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who would win??

well, apocalypse created war, who inturn beat juggernaut. apocalypse by his own account said wars power exceeded everybodies but his own. so if he was more powerful than war......... he should win. however, apocalypse is usually thwarted and written improperly compared to what he COULD be. it's hard to say. i'd say that apocalypse could counteract some, if not all of juggernauts magic. that could make him vulnerable to physicall force of sufficient degree. to many variables to say one would win or the other........

Alright, this is what im talking about. unstoppable vs. imovable. im putting my bet on apocalypse. basically because he's older, wiser, stronger, and has more power at his disposal. but they would still hammer each other for hours before juggernaut finally falls.

i doubt that physical battle is what apocalypse would use. more than likely intelligence would be the deciding factor.

yup, i know. still it would look great to see them bashing the hell out of each other.

i've often pondered just what would happen. does apocalypse have knowledge of magics? i'd love to see him with an enchanted pair of brass knuckles that could harm juggernaut physically. that would let cain feel "pain" again. like he used to when he was mortal.

however apocalypse always changes his body into some powerful weapons when having battle

but to what effect??? to somebody who is completely physically invulnerable, i doubt weapons would be the deciding factor. i think apocalypse could manhandle juggernaut though. he is stronger......... both have unknown limits, but i believe juggernaut caps off somewhere. where apocalypse could potentially be limitless. no rage, no thinking or willing himself stronger........ he just is. plus, he has a ton of experience cain doesn't, that and he has battle skills that are more than likely better than juggernaut's basic hand to hand techniques. the more i think about it apocalypse written properly should win.

i think they would start fighting, them someone lame like jubillee or cyclops would come in and beat both their punk asses

that's funny considering juggernaut clapped his hands together and knocked jubilee and her teammates out with a thunder clap.......... that and cyclops most powerful beams don't even register. they were once described as "being able to rip a small planet in half" with juggernaut simply smiling..........

yea....i think that was the point in me mentioning two weak asses....they would still manage to beat two 'doosh' bags like apoc and jugs...both incredibly strong, but never manage to win

juggernaut usually loses to a telepath.......... i don't get where you think he "loses" all the time

not all the time......just when he's in comics......

hero/villain concept ==== crap

yea i think thats my point guys.......

got your point. apoc and juggy both beat the living hell out of each other. then when they're literally exhausted, shadow cat jumps in and slaps them both thus knocking them out. LOLOLOL

check out my new thread....hahahaha.........by the way, ur exactly right

i think this happened once in a silver surfer comics. morg and terrax were beating the crap out of each other, and just as morg was about to kill terrax, they get zapped by lasers from robots or androids. but because they were already exhausted from fighting each other, they had no more strength to fight back. can't remember what happened after that.

true juggernaut doesn't tire though.........

yea bishop once knocked out a tired juggernaut too...oh wait.....i thbought he doesnt tire......hahahaha

that was onslaught related. people shouldn't compare that version of juggernaut to the real juggernaut.

unless ur a fanboy, there is no reason t believe that that was not the real juggs.....i will concede though that the present juggernaut who appears on the x-men roster in uncanny x-men is a farce compared to classic jugs....however, the jugs in onslought is the same classsic jugs

not true........ considering he was afraid. the same juggernaut that challenged eternity, the beyonder, thanos with the heart...... all who literally would blink onslaught or juggernaut out of existence. he pulled a gem from his chest (that wasn't there in the first place). also, juggernauts clothing and skin were physically unbreakable. the binding force of his molecules couldn't be severed. he didn't tire. he didn't need to eat/breathe/drink or sleep. he was sustained by magics alone. that and onslaught severed the bonds that made him juggernaut somehow. so if he's severed from his power source he was simply an upgraded cain marko. this is a feat that bishop couldn't perform to "true" juggernaut. the same juggernaut that when jumping from water knocked bishop unconscious. the onslaught storyline doesn't depict true juggernaut's power/character.

Juggernaut is only invulnerable when he is confrontintg a force that is inferior to the power of the gem of Cytorak or the pocket dimension that provides his powers, thus onslaught was more powerful than this gem....if u disagree that means that juggernaut is not vulnerable to any force in the marvel universe including the living tribunal or eternity or roma.....if thats what u think then u must be a fan boy

well, LT, or Eternity don't even have to confront juggernaut physically. i don't understand why you would say that. of coarse he's obviously not a match for them. i dunno how powerful onslaught was (pretty powerful considering he took out a good portion of marvel). but i'm saying that in the onlsaught storyline juggernauts power was not depicted as normal.......................

u didnt understand anything i just said......but oh well

you are right.......... it didn't make any sense.............

i kinda get it............ juggernaut's on a level of power let's say on scale from 1 to 100 he's an 8. onslaught a 9. so onslaught can harm him physically. i don't agree with that. but hey to each his own.

