a jedi never dies...

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bigsef2

ToMacco
No, I seem to remember watching the poor bastard get charred in a fire. Maybe you saw a different version than me. big grin

bigsef2
maybe he dissapeared after that...

ToMacco
Yeah, into ash!

bigsef2
fire IS very symbolic, you know

ToMacco
Uh oh. You're not a pyromaniac are you?

bigsef2
Hahaha. No. In many cultures it symbolizes purification and moving on to another plane of existance. Although i doubt GL will do anything so overtly religious. I think its more likely that dissapearing and returning as a ghost may not be connected afterall...

ToMacco
Lucas isn't bright enough to know that.

bigsef2
While i think he sucks at writing and probably *********, i do beleive him to be intelligent. obviously SOMETHING is up. Neeson hinted that qui-gon will be back. I cant think of a plausible way for it to happen. GL has SOMETHING up his sleeve

(NOTE: KEEP IT CIVILISED IN THE LANGUAGE, NO NEED FOR SUCH WORDING HERE!)

JediOasis
I think he'll reappear as a hologram only. Or maybe some kind of dream sequence.

bigsef2
by hologram, do you mean ghost? because so far, the only jedi who have appeared as a ghost have all dissapeared when they died...

LanceWindu
No I think he means as in a HoloVid. Maybe one that was recorded only days before his death. And the Jedi Council wouldn't give it to OB1 for fear that it could lead him to the Dark Side.

LanceWindu
Is that what you mean JediOasis?

queeq
I want him to return as a ghost. A hologram is not fun enough. I still hope it's Qui-Gon who discovers the ghost thing.

yerssot
well, he HAS to do something good! You could alter it so QG wouldn't have a part in EpI...

Ushgarak
Recorded hologram was a strong rumour, but appears to have had no basis.

Fact is, no-one really has the SLIGHTEST clue on this. A ghost appearance would be intriguing, to say the least.

yerssot
what I'm wondering...
they can make scriptments, spy-pics, heck even a short video, entire castlists but they can't find Lian Neeson anywhere
(makes you think that he is NOT in the movie... *big shock*)

bigsef2
I dont think hes going to be in the movie either. we would know SOMETHING about him going to australia or tunisia or SOMETHING. Although if GL really wants to find some way tosurprise those of us who already know the whole plot for AOTC, i couldnt think of a better surprise.

it would be interesting if qui-gon discovered the ghost trick. he IS the only jedi we know of that doesnt follow the code and who beleives in the living force. In ANH, vader doesnt even know the ghost trick exists. so it would appear that qui-gon, mace, or obiwan discover it

yerssot
let's not get Ush here again with his explanation!
The nearest we get to EpII the more they talk about it!

bigsef2
he does have an explaination for everything. maybe he really is always right smile

Ushgarak
There was strong rumour that Liam had been spotted doing shooting work when they did reshoots in Engaldn. But Liam has since said he was not in ep.ii, but may be in ep. iii

I would be very interested in Qui-Gon playing an active part in the whole ghost trick thing. But to be honest, his character stands fine as it is, much as I would like him back in.

sand person no. 10
the shooting for leeson may have already been done during the ep1 shoot, then there would be no spoilers or clues.

bigsef2
so is it official that hes not gonna be in episode II?

yerssot
well, I don't know that... but I thought that rumor has been shot down with solid proof...

(you said reshooting, so he had to be there already a few months before that)

Ushgarak
Well, Liam saying he wasn't in it was proof enough for me!

yerssot
well, he could lie, because IF he was in it, it would be a major shock

Ushgarak
Yes, he COULD lie, but I rather think that is speculation vs. fact, there, and I prefer fact.

yerssot
Remember that they all have a clausule in their contract saying that they must keep absolutly silent about the shooting and the story

bigsef2
yeah, but christopher lee follows the confidentiality agreements TO THE LETTER, but hell still say, "yeah im in AOTC." Neeson said, "no im not."

yerssot
that's because his pic is on the cast list of AOTC big grin

bigsef2
and neesons is not. which should imply....

yerssot
that perhaps they kept it a very well guarded secret

bigsef2
along the lines of james earl jones doing the voice of vader? wasnt that not revealed until ROTJ?

yerssot
It's clearly written at the end of ESB:
Voice of Darth Vader: James Earl Jones

In ANH he didn't want to be mentioned because he felt he didn't do enough for it, but in the SE that changed

bigsef2
i always thought he just wanted to keep it a mystery

yerssot
nope big grin

Ushgarak
As bigsef says, James Earl Jones was not credited, originally, until ROTJ. As yerss says, it changed for the Special Editions.

