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Here's why I'm asking:

I have spent the last 3 days watching Episodes IV, V, and VI. I have a bit of a problem. In ANH, when Obi-Wan and Vader square off at the Death Star, Vader says, "When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the Master."

Ok, this would signify that when he and Obi parted ways (in whichever way that will be), Anakin had NOT become a Jedi (he was a learner when he left). I also have a problem with that word, "left." Did Anakin leave Obi-Wan, or did he fall into the lava as we have heard? But I digress...

Now, in ROTJ, after Luke kicks his fathers ass and hands him his right hand on a silver platter, he says to the emperor, "You've failed, your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

And let's not forget that in ANH, when Luke and Obi-Wan are at Obi's hut, Obi-Wan says, "I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."

These quotes are COMPLETELY contradictory. Obviously Anakin didn't become a Jedi before parting with Obi-Wan, so why did Luke and Obi-Wan say that his father was a Jedi? Anakin became a Sith, not a Jedi.

So, will Anakin be a Jedi in EIII? If so, this will add even more problems to the story in general. What are your thoughts?

corn

Anakin will still be a Jedi in EPIII. A Jedi knight, he actually says Once you were the master, now it is I.

ok i know where your going corn....

well one of my answers is, shit happens, maybe george didnt notice this nitpick when he made the script...

but , anikan does become a jedi...right? He become a jedi when he turned to the dark side and palpatine became his master, "What is thy bidding my master"

It's been confirmed that Anakin becomes a Jedi knight during the clone wars but never reaches the rank of Jedi master. This perceived snub by the Jedi council is one of the things that contributes to Anakins journey to the dark side.

Who says, "Once you were the master, now it is I"?

corn

But if you're a Jedi Knight, how can you be a learner? This is absolutely ridiculous.

cornponious

Anikan, actually Darth Vader in ANH

not if you look at it "from a certain point of view" what I mean by this is Anakin and Obi-Wan have always seemed to have this relationship where Obi-Wan seems to almost see himself "above" Anakin so to speak. And I dont mean literally as in the padawan/master sense. In alot of ways in ATOC he talks down to Anakin alot. Now if I were Anakin that would seriously rankle me after awhile. Perhaps this is what Vader is referring to in ROTJ.

First of all, Darth Vader definitely does NOT say, "Once you were the master, now it is I" in ANH. At no time during their fight does Vader refer to OWK as "Master", neither past nor present. He DOES refer to OWK earlier as "my old master". This would signify that OWK was indeed a Jedi Master. He was a Master BEFORE the Clone Wars. So that would indicate that Anakin was a Jedi during the Clone Wars.

So, if he was a Jedi, he was no longer a learner. He had nothing more to learn. However, he was still with OWK. He had not left him yet, but he was already a Jedi. This completely contradicts what Vader said in ANH to OWK during the Death Star duel.

The point of reference I use is Luke's journey to becoming a Jedi. If you remember, when Luke went back to Yoda to complete the training, he was discussing the training with Yoda and Yoda said, "No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need."

And Luke said, "Then I AM a Jedi." Yoda laughs and says,"One thing remains: Vader, you must face Vader. Only then a Jedi will you be."

So Luke had one more thing to learn before becoming a Jedi. This signifies that you stop being a learner when you become a Jedi. Again, this shows the contradiction in what Vader says to OWK at the Death Star.

There is no way that Anakin can be a Jedi in EIII, because that would mean that he is no longer a learner.

cornponious

Hmmmmmmmm be right back, going to the video on this.

ok the lines are
I have been waiting for you Obi-Wan. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but a learner. Now I am the master.
But see I'm thinking that this doesnt necessarily mean Anakin isnt a Jedi by the time ROTJ rolls around. I know Ive read that George Lucas confirmed that Anakin is a Jedi Knight by Episode 3 just not a Jedi Master.

edit: oops it wasnt GL it was Pablo see my post below.

So what's a Jedi Master? Seems to me that all that means is that you have a Padawan under your care and guidance.

corn

And Vader didn't say "... when I left you I was but a Jedi Knight, now I am a Master." He didn't mention being a Jedi at all. He said he was a learner. Now, what are Padawan's referred to all the time? Padawan Learners.

See?

cornponious

ok I found it at TFN

In a way similar to him being a Padawan and not understanding why he isn't a Knight yet, the Episode III Anakin is a Jedi Knight who doesn't get why the Council hasn't granted him the status of Master yet. -PH
PH = Pablo Hidalgo

corn honey I think maybe you are tying to think too literally in this scene. I honestly think this has to do with Anakin feeling "less than" Obi-Wan in his own mind.