no....but i didnt expect u to agree....even though onslought raised his hand and unleashed an EMP throughout all of manhattan and basically defeated all the earthly heroes at one time.....i think u and wolverine 8888 should argue over who would win, juggernaut, wolverine, or Goku?

lol........ yea, well i'm far from a fanboy. i have simply researched the character. let's disregaurd odin, or anybody above that level of power. because they could do basically anything they wanted with juggernaut. no physical confrontation, just simply whatever they wanted. now, let's say odin is an 11 on the scale. nobody that is 10 or below should be able to hurt juggernaut because he is physically invulnerable. completely physically invulnerable. his powers are based on the laws of physics, you can no more drop a glass of water and have it fall up, than you can hurt the juggernaut physically. it doesn't matter how strong the guy is dropping the glass it will always fall down. it doesn't matter how strong the guy is, they will never be able to physically hurt juggernaut. so should it be that by somehow they work around this little fact, juggernaut does have a healing factor. one that works at speeds atleast as great as hulks. so when he landed from onslaughts "physical" attack, he should have been long healed from it. juggernaut was not depicted as normal in that crossover. plane and simple.

what storyline did onslaught??.......does he have any special power?..i can find him in the directory(class100)

he had professor charles xaviers power, with magneto's also.

only magnto's ability can do attack, so onslaught is not so powerful?

well, later he gained the ability to warp reality also, by gaining access to franklin richards powers. but even before that he was immensly powerful...... somehow.

im speechless.....what r u trying to say....that the onlsaught story....a story where every old school marvel character "died" (except forHulk) was not properly edited, because juggernaut got his ass kicked?....i think u should write a letter to Stan Lee and let him know what happend...u r proving my point about the fanboy shit....Jugs is not physically invulnerable, only invulnerable to people who posses less power than the gym...however, onslought clearly had more power than the gem, than juggernaut, and any other earthly hero....so onslaught isnt more powerful than earth's ombined forces?....my bad....so juggernaut is?....fanboy....juggernaut has only appeared in like 20 issues of comics prior to the onlaught story and u dont think there could be new things to learn about him?....however characters like captain amercia who have been around since the 40' s die and u think this shit is improperly edited...ur crazy

i didn't say that onslaught wasn't more powerful than juggernaut. i simply said he shouldn't have been able to do what he did to juggernaut. juggernaut has been in more issues than 20............... that was stupid. see what i mean. do you even have any juggernaut comics or are you debating off hear say information? let's look at war hulk for example. he physically overwhelmed juggernaut, but he couldn't hurt him. War hulk possessed power that was beyond comprehension. probably more so than onslaught himself. considering it's the most powerful version of hulk (including maestro) who basically defeated a whole slew of people. so in conclusion, just because onslaught possess greater power, doesn't mean that he could hurt juggernaut physically. it just doesn't make any sense considering even thors godforce couldn't hurt him, yet onslaught was diggin around in his chest casually with his fingers. talk about contradiction.

i can get thr meaning....although there is ouslaugth has unlimit power..only if he use physical attack to hit jugg, jugg wont get any hurt....am i right??

im aware of jugs appearances, before onslaught, he hadnt been in many issues, that was my point....I own his first appearnce and many after that, they mostly all end in him getting defeated, anyway,...and no war hulk is not the most powerful version of hulk, and maestro sure as hell isnt(maestro is the same as professor, but gone mad after WWIII)....mindless hulk is the strongest....hulk that kicked the avengers ass and went toe to toe with onlsought.....(u dont sound like u know much about the hulk but u keep bringing him up when he has nothing to do with the subject, maybe cuz u dont like him)....if Hulk were in war form he would have only been a little stronger and done a little better than juggernaut and would have gotten his ass kicked just like jugs did...however he probably would have healed instantly, because he has true instant healing, and would not have been taken down by bishop.

how do you figure that the mindless hulk is the strongest? the one that braced a 150 billion ton mountain? well war simply uprooted an entire pyramid and heaved it. no getting mad. he simply had 2 universes worth of energy on command. he didn't have to get angry to use it. he is the most powerful version of hulk. also, maestro started at a base level twice that of any other hulk incarnation, not to mention that he had the ability to increase his strength with anger also. that and he was vastly intelligent. both incarnations above are more powerful than mindless hulk, there is no reason to think otherwise.

I read the comic where Hulk lifed 150 billion tons worth of mountain last night. He wasn't mindless....hell he wasn't even mad. 10 seconds before he's holding up like 4 good guys (Spidey included) and he's trying to run from Doom's bad guys.

