Captain America vs Black Panther

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Mane
ok here it is. the battle thats been plaguing me for weeks. they are about the same level in strength, durability, etc, but Caps has better fighting skills. i think Caps could take it, but i know that T'Challa is no pushover.

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/mathew/images/cscaptainamerica.jpg

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/features/images/bp/rooftop.jpg

Arachnoidfreak
I'd want Black Panther to whoop his ass, cuz Capt. America sucks. Die Captain!!!

Victor Von Doom
I'd be backing Black Panther, but Captain America would win.

Mane
yeah thats what i was thinking

ScarletSpider
I'm not so sure if Cap is the better fighter. It depends on who's writing it. We hear things like "I mastered lethal combat by the time I was 6" from Panther and Hunter, The White Wolf (his adopted brother). When Cap was 6, he probably couldn't make it from his bed to the bathroom on time. As a warrior king, T'Challa has mastered many many fighting styles.

Any offensive shield attacks are useless on T'Challa. His suit would sap the momentum of the shield and it would just drop in the air when it got to him. Cap also has his back-up photonic shield that he keeps for emergencies in his glove. It might be easier for him to use that. And who knows what Cap keeps in his belt. Lately he's been seen with a utility belt type thing. A little Batman-esque, but more in line with Cyclops' old pocket belt and the Punisher's. They have one, but we never see what's in it.

Panther has his energy dagger, which can operate as a regular knife, or fire energy projectiles. He has his anti-metal claws (I wonder if those would affect Cap's shield?) which, if Cap wears chain-mail, would easily pierce that. He has his vibranium boots, which he can vibrate at different frequencies, to absorb impact, or act like anti-vibranium and other effects. He has his suit which absorbs momentum of bullets and metal objects and also carries (although rarely uses) a ceremonial heirloom, a pure vibranium knife coated with anti-metal vibranium.

Both are tactical genius' and very smart. They're about the same strength level and agility level. Panther has his enhanced senses, which he could probably find a setting to use those to his advantage.

I want to see Black Panther win.

wolverine 101
i think cap would win

norrin radd
captain is more popular, if they wrote this fight they would never put him loosing UNFORTUNATELY, because panther is better, i go with him.

Alpha Centauri
I hate Captain America man. I want any villain to just kill him in battle.

Dr.Doom preferably.

-AC

norrin radd

Mane
yeah id like to see T'Challa win, but im a bigger fan of Captain America (contrary to everyone else on this website), and he'd probly win because T'Challa is the underdog (as far as fan voting goes)

norrin radd

Daredevil75
dude cap turn him into a blood stain.

DarkCrawler
Black Panther.

ScarletSpider
Panther would eviscerate Cap.

papablkbear
always bet on black. I give this one to the panther

Hostile
lol papa, nicely said. Personally I hate Captain America and everything he stands for. Captain Britain would kick his ass!

moshtitan
they fought in Contest of Champions 2 with Cap. coming out on top, although it was said neither man was fighting at their full potential.

Mane
if they were fighting at their full potential, i think T'Challa would be able to take him. but otherwise i back Caps

Nathaniel Grey
This is another fight that I think already occured in the comics. It was in one of the older Avengers comics where Captain America fought the Black Panther -- and won. But my vote would go to BP. Call me biased because I probably am. But I think T'Challa is one of the baddest mofo's in the not so superhuman powered community.

Evangel94
Black Panther more often than not.

Spiderninja008
This looks like they are too evenly matched.....idk who to say.

Maelstrom
Cap. He's got the shield and he's a better fighter.

ScarletSpider
Panther's claws should theoretically be able to harm Cap's shield. Once he does that, the boyscout is out of it. "Old body, old pal, you were like my right arm. Remember in volume three, where I lost you, and referenced your loss in over 20 seperate issues until I finally got you back because of arrested plot development? Yeah, those were good times, oh bother."

There's no concrete evidence to say Cap's a better fighter. He's beaten Panther, while they were being mind controlled. Panther figured this out, and used all of his will power to overcome the control and lose purposefully. He's the living legend of WWII, fighting the good fight since 1941! "Oh please, you spent more years on ice than you ever have fighting the good fight." - Thin Man right before he beats the snot out of him.

I'd rather see T'Challa win.

Havoc470
i voted for BP, but small amounts of lagg and scrolling usually effect my decision

Spiderninja008
I say BP wins, but has the fight of his life.

MERCILOUS
I don't know about those antimetal claws, but do note that Cap's shield is a vibranium/admantium alloy. His claws are only rumored to be able to cut adamantium, and the properties of vibranium might indeed by the correct counter to such an implement.

Nathaniel Grey
As I see it they're just about neck in neck. Except for the fact that Cap has the superior strength and endurance. And endurance as I see it is a key factor when engaging in hand to hand combat. I doubt T'Challa could outlast Rogers in a long drawn out battle. ( Which between them you know would be the case. I believe. ) BP of course would hold his own but Cap just outmatches him in those departments. It's a close call...I'm leaning more towards Cap on this one though.

Spiderninja008
i wud say bp dure to fighting ability and facing death everyday with African wild life.

Havoc470
.......as apposed to caps fighting ability and facing death everyday against superpowered villains...

Arsenal
African wild life is more dangerous then superpowered villains Havoc.

norrin radd

Arsenal
Cap sends a bad message to kids everywhere. Next thing you know kids are going to start taking steroids.

lifeisaglich
Yes but Captain America is the guy that can talk you into jumping off a cliff making you to believe that you have wings and you can fly. He is quite the motivational speaker.

ScarletSpider
Cap's on steroids.

Panther's on drugs (magic herbs...yeah right)

What wonderful messages we send to our kids.

Nathaniel Grey
There's a difference between them though. Cap's super soldier serum was artificially made in a lab to enhance his senses not unlike crack. But T'Challa's herb was naturally developing in the Wakandan jungles to also enhance his senses and cure his glaucoma. whistling So as you can plainly see...this has nothing to do with the topic...

MatchesMalone
Are we all in agreement that Cap takes steroids and Panther smokes weed?

Nathaniel Grey
I believe for the most part, yes.

Wynndar
Panther is everything Cap is....but slightly better..the herb places him at peak human like Cap, but increases senses and agility...Panther also has the cat reflexes and is far smarter...um im pretty sure BP figured out how to cut vibranium when he made the antimetal claws, BP is a master of using vibranium...vibranium is more rare than adamantium since its a meteorite only found in two places...one is the country Wakanda which BP is sovereign ruler...the other is the savage land.

norrin radd
err, maybe he can convince you not me.

norrin radd
yes but at least weed is natural, it is on mother nature.

Nathaniel Grey
I've had some time to think about it and I truly believe that Black Panther would take Cap in a fight. He's always several steps ahead of whatever foe he's against and by now I'm sure he pretty much has Cap's abilities memorized and categorized. He's knows Captain America's tendencies and mistakes. Cap is a great strategist unparalleled and unmatched. He also has greater strength and endurance but he's also a " fair " player. He often comes across as boyscout-ish to me which can be a major downfall against a ruthless foe like T'Challa. Captain America didn't even realize that Black Panther was spying on the Avengers when he first joined their ranks. Something tells me it wouldn't take much for BP to tranquilize Rogers and put him down. Afterall in Red Zone Cap pretty much walked RIGHT into Red Skull's trap. Personally that doesn't bode well for the man in the red, white and blue.

Capt.JK
Then obviously you need to sit down and think about it some more. You say BP "...has Cap's abilities memorized and categorized, his tendencies and mistakes." Well, BLACK PANTHER has this to say about Cap (as Cap was beating him):

"The speed and reactions of the man are incredible. For every move, he has a counter. He adapts instinctively to every situation, every fighting style."

Cap is the absolute PEAK of human physical perfection: Strength, Speed, Agility, Endurance, Stamina; all at the TOP of the human genome. BP is not the physical equal of Cap in any department.
Black Panther is a highly accomplished martial artist, but Cap is the one that trained him! Cap trains all of the Avengers in hand-to-hand combat, and has been ackowledged to be one of the best there is by most of the Marvel Universe. When BP joined the Avengers as a regular member way back in the 70's, he was little more than an accomplished acrobat with a few "cat-like" powers. Captain America turned him into the fighter he is now.
Captain America is THE best battlefield tactician there is. To quote Cap himself from "The New Deal" series: "Don't let the enemy choose the battlefield. Or the time of engagement. Don't let the enemy anticipate the strength or the direction of your attack. Strike without warning. Never allow the enemy to bait you into a trap." Sounds like he knows what he's doing to me. And I can't find a single issue where Cap FIGHTS like a "boy scout". Just because he prefers milk to beer and encourages kids to eat their vegetables doesn't mean he doesn't take it to the enemy in a hundred different ways on the battlefield.
Cap does not get tired. It has said this over and over again in his comics (of which I have almost ALL). The toxins that are produced in the body (mainly lactic acid) that cause you to tire from physical exertion are burned off as quickly as they are produced in Cap's body.
Finally, Cap's shield could not be harmed by BP's anti-metal claws. His shield is an Adamantium/Vibranium composite, bonded at the molecular level, through an unknown, lost process. Only a ground zero, thermo-nuclear explosion could break that bond, and even this is only a guess.

