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"Do you believe in fate, Neo?"
"No."
"Why not?"
"Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life."

What do you think of fate? Are we really in control of our own lives, or are we all part of some greater plan?

I'm not entirely sure myself. I don't like the idea that my future is planned out, but on the other hand, I sometimes feel like it is. When horrible things happen to people, they obviously didn't choose to have them happen. Is there a reason for these things to happen? Or is it just coincidence?

I don't believe in fate, I totally believe you are in control of your future, I mean that is where taking decisions come decisions, for example either you choose to attend a certain school, fate doesnt decide that. and yes people dont choos bad things to happen to them, but if bad things didnt happen how in the world would you ever savor the good things, i dont think it's fate, it's life.

Fate is an interesting concept when you think about it. Especially when it's believed by those same people who believe in heaven and hell.

If you have no control over your own actions then how can god blame you and send you to hell for killing someone when you are simply living out your "fate" that he created for you. Never really made sense to me.

I don't believe in fate at all. I believe life is what you make it. Thats why I really hate it when people say "Maybe it was meant to be" when something goes bad because I don't view things that way.

Fate sucksm, it's an excuse for ppl not to do anything in life.

well.not quite, but i don't believe in fate either.
You don't choose what horrible things to happen to you, revam. and when they do....you can't really go "oh..gee..this had to happen...it's fate" They just happen.

The idea of fate contradicts the idea of God in religious sense. You cant have both. You either believe in God or you either believe in fate.

I'm with Neo on this one. However I can't say there is NOTHING controlling me, which is beyond my control. That doesn't mean it's some divine being or beings with a set plan for me - that has always sounded like people in desperate need of a meaning with their lives.
What I mean is, that I can't know everything which influences me. Or my choices. I can never see all my choices, either because of upbringing, experience, stubbornness, stupidity, emotions etc.
So none of us can be said to be in complete control of our lives. But I do not think there is a set meaning with life, nor a destiny, nor fate.

'Cannot' in what sense? Many religious philosophies believe in both.

Alright, let me rephrase it. In such religions as Christianity, Islam, Judeism..etc..that believe in God and Heaven and Hell, the idea of fate contradicts with the idea of God, Heaven and Hell.

John Calvin, a 16th century theologan believed in predestination ie that there are the elect and the reprobate and noone can do anything to chage their category - some are fated to go to Heaven and others are fated to go to Hell.

Well put. That's what I think as well, only you're better with words than I am...

That Christianity thing that Backfire and lil brought up is interesting, I never thought about that. However, I wouldn't say you can't believe in both God and fate--just that if you believe in both, your image of God has to be considerably different from the Christian one.

There is a very well known branch of Christian theology called Calvinism/Predestination that believes firmly in the existence of both God and Fate.

I didnt say its impossible, i said its contradictory.


People can believe what they like really, there is, afterall a 'Flat Earth society'

Not all that contradictory if the God in question is omnipotent He would have already had to decide who he is going to eternally torment.

Flat Earth society eh... I might join that if there are any benefits.

So, if thats true, what is the point of ''being sent to earth'' in the first place? Why not just send you straight to Hell.


Im making a thread about Flat Earth Society in GDF.

It would be more satisfying to give them some sort of comparison to make Hell all the more agonising as they would have had a higher state of being to compare it to.

So would you get free snacks at the meetings? I would join just for that

Ah, you're wrong Shaber, because being on earth is a suffering. our life in itself is suffering, Buddha was totally right.

If God wanted to make it more agonising for those damned to hell, he would send them to heaven, the absolute extreame, not to earth.

Well I'm speaking in Hell-Fire sermon mode. If God is intending to torment someone forever then he probably wouldn't allow them a taste of Heaven... however, Marlowe (a playwright) did have one of his rebel angels say that the worst torment of being in Hell was the deprivation of Heaven which certainly makes sense.

Ah no, allowing them to see Heaven and then giving them an eternal torchure is what would make tourchure worse. Them knowng what heaven is and never being able to acheave it...

Then the pain and torment is bigger. If they never knew Heaven at any point, then they wouldnt know any better than sufering, so the torment will not have the sam effect, will it? How can you miss and greave for something you never knew or expreianced.