He started getting weaker so Reed Richards started talking crap and he was able to maintain his leverage long enough to have Reed put together some device using....ummm....Spidey's web shooter, and someone elses equipment to hook up Human torch and i believe Captain Marvel to Iron Man's armor to blast through the mountain. Oh and Thor was laying his "heaviest blows' (according to his quote) into the mountain trying to dig them out, but it only sounded like a little tap from how deep they were. Bitchin comic really.

cool

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I read the comic where Hulk lifed 150 billion tons worth of mountain last night. He wasn't mindless....hell he wasn't even mad. 10 seconds before he's holding up like 4 good guys (Spidey included) and he's trying to run from Doom's bad guys.

He started getting weaker so Reed Richards started talking crap and he was able to maintain his leverage long enough to have Reed put together some device using....ummm....Spidey's web shooter, and someone elses equipment to hook up Human torch and i believe Captain Marvel to Iron Man's armor to blast through the mountain. Oh and Thor was laying his "heaviest blows' (according to his quote) into the mountain trying to dig them out, but it only sounded like a little tap from how deep they were. Bitchin comic really.

You're talking about Secret Wars aren't you? Well, Spiderman in that saga also defeated the entire X-Men team by HIMSELF - crazy huh? Hulk lifting a 150 billion tons WITHOUT getting mad is totally out of character. Hulk, when he's calm, is around Class 100 in strength or (translated) can LIFT 100 tons. He's going to have to get pretty f*cking mad to life 150 billion tons.

Turtle bulldonkey, it is NOT out of character. Is Hulk jumping out of the atmosphere "out of character?" It states that Savage Hulk can lift ***at least*** 100 Tons when calm. Exact words? No problem.

"Strength: This incarnation can lift approximately 100 tons as a minimum. This incarnation represents the epitome of the "madder he gets, the stronger he gets" and thus is for all practical purposes has no limit to the strength he can reach."

Notice it says AS A MINIMUM. Not ONLY 100 tons when calm. Your translation is incorrect.

Juggernautfan, you are incorrect period about Mindless Hulk...as usual.

Mindless Hulk is the one that waltzed through the entire - ENTIRE - Avengers such that Dr. Strange had no choice but to teleport him to another dimension.

MINDLESS Hulk was the one that punched the hole in Onslaught's armor when the entire combined might of earth's heroes could not doink it.

LoL @ your pyramid reference. The mountain RANGE that Hulk hoisted in Secret Wars was said to have "dwarfed the Andes." Do you personally know of any pyramids the size of a mountain RANGE?

I don't remember him beating them, I think he landed some hits and dodged around. It wasn't really a full fight, how many panels did it take? He mamaged to escape, then got part of his memories wiped. I don't think he could take the entire team.

I'm back home tomorrow, I'll look at it, I might be wrong. It's been a while since I've read it.

he can't even take wolverine they fought be for it was a tie

If you're gonna argue that onslaught being able to beat the crap out of juggy was improperly written and out of line for the description of the character, then i will also argue that juggernaut bein able to withstand thor's GEB was improperly written and pure crap. i agree that juggy is ALMOST invulnerable when it comes to physical attacks... but the GEB is magical in nature, and by all means it should have fried juggy away from his gem.

Took several panels. He made each and every one of them look SILLY. Nightcrawler is their quickest member and Nightcrawler was amazed by how quick Spiderman was. He casually backhanded Wolverine and knocked him about 10 feet.

Check in the Doc Ock vs. Wolverine thread. I state the same thing. In the Secret Wars Spiderman single handedly whoops the crap out of Wolverine, Storm, Rogue, Cyclops, Colossus, and Nightcrawler. They all admit to it in Secret Wars # when Hulk lifts the 150 Billion Ton mountain range that did in fact "dwarf the Andes" while he was NOT unusually angry. He didn't have any time to get angry, but at best you could say that the adrenaline that pumped through him when he saw that mountain range falling on him would suffice enough to fuel him like that.

The x-men and the Wasp are in Magneto's base and Magneto manages to piss of the Wasp. She is also further angered by the X-Men's unwillingness to help Captain America's group. The attacks and gets the better of Magneto, Wolverine, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, and Storm. And afterwards Wolverine says and I quote "First Spider-Man trashes us (Secret Wars #3)....Now the Wasp!! I've had it with gettin' dumped on my butt!"

He did get beat up by Spiderman, along with Cyclops, Colossus, Storm, Nightcrawler, and Rogue.

Stop thinking Wolverine always beats Spidey...because you ARE wrong.

yep.....spidey kicked wolvie's ass along with the rest of the x-men...wolverine is not in his class, stop being a fan boy....war hulk is not the strongest version of the Hulk, it is mindless hulk, the same on that dropped the avengers and cracked onslaught's armor....mindless hulk and juggernaut have never met...good thing, cuz some fans dont want to see jugs die.

well mindless hulk and juggernaut have met. hey met twice for sure that i know, but the comice i have where they met they only fought in one and it was before juggernaut had his full body armor. I'm sure juggernaut could beat any of the hulks on the right day. Though hulk may be stronger than juggy, juggs is still indestructable while in his armor. If wolverines blades cant get juggys helmet off i highly doubt hulk would be able to smash it off. But yeah Hulk would more than most likely conquer juggernaugt 7 times out of 10, as for A-poc, juggernaut does not stand a chance. Also, anyone o the x-men would destroy spiderman, excluding shadow cat and jubilee

I'm so sick of Juggernaut fan boys coming in here saying he's indestructable and he's invincible and all that crap. He isn't.

