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Fight takes place in the Roman Colosseum

Ozy wins. He's just simply better.

Ozy wins without too much trouble

Winter Soldier punches his face in.

Originally posted by Mindset
Winter Soldier punches his face in. I'll fkn rek u m8

WS was fighting Cap pretty evenly and in the CW trailer hes taking on Ironman. Both those foes are greater than Ozy.

WS takes the majority.

We don't know the context of Iron Man fight yet.

Originally posted by playa1258
We don't know the context of Iron Man fight yet.

Well fighting Cap evenly shows he is on Caps level or at least close to it. And Cap >>>> Ozy.

And true that we dont know the context of the Ironman fight but we do see Buckys punches are strong enough to send Ironman flying back a bit. Plus punch holes in streets .
Ozy has no durability feats. One punch from bucky and he would be done for.

Ozy.

Really good match.

Leaning towards Ozy.

Originally posted by Mindset
Winter Soldier punches his face in.

Listen to this man he knows what he is talking about.

It's a tough match that's for sure. Leaning towards WS simply because Ozy has never fought a superhuman opponent before, therefore it was easy for him to look good as he only fought opponents below him.

Edit: Just rewatched Ozy's fights against Comedian and Nightowl and I'm definitely taking WS's corner in this. Though the skill difference was quite huge between Ozy vs. Comedian/Nightowl/Roscharch, his opponents were able to take multiple hits before finally going down. I don't see any high end human fighter taking that many hits from WS before going down. I'm pretty sure WS would have put Comedian out with fewer hits than Ozy did.

I'd give a majority to Winter Soldier, though this would be a hard fight for both sides.

Ozy (the movie version) described on the Watchmen Wiki. Haven't seen the movie in a while so I had to look him up to try and remember his feats. Based on this, he can take WS.

"With most superheroes being depicted to having superhuman strength and fighting abilities, he is portrayed as the most physically powerful. He is able to lift men as large as the Comedian above his head with both hands and send people flying through the air several feet with his attacks, usually with enough force to crack stone and dent metal. An attack from him could greatly injury a person, almost like being struck by a vehicle, to the point where it may be fatal. Someone sent flying into a structure by him would impact it with enough force to damage it, even if it where dense stone. He is able to smash through stone and solid wooden tables with one punch. This causes his attacks to be heavily weakening and debilitating to anyone he fought, including the Comedian, Nite Owl II, and Rorschach, all of whom are also portrayed with similar strength and physical prowess. He was also barely fazed when repeatedly punched by Nite Owl II, showing no pain or discomfort, as it he did not even feel the attacks. He also showed no pain when he had a bullet lodged into his hand when he caught it as it was being shot at him. He also had great speed, enough to catch a butcher knife at point blank range, dodged gunfire by running and with acrobatics, and moved his hand into the path of a bullet at point blank range, lodging it in his palm."

I wouldn't base a decision on a wiki entry, especially one that sounds like it was written by a 10-year-old.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Ozy (the movie version) described on the Watchmen Wiki. Haven't seen the movie in a while so I had to look him up to try and remember his feats. Based on this, he can take WS.

"With most superheroes being depicted to having superhuman strength and fighting abilities, he is portrayed as the most physically powerful. He is able to lift men as large as the Comedian above his head with both hands and send people flying through the air several feet with his attacks, usually with enough force to crack stone and dent metal. An attack from him could greatly injury a person, almost like being struck by a vehicle, to the point where it may be fatal. Someone sent flying into a structure by him would impact it with enough force to damage it, even if it where dense stone. He is able to smash through stone and solid wooden tables with one punch. This causes his attacks to be heavily weakening and debilitating to anyone he fought, including the Comedian, Nite Owl II, and Rorschach, all of whom are also portrayed with similar strength and physical prowess. He was also barely fazed when repeatedly punched by Nite Owl II, showing no pain or discomfort, as it he did not even feel the attacks. He also showed no pain when he had a bullet lodged into his hand when he caught it as it was being shot at him. He also had great speed, enough to catch a butcher knife at point blank range, dodged gunfire by running and with acrobatics, and moved his hand into the path of a bullet at point blank range, lodging it in his palm."


That is all accurate, but nothing indicates a sure win.

Regarding his speed feats:

1. Bullet catch is more timing and coordination than superspeed.

2. Dodged gunfire was aim dodging.

> Also the assassin was hired by him and may or may not have been really trying to kill him.

> He was completely ready to put on a show, poison capsule at the ready, etc.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Ozy (the movie version) described on the Watchmen Wiki. Haven't seen the movie in a while so I had to look him up to try and remember his feats. Based on this, he can take WS.

"With most superheroes being depicted to having superhuman strength and fighting abilities, he is portrayed as the most physically powerful. He is able to lift men as large as the Comedian above his head with both hands and send people flying through the air several feet with his attacks, usually with enough force to crack stone and dent metal. An attack from him could greatly injury a person, almost like being struck by a vehicle, to the point where it may be fatal. Someone sent flying into a structure by him would impact it with enough force to damage it, even if it where dense stone. He is able to smash through stone and solid wooden tables with one punch. This causes his attacks to be heavily weakening and debilitating to anyone he fought, including the Comedian, Nite Owl II, and Rorschach, all of whom are also portrayed with similar strength and physical prowess. He was also barely fazed when repeatedly punched by Nite Owl II, showing no pain or discomfort, as it he did not even feel the attacks. He also showed no pain when he had a bullet lodged into his hand when he caught it as it was being shot at him. He also had great speed, enough to catch a butcher knife at point blank range, dodged gunfire by running and with acrobatics, and moved his hand into the path of a bullet at point blank range, lodging it in his palm."

I question the accuracy of this wiki post. I mean, saying something like "With most superheroes being depicted to having superhuman strength and fighting abilities, he is portrayed as the most physically powerful." - that's highly ambiguous. Superhuman strength can go from someone like Marv to someone like Hulk. I don't think Ozymandias being "the most physically powerful" means he's stronger than Hulk or even Spiderman.

But based on screen feats, Cap is stronger than Ozy, or at least had better strength feats.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ozy has never fought a superhuman opponent before, therefore it was easy for him to look good as he only fought opponents below him.

Was going to say something similar.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I wouldn't base a decision on a wiki entry, especially one that sounds like it was written by a 10-year-old.

I'm pretty sure I can sloppily write something up describing Bucky's abilities the same way that would make it seem Bucky could take on Thor.

Originally posted by FrothByte
It's a tough match that's for sure. Leaning towards WS simply because Ozy has never fought a superhuman opponent before, therefore it was easy for him to look good as he only fought opponents below him.

Edit: Just rewatched Ozy's fights against Comedian and Nightowl and I'm definitely taking WS's corner in this. Though the skill difference was quite huge between Ozy vs. Comedian/Nightowl/Roscharch, his opponents were able to take multiple hits before finally going down. I don't see any high end human fighter taking that many hits from WS before going down. I'm pretty sure WS would have put Comedian out with fewer hits than Ozy did.

We've been over this before, they were above human... they displayed super-human feats. Sure not always, but they do have some. Ozy treated them as if they were nothing.

Did you miss the part where Ozy was LITERALLY toying with them every single moment of that fight. He was hardly trying, and casually tooling them. I don't believe you re-watched the scene if you just described it as such.

Originally posted by Placidity
That is all accurate, but nothing indicates a sure win.

Regarding his speed feats:

1. Bullet catch is more timing and coordination than superspeed.

2. Dodged gunfire was aim dodging.

> Also the assassin was hired by him and may or may not have been really trying to kill him.

> He was completely ready to put on a show, poison capsule at the ready, etc.

Um no, just no. It does take superspeed, and to even say it doesn't is flat out being disingenuous. His reactions are above anything WS every showed in ANY scene.

Now its aim dodging lol. Okay bud. Right.

He's simply more skilled than WS and would make him look pretty bad throughout most of the fight. WS durability keeps him in the fight, but he's outclassed here.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We've been over this before, they were above human... they displayed super-human feats. Sure not always, but they do have some. Ozy treated them as if they were nothing.

Did you miss the part where Ozy was LITERALLY toying with them every single moment of that fight. He was hardly trying, and casually tooling them. I don't believe you re-watched the scene if you just described it as such.

In the Nightowl vs. Black Widow thread, most people here considered them somewhat similar in stats. BW was completely disadvantaged against WS. At least Night Owl and Comedian did better against Ozy.

WS was shown to be near Cap level and by feats Cap >>>> Ozy.

WS wins.

Only problem is, Cap, only using FA and WS, was not above Ozy. Let alone >>> that you implied. They were very much even, and even the vs. thread matching them was close in voting. As of OofU... Cap had even better feats that would put him above Ozy... but he wasn't there as of WS. If WS lost to Cap... and Ozy is near Cap as of the WS... WS also goes down.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In the Nightowl vs. Black Widow thread, most people here considered them somewhat similar in stats. BW was completely disadvantaged against WS. At least Night Owl and Comedian did better against Ozy.

Only Night Owl and Comedian are stronger and more durable than BW... Which would explain how they were able to last longer.

By feats Cap > Ozy and WS was able to fight Cap on more or less equal terms. thus by feats WS > Ozy.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only Night Owl and Comedian are stronger and more durable than BW... Which would explain how they were able to last longer.

And just how do you prove that?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only problem is, Cap, only using FA and WS, was not above Ozy. Let alone >>> that you implied. They were very much even, and even the vs. thread matching them was close in voting. As of OofU... Cap had even better feats that would put him above Ozy... but he wasn't there as of WS. If WS lost to Cap... and Ozy is near Cap as of the WS... WS also goes down.

The SS serum makes Cap be always at his peak physical stats. He doesn't get stronger or faster or more durable. He can get better in terms of skill and experience, but his physicality is always the same.

So AOU Cap is just as strong as First Avengers Cap.

Originally posted by Inhuman
WS was fighting Cap pretty evenly and in the CW trailer hes taking on Ironman. Both those foes are greater than Ozy.

WS takes the majority. This...so much. WS in an absolute stomp.

Originally posted by FrothByte
And just how do you prove that?

Huh? So you're saying you think they aren't stronger or more durable? I'm unclear what you're saying. Are you saying you think they are, you just can't quantify it by how much, and thus you can't determine things clearly. Or are you saying... they aren't stronger or more durable ?

Originally posted by FrothByte
The SS serum makes Cap be always at his peak physical stats. He doesn't get stronger or faster or more durable. He can get better in terms of skill and experience, but his physicality is always the same.

So AOU Cap is just as strong as First Avengers Cap.

This is incorrect as I've already shown. Technique and experience can 100% make you be able to lift more and run faster. That is what we are seeing with Cap's continued progression. He's getting stronger and faster because he has more experience more training.. better technique etc etc. Those things 100% improve your results. Cap from FA is not the same level Cap as in AOU.. you disagree?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Huh? So you're saying you think they aren't stronger or more durable? I'm unclear what you're saying. Are you saying you think they are, you just can't quantify it by how much, and thus you can't determine things clearly. Or are you saying... they aren't stronger or more durable ?

You said Night Owl and Comedian are more durable than Black Window. How exactly did you come up with that conclusion?

