Agnostics or Atheists

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Arahael
Is anybody here an agnostic or an atheist? Me? I'm an agnostic. I think that there is a slight chnace that there may be a higher power, but right now it seems pretty unlikely. I'm gonna need some proof before I go back to believin'. Anyone else?

Arahael
I mean I used to think I was an atheist, but now that seems a bit extreme.

Arahael
Are you telling me there are no non-beleivers here?

The Omega

Linkalicious
i agree with the Queen herself, The Omega on this one. Atheist for the same reasons.

WindDancer
I don't get it. If you said you have doubts then why believe? If you chosen to question your faith that's fine. If you need proof of a higher being then seek philosophical inquires. Don't settle for just mere scientific discoveries. There are plenty of things that the mind cannot grasp. Science isn't everything, there is more to life than the mechanics behind an object.

Fire
I dont know, their could be something, I have my views on what it is but I won't be disappointed if it isn't there

Arahael
So what are you saying WinnDancer? That you actually believe?

Arahael
Sorry I meant WindDancer.

WindDancer
I'm not religious as in faithful believer. I tend to think that God is a philosophical being that uses the mind to communicate with humans. For me the thinking mind is what really matters in existence. It can be consider a bridge between us and that unknown universe that hasn't been found. For me is all about a philosophical mind. At the same time I encourage ppl to question their own reasoning.

Arahael
Anyway, Philospophy is alright I suppose, but without real, tangible evidence you really don't have any support for your arguement.

WindDancer
But what do you consider reality?

Arahael
What do you mean?

WindDancer
Everything you see in the world consist of objects. Certain objects have changes. What causes those changes? In other words why is there change in the world? Science can explain the mechanics but about the reasons behind those changes? What is their purpose? That's what I aim with the question of reality.

Gregory
What makes you think the laws of physics have a reason? Why can't they just be?

Arahael
There are chnages in the world becuase everything is constantly evolving.

WindDancer
Gregory> I don't question the laws of physics, what I question is mostly the origin of the movement. Is there a prime mover that cause the reaction in the first place? or is all matter constanly working that make the causes happen?. I tend to think that everything has a reason. Including things like a phenomenon.

Corlindel
I am a strong Agnostic...and skeptic too.

So..Congrats Arahael...And:

"An Agnostic does not accept any `authority' in the sense in which religious people do. He holds that a man should think out questions of conduct for himself. Of course, he will seek to profit by the wisdom of others, but he will have to select for himself the people he is to consider wise..."

Bertrand Russel

"The agnostic will find his ends in his own heart and not in an external command"

Bertrand Russel

Arahael
I'm pretty sure that it's the constnat movement of matter that causes reactions and change. I've never expereinced a phenomenom.

Corlindel
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/humftp/E-text/Russell/agnostic.htm

Arahael
My whole reason for not believing in God, or things of that nature, is because religion requires worshiping. I worship no one, not ever.

WindDancer
You don't have to worship in order to be religious. Some religious folks chose to be more philosphical than devoted when it comes to their religion. Which it can be good thing. Is no longer about faith is about finding other meanings in scripture.

Arahael
I haven't read any other religious texts, save for the Bible, but I think it's alot of bunk

Mr Parker
This thread probably wont stay open long because they have a rule about not discussing religion or politics here.I dont like it but its one of their rules so expect this thread to be closed soon.They closed a political thread of mine not too long ago.for the record,atheist.

eleveninches
I was brought up in a christian family, and believed in god for the first 14 years of my life, but then I stopped believing and became an athiest, although recently I have started to feel like more agnostic than athiest

Arahael
I'm not an atheist! Agnostic, get it right!

Arahael
Me too!

Storm
Theism: belief in (my) God.
Agnosticism: don't know if any gods exist.
Atheism: denial of (my) God.

Agnostic Theism: belief in a god without claiming to know for sure that the god exists.
Gnostic Theism: belief in a god while being certain that this god exists.
Agnostic Atheism: disbelief in gods without claiming to know for sure that none exist.
Gnostic Atheism: disbelief in gods while being certain that none (can or do) exist.

