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Remember that line from ANH when Obi-wan gives Luke his lightsaber? I think that line is KEY in what we will and will not see in Episode III. I just don't quite understand what it means yet. I haven't thought about it enough, but I wanted you guys and gals opinions. Heres the thing. Either Obi-wan is lying, or Anakin knew he had a son, but not a daughter.

This would seem to conflict with the line from ROTJ: "when your father left, he didn't know she was pregnant." While that line did not appear in the final movie, it was in the script. And GL wrote that AFTER he wrote the afore-mentioned line from ANH. So either GL caught the discrepancy and thus took the line out of ROTJ, or BOTH statements are true. Which in my mind, would make a confused mess.

And if Anakin really knew he had a son, and wanted him to have his lightsaber, that would mean he turned to the dark side, with the hope that his son would redeem him, and i just dont buy that.

I think that Anakin knew he had a son not a daughter but not the mess where he thought that Luke would redeem him.
"The future is always changing."
And Obi-Wan was most likely lying to Luke in that line from ANH.

What's not in the movie doesn't make any difference. Only what we see on screen counts.

All we can do is guess without seeing II and III.

I dont think Vader knows he has a son until after the battle of Yavin sometime when Vader finds out Luke's last name is Skywalker: "when your father left, he didnt know your mother was pregnant."

I also think Obi-wan was lying about the lightsaber. I think he somehow gets it after defeating Anakin at the end of EPIII.

In my personal theory, I think at the end of EPIII, we think Anakin is dead, probably killed by his own clone-why did qui-gon REALLY take a blood sample in TPM? (haha, just kidding) and Obiwan tells luke his father wanted to have it, when people watching the series in order will think Obi-wan is a lying SOB who took the lightsaber from anakins dead, chopped off hand.

as to TO's comment, what makes a difference is that GL PUT THAT IN THE ROTJ SCRIPT!!!!! why would he put a conflicting statement into the script?! Either he took it out of the final cut b/c he realized it conflicted with ANH or just because its too wordy, the fact remains that at some point, GL had obiwan say that. And I, personally dont think GL is that dumb to make a mistake like that.

it's in the script, it's not in the movie, it's (I think) not in the novalization... it's not cannon...

about the threadtitle: I think he just takes the lightsabre of Anakin after they fought and that OB1 thought that it was Anakins wish...

you miss the point, its not cannon, but GL had that in the script at some point! which means it was in his idea for star wars. although its not cannon, it still is his idea. which means we must either beleive he has changed his idea, or its still true, in which case there could be a VERY interesting sequence of events in EPIII....

I think it is part of Obi-Wan cover up "story" for Luke. By saying this he gets Luke more interessted in the saber, which again would lead to a bigger interesst of the jedi way.

if you say that the galaxies worst enemy is your father and that eventually he has to defeat him, then it's certain you would say no!

I think Obi Wan is deceptive in a lot of what he transpires to Luke....he says things to lead Luke one way and away from
another direction.....
Maybe this is to shield him from the temptations of the Darkside, while Luke is still vunerable....
As for Leia, I doubt Anakin ever knew of his daughter....
He just knew that Padame was pregnant....

first of all, i will argue until may 2005 that anakin does not know he has kids in the PT, and the movie ends with padme still pregnant.

secondly, i have been wondering alot about obi-wan's percieved duplicity. it seems that on top of misleading luke about alot of things, such as what happened to his father, he also lies to him about the lightsaber. in TPM, obi-wan doesn't have a touch of duplicity. In ANH, it seems most of what he tells luke is not entirely true, or atleast only true "from a certain point of view." It doesnt seem that mere old age could change obi-wan so much. Any thoughts as to the change in obiwans character?

Yes - for the umpteenth time - Obi-Wan and the remainder of the Jedi Council conspire to shepherd Luke through the events of the OT knowing only he can liberate Anakin from the Dark Side to fulfil his destiny, namely to bring balance to the force.

Anakin embraces the Dark Side in order to gain a full, rounded knowledge of the force and attain balance. Luke is the catalyst for Anakin's recovery. This is all foretold by the prophecy and Obi-Wan and Yoda are left the only guardians of the Destiny of the Force.

The key obstacle along the way - for the PT at least - is Dooku, who left the Jedi order to investigate the Dark Side himself under the delusion that HE is the chosen one. That explains why Dooku turned nasty - delusions of grandeur - and why he becomes Palpatine's apprentice, so he can get close enough to kill him.

By the end of Ep III Dooku will realise that Anakin is the true chosen one and that he is losing control so, to make amends for his foolish arrogance, he teaches the Ghost trick to Obi-Wan and Yoda and helps set up the events we see in the OT. The Ghost trick is part of the Dark Side art and an ability Dooku resurrected (pardon the pun) during his self teaching of the Dark Craft. He passes it on to the remaining Jedi to ensure the work of fulfilling the prophecy carries on even in the event of the Jedi's deaths and then, full of shame and regret, ends his own life totally.