He's got super endurance, and his defense very very strong, but he would get chumped by the Hulk 10 out of 10 times...as long as Juggernaut didn't hit him from behind to start the fight. I've never ever seen or heard of Juggernaut even coming close to displaying the type of strength that Hulk has. Theoretically, the Hulk could throw Juggernaut to the damn sun with the strength he's displayed in his comics.

but war hulk lifted the pyramid off the ground on his own power, then simply tossed it through the air. the hulk that "lifted" the mountain actually had it dropped on him then simply braced it on his back. who's to say that another part of the mountain wasn't touching and he was only lifting half that weight, or even 1/4 of it. it was simply on his back and he braced it. war hulk is stronger, he doesn't have to get mad to get stronger, he simply summons 2 UNIVERSES worth of energy. i would say that 2 universes dwarfs any mountain range. hell all of the mountain ranges.

then you havn't read the hulk/juggernaut battles my friend. you are now the fanboy. because hulk has NEVER beaten juggernaut running off his own steam. hulk has his own comic book. hulk has had more appearances. hulk has had more time to prove how strong he can be. juggernaut does not have these same things. he makes cameo's in other peoples books. so really how can you say that hulk can beat juggernaut 10 out of 10 times when he has not done so to date?

but who's to say that war hulk cannot perform these same feats? juggernaut took on 7 exemplars. he defeated them. the same exemplars defeated nearly double (13) avengers. that is a testament to how powerful juggernaut can be. yet he was belittled by WAR hulk. i also don't believe he "dropped" the avengers, he was throwing them around and thor stated they were in too close quarters to be battling him because they were getting in each others way.

name a couple of comics where Juggernaut beats the Hulk and i'll start believing you. I am NOT a fanboy of the Hulk by any means. He's not one of my fav characters and other than the fact that i saw him lift (support) a 150 billion ton mountain i really don't like him much at all.

Show me one source that backs up your claim that he is invincible or inulnerable...or cannont feel pain. And then...i'll stop believing YOU to be the fan boy.

let me clear something up, you are comparing a battle that wasn't shown onslaught vs. juggernaut #1. and a battle that happened in the mind, onslaught vs. juggernaut #2. it was well within onslaughts power to do what he did. dig around in juggernauts chest to get a ruby that wasn't there (IN HIS MIND). who's to say that juggernaut couldn't have cracked onslaughts armor if he had physically fought him??? you? cause onslaught defeated juggernaut how he has been defeated so many times in the past. by using psionics.

the only 4 times they have fought was inconclusive. hulk #172 inconclusive. hulk 402, juggernaut soundly thrashed the "smart" version of hulk. but used trickery to do so. still his own power though. hulk 404, 2 punchs from hulk then a psychic *spelling* backlash wiped out the avengers and juggernaut. and again in hulk 457 when hulk was upgraded by apocalypse to draw in 2 universes worth of energy. which is pretty unfair considering he was going up against 2 universes that was meant to battle celestials. but it wasn't hulks normal level of power. so i guess if you wanted to count the wins, it is 1 each, and 2 inconclusive battles. which surely doesn't prove that "hulk is stronger"

i also don't care that you don't "believe me" i have already stated that thors god force gave pause to a celestial and drove back galactus. it didn't even HARM JUGGERNAUT in the slightest. he has rarely been hurt in the past. usually when he is hurt it is because of magics or because he is in a weakened state. not because somebody can physically hurt him while he is running at his normal level of power. there is nothing to indicate that hulks punches could ever hurt juggernaut. because they havn't to date.

Hulk #402. Juggernaut tricked The Hulk into thinking he was a normal person, and almost killed him.

Every fight they've had, something would happen to give one the advantage. When Hulk beat Juggernaut, he was War Hulk. When Juggernaut beat Hulk, he tricked him. I would love to see them have a fight where they don't get interupted or are given an advantage.

also, it's not out of character for somebody who is completely physically invulnerable to take the godforce. but it is out of character to have juggernaut run from onslaught considering he "doesn't run from a fight". also, it's politics they used juggernaut to elevate onslaught to give him credibility. because juggernaut had not been beaten physically before. it is not true to the character at all.

exactly what i would like to see, but stupid people say "hulk is stronger no matter what period crap" then you have the ones that say "hulk will win 50 out of 50 times" which is totally untrue also.

