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No briefing. The players are in the hands of the Renegade Programme Melitus. Melitus has encrypted their coding so that they crash a hardline when they access it meaning the players cannot return to the real world. Those who made it to Melitus to confront him have learned that Melitus has the same powers as the Oracle, and has used his foresight to set-up this situation in advance.

Unable to harm Melitus in any way, and isolated form any help inside Melitus' domain, the players have no option other than to accept the choice Melitus gave them. To drink the wine he offers, and to continue down the road that the renegade Captain Jericho- the ultimate objective of the player's mission- took, to understand his choice to side with Melitus, in which case Melitus offers to undo the encryption Or to not drink, and face the consequences.

Those who did not drink have been subdued by the Xiao Emo, a very nasty piece of work who apparently takes orders from Melitus. Those who drank were soon taken out as well, by something in the wine.

It is those who chosse to drink the wine that we shall now concentrate on.

Ok folks, here goes. I have described the boundaries of this Philosophy path many times before, and shall not do so again- you knew what you were signing up for. But just some last second reminders:

- Think, but do not try and be too clever. A prevaricating smart-arse scores nothing.

- You will be timed, because this Path has to move on at roughly the same pace as the other. But do NOT be hasty. Once you put something down on the thread, you cannot change it.

- Be consistent. I am not interested in your intellectual level of sophistication- remember, Philosophy in the Matrix has to be Neo-proof. So I am far more interested in coherence and conistency than any form of startling insight into the nature of things.

- If you are confused or have queries, I am afraid that I, Ush, cannot help you. That is against the nature of the section. As the Oracle does not tell you exactly what is going on or what to do- because it is important that YOU do these things, not her- likewise I cannot guide you through. However, there is a capacity to discuss things and get help WITHIN the game system, so use that.

- Have an open mind. This is very important. A closed mind will learn little. Also, respect each other's difference in opinion. Discuss it, disagree with it, but don't condemn it. Not wanting to make anyone nervous here... but to condemn it is not your job... remember, this is a personal exercise for each of you. You are not trying to outsmart anything. Some form of forced team approach to the problem will not help you. Let everyone submit what they want to submit. I guarantee you, so long as you make an effort to engage with things, nothing you submit will ve discarded as stupid. The only problems will be those submissions that are not relevant. Remember, not engaging means you lose.

- And to develop on that... you may not seek help from outside the thread., I cannot halt personal messaging; it is no great disaster if you talk things over with others, I guess. But- and this is for anyone else reading this- whilst 'visiting' players from Combat can make encouraging or dispariging comments, they absolutely can NOT give you advice. This is your Path, not theirs, nor is it relevant for anyone not playing the game.

All that understood... is everyone ready to begin?

Note- whilst some have done it in the beta thread, could all players please update their stat and skill options in the character creation thread. I believe everyone here has still to do that.

yep..i'm ready


though i did make that 2.5 character creation..so not everyone

I see nothing in the 2.5 character creation thread....

huh?..if it's something besides the mind and skills upgrade..then i didn't do it

I need it all referenced in the v2,5 character thread for easy updating. You did it in beta; just port it over.

Silence... is it just Dexx who is ready? He could be lonely.

now was my question answered? do the special tricks count for zion combat points?

It was, I said yes.

(must have missed that, all I found was a probably)

That'll do...

Zink says he's ready.

Very well then. Here we go.

----------------------------------

The six of you- or however many decide to partake of this- are each lying on a comfortable sofa inside a large room done out in the typical Melitus Georgian style, with the white panelling and elegant architecture.

There are 'several' doors leading out of here.

Your sofas are arranged in a circle around a table in the middle of the room, upon which is a bottle of wine and six glasses.

There is a camera in an upper corner of the room. Two feet below that is a small intercom unit. Right now, violin music is playing through the intercom.

There is a large painting dominating one side of the room. It is provided as an attachment.

I know that painting WHIII

Probably helpful that someone does but on its own that is not very useful right now.

Death of a famous Greek philosipher, but the name eludes me...

(Relaying...)

Heph starts to get up, looking around the room. "What happened...?"

BTW, Zink and BB will have to come present their parts in person soon or they will be invalid.

woops

You are all free to explore your environment.

Noted, Ush. I'll go *****-slap them until they do.

Ta. This is a somewhat more personal experience than a simple fight, you see.

Heph gets up, rubbing his temples. He goes over to the intercom unit.

