Best and Worst StarWars Duels

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PVS
I figured this is a nice topic for debate.
people's opinions on which are the best/worst duels in star wars seem
to contrast sharply. a perfect example is the yoda vs. dooku duel. people
either seem to love it or hate it. and often it is argued that the luke/vader
duels are better than the obi/maul duel...and vice versa.

i guess ill kick it off by ranking them in my opinion of best to worst(or least
exciting)

1-maul vs obiwan
2-luke vs vader ep5
3-luke vs vader ep6
4-yoda vs dooku
5-obiwan vs. dooku
6-quigon vs maul & obiwan/quigon vs. maul
7-ben vs. vader ep4
8-anakin vs. dooku

i separated obiwan vs maul from the rest of the ep1 duel because i feel that
in itself, it was the most kicka$$ duel in the saga...however fleeting it was.

some dislike the dooku vs yoda duel for the seeming lack of coordination
between them. i somewhat agree. it did not ruin it for me, but brought the
duel down a few notches for me. see, the problem is you have a stunt double
fighting a cg character, which must have been a total b**** to create, so i find
the flaws forgivable.

however the anakin vs dooku duel was pretty lame for me. they fought as if
they were frozen in carbonite below the waste. it just seemed like they were
two ravers in a nightclub waving their glowsticks around. i didn't find that as
forgivable. dooku is 80+ years old, so i dont expect him to jump around, but
why couldn't they bring the stunt double in on that duel? plus the scene where
anakin gets his arm sliced off was too clumsy, and anticlimactic.

when luke got his arm cut off, i was like "HOLY S***!!!!!!!" but with this duel
i was like "huh...he got his arm cut off..." thats my view anyway.

any thoughts?

darth_surgent
Yes, so far Maul Vs. Obi-Wan is my favorite as well. I also really liked Yoda Vs. Dooku, but the Maul/Obi-Wan duel is 100% real fighting, and a bigger triumph of choreographed fighting in real life than Yoda Vs. Dooku which is much more digital.

Darth_Duffy
shouldnt really be in this section though should it? as its not really ep3 related

Dou
Definitely Obi-Wan vs. Maul! This is my favorite. I totally agree to what surgent said. I also like Yoda vs Dooku, but with digital characters you have more possibilities to create awesome animations and stunts which are hardly possible in real life. Obi vs. Maul hasn't got any digital stuff in it and it is still perfectly choreographed. That's why I like this one most (Qui-Gons part included).

PVS
understood, but the other forums are "ep 1 & 2" and "ep 4-6"
since this encompases the whole saga, i didnt know where to post it.

Jedi Priestess
PVS I notice you havent put the anticipated duels yet to come and I was thankful for that. For me the best duel by far was quigon & obiwan vs. maul. The intense action of two Jedi versus a Sith Lord with a double bladed saber was awesome. The choreography was just a thing of beauty to me. Next in line would have to be the final Vader versus Luke duel.

Ghetto Goblin
ya, just wait until episode three, man, that is gonna be some awesome stuff. the best duels are probley goig to be there.

Sith Master X
To me, the best duel of the saga, and I know that I'll get bombed for saying this, but the best duels for me was AOTC. Yes they were quick, but it had a good feel to it.

I loved when Obi-Wan first goes in for the attack on Dooku, spins around and goes on defense as the two quickly swing their sabers 4 times left and right.

And to me, nothing beats Lee's "But by our skills with a lightsaber" and the pan around shot of Yoda as he stares Dooku down with that "Lets rock" expression.

Yes, the TPM duels were great, but to me, people mistake Maul between being a good swordsman and his martial arts style appeal. He had skill with his saber, but most of the cool effects we see out of maul are his flips, his spins, and his kicks. As for Count Dooku, he did none of that, but yet showed all of his skill through the force and through swordsmanship, and so far, Dooku is the best Swordsman I've seen.

PVS
see, i think they played that up way too much. it seemed like a gimmick.
not yoda fighting, just that pan around him and the buildup music...it just seemed...unstarwars i guess.

i just think it should have been more subtle on the intro.

NoMeN
WHY THE HELL IS THIS IN THE EPISODE 3 FORUM!?!?!?! WHY?!?!?!?!

Ghetto Goblin
where else would it be, PVS already explained it.
c'mon, get with it.

PVS
oh dont be a wanna-be mod.
if ush does not like this thread here,
im sure he will take the liberty to move it.