Havoc470
i could've told you that

anyway, both of you give good arguements so i cant really say who'd win, but personally i'd go for black panther

Wynndar
an acrobat with cat like powers? um well when he first appeared...in the 60's, he did neutralize the FF...something the entire Avengers cannot do. u keep saying Cap is better at this and that with nothing to back it up. Cap is the pinnacle physical human but so is the Panther...they r both peak human in all categories...although I have seen BP leap higher and with more agiltiy than either Cap or Daredevil...the panther's style also gives him numerous advantages...they have fought more than once...and i think they were both under mind control in the instance u mentioned. Cap gave him everything he had in another encounter and it ended in a stalemate...Panther later revealed he was not trying to be offensive, but just test to see if it was the real Captain America...that convinces me that BP was simply playing with him and if BP wanted to, he could have taken control of the fight.

lifeisaglich
Sure but not the ones that black panther takes. Because if what you said is so, then anybody should be able to take it without falling into a coma.

It is a special kind of weed genetically altered for the kings of Wakanga.

Havoc470
wakanda, not wakanga lol

lifeisaglich
You have your way and I have mind.

Havoc470
.....okay lol

lifeisaglich
I see now, I spelled it Wakanga but it is suppose to be Wakanda.

I am pretty sure you first spelled it Wkanda.?? Did you forget the a?

Havoc470
it was just a typo that i fixed

Capt.JK
How about this for starters:
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/b/blackpanther.htm

And they were not under mind control, but they were simply unsure of why they were fighting. But they did fight and Cap won. And if you look through the Avengers comics from the early 70's on, after BP joined the Avengers as a regular member, you will see that BP was not much more than an acrobat with a couple of minor abilities. He was an Avengers "second-stringer". And I have comics of Cap leaping off of buildings and helicopters, so I'd say they're pretty equal in the jumping and agility departments.

lifeisaglich
If cap. can jump of buildings and helicopters then his super soldier serum makes him stronger than the black panthers herb.

To jumps of tall building the panthers shoe absorbs the impact. This is what I am basing it on.

Capt.JK
Precisely. Cap wears no such equipment. His musculature, bone density and agility, along with his constant training, are what enables him to absorb the impact. He is far more durable than Black Panther. BP falls short of Cap in every department.

Cap wins.

lifeisaglich
Not all department because panthers sense of smell on par with wolverines but not as good. So you see panther takes this one.

How did panther stalemate cap. when he was supposedly giving it his all?

Nathaniel Grey
I would agree with you were it the 1970's Black Panther but the character since then has exponentially grown. His strengths have been reinforced and reinvented allowing the character to go toe to toe with even the most potent adversaries. And viewing him as a " second stringer " is a big mistake on anyones part. The man can declare war on the US and would probably win. Anyway, The CURRENT incarnation of Black Panther is said to be on PAR with Captain America in every aspect save overall endurance and strength. Btw, I've never read that Rogers " trained " Black Panther to be a compotent martial artist. What comic book and which issue did it mention that? Throughout the BP comics I have it always states T'Challa being an accomplished warrior who was savvy in various African Martial arts. Captain America knows African Martial Arts?

Nathaniel Grey
I've got a pretty decent collection of Captain America. I'd like to say I'm somewhat up to date on the characters skills and abilities. Can you say the same about Black Panther? Have you ever read a more recent BP comic? I'm just curious.

Havoc470
i think in the black panther relaunch cap and bp fight eachother, in the latest wizard theres a small clip of both of them going head on

Capt.JK
I've read a few of the new BP comics, and I have nearly all of Cap's. If you look at back issues of the Avengers, you will find various mentions of Cap training all of the Avengers, both in hand-to-hand and team fighting tactics. Black Panther was a "competent" fighter when his character first came on the scene, but it was his training as an Avenger that made him the fighter he is now. Do you think Cap trained everybody EXCEPT Black Panther? And where pray-tell did you find a reference that puts T'Challa on PAR with Cap?

Every non-Cap fan I've ever talked to makes the same mistakes: Cap's a "boy scout", Cap isn't as agile as (insert their favorite character here), Cap can't fight as well as (insert their favorite character here). These are also usually people who have not read a whole lot about Cap (again, too "boy scoutish", not "gritty" enough). The truth is, according to MARVEL (you've heard of them, I'm sure; they're the ones who created Captain America), Cap is one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the whole Marvel Universe. He does not knock his opponents down and then apologise and help them back up. He jumps on them and kicks their ass. His abilities are ABSOLUTE peak human capabilities. This includes agility. Nowhere does it say, "Cap has peak human physical abilities, EXCEPT for agility." He is the top rung of the human genome.

No amount of character reinventing is going to change the fact that Black Panther IS NOT going to beat Captain America in a one-on-one battle. Even BP says so.

Havoc470
well, i do think he's an agile character and definitely has one hell of a fighting ability, and i also think he's a boy scout, that doesnt necessarily mean he just helps old ladies across the street and drinks milk all the time, it just puts him more along the lines of cyclops or superman

Nathaniel Grey
This is the website of the most popular Black Panther writer to date. He brought out the greatest aspects of the character and reinvented him to be so much more than a " second string " character. It's not a FAN site. This is the ACTUAL page of the writer who wrote Black Panther, Marvel Knights, Captain America & Falcon and The Crew. Christopher J. Priest. And since he's currently writing CAP I'm sure he's got a good idea of both their capabilities. http://phonogram.us/comics/panther/faq.htm

Please give me an issue number in which it's stated that Black Panther was trained in Martial Arts by Captain America. I see NO indication of it in the Avengers comics that I have. Nor the Black Panther comics I have. Not a single reference was made to show that your statement is a fact -- so far.

Nathaniel Grey
Yes, I do doubt it. I don't believe that Captain America went to the extreme of what you're saying. Perhaps I'm misconstruing what it is you're getting at but my perception is that you're degrading the Black Panther by stating he required Captain America's assistance. As I recall Black Panther runs a country and was rarely ever around the Avengers unless he was truly required. He NEVER played ball with the team and was much like Batman was with the JLA. I'm sure he trained " WITH " Captain America so that they could operate better as a unit and not individuals. But somehow I seriously doubt that T'Challa owes his skills and prowess to some lowly American mongrel. T'Challa's character indicates that he's absolutely too PROUD to even concieve of such a notion as you mentioned. And so T'Challa makes an observation that Captain America is a worthy adversary and immediately you assume that means he's " superior " to him?

Nathaniel Grey
For those of you who don't know Black Panther, here's a small bio.


Black Panther (T'Challa):
Inactive member of the Avengers (seventh recruit); former unofficial associate of Defenders; former member of Fantastic Force. Warrior king of the African nation Wakanda and wearer of its ceremonial Black Panther garb, T'Challa took an extended leave from his duties to join the Avengers when the departing Captain America asked the Black Panther to replace him. At first, the Panther had the ulterior motive of discerning whether or not the Avengers represented a threat to his nation's interests, essentially spying on the group from within, but he soon grew to respect and admire the Avengers, serving the team faithfully. For an extended period, T'Challa divided his time between Wakanda, the Avengers and a dual identity as an American schoolteacher (Luke Charles), helping to educate American children regarding African culture. Inevitably, he decided to devote his principal energies to Wakanda and resumed his throne full-time, becoming an inactive member of the Avengers. He has served with the team on an irregular basis since then (often assisting in technical matters), and for a time was a member of the team called Fantastic Force. While he is committed first and foremost to ruling his country, the Panther has maintained his ties with the Avengers and continues to assist them on occasion.

Capt.JK
I thought you would find this interesting. Read the part where it talks about BP being captured and the one who did it being physically bested by... Captain America.
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/m/manape.htm

Also, read here where it says Captain America is one of the finest human combatants earth has ever known. Can't find any references like that about BP.
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/captainamerica.htm

Coincidentally, the "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe" puts the CURRENT Black Panther 2 levels BELOW Cap in fighting skills.

And btw, I take just a little bit of offense to that "lowly American mongrel" statement. Where are you from, partner?

Nathaniel Grey
Marvel Directory though an interesting source for information tends to be one sided and often out of date when concerning individual character information. What applied 4 years ago doesn't exactly mix with what's currently happening in the comics. ( Ex; It states BP can land from 8 story buildings when in several comics it states anywhere from 30-60. )

Yes. And if you read the beginning of your own reference it states that Man-Ape is second to T'Challa as far as being one of Wakanda's greatest warriors. What's the point there?