"Hello, anyone there?" he says, pressing the speak button, interrupting the violin music.

Hmm, there doesn't seem to be a 'speak' button... it seems to relay inwards only.

Heph looks around at the doors, picking the one closest his chair, then tries to open it, not expecting good results.

It appears to be locked.

"Go figure," Heph says, letting his arms flopping at his sides. He flops down on the chair, then gets up again to get a closer look at the painting, just out of boredom.

"I have a feeling we'll be here for awhile..." Heph says to the others.

Feel free to examine the painting for details.

(I find it ironic that the Greek guy is being given a wine glass... )

That intrigues me- ironic how?

Ironic because that is what happened to us. We drank the wine, and we are now stuck in here...

Your opinion is noted...

Rade gets up from his sofa.
"where the heck are we?" he asks more or less rethorically, soon before he heads to take a closer look at that painting

"I probably know just as much as you do," Heph says, not really paying attention. He looks at the painting for a bit, then reaches for his cell phone, if it's there.

Well, Rade, feel free to take a closer lok at the painting as well!

You have your phone- no reception.

You also seem to have a full load-out of guns.

(and zero damage? asks rade checking for bullet holes in him..)

yes, yes..Rade takes a closer look at the painting....but considering you provided the image...i assume there's nothing more to find out by actually saying: he goes to take a closer look....but hey..maybe it is

Yes, you are also on zero damage.

Indeed no, I won't give you any more info on the painting- you can simply look harder at the image!

"he doesn't seem to mind drinking it"

It is indeed so that he seems a lot happier than those around him.

The music cuts out.

"Good day," comes Melitus' voice over the intercom. At no point does he stop to breathe during this entire sequence. "I trust you are all feeling recovered?"

"Yes quite rested, bit of headache from the closed space but otherwise fine(last part is sarcastic)"

"Good," says Melitus. "Once I am satisifed you are all well then we can begin."

"An asprin would be nice"

"I can only provide you something you would need to take with water and I have none to offer."

"Ok nevermind than, thanks anyway"

"why are we here?"

"You know why you are here," says Melitus. "You are here to understand things."

How can we understand things while were trapped in a room with nothing but a painting on the wall?

Are you actually saying that or just commenting for the sake of it? If the first, Melitus can reply, if the second, I am not going to help you.

"When you are ready," says Melitus, "please proceed through one of the doors."

(I forgot the quotations, it was an in character remark.)

Oh wow, you changed into Castor.

"I may as well ask you why can you NOT understand things in such a situation," says Melitus. "If you are inapable of interpreting things that is not my fault. Please, proceed."

Yeah, good ole Raz changed it for me. I've been wondering how to do that forever. When I first joined I wanted to do SW RP, but I was bored with it so I joined the Matrix RP, thus I changed my name to my user name.

"Hmmm..." Proceeds through this door that Rade(I think it was him) tried ot open before.

The door now opens, easily...

Can I see anything through the doorway without stepping through ush?

"very well...let's playthis sick game of yours" mutters Rade. He picks a door and opens it....going through

Looks at rade for a second...he wonders whats through the door. (Waiting for ush response before i enter)

It is hard to see where you are before you go through the door.

You are all in a large warehouse type room. This room, like all the other rooms in this sequence, as an intercom and a camera.

The warehouse is filled, from top to bottom, with endless computer monitors- old ones from the dawn of computing, boxy 80s/90s ones, hi-tech slim flat screen ones, and ones very similar to the ones you use on your ships.

Each one is filled with Matrix code, trailing down the screen endlessly. Each one appears to be a shot of everyday life in the Matrix, now, at this moment. An empty bedroom in a house. A park. A man on his way to work. An argument in a back alley. Ice observing someone at a school. Cars driving down a road. The sky. And so on.

"....Whoa....."

He looks in amazement at the screens, and then is puzzled.

There is enough room between banks of monitors to manoeuvre. This room also has 'several' doors.

"a machine wouldn't need to view the code on monitors" starts Rade, to whoever might hear him..
"these screens are for....someone like...us"

"The Matrix," says Melitus. "Whether you are its enemy or its friend, whether you would see it preserved or destroyed, there is no doubting the enormity of its achievement. Here a world is kept, a prison that no inmate knows is a prison, where the needs of one society are filled by the ignorant enslavement of another, but a slavery which does not restrict the day to day life of its victims. A world which, perhaps, is more important than the 'real' world without. And its operation is the major obession for every sentient being on the planet. For its inmates, to live in it. For those like me, to stay unnoticed in it. For the jailors, to maintain its operation. And for those inmates who learn the truth, to destroy it. It is all around us, looking like one thing but being another, and even when you are not in it, it occupies your thoughts more than any other consideration. Seen like this, it is just so much code, but look at what that code has become. More real than Real, some would say."