Creechuur
I'm not an overly religious person, and I'm certainly not a 'Christian'. I do believe theres something out there...I'll call it God for sake of argument. Thats not what I call it in real life, but just for this post.

I used to be a skeptic...an agnostic if you will. Society tends to try and pound its version of religion into people, which is why independent thinkers such as ourselves shun it and claim we need some kind of 'proof' before we will believe. It took me a long time to realize it, but you don't have to follow ANY of the religions that various mainstream societies preach. Its about believing in what you think is out there, not interpreting someone elses version of it from church or the bible or the synagogue or whatever. My faith 'borrows' from stuff as varied as Native American beliefs, Eastern and Greek mythology, Christianity and even Star Wars.

Agnostics, I'm telling you, youre going to be waiting awhile for proof. Faith is not rewarded with physical manifestations of belief...Heck, thats Rule One, and anyone over the age of 16 should know it.

Faith isn't given to you. You don't receive it for a 'job well done' and theres no real physical proof of it..except that feeling you have inside that something is out there whispering in your ear every once in a while. All those people in church, all the televangelists and jerks that come knocking on your door spreading The Truth...thats not religion, its blind, mindless devotion. Theres definitely a difference.

Creechuur
In the end, religion is a manmade concept. It was created to explain the stars and volcanoes and keep people safe at night when it was cold and dark and beasts were howling in the distant hills.

I have no misconceptions that my faith is going to grant me an eternally happy afterlife. In that I'm not so much an agnostic as I just don't know and don't see the need for guessing. Whatever happens will happen. Faith, to me, is just a feeling that things will be alright, even when they don't seem like they will.

Fëanor
i'm neither agnostic nor an atheist...but i do have a 'faith' in God...religion for me is time consuming and unwarranted..."go to church you'll go to heaven"...where in the bible does that say? every individual has his/her own way of interpreting what reality is or isn't...and neither way is right or wrong, it is your own opinion and belief....not mine nor his but yours...the reason for my 'faith' is that science and philosophical ideology cannot always explain the complexities of our physical universe seen or unseen...it is enough for me to know this without going into the mind boggling reasoning of cause and effect of where it all began...life itself is difficult enough as it is...

if you doubt or wonder about your own existence and as to what happens afterwards...then that is the beginning of true knowledge...

Storm
*nods*
Religion is a human creation and as such can vary as widely as human imagination allows.

Fëanor
thumbup1^^

Arahael
I agree with Storm, Feanor, and Creechuur. I have my own outlook on life, and it seems completely illogical from anything else I've ever heard.

Creechuur
Religion is every bit as manmade as science. Its the precursor to science. Before we advanced far enough to explain things with gravity and mass and soundwaves and whatnot, we just said "it must be the Gods doing". Then 'Gods' became 'God'. Then 'God' became 'Darwin' and Adam went from being the son of God to the decendant of a monkey. As soon as DNA is 'unlocked' by scientists I forsee that science will be the new 'God'. Its been shaping up that way for decades now, it'll happen soon, maybe in our grandchildrens lifetime.

Really, whats the difference between science and religion??? What proof do you have that science is any more 'real' than religion? Sure, you can see a molecule, but its only a molecule because thats what we named it. God is only God because thats what we named it. Theyre just two ways of explaining the same thing. Being a 'scientist' to me means that you are a follower of the scientific religion. Instead of the 10 commandments, you have physical laws.

Arahael
There's proof that the elements of science are real. There is absolutely no proof that anything described in the Bible is real. I do, however, agree that religion could eventually manifest into science. I await this day with great anticipation.

Creechuur
Theres no proof that anything is real. All the theories and units of measurement and 'laws' that have been used to explain reality are manmade. Science is no more or less real than religion, you just get a detailed description of what scientists think is going on, where as with priests you get blind faith.

You have faith that gravity keeps you planted on the ground just as a Christian has faith that he will go to Heaven if he's good. Its all just different ways of describing our experience here. I don't think any one is right...in fact I think all religions and sciences have their truths, you just have to weed them out and put them together.