Emphasis on one of. I have plenty of references that state that Black Panther is " one of " the most powerful men in the world. Does that make Captain America less " powerful "?Think about it for a moment from an objective point of view.

To state that Black Panther isn't a match for Captain America is just straight out fanboyism. Though I personally believe that were they in a scuffle it would take a great deal of Black Panther's resources and cunning to take Captain America down, a task that by no means would be easy consider he's fighting Cap, is entirely possible. I doubt Rogers would have asked someone to replace him were they not on par with his own skills and abilities. Just like it would be utterly for me to state that Black Panther could EASILY take down Captain America without great sacrifice or struggle. A somewhat objective point of view is what's required.

Calm down. The comment was made in reference to what Zuri ( BP Character ) stated about Americans in the BP comics. He sees them as " lowly American mongrels " in comparison to T'Challa who's a King, lest we forget. I'm from New York. Born and raised. Don't get overly patriotic on me homie.

Nathaniel Grey
Official Marvel Handbooks also say that Wolverine's eyes are " blue ". But I'm sure the readers who've followed the series know better.

Nathaniel Grey
RAWR!

Capt.JK
Well, first off, I was talking about the one that just came out. Hell, it even has a picture of BP with his really pretty gold fingernails and his new outfit. And as far as I can tell, the background and story info on BP ran right up until the handbook came out. Also, my point about Man-Ape was that he defeated T'Challa and most of his tribe and the rest of the Avengers. Then Cap showed up and took him down.

I am not saying that Cap would EASILY defeat BP, but he WOULD defeat him. BP is not the caliber of character that Cap is. Period. Black Panther is more adept at street crime. Cap hangs with the "big boys" on a daily basis. And Cap placed T'Challa in charge of the Avengers during his absense for his skills at being a leader as much as for anything else. It also helped to solidify BP's place in the Avengers. If he was merely going to put someone in charge who could beat him up , he would have given the reigns to Thor.

Nathaniel Grey
Then apparently you haven't read a single issue of Chris Priest's Black Panther. What does BP get from dealing with ordinary " Street " Crime? Nothing. That element has absolutely NOTHING to do with the security of Wakanda which has always been the characters main concern. Now you're just out right insulting the integrity of the character himself. Black Panther not the same caliber of character? I beg to differ. Black Panther has always fought against and with the " big boys" as you've put it. I can name NUMEROUS high profile villians that he's tangled with. ( Magneto, Dr. Doom, Mephisto, Red Skull ) Even some I doubt Captain America himself could handle. My point is you seem to just write off the Black Panther as so many readers do. He's come a long way from being just a " man in black tights ". He's much more than many admit he is and it's a shame that few regard him as little more than a " street crime fighter ". The man is a global warrior. He can declare war on countries and even cripple ( Marvel ) America economically. Give credit where credit is due. Viewing him as a " second string " character just goes to show how little is truly known about the character on your part. Stop looking at their conflict with one another through fanboy eyes and try to be objective. Though I agree -- Black Panther physically wouldn't stand toe to toe with Captain America but he is a SMARTER and more tatical fighter. He stays ones step ahead of those he fights and often causes them to blink when he wishes.

Capt.JK
Saying Black Panther is a "more tactical" fighter than Captain America has got to be one of the most "fanboyistic" (hey, I made up a new word) statements I have ever read in a thread, right up there next to Bat Man vs Everybody. Cap is the epitome of battlefield and combat tactics. His character's whole concept is based on it! And once again, whether you like it or not, BP SAYS SO HIMSELF. And saying BP could declare war on America or cripple it economically has NOTHING to do with a hand-to-hand joust between the two men. You admit yourself that BP can't go toe-to-toe with Cap... well, what are we talking about then? Can T'Challa run a country better than Cap? Absolutely. Is BP one savvy politician, who has brought his country out of the jungle and to the forefront of global technology and economics? Without a doubt.

WHICH HAS ABSOLUTELY ZERO TO DO WITH CAP TAKING HIM OUTSIDE AND SPANKING HIM ON THE BATTLEFIELD!!!

That said, I appreciate that Marvel has chosen to explore new story lines and arcs with what I always felt was an underrated character, but please don't "jump on the bandwagon" and declare him the "be-all end-all" of hand-to-hand in the Marvel Universe just because you like his "grittiness". There are already enough Wolverine and Deadpool fans to go around for that. Marvel Comics, the guys who OWN these characters, and who are responsible for every story printed about them, say that CAP IS BETTER. Period. End of discussion. Write a petition to Marvel and plead your case, but facts is facts. Cap wins.

Nathaniel Grey
Side note;

First I'd like to bring up a point that will probably destroy the credibility of any and all websites. Now according to MARVEL.COM ( The OFFICIAL website of Marvel. ) Captain America and Black Panther have the exact same durability, strength and speed. The only places they varied were in Intelligence in which Black Panther excelled over Captain America. Energy projection in which Black Panther excelled over Captain America and Fighting Skill in which Captain America excelled over Black Panther. Now this is Marvel.com...the OFFICIAL site of Marvel and I'm sure you don't agree with some of the points on there but what more is there to say if this is the OFFICIAL site? Concerning their abilities that is.

Nathaniel Grey
The fact of the matter is in every battle they've had thus far Black Panther has been defeated by Captain America. ( Though I see each of their fights without merit due to the circumstances of their battles. ) I still believe their fights could have been better written in the past and that the character of Black Panther was seriously underwritten and underestimated as he has been for many years. Hopefully this latest installment of the series will prove otherwise and will bring T'Challa out in the forefront again giving him the credibility and adulation he deserves. While I personally agree that Captain America has the physical strength and durability over Black Panther I still don't believe he's a more intelligent fighter than Black Panther. It just doesn't fit the comparisons they been offered. Christopher Priest has written the character to be more than an " exceptional acrobat with cat-like skills " he's a superior fighter who's on PAR with even the likes of Captain America.

Capt.JK
Actually, I do agree. I would say that Cap and BP's physical attributes are pretty close to even. And I would also agree that BP's IQ is definitely higher. He's a tecnogenius; Cap isn't. And Cap has no energy projection of any kind, so if you have a point there, I'm missing what it is. I personally believe that Cap's physical qualities are slightly higher, because if you read the text (you may also check the recently released Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe), Cap's are slightly above BP. And Cap's fighting skills are far above BP.

WHICH IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT!

You did read the title, didn't you? Captain America VS Black Panther. Not Captain America vs Black Panther's bank accounts. Not Captain America vs Black Panther's SAT Scores. This thread is about who would win in a fight. CAP WINS.

Nathaniel Grey
The thread is about a one on one fight. It's about WHO'S the smarter fighter not necessarily who's stronger than who or who's got more skills than who. And I personally don't believe that Captain America is the more intelligent combatant. Black Panther in his own comics has always ( just like Captain America ) triumphed over adversity. And seeing as how Captain America is just about his physical superior I see T'Challa using his many resources ( weapons..etc ) to take down Cap. Black Panther is the SMARTER fighter. Period. It'd be a close fight and one that couldn't be called on a whim.

Capt.JK
All C.R.A.P. Captain America is the smarter FIGHTER. BP is BOOK smarter. On the playground, the better fighter wins. The one who has better skills at hand-to-hand wins. The one who is THE expert at hand-to-hand combat wins. Just because T'Challa can plot complicated socio-economic algorythms in his head does not make him a better fighter. Cap wins. EVEN BLACK PANTHER SAYS SO!

Let's recap:
Cap is THE better fighter. YOU even admit to it.
MARVEL admits to it.
BLACK PANTHER admits to it.
Hmmm... you seem to be alone in your misplaced confidences.
BP is smarter than Cap, but Cap is the smarter FIGHTER.

Cap wins.

Nathaniel Grey
Yes, Black Panther is " Book smarter " as well as battle savvy. All around his intellect and cunning add to his strategic abilities. Yes, Captain America is a supreme tactician on the field but seeing as how T'Challa commands his own personal army one can only assume that his own tactical expertise is just as potent as Caps. Cap the better fighter? I never said that. I said Captain America most likely had the advantage in strength and endurance. Black Panther saying that Cap was the better warrior? I've personally never read him saying so. Yes, he did say he was impressed with Captain America's skill and ability but now you're just embellishing that single quote you bring up. Black Panther is a KING and his personality would NEVER allow him to say such a thing. Marvel.Com? That site stated that his fight skill was ranked higher by two points. That's not a very large gap between them and by no means a final determining factor that would lead to Captain America overtly dominating a battle between them. You agree that Black Panther's intellect has dominion over Captain America's, correct? Then why wouldn't that also allow T'Challa to have a superior mind when it came to dealing with Rogers? Or devising tools and weapons that would easily allow him to turn the tide of the conflict? Or creating vastly superior BATTLE strategies when dealing with Cap. After all it takes a BOOK SMART warrior to devise great battle strategies. Some of the greatest battle tacticians are also Harvard GRADUATES and Black Panther makes them look like children.