Sorry as an alleged "fan boy" of hulk...as so proclaimed by the Juggernautfanboy himself. What the hell is war hulk?

War hulk was a horseman for apocalypse. fitted with celestial tech, that harnessed power from the "heroes reborn" universe created by franklin richards and the main stream marvel universe which is what you read about all the time. he had 2 universe's worth of energy coursing about him, and apocalypse knew this so he created war to battle celestials. who are extremely powerful beings.

i know what a celestial is. Thanks for the info on War Hulk...i'll go pick up a comic sometime.

So far how many times have these two brutes fought? And have they ever fought toe to toe without some sort of mitigating factor?

also, war hulk had weapons to aid him in battle. a sword and a whip or tentacle that shot from his arm. not that he used them much. but he still had them.

Wrong. It was a good fight, and Thor had to give his best shots, but he still managed to kick ass. It ended with Hulk being knocked down and trying to use his statue as a weapon, which didn't work. Then dr. Strange arrived.

Don't believe me ? Read the comic.

Wrong. Again. First of all, it was not the "combined might of earth's heroes". Where was Spider-Man ? DD ? Where were the Canadian heroes ? The British ? The Russian (yes, they exist) ? Please, I beg you, don't make me sum up all the heroes who weren't there, because it will be a very long list ! Just the X-Men, Avengers and the Fantastic Four, and a few others, such as Cable and so.

The "combined might of earth's heroes" is much much more than these guys, don't care how impressive they are.

Second, the Hulk did NOT punch a hole in Onslaught's armour all by himself. He had serious help from Jean Grey, who turned him with her telepatic powers into mindless Hulk (so that he would become strong and mad enough to take on Onslaught BEFORE getting killed by him !!). If she did not help him, he could have ended dead...

Last but not least, Onslaught wanted that somebody cracked his armor, so that he could evolve further. So you could say that Onslaught helped the Hulk.

Don't believe me ? Read the comic.

Clearly you enjoy my boot being lodged in your ass considering that is the outcome of each and EVERY time you call yourself "calling me out." Thor did not kick SHIT considering he THREW Mjolnir at Hulk after Hulk picked up the ADAMANTIUM STATUE. The hammer HIT the statue causing the ringing sensation.

LoL, first you say "he still managed to kick his ass" and attempt to substantiate that GROSS exaggeration by saying "Hulk was knocked down." Exactly what species of dumbass ARE you?

LoL, did this NOT occur AFTER Hulk snuffed Iron Man's Iron Fist, BACKHANDED Power Man through 6-8 buildings, CLAPPED OUT The Human Torch's flame, DOINKED Vision on the top of his head sending him tens of feet deep into the earth, and knocked OUT Starfox - all of which you so CONSPICUOUSLY forgot to mention?

Dumbass.

Doo be doo be doo...LoL

"The Avengers...The Fantastic Four...and everyone ELSE we could find. We're EARTH'S LAST LINE OF DEFENSE, people."

The combined. Might. Of. Earth's. Heroes.

Who gives a hoot if Jean Grey turned Savage Hulk into MINDLESS HULK? Did she FURTHER AUGMENT his power? NO. Hulk did it ALL BY HIS LONESOME.

LoL @ Onslaught helped Hulk crack his armor. Clearly you failed 3rd grade reading comprehension.

Twice.

Lol even further @ "read the comic." Purchased and read this what, 8 years ago?

Go e-bay a damn clue.

You are simply pathetic. LoL, did you not read the comic wherein it clearly STATES that Hulk is the ONLY reason that the entire mountain range that DWARFED THE ANDES did not collapse on them?

He summons 2 universes worth of energy and can only TOSS a pyramid into the air that weighs but a fraction of 150 BILLION tons? If he had "2 universes worth of energy" he should be able to toss the damn thing to Pluto.

But he can only "toss it into the air."

Care to also provide us a DIRECT LINK to where it says War Hulk is the strongest?

You cannot, because you will not FIND one.

Please stick to Juggernaut; you know nothing about Hulk.

hahahahaha

Mindless Hulk is basicially the incarnation of strength...he would wreck anyone, basically, and he is far stronger than WAR HULK, two dimesnoins of energy or not...and yes...Banner Hulk did lift 150-Billion Tons, his strength is equivalent to savage Hulk, he is stronger than professor and Grey Hulk, but inferior in strength to Mindless Hulk

there are too many Hulks.

Yea coz i know what ur talking about lol.

Well, I give a hoot .

The Hulk knew that he wouldn't stand a chance against Onslaught - that's a fact. Therefore he swallowed his pride and asked Jean Grey to make him extremely mad, so that he would be a lot stronger than he would normally be at the beginning of the fight. That's also a fact.

The ONLY reason he asked it, was because he realized Onslaught would kill him BEFORE he could get mad and strong enough. It (normally) takes some time for the Hulk in order to get really mad. But he realized he would not have enough time against someone as powerful as Onslaught, so he asked Jean Grey to help him. There's no shame in that (whatever gets the job done I suppose) but obviously you don't want to look any further than your own biased opinion.