And I agree with bigsef. Not saying you are in something is one thing, directly saying that you are not is quite another, clause or otherwise.

bigsef2
i do think it would be cool for qui-gon to "discover" the ghost trick think. in the scheme of the whole saga, it would make his character much more signifigant

yerssot
yeah, face it! He hasn't done anything shocking!

bigsef2
no, and if he doesnt come back, he will be an easily forgettable character in the grand scheme of things.

yerssot

bigsef2
gee, thanks. im sure the two people that read french will really appreciate that

sand person no. 10
Yeah, i don't read french and so yeah great!! big grin

As i've said before i think that ghosts only reappear to their aprentices and the important people in their lives, i.e. ob1 and luke, vader and Luke and Yoda and Luke, infact if you look at it, the only people that appeared as ghosts were too luke, perhaps he needed to see them, hence the trick.

bigsef2

Gandalf
I think someone said this in the thread, but I'm not sure. And that is the fact that Qui-Gon, unlike all other Jedi who decease, did not disappear after death, we saw his body burning. My prediction to this is that only Jedi who disappear after death and take spiritual form return as "spirits", albeit the only one we truly see is Obi-wan undergo this but if anyone here is familiar with EU novels it goes for literature as well. Therefore, my conclusion to this is that Qui-Gon can NOT take spiritual form because his body did not disappear. Why didn't it disappear? Simple. His defiance of the Jedi Council kept him from being "one with the Force".

This doesn't mean that he will definitely not be in Ep. II. I love pondering the fact of ghosts vs. spirits. Ghosts are notorious for remaining because of an "unfinished task". Could this be that Qui-Gon might return as a ghost to try and obtain a status of being one with the force? Therefore he can take spirit form.

There is just one problem, what would be so significant about spirits rather than ghosts? Does a spiritual existance hold a significant well-being rather than a ghost? I don't want to indulge in a discussion of nirvana, but maybe someone can help me with this.

A point I would like to make is I fear GL's focus of maintaining a well-balanced plot. If he does have Qui-Gon return as a spirit (rather than ghost, haha) then it will only confuse any Star Wars fan that has ever understood the movies, because we know through ANH's plot that Jedi who disappear become spirits. (Whether or not they are one through the Dark or Light Side). Hence why Yoda, Anakin, AND Obi-wan all became spirits.

So, is there anyone who would like to improve my ghosts vs. spirits theory. I am open to questions, comments, and sarcasm.

yerssot
comments: we should open a new thread about this!!!

Anyway, sorry 'bout the French, I was doing some French thingies at that point so I forgot to translate it!
__________________________________________________
__
28th of December 2001

QGJ in EpII?

Neeson talked about EpII recently, a bit of info came up because a lot of fans were asking if he returned in a hologram-way.
I can't say anything, but remember, a Jedi never dies."
QGJ will return in eP II and II certainly as hologram.. who will see him OB1? Anakin? 2002 will bring the answers
__________________________________________________
__

Anakin? no way! he doesn't know a thing!
And we all have to admit this rumors are growing stronger...

Gandalf
If he returns as a hologram, it's not an at-the-moment appearance then. Holograms are either previously recorded sequences for later discovery (Princess Leia recording her message in R2D2 in ANH) or a current transmission of one state of being to another location (Sio Bibble transmitting sequences to Padme's starship). Actually, those were previous sequences if you think about it. Either way hologram is possible, but doesn't remove that fact that Qui-Gon did in fact lose existance.