From them taking the hits they did throughout the movie... specifically when fighting Ozy. Put it this way, if BW fought Ozy, she would've gone down sooner than they did imo. Again though, how does WS win this fight. He's not better in any area than Ozy. Ozy is faster... more skilled.... just as durable... better reactions etc etc. He tools WS and laughs at him for even thinking he can step to Ozy.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I'd give a majority to Winter Soldier, though this would be a hard fight for both sides.

Based on what though? Ozy is better in virtually every single area that matters for a vs. match besides HF. What advantages does WS have here?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is incorrect as I've already shown. Technique and experience can 100% make you be able to lift more and run faster. That is what we are seeing with Cap's continued progression. He's getting stronger and faster because he has more experience more training.. better technique etc etc. Those things 100% improve your results. Cap from FA is not the same level Cap as in AOU.. you disagree?

Cap from AOU certainly seems to be a better fighter (or at least a more impressive one) than TFA, but I disagree about him being faster or stronger. Though you have a point that proper technique can help improve performance, majority of the performance will still be from physical conditioning. Besides, it's not like Cap continuously practices techniques for powerlifting or sprinting. You don't see him training for these.

For your theory to hold water, you have to prove that Cap changed his "technique" from TFA to AOU so that it significantly increased his strength and speed. You need to show that there's a change in technique.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
From them taking the hits they did throughout the movie... specifically when fighting Ozy. Put it this way, if BW fought Ozy, she would've gone down sooner than they did imo. Again though, how does WS win this fight. He's not better in any area than Ozy. Ozy is faster... more skilled.... just as durable... better reactions etc etc. He tools WS and laughs at him for even thinking he can step to Ozy.

Or, you could simply conclude that Ozy doesn't hit quite as hard as you think. After all, Roscharch was overpowered by a few prison guards. Black Widow has taken out better.

If Comedian had gone up against WS he'd have been done for in a few seconds.

Soooo does Bucky not have his robot arm? People seem to think Ozy can take hits from it with no problem or he won't be using it in the fight.

I can't post vids right now but if you watch the Cap vs. Bucky fight, they are fighting faster than the Ozy vs. Note owl and Roach fight.
So basing off of screen feats,
WS is faster while fighting, just as skilled as Ozy (watch his fight, he's a trained soldier), more durable (what durability feats does Ozy have?), and Bucky is stronger.

WS's bionic-arm punched into concrete iirc, that's going to wear down Ozy even when blocking.

WS takes this in the long run.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Cap from AOU certainly seems to be a better fighter (or at least a more impressive one) than TFA, but I disagree about him being faster or stronger. Though you have a point that proper technique can help improve performance, majority of the performance will still be from physical conditioning. Besides, it's not like Cap continuously practices techniques for powerlifting or sprinting. You don't see him training for these.

For your theory to hold water, you have to prove that Cap changed his "technique" from TFA to AOU so that it significantly increased his strength and speed. You need to show that there's a change in technique.

Unless you think Cap just sits on his booty for years and not trying to improve, than I don't know what you're asking for. We're talking about someone who is constantly training and constantly trying to improve himself and test himself. It's like this... If I try and lift an awkward table the first time and I struggle... the next time I'll know how to lift it better. Thus I lift it easier and cleaner. That doesn't mean I studied a book on technique of lifting a table... just simply doing things you learn about leverage and what works best. I fully believe it's in character for Cap to be constantly trying to learn new things and improve himself through training. That is what he does. However, even if you somehow believe he doesn't, he'd still learn through experience. You disagree?

Originally posted by Inhuman
I can't post vids right now but if you watch the Cap vs. Bucky fight, they are fighting faster than the Ozy vs. Note owl and Roach fight.
So basing off of screen feats,
WS is faster while fighting, just as skilled as Ozy (watch his fight, he's a trained soldier), more durable (what durability feats does Ozy have?), and Bucky is stronger.

In no way shape or form is Bucky faster... that is a completely false. Ozy by feats, is faster with better reactions. By A LOT. Bucky isn't certainly not more skilled, this must be another joke. Ozy is decisively more skilled than Bucky. The only thing Bucky has going for him is he's hard to put down, but Ozy will do so, while laughing at him

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In no way shape or form is Bucky faster... that is a completely false. Ozy by feats, is faster with better reactions. By A LOT. Bucky isn't certainly not more skilled, this must be another joke. Ozy is decisively more skilled than Bucky. The only thing Bucky has going for him is he's hard to put down, but Ozy will do so, while laughing at him

I'll post the videos when I can.

Originally posted by Robtard
WS's bionic-arm punched into concrete iirc, that's going to wear down Ozy even when blocking.

WS takes this in the long run.

He also pushed Cap back while using the shield by just pushing forward. And he yanked an entire steering column out of it's housing as well as embedded the shield in a vehicle by tossing it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Unless you think Cap just sits on his booty for years and not trying to improve, than I don't know what you're asking for. We're talking about someone who is constantly training and constantly trying to improve himself and test himself. It's like this... If I try and lift an awkward table the first time and I struggle... the next time I'll know how to lift it better. Thus I lift it easier and cleaner. That doesn't mean I studied a book on technique of lifting a table... just simply doing things you learn about leverage and what works best. I fully believe it's in character for Cap to be constantly trying to learn new things and improve himself through training. That is what he does. However, even if you somehow believe he doesn't, he'd still learn through experience. You disagree?

As I said previously, for your theory to make sense you need to provide proof that shows Cap using a different technique for his latter films than he did for his earlier films.

You'd actually need to prove that Cap was using an incorrect technique at first.

Now imagine the Cap vs. Bucky fight having those slo-mo Snyder effects that make things look "enhanced "
Ozy wasn't pulling his punches.
If Cap wasnt pulling his punched against normal people he would punch their heads clean off. Like he punched though reinforced submarine glass. WS punched though street concrete like nothing.
Watched these fights and tell me Ozy is faster and more skilled?
Bucky was taking his from Cap and was still coming for him.
What are Ozy's durability feats again?
Also be aware that Bucky is fighting another enhanced person. Ozy fought normal dudes.
When Bucky fights Widow (someone that is in Nite Owls tier) , her best bet is to run away from him. Even after having him in a choke with that wire of hers.



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We are basing these vs. fights off of screen feats.

WS wins this imo, but Nite Owl and Rorshach are not "normal" dudes.

Originally posted by Robtard
WS wins this imo, but Nite Owl and Rorshach are not "normal" dudes.

Black Widow isn't either

Originally posted by Inhuman
Now imagine the Cap vs. Bucky fight having those slo-mo Snyder effects that make things look "enhanced "
Ozy wasn't pulling his punches.
If Cap wasnt pulling his punched against normal people he would punch their heads clean off. Like he punched though reinforced submarine glass. WS punched though street concrete like nothing.
Watched these fights and tell me Ozy is faster and more skilled?
Bucky was taking his from Cap and was still coming for him.
What are Ozy's durability feats again?
Also be aware that Bucky is fighting another enhanced person. Ozy fought normal dudes.
When Bucky fights Widow (someone that is in Nite Owls tier) , her best bet is to run away from him. Even after having him in a choke with that wire of hers.



qXPOl6EjbWg

kbnGA8uu8T0

We are basing these vs. fights off of screen feats.

Huh? You posted videos that prove my EXACT point is rather odd. I never, not once saw Bucky sending people flying the way Ozy was doing in the video you posted. He was literally moving them 10 or more feet most times with his blows. That is decisively above what WS displayed. To even pretend Bucky is stronger or more skilled is you trying to be funny, not serious. Those weren't "normal" dudes, and Ozy was literally treating them like feebs. He was doing so with the greatest of ease, and by greatest of ease, I mean them not even landing a blow throughout most of the fight. Sometimes with his back turned. He was fast enough to kick, and at the same time, quickly move to throw a chair before he could react and fire correctly. These weren't above human level foes. They weren't regular humans by any means. They'd be classified as at the very least peak human or superhuman.

Imagine somebody striking a normal human with enough concussive force to send him flying 10 feet or more. With kicks puches and throws. While also getting slammed face first into concrete staire. Each one of those separate blows could kill a man, and would certainly KO any normal human. Even a peak human (hence the superhuman). Yet here, they still got up over and over. Normal dudes LOL.

The reality is this, WS isn't Cap, and Ozy is simply above him. In every meaningful category Ozy wins. He's faster, more skilled and he's stronger. Look at him effortlessly fly in the air 20 feet in an instant. For God's sake, this movie was made long before graffics and special effects of today, or even WS. But for God's sake just listen to the swoosh noises that continually happen when Ozy is making somebody miss or jumps in the air. Clearly trying to show that he's moving at fast speeds, and faster then them bya significant margin. Which makes sense, seeing as the treated them like slow feebs. Guys who were treating strong tough guys like feebs. Yeah, those guys.

Originally posted by Robtard
WS wins this imo, but Nite Owl and Rorshach are not "normal" dudes.

Nah, you know he doesn't bud. Ozy takes this all day everyday.

The only thing Ozy takes is a dirt nap after WS beats him into the ground.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I never, not once saw Bucky sending people flying the way Ozy was doing in the video you posted. He was literally moving them 10 or more feet most times with his blows. That is decisively above what WS displayed.

Bucky wasnt fighting mere Joe Shmo's either. He was fighting Cap. You know the character that routinely throws, punches, and kicks people and sends them flying. The same character that chucks motorcycles at people. The same character that beat an elevator full of highly trained Shield agents. Etc,,,. Yeah, i'm not surprised he didnt send Cap flying (which he did somewhat a couple times with a kick and then just tossing him).

You over estimate the characters that Ozy beat too. Rorschach? The guy got over powered and apprehended by cops for goodness sakes. Night Owl? His best feats are beating up a few street thugs and some prisoners. Comedian? I dont even remember what the Comedian did except for looking like an old, broken down man.

Ozy is good but Cap and Bucky are on a different level.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Huh? You posted videos that prove my EXACT point is rather odd. I never, not once saw Bucky sending people flying the way Ozy was doing in the video you posted. Bucky's strength is near the level of Cap's and he sent at least one guy flying with a casual kick.

You need to watch the movie again.

Originally posted by Mindset
Bucky's strength is near the level of Cap's and he sent at least one guy flying with a casual kick.

You need to watch the movie again.

Yeah, Bucky sent that guy flying about 30 feet in distance and probably about 15 feet up, and the guy was still flying at an upward angle when he impacted the quinjet engine. And he did it with a casual straight thrust kick.

Also LOL at the Watchmen "was made long before graffics and special effects of today" argument. That film came after the Matrix trilogy, The One, multiple X-men films, multiple Spiderman films, as well as Iron Man and Incredible Hulk.

I actually rechecked the bit where he kicked the guy. He actually seemed to reach the peak of his flight as he hit the jet, but the kick is still easily on the same level as anything we have seen Ozy do.

And I actually also noticed a reaction feat for Bucky I missed before. Right before he does said kick, one of the other SHIELD pilots raises a rifle and starts firing at WS at near point blank range, but Bucky is fast enough to pull his metal arm up and block the bullets, before one-shotting the guy, after which he proceeds to kick the other pilot into the engine.