Let's take another look at this battle that could happen. First, Captain America's shield would be ALL but useless against T'Challa. Seeing as how he KNOWS inside and out the properties of vibranium and vibranium alloys I doubt it'd take much for him to devise a way to rupture or ever destroy Caps shield. That's a FACT. The man has the scientific knowledge and resources to deal with Captain America's ONE and only weapon. Not to mention the FACT that his claws allow him to easily disrupt and break down metals INCLUDING adamantium and vibranium. Don't believe that? The writer who made his " anti-metal " claws ( Christopher J. Priest; Captain America & Falcon, Black Panther, The Crew ) wrote it to be that way. Maybe that isn't enough? Well Black Panther's suit is composed of a vibranium mesh. It SAPS any and ALL objects of their momentum rending them useless. If Cap tried to throw his shield or hit T'Challa with it there would be little to NO effect. PERIOD. There's NO way around that. It's written in stone. ( For the moment. ) So there -- Captain America's shield is rendered pretty much useless and is no longer a factor in the battle. And according to MARVEL.COM his skills in combination with his " one and only weapon " allow him to be one of the greatest combatants? Right?

That would leave Captain America with his greatly enhanced endurance ( metabolism & fatigue resistance ), strength, speed, agility as well as his legendary battle tactics and strategies, superior hand to hand combat skills, indomitable spirit. ( If I'm missing anything I know you'll inform me. )

versus

Black Panther's greatly enhanced endurance, strength, speed, agility ( all of which " Marvel.com " says Black Panther is on PAR with Captain America. ), tactical strategies, superior INTELLECT, superior hand to hand combat skills, indomitable spirit, vibranium mesh suit ( which absorbs any and all kinetic impact, unleashes an electromagnetic charge, cloaks via Black Panther issue #56, enhances his agility and durability, walk up walls and land from a 60 story drop. ), anti-metal claws, energy dagger ( which both stuns foes on contact and kills as well as fires off energy bolts ), glove implants which disperse an African nerve toxin able to take down several elephants via Black Panther mini series #1-4 as well as unleash a deadly energy plasm which slices through damn near anything via Black Panther #58.

Now with all of these technological weapons and gadgets I'm sure that Captain America CAN'T avoid every single one of them. The toxins though they wouldn't KILL him would certainly slow him down enough allowing Black Panther to take the advantage and kick the mess out of Cap. Hm. Or let's look at it another way. Captain America gets his hands on T'Challa and begins to pummel him all the while his blows are being sapped by the vibranium mesh suit T'Challa's wearing enough to allow him to stab Cap with one of his energy daggers or he could use the force of his vibranium boots to push himself off of Captain then allowing him to slash him with the claws or hit him with another dose of his toxins. Let's say that Captain never gets hit with the nerve toxin, that's a possibility. Black Panther could easily employ the use of his personal cloaking devise and beat the living crap out of Cap without him even seeing where the hits are coming from. Or wait here's another possibility. Black Panther decides that he wants to go toe to toe with Cap without using his many gadgets and Cap slips up and calls BP something out of context maybe " weak " or something insulting in Hausa -- then Black Panther takes off his gloves and decides he's going to break Roger's jaw like he did to Red Skull.

The point I'm trying to make is that Captain America isn't the end all be all for human combatants. Yes, he is a great fighter and is ONE OF the best. Just like T'Challa is ONE OF the best. But Cap isn't invulnerable nor is he untouchable when it comes to a scrap. As I see it you're just another Cap fanboy who just can't see your icon lose in a battle to an adversary that has all the qualification to take him down ( albeit an arduous and strenuous task. ) This battle would be all about who's the smarter and most CUNNING fighter. The one who can not only defeat his foe physically but mentally as well. Captain America as great as he is just doesn't match up to the sheer nerve, intellect and cunning that Black Panther represents. He's the SMARTER and more resourceful fighter. Captain America has the strength and the will but not the means to topple the Black Panther. BP WINS using his superior Intellect and unmatched cunning against Caps cowboy theatrics.

::rings the bell and walks away.::

Nathaniel Grey
P.S. I'm have a great debate with you on this topic. Keep'em coming man. I am sincerely having fun.


Just wanted add some things about BP's suit.

*energy dampening soles in his boots. Energy regulators create varying fields from the Vibranium in the molded soles of the boots, enabling Panther to survive a fall and land like a cat. Given enough momentum, Panther can also scale walls or walk on water, and the field can be also used offensively to shatter or weaken objects.

Capt.JK
Me too. I've got a couple of things to take care of, but I'll retort ASAP. Didn't want you to mistake my slow response as an inability to argue; I have a plethora of stuff to say.

Side note: Did you notice we're the only 2 on this thread now?

Havoc470
not anymore........sorry i just had to do it

im not gonna say anything though lol

Capt.JK
Hey, by all means, jump on in! (Unless you voted for Panther, then just mind your own business.) laughing

Havoc470
lol, nah i just dont wanna say anything because both of you prove good arguements and i have none to make on either character, i dont know too much on bp and know maybe a little more about cap

Nathaniel Grey
For the record I don't HATE Cap. He is probabaly one of the single greatest Marvel characters ever created. ( Mainstream Cap -- not Ultimate Cap who I just don't like. ) And he's way better than that two bit carbon copy U.S. Agent.

Nathaniel Grey
This fight would also be determined by the situation and location that both characters are thrust in. It makes you think for a moment what would be the circumstances which would enable either of these characters to gain a foot hold over the other.

For example...were this bout to take place within a jungle I doubt that would give Captain America any sort of advantage. Yes, Steve Rogers has traversed the world over and has been thrust into various climates and locations but do you seriously believe that he'd have a chance against a man who's back yard IS the jungle? Black Panther is one of the best warriors when it comes to overall guerrilla tactics. That's what his arts and abilities are based on. He attacks a foe when they're disillusioned or confused. He uses stealth and speed to take down even foes who propose to be greater than he is in strength and power. In the Black Panther mini series ( Black Panther #1-4 1988 ) T'Challa fought off and defeated 6 super powered beings ( more-so than Captain America ) known as the " Supremacist ". That is but one example of T'Challa using his stealth to subvert an opponent that underestimates him. Captain America admittedly would NEVER underestimate Black Panther which would allow him a greater advantage than those men he fought.

Then there's the " urban " jungle. Another place that both Captain America and Black Panther are extremely familiar with. Neither character is uniformed of the terrain when it comes to inner cities and what they have to offer but do you think Cap would have an advantage there? Possibly ...possibly not. Black Panther destroyed the economical status of the world in order to defeat Kilmonger and stop his country from being overrun. It lead to hundreds of thousands of men, women and children to lose their jobs, go homeless and starve and even DIE. Kilmonge, T'Challa's greatest foe even stated that he was more ruthless than any man he'd known. Do you think he'd hesitate to put an innocent in danger to put Cap to rest? I don't think so. He's always said throughout his comics that he would do whatever was NECESSARY to win regardless of the consequences. As much as I respect Cap he just doesn't have the same cut throat senses that T'Challa employs. And believe me -- even if he DID harm an Innocent he couldn't be convicted. He'd use his diplomatic immunity to over turn it. Many seem to forget that Black Panther is NOT a U.S. citizen nor does he have the same " values " that Western ideology posses. He's the King of an African nation in which brutality is often used to attend the means to an end. Captain America does NOT have that same mentality and it would ultimate lead to the possibility of his defeat.

Please do respond. I'm eager to hear what you think.

Nathaniel Grey
That quote is DIRECTLY from Marvel.com. Go on and take a look. Now according to Marvel.com the Red Skull is not that very far off from Captain America himself. They even apparently share the same type of body now. ( Seeing as how his body is a cloned version of Steve Roger's ). In Avengers #485 " Red Zone " Black Panther beat the living hell out of Red Skull with his bare hands and even managed to TEAR away the Red Skull's jaw with a punch. ( Not without getting a considerable beating himself. ) Now seeing that the Red Skull's body is the same as Captain America's and the Red Skull's strengths and super-soldier serum that is in his blood is the same as Captain America's that can only lead to the assumption that Black Panther has both the skill and ability to defeat Captain America. You see Marvel.Com also states that Red Skull though a step BELOW Captain America in hand to hand skill-- is twice the tactician he is and way smarter. So what does that say about Black Panther if he cracked Red Skull's jaw? Even with all the tactical genius in the world and " super soldier " strength serum in his veins ( Note; The same as Captain America's ) Red Skull STILL lost to Black Panther.