EDIT>>>no GG i wasnt referring to you.

Ghetto Goblin
i hope your not talking to me, i would never want to be a mod as a job, that would be kinda boring, i like to go to all of the forums.

NoMeN
nop, i dont want to be a mod, i dont have much time. but i just dont understand why a thread like this has to be in the episode 3 forum. this thread is a discussion about best and worst starwars duels. i think it should go to the starwars OT forum. it isnt related with episode3, there is no point on posting this kind of threads here.

PVS
look, im going to explain one more time, and then im ignoring the next condesending post. listen up

mad THIS IS NOT JUST OT>>>THIS IS THE ENTIRE SAGA....
GET IT?... ?SI O NO? mad

(takes a deap breath)
there is no forum for the entire saga, so i posted it here.

NoMeN
ok.... so just because ITS the entrie saga it has to go to the episode 3 forum? we havent even seen a episode 3 duel!!!!!!!

PVS
look, noone else seems to mind, so why dont you just let it go?

EDIT>>>(reply to your following post, because i dont want to tie the thread up with drama)

im not taking it personally, but i am still pretty irritated. either report this to ush if you think its so wrong, petition for them to create a "star wars saga" forum, or just leave it alone.

NoMeN
i just think, we should keep everthing organized, its nothing personal.

Havoc X
is that all you do is complain nomen

PVS
LET IT GO...please...pretty please? ...with sugar on top?

Ghetto Goblin
OMG what the heck just shut up.

he might not visit the other star wars forums, and so since it is referance to ALL of the episodes, he's going to put it on the one that he goes to.

unless that is, he does go to the others, in that case i'm out.

PVS
getto, i was talking to the guy who jabbed at nomen.
i dont feel like having a battle royal thread, so drop it please

Sith Master X
I understand what you're saying. wink Yeah they did build that scene up, I kind of liked that music that went with it, but it wasn't on the soundtrack! mad Oh well, that's just me. Maybe the Yoda Vs. Sidious duel will be even better, and hopefully a bit longer as well.

PVS
i get the feeling the yoda/sidious duel will be 90% posturing and trash talking...(like the yoda/dooku duel) but i'm fine with that. i always wanted to hear a conversation/conflict between the ultimate jedi and ultimate sith.

as far as the yoda buildup, i remember seeing the AotC commercial for the DVD and they showed that same scene with no music whatsoever. just the click as the saber flew into yoda's hand, and the sound of it igniting, and i found it to be way cooler.

Sith Master X
Dude you're right, I've seen that as well and it's really cool also. It it's on the TV Spot section of the AOTC DVD. They pan around Yoda with no music, just the ignition of the saber, and I liked that as well.

Did you happen to see the one where they make it look like it's a Spider-Man trailer, but it's Yoda. laughing out loud It says "This Summer......Take the ultimate spin, with this years....greatest action hero....then it cuts and shows Yoda pulling out his saber.

Shadow_King
1.luke and vadar episode 5
2.luke and vadar episode 6
3.obi wan and vadar episode 4

PVS
yeah smx, and i also had the displeasure of seeing the
"WHO DA MAN? YODA DA MAN" commercial big grin

i guess shadow king doesn't like the PT duels

Anakin2Vader
I like that idea. I had heard that the fighting would be extremely fast in the Yoda v Sidious battle so I hope that there are some breaks for some interaction between the two as well as some force powers used.

I also remember hearing that there was at least some dialouge that was cut from the Ep 2 Lightsaber scenes as well as Dooku fighting with two sabers, his and a blue one.

As for Obi v Anakin I think there will be alot of trash talking heading into the fight then throughout it rather than them breaking the fighting off at points to talk.

Ken Benobi
Is this just Jedi duals, or duals in general? If it is duals in general, you can't forget when Obi-Wan fought Jenga Fett on the landing platform, that scene kicked...

And my favorite Jedi duals are:
1) Luke vs Vader Episode 5
2) Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs Maul Episode 1
3) Luke vs Vader/vs Emperor Episode 6

(and no need to mention I think Anakin vs Jedi Council is gonna be good big grin )

NoFate007
I'm including what I'll assume will be the coolest out of Episode 3 as well. Although I haven't seen the footage, and I don't know if these are all the duels, I'll throw in what I know.