"no...it is simply a sick simulation. there is nothing real that has to do with the matrix.."

"That is incorrect," says Melitus. "Everything that happens in the Matrix is 100% real. You confuse real with physical. Just because the Matrix is not physical, it does not detract from its reality. Everything that happens inside it does indeed happen. A person who talks to another in the Matrix really DOES talk to that person. He simply is doing it via a means different to that which he perceives. This conversation we are having right now is real, although it is not physical. Your life before you were rescued from the Matrix? No-one made that up. That life was REAL. It did happen. Those memories are not implanted- you really did do those things. It was simply not in the physical world.

"The Matrix is not truly a dream. A dream is introspective, it is relative only to yourself and exists only for yourself. But the Matrix is independant. it exists whether you observe it or not, and two people can independantly observe the same thing, and one person affect it and the other also see the change, very different to a dream

"In fact, the only significant thing that is unreal for the inmates of the Matrix is the idea that you have ultimate control over your own destiny, whereas in fact that is a privilege accorded to you by others, the Machines, who would remove that immediately if it suited them. As it is, Humans in the Matrix are accorded free will so long as it does not interfere with the parameters of the simulation.

"There are also some more petty things that are unreal, like the metaphysical nature of their world- for example, the existence of the Matrix Universe can be measured in years, not aeons- the past is simulated, your ancestors did not exist, there was no Big Bang, the world was created in software, and so forth. But these things can safely be assumed by everyone and are not important. They do not affect the life of anyone, whereas suddenly being terminated on a whim by a Machine certainly would.

"However, I am not at this point debating the concept of real. I am merely pointing out that significance of the Matrix in everyone's lives."

Question for other players - if it's allowed?

The painting shows a man drinking wine happy and bright among depressed people. He is looking out into the world from a picture.

Does this symbolise us drinking wine and being shown a world outside of what all those around us cannot see?

Oh and Ush, I had an in character post, but I'm not sure if it made sense. Since this is philosophical, do you mind?

Go for it, I say.

"So what you're saying is that the Matrix is just as important as the Real World, even more so to some people. Those people being the 'inmates' or machines like you? I still believe that if we gave them the choice most of the 'inmates' as you call them would leave. To those that stay it would be just as important though. I see your point. Everything is relative."

Heh... Does it make sense? I'm off to bed anyway, and since it doesnt really matter what I say I'll ask Melitus the wuestion too. But wait till I post it

"Well, the reality or otherwise of the Matrix has little bearing on whether you would want to stay in it or not. That is simply down to what you value. That is something we can discuss later.

"But to some, yes, of course, the Matrix is far more important than the 'real' world. Clearly not to any of you, though, by your very nature."

"Why did you bring us here, what is the point of this room in regards to us understanding Jericho."

"Do not get ahead of yourself or you will understand nothing," says Melitus. "If you want to learn anything, it must be built upon proper foundations. This room brings you into the context of the Matrix.

And inside that context, I have a question for you, that I want you all to consider. And when you answer my questions, I wish you to bear in mind all you have heard, seen and said when you consider each thing in turn. My question is this:

Is a decision made inside the Matrix in any way less relevant than one made outside of it?"

BTW, the Philosophy Path has now started. Pass or fail, the process begins now.

"You ask that as if there was a simple answer. I would say yes. If I decided to kill someone here it would be the same as if I had decided to kill someone out there."

"If you want to supply a complicated answer than do so. Do you think that answer applies to all situations? Do you think there are situations where a decision made in the Matrix is less relevant than one made outside of it?"

"I don't belive a decision inside the matrix is in anyway less relevant" starts Rade. "when plugged in, the mind is still perfectly aware of what it's doing, and the decisions aren't controlled by anyone...or anything, in this case" he smirks
"it's the effect that sometimes differs..."

(ok, we now await the others. If any of you wish to debate your answers amongst yourselves, please do)

Well I still want an answer to my question about the painting...

I don't remember you asking Melitus about the painting...