Ladies and gentlemen! I think we have a WINNER!

Capt.JK
Man, you are long-winded! But the fact still remains that Cap COULD and WOULD beat BP. Cap has defeated the Red Skull so many times you'd need a degree in mathematics to count them all, so I have no idea what your point was about that.
Secondly, you state that Marvel places Cap only 2 points above BP in fighting. Going back to our math lesson, we see that this is a point/level system based on a scale of 1 to 7. Marvel places Cap at 7 (that's the MAXIMUM level), and BP at only a 5. Therefore, Marvel.com states that Captain America's fighting prowess is 29% better than BP's. 29%!!! That's HUGE! Marvel.com (which YOU quoted), says that Cap is almost a THIRD better at fighting!
Also, your comments about Cap's shield not being able to stand up to BP's fancy gadgets is also crap. Marvel.com (again, which YOU quoted), describes Cap's shield as INDESTRUCTIBLE!!! Throughout the history of Captain America, his shield has ALWAYS been described as indestructible. Its Adamantium/Vibranium molecular bond can't even be duplicated. Full-force blows from the likes of Hulk and Thor couldn't dent it. Full-blast shots from Iron-Man's repulsors and Kree battleship ion-cannons couldn't hurt it. Magneto couldn't even figure it out! BP's fancy little "Panther-gadgets" wouldn't even scratch the paint!
And finally, your argument about BP putting innocents in danger is lame. First off, if BP had to resort to terrorist-style tactics to try and win, he's pathetic and has lost already. Secondly, Cap is a soldier. He has seen the horrors of the Nazi death camps and watched friends and innocents die in battle millions of times. If it came down to it, Cap would go after the greater good and beat the Black Panther if he showed himself to be a cowardly terrorist. And Cap HAS killed in the past. The only ones who think he is just a boy scout are the ones who've never read a Cap comic.
And before I allow you to retort, here's one more parting shot. You say BP fought off multiple foes in the past, more so than Cap. Again, check your history. Cap has fought in hundreds of battles against single and multiple foes, both normal and super-powered. Again, read a Cap comic or two before saying things that aren't true.

LADIES AND GENTLEMAN, WE HAVE A LOSER!!! And his name is... Black Panther.

CAP WINS!!!

Capt.JK
I noticed you used a B&W pic of Cap fighting the Black Panther for one of your posts. Well, that's not T'Challa in the pic, that's T'Chaka, his father. The pic comes from the cover of "Black Panther", vol. 2, #30, May 2001 (which I DO own), in which the story, entitled "First Contact: Wakanda 1941", takes place in the Wakandan jungles during WW2. However, if you open this book to pages 2 and 3, you will see a nice group of pics in which Cap faces off against BP after being ambushed from the trees on page 1. Not only does Cap direct the U.S. troops following him not to attack while he himself IS being attacked, he manages to reverse a garrot wrapped around his neck by T'Chaka and place the aforementioned Panther in a choke hold. BP then stands down from the fight.

What were you saying about not having a chance...?

CAP WINS!!!

lightaxe
Ok but remember BP has antimetal claws which break down vibranium and adamantium, therefore hed break the sheild, and btw the shield was dented by king thor. He hit it with moljnir and dented it which sent cap flying.

Capt.JK
Maybe you should read the previous posts about the INDESTRUCTIBILITY of Cap's shield, according to Marvel.com. And I wasn't referring to King Thor, just regular Thor.

And Black Panther is no Thor.

Cap wins.

Capt.JK
And while I'm irritated about the whole subject, Thor's hammer, the mighty Mjolnir, is made from enchanted Uru 'METAL'. Do you think the BP's wonderful new little "Inspector Gadget" anti-metal claws could affect Thor's hammer? Of course not. But in Avengers vs JLA, Thor and Superman both wonder and speak of the magnificense of Cap's shield.

Superman: "... And where can I get one of these shields - it's fantastic!"
Thor: "Enjoy it while thou canst, Superman. There is none other like it in all the worlds."

Is it really so hard for you Panther 'fanboys' to admit that Cap's shield is a lot more than just a 'piece of metal'?

BP's gadgets won't save him.

Cap wins.

Nathaniel Grey
I think I made my point pretty clear unless you're being overtly condescending? I wrote it out all there...and typed as " clearly " as possible.



Right and Marvel also put Red Skull's fighting ability at 6 and that did a lot of good for him when Black Panther knocked his bloody jaw out. So you see that gap really doesn't mean much that much. And if I'm not mistaken there have been numerous occasions in which Red Skull beat down Captain America...though that situation turned about with the aid of the Avengers & company. Indestructible? Hardly. Every comic and Marvel Encyclopedia states that his shield is nearly Indestructible. N e a r l y. And since we both agree that Black Panther is in fact " book smarter " then we know his knowledge of the properties of vibranium and vibranium alloys is unrivaled. He's a scientist and you can't likely state that he couldn't find a way around crippling Captain America's shield with effort. Come on now. The man is the first and foremost authority on the very substance that Caps shield is composed of. Saying that he wouldn't be able to break down the shield is like saying that Hank Pym never smacked the sh*t out of The Wasp. Besides I don't think I need to remind you of his " anti-metal" claws which break down all known metals. Apparently,according to a few sites ( Your favorite Marveldirectory.com ) the shield can be tampered with through its " molecular bonding " a feat that shouldn't be too difficult for a scientist of T'Challa's caliber especially since that's what his " anti-metal " claws do. They rip right through adamantium and vibranium. Magneto, Thor, Iron-man, Hulk? Which of these men are foremost authorities on vibranium and vibranium alloys? Which them them has a MOUND of vibranium in their backyards? Of course they couldn't penetrate it..vibranium is a mysterious substance to the majority of the world. There are FEW people who know a great deal about the metal and one of those few is T'Challa.



Lame? The point I was attempting to make was that Captain America above all else values life and he would NEVER endanger the lives of innocents even at the expense of his own. That unfortunately IS his weakness. Tactics are tactics. It's Black Panther's ability to remove himself from altruist which allows him to do what he has to do unlike Captain America. I'm not saying that Captain America is a fool for having such regard for life nor am I saying that Black Panther totally disregards it -- but I am saying that T'Challa knows for a fact that that's one of Captain America's short comings when facing a ruthless foe. Are you seriously going to tell me that Cap would cut down an " American " citizen just to get to Black Panther? That he'd willingly allow the death of even a single " American " citizen in order to take down a single foe in the middle of a one on one bout? Please -- get serious. Captain America doesn't have a RUTHLESS bone in his body. If someone took hostages Cap would without a doubt lay down his life for them without hesitation. I know it. You know it and BLACK PANTHER knows it.




I know my history and I know Captain America's feats and great exploits. Like I said. You're not the only one who collects Captain America/Avengers comics but I'm sure that while my collection for Captain America isn't as extensive as yours is....neither is your knowledge or collection of the RECENT Black Panther comic series. Everything you ever seem to have mentioned of him stems from the 70's to the late 80's version of the character. So I assume besides what you've read from a few scattered websites you have virtually little knowledge of the most current incarnation of Black Panther. What exactly did I say that wasn't true? I mean everything I've offered about Captain America's information is DIRECTLY from Marvel.Com, ( Your favorite ) MarvelDirectory.com and the various Captain America/Avengers and other comics that I have. Please if there's any information that you honestly believe that I've somehow forged please be specific. I'd like to know.

Ladies and Gentlemen! We have have a NEW heavy-weight CHAMP'PEEN of the Wooooooooorld! THE BLACK PANTHER

P.S. You never addressed any of the other contigencies that were lain out for Captain America. Panther's various gadgets would have no effect? I doubt it unless Captain America can hold his breath longer than Namor. Please respond to each in detail or submit. wink

Havoc470
QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt.JK
Superman: "... And where can I get one of these shields - it's fantastic!"
Thor: "Enjoy it while thou canst, Superman. There is none other like it in all the worlds."

Is it really so hard for you Panther 'fanboys' to admit that Cap's shield is a lot more than just a 'piece of metal'?

BP's gadgets won't save him.

Cap wins.
lol, you just have to type "cap wins" in every post

they really said that two eachother? they sound like two **** lol

(no offense to anyone)

Nathaniel Grey
Rofl. Every post I've ever seen him type in of Cap vs. whoever always ends in " Cap Wins! " " No one can beat Captain! ". And we're the fanboys? Last time I looked my Icon was that of Cable...not Black Panther. ::Chuckles.::

Capt.JK
I think several years ago I typed something about Cap would lose to the Hulk, but I had a very high fever at the time and was delirious, so of course I was wrong about that one.