1. Obi-Wan vs Anakin/Vader
2. Grievous vs Obi-Wan
3. Palpatine vs Yoda
4. Mace vs Palpatine/Anakin
5. Maul vs Obi-Wan
6. Luke vs Vader (Episode VI)
7. Dooku vs Anakin (Episode III)
8. Maul vs Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan
9. Luke vs Vader (Episode V)
10. Dooku vs Yoda
11. Dooku vs Anakin (Episode II)
12. Quick Vader vs random Jedi duels in the temple
13. Dooku vs Obi-Wan
14. Obi-Wan vs Vader (Episode IV)

sithsaber408
Maul vs obi/qui gon
vader vs luke (EP5)
Yoda vs dooku
luke vs vader (ep6)
dooku vs obi/ani
obi vs vader (ep4)

J-Unit
Did You Know That Dooku's face Was All CG?

NoFate007
Yeah its on the Episode II documentaries, it'll be CG again this time around.

PVS
hey give christopher lee a break, he's 80+ years old. big grin of coarse they need CG for him. however, he is technically not cg, since it is a double doing the fighting. his head however is cg.

NoFate007
Yeah his body itself is not changed, but the head is. Lee has a CG head, and another person's body. Poor Lee...but hey, he's a great enough actor that I don't mind having that, it looks fine to me. He's good in the non-fight scenes and he's got an awesome sound, even back when he played Scaramanga. He's just a cool villain.

Jedi Priestess
SMX, Ive said it before and I gotta say it again just cause I CAN

DOOKU WAS A HACK!!!! eek! j/k pal wink

Sith Master X
Don't make me pull out that old sig again JP. stick out tongue

PVS
point taken Benobi. i did intend for it to be lightsaber duels, but i left that out of the title. so by default, that conflict does count, since it is indeed another duel, and a kicka$$ one at that. smile

wolfdraven
1.Luke vs. Vader Ep.6
2.Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs. Maul
3.Yoda vs. Dooku

Red Superfly
The fights between Luke and Vader were definitely the best. My list only counts the Jedi battles. Things like Jango vs Fett shouldn't count, we are talking about the end-of-movie saber fights.

1) Empire Strikes Back - Luke vs Vader. I love how Vader hides in the shadows, like a psycho, and just owns Luke - and ends it with the most famous thing from Star Wars ever.

2) Return Of The Jedi - Luke vs Vader. This fight is awesome. The first time I saw it, and saw Luke flip out all over Vader, the hairs on the back of my neck were standing up, it was brilliant.

Those two were the best by a long shot.

3) Episode IV - Obi vs Vader. This fight is a bit poor in terms of choreography, especially in the post-Matrix world of today, where everybody expects flashy cartwheels and fast motions, but to me this seemed like a proper Jedi fight. Two swordsmen, fighting in a fencing style, and with a personal touch. Classic.

4) Episode 1 - Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon vs Darth Maul. The fight was fast, awesome, and had a much more personal feel, due to what happened to Qui-Gon. I like the fights that get personal. However, this is all well and good, but the fact that I'm not a huge fan of the prequel's approach to the Jedi (i.e. they seem to be super-heroes, igniting the sabers every five seconds), this one gets a nudge down.

5) AOTC - Ani/Obi/Yoda vs Dooku - This fight sucks. Dooku doesn't make the fight as personal, Obi-Wan is plain dissapointing, the Anakin and Dooku "lightshow" is a joke, and I thought Yoda's bit was really stupid and inane, and seemed only to please the slobberring star wars fanboys. It's all style, no substance. Sorry.

Take my opinions with a pinch of salt, I know how tetchy these boards can be.

queeq
My favourite is Empire's. With ROTJ's as a good second. Not the greatest technique or choreography compared to the PT's, but they're dripping with drama. And since I think SW is more drama than a training video for light sabre fighting, I prefer the ones with Luke.

Red Superfly
Yeah that's what I mean - in the Original Trilogy, the duels had dialogue, psychology and were brilliant plot devices.

In the PT, it's like "OK, we need a duel here, because the others had them".

The fights may kill off a character, or badly damage someone like in the prequels, but they are pretty "cold". They just seem, I dunno, run-of-the-mill.

The fights in the PT also look TOO good, and they look choreographed and Matrix-y. Yeah, sure, that's what Jedi's can do, but in the OT, the fights seemed frantic and panic-ridden.