This scene was filmed decades before there was any notion of the early relationship between Anakin and Obi-wan floating around in Lucas' head. When literal statements like Vader's are made, we should never be required to understand and figure out inner feelings of angst and inferiority in the character's mind, nor should we be required to have seen the earlier film to understand the meaning of a statement.

What Vader said in ANH is quite literal, and should be taken that way. He was a learner. That's pretty straightforward. And if you're a learner, you can't be a Jedi.

Let's face it, Lucas completely screwed this one up.

cornponious

are you kidding me? I always try and look beyond the written word for character development. But I can see where you are coming from. When I saw this film in 1977, I think I did indeed make the assumption that Anakin was Obi-Wan's pupil when they were last together. But today I'm ok with the way it all works out.

By the way when I went and watched that scene a few minutes ago to get the lines I noticed that I STILL get goosebumps when Obi-Wan lifts his saber up and lets Vader cut him down and Luke screams Noooo! GOD I LOVE THESE MOVIES!!

You're quite right. That look he gives Luke and then Vader before he sacrifices himself says volumes. I will always love these stories, regardless of the little problems here and there.

But I still don't think Anakin should be a Jedi.

cornponious

the

















last


























WORD!






lol just so Corn doesnt get to have it

As far as I know, Anakin does become a Jedi Knight in Episode 3, and Obi-Wan is a Jedi Master.

Agreed. TheForce.net confirms that by the time Episode III starts, Anakin is a full fledged Jedi Knight and Obi-Wan is a Jedi Master.

I think anakin will be a jedi then after his fall to the darkside the emperior will complete his training so his journey to the darkside was complete.for now have to find my droid

corn, just remember all Jedi's are learning new things. We all know how powerful Dooku is and after yoda deflected and absorbed his lightning attacks he says "much to LEARN you still have". this means yoda is telling Dooku (in his own rite quite powerful Jedi/Sith) he still has a lot of things to learn. so i guess even if you become a Jedi Knight or Master you will still learn new things.

ive always thought that padawans learn the basics of the Force from their master. after graduating from that they will need to learn new more powerful skills.

Corn, when Anakin refers to Obi as his old master, that doesn't mean that Obi is a Jedi Master, per se--it simply means that Obi was the one who teached him. Jedi ranking goes Padawan, Knight, and Master, and I'm 90% sure that Knights are given the rights to teach as well--I think you're looking into that particular part too much.

But Vader states : "... I was but the learner..." This clearly signifies that he was NOT a Jedi when he parted ways with OWK.

It could not be any more plainly stated than that.

corn

you can't really discuss this, I mean... as states here, it's confirmed that Anakin will be a Jedi Knight AND that he will nag the same way he did in AOTC to why he isn't a Master yet

that clearly shows that he is still on the Light Side at that point!

If your so caught up on that one little line, technically he isn't saying he was a padawan learner as far as i can tell, he says "i was but THE learner" the way i see it, he is talking about the relationship between himself and obi-wan and ofcourse as you said before, the prequels were decades away when that statement is made, it still suggests a relationship between them and still suggests that anakin sees obi-wan as being his master, ofcourse, until that moment.

the answer is simple.

first picture obiwan, a jedi night, asking yoda for guidance on how to properly train anakin...

now picture quigon, a jedi master asking yoda and mace for PERMISSION to train anakin.

there is a heirarchy in the jedi order, so you have someone to LEARN from even after you are knighted, and even after you become a master.

anakin will be a knight in epIII and obiwan will be a master. therefore, anakin will still be of a lower rank than kenobi...so he will still have to answer to him and yes...learn from him.

when vader becomes a sith, he sees the jedi as weak and flawed, and himself as all-powerful...so in his own mind, kenobi is weaker, and vader is the true master.

I disagree. I know it's just one little line in ANH, but it's a pretty straightforward line. "... I was BUT THE LEARNER..." As I stated before, he didn't say "I was but a Jedi Knight", he said he was just a learner. So why in the prequels are ONLY Padawans referred to as learners? Because they are the only learners!

When you become a Jedi Knight, you are no longer a learner. You no longer have a "Master" who is your teacher and trainer.

Someone stated earlier that there is a heirarchy in the Star Wars universe. That's true: there is a Padawan Learner, and a Master. When Darth Vader met up with OWK again in ANH, he wanted Kenobi to know that he was no longer the learner, that HE was now the Master.

This unequivocally signifies that when Vader left Kenobi (at least in Lucas' ORIGINAL vision in 1977), he was NOT a Jedi, but was still a learner.

Come on, people! Lucas completely forked things up here!

corn

As a follow up to my last post, in regards to the little mistakes and errors on the part of Lucas, I have to say that it is difficult to forego all that I knew in relation to the OT.