So Hulk did it NOT ALL by his lonesome, he had serious help. Without her help, and this is very important, he could have been killed by Onslaught. And even with that help, he still ended UNDER Onslaught (his "final" punch cracked indeed his armor, but did not defeat Onslaught, quite the opposite).

Much to learn you have, young grasshopper.

apparently you know nothing either. can you provide a link that say's that mindless hulk is more powerful than war? he tossed the pyramid as far as he needed to. he was trying to hit somebody with it. so it landed exactly where he wanted it to. which means he had control over it. a complete stone structure weighs quite a bit, and he didn't even break a sweat in doing so. hulk was the only thing that separtated the mountain from dropping on them, but that doesn't mean that other parts of the mountain wasn't touching. he might have had leverage from some other parts. war hulk didn't have to stop with that pyramid, he could have summoned more energy, he could have supported the mountian, he simply is the stronger version. maybe you should do a little more research yourself instead of being one of the all mighty "know it alls"

also onlsaught used hulk to crack his armor. it was time to evolve into another being yet again. as he had done several times already. he said he was then beyond physical harm after hulk had released him from the armor.

He might've needed Hulk to crack the armor, but the point is that Hulk managed to do it, while everyone else couldn't.

but it was only because onslaught wanted it to happen. he used hulk as a pawn. if he wanted the kid down the street playing in the sand box to crack his armor then that would have been what happened. but he used hulk.........................

saying that Hulk was a pawn of onslought is a jump to conclusions...there is no concrete evidence of this...and about comparing War to the version of the Mindless Hulk, and then bringing up the secret wars mountain u just prove u dont know anything about the hulk, again....that was not mindless hulk that lifted the mountain, it was banner hulk...jean grey didnt make the hulk stronger, she changed the version he was in...mindless Hulk existed before jean turned off his intelligence...he could have asked her to make him Devil Hulk, or Guilt Hulk....but they could be more dangerous than onslought too...War is not the strongest version of the Hulk...he isnt even another version...he is just a improved version of professor or savage hulk

goddamnit, more hulks?? when will it end!?

Yeah just materialize Guilt Hulk or Devil Hulk and badda bing somebody died

The Hulk being able to carry 150 billion tons (Secret Wars) is waay out of character. I don't know what the writer was thinking, but clearly he had been drinking too much.

but you still have no proof that war isn't the strongest version. he was channeling 2 universes worth of energy, which is why apocalypse wanted him in the first place. apparently he thought that mindless hulk wasn't good enough for what he wanted. i still stick by what i said. i guess we will have to agree to disagree.

plus we know it was how onlsaught worked. he used people several times through his crossover. he also said something along the lines of "i'm free of my armor and beyond physical harm" which could imply that he used hulk to bust him free of it.

Im not arguing that War is not the strongest version of the hulk............Im arguing that War isnt even his own version!...like i said he is still just Savage Hulk or Professor.....with some implants and stuff....why?....Apoc can control that version...but he cannot control mindless Hulk,...I dont even think he could best Mindless Hulk, but he could definitely take Professor....the version of the Hulk is defined by which personality he is....not his costume or implants...he was just an improvement over that current version....U quoted my entire statement....did u understand what meant by your bad comparison of War to Mindless Hulk when u mention the 150 billion ton mountain, that wasnt even the right version of the hulk that lifted the mountain, i just think it damaged ur credibility on the Hulk....on this thread at least....well anyway...do u understand what it takes to be a version of the Hulk?....he has to be one of those guys fighting for dominance in Banner's mind...War is not one of those guys....he is just savage hulk, or professor....with improvements....professor with the power of 2 universes is still inferior to mindless Hulk....in a physical match at least...professor at twice his strength is still relatively weak compared to mindless hulk....he is a good match up for juggernaut though....he is the version that juggernaut has fought in the two most recent encounters they've had (i think)...maybe because the two have a finite strength level, so it keeps it fair and interesting...whoever wrote the story with the pyramid did a poor job anyway....u cant pick up a pyramid, it is not held together by cement, it is shear weight that holds it together....if anyone, except maybe gladiator, picked up a pyramid, they would just pick up a couple ten ton blocks and the rest would crumble...the proof Mindless Hulk is stronger than War?...War was quantitatively slightly stronger than juggernaut....juggernaut got raped by the young, smaller, and less powerful version of onslought....yet Mindless Hulk went toe to toe with the biggest and strongest, most inhuman form of onlsought....while he was still in physical form....do not argue that it wasnt a credible story, like u always do....it was the story where they killed the fantastic four and the avengers, ending the original volumes of FF, Avengers, Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America, etc...I think this would be the most closley edited story ever made...if u want to argue, didnt onslaught happen before the War Hulk story, meaning War fought the even more downgraded version of juggernaut, and was still barely stronger? that would not make him very impressive would it, if thats the case then there is no way u can call War the strongest...this is just my opinion however, as always its ok that we disagree...but i think my argument is pretty good and has a lot of facts...instead of me just jumping to conclusions and making stuff up, like a lot of people have done earlier