The PT fights seem to be just movements. The lightsabers also seem to lack the "Whoomph!" factor - the sabers from the OT seemed a lot more powerful, because of the restrictions of the fights. The PT seems to make it look all too easy to swing lightsabers around willy-nilly, hacking bits off droids, lopping off heads as though they are nothing.

I actually thought the best duel in AOTC was Jango vs Fett (but that isn't counted here), because it seemed like a FIGHT, a struggle. That's what the PT duels are lacking. The OT duels made them look like a real struggle, and therefore, more of a FIGHT, rather than some flashy dance.

That's just my personal preference.

Ken Benobi
I agree with Superfly in comparing the old movies with the new. The old stuff has intensity, and the fact that they(the fighters) aren't perfect and can make mistakes adds so much to the film. The newer ones have too much hype, which takes away some realism from the characters. A hero who is untouchable is boring, but a hero who can be hurt or killed keeps you on the edge of your seat.

NoFate007
What I try to do when I write my duels and fights is make it a bit more guerilla style combat. Dirty cheap moves, things that would make sense. For example, if you're in a deadlock and you're close to someone, why wouldn't you use a little Force Lightning on him to give yourself an edge? Take swings at the face, cut people up just to cut people and do a little damage instead of always trying to just block. I agree that the PT duels do seem choreographed, but I have to admit that they're more entertaining even though they lack the emotion that was in the V and VI duels...IV just plain old sucked lol

Master Kadub
Probably Maul vs. Obi TPM
then Vader vs. Luke ESB
after that they could go in several
different directions.....

PVS
remember, the duels in the OT were between:

vader and kenobi: a mechanical half-the-man-he-used-to-be vs. a broken down old man.

vader vs. luke: mecha-man vs. wet-behind-the-ears, hastily trained and relatively unexperienced young kid.

the participants in these duels were either old and rusty or young and unskilled, thus the more barbaric style of fighting.

in the PT, we see a bunch of highly educated duelists doing what they do best.

its like this:
OT duelist=barbarian
PT duelist=samurai

and lets face it, its more exciting to watch a barbarian hack away at someone with an axe than to see a samurai do a single cut and make the kill.

EDIT: correction...there WAS a certain elegance to the vader/ben duel, so that is the exception.

Red Superfly
Vader is old and rusty? He isn't made from remains of the Tin-Man lol.

I miss the old school barbaric style.

And those OT fights made the lightsabers more "elite" weapons.

I mean, they seemed heavy, hard to handle, and very, very powerful. Only Vader seemed to be able to wield one with one hand because of his mechanical strength. That to me made it very impressive. It put across the idea that only a Jedi could wield such a weapon - as Han demonstrated on Hoth, as he looked like he was picking up a heavy mallet.

The PT make the sabers TOO elegant, swinging them around like they are staffs made of balsa wood.

George Lucas kinda shot himself in the foot - he's made his OT fight scenes look old and dated by doing what he's done with these new fights. If he made the fights more in line with the OT - then he wouldn't have "fans" complaining about Episode 4's less extravagent showdown between Obi-Wan and Vader.

I, for one, am hoping that the blue vs blue duel in Episode 3 will be more like Luke vs Vader, rather than something that resembles the "dance" between Obi-Wan and Maul. I know for a fact, that this fight will be choreographed to HELL, but I hope there's bits where they just POWER FIGHT like when Luke goes mental with Vader.

Ushgarak
GL hasn't shot himself in the foot- his very intention was to show that the OT fighting was a pale imitation of the sabre heydey, for precisely the reasons PVS mentions.

I have a very great regard for the ANH duel between Vader and Obi-Wan. It was technically very good and totally appropriate for the situation- it's not something they could repeat again.

The ESB asnd ROTJ duels, whilst they did have a certain amount of drama, frankly I found them clumsy and unconvincing. I like the dramatic bits only, not really the duels as a whole. And I believe SW is a partly visual experience so I would refute queeq's point; the good looking duels are more SW by default.

The TPM duel was brilliantly designed, brilliantly performed, and brilliantly shot. It's only problem was how intercut it was with other, less interesting scenes. I think it annhilates the ESB and ROTJ ones, frankly; their drama is rendered irrelevant by the spectacle and it so happened that that duel contained more characterisation than the whole rest of TPM., and more than Luke got in his entire trilogy (which was basically, whiner leaves home and changes clothes and then FINALLY becomes interesting right at the very end).