It's contradictory because according to the bible, if we do good all our lives, we will go to heaven. But if fate comes into play, and some divine being has already planned for you to go to hell, the two contradict each other...

Indeed, they'd be 'tormented by ten thousand Hells' simply by being deprived of that - regardless of the immediate torments of Hell.

can't see what you're on about. can't you consider that fate is the string of things that god has planned for everyone during their life span?

DR has explained for you.


I dont know how more plainly to explain it to you. The idea of Fate and God contradict each other. If unsure then re-read all my post and DR's post as well.

As I was trying to say earlier - predestination as in Calvin's theodicy is not contradictory, just a very raw deal indeed for the 'reprobate!'

And as I said earlier, there is such a thing as a Flat Earth society.

Well looking at it from Calvin's point of view however undesirable it may seem - usually bad people were inclined that way by outside influences - a sadistic psychopath is likely to have been routinely tortured with red hot pokers. So that is not there fault. If God decided to make certain people suffer eternally the best way would be to MAKE them bad!

I'd just like to ask Milla, do you follow Buddhism? And do you really believe that life is nothing but an onus? A weight to be carried till the day you keel over, and go onto "a better place"? Woah, I had no idea.....

And no, I do not believe in fate. I control my own destiny.

"Half of everything is luck, James..."
-"And the other half?"
"Fate/faith..."

(from Goldeneye)

Do fate and faith connect? I was just wondering if one word is derived from the other.......

Kerry - out of the all philosophies and religions i have read about and encountared in my life, I believe Buddhism is, in my view the best.

Im just sorry that some people still view Buddhism as a religion, which in fact it is NOT, its a philosophy of life.

There isnt such a thing as ''better place'' I believe you just as buddhism says ''become one with the universe''

Just wondering chica, I had no idea you were at all religious (sorry, I know that's not the right word but I couldn't think of another one).

I guess, as an Atheist, I'm religious. Atheism is a religion in itself, or so I've been told. It's the belief in non belief.

*sigh*

What a load of crap.

Yeah, I've heard that too about atheism Ineresting.

IMO, people just want to find a debate in anything.

People who think atheism is a religion or belief are simpy ignorant, and maybe fearful, of atheism.

It cannot be a religion in itself, as it is the belief that there is no God, and ties in nicely with Humanism. The belief in the control of one's own destiny. Well, IMO anyway

Well...there is one way to find out, someone should sit in front of an upcoming train and then tell us about it

I would do so, but its against my religion to sit in front of trains and search for the afterlife answers

Of course it's not a religion. That's just silly.

It can't be against your religion, you're not religious.

You're Way-of-life-ious

Exactly.

Its against my Way-of-life-iousness to sit in front of upcoming trains Someone whos Aethiest could maybe help us out

I believe that you control your life... but everything inside you has the will of Fate in it. You could have the fate to win the lottery. You use your unlucky numbers... you don't win. But then the next month you do.

*sigh*

Ok, I'll do it, but when I die I want a really cool funeral and loads of people to turn up and get seriously drunk on my behalf

Well the dictates of others could be a written fate (as external influences)http://bb.bbboy.net/moods/pissed.gif

Fate... Final Destination, anyone?

Never thought I'd be so intimidated by any natural process

Yeah, Final Destination is a movie, hardly reflets relaity.

I'm partially Buddhist

What can I say DR, great minds think alike

I couldn't say it any better myself. I won't let anything control me, only myself. I want to be in control of my life. No else can tell me what to do.

Heeeey, I have a great mind and I'm an Atheist.......

rolleyes1 Right, anyway...moving onto the idea of fate...

Darth> Nah, you're just drunk. Been in the evolution-thread again?

Interesting. If God is omnipotent he does indeed already know who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven before they're born. Essentially this God allows for people to be condemned to eternal torment before they were born.

Aent Elrond> But how do you know that you are yourself totally in control of your life? You cannot control other people, we feel what we feel regardless, we can only be taught to control them. You can't forsee the future, now know all your choices.

Syren> Atheism is not a religion, because atheism is without faith and religious rules. ou can cHOOSE to believe in yourself or what have you, or fate, but that s outside the realm of atheism.

I didn' t ask to be born nor did I eventuallly choose my parents, my sex and the country where I was born.

Fate or coincidence...