There - my theory just gets wilder and wilder, doesn't it...

nice theory, but I think it's a Light side thingie ... AND he has too teach it to YODA and OB1 in EpIII (like Yoda will ever leave his JC-room after EpII)

Actually, I have been thinking alot along the lines of Darthyogi as well. Has anyone thought about WHY GL decided to make Qui-gon and Dooku old friends, possibly even having a master/apprentice relationship? There is a very good reason for it, it's not supposed to be mere coincidence. While I have not heard rumors about Dooku beleiving himself to be the chosen one, I have had beleived for some time that Dooku will turn "good" at the end of EPIII.

Think about it. We are possibly told in EPII that Dooku was either Qui-gon's master, or his friend. Qui-gon dies and does not dissapear at the end of TPM. Why? To establish the fact that the Jedi do not know how to become Ghosts. After Tens of thousands of years, good jedi do not know this trick. Added is the fact that if Dooku does learn this trick, he didn't know it when he and Qui-gon were close, otherwise he would have told Qui-gon and qui-gon would have become a ghost.

So where does that leave us? The Sith are the new kids on the block. They have been gone for a LONG time. And a few years after the Sith come back, all of a sudden, certain Jedi learn to become Ghosts. That is NOT coincidence. I beleive it is POSSIBLE that the Dissapearing trick/becoming a ghost is something Dooku will learn, and as yogi mentioned, teach to Obiwan as a means of redeeming his own actions when he sees how palpatine has played him, and everyone else, towards his own ends.

Like minds indeed Bigsef2.

And my thinking goes on too - Qui-Gon never told the Jedi Council about Dooku's obsession and let them believe he just faded into obscurity. Meanwhile, Qui-Gon was operating under delusions of his own - he was out to find the TRUE chosen one in the belief that that would be enough to bring his old friend back from the Dark Side. His recklessness was a response the Jedi Council's dismissal of Dooku as a crank and their reluctance to join him in trying to rescue his old colleague, but Qui-Gon never gave up hope.

When Qui-Gon happened across Anakin he was of course duty bound to report him to the Council, but was also motivated by the desire to bring sense to Dooku - wherever he'd gone off to.

rumor has it it has something to do with the prophecy

I agree. I think there are even hints to a little more to the situation. Certain comments Qui-gon makes in TPM bother me. They don't seem consistant with what we know of the other Jedi. Sure, he's a rogue, and beleives in the "living force" as opposed to the "unifying force," but remember some of the first lines in the movie. Obi-wan senses trouble, and what does Qui-gon say: "I dont sense anything." A definative statement, from master to pupil. He is basically saying: 'Theres nothing to sense. Dont concern yourself with it. Concern yourself with the moment.' To a certain degree, I beleive that's a correct statement, but I also think he is trying to direct Obi-wan away from the greater mystery. Or it could simply mean Qui-gon was wilfully blind to what was going on. Don't get me wrong. I don't think he is an apprentice to Sidious or anything. There can only be two Sith, but do I think there is more to Qui-gon than meets the eye. And with his connections to Dooku, I am even more supsicious of him.

still no proof there is a difference between those "two" forces...

the website specifically says there is a difference. we also have the conficting descriptions of what the force is, given by ben to luke in ANH, and qui-gon to anakin in TPM. Qui-gon is wrong

I'm lazy, give me the link

i read it a couple months ago. it was under "characters" and "qui-gon Jinn" if i remember correctly

search it! I demand you!

How lazy can you get. Its in the exact place where I said it was, in the FIRST PARAGRAPH, at that! I figured you might be too lazy to click on a link, so I cut and paste and put it here:


A venerable if maverick Jedi Master, Qui-Gon Jinn is a student of the living Force. Unlike other Jedi Masters, who often lose themself in the meditation of the unifying Force, Qui-Gon Jinn lived for the moment, espousing a philosophy of "feel, don't think -- use your instincts." Were it not for Qui-Gon's unruly views, he would have undoubtedly been on the Jedi Council.

the living force is concentrating on the presents while the unifying force is the past, present and future

thats a broad, yet shallow interpretation. and by shallow i dont mean uneducated, i mean, it doesnt go very deep. Qui-gon is the only jedi we have seen that beleives midichlorians can tell you the will of the force. that is why sw.com says he beleives in the LIVING force. When Qui-gon tells the council about Anakin and his midichlorian count, they kind of give a side-ways look at eachtother like, "good grief. not this again." Non of the jedi dispute that midichlorians exist, let alone that people jedi with higher midichlorian counts are more powerful, but no other jedi has ever said they midichlorians can tell you the will of the force.

as far as the living focusing on the present only, and that being the meaning of qui-gons statements, we must also remember that yoda taught luke to focus on the present. It seems to me to be a standard Jedi teaching to focus on the problem at hand, not something unique to the theory of the living force.