And I have no idea where this idea that sabres are heavy comes from- Han was worried about impaling itself. When Luke picks it up for the first time in ANH, it is clearly very light. They are NOT super-heavy weapons, and never were, from the ANH duel onwards. There is no change with the PT.

SnakeEyes
well lightsabers are not heavy though, a blade made of LIGHT would be very easy to move. So that is actually more logical, to have a faster duel. Although i like both styles, it makes more sense to have a duel be faster when both combatants are wielding lightsabers, becuase they are supposed to be fast moving weapons.

in response to Red Superfly)

Red Superfly
Oh well, there's absolutely no way I can agree with what you just said Ushgarak, but I respect your insanity.

Also, a thing I noticed about the duels from OT and PT - was that in the OT, the lightsabers sound a lot LOUDER, and when they ignite, they sound SICK.

The sabers from the PT have awful sound effects, especially when they switch them off - they just turn on and off with a pathetic whimper. Maybe that's another reason as to why I liked the OT duels more - the sound effects were better.

Like the bit where Luke is "edging" towards Vader with his saber on, and all we can hear is the two sabers moving and clashing, and yells of struggle from Luke. The atmosphere is eery, and brilliant.

There's no denying that the fights are better choreographed, but personally, that isn't why I became a Star Wars fan. I became a fan because of everything in the OT. The OT never prided itself on the choreography of the duels, rather than the strength of the story surrounding it.

The PT is doing this backwards, seemingly focussing on new ways to choreograph awesome looking fight scenes, instead of trying to build a quality story AROUND the fight. Sure the fights had a narrative, but they were transparantly done out of necessity for a stunning fight sequence rather than to hold their own as part of the story.

I also find it a bit strange how the best duel of the PT will inevitably be the Obi-Ani battle, which is in effect a fan-made fight due to the demand of it, and the fact that fans wouldn't accept anything other than Anakin saying his last words above some sort of fiery pit. In a way, the best bit of the PT won't even be 100% Lucas's creation. Ironic?

PVS
notice how luke almost took ben's face off with the saber when he first switched it on laughing i wonder if they fixed that for the dvd.

i also fully agree with ush about saber weight. quigon, obiwan, and as ush said, han solo had no problem weilding it.

Red Superfly
Um, I read that the Lightsabers create a heavy backlash from merely swishing them in the air. It was an explanation used back before the PT was created, to explain why the lightsabers seemd so heavy looking in the OT.

Whether or not that explanation holds up today is another thing. It's just another superior idea that Lucas has thrown out the window, oh well.

PVS
oh well...way off topic anyway...

STAY ON TARGET...... stick out tongue

Red Superfly
I don't think it's off topic, it's still about the duels.

I don't mean the sabers seemed physically heavy - I meant they seemed to have a lot of momentum when swung, and therefore created difficulty when trying to swing them around like freakin' ninjas with nunchucks.

Just my opinion. I thought the OT sabers looked like weapons, and the PT sabers looked like child's playthings, that's what I meant.

Havoc X
first of all in the OT GL made the duels look clumsy and out of step because Vadar and Obi- Wan are old and have not used their light sabers in a while in a sense they are out of practice Luke style is that way because he is trained by an old jedi and so he wold have a similar style
TPM and AOTC take place in what is called the Golden Age of jedi so they are all well trained and well practiced in their individual styles
all of this comes from interviews with GL himself so you see that is what he planned on

Havoc X
th OT seem more dramatic because they take place in the during the darkest time for the galaxy and they were emotional for instants Vadar, Obi-Wan , and Luke all knew each other they were all practically family so it was very emotional say fighting you father or your son or in vadar and obi-wans case vadar once considered obi-wan like a father and obi-wan looked at anakin as a son
as for TPM maul and obi-wan didnt know each other never met before they fought and it wasnt really emotional until Qui gon was killed then it was pretty emotional and intense

and lightsabers are childrens weapons
think of the very young padawans they had lightsabers laughing laughing laughing

Havoc X
"the PT make the sabers TOO elegant, swinging them around like they are staffs made of balsa wood"


No the are made of light and energy





There's no denying that the fights are better choreographed, but personally, that isn't why I became a Star Wars fan. I became a fan because of everything in the OT. The OT never prided itself on the choreography of the duels, rather than the strength of the story surrounding it.


the OT WERE choreographed very intense choreography.

Ushgarak
Aside from that being GL's original idea, you mean?

