because they had shieldgenerators

That's not the point. If Ush is right, OB1 could have held out against them until QGJ managed to open the door. I doubt those destroyers would have continued firing when there was a hole in that door with the danger of hitting the Neimodians.

well, one can shoot at OB1, who can't destroy it, and the other fires at QGJ...

I don;t agree. Obi-Wan is not the blocker than Qui-Gon is- watch Qui-Gon blocking bolts on Obi-Wan's behalf. It is perhaps the one area that Obi-Wan was deficient in in that movie.

Standing against those droidekas was a pointless risk when there was almost certainly more stuff coming. QUi-Gon decided to move.

The issue of whether a fully Jedi can block loads of bolts at once is CLEARLY seen in the film where none of the battle droids come even close to overwhleming Qui-Gon et al. They clearly can. And so could Maul.

In any case, FORGET the specifics of it. GL has introduced a VERRY clear Jedi superiority! Unless you have a full scale army, non-Jedi CANNOT kill Jedi!

don't believe that!

Maul had fear and the droiddekas could eventually winn against the Jedi if they didn't run

Maul had fear??

And there is no evidence that the droidekas would win. As Qui-Gon said, it was a stand-off.

Ush, you are way wrong when you said unless its an army, non-jedi cant kill a jedi. remember this quote from TPM where anakin is questioning qui-gon about his lightsaber? QGJ:"maybe i killed a jedi and took it." AS:"no one can kill a jedi." QGJ:"I wish that were so." Qui-gon is implying that it is POSSIBLE that he could have killed a jedi and took his saber. one person could have killed a jedi and took his saber. while qui-gons statement was broader and more for the purposes of foreshadowing, the fact remains that non-jedi can kill jedi.

and if youve read the scriptment, at one point in AOTC Obiwan battles Jango Fett ONE ON ONE. and at one point, Fett starts firing on Obi-wan with two blasters and its TOO MUCH for obiwan and he has to take cover for a second because there are TOO MANY bolts to deflect. if obiwan did not take cover, jango would kill him.

If qui-gon and obiwan did not run away, the destroyers would have killed them. Maul could NOT deflect that many bolts with just his lightsaber. if you want to get technical about it. lets say you have just six people firing on maul. now say they all fire at exactly the same time. thats six bolts at maul, and he can only deflect two (im being liberal because he has a double-edged saber). Im sorry to burst peoples bubbles, but jedi are NOT THAT powerful. although, as quigon would say, i wish that were so."

Qui-Gon just meant it was not totally impossdibe for Jedi to die. But the fact theyt have acquired an invulnerable reputation suggests something, no?

And Jango Fett is UNIQUE! The best of the best, the elite of the elite. That most amazing thing, a non-jedi who can fight a Jedi. Perhaps the only such person there is.

Qui-Gon said clearly it was a standoff- we have no reason to think anything different. No reason at all to think the droidekas would hasve killed them.

And I repeat- PLENTY of reason to think that Jedi can deflect what appears to be overwhelming laser fire!

And asd for your 'six at once' thing, I keep saying- Jedi can see ther near future! He wouldn't NEED to deflect all six. He would be in a position where most miss and he wouldn't have to deflect that many at all.

Jedi ARE that powerful. GL has made this amazingly clear! Good lord, how much of Qui-Gon fighting did you have to see to see just how amaxzingly powerful they are! But they do have obvious limits- as Qui-Gon said, he couldn't win a war for her...

sorry, I ment Maul had fear with him

stand off my yellow but! He couldn't win, therefor he ran away

Well, that's just you. That's not what we are meant to think. The script says standoff.

Maul had fear with him? Fear makes him strong!

I'm sorry, but unique examples like Jango aside, we have had it made abundantly clear that Jedi are nigh-on invulnerable. Even Boba Fett was easily dealt with by a half-trained Jedi- as wee a small horde of pirates.

just because jango fett is in the star wars movies and pretty much kicks obiwans ass, doesnt mean he is unique. hes just the character thats in the movie. thats it. and as far as your jedi predicting the near future bit, it doesnt help much in predicting something moving the speed of light, like a laser bolt. why was it so hard for obiwan to predict where TWO laser bolts are going in AOTC. Im sorry, Ush, but youre reasoning just doesnt seem to hold up to "reality." granted, this IS a fantasy world, but no human, jedi or not, could deflect 6 bolts coming in at a rate of around 4 a second. im sorry, but unless the people firing have REALLY bad aim, atleast ONE of these bolts would hit. Aside from that, if your reasoning were true, a jedi could deflect a million bolts at once because he could predict the future. OBVIOUSLY there is some point where a jedi can simply be overwhelmed. sometimes numbers do have the advantage and theres nothing you can do about it. "we can only protect you. we cant fight a war for you." there simply arent enough jedi to protect the galaxy against threats. jedi are not all powerful. and amidala and her troops could have blasted maul to hell. :-)

That is very good reasoning there big. But, this is a fantasy world and 6 bolts isn't too bad for a jedi.

who says?