I meant from the other players... Hey I may as well ask Melitus unless it's too late?

Don't worry, you'll get a better chance to.

And yup, if anyone wants to talk that over?

Okay I'll leave it...

"I agree with the others. Choices are made by the human mind, not the Machines. They may have had us plugged into their computer program, but they didn't program us..." Heph says, looking at a screen showing a woman undressing, then to another showing a fly landing on a cake, then another and another and another.

"I meant you people as much as I meant people plugged in," says Melitus. "Does that change your answer?"

"The Matrix is more effective to the mind, while the real world will effect you body. But neither can live without the other. The real question is if there is no difference in the decisions then why are people so anxious to be free from a system that is no different than the system they choose to enter.

"Free will is the answer I believe, machines control our enviornmnt in the matrix and thus they have more say in our choices than we woudl like. In the real world it is us and the world we have created. Living with a decision in the matrix is different because we did not create the situation ourselve, it was built for us by the machines who thought they could predict our feelings and mind processes, but one of the greatest desires of humans has always been to master ones own destiny. How can we do so if our environment is not the sum of our own decisions?

"I dont believe we can."

"So you think a decision made in the Matrix is intrinsically less valuable than one made outside of it?" asks Melitus. "Remember I am not just talking about prisoners, but yourselves and myself also. I could argue that your rationale about environment is a situation that could equally apply in the real world if enslaved there. Is there anything particularly about being in the Matrix as opposed to any other factor that makes the decision less valid?

"Perhaps a better thing for me to ask you, Castor, would be this- if the Matrix had been created by humans, as a means of leisure, or perhaps as a means of survival due to real-world cataclysm, and there was no enslavement, no Agents, and everything was created in there by Humans... would you still say decisions made in there had less validity?"

"Validity is not important. Validity is not the problem."

Castor looked up and closed his eyes as he removed his glasses and placed them in his pocket.

"The problem is choice."

"We weren't given a choice. Thats what we want, thats all we want. A choice. The decisions made inside or outside the matrix are irrelivant, the important factor is whether or not we were allowed to choose where we wanted to make those choices.

"The need to make a decision will be thrust upon you no matter where you go. The choice to go to that place is more important...After all your decisons are limited by your environment. If my environment does not yeild the decision i really want to make, then my decision is not based upon my choices, it is based upon the choices others made.

Castor, do be careful about trying to answer your own question rather than the one being asked. Also, you cannot say that validity is not the problem and then make a series of statements that basically starts wandering whether a choice you make is valid or not.

In the end, it is his question being asked. Your answer has to be one of yes, no, or don't know, and preferably why. Your opinion on whether validity is a problem is not in the slightest bit relevant to that question. You are not here to dispute his questions, nor is it wise to as you don't know where he is going with them. But as I say, you then seem to discuss validity anyway. Your argument is if the decision is not based upon your choice then it is not really your decsion. That is a good definition of it being invalid.

So, you appear to be saying that it doesn't matter if the decision is made inside or outside the Matrix, yes (having said that 'decisions made inside or outside the Matrix are irrelevant') ? The only thing that matters, by your argument, is if you had choice over what led you to that decision. In which case your answere to Melitus is- no, there is no way it is less relevant, because being in the Matrix or not does not necessarily dictate whether you had a choice or not.

Do be careful of getting ahead of yourself; this first question is very simple.

(i got a little philosophical ush, my bad. Heh. I thought it sounded good though..heh.)

"In turn I suppose my answer is no."

Well, this is the right path for that! But there will probably be better times to go off on a tangent like that.

I didn't want to sound like I was shooting down intellectualism but for gaming purposes I need to judge your answer relevant to the question I asked, is all. Which now I can do!

"Very interesting," says Melitus. "We may, however, go back to some of the points you made there soon."

I believe we are just waiting for Fire now.

(yes, well...i'll just add this)

"the decision cannot be less relevant simply because the mind alone makes a decision. adn the mind is fully operational within the matrix as well. The matrix only limits the body...the real body"

"Fairly stated," says Melitus.

"I think a decision in the matrix is as valid as one that is made outside of the matrix, because from what I have seen in the matrix, we still make our choices based on the facts given to us. We do the same in the real world, only the nature of the facts is different"

"Vey well," says Meltius. "All of you seem agreed that there is nothing about being in an artificial world per se that makes your decisions less relevant or valid.

"Please; proceed through another door."