You can say Qui-Gon didn't die, but how come we saw his body burning?

queeq
Because he didn't disappear. I still believe and hope that the ghost thing and the disappearing and not directly related.

bigsef2
its looking now like qui-gon is dead and will stay dead. he will appear in a pre-recorded library hologram image, and thats it.

yerssot
and I hope they leave him dead without screentime!

Gandalf
I can't believe you said that, as if you don't have any liking for him at all. Personally, I am proud Qui-Gon was known for defiance, it shows the Republic isn't restricted to codes and bylaws.

yerssot
well... I said it big grin

pfff, he gets killed by an apprentice and then he is supposed to be cool and stuff???

obiemerald
qui-gons probably going to come back when obiwan is having a break down about this new pressure of being a master. similar to when Obiwan came back to luke when he was freaking out about being a jedi and this new respons. to kill his new found father.

thats my guess.

bigsef2
and.....................NO

obiemerald
but then, i dont like quigon. i think hes wierd. >:P

Aquarius87
I'm feeling a bit of Deja Vu.....hasn't this discussion took place before.i'm pretty sure a couple of months back,people were talking about the same thing.
Whatever??...
Anyways i never have much to say,all i can say is qui gon will play a role which will finalise his character.

Aquarius87
..Well i like Qui gon i think he's very kind,and he was a stable master with alot of time for other people.And he followed his heart,he's very much of a fatherly figure,his apprentices are his children not just his apprentices,thats the way i see it.

yerssot
How did the rumor spread of him being back?
Because a rumor/spoiler has it Dooku and QGJ were budds?

Dim
I thought Dooku was his master?...maybe as much a fatherfigure to him as he was to his apprentices?..

Ratcat
Here's the story: http://www.swmovies.net/episode-ii/rumor/200201/#020101ln

yerssot
I knew I had to check swmovies.net first! wink

Well, I guess it's true (shame, big shame!!!)

queeq
SWmovie is the place, yes. So go there next time. wink

bigsef2
one thing we must keep in mind in discussing qui-gon's possible return in a form other than the pre-recorded hologram, is that GL has thought all of this through. Here are the facts:

Anakin, Yoda, and Ben all vanished when they died. They all became ghosts.

The only ghosts we have seen have "attached" themselves to Luke shortly after they died.

We have only seen good Jedi become ghosts.

As of ANH, it seems Anakin/Vader (and thus jedi in general) is unaware of the "ghost trick." However, this necessitates the question: If the ghost trick is not common knowledge to jedi, how does Anakin learn it b/w EPIV and VI?

Qui-gon does NOT dissapear when he dies at the end of EPI, and still has not appeared as of 10 years later.

yerssot
Anakin, Yoda, and Ben all vanished when they died. They all became ghosts

Still discussion about the link

We have only seen good Jedi become ghosts.

Because we are not in need to see a Sidious ghost

As of ANH, it seems Anakin/Vader (and thus jedi in general) is unaware of the "ghost trick." However, this necessitates the question: If the ghost trick is not common knowledge to jedi, how does Anakin learn it b/w EPIV and VI?

It's Vader in ANH, twisted and evil...
He just didn't learned it, or they didn't told him...
And ANAKIN becomes ghost because ... well, he IS the Chosen One!

bigsef2
how anakin learns it is the main thing im concerned about. Maybe it will be explained in the "definative editions" of the OT

yerssot
no! definitly not
I'm sure that he can do it without effort, because he is the Chosen One

bigsef2
you dont just learn something like that out of the blue. If Anakin were to learn it on his own, then there would have to be some great revelation he has in his dying moments. I am having my doubts right now as to whether Anakin really did dissapear when he died. The novelization says otherwise

queeq
I heard that the official site says he disappeared or at leats that McCallum said it.
I still don't believe it. And if it IS true, then I think ROTJ is VERY VERY VERY flawed in not showing it. I'd consider a major ERROR, almost unforgivable and I think GL should fix it then in the SSE on the 2006 DVD.

yerssot
official site is not cannon sad
but yeah, Mc said it, and you can take another thing from the movie as a sign that he disappeared

queeq
What other thing. The only thing used now is that him appearing as a ghost is proof he disappeared. But if QGJ appears as a ghost, then that clue is potentially non-valid.

yerssot
my marvelous "his mask is IN his helmet" reply...

bigsef2
I think its likely just a flaw in the movie. GL probably just doesnt expect people to even think deep enough to notice. He would rather us spend our mental faculties looking for nsync in the background of a genosis battle

yerssot
they did indeed said they just forgot to let him vanish

queeq
Mask in his helmet.... OMG!! roll eyes (sarcastic)

yerssot
indicating that there is no-one in it

bigsef2
and thus we are back to the questoin: where the heck did anakin learn how to vanish?

yerssot
and then my reply comes again (because no-one reacts to it!)