Oh yeah... Cap wins.
(I'll retort in a few.)

Nathaniel Grey
ROFLMAO! Hey, atleast you're consistant and loyal to your character. I'll give you that much. I'm just glad you're a Cap fan and not a U.S. Agent fanboy -- then I'd have to hurt you.

lightaxe
lol, yea your a major fanboy, but at least you admit it.

ScarletSpider
When Walker's written well, I really like him, otherwise he's a standoffish prick with a military hardon.

Nathaniel Grey
He's better now with the New Invaders then he was when he was attempting to replace Cap. But yeah, he's always been a son of a b*tch with a warped sense of patriotism. Walker frightens me at times -- he reminds of those low brow country rednecks ready to kill anything and everything that moves.

ScarletSpider
He was pretty good in what I've read of WCA and Force Works. Wow, the Works, anyone besides me remember that? haha

Capt.JK
I've got a Cap book in my collection that has Cap and USAgent getting into a shouting match, and somewhere in it Cap calls Walker a 'Redneck'. Very funny stuff.

Nathaniel Grey
Red Skull basically represents every physical attribute and skill that Captain America himself posesses. From his very genetic make up to the super solider serum in his body ( ie; heightened strength, speed, agility, endurance, tactical know how. ) the Skull is like a MOLD of what Captain America is in raw physical prowess. If the Black Panther was able to beat the Red Skull -- then what's stopping him from beating Captain America? And I remind you that Black Panther defeated Skull without any of his " gadgets ". It was a hand to hand brawl in which Panther went toe to toe with him. ( And he did get pummeled while attempting to do so. ) Now think if he HAD used his technological devices? Do you think Skull would have had even a flicker of a chance? Now think about it for a moment and then think of Captain America...because Cap and Skull physically are EXACTLY the same. And this is according to Marvel.com. The only acceptions are that Red Skull is way smarter than Cap and Captain America has slightly better fighting skill. Otherwise physically they're nearly identical. You can't make that kind of comparison with any of T'Challa's foes because none of them are said to be his " duplicate " in any manner.

Irish Wolverine
I always thought it was kind of weird that they gave a black guy the name Black Panther. Maybe that's just me...

How could Cap beat the Hulk? If they've fought before and Cap has won, I'm going to be pissed, because that would be the worst writing ever.

Havoc470
i dont think its wierd, black panther is a native animal to africa, which makes sense that a black guy took up the panther, especially with spiritual tribes, i mean a white guy in the black panther suit would be completely wierd to me, and although it sort of goes along with the black panther party its either just coincidence or someone wanted people making that connection, after all its just the name of an animal

Nathaniel Grey
Black Panther is declared the victor by superior intellect. ::Rings bell.::

lifeisaglich
This is what I have noticed about panther when he fights people who are obviously more powerful than he is, he prepares for them but if the person he is fighting is close to his level he tends to want to fight them and show that he is Superior because of his panther like abilities. This the kind of attitude that he is going to take when he fights the capt. But it will not be good enough.

The reasoning for this he never stops referring to himself as my panther this or that.

Capt.JK
This is probably one of the MAIN reasons I don't like his books. He comes across as a holyer-than-thou pompous ass who's always preaching about how great Wakanda is, yet he never stays over there. Cap preaches too sometimes, but at least I'm an American, so I can relate. And BP is a lot like Bat Man in that if he has time to prepare, he would have a good chance at beating Cap, but in a spur-of-the-moment one-on-one, all he has is what he's got with him, and that ain't going to be enough to defeat Captain America.

And since a certain BP 'fanboy' (who shall remain nameless Nathaniel Grey) keeps referring to BP's anti-metal claws, let's talk about that. One, in all entries about Cap, the 'nearly' indestructible part they refer to is the separation of the molecular bond by a thermo-nuclear detonation at ground zero. I don't think BP carries that around with him in his li'l utility belt. And Cap's shield is NOT made of Vibranium, it is made of an Adamantium/Vibranium composite that even the guys who created it can't figure out how to duplicate. So, unless Cap is going to hand his shield over to BP and give the 'genius' a few years to analyze its molecular structure to figure out how to deal with it, I don't see how he's going to keep from getting it 'SPANGED' upside his head by Cap.

AND, if we're allowing BP some latitude to prepare for Cap, then Cap gets the same. I'm sure we can all agree that Cap is the better fighter, so that being understood, we can agree that Cap would indeed 'know' his opponent. Contrary to the rantings of a certain BP 'fanboy', Cap DID help Panther enhance his fighting abilities, so Cap is aware of how BP fights and what his tools consist of. Therefore, Cap chooses to bring the gauntlet with the built-in shield made of solid compressed ions, his 'energy shield', and he'll 'SPANG' THAT upside BP's head instead, just like he did in "Contest of Champions II", where Cap defeated Panther in just a couple of pages.

And the whole Red Skull thing is a dead issue, because Cap has beaten Red Skull in every match-up they've ever had, except for the time Skull had the Power Armor and Cap had just been 'surprized' by having his apartment blow up in his face and seeing Diamondback's dead body laying at Skull's feet. Hell, Cap even beat Red Skull while he was holding the Cosmic Cube!

Your arguments are weak, Nathaniel Grey.

Cap wins.

Havoc470
im american too, and i dont understand most of the crap cap says, he's a leader amongst teams but he's always taking orders and does them no matter what, he's a cool character but i like bp better and i know wayy more about cap than bp, i cant relate to most of captain americas statements but i do like most of black panthers statements, after all he comes from a land that has a history of being raped by america

i think nathaniels arguements are strong, usually after i read your posts im all for cap, then after i read some of nathaniels argument i change my mind yet again, for now bp would win imo

Capt.JK
Oh ye of little faith, what has happened to you?

el barto
Cap has beaten BP before, but i think BP would pull it of laughing out loud

Nathaniel Grey
Holier than thou? The Black Panther is a warrior King in a long line of warrior Kings. Emphasis on King. What do you expect from him? His role in the nation of Wakanda is both of a political and spiritual nature. He's like the blasted POPE in Wakanda, people seek him out not only as a political leader but as a spiritual and religious leader. ( IE; Black Panther was the Chieftain of the Panther Cult. ) So yes, he is considered " holier than thou " within his nation. He has always had to be held at higher standards than those around him simply because of his birthright. I believe even the good Captain to an extent realizes the burden that T'Challa must carry.

Black Panther bolstering on about Wakanda? What Black Panther comics have you been reading? Though Black Panther does have great love for his country he isn't as obsessed with patriotism as some red, white and blue boy scouts who shall remain nameless ( ::Coughs:: Captain America! ). So don't even compare him in that respect to a man who's every pair of boxer shorts is red, white and blue. You banter on about how you can't understand how Black Panther has love for his nation and yet turn around and state how you understand how Cap can love his? What's the bloody difference? Black Panther LOVES his people. Captain America LOVES his people. What's so difficult to grasp there? ( For the record, Wakanda is a MAKE believe African nation. )

Black Panther doesn't NEED time to " prepare " with Captain America. He's had over 2 decades of preparation to deal with Cap. Need I remind you when he initially JOINED the Avengers he did so as a SPY to see the threat that they posed against Wakandan National security? He's had PLENTY of time to learn well all of Caps strengths and weaknesses. So unlike Batman, prep-time is an unnecessary factor. T'Challa knows Rogers like the back of a Rhino's nut sack and will slap him down just like one too.




I never said his shield was merely " vibranium ". I've always said it was an adamantium/vibranium alloy. You should read my posts closer then you'd realize that I was correct in many of my conclusions. wink I personally don't see what you don't get about the concept of " anti-metal " claws. Allow me to break it down to you so that even you can understand it my friend. " Anti " as in counteracting, neutralizing and or destroying. And metal as in any of a category of electro positive elements that usually have a shiny surface, are generally good conductors of heat and electricity, and can be melted or fused, hammered into thin sheets. Now if you put it all together I think it pretty much breaks down what the Black Panther's claws can do to Caps shield

Again. It's been a better part of two decades and I'm sure by NOW Black Panther has a pretty good idea of what Captain America's shield is possible of as well as its elements. Why ELSE would he have anti-metal claws? Hm? Maybe just for decoration? And for the record -- unlike Captain America -- the Black Panther has DRASTICALLY changed since his Avengers days of " cat-like skills " and " superior tumbling abilities. " So Cap is in for many surprises when he goes against the Cat-Man.