BackFire
Yeah, I don't believe in anything. So call that whatever you want.

big gay kirk
Theres a big difference between an Agnostic and an agnostic... with a capital A it implies the belief that man can never have true knowledge of God... with the small a it means a hope that something is there, without being sure what, or a doubting of the persons "birth-faith..." Its like the differnce between being Christian or being a christian... most fall into the latter camp... they might go to church, they give eggs at easter and prezzies at christmas, but ask what the bible says and....

And I'm a pagan by the way, of the Norse variety, as have been my family for hundreds of years...

Ushgarak
Sigh...

There is a staggering difference between science and religion. Somewhat tiresome to see that lazy comparison done again. They are exceedingly different concepts, as is clear from anything more than a cursory glance. Science is self-sceptical. It is deliberately fallible. It is designed to change as time goes by. It makes no universal claims. All its laws have to be demonstrable- it has nothing to do with faith or belief. Religion is the opposite, for good or bad.

A scientist does not need to have faith in gravity- s/he can demonstrate and PROVE its operation. And that is the only thing s/he is interested in doing- showing what can be shown, not trying to find a way to show something he has previously assumed. A Christian's faith in going to Heaven is just that- faith, and by design, cannot be shown or proven- that is the point; it wouldn't actually work very well if it could be. These two concepts are quite staggeringly different.

Just because science SOMETIMES shares the same metaphysical grounding as religion- an attempt to explain the world around us- does not make them even remotely similar things. Maybe a long time ago, but not now.

That is why hardcore scientists and hardcore religious followers cannot agree. They cannot understand the position of the other and there is no room for middle ground. We have seen it at these very forums time and time and time again.

silver_tears
I'm Catholic, and am a believer.
I go to church and go to a catholic high school, those things I can't say much about, but I choose to believe that there is a God, and later Heaven.

Lan©eWindu
I'm at that stage right now where I don't know what to believe. I used to think there was a god, then I swore up and down that there wasn't.

Now I'm not to sure.

Creechuur
Ah, sigh yourself. My opinion stands, no matter how uppity you word your post.

Read what I said again. It doesnt disprove what you say, it just shows you didn't get what I said.

Its all man made. Its all subjective. What proof do we have that science has it right, besides all those high falutin formulas and 'laws'? Mathematics and physics are all well and good, but what do they explain that hasn't been explained some other way in ages past...and that will probably be re-thought and re-explained in some other way some day in the future?

I'm not anti-science, quite the opposite. I just think its another case of gigantic human egos needing to explain, and thereby own, everything that exists.

Thats the great thing about opinion and faith, they are both only as strong as the will you have to believe in them.

finti
NO we have the knowledge that gravity keep us planted on the ground

Ushgarak
Actually, Creechur, I read what you said just fine. You just seem to be unaware what proof actually is, and how science works. Luckily, the folly of your position is pretty self-evident from what you wrote.

The Omega

Arahael
God doesn't exist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

shaber
Omega man, was the missing link between man and chimp ever found? I haven't come across a genuine record of it, though it is most likely due to the lack of variety in my experience roll eyes (sarcastic)

Arahael
I've always wondered, if we evolved from primates, then why do we still have them around?

shaber
Yeah, the evolution theory is pretty sketchy isn't it. There must be a different more complex explanation.

Arahael
Yeah I know that.

shaber
MO agnostic is perfectly plausible, but atheism assumes that the atheist knows everything.

WindDancer
Why don't we talk in a philosophical way. What do you define as existence?

eleveninches
God doesn't exist.

But then, maybe I don't exist either big grin

Arahael
No, just God.

eleveninches
But if god doesnt exist, then how can we be talking about him. He might not exist in reality, but he exists in peoples imagination, so he does exist at least a little bit.

WindDancer
^I like that! That's interesting! big grin

shaber
You are talking about solipsism

Fire
well to be correct we had the same ancester as primates some time ago. there is a difference and evolution is mostly conincidence. Maybe primates will develop into something human like but I doubt it

Arahael
The entire theory of evolution is scientifically and mathematically incorrect.

Fire
says who?

Fire
it's not because a theory is wrong (tho I doubt it) that that means god is the answer

Arahael
The theory is wrong and God is definitely not the answer!