For instance, it was VERY difficult for me to swallow the whole Quigon Jinn story. We all know there is no reference to Jinn in ANY of the OT films. That's simply because, in Lucas' mind in '77 '80 and '83, Jinn did not exist. Kenobi stated that Yoda was "... the Jedi Master who instructed me." Later, at Dagobah, when Yoda was complaining about Luke, Kenobi's ghost stated, "Was I any different when you taught me?"

So, for many years, it was just common knowledge that at some point in the far past, Yoda was the one who taught Kenobi to use the force and to become a Jedi.

But EI comes out, and we find out that Quigon is actually the one who trained Kenobi up to the trials. So Lucas comes up with this lame idea that Yoda teaches ALL young Padawans up to a certain age.

What I get is that Lucas comes up with these flashy stories, puts them together, then turns around and says, "Oh, wait, that doesn't work with the original story. Maybe we could get around it if we added this little bit in..." Flash over style and story.

Anakin should NOT become a Jedi. According to Vader's statement in ANH, he was still a learner when he separated from Kenobi. Frankly, I think it would be BETTER if did not become a Jedi. Think of the anger that Anakin would feel due to not achieving the goal of Jedi Knight. A goal that he has spent his entire life trying to achieve. A goal that he was separated from his mother to achieve, and it ultimately cost her life. Had Anakin never been taken away to be a Jedi, perhaps she would still be alive. I couldn't imagine a more devastating event that could create the anger in Anakin that leads him to destroy the Jedi.

This is just how it appears to me.

corn

nope, can't agree there.

there are more ranks than padawan and master.

it goes:
padawan>jedi knight>jedi master>jedi council member
just because you become a knight, you are not yet(or ever) independant.
"when i left you, i was but the learner" that can't be translated so literally.
a padawan learns from his master, a knight learns from jedi masters, masters
learn from the council. no jedi is independant. even yoda has to consult with his peers.

corn,
yoda DID instruct kenobi, when he was a youngling.
before a master takes on a padawan, that padawan must learn the
basics from yoda. as you see in ANH, kenobi gives luke the EXACT same training on the Millenium Falcon as we see with the younglings.

EDIT (forgot to finish my point)

when luke was trained by kenobi, he was completely new to the force,
as were the younglings. so, technically, he was a youngling at that point (ANH) obiwan was probably comparing luke to when HE was new to it as well, however he was a small child.

but age wasnt the issue, it was knowledge of the force that was the issue.

Ok, I wasn't saying that was the ONLY rank. I was saying that Padawan is the ONLY rank that is referred to as "learner". And that is precisely why the quote "... I was but the learner..." can be translated so literally.

Also, I must assume that ANY Jedi is referred to as "master". Palpatine refers to Kenobi as "Master Kenobi" in AOTC, even though he is only a Jedi Knight, not a Jedi Master. So, if Anakin does indeed become a Jedi Knight, then he would be "Master Skywalker". There again, what would be the point of him telling Kenobi in ANH that when he left he was a learner, now he is the master? He was already a master when he became a Jedi!

You see how these things just don't work?

corn

p.s., I'm having LOADS of fun with this.

LMAO! I KNEW IT!

But I do take it seriously!!!!!!!






cornplentious

"p.s., I'm having LOADS of fun with this."

but of coarse
i pity those who debate star wars and don't have fun.
and believe me, they are out there!

Then you'll understand that when I call all of you

FORKING RETARDS

I'm only joking.


cornponious

oh ok, i think i found mr. lucas's loop hole.

here it is: "I have been waiting for you Obi-Wan. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but a learner. Now I am the master."

it does NOT say: When I I was but a learner. Now I am the master.
nor does it say
so he was referring to the time when he was still good, not the time he betrayed the jedi.

so, when anakin becomes a knight, kenobi will no longer be his master.
it is then that the student LEAVES the master.

some take it too serious here

up to my knowledge, a Jedi Knight is working on his own; he passed the tests, he is ready... how else can someone have a padawan if they gotta watch out for knights too? doesn't make sense, padawans are the only learners there are

and y'know what... that's all besides the point here
it is official that Anakin will be (LIKE OB1) a Jedi Knight in EpIII, that's all there is to it

I belive the line was "When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the Master."

And Anakin IS still the learner come Episode III because a Jedi Master is ranked higher than a Jedi Knight. (i.e. Mace Windu is higher than Obi-Wan) And there is even a ranking among Jedi Masters as Yoda is higher than Mace Windu.

Mace is higher than Yoda
Mace is the one leading the council, not Yoda, it's said somewhere don't recall where though

well get on it man! we demand proof!