I think Ozy has the required speed and skill to hang with WS, also for a prolonged amount of time. What I see as the deciding factor in the end is the arm of WS, which I recall even Cap had issues fighting against in their initial encounter. And if Cap had issues against the arm, then Ozy most certainly will as well.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In no way shape or form is Bucky faster... that is a completely false. Ozy by feats, is faster with better reactions. By A LOT. Bucky isn't certainly not more skilled, this must be another joke. Ozy is decisively more skilled than Bucky. The only thing Bucky has going for him is he's hard to put down, but Ozy will do so, while laughing at him Agreed with this

Ozy is definitely faster and more skilled. The dude caught a bullet. Thats more impressive than just dodging. Its also not aim dodging for whoever said that earlier in the thread. Ozy clearly moved after the bullet was shot. His arms were are his side and he flung them up to catch the bullet. This comfortably makes him a bullet timer. On top of this, his blows also break concrete (like WS) and marble (which is harder than concrete). He threw a larger than average man through bullet proof glass you'd have to "step on the gas just to put a crack in." His jumps have cleared a good 30-40 feat across and 20 feet upwards. He fought both Nite Owl and Rorschach casually, while sustaining a calm monologue. They didn't connect one hit, showing this wasn't him struggling even slightly.

He also let Nite Owl, who has also sent men flying with his punches, as well as broken bones with single strikes, lay into his face with multiple and repeated free punches like Cap did with WS metal arm. He came out of it with no real injuries. WS, even if he manages to tag Ozy a few times, will not take down Ozy with the few hits he manages to connect (which wont be many, if any). Ozy, on the other hand, is definitely strong enough to hurt WS with his punches, and he will be peppering him with them. Sooner or later, WS goes down.

The only stat WS has him in is strength. He also hasn't shown that to be a very huge gap.

Originally posted by FrothByte
As I said previously, for your theory to make sense you need to provide proof that shows Cap using a different technique for his latter films than he did for his earlier films.

You'd actually need to prove that Cap was using an incorrect technique at first.

The onus is on you actually. We go by what is more logical here, and that is where the onus lies.

You feel Cap is stagnant, and isn't constantly trying to learn and improve himself, AND that he hasn't already improved himself technique wise

I feel Cap is constantly trying to improve himself, and no doubt would've learned a great deal about technique and leverage over the years. Even if he wasn't constantly reading and practicing technique and leverage, as I've shown, simply doing things makes you learn about them.

Now which of those two do you think is more likely? Clearly No. 2, without question. Thus you need to prove Cap hasn't gained any knowledge that would've improved his technique for lifting things. I feel that's a given.

Originally posted by tkitna
Bucky wasnt fighting mere Joe Shmo's either. He was fighting Cap. You know the character that routinely throws, punches, and kicks people and sends them flying. The same character that chucks motorcycles at people. The same character that beat an elevator full of highly trained Shield agents. Etc,,,. Yeah, i'm not surprised he didnt send Cap flying (which he did somewhat a couple times with a kick and then just tossing him).

You over estimate the characters that Ozy beat too. Rorschach? The guy got over powered and apprehended by cops for goodness sakes. Night Owl? His best feats are beating up a few street thugs and some prisoners. Comedian? I dont even remember what the Comedian did except for looking like an old, broken down man.

Ozy is good but Cap and Bucky are on a different level.

You're right Ozy is on a whole other level. It's Ozy. Just watch the damn fights. He was moving super human dudes over 10 feet with each punch and kick he landed. Shit, he wasn't even looking at them sometimes and was still able to block their blows effortlessly. Stop being disingenuous. Ozy was plain superior to Bucky on EVERY level. He's faster, he's more skilled, he's smarter, he's stronger and he's more agile. It's literally all there for everybody to see. Bucky was not moving people with his blows the way Ozy was. Bucky gets owned, Hard.

Originally posted by Mindset
Bucky's strength is near the level of Cap's and he sent at least one guy flying with a casual kick.

You need to watch the movie again.

He's not Cap level, he lost. Further, he's not as strong, Period. Ozy was sending guys flying with almost every kick and punch he threw WHILE NOT GETTING A BLOW LANDED ON HIM. On the contrary, bucky was barely moving people the way Ozy was, and he got hit way more. Ozy poops all over Bucky skill wise.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Also LOL at the Watchmen "was made long before graffics and special effects of today" argument. That film came after the Matrix trilogy, The One, multiple X-men films, multiple Spiderman films, as well as Iron Man and Incredible Hulk.

Right, and not one single movie you named (based on comics) showed high speed h2h combat encounters. Not one. Not a single X-Men movie... Not spiderman.. not Iron Man, not Incredible Hulk... NONE of the movies based on comics. The swoosh noises that we kept hearing as Ozy was dodging punches and kicks was supposed to represent how much faster he was moving than them. Was it not? What were those sounds supposed to imply?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I actually rechecked the bit where he kicked the guy. He actually seemed to reach the peak of his flight as he hit the jet, but the kick is still easily on the same level as anything we have seen Ozy do.

And I actually also noticed a reaction feat for Bucky I missed before. Right before he does said kick, one of the other SHIELD pilots raises a rifle and starts firing at WS at near point blank range, but Bucky is fast enough to pull his metal arm up and block the bullets, before one-shotting the guy, after which he proceeds to kick the other pilot into the engine.

No that kick isn't on the level of what Ozy did. Nice try though. Even if you want to assume it is (wasn't as far), the reality is, Ozy did it almost with every move. Bucky barely ever did it. My evidence > than yours. Ozy is questionably stronger based on feats, and without a doubt more skilled. Faster isn't even close. Get back to me when bucky can catch a bullet.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Agreed with this

Ozy is definitely faster and more skilled. The dude caught a bullet. Thats more impressive than just dodging. Its also not aim dodging for whoever said that earlier in the thread. Ozy clearly moved after the bullet was shot. His arms were are his side and he flung them up to catch the bullet. This comfortably makes him a bullet timer. On top of this, his blows also break concrete (like WS) and marble (which is harder than concrete). He threw a larger than average man through bullet proof glass you'd have to "step on the gas just to put a crack in." His jumps have cleared a good 30-40 feat across and 20 feet upwards. He fought both Nite Owl and Rorschach casually, while sustaining a calm monologue. They didn't connect one hit, showing this wasn't him struggling even slightly.

He also let Nite Owl, who has also sent men flying with his punches, as well as broken bones with single strikes, lay into his face with multiple and repeated free punches like Cap did with WS metal arm. He came out of it with no real injuries. WS, even if he manages to tag Ozy a few times, will not take down Ozy with the few hits he manages to connect (which wont be many, if any). Ozy, on the other hand, is definitely strong enough to hurt WS with his punches, and he will be peppering him with them. Sooner or later, WS goes down.

The only stat WS has him in is strength. He also hasn't shown that to be a very huge gap.

I agree with every thing you said, though I would disagree that Bucky is stronger. Ozy was literally sending men flying over 10 feet with almost every blow. The strength needed to send grown men flying like that, would be pretty substantial. He was sending people flying farther than Bucky with his blows. So that to me means Ozy is stronger than Bucky. At worst let's say he can't punch more than Bucky, he certainly has more functional strength when it comes to h2h combat.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He's not Cap level, he lost. Further, he's not as strong, Period. Ozy was sending guys flying with almost every kick and punch he threw WHILE NOT GETTING A BLOW LANDED ON HIM. On the contrary, bucky was barely moving people the way Ozy was, and he got hit way more. Ozy poops all over Bucky skill wise. You didn't even know Bucky could send someone flying with a kick.

FOH

If you watch those 2 clips i posted , Cap & bucky fighting speed and skill are better than Ozy. Ozy does had good reaction time but that is against opponents that are below Cap or Bucky in stats.
Again if you watch when Ozy is fighting with Nite owl, the fighting speed is slower than the Bucky , cap fight. this is not debatable. Its there in the video.
So what are Ozys best durability feats? No answer yet.
Nite Owl and Rorschach are in Black widow and Hawkeye tier. And this is basing it off of Nite Owl and Rorschach only having feats of beating up common fodder.
The bullet reaction was impressive but could be argued that Ozy knew it was coming. Still doesnt mean that all his reactions are going to be bullet timing reactions. Like I said his fight with Nite Owl didnt show any super fast movements, especially not thee same speed as the Cap , bucky fight.

Wont be an easy fight , but Bucky wins in the end. Better feats , strength, durability, skill, speed, etc against people above Ozy.

KT knows that he's lost, that is why he is currently spam posting.

Originally posted by Mindset
You didn't even know Bucky could send someone flying with a kick.

FOH

Ummm, Ozy didn't it vastly more times and with utter ease. WS doing it once, doesn't match up to Ozy. Not even close. Ozy poops on him, and monologues while doing it.

Originally posted by Inhuman
If you watch those 2 clips i posted , Cap & bucky fighting speed and skill are better than Ozy. Ozy does had good reaction time but that is against opponents that are below Cap or Bucky in stats.
Again if you watch when Ozy is fighting with Nite owl, the fighting speed is slower than the Bucky , cap fight. this is not debatable. Its there in the video.
So what are Ozys best durability feats? No answer yet.
Nite Owl and Rorschach are in Black widow and Hawkeye tier. And this is basing it off of Nite Owl and Rorschach only having feats of beating up common fodder.
The bullet reaction was impressive but could be argued that Ozy knew it was coming. Still doesnt mean that all his reactions are going to be bullet timing reactions. Like I said his fight with Nite Owl didnt show any super fast movements, especially not thee same speed as the Cap , bucky fight.

Wont be an easy fight , but Bucky wins in the end. Better feats , strength, durability, skill, speed, etc against people above Ozy.

It wasn't just reaction, he's simply THAT fast for God's sake. If he can move his hand fast enough to catch a bullet AFTER it was fired... he's faster than Bucky or Cap. Point blank. Do you know how fast you'd have to be able to move your arm into position to catch a bullet, but only moved your arm AFTER the bullet was fired. That arm movement and reaction poops over anything either Cap or Bucky has done. Neither are faster than Ozy and it's being disingenuous to even pretend they are.

Stronger, I've already proven incorrect. We saw Ozy literally sending guys flying over 10 feet with almost every punch and kick. He was doing so with the utmost of ease, like he was barely trying. Yet he was still sending guys flying. The strength required to send guys flying to far is crazy. Yet he was doing so with the greatest of ease while seemingly barely trying. Thus he's stronger, or at the very least, he's functionally stronger when it comes to h2h combat

Durability... did you not see him getting whaled on without even trying to block or roll with the punches and it doing absolutely nothing to him. It literally did nothing to him. We're talking about getting whaled on by a guy who was tooling strong tough guy types as if they were nothing. Yeah, id say he can take the few blows Bucky will end up landing on him just fine.

Their skill level aren't even comparable. This is the least close category of all of them. Ozy is in a whole other league of skill compared to Bucky. Just simply watching the fights makes this abundantly clear. I could show the videos to 8 year old kids and ask them.. Who looks more skilled here? Each and every one of them would say Ozy. Why? Because it's THAT easy to see that a 8 year old could pick it out. Here's a guy who didn't have a single blow landed on him, sometimes with his back turned, and was effortlessly sending them flying when he countered. Bucky never had such a display and the ease in which Ozy displayed it. It's a joke to even say Bucky is as skilled as Ozy, and if you think so, we should just end this discussion now. I can't move forward with anybody who actually believes Bucky is as skilled. No way no how.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm, Ozy didn't it vastly more times and with utter ease. WS doing it once, doesn't match up to Ozy. Not even close. Ozy poops on him, and monologues while doing it. You didn't think WS could do it at all.