Qui-gon is the only jedi we have seen that beleives midichlorians can tell you the will of the force


And that's why we know that Yoda has the highest count...

that comment doesnt make sense to me. explain.

having a high midichlorian count and beleiving they can tell you the will of the force are two separate things entirely

if he doesn't believe it, why would they even bother to count them?

Hmm. You guys are talking about things that are still speuclation as if they are fact.

Never mind the website for this one. The whole Living Force/Unifying Force thing is very vague right now (track back a bit to see the thread I opened up the moment it was mentioned on the website for more).

So saying things like only Qui-Gon believed the MC's could tell you the will of the Force is a bit much. It;s possible, but somehow I think not.

well, it's one big Force none-theless
your view on it won't change a lot, I'm sure

if the movie says something, and the website says something, thats all we really have to go on at this point. you may want to call it speculation, but in my mind atleast, thats the whole point for these forums.

lets keep it simple: website isn't cannon

Yes. of course it is the point, bigsef, but you were talking as if it were fact. Which it is not.

did i say it was fact? No. But i was basing my statements on TPM, as well as what the website says. 95 percent of what they put on the website is absolutely true, and never changes. In my opinion, its fairly probable that what the website says is true. Im doing exactly what scientists do. They base their own theories on the groundwork of what is popularly viewed as "scientific fact." Often, things viewed as fact in science turn out not to be true, and scientists must re-evaluate their theories. As far as Im concerned right now, what the website says can be considered as probable fact. I have no reason to disbeleive it, and neither does anyone else. A theory based on something the website says, which also agrees with what is in the movie, is alot more likely than a theory someone pulls out of their butt, based on their interpretation of a line in the movie. Until we are told otherwise, qui-gon is the only jedi that beleives in the living force. Certainly we know that none of the other council members beleive in it.

I said you stated it as if it was fact. Which, despite your arguments, it still is not. And this issue of the Living Force and so on, in particular, is the sort of hazy area that we should be real wary about.

its what the website says. until there is an official lucasfilm source that says otherwise, you have to accept it as fact. at least as we understand it now. GL could change stuff all around later, such as he did with owen being related to anakin, and not ben, but until he changes it, it is official star wars fact.

No it isn't. We have no evidence GL has ever said it, so aside from that it is only fact if it is in the films.

so whats the point of the website. i dont see you disputing the fact that the website now says that owen is anakins stepbrother. or the fact that it says a hundred other things about stuff we havent seen yet in the movies. you cant pick and choose what you will beleive from the same source. its either all true, or its all innacurate. GL doesnt allow people to put whatever the heck they want on the website. while he cant oversee every little detail personally, what is put on the website is controlled. were not talking about some kids fansite. this is the official star wars website. the OFFICIAL star wars website. and it is biased to disagree with something it says simply because you dont like it

You are simply getting tiresome now, bigsef.

I have said over a dozen times that the webiste is not infallible but is often a good indication.

And again, you are suggesting that I make decidions on whether I 'like' things or not. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have no strong feelings about this Living/Unifying Force thing one way or another, and no reason to bias myself accordingly. In fact- as I have mentioned several times- I earlier opened a thread entirely about this subject saying that was pretty much supporting the idea of the Living/Unifying Force thing becoming canon.

And you say it is either all true or all inaccurate? That's just crap! A source can be right about some things and wrong about others! Of course it can! The site has said several things that are wrong over time. Many more that are right. The important thing is that the site is NOT canon.

In any case, Lucasfilm's OWN policy is that it ain't so unless either GL says it or it is in the films.

you forget to mention that its the ONLY thing we have stated on the subject, and there is absolutely no reason to disagree with it or doubt its authenticity. weve never seen ANYTHING about living vs. unifying force before, but someone in the know had it put on the website. it would seem unlikely that some web geek simply made it up and put it on the website. if starwars.com says something, and we dont have an official source that disagrees, its as good as fact, until theres something in cannon that states otherwise.

The problem was that the whole Living/Unifying Force thing was something that was going around fan sites for a very long time. Then its sudden apperance on the website seemed suspicious, especially as that is the only reference to it anywhere. It really didn't scan.

so youre saying the terms "living force" and unifying force started out on fan websites?

Living Force was first mentioned in TPM, of course. But yes, the whole Living vs. Unifying Force thing was a fan thing before it turned up on the official site.