Fire
again who says the theory is incorrect?

Arahael
It's my personal opinion. So there!

Fire
yea and that's almost worth a damn to the scientific community

WindDancer
We all have our opinions here! You chose something that you found to be reasonable that's fine! Don't diss other people's beliefs or ideas.

Fire
you can't claim something to be incorrect just cause you think it is

Gregory
I'm no scientist, but I might be able to handle the mathematics. What's the problem?

Arahael
I feel like sounding smart.

Fëanor
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant! sad

Arahael
Right.

Fëanor
Quo signo nata es? smile

Creechuur
What is 'proof'? Its a word we created to give us power over the universe. If you have proof then you can obviously explain the essense of something, right? But what do you base the explanation on?

How do you know your proof is correct? Because a group of scientists said so? What makes them absolutely right? Granted, they make a lot of sense and I really have no reason to question their findings, but what if theyre wrong? What if it really is Gods will that keeps us planted on the ground? And what if Gods will can be described with manmade ideas like mass and pressure combined with the rotation of the planet?

I'm not saying science has it all wrong, maybe theres just other ways to describe the world around us. People shouldnt get stuck on one discipline or belief, whether scientific or religious. Minds should be open to the possibility that factions other than their own have a piece of the puzzle.

Theories need to be corroborated by other scientists before being taken as proven, right? The only problem is that theres no way to prove all the foundations of our own knowledge. If we could meet a society from another galaxy that used the same methods we did and explained the universe in the same way, it would 'prove' something to me. Otherwise, its all stuff we've made up. Really good stuff from really intelligent minds, but made up nonetheless.

Gregory
That is why scientists normally don't talk about a theory being proven; just supported by the evidence. If new evidence comes along, a theory is changed accordingly.

Creechuur
As to why we evolved from monkeys, but theres still monkeys around, I'd say its like this:

Say you got a bunch of monkeys. After generations of breeding, 50% of those monkeys' descendants gain more useful opposable thumbs, so they can better interact with their surroundings. Later, 50% of those monkeys gain better eyesight so they can gather food and watch for predators. Later still, 50% begin walking upright. Pretty soon you got humans. Since half of the monkeys never evolved and kept breeding though, you also still have a lot of monkeys.

I guess there wasn't much wrong with monkeys in the first place, or they would have died out. What a sad world it would be then, because monkeys are funny, especially when they wear human clothes and walk little dogs and stuff.

Fëanor
laughing ...meanin' no disrepect to monkeys...

Fire
think it's less than 50% creechuur

Creechuur
I just picked a number at random...

silver_tears
I would say faith, because unless you yourself experimented and discovered gravity, aren't you just believeing it's there?? huh

big gay kirk
Gravity is just as likely to stop us staying on the ground... Gravity doesn't suck us down, we fall into it... once a larger gravity well opens up, we fall into that instead...

Ushgarak
Science's job is to explain the world as it IS, and so involves discovering that. It is not trying to meet any pre-set agenda. There is no point saying that there is another way other than science to explain things. WHATEVER way there is, it is the PURPOSE of science to find it. This is a common misconception many people have. Science has NO preset agenda other than what it discovers.

Your post again demonstrates how ignorant you are of what science is. NOT a collection of absolute certainties, but the continuing process of deciphering how things work, for practical gain or otherwise, via a process of reasoned and demonstrable research. So it does not matter what else there is- science will ultimately stive to find these answers. If anything about religion could be proven, it would be part of science. But it cannot. The two cannot be equated.

And to say it is all made up, when they can provide demonstable evidence, is simply ridiculous. What if they are wrong? Well, try and prove they are wrong first, seeing all the evidence they have about being right. But if they are wrong, then if scientific principle continues to be followed, then they will correct and improve all their theories over time. Like I said, science is self-sceptical. 'What if they are wrong' is a pointless question, and trying to imply this puts it on the same grounding as religiion is as completely ridiculous as it ever was. As Gregory says, these things are often in motion- but some things are as set and certain as they are ever going to be.