i understand what you are saying, i don't even remember why we are aurguing about it. i just believe war hulk is more powerful physically and is smarter than mindless hulk obviously. even if it's not technically considered it's own "incarnation. that's all i am saying because he simply had 2 universes worth of energy. plus about onslaught yet again, he defeated juggernaut *the only battle on panel* by using his weakness. psionics. so you are comparing a battle in the mind vs. a battle in the physical realm. also, what version of hulk was in #172? because that version wasn't smart, so it was probably mindless or something close to it. even then he didn't prove to be stronger than juggernaut. since onslaught juggernaut's power has been waning. it goes up, it goes down, but marvel has yet to state why. until recently it has just stayed down. way down. he can't even summon his old red armor, it is a mock blue armor. apparently so he could replace colossus as the x-men strong arm. but war hulk fought a legitimate version of juggernaut. IMO. so did d'spayre. i believe juggernaut was also himself in the 8th day series. but at most other times he is severely weakened in power by being drained of it or losing it without explanation. i don't know what you want to know other than that.

#172 is the regular savage hulk i think....it could have been banner hulk but i dont have the issue with me....probably savage....definitely not mindless...he has only been in a few issues and he is not even capable of speech really...yea i guess we will have to agree to disagree because i just proved how War Hulk is not his own incarnation or the strongest version and u didnt refute it at all...except for u saying he is stronger cuz of 2 universes...but still two universes of that incarnation (Professor i think) r nothing to a hulk with limitless strength....and like i said, the onslought fight was more than likely well edited because of how much the story affected all of Marvel's business...yea Jugs against War was apretty legit version of Jugs...although i think 8th day was being enhabced above his normal levels...didnt he and Thor have a fight when he was in the 8th day version, and not totally in control of himself?

in 8th day he was a little more affected by cyttorak's control. so he was using more of his potential. just like when he was ripping through dimensional barriers. an outside influence was keeping his mind under control while they used his full potential of juggernaut's power to destroy their own home dimension. whatever that might have been. but i just don't think you PROVED that mindless hulk was more powerful than war. you said he had "unlimited" strength. like i said, he has to be enraged to get to a certain limits. one being can only get sooo mad. but war just simply summoned the energy needed. he didn't have to get angry, he simply called upon it to use it. he can do anything that mindless hulk can do. isn't savage hulk just as powerful as mindless? or wasn't heroes reborn hulk nearly as powerful as both of them? the truth about hulk is alot of the more stupid versions is that they have not been tested to thier limits. so how do you know that mindless is even more powerful than savage? i still stick by what i say, that war *weather it be it's own incarnation or not* is the most powerful version of hulk to date. he was made to battle celestials.

if you want to talk about different incarnations, can you prove that maestro wasn't more powerful than mindless?? cause he stood at a base level double that of any previous hulk, yet he still had the ability to grow stronger as he got angrier. if my vote had to go to any "real incarnation" of hulk it would be maestro. not mindless. but i still believe war more powerful. but hey that be just my opinion. and as they say, they are like assholes, everybody has one.

i love that saying. opinions are like assholes. everbody has one, and they all stink.

hahahaha....u again prove u dont know much about Hulk....Maestro, War, Professor....they r all the same incarnation man....Maestro is just hella old...still professor, just insane and old...just like war is just professor and really suped up...Maestro and War would be a good match...so would maestro and Jugs.

if i'm not mistaken maestro is a different incarnation all together, war hulk, maybe not, because he only appeared for a single issue. i'm not so sure that maestro would prove to be a good match for war. he just summoned energy. a multi-verse worth of it. yet you think maestro, or any previous incarnation is a match for him? define the different incarnations of hulk. he has so many, who can keep up with them?

Ultimate Apoc has just been introduced, but we'll probably have to wait until next month to see what he's like. I think ultimate juggernaught was introduced a while back, and he IS a mutant in the ultimate universe.

Never, it's about time someone did something about your attitude here. You're just out of control with the rudeness. I don't know how many times you've been beaten to a pulp in your life, but I'm starting to think it wasn't enough.

Pointing out errors in his post would have been enough, without calling him a "Dumbass" or the "foot lodged up your ass" comments.

....and who the hell are you save yet another clueless fanboy running up in threads with inaccurate facts (Well, Grey Hulk starts at 70 TONS)?

LoL @ Ward Cleaver and his "it's about time someone did something about your attitude." LoL again @ being ignorant enough to ASSUME that one's posting habits necessarily reflect one's "real life" demeanor. LoL @ not having a clue what previous "debates" preceded said commentary.