You are clearly unprepared to debate this topic.

Originally posted by Mindset
You didn't think WS could do it at all.

You are clearly unprepared to debate this topic.

Didn't think he could? My only statement was that Ozy has done so regularly, and WS has not done so regularly. Which is 100% factual. I never once said WS couldn't do it, simply that he's not on Ozy level in doing so. He's not.

WS is comparable in strength to Cap, with his bionic-arm being even stronger.

Considering that Cap is stronger than Ozy, we can safely conclude that WS is also stronger than Ozy.

Proof:

Ozy sends 155(+/-)lbs Rorschach flying like a soccer ball with a kick

Cap throws a 700lbs motorcycle with enough force to destroy a Land Rover

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Right, and not one single movie you named (based on comics) showed high speed h2h combat encounters. Not one. Not a single X-Men movie... Not spiderman.. not Iron Man, not Incredible Hulk... NONE of the movies based on comics. The swoosh noises that we kept hearing as Ozy was dodging punches and kicks was supposed to represent how much faster he was moving than them. Was it not? What were those sounds supposed to imply?

Yeah, because Spiderman was never depicted with enhanced senses, or shown to perceive and react to things at heightened speed, and X3 didn't have a legit speedster in Callisto, with fight scenes showing her blitz Storm...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No that kick isn't on the level of what Ozy did. Nice try though. Even if you want to assume it is (wasn't as far), the reality is, Ozy did it almost with every move. Bucky barely ever did it. My evidence > than yours. Ozy is questionably stronger based on feats, and without a doubt more skilled. Faster isn't even close. Get back to me when bucky can catch a bullet.

More downplaying from the downplayer. That kick easily matches it, whether you want to admit it or not. The guy didn't travel the full distance because he flew right into a quinjet before he could. He was only reaching the peak of his flight there, so would have gone nearly double that distance before actually landing. And the fact that he did it proves he can, whether he decided to do it against everyone or just one person.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Didn't think he could? My only statement was that Ozy has done so regularly, and WS has not done so regularly. Which is 100% factual. I never once said WS couldn't do it, simply that he's not on Ozy level in doing so. He's not.

So saying "never, not once" now means "not done so regularly". And while referring to strikes of "10 feet or more", which we have proof of Bucky doing.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He was moving super human dudes over 10 feet with each punch and kick he landed.

Here's the whole problem. Nite Owl and Rorschach arent super human. Why do you feel they are? It has never been stated anywhere that they are. They are nothing more than decently skilled street levelers.

Wasn't Rorschach outrunning gunfire from the cops before they kicked his ass?

I don't recall him ever running fast enough to break the sound barrier.

He was running down a corridor while some cops on a staircase tried to fire at him from it, but it wasn't really "outrunning bullets". A protagonist avoiding a hail of fodder gunfire is hardly anything new to action scenes. Arrow and his team do it virtually every other week.

And to be fair, he wouldn't necessarily need to break the sound barrier to outrun "a bullet". Depends on the weapon. The Smith & Wesson Model 10 Silk Spectre used to shoot Ozy has a muzzle velocity slower than the speed of sound IIRC.

So while not necessarily needing to break the sound barrier, he would still have to run well over 100mph in order to outrun a bullet. I'd really like to hear just how far above 100mph carthage believes Rorschach too be.

I doubt he genuinely believes Rorschach is that fast. One thing I will give Rorschach is that he was freakishly strong for his size, and handled flying headbutting a TV better than most would.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Yeah, because Spiderman was never depicted with enhanced senses, or shown to perceive and react to things at heightened speed, and X3 didn't have a legit speedster in Callisto, with fight scenes showing her blitz Storm...

And HUlk fighting blonsky in Incredible hulk, or the blade movies where deacon frost bullet-timing againt blade pre la-magra or superspeeding in la magra form, or the slo-mo effect in the nomak fight, etc. there were a lot of fast fights

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Yeah, because Spiderman was never depicted with enhanced senses, or shown to perceive and react to things at heightened speed, and X3 didn't have a legit speedster in Callisto, with fight scenes showing her blitz Storm...



More downplaying from the downplayer. That kick easily matches it, whether you want to admit it or not. The guy didn't travel the full distance because he flew right into a quinjet before he could. He was only reaching the peak of his flight there, so would have gone nearly double that distance before actually landing. And the fact that he did it proves he can, whether he decided to do it against everyone or just one person.



So saying "never, not once" now means "not done so regularly". And while referring to strikes of "10 feet or more", which we have proof of Bucky doing.

Spiderman never displayed super speed h2h combat exchanges, In fact, one could argue that Cap and Bucky appeared to be faster h2h. Yet, as we know this is undoubtedly false, as Spiderman is conclusively faster. Which again is the point, they don't always display speed as fast as the characters should be moving. This is a fact. It occurs all the time. Are you new to movies or something?

No that doesn't prove it actually. It falls short, pun intended. You have no way to know how far he was going to actually fly. Nice try though. It's all guesswork and speculation on your end, I have feats that need none. Period. Even if we suppose the kick was as hard, it would consider it a one off. Ozy did so with more regularity. Undisputable fact.

Again, he didn't fly 10 feet, what is so unclear about that? You speculating how far he flew, doesn't make what I said false. You're simply speculating. Again though, I was very clear, Ozy has done so regularly, Bucky maybe did it once, and never again. Game, set, match.

Originally posted by tkitna
Here's the whole problem. Nite Owl and Rorschach arent super human. Why do you feel they are? It has never been stated anywhere that they are. They are nothing more than decently skilled street levelers.

This is getting ludicrous now, I mean really. I already said why they are, did you simply put your hands over your eyes and not even read it? Seems so.

Look, even the best martial artist fighter in the world, would absolutely struggle taking on big strong prison dudes at the same time. He'd unquestionably struggle and very likely lose. At the very least he gets his lumps and hurt in the process of it all. These guys were absolutely tooling these guys and barely even had a single blow landed on them. That to me is above what a human could really do. At the very least it would be peak human to accomplish that with the utter ease they did.

So there is that, and as I already proved, their durability is clearly superhuman. The concussive force behind blows that would send you flying 10 or more feet would be substantial. A blow that can send you that far could easily kill you, or at the very least, you'd be KO'd. Even a peak human would be KO'd. They guys weren't after repeated such blows. Even getting your head slammed on a concrete/marble step. He was literally picked up over his head and slammed on his head. Again KO or death... he got up moments later. That is the definition of superhuman durability.

Now, actually try and read what I typed there and tell me how they are not superhuman?

Exactly, and there was no swoosh counting involved in Spiderman. Or the Blade trilogy, or Daredevil, or Elektra. So unless you can actually provide solid canonical evidence that the intention of the film creators was specifically to show a speed difference with the sound effects, it is speculation on your part.

And lol, until a few posts ago, you didn't even acknowledge the feat at all. And he very clearly flies well more than 10 feet before even reaching the jet. You can visibly see the distance between the guy and the jet in one of the previous shots. The fact that you don't know that speaks volumes.

And good job glossing over the fact that you were wrong about X-men.

Anyway, I'm bored with your nonsense.

Originally posted by Robtard
WS is comparable in strength to Cap, with his bionic-arm being even stronger.

Considering that Cap is stronger than Ozy, we can safely conclude that WS is also stronger than Ozy.

Proof:

Ozy sends 155(+/-)lbs Rorschach flying like a soccer ball with a kick

Cap throws a 700lbs motorcycle with enough force to destroy a Land Rover Caps feats don't transfer to Bucky man

Bucky's arm is not as strong as cap. Cap overpowered it in seconds with one arm at the end of WS when they were grappling. Winter Soldier is skilled and quick enough to hang with Cap, but he is nowhere near his strength. Bucky laying into Caps face with a bunch of free hits from the arm and doing nothing to him was also not an impressive show for the arm.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I agree with every thing you said, though I would disagree that Bucky is stronger. Ozy was literally sending men flying over 10 feet with almost every blow. The strength needed to send grown men flying like that, would be pretty substantial. He was sending people flying farther than Bucky with his blows. So that to me means Ozy is stronger than Bucky. At worst let's say he can't punch more than Bucky, he certainly has more functional strength when it comes to h2h combat. Thats a pretty good strength argument for Ozy

Unfortunately, Bucky's arm also ripped a car door off if I remember correctly. Thats why I give him the slight strength edge. I'm not completely sure, but I figure ripping off a car door would take more strength than hitting someone and sending them flying 20 feet off

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Caps feats don't transfer to Bucky man

Bucky's arm is not as strong as cap. Cap overpowered it in seconds with one arm at the end of WS when they were grappling. Winter Soldier is skilled and quick enough to hang with Cap, but he is nowhere near his strength. Bucky laying into Caps face with a bunch of free hits from the arm and doing nothing to him was also not an impressive show for the arm.


Was saying it in regards to CA:WS, Cap increased again in AOU, so yeah, no bike toss.

They seemed to be comparable in strength in their first figth scene, with WS' bionic-arm giving him an edge.

qXPOl6EjbWg

As far an Cap overpowering WS' arm, it was the other way around, WS was being chocked and he pulled Cap's arm off, only to have Cap quickly lock the arm with a leg-lock

IuvDKS7-MTk

@ 02:10

Those clips are actually pretty decent durability feats for Bucky as well, considering how many hard hits he takes from Steve and just keeps coming. Cap had to choke him out to stop him, and even that was only temporary.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Caps feats don't transfer to Bucky man

Bucky's arm is not as strong as cap. Cap overpowered it in seconds with one arm at the end of WS when they were grappling. Winter Soldier is skilled and quick enough to hang with Cap, but he is nowhere near his strength. Bucky laying into Caps face with a bunch of free hits from the arm and doing nothing to him was also not an impressive show for the arm.

Thats a pretty good strength argument for Ozy


Cap overpowered Bucky's arm with his legs, not his own arm.

Originally posted by Robtard
Was saying it in regards to CA:WS, Cap increased again in AOU.

They seemed to be comparable in strength in their first figth scene, with WS' bionic-arm giving him an edge.

As far an Cap overpowering WS' arm, it was the other way around, WS was being chocked and he pulled Cap's arm off, only to have Cap quickly lock the arm with a leg-lock
@ 02:10 You're right, I always figured it was Cap who overpowered his arm into position to leg lock him, but he's the one who seems to be pulling caps arm off instead.

Thats a pretty solid argument for the strength stat going to WS here

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is getting ludicrous now, I mean really. I already said why they are, did you simply put your hands over your eyes and not even read it? Seems so.

Look, even the best martial artist fighter in the world, would absolutely struggle taking on big strong prison dudes at the same time. He'd unquestionably struggle and very likely lose. At the very least he gets his lumps and hurt in the process of it all. These guys were absolutely tooling these guys and barely even had a single blow landed on them. That to me is above what a human could really do. At the very least it would be peak human to accomplish that with the utter ease they did.

Now, actually try and read what I typed there and tell me how they are not superhuman?

This is the movies. Bringing in real world examples doesnt fly here.
There are plenty of movie characters that can accomplish what Nite Owl did with those thugs/prisoners in the same manner or better.

The Transporter
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Jason Brourne
The Bride
All of the Expendables
Commando
John Rambo
Most of the Agents of Shield main cast
John Wick
James Bond
The Rock (From the rundown, Gi Joe, F&F)
Agent from Kingsmen
Etc

I can go on and on.