And this idea about the fights being there just for their own sake strikes me as arrant balderdash. That's no different to the original films. And also the idea that they in some way weren't trying to prioritise the choreography of the OT duels is crud as well- they just weren't as good at it. You're just being confused by the fact the ESB duel is in the best film and the ROTJ one the best bit of that film.

I rate the TPM duel above the OT ones in terms of look, style- AND drama. It brought the Sith out into the open, provided all the characterisation as I mentioned above, brought GL's dream of what duels were ABOUT onto the screen, and advanced a vital part of the plot. Frankly, I think what you call 'insanity' is actually simply me not being stuck in the past, making more of things than there really was.

Ushgarak
BTW, as far as I know, the sound effects are identical.

Ken Benobi
I think Dooku has a unique elegance in both his manner and fighting style. He's a dark lord, but still retains everything he had as an accomplished Jedi Master. It'll almost be a shame to see him go...hopefully the fight is a good one.

Sith Master X
Sorry if I missed it, but what are your thoughts about the lightsaber duel in AOTC? You've made a lot of good points about some of the duels so far, just curious what you thought about that one. I thought Dooku was the best swordsman out of anyone we've seen thus far.

Member.
the best duel will have to be me vs. my friend.

the worst duel will have to be me vs. my dad.

Ushgarak
I thought it was ok, well made but not spectacular; the point is that it wasn't the focus of the film; in TPM the big set event was the duel, with a battle around it; in AOTC the big set event was the battle, with a duel stuck after it.

I agree about Dooku, though.

queeq
I am baffled.... Drama in the TPM fight?????? Brought the Sith out in the open? It's a first chapter: the Sith are a completely unknown force, their plans are very unclear at this stage. It has little or no dramatic implications. All we see is a fighting machine Maul that can only beaten by lightsabres. That's the only reason Jedi are required.
The bond between OB1 and QGJ is so filmsy in the film that QGJ's death has only limited dramatic elements. It's hardly an advancement in the plot: Maul dies and his story ends there. All the Jedi know is that there are Sith, but the viewer is entirely left in the dark as to what the heck that would mean. So the drama is very limited. Maul's death gives no clues that may lead to uncovering the plot, after all the Dark Side clouds the vision of the Jedi.
I do agree that it brought GL's dream about. If Luke and Vader had fought like that in ESB and ROTJ, they would have been perfect. But there are no moments of the caliber of tyhe ESB fight or the bit after Vader's line in ROTJ "If you will not be turned, then perhaps she will".

Sorry, Ush, I know you not proned to agreeing with other people, but where this comes from in your particular case as a writer is entirely beyond me.

Ushgarak
Well, that's entirely your problem then, queeq. As far as I am concerned you are making yourself willfully blind to the implications of that fight. I've made my points clear already' I am not going to just keep making them again.

Red Superfly
Ush, I was kinda being sarcastic about the whole "insanity" thing. You've managed to explain your thoughts properly, and I respect that.

Sorry if I seem to be very anti-PT, but I'm not. I just REALLY like the old barbaric way of fighting.

I reckon the Ep.3 duel will be fantastic, as I'm assuming it will have the best of both worlds - in that it will be an epic showdown like Luke and Vader, but with the old barbaric style, mixed with some stunning Maul/Obi-Wan style set pieces. I can't really see it being done any other way.

Batman316
To me there is no matching the final Vader/Luke confrontation. It had the emotion, the background music and the feel (if you know what I mean)
These new fights are pretty to look at but seem to be seriously lacking the emotion that made the OT duels so great. (minus the Obi vs Vader EP4 one)
But I think it's pretty save to assume that as of May 2005 it will change. 12 minutes of Anakin Vs Obi (an duel WITH emotion)
........ it's gonna be awesome.

queeq
Hardly a problem, Ush. And certainly not mine. I am not willfully blind to the implications of that fight. I see them, but they are so hidden from a general audience that it requires a lot more knowledge and understanding of what's going on behind it all to really see all that (drama, revelation, plot points) connected to the fight. It's exactly as you say: it has implications. But just looking at Episode I as the start of a series, of a story there is very little going on in this fight except a nice dance. I noticed that in so many non-SW fans who saw the movie. It was unanimous in saying that the story was flimsy but the effects were nice. I personally disagree with the flimsiness, but I can understand why one comes to that conclusion after watching TPM: you cannot see it. Nowhere, it is hidden in subtleties and (in the long run) implications. That doesn't make it dramatic though.

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