To be lonely one December afternoon, that one goes searching on the internet to find a messageboard, comes across KMC, starts talking to a girl 4 days later, and now 6 months to the date of joining, is engaged to that girl, and living with that girl...

Fate or coincidence ???

Hmm... but why call it fate? How about chance. There were hundred million other sperm there, you were the fastest. If it wasnt you, there would have been someone else.

Then what on Earth is the point in existence at all? So we're all playing pieces on a board? Not even that really, there's no game being played if all of our fates are so perfectly planned. IMHO it's ridiculous, regardless of whether fate exists, the fact that we exist only as preplanned organisms just does not lay well with me.



I don't think that when one states they wish to be in 'control' of their own destiny they mean they can forsee the future. I think they are simply saying they'd rather have the control, the choice and the decision making, than some other being.



Yep, thanks for clearing that up. As I already said, I'm an Atheist. Therefore I credit myself with knowing full well what that entails......

Some problems with definitions here...

First of all, being Omnipotent has nothing to do with it. The word you want is Omniscient.

Secondly, just because you know everything, doesn't mean you know what cannot be known. Omnisicnet only complestes a potential list. So therefore, the idea that God knows all that will happen to these people is only a belief in certain religous circles, though some of them major ones. it is not an idea endemic to God.

oh..yes...i hadn't read that post.
but if so..then what about...'god has mysterious ways' type lines?

Sarah Connor said it straight in terminator...

I believe in fate to an extent. I think it was fate that I found KMC and joined. I think that it was my own doing to send A.D. and pm and open that door. Fate laid out the floor plans but it was up to me wether or not I read them.

Im not denying that, if you believe in god, then there is always a possibility.

but if life was predestined, noone really would be telling us directly what to do. we'd just do it. it sucks if you start thinking about it, but if you don't? then, for all we'd know, we'd just be following our own ideas, not the plan of someone else.

Now I have always believed in the concepts of heaven and hell, free will etc..........but I also very much do also believe that at the time of your birth God knows when and how you will die. I don't know how he does but I do think that he does. I mean even if you end up committing suicide, I feel that God knew that goin in.

fate cannot control your destiny...destiny is an illusion

your future is undecided...predictions thereof are based on useless informations of your past...

to believe otherwise is a fools folly...

Heaven and Hell only exists in the minds of those whose life has no meaning...and must use those concepts to explain away their existence

free will is the road to absolute slavery

I believe in fate to a certain degree.
I think it determines where we end up ultimately in life, but it's up to us to get there, and the decisions along the way change how long and how hard it is to get there, we're in control, but not fully.

how's that?

what would YOU do if you did not have free will...hence IT becomes your master

free will is the road to slavery because of how it'd be if we didn't have it?

*sighs*

that's something utterly different than what i had in mine...but yes i agree to your view...

But free will is what you decide to do... So I guess I get what you're saying, but you can't really say it's "slavery" because slavery is when something external is telling you to do something. If you are telling yourself to do something, I wouldn't call it slavery.

that wasn't my view but a (agreed, badly posed) question to find out wether that was what you meant. apparently it wasn't.

yes. I guess slavery is when someone/something has the power to make you do things which might even be against your own will to their own advantage.

maybe there is fate in a some way. maybe there are some things that are suppose to happen because of the path you've chosen.
an there is a fate that is certain in everyones life; that's death

I've been thinking about that whole free will thing, and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Everything that goes on in your mind starts outside it; nothing in there is self-motivated. When you decide to move your arm, it's because of something outside your mind that your mind wants done because of something that happened outside it. When you're hungry, it's because your body needs energy. If that makes any sense at all.

I believe in both fate and God and I'm Catholic. First off, most people are saying that God condems and he tortures and well I've always been taught differently and I'm happier for it, I was always taught that God is all good, he never punishes you or sends you to hell, these things you do to yourself, God rewards but never punishes, those are just consequences for your actions, also, even in hell God to repent, as long as you repent heaven is for you. Also FATE, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, God told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge b/c he knew everything that man would do and he wanted to prevent it at the root but unfortunately, man ate. God knew the evil man was going to create and he tried to stop us, keep us protected however we didn't listen, it was fate that man would exist on this planet. Basically when you talk of all the bad things in the world, these came out of sins, man created these problms and man has to deal with the consequences. And about fate, I think the basic outcome of our lives are partially predestined, it depends on our own decisions, who we marry, our children, whether we will do good or bad, the basic life achievments are predestined, however it is up to us when we encounter them and whether we go to heaven or hell, due to the decisions we make we alter in a way fate, either suspend it or cause it to accelerate, ex: the man u will marry is predetermined as ar the kids u have but whether u marry @ 25 or @ 35 is up to the decisions you have made.