Earlier you ask what the difference is between how science explains things and how religion does? Well. the difference is that what science explains it can show a WHY, that shows them to be right more than any faith ever can. And from those whys they have developed technologies that found our modern civilisation. Proof of science's worth is surrounding you every second of every day- our whole world built on scientific process and the way it works.

If you call things that can be shown, demonstated, supported and proven 'made-up', and equate them with the pure faith mechanic of a religion, then you are simply of an irrational mindset that makes trying to understand sense very difficult indeed.

Rogue Jedi
this is a WAY touchy subject.

Fëanor
yes...this has become more than whether you're agnostic or an atheist to whether science is a fallacy made up by thinking humans...in order to explain the unexplainable...whoah!!! i for once am at a loss for words...

but for Ushgarak...your chipping away at a stone wall with a plastic spoon with that one...

WindDancer
^ I certainly agree.

Rogue Jedi
agreed. to each their own.

Creechuur
Its the other way around. Science is built upon our trying to understand the world. C'mon Ush, youre smarter than this. As someone already mentioned, the world was here long before we could explain it. We've invented a lot of stuff but we haven't changed the basics.



Its a perfectly debatable question, as we have proven.

This has gone completely off-topic, hasn't it? embarrasment

<<Solo>>
I'm an Atheist easily.

The Omega

Ushgarak
Sorry, was that comment at me, or just a development from what I was saying?

Corlindel
I am not waiting for nothing. I Prefer to go out searching for it

Sometimes, my faith in myself is rewarded with physical manifestations of my belief in it. Thats enough. Dont generalise "faith".

What Rule?

Why sixteen?

shaber
The theory of evolution holds water with no evidence to substantiate it - but not the divine theory Happy Dance

Collidor
I dont believe that there is a god or gods it just doesnt seem right

eleveninches
Do you think that there IS no god, or that there SHOULD be no god.???

jE¬KiLL¬HYDe
I'm atheist... and whoever posted the big A/little a thing thoroughly confused me... I didn't know it had to be capitalized or lowercased. *confused* Anyway... I used to think I was just agnostic, but then, it's not that I don't believe in God, it's that I don't think there can BE a God (for reasons that I don't really feel like explaining at the moment).

Science is not a belief, not by any stretch of the imagination. Science is (like Ush said) demonstrable theory. You don't believe in science, you either accept the theories or you don't. And if you don't accept it, it's not like you'll be punished for eternity, like most religions will have you believe if you don't worship their particular God.

The Omega

Phoenix
My friend is an agnostic, and she says it is a hard place to be. An athiest truly believes that is not and cannot be a God. A Christian/Buddhist/Hindu/etc truly believes that there is an guiding Power, whether external or internal. However, an agnostic is not sure. My mate really envies my faith, and that of the athiests. You may say that an athiest has no faith, but they do, they have faith that no God exists.

It is the uncertainty that upsets my friend, and she says she'd really like to be like me, a Christian, who knows that there is a God, and beleives it with all her heart, but she just can't.

Ushgarak
Uh-oh, Phoe... I think you may upset Omega with 'atheism is a faith'. That page she links to refutes that view utterly.

I''ll save her the trouble and quote from it.

"But surely belief in atheism (or science) is still just an act of faith, like religion is?"

Firstly, it's not entirely clear that sceptical atheism is something one actually believes in.

Secondly, it is necessary to adopt a number of core beliefs or assumptions to make some sort of sense out of the sensory data we experience. Most atheists try to adopt as few core beliefs as possible; and even those are subject to questioning if experience throws them into doubt.

Science has a number of core assumptions. For example, it is generally assumed that the laws of physics are the same for all observers (or at least, all observers in inertial frames). These are the sort of core assumptions atheists make. If such basic ideas are called "acts of faith", then almost everything we know must be said to be based on acts of faith, and the term loses its meaning.

Faith is more often used to refer to complete, certain belief in something. According to such a definition, atheism and science are certainly not acts of faith. Of course, individual atheists or scientists can be as dogmatic as religious followers when claiming that something is "certain". This is not a general tendency, however; there are many atheists who would be reluctant to state with certainty that the universe exists.