Heph walks through the next door, poking his head in before continuing.

You appear to be in a large covered observatory that looks out onto the night sky. On a second glance, you note that it is in fact simply an image of the night sky, but a very realistic one.

"Hmm...this is interesting...everytime we enter a new room we get a new question i suppose?"

Rade enters anotehr room, also (i asssume we're all in different rooms)

No, all in the same.

"Now," says Melitus, "I have what seems to be a very simple question for you. However, it may turn out to be moire complicated than you think.

I wish to know, in your opinion, what is the difference between the Matrix and the 'Real' World?"

"This is indeed hard one to answer, I think when it comes down to it it is merely a question of faith, a certain feeling, I'll think about maybe I can find a bit more of rational explaining"

"You cannot even name some simple differences?" asks Melitus. "I already mentioned some whilst talking to Castor earlier."

"To be a 100% certain isn't very easy"

"But there are some things that are VERY certain with the Matrix," says Melitus.

"the matrix is a simulation. The world is real...."


(this isn't my fulla nswer, ofcourse...i'll think about the rest)

Okidokey...

"Can you tell me the meaning of that difference?" asks Melitus.

"The mind is whats being stimulated in the matrix, not the body. In the real world, both are stimulated. Its very different. Also, as i said before the things that lead us to the point where we have to make decisions are either in our control or out of our control. In the matrix it is nto entirely in our control. Also, the system allows certain things in its exsistence, for example renegade programs.....oracles...things like that."

"In the real world you cannot siply alter a persons code, as you did with us, but in the matrix, thins are different. The rules arent the same as they are in the real world, because the rules are made by different people."

"All valid points," says Melitus. "Anything else?"

"In the matrix basic rules like gravity can be bent or broken in the real world they can not"

"The matrix is completely dependent on the survival of the real world. If the world was destroyed, the matrix would also be destroyed. However this isn't true in the reverse. If the matrix was destroyed right now we would die but the real world would still exist. This is one of the basic differences in my opinion. The matrix is dependent for survival."

"Indeed," says Melitus. "You may also want to remember what I said earlier about falsified history. All evidence in the Matrix that points to it being eras old- like fossils- has to be faked, even considering the simulated environment where technically everything is faked.

"Your family history in the Matrix is also entirely fabricated."

"The rules in the real world cant be bent....and ive never seen an agent in the real world, or someone get shot in the head and it not effect them."

"Rules in the Matrix are, of course, a major issue; whe shall examine that from another angle soon."

"the matrix is an imitation of how the world once was. It is a....tease...
It selfishly blinds the ones plugged in it, from what really happens around them. Whether or not you know it's there, the matrix is still merely a prison for the mind.
The world, on the other hand.....the world is...it just is. It just happens. With it's happiness or missfortunes, it is true..
( the matrix is, too..but not what happens in it, that what i was trying to say with that)

"Would your basic thrust there be that the Matrix was deliberately created with intent and purpose, unlike the 'real' world which exists without deliberate intent and has no specific purpose?"

"yes. Simply because it's (the matrix's) simple existance is designed with a purpose makes it all the way different from the real world. wich, as i said....it just happens"

"I take it, therefore, that you do not believe in any form of being who created the Universe?"

"I personaly do believe in some form of greater being that created the universe"

Well, he was talking to Rade in particular as Rade's argument depended on him not believing in any such thing.

"that has no relevance. Even if any 'being' created the world, i cannot see that this creation has a definite purpose. As opposed to the matrix.
And i know that the people inside feel the same way about the matrix, as i do about the world, looking at what i've just said. But i am stating this from MY point of view."

(sort of saying that maybe i'd feel different about the real world, if i knew it was simply matrix into a different matrix, and so on...)

- Sos ush, Dexx can answer it.

"If a being created the Universe," says Melitus, "then it was indeed done with purpose. That it is a purpose you cannot discern is no different to a prisoner in the Matrix not knowing the purpose of his world.

However, this is somewhat digressing. I was merely interested in Rade's rationale of the Real World being without specific purpose; purpose is important, after all.

In all, are we agreed that there are very significant differences between the Matrix and the 'real' world? Most direct of all, everything in the Matrix consists of computer code rather than atoms amd molecules.

I would also add that apperance in the Matrix is inherent deceptive. Everything you see is in fact something else- a programme- designed to make you perceive it as something you recognise, like a door. Whilst you can say it can never be totally proven that the real world is different, as far as Science can tell us, what you perceive in the 'real' world is what is actually there.