I believe there are set patterns of fate, and through free choice we determine which fate we live. So i believe that there is fate, but we are always in control of it, all we have to do is stay focused, and be aware of it. This however is easier said than done, staying focused is what stops many modern day philosophers and motivators from ever being. Just be aware of your life and instead of being tossed around by fate, you can use that for your own aspirations

i believe that there is a reason behind everything, and that we have paths which we are supposed to follow throughout our lives.

although at times its hard to see the reasons behinds stuff, i do believe that it was all supposed to happen.

i have had some really interesting conversations with people over this, so i thought id post this and see what some of you think and believe................

im looking forward to a big debate

i want to belive that everything has a reason, but sometimes it is very hard,
when you think about all the cruelty, wars and terrorism. i really fail to see the higher point in what has happen in the Bieslan as example

Why should everything happen for a reason?

I just farted. Now what's the deep philosophical reason for that happening?

lol,

But saying that everything happens for a reason implyes that we have no control over what we do, and that we have basicly no free will. This also implyes that there is some sort of superior being somewhere pulling all the strings. And I disagree with that.

WTF

True atheists believe that everything that happens on and off this world happens by chance.

Some scientists have even tried to measure the mathematical chances of what is called the chaos-theory....unsuccessfully so far.

I say that if there is a supreme entity up there in the sky that is making it all happen to his/her/it's plan then his/her/it's ways of thinking are far above my poor brain.

This supreme entity must be the most twisted and cruel superbeing that has ever been created.......AND......created by whom, I would also like to ask ?

NA.....What happens to us is our own making and changes from microsecond to microsecond by pure chance.

I've never believed in the whole "fate" thing, I hate the idea that I'm not at all in control of my own life.

Yeah...you are right Darth.....

I will add that bit to my "chance" theory above and make it that everything that happens to us that is not by chance is by our own direction.

At least I hope so !

I believe some stuff is down to fate - i think fate gives us opportunities but its up to us to take them. if that makes sense

Then...it isn't fate.

If every thing happens for a reason and we cannot grasp this reason then that doesn't mean that there is no reason.

I have faith in my destiny, I don't know what it is yet (or do I?) but there is some reason pulling me there (and som magic).

so are you saying that whatever you do or not do, if you're destined for something, it will happen?
so if a person sits around all day and do nothing all his life, then is it because of he is destined to achieve nothing, therefor he does nothing to achieve anything? or is it because he does nothing to achieve anything, therefor he achieves nothing?

I don't believe it is so. Like The Omega said, why should everything happen for a reason? We are all in control of our own actions and responsible for their consequences. Thus we are also in control of our destiny.

"am I living in a box? am I living in a cardboard box? am I living in a box" - Living In A Box 1987

There are reasons why things happen.
Now does that mean everything happens for a reason?

you just answered your own question with your first sentence

Perhaps we should separate "for a reason" and "meaning". Things do happen for a reason, as when I drop my cup and it crashes to the floor, it does so because of gravity. There is just no deeper MEANING behind it.
If I go to kick the local Hells Angels biker in the face, I can safely say, that when I find myself at the hospital the next morning, there was a reason for it. But again... No deeper meaning.

We follow no pre-ordained paths. If we did, there would be no free will, and the obvious qquestion would be: What (or who) set those paths out?

Heh, good idea. I was saying that I don't believe all things in the universe happen for some divine/unknown/greater purpose.

The idea of fate is intriguing, but improbable. We make our own fate.

Ultimately I think everything happens for a reason, but not because a Deity wishes it to be, or because of fate. We are slaves to cause and effect. Every action has a reaction, thus there is a reason for everything, but it is natural, not a conscious reason, just the laws of cause and effect.