Doesnt mean they are all super human.
Just your usual skilled movie hero, peak human fighters that do quick work of fodder.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Exactly, and there was no swoosh counting involved in Spiderman. Or the Blade trilogy, or Daredevil, or Elektra. So unless you can actually provide solid canonical evidence that the intention of the film creators was specifically to show a speed difference with the sound effects, it is speculation on your part.

And lol, until a few posts ago, you didn't even acknowledge the feat at all. And he very clearly flies well more than 10 feet before even reaching the jet. You can visibly see the distance between the guy and the jet in one of the previous shots. The fact that you don't know that speaks volumes.

And good job glossing over the fact that you were wrong about X-men.

Anyway, I'm bored with your nonsense.

I don't view that as 10 feet though, it could be, but it's hard to tell. I've already said, even if you want to count that, it still isn't on Ozy level. Period, end of story. Get back to me when he's does so as regularly as Ozy.

Nice job glancing over the fact that she didn't show any h2h combat PUNCHING speed. Sure she was shown teleporting around and it being fast. She was never shown punching or kicking that fast in cqc, which is what I'm talking about. Ozy was shown to be fighting as fast as any Spiderman punch he's thrown in any movie. Does that mean he's as fast? Wrong, nah, your reading comprehension is just subpar.

Daredevil nor Elektra were shown punching at speeds greater than Ozy. Post them clip of them fighting at faster h2h speed. Which is again, what we are talking about.

Seriously are you new to movies?

Originally posted by Arachnid1
You're right, I always figured it was Cap who overpowered his arm into position to leg lock him, but he's the one who seems to be pulling caps arm off instead.

Thats a pretty solid argument for the strength stat going to WS here

Yeah, whatever experiments Hydra did, it seemed to somewhat mimic the super-soldier experiment used on Cap, with the bionic arm rounding out any shortcomings.

Pound for pound, I'd still considering Cap physically stronger not counting the bionic-arm

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Those clips are actually pretty decent durability feats for Bucky as well, considering how many hard hits he takes from Steve and just keeps coming. Cap had to choke him out to stop him, and even that was only temporary.

He's very durable. He survived (lost an arm) falling from the train in CA:TFA and that was just after Hydra's experiments.

Originally posted by Inhuman
This is the movies. Bringing in real world examples doesnt fly here.
There are plenty of movie characters that can accomplish what Nite Owl did with those thugs/prisoners in the same manner or better.

The Transporter
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Jason Brourne
The Bride
All of the Expendables
Commando
John Rambo
Most of the Agents of Shield main cast
John Wick
James Bond
The Rock (From the rundown, Gi Joe, F&F)
Agent from Kingsmen
Etc

I can go on and on.

Doesnt mean they are all super human.
Just your usual skilled peak human fighters that do quick work of fodder.

Real world fighting absolutely applies, in fact, it's the ONLY criteria to judge what a peak human would be. IF a peak human is unlikely to beat 15 big tough strong guy types at the same time... well... he's unlikely to do so. We define what peak human is, well by what human can do. It's the most relevant factor here, so it's comical you're saying it doesn't apply. We would call them kicks or punches or throws or counters if not for real world fighting. It's the basis for every thing we're trying to interpret. Nice try though.

So now, a peak human imo would not be able to fight off that many dudes, while not having a blow landed on them. That's above peak human in reality. Even if we call them peak human for fighting, as I've unquestionably showed, they are superhuman durability wise. Which you must agree with, seeing as you quoted my post but took the durability part off. Clearly a concession on your part, and I accept.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is getting ludicrous now, I mean really. I already said why they are, did you simply put your hands over your eyes and not even read it? Seems so.

Look, even the best martial artist fighter in the world, would absolutely struggle taking on big strong prison dudes at the same time. He'd unquestionably struggle and very likely lose. At the very least he gets his lumps and hurt in the process of it all. These guys were absolutely tooling these guys and barely even had a single blow landed on them. That to me is above what a human could really do. At the very least it would be peak human to accomplish that with the utter ease they did.

So there is that, and as I already proved, their durability is clearly superhuman. The concussive force behind blows that would send you flying 10 or more feet would be substantial. A blow that can send you that far could easily kill you, or at the very least, you'd be KO'd. Even a peak human would be KO'd. They guys weren't after repeated such blows. Even getting your head slammed on a concrete/marble step. He was literally picked up over his head and slammed on his head. Again KO or death... he got up moments later. That is the definition of superhuman durability.

Now, actually try and read what I typed there and tell me how they are not superhuman?

They are not Superhuman. Again, Rorschach was apprehended by common city cops. Beating prisoners and street thugs is nothing that Black Widow and Hawkeye couldnt do but yet they arent superhuman either. Taking damage is cool too, but again Black Widow and Hawkeye were taking punches from Chitauri aliens and doing crazy leaps and so forth, yet still street levelers.

Lets take a look at a description of Nite Owls powers and abilities from DC Database-

Abilities
Genius Level Intellect
Gadgetry: Dan was the creator of many inventions and crime-fighting technologies, like his "Owlship" ship, and Night Owl weapons.
Acrobatics: Dan was an accomplished acrobat, who more often than not, utilized this greatly into his hand-to-hand fighting style.
Martial Arts: Had studied with several martial arts masters, and can out-fight just about any group of thugs or criminals with his fighting skills alone.

How about Rorschach

Abilities
Acrobatics: Training himself to become a gifted athlete, Rorschach has been able to jump roof top to roof top, scale tall buildings and land on his feet without ever making a sound.
Hand-to-Hand Combat (Advanced): Rorschach was a brilliant street fighter and has since honed this skill during his years of crime fighting and his stint in prison.
Interrogation: Rorschach has his own special brand of asking questions, mostly involving breaking body parts and otherwise scarring or maiming victims (or suspects) to get answers.
Investigation: Rorschach is an accomplished detective, figuring out the "mask killer theory" and eventually Ozymandias' plan with little to no help. His zeal for crime solving has been mentioned multiple times.
Genius Level Intellect: Rorschach has been described as Nite Owl as "tactically brilliant", and excelled in religious education, political science and literature in his schooling days. He is also able to string weapons out of anything, like a cooking fat spray can and a match.

Show me where it states either character are superhuman in any context. Anywhere. Point it out to me. Show me anywhere in the movie where it states they are superhuman besides your slighted opinion. Just because you catergorize them as something more than what they are doesnt mean its so. Your just wrong plain and simple.

Originally posted by Robtard
Was saying it in regards to CA:WS, Cap increased again in AOU, so yeah, no bike toss.

They seemed to be comparable in strength in their first figth scene, with WS' bionic-arm giving him an edge.

qXPOl6EjbWg

As far an Cap overpowering WS' arm, it was the other way around, WS was being chocked and he pulled Cap's arm off, only to have Cap quickly lock the arm with a leg-lock

IuvDKS7-MTk

@ 02:10

Tell that to Froth and Silent who feel Cap from the FA is just as strong as Cap from AOU. I don't agree, you don't either, but they have continually stood by the claim that he hasn't gotten any stronger or faster or anything. Which is pretty illogical in my book.

Lets make this as easy as possible for everybody. If Nite Owl and Rorschach are indeed Superhuman, can somebody please explain what their powers are and how and where did they get them?

That question should take care of this little debate.

Originally posted by tkitna
They are not Superhuman. Again, Rorschach was apprehended by common city cops. Beating prisoners and street thugs is nothing that Black Widow and Hawkeye couldnt do but yet they arent superhuman either. Taking damage is cool too, but again Black Widow and Hawkeye were taking punches from Chitauri aliens and doing crazy leaps and so forth, yet still street levelers.

Lets take a look at a description of Nite Owls powers and abilities from DC Database-

Abilities
Genius Level Intellect
Gadgetry: Dan was the creator of many inventions and crime-fighting technologies, like his "Owlship" ship, and Night Owl weapons.
Acrobatics: Dan was an accomplished acrobat, who more often than not, utilized this greatly into his hand-to-hand fighting style.
Martial Arts: Had studied with several martial arts masters, and can out-fight just about any group of thugs or criminals with his fighting skills alone.

How about Rorschach

Abilities
Acrobatics: Training himself to become a gifted athlete, Rorschach has been able to jump roof top to roof top, scale tall buildings and land on his feet without ever making a sound.
Hand-to-Hand Combat (Advanced): Rorschach was a brilliant street fighter and has since honed this skill during his years of crime fighting and his stint in prison.
Interrogation: Rorschach has his own special brand of asking questions, mostly involving breaking body parts and otherwise scarring or maiming victims (or suspects) to get answers.
Investigation: Rorschach is an accomplished detective, figuring out the "mask killer theory" and eventually Ozymandias' plan with little to no help. His zeal for crime solving has been mentioned multiple times.
Genius Level Intellect: Rorschach has been described as Nite Owl as "tactically brilliant", and excelled in religious education, political science and literature in his schooling days. He is also able to string weapons out of anything, like a cooking fat spray can and a match.

Show me where it states either character are superhuman in any context. Anywhere. Point it out to me. Show me anywhere in the movie where it states they are superhuman besides your slighted opinion. Just because you catergorize them as something more than what they are doesnt mean its so. Your just wrong plain and simple.

Fail 101.

Feats in the movie are 100% more canon proof than using DC's database on the characters. Nice try, but a fail none the less.

We know normal humans can't take damage like Ozy was dishing out and not be KO'd. The fact that they took multiple blows from Ozy at this level, shows they have superhuman durability. As I stated, even a peak human would get KO'd or even Killed by a single blow like that, let alone multiple ones. Stop posting nonsense. Canon movie feats >>>>> than anything you've posted.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Real world fighting absolutely applies, in fact, it's the ONLY criteria to judge what a peak human would be. IF a peak human is unlikely to beat 15 big tough strong guy types at the same time... well... he's unlikely to do so. We define what peak human is, well by what human can do. It's the most relevant factor here, so it's comical you're saying it doesn't apply. We would call them kicks or punches or throws or counters if not for real world fighting. It's the basis for every thing we're trying to interpret. Nice try though.

So now, a peak human imo would not be able to fight off that many dudes, while not having a blow landed on them. That's above peak human in reality. Even if we call them peak human for fighting, as I've unquestionably showed, they are superhuman durability wise. Which you must agree with, seeing as you quoted my post but took the durability part off. Clearly a concession on your part, and I accept.

The point of my post was to show you that other movie characters that are not superhuman can accomplish what Nite Owl and Co. did to thugs and prisoners.
Some would even do it better.
you ignored that, so you are conceding


Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Tell that to Froth and Silent who feel Cap from the FA is just as strong as Cap from AOU. I don't agree, you don't either, but they have continually stood by the claim that he hasn't gotten any stronger or faster or anything. Which is pretty illogical in my book.

Cap from First Avenger (While still not sure of his powers, and had just got out of his chamber that gave him the Serum), was ripping car doors off, running fast enough to keep up with a car, jumping over tall fences, tossing people up 20 feet (In water) up to the walkway, punching in reinforced submarine cockpit glass.

Originally posted by tkitna
Lets make this as easy as possible for everybody. If Nite Owl and Rorschach are indeed Superhuman, can somebody please explain what their powers are and how and where did they get them?