Faith is also used to refer to belief without supporting evidence or proof. Sceptical atheism certainly doesn't fit that definition, as sceptical atheism has no beliefs. Strong atheism is closer, but still doesn't really match, as even the most dogmatic atheist will tend to refer to experimental data (or the lack of it) when asserting that God does not exist.

-

The logic is good. Atheism is not a faith, Phoe. That is a mis-definition of faith. At best it is also a philosophical position, but its root is basically in the conscious rejection of choosing a presented belief system!

Meanwhile, agnosticism shouldn't have to be the angst-ridden thing your friend seems to have made out of it.

Phoenix
But to state that God does not exist, you must have faith in that statment, no? Or there would be no point to your arguement.



((by your, I do not mean you specifiacally, I mean a generalised your, sort of meaning all athiests... blink does that make sense...? stick out tongue))

Ushgarak
As what I posted just says, if you start assigning 'faith' to a statement like that, you have to assign it to just about anything you state ever, as which point the term becomes meaningless.

But yeah, I'm no atheist myself. But there is a very clear logical difference between atheism and faith-based systems. Atheism really doesn't define anything specific; more a lack or, as I say, rejection of something else.

Phoenix
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=faith

The very first meaning of the word:

Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

Phoenix
Not to be a geek or anything... shifty hah, offtopic I know, but my nickname at school is 'bookie', isn't that great! big grin and my friend had a competition, trying to find words in the dictionary I didn't know, and they couldn't!

*hides from stares*

embarrasment I'm a geek, but at least I admit it! big grin

Ushgarak
Faith means something rather more conceptual when you apply it to a religion, Phoe. Your faith in God is rather the central point in Christianity. Regarldess of the evidence available, you have faith God exists, and hence you know it, yes?

Now, take tables. You can see tables exist. Now, literally speaking, you could apply that dictionary definition to say that you have faith in tables.

But you really wouldn't see the sense in putting it that way, would you? When did it ever occur to you to have faith that tables exist?

Atheism is not an application of faith in the same way religion is.

Phoenix
But to have faith is also to know. I know tables exist, just as surely as I know God exists. And Omega ((sorry to use as an example, hun wink)) knows that God does not exist just as surely as I know that He does.


((I like having debates! They're so much better than arguments big grin))














































I have faith in the table.... wink

Ushgarak
I'm willing to bet you don't. In fact, I am willing to bet you never NEEDED faith in the table. Why go to the bother of having to simply believe in something when is existence is provable?

You know tables exist because the evidence is in front of you. But you only know God exists because your faith tells you so. That is why atheists agree with the existence, like you, of the table, but not God. They see the evidence. They don't have the faith.

Faith, when given an applicaiton a belief system, does not fit atheism. There is not single thing in atheism that is taken 'on faith'. Religion, on the other hand, is virutally built on the concept.

lil bitchiness
Hmm..im not very religious, but i do have my spiritual side. Im a strong believer in reincarnation.

The Omega
Phoenix&gt; You don't know that God exists. You believe he/she/it does. There is a big diference. Sow me that God exists - then we can continue from there.
Or rather - you can't show that God exists. I not only disbelieve this entity, I do not think they can exist.
Of course you know tables exist. You an see them and touch them. You can neither see nor touch God.

Arahael
Religion is a form of brainwashing!

lil bitchiness
I think Greek philosophers Epicureans have said it best. Although i dont fully agree with EVERY aspect of Epicurian philosophy, i do agree with one major...and it is:

The greatest purpose in life is contentment.
The greatest obsticle to contentment is fear.
The greatest fear is the fear of the gods
Therefore
The greatest evil is religion


Got to love Greeks big grin

Arahael
I agree with that statement completely. thumb up

shaber
NB Phoe, the traditional sense of being monotheistic meant that you HAD to believe that there could ONLY be the one God. A pagan could add Christ onto their pantheon and still be pagan... I would say that myths are not necessarily mutually exclusive so that would probably be a pagan view.

Arahael
I'm a heathen! big grin

shaber
Didn't you say you were agnostic? confused

Phoenix
I can tell you I have no doubt in the existence of God. To have no doubt is to know. A difference to you, but not to me. I do not just beleive I know, just as I know that He loves me, and will always be there for me when I need Him.