Just ignorant.

I rest my case.

Wonderful. Now pester someone else with your "holier than thou" pseudo gospelisms.

And brush up on your Hulk knowledge (or lack thereof) while you are at it.

And Juggernaut knowledge. And Gladiator knowledge. And Silver Surfer knowledge, and Onslaught knowledge...

you've got some issues dude...

Issue these nuts on your chin.

you dont have any nuts to put on my chin

Why are u all flaming never or watever its called on forums. Because he wants people to know the facts? because he knows them? because you never will? because he says what he wants and doesnt care what anyone thinks?
Now you can all start attacking me, say what u want i dont care.
Also something i've been wanting to say for a while. Senior Member below peoples names should be for SENIOR MEMBERS not people who have joined this forum a week ago, hope u know who im talking about

Lol...

Don't worry, I'm not going to attack you .

As a matter of fact, I haven't attacked or bashed anybody on this forum (I only defended my points of view from time to time).

i dont attack people unless they are ignorant know-it-alls

or unless they deserve it

fair enough

Never lighten up!

I bet your mother does.

Holy double sex organs, Batman!

juggernaut would put apoc through a few walls at first but apoc is to powerfull and smart for jugg. plus apoc would already have the battle mapped out step by step on how hes going to crush jugg. over all even without apoc planning how hes going to go at him would just over power him in the end....

I bet Apocalypse could hurt Juggenraut with own powers. Apocalypse would defeat Juggernaut easily.

Bump.

apoc has too much power for juggernaut.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Mindless Hulk is stronger than War?...War was quantitatively slightly stronger than juggernaut....juggernaut got raped by the young, smaller, and less powerful version of onslought....yet Mindless Hulk went toe to toe with the biggest and strongest, most inhuman form of onlsought....while he was still in physical form....do not argue that it

War wasn't a test of strength but a test of the Celestial technology that Apocalypse had IIR the text of the comic correctly.

Also Juggernaut never fought a physical incarnation of Onslaught. While he may have had a mental image of himself, it wasn't until later once Nate pull Prof X out of the astral plane that Onslaught figured out how to create a physical body.

Apocalypse would've won through cunning pre-War Hulk, and through what he discovered his new C-tech is capable of post-War Hulk.
Ha, actually just power wise in that same issue Apocalypse acknowledge that Juggernaut is more powerful than he is when he referred to Juggernaut as the 'X-Men's most puissant' foe...which is why he wanted to test his new tech against him. Hulk was just the best vehicle for the job.

Originally posted by lft4ded
War wasn't a test of strength but a test of the Celestial technology that Apocalypse had IIR the text of the comic correctly.

Also Juggernaut never fought a physical incarnation of Onslaught. While he may have had a mental image of himself, it wasn't until later once Nate pull Prof X out of the astral plane that Onslaught figured out how to create a physical body.

Apocalypse would've won through cunning pre-War Hulk, and through what he discovered his new C-tech is capable of post-War Hulk.
Ha, actually just power wise in that same issue Apocalypse acknowledge that Juggernaut is more powerful than he is when he referred to Juggernaut as the X-Men's most powerful foe...which is why he wanted to test his new tech against him. Hulk was just the best vehicle for the job.
Ahahahahhahahahaha

Take it Apoc fans, take it all!

Apoc would win because his celestial armor has already been proven to bypass juggs enchantment. Although if you guys wanna break down of why never to mention Juggernaut and Onslaught togehter just check out the last two pages of the war Hulk vs Trion Juggs thread I'll bump it for you guys.

Originally posted by lft4ded
Ha, actually just power wise in that same issue Apocalypse acknowledge that Juggernaut is more powerful than he is

Where did you get that from, he never said that, his other, but enver mentionin he surpasses his own. He only wanted to test Hulk. If Apocalypse would, he would crush Juggernaut. That is Apocalypse pwer, so it's his own power, he has it for thounsands years.

Originally posted by Xplosive
his other, but enver mentionin he surpasses his own.

It's in Apocalypse's word balloon. He wanted to test his new-found Celestial stuff against the X-Men's most puissant foe. I remembered it because it was the first time I had seen the word...and it resembles another word so I thought Apocalypse was calling Juggernaut a...punk!

I don't think (memory is fickle) he said 'one of the X...' but 'most'. Which would include himself. Juggernaut's the only foe that regularly waltzed through the X-Men until a telepath tagged him out. Even Apocalypse was defeated by X-Factor (original 5). Juggernaut eats them for breakfast.

Apoc would own Juggernaut - too much power, too many abilities...What exactly can Juggernaut do other than the "unstoppable" Juggernaut do other than walk into somthing waving his arms around?....The Juggernaut's "power" is finite - Apoc's is not...