That question should take care of this little debate.

They get their powers from Snyder special effects team. Dont you know that slow mo and all his other effects in fights mean that your superhuman?

@ KT Sorry, but even a complete idiot can judge that distance. It is very clearly more than 10 feet. You just have to look at the size of the people, and compare that to the distance they are from the jet. But of course you will downplay anything you can when it involves Cap/Bucky.

Teleporting? LOL She had superspeed and the ability to sense mutant powers. And nice Strawman. I never said they punched faster than him. No, the burden of proof remains with you to back your claim with evidence, from the film creators, about the sound effects. Until you do, it's hot air. Also, love how you post a question, answer it yourself, and then tell me my reading is subpar. The point of the post was to show that there are ways beyond "swoosh" noises to indicate speed, as seen in films pre-dating Watchmen. That was the entire point.

Anyway, you are unlikely to stop downplaying Bucky's feat, and even less likely to provide genuine evidence over your "swooshing" claim, so I see no further point in wasting my time responding to you.

Originally posted by tkitna
Lets make this as easy as possible for everybody. If Nite Owl and Rorschach are indeed Superhuman, can somebody please explain what their powers are and how and where did they get them?

That question should take care of this little debate.

So you think in order to be superhuman you need to shot fire out your butt or turn water into ice? You can be superhuman.. and simply have superhuman durability or h2h skill. You don't need exotic powers to be. Are you new to this?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So you think in order to be superhuman you need to shot fire out your butt or turn water into ice? You can be superhuman.. and simply have superhuman durability or h2h skill. You don't need exotic powers to be. Are you new to this?

Where or how did they obtain these exotic powers?

Originally posted by tkitna
Lets make this as easy as possible for everybody. If Nite Owl and Rorschach are indeed Superhuman, can somebody please explain what their powers are and how and where did they get them?

That question should take care of this little debate. Not a fair question IMO

Ozy is clearly super human, but the dude achieved it through training

Nite Owl is definitely super human. No real world human can replicate what he did to those thugs. Rorschach isn't as impressive as Nite Owl, but he and Nite Owl definitely have super human durability. No one can take the damage they did from Ozy and not even be bruised like they did.

The argument that they are not super human is pretty strange.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Real world fighting absolutely applies,

Oh God. No wonder this is hopeless.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Not a fair question IMO

Ozy is clearly super human, but the dude achieved it through training

Nite Owl is definitely super human. No real world human can replicate what he did to those thugs. Rorschach isn't as impressive as Nite Owl, but he and Nite Owl definitely have super human durability. No one can take the damage they did from Ozy and not even be bruised like they did.

The argument that they are not super human is pretty strange.

They are super human just as much as all the skilled Main heroes I listed. Even John McClain can be argued to have super human durability. But we wouldn't call the character super human. He is just a regular Cop in the wrong place at the wrong time. A lot of movie characters have flashes of what we would call superhuman instances. Doesn't mean we should classify them as full on superhumans.
Thats why Die Hard isnt a sci-fi movie that features an enhanced hero.
The Watchmen (sans DM & Ozy) are not super human. Having a few "slight" instances of questionable feats doesnt make it so.

Originally posted by tkitna
Oh God. No wonder this is hopeless.

You realise you are arguing with a guy who has a massive hardon for Ozy right? Like he literally claimed that a pro-Ozy post made by Robtard started to arouse him. Just read through the Vandal Savage vs Ozy thread.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
@ KT Sorry, but even a complete idiot can judge that distance. It is very clearly more than 10 feet. You just have to look at the size of the people, and compare that to the distance they are from the jet. But of course you will downplay anything you can when it involves Cap/Bucky.

Teleporting? LOL She had superspeed and the ability to sense mutant powers. And nice Strawman. I never said they punched faster than him. No, the burden of proof remains with you to back your claim with evidence, from the film creators, about the sound effects. Until you do, it's hot air.

Anyway, you are unlikely to stop downplaying Bucky's feat, and even less likely to provide genuine evidence over your "swooshing" claim, so I see no further point in wasting my time responding to you.

You said they displayed such speed in X-Men, which is a flat out fie. We were SPECIFICALLY talking about movement. Punching and dodging movement. I was illustrating that clearly Ozy is faster than any normal human or a peak human. This wasn't displayed in how fast he was moving his arms, but via logic and other feats. We were SPECIFICALLY talking about those things. Not movement via teleporting. Jesus Christ, this was beyond obvious. You're better than this VD, maybe not, but you should be if you're not.

You didn't answer my question, is spiderman faster than Bucky or Cap? IF so, why wasn't he punching any faster than them, and in fact, appeared to punch slower than them? Which illustrates the point I'm making, and a common theme in movies, they don't always illustrate exactly how fast somebody is during h2h fights so the audience gets a good show of the fight. Do you disagree that directors do this sometimes?

Now, how do we know Ozy is likely much faster than the director showed in his fights. Simple

1. Though not on the same level of proof as my movie feats, the DC database does illustrate something very pertinent to the discussion. N.O. and R are both expert martial artist. It even notes that they can take out multiple prison level guys with ease. So if they are THAT good, and they can't even land a blow on Ozy.... two things must be present

A. Ozy must have heightened reactions and perception in order for him to not even have a single blow landed on him by expert martial artists. There is no way around that.

B. His skill level must be so far above them, that he can casually monologue as he's proceeding to not have a blow landed on him. His skill level would be off the charts for not a single blow to land on him, sometimes with his back turned.

2. If Ozy is fast enough to dodge bullet fire in his assassination attempt and finish off the assassin as he did. Or when he caught the bullet with his hand... while basically not even looking and his hands at his side. He moved his arm so fast and with SUCH PRECISION... that he was able to raise his hand after the bullet was fired and still catch it. If he can move his arm that fast... he can clearly punch faster than what was shown.


It's like superman in comics.. if he can read every single book in the world on medicine in a minute.. and he's shown actually flipping pages... Well... why wouldn't he be able to punch someone 100 times in a second? He should easily be able to. Or even a thousands times in a second. You can't read every book on a subject in moments and yet not be able to punch someone that fast. You could. Just cause superman isn't shown doing it, doesn't mean he can't. Use your damn brain. If Ozy can move his hand that fast and is dodging fire... he can punch faster than what was shown. Hence the SWOOSH noises. So if they weren't included to illustrate he's faster than them... what was the sound effect for?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Real world fighting absolutely applies, in fact, it's the ONLY criteria to judge what a peak human would be. IF a peak human is unlikely to beat 15 big tough strong guy types at the same time... well... he's unlikely to do so. We define what peak human is, well by what human can do. It's the most relevant factor here, so it's comical you're saying it doesn't apply. We would call them kicks or punches or throws or counters if not for real world fighting. It's the basis for every thing we're trying to interpret. Nice try though.

So now, a peak human imo would not be able to fight off that many dudes, while not having a blow landed on them. That's above peak human in reality. Even if we call them peak human for fighting, as I've unquestionably showed, they are superhuman durability wise. Which you must agree with, seeing as you quoted my post but took the durability part off. Clearly a concession on your part, and I accept.

If this is really your definition of what peak human and superhuman is, then you're in the wrong forum.

Based on your definition even guys like IP man, Hitgirl, Boyka and majority of Arnold schwarzenegger characters would all be superhuman.

Originally posted by Arachnid1

Ozy is clearly super human, but the dude achieved it through training

So Nite Owl and Rorschach obtained superhuman durability through training? That explains everything.



Its called a movie. Its not real. Like somebody has already mentioned, Jason Bourne could have easily done the samething as Nite Owl and Rorschach. Does that make him superhuman in your book? How about Bruce Lee? He beat many more highly trained people than mere street thugs so he must be superhuman too right?



Being able to do something normal humans have trouble doing doesnt automatically make you superhuman. Your definition of the word is skewed.

Originally posted by FrothByte
If this is really your definition of what peak human and superhuman is, then you're in the wrong forum.

Based on your definition even guys like IP man, Hitgirl, Boyka and majority of Arnold schwarzenegger characters would all be superhuman. They kind of are

I agree with KT. I figure we judge super human off off anything that's above the capabilities of peak human. A peak human is anyone that maxes all the possible stats of a real world human, hence 'peak'. If you can take out an entire room of armed and trained soldiers at age 14 like Hitgirl, or catch a bullet like Ozy, you are super human since it can't be achieved by a normal human.

Have I just been going off the wrong criteria for peak human or super human my entire life? Thats how I always judged it

Originally posted by tkitna
So Nite Owl and Rorschach obtained superhuman durability through training? That explains everything.



Its called a movie. Its not real. Like somebody has already mentioned, Jason Bourne could have easily done the samething as Nite Owl and Rorschach. Does that make him superhuman in your book? How about Bruce Lee? He beat many more highly trained people than mere street thugs so he must be superhuman too right?



Being able to do something normal humans have trouble doing doesnt automatically make you superhuman. Your definition of the word is skewed. Thats just it though. They do things that no normal human can do. It's not that we have trouble with it. It's that its flat out impossible. Your first sentence talking about Nite Owl and Rorschach having superhuman durability that cant be achieved through training proves my point and is exactly what I'm trying to say. They are super human.

Originally posted by FrothByte
If this is really your definition of what peak human and superhuman is, then you're in the wrong forum.

Based on your definition even guys like IP man, Hitgirl, Boyka and majority of Arnold schwarzenegger characters would all be superhuman.

Tell me something.. how do we define what a peak human is.. if we don't look at what a peak human can or has done? Explain how we define something if not looking at real world humans. Expand please.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
They kind of are

I agree with KT. I figure we judge super human off off anything that's above the capabilities peak human. A peak human is anyone that maxes all the possible stats of a real world human, hence 'peak'. If you can take out an entire room of armed and trained soldiers at age 14 like Hitgirl, or catch a bullet like Ozy, you are super human since it can't be achieved by a normal human.

Have I just been going off the wrong criteria for peak human or super human my entire life? Thats how I always judged it

In the real world, that's how we would judge it. But in action movies? Heck even side characters like Lois Lane have some durability feats that put them above peak human. Where do we draw the line? As soon as a character does something above what a peak human can do then they become superhuman? That means nearly all action movie characters become superhuman. Example: Dutch from Predator was able to shoot an arrow through a tree trunk. In the real world that impossible for any human to do. Do we consider him superhuman?

Originally posted by Arachnid1
They kind of are

I agree with KT. I figure we judge super human off off anything that's above the capabilities of peak human. A peak human is anyone that maxes all the possible stats of a real world human, hence 'peak'. If you can take out an entire room of armed and trained soldiers at age 14 like Hitgirl, or catch a bullet like Ozy, you are super human since it can't be achieved by a normal human.

Have I just been going off the wrong criteria for peak human or super human my entire life? Thats how I always judged it

Thats just it though. They do things that no normal human can do. It's not that we have trouble with it. It's that its flat out impossible. Your first sentence talking about Nite Owl and Rorschach having superhuman durability that cant be achieved through training proves my point and is exactly what I'm trying to say. They are super human.