I pretty much made the preptime issue a mute point since Black Panther already knows the tendencies of the good Captain. But! Since we're looking at all points of view lets see what Cap knows about T'Challa besides the fact that he's a " black " guy in a kitty cat costume. Oh wait...that's right...T'Challa's been an inactive Avenger for a LONG time, right? So he's been developing behind the closed doors of Wakanda into the character that Christopher J. Priest created while Captain America is virtually the same guys he's been since the Avengers thawed him out. But then I'm sure Cap is well informed. In all seriousness I'm sure he's got a clue about a few of T'Challa's advancements -- oh wait...that's right. T'Challa doesn't tell anyone anything. He's secretive at all times and lets those around him know what he wants them to...no more no less. Captain America using his energy shield? That's plausible except for the fact that he'd NEVER use it while he had his original shield. NEVER. If I know anything about Captain America it's that he's traditional and has a GREAT sentimental hold on his original shield. You can't have it both ways man....only the Black Panther can do that. wink



How is it a dead issue? Are you denying that Red Skull is genetically identical to Captain America? Marvel doesn't. Are you denying that the EXACT SAME super soldier serum that runs through Red Skull's veins is the very same as the serum in Caps blood? Marvel doesn't. Yes, Red Skull does often " surprise " his foes when fighting them but that's what Black Panther's tactics always entail. You see he's not only the Chieftain of the Panther clan but he fights like one too. Black Panther uses guerrilla warfare to take down foes that prove to be physically superior in strength. Captain America is stronger, yes. I don't deny that but do you seriously think for a moment that BP is going to STAND there and let Cap pummel him? While Cap has the superior strength -- T'Challa has the superior speed and mobility. Captain America's speed in comparison to T'Challa's enhanced speed and his vibrabnium mesh suit can't compare. His mobility plus strength, plus " gadgets " spells certain doom for the good Captain.



Weak? Hardly. My points are finer than a victoria's secret model and sharper than a ginsu knife. My words and logic crush you into dust.
WooooooOoOosssssshhh!

Captain America 8 || Black Panther 10.

Capt.JK
Here we go again.

Yes, I do realize that Wakanda is a fake country. Let's not be TOO condescending. My point is that I can't relate to him. His whole monarchy thing is not the way true Americans think (which is probably why I like Cap so much), and to hear him prattle on and on about "my throne this" and "my kingdom that" gets a bit tedious and boring (for me). Another reason I like Cap is that he does not perceive himself as any more important than anyone else. I'm sure Cap does appreciate the responsibilities of BP's office, just as he does the President's, but it doesn't mean that I have to give a crap.

Secondly, I never said that you stated his shield was ONLY made of Vibranium, but you have expounded quite thoroughly upon the subject of BP's extensive knowledge of the material. What you continuously gloss over though is that Cap's shield is, for lack of a better word, "special"; "one-of-a-kind"; "there can be only one". The properties of his shield have never been accurately duplicated, so knowing "what Cap's shield can do" does not give BP the knowledge he would need to damage it. He has nothing to compare his data against, no control to test his theories on.

Thirdly, you seem to think that BP is the only one with access to an extensive intelligence network. Cap has the highest level of security clearance available, and is a close friend of Nick Fury, the Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. How can you think Cap is unable to keep appraised of the goings on behind the curtain of T'Challa and Wakanda's secrecy?

Also, You refer to Marvel.com. Well, they list Cap's speed as equal to BP's. And I can't find a single reference anywhere that states Black Panther is equal to Cap in ANY physical attribute. Captain America is the penultimate of human excellence. Black Panther is a close second. And second place doesn't win the gold.

And yes, I DO consider the Red Skull argument a dead issue. Cap has beaten him hundreds of times, when he was FAR more powerful than when Panther fought him, so to say that BP beat someone who was physically superior to him is indeed a feather in his cap, but the Red Skull IS NOT Captain America! Cap put a huge beat down on Man-Ape, who totally creamed BP AND the Avengers. But that has little to do with this fight.

From the beginning, your arguments tended to jump off focus (politics, economical power, etc.), but the point is Cap IS physically superior. Cap IS a better hand-to-hand fighter. Cap IS a better tactician. Cap HAS beaten him in the past.

Cap wins.

Uhhh... WHOOOOOOOSSSHHHHH!
Cap won. Panther ZERO.

*Keep 'em coming, man. This is the best fight on the forum.*

Nathaniel Grey
It's the best debate on the forum because we're both relentless and unyielding in our views. I doubt that situation will EVER change but believe it when I say I do appreciate your views and your vigilance with our deliberations. And you best believe I WILL respond in full force later -- when I've had a few drinks in me. Unlike Cap I prefer a nice single malt Scotch to Milk. ( I'm young but I do have taste. wink ) :: Salute. ::

Havoc470
i thought this was a cool pic, sorry for the crappy quality i have my scanner stowed away somewhere and all i have is a crappy digital camera lol

http://tinypic.com/prq1h

Nathaniel Grey
Nice, man. Very nice.

Captain America
Cap all the way. Panther is good though.

Capt.JK
FINALLY! I thought I was the only intelligent one out there!

Nathaniel Grey
No. This just proves you're not the only Captain America FANBOY out there. So what? We're not " intelligent " because we don't believe that Captain America can beat everyone? That's very un-American of you to say -- wait no it isn't. Nm. wink

Havoc470
lol, its so funny when someone named after their favorite character comes in and says "he wins" and thats it

cap. JK if you havent read ultimates 2 #1 i suggest you do, its amazing, at least check out the first few pages

Captain America
I doesnt matter I am a cap fan, the fight could go either way. Panther is an excellent Hero.

Havoc470
in my last post i wasnt really referring to you, i meant that it happens in other topics and its funny

from JK's and grey's arguments i go with black panther, it would be a great fight to see and hopefully we will see one, although i doubt theres going to be a winner, some enemy would most likely end up interfering or something

Nathaniel Grey
That's what occured in the many other fights they've had. Something else interfers and no CLEAR winner is dubbed. But I suppose that's how it ought to be. Wow Captain America just inspires such good will amongst us. wink

supremthor
I just went to http://marvel.com/universe/index.htm and its like Captain America....why dont i show it.

Captain America

Intelligence=level 3
Strength=level 3
speed=level 2
durability=level 3
energy protection=level 1
FIGHTING=level 7+

Black Panther

Intelligence=level 5
Strength=level 3
speed=level 2
durability=level 3
energy protection=level 3
FIGHTING=level 5

supremthor
so cap is ONLY a better fighter but panther is smarter

supremthor
I just went to http://marvel.com/universe/index.htm and its like Captain America....why dont i show it.

Captain America

Intelligence=level 3
Strength=level 3
speed=level 2
durability=level 3
energy protection=level 1
FIGHTING=level 7+

Black Panther

Intelligence=level 5
Strength=level 3
speed=level 2
durability=level 3
energy protection=level 3
FIGHTING=level 5

Capt.JK
Uh oh. Don't look now, Nathaniel Grey, but Cap is winning the poll. I told you not to count out the Red, White and Blue.

Cap wins.

Nathaniel Grey
Rofl. You're an admitted fanboy. I've already won this fight as I see it. wink Your views as such don't allow you to believe that anyone but Cap could win this fight. Even if I stated that Black Panther was invulnerable and immoveable you'd still scream that Captain America could take him. This is done. Lol.

Irish Wolverine
Hulk Wins.

Nathaniel Grey
http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22839

It's funny. In this interview by NEWSARAMA with Reggie Hudlin who's going to be the up coming writer for Black Panther he states that Black Panther is richer than Tony Stark, richer than BATMAN and tougher than Captain America in hand to hand fighting. I mean if a writer says that you really can't dispute it. After all he's writing the comic now. Seems like he knows who'd win between Captain America and Black Panther. You know...him being a Marvel writer and all. wink

Havoc470
reggie hudlin is awesome, i cant wait till BP #1

ScarletSpider
He's very passionate about the character, which is a huge plus, and him being a Priest fan cements the deal for me. I can't wait either.

Nathaniel Grey
I'm just glad he said he's going to be adding and working from what Priest already established. I mean if that isn't a confidence builder I don't know what is.

MatchesMalone
Physically these two are almost identical. But, I think Panther should win due to his suit and equipment.

supremthor
very true

Capt.JK
Dude, he's the new writer for the Black Panther comic. What do you expect him to say?

"Uh, yeah... see... Black Panther is... like, poor... and uh... like, lots of people could whip his ass... uh, wait. Can we start this interview over?"

You can't POSSIBLY be that naive. Of course he's going to say lots of positive things about the character. He would probably like to keep his job. But notice how he picked CAP to compare his fighting skills to. Hmmm...

Face it, fanboy; Cap wins.