No, Qui-Gon said it was not impossible that a Jedi could be KILLED by someone. And he was not aware of Sith at that time, so obviously Jedi CAN be killed, it just isn't easy.



I don't think that line says they aren't powerful. That has to do with the mandate Jedi have. They can keep the peace and guard justice, but they cannot fight whole wars for separate planets. That would endanger their impartial position in the universe as guardians of peace and justice.

sorry, Ush, that's what I ment!
(djee! I have to learn to express myself!)

I'm sorry, but QGJ said it was a stand-off, not the script. It was HIS decision

Yes, yerss, but when a film gives you a line like that, it is also for the benefit of the audience understanding the situation. Film can't explain things like books can; the explanation goes into the lines given. I don;t see how the Jedi were in any danger from the droidekas so long as they kept their guards up, but that wasn't getting the Jedi anywhere, of course.

Bigsef, your answer makes no sense, The Jedi have shown a continual ability to block blaster bolts, regardless of their speed. As LW says, this is a fantasy world and Jedi do fantasitcal speed. I mean, did you see how many people Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan took on? Not a SINGLE shot got through!

And I SAID there was a limit. I said they could not face off against entire armies. So please read my posts properly.

But Darth Maul was, again, clearly presented as being an unstoppable problem for anyone except a Jedi. The Naboo could NOT have killed him. If they could have done the whole threat factor of the film is ruined.

queeq- yes, I knew he was talking about being killed. I maintain that he meant it was simply not utterly impossible. But I am sure he was talking about VAST odds. Qui-Gon was utterly confident in all other situations. 'They will not be a problem', he says of the small army of battle droids in the Naboo hangars, that the Royal Guard seemed unwilling to take on.

They ARE superior. And this is not mad Jedi love. I just go on the facts presented. And that is how they have been presented.

bigsef- if Jango is the best non-Jedi, yet he gets beaten, how does that place EVERYONE ELSE who would dare take on a Jedi? I already commented on how easily Boba Fett wwas dealt with, and he was meant to be the best too.

Face it. Jedi are nigh-on unstoppable until you bring enormous armies to bear.

Jedis can make mistakes, and when they stand there for 535454564 hours and the droiddekas are still shooting at them with their shields, they COULD get tired, letting their defence down and could get shot, and after a while they could get killed...

my point is that there is a point where a jedi can simply be outnumbered. and i dont think you need an army of 1000 people to get the better of one jedi. even in a fantasy world, thats unreasonable. and we have NEVER EVER in the history of star wars see a jedi take on more than 10 people or so SIMULTANEOUSLY, BY HIMSELF. Anything anyone may propose beyond that is simply hypothetical.

We havent seen AOTC yet, and im not sure about the numbers of droids vs the number of jedi in the genosis arena. you may argue that thats because there are an army of droids there, but guess what? theres an ARMY of jedi, too. ive heard rumors from hundreds to THOUSANDS of jedi are there and they get slaughtered by freaking droids. Weve seen from TPM that two jedi can take on a fair number of droids at a time, but i honestly doubt there will even be 100 droids to every jedi in the arena. i doubt there will be 50 droids to every jedi. but they still all die.

And as far as QGJ's comment about not being able to fight a war for Amidala, I don't take that to mean they dont get involved in conflicts like that where one party is clearly wrong. In the scriptment for AOTC, yoda clearly expands on that thought when he says that there simply arent enough jedi to deal with dooku and the planets allied with him. thats why they need the clones. Its not that the jedi arent willing to fight for justice, there just arent enough of them.

One things: the scriptment is still NOT something we can base ourselfs on!

and besides, your last remark... it was answered by the JC on sw.com, anymore cannon is something we cannot get

well if the jedi dont get involved in conflicts, then why would they be in the genosis arena?

as far as the official things go ... there is no arena...

is that kind of like, "there is no spoon"?

We're really not sure if it is a whole amry of Jedi, either. Nor do we know how many die. I think that overwhelming numbers are pretty much the deal here.

Well, that's how I think it works, anyway.

so the universe is not quite as you thought it was. you had better rearrange your beliefs, then, because you certainly cant rearrange the universe

Well, it could well be a small army of Jedis, or even Padawans...

I have NO idea what you mean, bigsef. I see no reason to change my beliefs. I still think you are the one who is wrong.

actually its a quote from isaac asimov. and i actually just said that because i was slightly drunk last night when i got home and it just seemed like something fun to write down. what are you saying i am wrong about, though? i, atleast have the scriptment to base my ideas on. while its not cannon, it does give us a good idea of what to expect. the jedi get lit up by a bunch of freaking droids and we have no reason to beleive that there's a whole ARMY of droids FOR EVERY jedi. I hate to burst your bubble, but the jedi are not as bad-ass as you think they are. name just one instance in any star wars movie where we see a jedi take on more than 10, or even 5, people at a time. we dont see it. Jedi aren't wimps, but theyre also not nearly invinvible supermen, either.

Luke on the sail barge was 5...

And let me say again: the scriptment can STILL be wrong!