So, many differences, yes?"

Oh, your opinion was still welcome, Azrael!

Hmmm... I forgot what I said Is there anyway you can get it back?

"yes they are different"

"yes, many differences"

Afraid not, Azrael...

"Then let us break this down," says Melitus. "What are the differences... for people like YOU, and what are the differences for one of the inmates- the people you call 'coppertops'?"

"For us the differences are that we can do things in the matrix we can not do in the real world"

"An important difference that does not exist for the inmates, I am sure you agree."

"Yes ofcourse, but maybe if they believe as we believe and know what we know that would disappear as well"

"No," says Melitus, "it is not possible for an inmate to do anything outside of his base programme whilst still plugged into the system unless it is acted upon by an exterior force. The physical differences on this reality apply to these people just as much as physics in the 'real' world."

"Sounds logical, Thank you for correcting me"

"Can you think of any other differences that apply for one group and not the other?"

"We know more about agents and such than coppertops"

"Whilst that is true that is more just a straight difference between you than a difference between the Matrix and the Real World that is true for one group but not the other."

"True"

"The matrix for those plugged in, is reality. For us it is something else, a dream world if you will. I know for one, that seeing what Ive seen fo the real world I am in a position to make an informed decision about whther I want to be in the system or out of it.....Those still plugged in cant even make that decision, and they certainly dont have the perspective to do so. They have never experienced the real world to make a judgement."

"well..i ahve stated the differences for people like us.
For the inmates, there cannot be any differences, simply because they have NO knowledge of the real world, therefore not knowing anything outside what universe the matrix provides. You cannot percieve anything you have no experience of.."

"That's evading the question," says Melitus. "The point is to identify what would be different for a person plugged into the Matrix as opposed to a person living in the 'real' world. Whether that person KNOWS those differences is of no relevance at all- I want to know what you think the differences ARE. As opposed to the differences for people like you, who DO know."

"the main difference would be that they live a controlled life. They do not see the boudries of this controll, but they are there nonetheless.
and they are being used, without even knowing. "

"They dont mind not knowing, save a few like us who rebel. They would be happy living there without a second thought, because they know not what the truth is.

Another thing...we have the ability to leave the matrix. If we make a mistake or are seen by the wrong person at the wrong time, we just bolt to an exit and hopefully put ourselves out of harms way. Coppertops cant just jack out when they want to. They cant just say, I dont like the situation, let me jack out and wait a couple of days until things cool down. Its nto an option for them.

Ohh and food, because I for one, know that the rations they give us on the hover craft...well they blow. At least people in the matrix have some pleasure in what they're eating even if they dont know its not real. Heh."

"Indeed so," says Melitus. "Control is of course probably the biggest difference. Control exists on all sorts of levels wherever you are, but in the Matrix an additional level of great control is part of its design for the inmates. Ultimately, all Governening authorities are controlled by the Machines.

And indeed, you can not 'leave' the 'Real' World, whereas you can leave the Matrix; this is on the whole something inmates cannot do but, obviously, not always.

It is worth noting that the fact that at any point you could be overwritten by an Agent is a rather significant difference from the Real World which applies to the inmates, but not you. Code is so much more flexible than anything in physical reality."

yep..does he want to ask anything else?

(Yeah it looks like we answered that one well, i hope.)

There is a click and the starfield image changes.

"Please observe the starfield images carefully," says Melitus. "I want you to spot five differences between the image on the left, and the one on the right."

"Five...I cant seem to even find one...Whats the point, if I may ask."

"Well, let us see if the others do better first."

"Same here they seem to be the same"

(well..yeah..i'm pretty sure ush didn't take the pics and added 5 white dots somewhere in there......it has to be something else)

you could say that one is a picture depicting something real. the other...a copy. a...simulation

"In fact," says Melitus, "there are over 3000 differences between the two images. Why did you not point some of them out to me?"

"they appear to be the same could be that they are not but then I think it sn't a visual difference"

"There is a visual difference," says Melitus, "but it is beneath the threshold of your capacity to see."

"but still, they are there. there are stars in one, wich aren't in the other one"

"The difference is positional," says Melitus. "But indeed. You agree the differences exist independantly of your ability to perceive them, yes?"

"hmpf well we can not see everything, maybe if we saw the code"

(maybe they're from the real world, fire)
yes, ofcourse