You do not know this, or believe it. Our opinions differ, but that does not invalidate either of them.

Phoenix
The greatest evil is to fear your God. I do not fear my God, I love Him, and love all His children. To fear God is to fear His children, which is the greatest evil. Organised religion is awful, I agree. As soon as you say that there is only one way of doing things, then you will punish those who do not follow that way, wehich is evil.


Mercedes Lackey once said "There is no one true Way."

I stand by that. My Way is not your Way, nor shall it ever be. I respect your Way, although I do not beleive it. ((This is not a specific you, just a general you wink))

Phoenix
But the table is not provable. The first class I ever had in philosophy, the teacher put a table in front of us and said "What is this?" when we said it was a table, he said "Prove it." we couldn't. Yes, we belive that it is a table, our senses tell us that it is a table, but senses can be fooled or confused.

Some people have a sense of God. Some do not.

Creechuur
Organized "religion is a form of brainwashing!"

Spirituality shouldn't feel like its mind control. If thats how some of you you feel I see why you have none, or a negative view of it. I personally dont subscribe to any of the organized religions, why do I need someone to tell me what should already be inside me? Religious leaders are supposed to help bring that wisdom out of you, not dictate what that wisdom is composed of.

Phoenix
I don't go to church. I go to Worship, which is a very different thing. We are a Christian Fellowship, and the Fellowship is as important as the Worship. They are all wonderful there. I have very little time to worship with them, because of A levels, so I am currently worshipping at home, but whenever I do have the time to go they treat me as if I had never been away! Everyone makes an effort to remember names, and no one is rude or cruel or callous.

I like churches, because I think they are beautiful, but i dislike church congregations. I find it very difficult to become accepted, to become integrated into the different groups. I never had that problem with the Fellowship, they welcomed me with open arms and open hearts.

Ushgarak
That is philosophical scepticism and, as handled in the recent thread opened about it, that is the most dull and pointless view to take about anything at all (and I am afraid it always loses respect from me when invoked); Descartes used it as a basis of self-examination, not as a means of viewing the world. You have SOLID EVIDENCE the table exists, evidence that forms part of a system via which this modern civilisation exists. You have no such evidence about God- instead you have faith. Your are, frankly, taking the mick if you try and equate the evidence behind the two.

Aside from anything else... if you didn't have any evidence for the table- could not see it, touch it, put things on it, see the process via which it was made- you would not believe it existed. You don't have evidence for God, but you do believe he exists, as you have that faith.

If you are going to invoke Philosophical scepticism in any argument, we may as well stop right now because anything we say at all at any point becomes worthless because you will invoke the possibility of doubt. It is an entirely pointless line to take as it denies just about everything. Fact is, you do not reject science in this world; I know you don't. You accept many many rules about existence- if you do not eat, you will die; if you stab someone, it will hurt them; you need money to survive in the world, and so on. By these logical rules that you accept, and most certainly do not apply scepticism to, you accept the table exists via a reasoned process of looking at available evidence. The mechanism by which you accept God exists is entirely different. There is no scientific evidence for it.

Belieivng in something because of evidence and believing in something because of faith, Phoe. No matter how much sceptiicsm you want to try and apply, if you accept things exist on these criteria- which you evidently do- then it has to be logically conceeded that you are accepting their existence for different reasons.

Fire
Ush you really dislike philosophical scepticism don't you

proving god is impossible noone should try, cause from the moment it has been proven it is no longer faith but it becomes science

Ushgarak
The problem is that Phoe is using the term 'faith' in a rather misleading definition via which you have faith in something just if you think it exists, so she would call accepting something exists because of science is faith.

As I am trying to explain, faith when used as connected to a belief system means belief in the absence of evidence, as you are clearly using the term there, Fire. Or maybe more accurately- belief irrelevant to evidence one way or another.

Which is why atheism is not a faith. It is a decision to reject faith.