Luke didnt take on that many AT ONE TIME, and ALONE. He had the help of Lando, Han, Chewie, and R2 and Leia to a limited extent. Also, he never had all of them attacking him at once! If memory serves me well, I dont remember Luke in a conflict with more than 3 or 4 at a time. While it's possible there is a brief period where maybe luke is taking on 5 by himself, its certainly not on the multitude of the hundreds or thousands USH says a jedi could handle at once

mind you that Luke was trained by an old man, Vader is more machine and Yoda is +900 years...

i thought about that, but do you think luke is really only like 1/100th the jedi that obiwan or qui-gon or yoda is?

nah; 5/100

Yoda has the highest midi-chlorian count,
Anakin is the Chosen One,
OB1 and QGJ, well, there is a good EU explanation ...

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

it's true

i was saying riiiiiiight about the 5/100 thing and EU explaination

you don't believe me?

i was mostly joking with you. because i dont know of any EU explaination for how much more bad-ass obiwan and yoda and mace are than luke. and also because you said 5/100 as if it were an exact scientifically deduced number.

The scale of the fight is hazy territory. We'll see what the wirght of numbers is.

And why do you keep going on about burating bubbles? You seemed to think the sdame about my beleif in sabre colourts. There are no bubbles to burst. If GL wanted to make the Jedi more crappy I would have accepted that, but I believe from the weigh of evidence before us he has not. I just interpret things as they are; I have no Jedi-loving agenda.

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan took on far more than ten droids on many occasions in TPM.

i dont think the jedi are crappy at all. i think taking on 10 droids is major bad-@$$!!! I just thinking that jedi are more or less invincible is a little too much. aside from that, i mainly think those naboo soldiers could have lit maul up if they wanted to. but they didnt, so it really doesnt matter.

on the DVD GL said something about not wanting them to become superheros...
(well, it's on those 12 part thing, so if someone wants to check it...)

That's the stuff that was on the website.

The point there is that GL doesn't want Jedi to have Superman-like powers such as flight and heat rays and teleportation and so on. Which is fair enough. They are simply fast, skilled and deadly.

yeah! that was indeed what he said! thanx ush

I don't know. The way he said "I wish that were so" almost sounded like he had witnessed it before. I think he did state that under particular circumstances a Jedi could be killed. "Vast odds" is mere speculation when you mean numbers. After all, it took only one young Sith named Maul to kill him..... and a Jedi Padawan to kill Maul... So QGJ was vulnerable. I remember even the novelisation mentioning something about him that he was once a great sabre fighter, but even though he was still one of the best, he had gotten slower. And now look what happens.
So I think Jedi have the weak spots, and that does not necessarily against great numbers.

word

very interesting how to tie quigon w/ the fall of the jedi.

maybe. maybe not. O_o

Maybe his death is more of a forbearing of the doom that will befall the Jedi.

thats the reason the obvious statement was put into the script, but i think it also applies to past experiences.

Qui-Gon's line "If only that were true" in response to Anakin's claims that no-one could a jedi troubled me, too. It smacks of the same sense of fatalistic resignation as Obi-Wan's "IF you strike me donw..."

I think Qui-Gon knew he was close to death. Or perhaps he just had a Jedi friend who he missed - which would perhaps back up speculation about his relationship with Dooku?

It seems common knowledge that Dooku simply left the order, or am i mistaken?

Yes it is common knowledge, but obviously not to all commoners.

stupid idea, actually...

depends on your point of view

like I said: stupid

i think alot of GLs ideas are crap with the PT. OT is by far superiour

Shall we just wait until the PT is entirely finsished maybe?

But that will take a whole other year

Theres no need to wait to know they will be crap. TPM is crap when compared to any OT movie. GL is doing far too much in these movies so he cant focus on what hes best at. Have someone else direct EPIII. Its our only hope

Perhaps you don't get it: SW is a 12 hours movie, every begining isn't great because they need to intro the characters

Perhaps you miss the point. ANH introduced us to characters we had never seen before. but it was still a good movie. There was a good plot and character development. TPM is introducing us to all new characters, but we didnt really get a chance to know them the way we got to know the characters in ANH. When I watch the movie, i really dont care about any of the characters. I cared the first time I saw obi-wan die on the death star. I really didnt give a crap when qui-gon died. You can't argue that being the first Episode is an excuse to have a crappy plot and underdeveloped characters. Its simply bad filmmaking. End of Story.

Well, that's your point, QG dies, you are not sad so it's a crappy movie, right?

its a crappy movie because there was a minimal plot, little character development and even less chemistry between the characters.

minimal plot? saving Naboo, Sith who are rising, the question of the Jedi death, the political carrier of Palpatine...

little character develpment? Darth Sidious? (ok, it's a bit true), Anakin, Jar Jar,...

chemestry: they did almost chop eachothers head off...

compare to the OT and youll understand

My idea is that,Obi wan should respect his Old man,and get the f**k on with it.I hate people who dwell on the past,cos whats done is done.