Right? How the f else do we define what a peak human is, if not looking at what humans are capable of? That IS the criteria of defining peak human or superhuman. It's like trying to define what beyond human level intellect is.. and then going... but we don't judge that based on human level intellect capabilities... WTF.. that is Exactly what we use to define it. How else can you define it? For God's sake the word Human is in peak-Human and Super-Human... yet we don't look at human capabilities to define them? Now I've heard it all...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You said they displayed such speed in X-Men, which is a flat out fie. We were SPECIFICALLY talking about movement. Punching and dodging movement. I was illustrating that clearly Ozy is faster than any normal human or a peak human. This wasn't displayed in how fast he was moving his arms, but via logic and other feats. We were SPECIFICALLY talking about those things. Not movement via teleporting. Jesus Christ, this was beyond obvious. You're better than this VD, maybe not, but you should be if you're not.

You didn't answer my question, is spiderman faster than Bucky or Cap? IF so, why wasn't he punching any faster than them, and in fact, appeared to punch slower than them? Which illustrates the point I'm making, and a common theme in movies, they don't always illustrate exactly how fast somebody is during h2h fights so the audience gets a good show of the fight. Do you disagree that directors do this sometimes?

Now, how do we know Ozy is likely much faster than the director showed in his fights. Simple

1. Though not on the same level of proof as my movie feats, the DC database does illustrate something very pertinent to the discussion. N.O. and R are both expert martial artist. It even notes that they can take out multiple prison level guys with ease. So if they are THAT good, and they can't even land a blow on Ozy.... two things must be present

A. Ozy must have heightened reactions and perception in order for him to not even have a single blow landed on him by expert martial artists. There is no way around that.

B. His skill level must be so far above them, that he can casually monologue as he's proceeding to not have a blow landed on him. His skill level would be off the charts for not a single blow to land on him, sometimes with his back turned.

2. If Ozy is fast enough to dodge bullet fire in his assassination attempt and finish off the assassin as he did. Or when he caught the bullet with his hand... while basically not even looking and his hands at his side. He moved his arm so fast and with SUCH PRECISION... that he was able to raise his hand after the bullet was fired and still catch it. If he can move his arm that fast... he can clearly punch faster than what was shown.


It's like superman in comics.. if he can read every single book in the world on medicine in a minute.. and he's shown actually flipping pages... Well... why wouldn't he be able to punch someone 100 times in a second? He should easily be able to. Or even a thousands times in a second. You can't read every book on a subject in moments and yet not be able to punch someone that fast. You could. Just cause superman isn't shown doing it, doesn't mean he can't. Use your damn brain. If Ozy can move his hand that fast and is dodging fire... he can punch faster than what was shown. Hence the SWOOSH noises. So if they weren't included to illustrate he's faster than them... what was the sound effect for?

That wall of text is irrelevant, as I never made claims about anyone's actual speed. I have never stated that Ozy is not fast. I know Ozy is fast, because he can catch a bullet from a gun with a muzzle velocity of between 209 and 300m/s. All I said was the age of the film is not really an excuse for anything that the director did not choose to visually include, because we have seen enhanced speed depicted, in numerous ways, across various films predating Watchmen. You, as usual, went and read what you wanted to read in my posts, instead of what my actual argument was. Something which you have done numerous times in the past with me and others.

And doesn't work like that. You made the claim. You need to provide concrete evidence from the creators. Not speculate and try to flip the burden of proof onto me. Also, it's truly astounding the length of post you put out over an imagined slight against Ozy's speed.

So Nite Owl and Rorschach are superhuman although they were never identified as ever being so in the comic or movie and nobody can actually provide proof of a valid origin of said powers or what they might even be. Gotcha. Might as well be arguing that Dustin Hoffmans Rainman character was superhuman too because he's better with numbers than most people..

Originally posted by FrothByte
In the real world, that's how we would judge it. But in action movies? Heck even side characters like Lois Lane have some durability feats that put them above peak human. Where do we draw the line? As soon as a character does something above what a peak human can do then they become superhuman? That means nearly all action movie characters become superhuman. Example: Dutch from Predator was able to shoot an arrow through a tree trunk. In the real world that impossible for any human to do. Do we consider him superhuman?

Bud, Dutch was the best of the best when it comes to Spec Ops... He turned around and fought somebody, again, superhuman and was holding his own. Losing, but still competing. He was beating the Predator and the game he was best at... hunting. You can call Dutch whatever you want.. but certainly never simply call him human level. He's beyond that, which is again, the point here.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Those clips are actually pretty decent durability feats for Bucky as well, considering how many hard hits he takes from Steve and just keeps coming. Cap had to choke him out to stop him, and even that was only temporary.
Especially the part were cap kicked him into a car with enough force to dent it, then kneed him again into the car and dented it again. Bucky shrugged that off like nothing. Also, he got shot on his glasses. Bulletproof or not, that will hurt a lot but he shook it off like nothing too

In that case a better question is "Who ISNT superhuman" in Movies?
Especially Action movies where apparently everyone is superhuman.

Originally posted by tkitna
So Nite Owl and Rorschach are superhuman although they were never identified as ever being so in the comic or movie and nobody can actually provide proof of a valid origin of said powers or what they might even be. Gotcha. Might as well be arguing that Dustin Hoffmans Rainman character was superhuman too because he's better with numbers than most people..

Originally posted by FrothByte
In the real world, that's how we would judge it. But in action movies? Heck even side characters like Lois Lane have some durability feats that put them above peak human. Where do we draw the line? As soon as a character does something above what a peak human can do then they become superhuman? That means nearly all action movie characters become superhuman. Example: Dutch from Predator was able to shoot an arrow through a tree trunk. In the real world that impossible for any human to do. Do we consider him superhuman? I want to say no, but its hard to say

The problem with that is, if we go by your and tkitna's criteria, you have to be enhanced in some way relevant to the plot to be considered super human. For example, you two would probably consider Cap or Winter Soldier to be super human right? Now, imagine a completely new character whos considered to be a non super powered individual like Nite Owl, but he can replicate Caps feats. Say he was never enhanced in any way, and achieved it through training. If we go off your criteria, he isn't considered super human because he was never outright stated to have powers. Despite this, he's the exact same as Cap.

Just look at Ozy. The dude caught a bullet. Something neither Cap or WS can replicate. Despite this, he has no powers and achieved super human reflexes through training. Do we consider him super human or just a normal human?

Originally posted by Inhuman
In that case a better question is "Who ISNT superhuman" in Movies?
Especially Action movies where apparently everyone is superhuman.

Pre-SS Serum Steve Rogers?

Originally posted by Arachnid1
The dude caught a bullet. Something neither Cap or WS can replicate
Really?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
That wall of text is irrelevant, as I never made claims about anyone's actual speed. I have never stated that Ozy is not fast. I know Ozy is fast, because he can catch a bullet from a gun with a muzzle velocity of between 209 and 300m/s. All I said was the age of the film is not really an excuse for anything that the director did not choose to visually include, because we have seen enhanced speed depicted, in numerous ways, across various films predating Watchmen. You, as usual, went and read what you wanted to read in my posts, instead of what my actual argument was. Something which you have done numerous times in the past with me and others.

And doesn't work like that. You made the claim. You need to provide concrete evidence from the creators. Not speculate and try to flip the burden of proof onto me. Also, it's truly astounding the length of post you put out over an imagined slight against Ozy's speed.

You didn't answer the questions:

1. Is Spiderman faster than Bucky or Cap?
A. If so, why does it appear Bucky and Cap are exchanging blows faster?

2. Is it not a common theme in movies to slow fight scenes down so the viewing audience can perceive it better?

3. Can superman indeed punch 50 times in a second, if he was able to read every book in the entire world written on medicine in moments. He should be able to right? Well, if the comic book artists never shown him doing so, does that mean he can't?

A. Same thing here, if Ozy can move his arm so fast that he can catch a bullet, while barely looking. Shouldn't he be able to punch faster than what he appeared to? Simple question.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Pre-SS Serum Steve Rogers?

I dont know. He was a small guy but he took beatings like a champ. I would say that classifies as superhuman durability.

Originally posted by HulkIsHulk
Really? Don't tell me people started arguing Cap and Bucky to be bullet timers

Not getting into that argument. I'll stick with the point of my post for now

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Bud, Dutch was the best of the best when it comes to Spec Ops... He turned around and fought somebody, again, superhuman and was holding his own. Losing, but still competing. He was beating the Predator and the game he was best at... hunting. You can call Dutch whatever you want.. but certainly never simply call him human level. He's beyond that, which is again, the point here.

So you're saying Dutch is superhuman, right? How bout Indiana Jones? How bout Rambo? Even Lois Lane from the first Superman movie?

Originally posted by Arachnid1

The problem with that is, if we go by your and tkitna's criteria, you have to be enhanced in some way relevant to the plot to be considered super human. For example, you two would probably consider Cap or Winter Soldier to be super human right?

Yes and Yes. To be Superhuman, you have to be special in a way that sets you apart from any other human. Just approaching a certain limit through training doesnt get it. If so, any human could achieve those goals if they wanted it bad enough.



Thats a bad example because its impossible. No length of training will ever allow a human being to rip doors off of cars or throw motorcycles at will.



The bullet catching is a great feat and I do believe there is something more to that then meets the eye. No amount of training can propel a normal human being to those types of reflexes. Either Ozy is actually superhuman to some extent or it was a flat out parlor trick.

Originally posted by Inhuman
I dont know. He was a small guy but he took beatings like a champ. I would say that classifies as superhuman durability.


Agreed. The guy in the alley punched him at least 3 times and Rogers wasnt even out.

I'd classify Ozy as low level superhuman. Same level as Cap and WS. Night Owl, Roscharch and Comwedian are peak human however. At least as far as movie characters go.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You didn't answer the questions:

1. Is Spiderman faster than Bucky or Cap?
A. If so, why does it appear Bucky and Cap are exchanging blows faster?

2. Is it not a common theme in movies to slow fight scenes down so the viewing audience can perceive it better?

3. Can superman indeed punch 50 times in a second, if he was able to read every book in the entire world written on medicine in moments. He should be able to right? Well, if the comic book artists never shown him doing so, does that mean he can't?

A. Same thing here, if Ozy can move his arm so fast that he can catch a bullet, while barely looking. Shouldn't he be able to punch faster than what he appeared to? Simple question.

I don't need to answer any dumb, obvious questions, because I never made any claims that contradict them. All I said was that enhanced/superspeed has been visually depicted in numerous ways before Watchmen, so if there is anything visually lacking, it's not because of the film's age. That's it. You, on the other hand, did make a claim, and have yet to provide more than your opinion and speculation as evidence. And I highly doubt you are going to.

You know what, let's cut all the BS now and get to the facts. I'm sick and tired of all this nonsense about Bucky being on the same level with Ozy, and same saying above. Okay then, provide the feat that exceeds what Ozy did. It must exceed since people are claiming WS wins and is better in these areas

1. Show me a reaction/speed feat from Bucky that exceeds Ozy catching a bullet. Not just the speed to catch a bullet. But having your back turned, arms at your side, and still react fast enough to move your arm up and catch it with your hand

::Insert Bucky feat here::

2. While we're talking reactions... I'd like to see reaction/Speed feat on par with these from Ozy
A. During the assassination attempt, he was shown moving fast enough to avoid fire, and then casually dodge the last point blank shot while disarming his foe
B. Similarly during his fight with the comedian. He's shown at the door more... roughly 15 or 20 feet from the Comedian... Yet he's still able to react to the Comedian going for his gun even further away, yet be in a perfect position of to the side, seemingly out of now where to grab the gun.