I don't think you are supposed to do something and you can't decide, though sometimes i feel like that. i dont want to believe my life is already lived and i can't do anything to change teh course of my future.
But you are supposed to be something or someone by other people and you are and your course is supposed by the circumstances of your life, the family you are born into, the people you meet... but you can change yourself with your own will. Well I think so. And i dont mean faking your image, you can change your opinion, of course, and you can xhange the circumstances of your life. you just have to want it really hard.
I don't knwo the sentence from Star Wars Episode 1 in english, but it means that the circumstances you are born into dont gotta be the ones you die in. That sentence just came to me...

If everything were happening for a reason it would be impossible to comprehend the mechanics of it.

However heinsite is 20/20 and I believe its then sometimes you can catch a glimpse of the entricate workings of fate.

But hey thats just me, but I have seriously caught some of the weird order of my own life.

People aren't fully in control of their destiny when they're children.
After that, the choices are yours.....

If you make a poor choice and it has unfortunate consequences, that's not fate. The same as if you make an excellent decision and the results are great.

What would be the point in living if you knew you were merely a puppet?

Everyone has choices in life. Although I do believe in fate, there are many paths you can take to get to whichever final destination you may have. It may not be a set destination, because your choices can change where you end up.
Everything happens for a reason is something I half believe in.
In the way of action/reaction I think its entirely correct. Every choice you make has a consequence, good or bad. However, hoisting all your good and bad decisions on fate alone is like passing the blame and responsibility for everything you do.

Instead of saying everything happens for a reason, try "when one door shuts, another opens."
That is a quote I completely believe in. If you take responsibility for your choices, accept them, and learn from them, things work out for you in the end.

I agree. Blaming something on fate is an excuse for making bad decisions....

I don't believe in fate/destiny/the whole determinist point of view. Because, for one, that suggests that there's some higher power out there using us as puppets, and I don't believe that there is any sort of higher power. I don't like the idea of not being able to have any choice in my actions and my life.

(edit - spelling)

so you mean there aint an higher being holding the strings of the pope?
How else is that old geezer gonna move his limbs?

My brother's theory is that he's a robot.

man at least I aint gonna purchase any goods from the company that made him then

The bishops and cardinals need to hook him up to strings and make him move around like a marionette...

Whee, look at the religious guy dance!

what? sinner blasphemer, stone him stone him

I'm a girl, Finti

And YOU suggested him being a puppet, anyway

But I just started chewing a piece of gum. Did that happen for a reason? Yeah, I wanted a piece of gum.

Dont read too much into things.

it was aimed at the dancing religious guy Silver

Oh okay

I wasn't talking about making him dance, I just meant they could help him get around. Don't think I've been threatened with a stoning before.....

guess you havent been a dancing pope then

Not that I can recall......

fate and free will are the same thing. our minds are the center of everything. God is the same thing as our minds and our minds are God. Everything is a peice of this. There are so many aspects to this that we don't even notice the coinicidences that occur every single day. The way events turn out.
Our fate is the outcome of our lives and we control that fate completely, without knowledge that we have this power it is like an external force but this external force is also inside of ourselves, making it free will. There is no difference between the two.
We control our life and our life controls us. This body and who we think we are as a person is only a small aspect of our whole self. We are the entire world.

is everything fate or can you make your own future ?

shouldn't it be more like fate of choice...?

I don't think there is an answer to this....

To me, I think it's more of a destiny thing...

wouldnt destiny be the same as fate.......

Originally posted by peterKSL
I don't think there is an answer to this....

To me, I think it's more of a destiny thing...


Yes there is and Yes you can....I'm doing it..and so are others...

The only destiny you have is the destiny you make.

indeed... nothing is predetermined.

I believe in fate but we pre determined our decisions without knowing so basically I believe in a weird and philosophical way chance and fate are the same thing just explained in different ways.

I think that chance and fate are very similar...

Fate, I believe, is something pre-determined by some omnipotent and omnipresent being.

Chance is something that happens seemingly out of no pre-determination (for lack of a better word). But I do think there may be an aspect of fate in chance which is kinda hard to explain.

If you find a penny on the sidewalk did you find it by fate or fortune?

Man, I've totally confused myself and lost my train of thought... I was going to say something smart but I forgot it... no, really I was.

I have no idea what I'm trying to say anymore...