McC said it

Yoda is the most powerful of all the Jedi. This is made clear when Palpatine butters Anakin up in the Chancellor's office in Episode II.

"I forsee you becoming the most powerful of all the Jedi, even more powerful than Master Yoda."

Anakin to Padme about OB1:
"He's as wise as master...
and as powerful as master ... "

which name is on which place again?

What? Mace is higher than Yoda? Hmmmm....first I hear about that.

it's only cause they said it, you can't see it

erm Im not buying this one Yers, yoda ran the show me thinks

well, I'll try and find the source tomas

thats me! I want proof!

not in the databanks, pretty sure it was somewhere written

NO, he will become a sith.

by the way, in the third movie he has long hair (UGLY), and in the last he is bald. where did he put all of the lost hair. (eat it?).

SITH SITH SITH SITH SITH SITH SITH...ect.

Gee I dont know, but I read somewhere that hot lava can burn off your hair. And thats not what he was asking.

i really want to prove lucas correct and consistant,
but another line from ep4 just popped in my head:

"A young jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights"

now, we know that part of this statement was a lie...i mean...a certain point of view...but it does support the whole claim of inconsistancy.
in fact, you can totally disregard the PT and eps 5&6 and it is STILL inconsistant, since in the same conversation, ben says "I was once a JEDI KNIGHT the same as your father"

now, its known that when lucas finished ep4, he still had not decided that vader was luke's father, and that darth vader DID kill his father...so where i'm going with this is:
will lucas decide to edit ep4 to make it consistant? will he dare erase alec guinness' words from the film? god i really hope not.

True. If Anakin was a pupil of Kenobi's UNTIL he turned to evil, he could not have become a Jedi.


corn

I don't care about small little lines of inconsistancy, as long as GL provides me with another great SW movie I'd be happy with that.

Yeah, i'd say this is going nowhere, GL pretty much makes it up as he goes along so there is bound to be little things that don't seem to fit.

I don't think the line said by Vadar to Obi-wan indicates any inconsistancy, at least the way i see it and the way its worded, but the line mentioned above definately seems like a hole.

what he says is still true...from a certain point of view
A jedi Master is still a Jedi knight, a jedi knight isn't only a rank, it's also the general name for those people who are organised into the Jedi Order...
so, ... what the first phrase means... OB1 teached Anakin but when he went dark (which he technically already did in AOTC with the tuskens) he stopped being Anakin and became Vader, and a Jedi doesn't teach a darkie of course...

for the second phrase, as said above, Anakin was a jedi knight... he was one in AOTC as he was a padawan learner in the jedi knight order... and in EpIII he will be a Jedi Knight (according to Pablo)

so there is absolutley NO reason to edit EpIV in ANY way

"OB1 teached Anakin but when he went dark (which he technically already did in AOTC with the tuskens) he stopped being Anakin and became Vader, and a Jedi doesn't teach a darkie of course..."

gotta disagree there.
since he later returned to his senses, he had not turned to evil. to "turn to evil" suggests a permanence. face it, its a gaping hole. believe me, i hate it just as much as you do. it makes me wish i never took part in this thread. sometimes ignorance really is bliss

To bad GL didnt sit and write them all in the beggining huh. We wouldnt have this debate, we wouldnt have the Kiss of Insest. The word sith would be as popular as the word Jedi is today Ect.....

Nothing like revitalizing a dead thread...

Got a couple comments.

"A young jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights"

and the

"When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master." (or some such)

These can easily be explained using the rules of the English language and exploring the situations the characters were in when they spoke.

The first quote, as I remember, is of OWK who has sat down Luke and his telling him a sort of BRIEF history. For those that are slow or blind, the keyword is BRIEF. Being concise is a top priority in good writing doctrines.

Now, Obi-Wan could have said, "A young jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine, who then went on to complete the Jedi trials and became a Jedi Knight and turned to evil, helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights."

However, obviously this statement is awkward, especially from a "storyteller" point of view. While it's nice to add details, this one is rather mundane, and doesn't make for a good story nor does it help in the department of being brief and concise(something this sentence was not). So, in the spirit of good literature and story telling, this was left out.

The second quote can be seen in the same light. Darth Vader is about to engage Obi-Wan IN A SWORD FIGHT. I will further add that IT WAS TO THE DEATH.

Darth Vader obviously wanted to impress the fact that at some point Obi-Wan was his teacher. As far as the script goes, I can see that point being made very clear. It's short and easy to understand. Darth Vader could have engaged Obi-Wan in a full-length dissertation of the every step that it took from his Padawanship to his desertion of the Light, but under the circumstances(again, swordfight) it just wasn't necessary.