::Insert Bucky feats here::

2. Skill - We see Ozy casually dealing with expert martial artists as if they were nothing. Guys likely much more versed in MA than either Bucky or Cap.. and certainly knowing more variety of MA. Yet these guys were unable to land blows on Ozy. Sometimes with his back turned. Now show me feats from Bucky where he appears this skilled and doesn't have any blows landed on him by expert MA's

::Insert Bucky feats here::

3. Lastly, I'd like to see the feats of Bucky sending guys flying with his blows in the same vein as what Ozy did.

:: Insert Bucky feat here:


Let's see where the chips stack up

Originally posted by FrothByte
So you're saying Dutch is superhuman, right? How bout Indiana Jones? How bout Rambo? Even Lois Lane from the first Superman movie?

Actually I never used the term Superhuman... though he very well could be. At the very least, he's peak human.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually I never used the term Superhuman... though he very well could be. At the very least, he's peak human.

Peak human I agree with. But using your definition: Dutch was able to do feats that no peak human in the real world would be able to replicate. Does that make him superhuman in your book?

Question for KT: Do you consider Cap and WS to be in the same strength level?

Originally posted by Inhuman
I dont know. He was a small guy but he took beatings like a champ. I would say that classifies as superhuman durability.

Damn, got me there. How about Sam Jackson in Unbreakable then? He was like the opposite of superhuman.

Originally posted by tkitna
Yes and Yes. To be Superhuman, you have to be special in a way that sets you apart from any other human. Just approaching a certain limit through training doesnt get it. If so, any human could achieve those goals it they wanted it bad enough.

Thats a bad example because its impossible. No length of training will ever allow a human being to rip doors off of cars or throw motorcycles at will. Thats exactly the point of my example! We have fictional characters who achieve absolutely impossible feats that go beyond what any normal human can do, despite the fact that they were never given enhancements plot wise. They have super human abilities, but you don't consider them super human. Your post also shows that you agree that anything above what a normal human can achieve through training is superhuman. Its a bit contradictory

Originally posted by tkitna
The bullet catching is a great feat and I do believe there is something more to that then meets the eye. No amount of training can propel a normal human being to those types of reflexes. Either Ozy is actually superhuman to some extent or it was a flat out parlor trick.I agree with Frothbytes assessment of Ozy being a low level super human in the same league as Cap, but below someone like Spidey. Despite this, to consider him super human in any capacity would be wrong going off your criteria because he was never enhanced by the plot

Its kind of a hard thing to assess, but I've always grouped characters into tiers depending solely on their feats/stats/abilites completely ignoring the plot. You have low tier stats characters like Punisher, Constantine or Question. Then you have the low level super human characters like Cap, Ozy who perform impossible feats (some of these characters achieved this teir through training alone as opposed to plot related powers), but not to the extent of the next teir of characters like Daredevil or Spiderman. Then you start getting into higher end characters like Thor or Hulk. After that you have god tier people like Superman or Flash.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Damn, got me there. How about Sam Jackson in Unbreakable then? He was like the opposite of superhuman.

His mind was superhuman. His schemes and planing were above normal

Originally posted by Inhuman
His mind was superhuman. His schemes and planing were above normal

Ok... guess I am going to have to start looking for people who died before doing anything. ... providing there aren't flashbacks later.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In the real world, that's how we would judge it. But in action movies? Heck even side characters like Lois Lane have some durability feats that put them above peak human. Where do we draw the line? As soon as a character does something above what a peak human can do then they become superhuman? That means nearly all action movie characters become superhuman. Example: Dutch from Predator was able to shoot an arrow through a tree trunk. In the real world that impossible for any human to do. Do we consider him superhuman?
Originally posted by Inhuman
His mind was superhuman. His schemes and planing were above normal
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Ok... guess I am going to have to start looking for people who died before doing anything. ... providing there aren't flashbacks later. I know you guys are joking, but this actually kind of makes and supports FrothBytes point above. I didn't really get it at first, but I can see what he's saying. It's a hard thing to judge, and I'm not completely sure were to draw the line lol

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I know you guys are joking, but this actually kind of makes and supports FrothBytes point above. I didn't really get it at first, but I can see what he's saying. It's a hard thing to judge, and I'm not completely sure were to draw the line lol

I retyped some stuff on my post. Still stands for this ongoing argument.

Originally posted by Inhuman
They are super human just as much as all the skilled Main heroes I listed. Even John McClain can be argued to have super human durability. But we wouldn't call the character super human. He is just a regular Cop in the wrong place at the wrong time. A lot of movie characters have flashes of what we would call superhuman instances. Doesn't mean we should classify them as full on superhumans.
Thats why Die Hard isnt a sci-fi movie that features an enhanced hero.
The Watchmen (sans DM & Ozy) are not super human. Having a few "slight" instances of questionable feats doesnt make it so.

I mean Steven Segal & J.C. Van Damme characters have feats of tossing people 10 feet+ and breaking bones, arms with ease. Dodging gun fire at very close range. But I wouldnt call him super human.
I do agree that some characters are hard to judge and there is a thin line.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Peak human I agree with. But using your definition: Dutch was able to do feats that no peak human in the real world would be able to replicate. Does that make him superhuman in your book?

He's clearly superhuman in some areas. Not all, but clearly some. Which is kind of the crux of the argument. Doing one thing that is superhuman might not get you classified as superhuman. Doing things over and over that are superhuman or being superhuman in a few areas might.

For example if your Durability and skill are superhuman, yet your speed and agility are only peak human. Well, that makes it hard to define doesn't it. Which is he. Do you believe somebody needs to be superhuman in every way or can you be superhuman in some things but not others.... yet still have the superhuman tag?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He's clearly superhuman in some areas. Not all, but clearly some. Which is kind of the crux of the argument. Doing one thing that is superhuman might not get you classified as superhuman. Doing things over and over that are superhuman or being superhuman in a few areas might.

For example if your Durability and skill are superhuman, yet your speed and agility are only peak human. Well, that makes it hard to define doesn't it. Which is he. Do you believe somebody needs to be superhuman in every way or can you be superhuman in some things but not others.... yet still have the superhuman tag?

I think the character needs to consistently display superhuman performances in at least 1 area. For example, Jessica Jones has consistently displayed superhuman strength though not superhuman durability. That makes her superhuman in my book.

Dutch has only accomplished 1 superhuman feat whereas in everything else he's portrayed as peak human, which to me does not make him superhuman.

Same can be said for Roscharch, Nightowl and Comedian. They have some few superhuman feats, but it doesn't happen consistently enough for me to consider them superhuman.

Originally posted by Inhuman
I retyped some stuff on my post. Still stands for this ongoing argument.



I mean Steven Segal & J.C. Van Damme characters have feats of tossing people 10 feet+ and breaking bones, arms with ease. Dodging gun fire at very close range. But I wouldnt call him super human.
I do agree that some characters are hard to judge and there is a thin line.

I don't dispute it can be hard to judge, and the criteria subjective. No argument there. Difference is Segal nor J.C.V.D. displayed superhuman attributes in different areas. Example, durability and speed. Sure they kicked dudes butts the way N.O. and R did, but they've never taken blows like they did. They were never shown fighting a dude who can casually, while doing a monologue, sending people flying that way. I can't recall a movie where they were taking blows such as that, and repeated blows. I agree that N.O. and R are tough to define. Maybe they are more peak human than superhuman. Could be. At the very least though.. they displayed some superhuman abilities, and guess what, they couldn't land a blow on Ozy. That's telling.

This just in, all action movies heroes are now superhumans.

To quote the Incredibles

Helen Parr (to her son): "Everyone's special, Dash."
Dash: "Which is another way of saying no one is."

Syndrome (to Mr. Incredible): "I'll give them the most spectacular heroics anyone's ever seen. And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so that everyone can be superheroes. Everyone can be super. And when everyone's super, no one will be."

Originally posted by FrothByte
I think the character needs to consistently display superhuman performances in at least 1 area. For example, Jessica Jones has consistently displayed superhuman strength though not superhuman durability. That makes her superhuman in my book.

Dutch has only accomplished 1 superhuman feat whereas in everything else he's portrayed as peak human, which to me does not make him superhuman.

Same can be said for Roscharch, Nightowl and Comedian. They have some few superhuman feats, but it doesn't happen consistently enough for me to consider them superhuman.

I'd say that is mostly a fair assessment Froth, so I won't quibble with it much. We're in agreement it's hard to define for N.O. and R, and I think it is as well. To me though, whether we want to call them peak or super, Ozy still treated them like feebs. Which is again the point here. Anytime WS went up against anybody with enhanced stats he didn't feeb them. Not once. Ozy has, and multiple times at that.

Still waiting on somebody to take up the feat challenge I posted on the last page. For all the people saying Bucky wins, and he's superior in these areas... Well, then it shouldn't be hard to post feats exceeding what I listed. I should be really easy. Yet, nobody can. Odd.

Feats have already been posted, you're just doing your usual quan-like trolling.

Come to think of it, why are we even bothering with this anymore? Theres only two people that thinks Ozy wins. We have Civil War coming up soon enough which will remind everybody how silly that opinion truly is.

There are five people on the first page alone that think Ozy wins. You just happen to be debating with two of them.

And sure, maybe WS will get some great feats to net the win once CW comes out. Until then though, this is Ozy's win.

Originally posted by tkitna
Come to think of it, why are we even bothering with this anymore? Theres only two people that thinks Ozy wins. We have Civil War coming up soon enough which will remind everybody how silly that opinion truly is.

Yeah, OK there kiddo. Then post the feats that exceed what I listed for Ozy.. since you believe he's superior it should be no issue. Only you've ran and ducked from post. I accept your concession that Ozy is simply better and WS doesn't match him in the areas you claimed, let alone exceeds him.

Also., where did you learn basic arithmetic? More people voted for Ozy than 2

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. Show me a reaction/speed feat from Bucky that exceeds Ozy catching a bullet. Not just the speed to catch a bullet. But having your back turned, arms at your side, and still react fast enough to move your arm up and catch it with your hand

Ozy's back wasn't turned when Silk Specter II shot him. He was looking right at her iirc. Still pretty boss tho

He wasn't directly facing her though... He seems to slightly contorting his body in order to "roll" with the bullet. That is what I meant. He already seemed to be turning his body as the shot was fired. Regardless, I'd like to see a feat that exceeds this speed and reaction feat from Bucky. Still waiting.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yeah, OK there kiddo. Then post the feats that exceed what I listed for Ozy.. since you believe he's superior it should be no issue. Only you've ran and ducked from post. I accept your concession that Ozy is simply better and WS doesn't match him in the areas you claimed, let alone exceeds him.

Were you asking me to provide feats for Bucky this whole time? I thought you were asking another poster. Oh well. So basically you want me to provide a feat that will prove that Bucky can catch a bullet? Has Bucky ever tried to catch a bullet in his movie? If not, I suppose I cant provide one for you.

Lets flip to the other side. Provide me proof Ozy can withstand a punch to the face from Buckys robotic arm. See how this works?

ABC logic actually works in this thread. Ozy beat up a couple of weak sauce street levelers while Bucky went toe to toe with Captain America who is leagues above Ozy. Seems clear to me.

Bucky wins.