Fate or Fortune?

hmm...

it's tricky because neither of those options puts yourself in control... if you were destined to find that penny then some other being is in control of your life. If you found it by chance you are still out of control because it was not yourself that lead you to find that coin, it was whoever dropped it there... or was it?

this is where I think Fate and Fortune kind of intertwine...

man, I'm too tired for this kind of thinking right now. I'm sure I've made absolutely no sense, but whatever

Originally posted by lilmisskitten
wouldnt destiny be the same as fate.......

yes destiny is the same as fate... what I'm trying to say is there is no "answer" to this, but I am just giving my own personal oppinion on the matter...

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
indeed... nothing is predetermined.

One must learn to doubt... you don't have any evidence or whatsoever to support your arguement do ya? Remember one thing.. Nature outruns you!!

No, I don't have evidence... but I do have an open mind.

There is no evidence to support the contrary either...

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
No, I don't have evidence... but I do have an open mind.

There is no evidence to support the contrary either...

Well, I am being skeptical about there being an answer and you being confident with your theory... why do I need evidence to support something that I feel skeptical about?

Another thing about open minded... you said that nothing is predetermined... why don't I see any sign of open minded?

To me, open minded is merely just saying "OK". Nothing more...
if not, you are not open minded anymore, ain't it true?

By open-minded I mean I belive anything is possible and will not disregard anything off the bat...

I believe that nothing is pre-determined, that we are in control... but I am open to the possibility that there may be another force in control.

i believe in fate
especially before exams
if i am to pass i'll pass without learning
and if i'm to fail i'll fail and it doesn't matter how much do i learn

It's like this.

You make your own choices, the future is conceptual. There isn't any pre-planned destiny or fate.

However, actions that you take now WILL or CAN have an effect that will remain prominent.

Example, it's not fate when I'm born that I'll go to college. I make that happen. I get my grades and as a result, I will go to college in the future.

Cause/Effect/Consequence.

-AC

nice Clovie.

I don't believe in anything being predetermined. Everything is subject to choice. when someone makes a choice they alter the way everything will come out. This is close to fate but its not dictated by a plan, its all dictated by the choices we make. Chance is merely something we all deal with. When we hop in a car we are taking the chance that someone chose to drive drunk and we are possibly headed to our death. But if we chose to go a different way than normal our fate has been thwarted. Then of course some people say that you were destined to chose that way. And those people are just really looking for security

well put AC... I like your post better lol

so then would it be fair to say that Chance is controlled by other people around you and Fate is controlled by a 'Higher Power'?

No, it would be better to just say what I said, open your eyes and realise the only fate is the one you make.

-AC

Chance is controlled by more than just people. Nature also has an effect on chance (the wind blows and knocks a tree over into a house). Some people believe that all acts of nature are the will of the "higher power". I'm not sure if fate is controlled by the "higher power", i'm pretty sure most people just believe that their life is already laid out for them, most don't care who or why they just accept it.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, it would be better to just say what I said, open your eyes and realise the only fate is the one you make.


I do believe that, all I was doing was trying to define the terms...

it's a contradiction what you said though... fate is uncontrollable by yourself... but then I suppose it's supposed to be ironic...

Then lets not use the term fate.

Event/Effect/Consequence.

Something happens, it has an effect, there's a consequence. Nothing more.

-AC

Originally posted by lilmisskitten
is everything fate or can you make your own future ?

Somethings happen that is fate but other stuff happen because we can't control our future.Inleast we somehow know our future there is no way to stop it.JM

Men who crave power, look back over the mistakes of their lives, pile them all together, and call it "destiny".

just about everythin is predestined, even if ur "making ur destiny", its still destined that u MAKE "THAT" DESTINY THAT UR MAKING.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, it would be better to just say what I said, open your eyes and realise the only fate is the one you make.

-AC

Beautiful

Like ive said before

If you fight your destiny your surely to lose

It's kinda both.
You can control your fate to some extent with the choices you make, but only to some extent.
The rest is up to your destiny and it's beyond your control.

I was discussing this thing with a friend some time ago. And what he told me is that even though we think we make our own choices, they are conditioned by outside factors, so there's only one way that we would choose at the end. So, we don't really have a choice even though we think we do. Because every choice we make is a result of a series of factors...and there is only one way we can choose.

I don't really like this kind of reasoning, but It kinda makes sense. Anyway, I still like to think that we can make our own choices and that we make our future.