He is the Chosen One, he can do it all by himself!

bigsef2
that idea shows a lack of thoughtful thinking.

yerssot
or you lacking imagination

bigsef2
hmmm, im not the one who says anakin just automatically learns the ghost trick because hes the chosen one. whos lacking imagination? :-)

yerssot
He brings balance to the force, and he doesn't get the ghost trick???

Dim
What are you talking about?..he has the ghost trick.

yerssot
me??? dear innocent me?
I said that he is the Chosen One and therefor could do a few tricks without any help

Ushgarak
Well, if the Ghost Trick has ANYHTING to do with the Midi-Chlorians, then you can see why Anakin might get a free pass on that one.

But all very speculative.

yerssot
making QGJ very low on it? and still a master, what a show-off!

bigsef2
i think dooku is the key to the ghost trick

yerssot
well, he is in two episodes, so yeah, he has to be important

queeq
Dooku? Why? My guess is that if he knows it, Palpy'd know about it too.

Ushgarak
I think so too. Clearly not a Dark Side thing in any way.

queeq
Indeed, because Vader would know about it too and we klnow he doesn't.

Ushgarak
And it would be so dramatically inappropriate, as well.

queeq
Quite.

Well, I fear we'll have to wait all the way to EpIII to get some decent answers to the ghost thing anyway.

bigsef2
if it were not a dark side thing, then more jedi would know about it. the jedi have been around for over 10,000 years, and NONE of them know about a ghost trick. all of a sudden, the sith reappear, and suddenly youve got ghosts. add to that the fact that dooku has a connection to qui-gon, and at one time, was a good jedi. And I really dont think Palpatine and Dooku are in cohoots as much as we might think at this moment. Dooku is probably not stupid enough to let Palpatine completely use him. I think when Dooku realizes what Palpatine is REALLY up too, he switches sides. While that IS totally speculation, there is no other way to explain why no other jedi know about the ghost trick, if its not connected to the sith. and Dooku is the only sith who has the possiblity of turning good.

Ushgarak
FAR more likely that it is ties up with the whole Prophecy thing, which is why it coincides with the return of the Sith.

queeq
Exactly. I think the purge of the Jedi gives cause for this part of the Force to be investigated by the Jedi.

bigsef2
there is also the fact that every time a jedi dissapears as a ghost, he does so in the presense of the dark side vergence in the force.

obiwan w/ darth vader
yoda near the dark side cave
anakin w/ the presense of the dead emperor, or simply the fact that he he is the chosen one, who is very strong with the dark side.

yerssot
Let's face it: QG was too stupid big grin

sand person no. 10
its got nothing to do with the darkside, there is no darkside cave (officially) its got to do with Luke and their being no Jedi left to train him so they have to come as ghosts to help him. it might even be as simple as the sw's films are pretty much based around Luke and so the film is seen from his point of view, hence we see his ghosts and no elses. Thats the reason we don't see qgj's ghost, tpm is too generalised to be based around one character, ot is not.
I like the idea of Dooku turning to the goodside to defeat palpatine only to have anakin/vader beat him, nice twist.
I think if Qui Gon was going to be a ghost it would be in ep2 not 3, too long too wait, (15 years plus), i like the idea of him being a hologram or in a video with dooku, nice plot twist.

This ghost thing falls apart when you look at the sith, they have jedi training and yet there is not one sith seen as a ghost, i would like to see darth bane appear in ep3 but i'm doubtful.


surely palpatine being all powerful could come as a ghost???