All these characters, in both instances, were trying to get across was that they were student/teacher. While if we take the text literally we come up with a contradiction, this contradiction can be overlooked by understanding what these characters were trying to get across. All these characters were trying to do was enlighten the audience as to a student/teacher bond they shared. They did so in short, concise sentences. People do this sort of paraphrasing all the time. As an example I will explain the start of my day... I woke up this morning, hopped into the shower, and then went to work. If you were to critically, and literally, analyze this statement, you will notice that I woke up, hopped into the shower(apparantly still wearing my PJ's as I did not mention taking those off), and then went to work(either in wet pajamas or naked, depending on whether or not you caught the fact that I didn't mention my undressing). However, you probably INFERRED that I had undressed before showering, and that I put work clothes on after that shower. People paraphrase all the time, it's part of daily life. Neither Obi-Wan or Darth Vader had to go to elaborate lengths to completely factualize their past. They simply spoke naturally, trying to convey a complicated message as concisely as possible. One of the beautiful things about the human mind is that it can interpret abstract thoughts and come to conclusions based on inferences. One should not need every single step, instance, or fact in any given pattern in order to come into understanding of that pattern. Leave the cold, hard logic to calculators and binary automatons. Learn to love the English language and the art of conciseness.

There's something else going on there. OB1 is clearly embarrased about the whole situation. And in ANH he suddenly has the son of his former student sitting there, wanting to know what happened to his father. No one wants to talk about it, and now OB1 (feeling guilty party no. 1) has to talk about his own failure. Plus he's trying to protect Luke in trying to channel his feelings, to prevent him from rushing to his daddy should he feel the urge. From OB1's POV there's a lot at stake so he chooses his words carefully, trying not to lie but also to not reveal too much and to hide his own blame.

As for Vader, he's just hateful towards OB1 and doesn't mind making him look bad. So all he's concerned about is making OB1 look bad, both during his fight with OB1, as well as in the one with Luke.

anakin in ep3 in my opinion reaches the rank of jedi knight still making him a LEARNER in order to reach the rank of jedi master....which is the rank obi kenobi has reached in ep3 to match mace windu yoda etc...i think it follows PADAWAN-JEDI KNIGHT-JEDI MASTER-JEDI GHOST of course i colud be wrong

The view I agree most with was already mentioned earlier in thread(and since I know corn is enjoying the merry-go-round anyway ) Anyway, my take on that phrase by Vader is that when last they met, Vader was still a learner in the sense that he couldn't beat Obi-Wan even in all of his rage, and Obi-Wan being an ever growing master himself still knew more than Anakin did. There might be some details in the movie that tip the fight either way, but however it happens we know Obi-Wan prevails in Episode III. And from the time Vader and Obi-Wan last met, Vader must've grown much, and learned under the emperor so the match in ANH would have a different outcome than the one before. I'm thinking too that Ben knew in advance that he would have to die, and the way he chooses to go seems to indicate Ben knew well what he was doing...

Vader seems to know the same thing Ben does. He does say "Escape is not his plan"; Vader must have been itching for a rematch.

if you keep it strictly on topic... this should be closed since Pablo already gave the answer: yes, he will be and he'll nag that he won't be a master yet

if you go on about what OB1 and Vader says in ANH:
he is still a learner, since he at the time of the duel was a knight and not a master. A master should know everything (or at least almost everything) what there is to know for his profession, a knight knows the basics and some details; no?

Anakin will be a Jedi Knight in Ep.3 and not a learner, but in the end, Obi-Wan defeats Anakin. That is why Anakin felt lesser than Obi-Wan, prior to their meeting on the Death Star. Simple as that.

It is also possible that although Anakin passes the Jedi trials, perhaps Obi-Wan says to the council that Anakin is not yet ready to be separated from him. This could be the ultimate "holding-back" of Anakin.

looks like JP's last word has been squashed

Okay, time to make a surrogate last word.

JP: "Last Word!!!"

So will Anakin be a Jedi when the movie begins or during EpIII?

Yep no padawan briad just the revenge of the mullet

yes anakin will be a jedi when ep3 starts and he will prove it by cutting off count dooku head and arms he probibley will be strong in the force.

I've read that tim but will that make the cut though so to speak??? (word joke) I mean its a bit gory for the wee ankle biters to see and he doesnt have a helmet on like jango???!!! dooku's head>

And how do you know?

SUPERSHADOW!!!

I take it would be easier to make him Knight already in the yellow scroll then to use a scene on it

Yeah he made jedi knight status in the clone wars

if that's what the scroll says

maybe???

Can't argue with that.