Nathaniel Grey
The same thing I expect Captain America writers to say. That their character is the greatest and most innovative rendition ever bestowed upon the eyes of their comic book reading audience. Black Panther has always been viewed by the majority of the comic book reading community as a second string character in a cat suit. Naive? Are you asking me do I believe it's naive that with some exceptional writing and character development that Black Panther can be give as much importance and recognition as Spider-Man, Wolverine and Captain America? That he can also be considered to be one of the greatest warriors known and even surpass that of Captain America? Then my answer is yes. I am naive. But I believe that it's even more naive to have no doubts about a comic books character's ability to falter. Black Panther isn't a god nor is he considered a super-powered being but in a battle against Captain America he'd win 5 times out of 10 and likewise for Cap.

If we disregard what this writer is stating about what he's planning for Panther why not just disregard the gentlemen who decided to make Captain America's shield of an unbreakable alloy? Or the gentlemen who decided that Captain America was going to be the pinnacle of human strength and so forth. Why don't we ignore those writers? Does Reginald Hudlin have any less merit because he's new to the scene? I'm sure at one time when Captain America's writers began they were new and their ideas were met with some scrutiny. Yes, he picked Captain America to compare his skills to so you should be flattered. But to say what you said about him just wanting to " keep his job ". I think that can go ALL around the board for every writer ever known. But you see for this character who's had little exposure to the mainstream reader it's more than him just writing to keep his job. He's pouring a lot of emotion and strength into a character that he can relate to but VERY few can. Few writers have been able to capture the true essence of what the Black Panther is and have dulled him down because he was considered to be a lower tier character. But thanks to ( Chris Priest ), Joe Quesada, Reginald Hudlin and John Romita Jr. the character will be displayed with the respect he deserves as a front line character. And yes, he'll be tougher than Captain America in hand to hand fighting. It's a new day...accept it. Btw. Buy BLACK PANTHER#1 February 2005.

I think everyone has already established our views in this debate. But you calling me a fanboy? Heh. The pot calling the kettle black, homie.

Nathaniel Grey
Interesting.

Nathaniel Grey
I just found this funny. If you look on the Black Panther Message board -- there's a female Black Panther! I about died laughing. But she actually looks amazing. Check it out.

Nathaniel Grey
But the man definately gets the respect he deserves. :: Salutes Cap. ::

lifeisaglich
Exactly this is the most smartest thing that has been said after reading what Hudlin wrote. Black panther tougher than Captain America(interesting choice of words). But please for crying out loud. Lets just stop the silly talk. And him being richer than Bruce Wayne. This particular subject is still subject for debate. Black panther gets rich from a cave with rare minerals (only found on wakanda by selling it to different countries all over the world. But the Wayne Enterprise has its hands in every part of the globe (ask Donald Trump: you have a multi billion dollar company what do you do?) the answer you spread like hell (and turn your multi billion dollar company into something even bigger.) See what I meanwink.

(Black Panther comes from a society where scientifically is beyond Reed Richards.) NO TECHNOLOGY IS BEYOND REED RICHARDS Wakanda society more scientific than any country yes but against reed richardsconfused.



As for the Merit thing compared to Stand Lee Yes. Hudlin has no merit.
I do believe that the creator of Captain America is Stand Lee (Since way back when). Unfortunately for you he did not give him superpowers but he did give him peak human form and an unbreakable shield. The reason the creator is stand lee. Captain was not meet with scrutiny since as he was fighting the Nazi and first made his first appearance during I think World War 1 or World War 2. If anything else people welcome him. Anything short of a w..h..o..r..a..h would have been considered unpatriotic. And boy.... you do not what to be branded unpatriotic during those days.

Havoc470
captain america was created by joe simon and jack kirby......stan lee created black panther.........

supremthor
jack kirby the greatest of all time

Havoc470
very true, he of course took part in drawing black panther

lifeisaglich
well this sure shut me up (for a moment) but what I said still stands but only switch the name of stand lee to Joe simon and Jack Kirby (I thought these guys where just writers did think they had a hand in creating Captain America).

Havoc470
i just wanted to state who actually created captain america, but yeah all you have to do is switch the names and it makes sense

i think hudlins opinion on who would win is just that, his opinion.....others would say cap wins

imo black panther wins, im a huge cap fan but i liked nathaniels arguements and both characters past confrontations lean me towards bp winning

Capt.JK
~Capt.JK sniffles as he holds back a tear.~ bawling

Finally. Mr. Kirby wouldn't want us to fight like this. Let's just stop this madness and start a Captain America AND the Black Panther vs. Spider-Man thread. drunk

Havoc470
lol, i like that idea

lets pair them against other characters!!!!!

Nathaniel Grey
The man has economical sway over the world like you wouldn't believe. He's got Wakanda's hand in every business throughout the world ( Much like Namor. ) which is what allowed him to throw the global market into chaos. He literally crippled all economic activity in the Marvel Universe with a single call. Plus you have to understand that he's the King of a country. That by DEFAULT states that he's got more money than Wayne or Stark and possibly more than them combined. They can't compete with that. Wakanda is one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world. A single persons wealth can hardly compete with a nations wealth. ( Unless you're Bill Gates. ) At a time he even bought out STARK Enterprises. I think Hudlins comment there wasn't unjustified at all.

Tougher? Yes, I'd say he is tougher. A more skilled hand to hand fight? Probably not. But that's not what Hudlin said. What's the definition of " tougher "? Here's a few.
Tough;
1 a : strong or firm in texture but flexible and not brittle.
2 : characterized by severity or uncompromising determination
3 : capable of enduring strain, hardship, or severe labor
4 : very hard to influence : STUBBORN
5 : difficult to accomplish, resolve, endure, or deal with <a tough question> <tough luck>
6 : stubbornly fought <a tough contest>
7 : UNRULY, ROWDYISH
8 : marked by absence of softness or sentimentality

Yes, Captain America fits many of those descriptions without a doubt. But after reading Black Panther -- he fits them ALL. Captain America possesses great sentimentality....unlike T'Challa. Captain America is influenced by the American Government. He basically follows their every order ( though with a grain of salt )...unlike T'Challa who follows his own mandates. Think about it for a moment. Who fits every characteristic here?

Smarter than Reed? That was going a bit far. But! He does posses greater resources than Richards which allots his research and development groups to go farther than he could. Let's face it....Reed is hindered by U.S. laws and the amount of money in his wallet. Had he the right resources no one could touch the man. But he doesn't. T'Challa isn't hindered by western philosophies and his wallet would crush Iron Man. He can pretty much do whatever it is he wishes. But yes, no one can touch Reed in over all intelligence.

I was referring to the writers after the initial creation of Captain America. I'm sure well after Joe Simons and Jack Kirby's time the character has grown and developed a bit since his days with a steel shield. ( Correct me if I'm wrong but he wasn't given the adamantium/vibranium shield until much later. ) Writers have added and subtracted a great deal of abilities and powers that he might have had. ( Ie; Superman use to just leap and not fly. And was given an " aura " to explain how his identity was hidden and so forth ) Shall we ignore all of that? No. I don't think so. Reggie Hudlin is molding Black Panther for a new generation and his views on the characters development are just as rational and solid as any other writer who's developed an established character. I think it's only fair that BP be given the same presence as other more prominent Marvel characters since he's been ignored for quite some time. It's quite a step up from characters such as " White Wash " during the 1940's. Look him up if you don't know who he is.

In conclusion....let's have Captain America and Black Panther beat down Batman. wink

Capt.JK
THAT would be considered a homicide.

And yes, Cap's first shield (the triangular one) was made of reinforced steel with a set of simple leather straps. The Adamantium/Vibranium shield was added many issues later. There were actually many models of the round shield. Tony Stark designed several versions:
1) A magnetic version with magnets located inside the shield and Cap's gauntlet. Cap didn't like it because he couldn't control the return.
2) An all Adamantium version, which was far stronger than his steel shield but was too light. Cap felt he couldn't control the ricochet or the bounce as well as he could a heavier version.
3) His current shield was "accidentally" developed when the Adamantium and Vibranium being used in its construction "molecularly bonded" in a way that could not be duplicated or separated. Cap accepted it and said it was the most perfect version he had ever carried.

Supposedly, you can tell when this occurred because the first round shield had a blue border on the outside, while the shield he carries now has a red border. That's the "super-shield" he still carries today.

Nathaniel Grey
When exactly was it introduced? ( The adamantium/vibranium alloy shield ). I always assumed it was during the early to mid 60's that he got that shield. It had to have been around the same time as the Black Panther's introduction.

Nathaniel Grey
Oh and just for fun... Whatever you SAY Cap! WHATEVER you say! :: Salutes. :: wink

Capt.JK
He got his current shield shortly after he was thawed out by the Avengers in issue #4 in 1964.

Nice pic, btw, but that refers to 9/11, not some second-rate pussycat. "Just for fun".

Havoc470
that penciler did a good job at drawing cap

is it metaphorical, like america got beat on 9/11, or is it just captain america getting owned by normal humans......if so then the "Second-rate pussy cat" definitely wins, lol

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