Ushgarak
We still don;t know what a vergence is...

bigsef2
ok, sand person, your idea that there are more ghosts but we just dont see them kind of falls apart when you take into account that in the OT, it is clear that vader doesnt know obiwan turned into a ghost, or even that it is a possibility.

as to ush's comment about a vergence, he is correct, we really dont know what that term means. im going to start a thread about that...

queeq
The disappearance thing is definately something new in ANH. OB1's line "I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" and Vader's surprise at his disappearance says it all.

And bigsef, your idea of a link with the dark side is very close to being ridiculous, IMHO OC.

yerssot
that isn't totally correct queeq, OB1 and Yoda might have got it when Anakin was away, killing someone

bigsef2
the idea of the sith being connected to the dissapearing is only rediculous from a certain point of view. it might not be a "dark side trick" but it is tied in with the resurgence of the sith in one way or another.

queeq
Maybe it's the first step in defeating the Sith forever. It may not be directly linked.

And yes, a certain point of view. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGH

King Jedi
If you go to the official site right now, there is a picture of Qui-Gon on the front page and the way it's done he looks like a Jedi ghost I think. He's glowing round the edges.

But I'm sure it's just the way the picture looks.

yerssot
I so that one also, but I'm not sure about the intention

King Jedi
It doesn't look like a TPM pic though. He's standing on a ship.

yerssot
I have to see that pic again to decide

bigsef2
The picture is definately from TPM, and it is either from the scene with Boss Nass at the beginning of the movie, or a scene in with the Jedi council. Qui-gon is not glowing, but they simply couldnt cut the background out of the pic exactly around his body. The purplish glow and the uncomfortable look on qui-gons face makes me think it is from the Boss Nass scene, but I wouldnt put money on it. :-)

yerssot
From my memory it's a pic of him on Tatooine ...

bigsef2
where does the purplish hue come from? the jedi council room and the underwater city could both account for that

yerssot
no, it's added

bigsef2
no, its not added. loock carefully. its not just a hue around his body. in some places it extends a bit. you can see blurred details in the background. its the scene from the gungan city and the camera is focused on qui-gon so you cant make out the details in the background.

LanceWindu
Is this on the first page of Starwars.com? I went not long after this was announced and I haven't seen the pic. Can you guys send a link to this pic?

bigsef2
go to starwars.com and hit refresh until the pic changes to the one with quigon

yerssot
we'll see roll eyes (sarcastic)

yerssot
the one with OB1; Anakin and Vader: you clearly see that OB1 has the same thing going on, but not as bright as QG, and also note that behind Anakin, there is someone standing there

same thing with Yoda

bigsef2
youre imagining things yers.... i didnt forget the 'r' this time!! smile

yerssot
althoug I'm not sure about the proper abriviation of my name, is it yerss; yers...???

and, just check! it's true!

(and as a proof: the person thing behind Anakin: check it out!)

bigsef2
no, i beleive there is a person behind anakin, because its taken from a scene in the movie. they blur the background. just like the background is blurred in the qui-gon pic. i just dont think it was something "added" to make him look like a ghost. it simply beleive it is the background of the gungan city

LanceWindu
I saw the pics it looks like the QG one it taken from Ootah Gunga in front of Boss Nass but they reversed it.

bigsef2
woopee!!!!!

LanceWindu
Now what is that supposed to mean? smile

bigsef2
id been saying it was that scene for a while. i was right for once! wooopeeee!

LanceWindu
Ah, do you agree with me that the pic is reversed?

yerssot
I'm not sure, I'm thinking about Tatooine here

queeq
Maybe you should fight. THe one who wins is right.

bigsef2
there is an easy way to settle this. I am right. The only person who can be right that disagrees with me is Ush, and only then from a certain point of view. wink

queeq
And what about me then?

bigsef2
you generally agree with either me or ush, on any given subject, so you fall into the category of being right along side me, or being right from a certain (distorted warped) point of view, along with Ush, when he disagrees with me. hehe

queeq
I think I should start a new category then: you're both wrong! big grin

bigsef2
HMMMMMMM, I would hold out until it every happens that both of us are. You know, to save yourself the extra work of making a category never to be used...

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