The Omega
Phoenix&gt; That you tell me, that you have no doubt that God exist is no proof whatsoever. You might as well tell me that flying saucers are real. I still require proof before I accept either statement.
And you still only BELIEVE. Once upon a time people on this planet thought it was flat. They "knew" that it was flat - lacking better observations and knowledge no doubt. But the Earth was still round.
So you do not KNOW that God exist. Knowledge requires proof. You have none. You have simply decided to believe in the existence of the supernatural - that is your choice but it is not knowledge.

Philosophical scepticism IS dull, I must agre with Ush.

Fire&gt; No, if you prove the existence of God you prove that religion is right. What annoyes me in these religion/science debates is the comparison between the two.

Arahael
The Bible's bull!

Fire
you can't prove god exists, you can try as much as you want to and you will still not get it. and I wouldn't call it faith anymore if it was proven, would take the basic element out of it IMO

Arahael
I agree!

Gregory
Do you? Maybe God exists, but he hates being bothered so he sends everyone who worships him to Hell.

lil bitchiness
This is so pointless because, nobody can prove God's existance and no one can disprove it...in reality. Just because we cant touch or smell or see something it doesnt mean its not there, equaly because we cant touch it, smell it, or see it we equaly have no evidence it is there.

Depends what you mean by God. I think thats the term that needs claifying. Many people have different concepts of what/who God is messed
WE can argue in many different ways about this, because nobody gave clear deffinition as to what to them god IS?
An old man, with white beard sat in his big char? A young absolutely gorgeous man in pink fluffy thong(thats how i immagine god), a spirit, a feeling, a woman, a lots of women, a lot of men, a men and women, beast....

Arahael
You know what? Everybody thinks that they know what God looks like, but I would laugh my ass off is God turned out to be like a black woman. big grin

Ushgarak
You have to prove things positive, Lil, not negative. Basic rule. It is up to someone to prove God exists before anyone has to make any move whatsoever to prove otherwise.

As those with faith are not interested in proof- because they have faith- I don't really see what your point there is.

Defining God would take us into an entirely different topic, though.

Fire
that is how everything in the world is done (except proving you are innocent)

Ushgarak
Errr... you don't have to prove innocence unless someone can give evidence you are guilty. In theory.

Fire
that's what I ment big grin

Tho with Bush his patriot act you'd better be able to prove your innocence

Ushgarak
So... that's the same as everything else, then?

Fire
yes except that you normaly never have to do it

Phoenix
oooh! handbags at dawn! stick out tongue






























*hugs* don't be offended! big grin

Phoenix
It's not misleading, it's a dictionary definition.

Gregory
When the dictionary definition contradicts the way people actually use the word, go with the way people use the word. Anyway:

faith: "unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence"--New World Dictionary of the American Lanbguage, Second Colelge Edition

Phoenix
Knowledge is not necessarily poven. To take the example of the Middle-Eastern wars, the Palestinians (sp?) know they are right. The Israeli's know they are right. Ask them to prove it.

Phoenix
Please try to post a decent argument, rather than just insulting my faith.

Ushgarak
But they both say they have proof, Phoe. Answer is simple- one, or both, of them are wrong.

Ushgarak
(hugs Phoe back)

Not offended! But I'll need some help buying a handbag.

Phoenix
Not everything is simple, especially not in politics. Perhaps there is no black and white - only many shades of grey.

Ushgarak
The important point is this use of the word 'Faith'. The word faith as applied to religions does not apply to atheism. It does not matter what other literal meanings it can also have- so it is misleading to try and muddle that.

Phoenix
I have a shoulder bag you could borrow... It's lilac, with a kitty kat piccie on! big grin

Ushgarak
Err, then they are both wrong, seeing as you are the one invoking that they 'know they are right'- that leaves no room for shades of grey.

My logic stands.

Ushgarak
Oooh, cool..

Phoenix
But logic has no place with people, who are an illogical species.


















Now the Vulcans, that'd be a different story... big grin

Phoenix
so enthusiastic! big grin

Ushgarak
I cannot help thinking you are somehwat branching off into something else there, m'dear!

Anyway, I'm not your prime 'enemy' here, as you know; Omega will fill that role perfectly. I just like things well-defined.

Ushgarak
Well, how am I supposed to be able to make a quality control statement on handbags?

(hides)

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