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the evidence is shotty at best, but hear me out...

in AotC we see the duel between dooku and kenobi, with anakin sizzling in the corner, having just been zapped with force lightning. dooku cuts kenobi's arm and leg...disarming him and rendering him helpless. without a second thought, dooku winds up for the final blow to end the life of his padawan's padawan.
it stands to reason that had anakin not jumped in, kenobi would be dead.

now, anakin...who dooku has never even met, mind you... takes his turn and fights. dooku makes even shorter work of him, slices his arm clean off..........and then....does nothing.
he extinguishes his saber, looks at anakin...and gives an expression that i can only translate as regret. i honestly beleive that if yoda had not showed up, dooku would have spared anakin...does anyone else get that impression?

the answer to that is simple...dooku is in with sidious...so he knows that sidious has plans for young master anakin. however..... having been a former jedi master, and now a sith...surely dooku knows that there can only be 2 sith...so with the addition of anakin, that leaves dooku the 'odd man out'.

so why would dooku not slice anakin down right there and keep his powerful position as sith apprentice?

to head straight to my point, i see one of three things happening in ep3:

1-dooku tries to convince anakin to join him and strike down sidious...but for that to happen, palps would have to reveal his true identity to anakin early in the film...i find this scenario doubtful.

2-dooku realizes that palps planned to have anakin kill him and take his place, and feels betrayed...like i stated, dooku realizes that in the sith, two's company and three's a crowd...so i also find that doubtful.

3-dooku plans on being killed. after loosing quigon he feels total hatred toward the jedi, and especially to obiwan for "letting" quigon die, and the council for leading quigon to his death...not to mention his frustration with a functionless republic. with his life's last action of spite he choses to lead the 'chosen one' down the dark path and end the jedi's exhistance forever.

i find #3 to be the most believable.
i can see a scene in ep3 with quigon staring down anakins lightsaber, totally defenseless. i can then see him saying "your hate has made you powerful...now strike me down with all of your hatred...i am defensless..etc"

anyway, it makes perfect sense to me.
what do you all think?
questions...comments...perhaps a counter-theory?

shoot

I think he knows that he has to help palpatine along by giving his life so anakin goes to the darkside in the long run just like assja ventress was only sent to make sure anakin gets more anger in him so by the time he gets to dooku he will be know match for anakin and I would think dooku would have known this.

yes, this relates to #1: "dooku tries to convince anakin to join him and strike down sidious..."

however, i failed to mention the connection to that conversation on geonosis between dooku and kenobi. yes, it is possible that dooku genuinely wanted kenobi to join him...and that his sights will then be set on anakin.

i think it is very possible, but i still lean more toward #3.

i think that #2 just wont happen, i hope it doesnt, because it would make dooku look like a fool and ruin his character.

I'm sure Dooku has given some thought as to what will happen to him in the near future. He probably knows Sidious won't keep him forver, yet at the same time he feel's trapped and is afraid of what might happen if he tries to break away from him.

i have a feeling we might be reading abit too much into this as previous star wars storylines are rarely so complexed that they require this much debate.
i'd say that dooku's face after slicing anakin's arm off was just that of a tired old man who had jus fought two of the strongest jedi in history.
but hey, i could be wrong!

No Dark Sider would want to give his own life.

I very much doubt Dooku wants Anakin to become worth anything at all; he was just getting ready to gloat after a triumphant fight. And yes, he would rather take on the mantle of Master with Obi-Wan as his apprentice.

no ush, not out of self sacrifice, but what of hatred?
my point is that dooku may just have himself killed as a big "FU"
to the jedi. nothing virtuous about that.

and to the previous poster, i see this in no way as being complex or reaching far for a theory. dooku hates the jedi, dooku is a sith...dooku, however evil, is a very wise cat, so he knows the whole deal with "only two there are"
its very possible, i think.

you said that maybe he knew that sidious wanted anakin right? yes. and maybe he wanted to over through sidious, but in order to do that, he needed a certain someone's help, (a.k.a. Obi Wan). Then after getting the help and over-throwing sidious he would "return" to the dark and take up anikan. this relates to your guys', but here's something that i'll just throw out here. just say dooku DOES get the truce or alliance between him and the jedi's, or just Obi Wan, and in the third one mace find's out about sidious because of this alliance and then confronts him. that is when he dies from anakin or sidious, but i've also heard that anakin fights dooku there, maybe because dooku doesn't want anakin to fight mace, he thinks he could loose, and like i said, he wanted him on HIS side, not sidious's, but anakin end's up killing both of them. whew. do you get what i'm saying, and please don't bash if you don't. out........

I think after fighting Anakin he was supposed to look a little tired.

How much better would Dooku's charachter have been if he was shown as a jedi and as Qui Gons former master in Ep 1. There could have been a scene with Dooku, Qui Gon, Obi Wan and Anakin that could be as simple as walking down a hall in the temple that now would be incredible looking back on it. Also it would have acctually allowed a few people to think that Dooku wasnt bad in Ep2. ( Having him created for Ep 2 as the new bad guy kind of gave away the mystery Lucas said he was looking for...in his mind people didnt know he was bad till the arena...ha)

I always considered that look that he gives in Episode 2 to be tired as well. I don't believe there was any regret there. He injured them both, he didn't kill them.

Though, what I seriously have to wonder, is if Yoda hadn't showed up, would he have delivered the final blow to both Anakin and Obi-Wan who were severly hurt, or would he have taken off?

it would suck, having dooks capture his "padawan's padawan" and trying to make him evil, or join his neutral side (not with jedi, sort-of against sidious too). i liked the surprise when he said "I was once Qui Gon's master, as he was once your's. He wouldn't helped me i i asked him too." Obi Wan "He never would have joined you", yada yada yoda- i mean yada.

i'm intrigued by this idea, i think i read something similar in darth surgents radical interpretation thread....i hadn't really thought about it before. but it's got me thinking now....

when dooku tells obi wan not to be so sure about quigon joining him, that scene always seemed to be hinting at something a bit more complex....he could just be baiting him, but maybe there's more to it...

this ties in with thoughts i've been having about quigon's supposed rebelliousness, it's mentioned so many times in tpm, but we really don't get much evidence of it apart from anakin being presented to the council....the only reason i even noticed it, is that it's referred to so often in the dialogue....so why the emphasis?....

quote:
"i have a feeling we might be reading abit too much into this as previous star wars storylines are rarely so complexed that they require this much debate."

actually, to me the prequels have gotten extremely complex and laden with hints designed to confuse people and lead to debate....i only hope lucas follows through in this last one, and lets loose with a few shocking revelations.....i was waiting for something on anakin's father after tpm, but they say that's not gonna happen....they do lie sometimes, and that rumour about a traitor on the council originated from the official site if i'm not mistaken....they're having a lot of fun stirring all this up....

but will there be any payoffs?....

oh, and ghetto goblin (spoiler alert)......



i'm pretty sure dooku dies at the beginning of the film on the fed cruiser, it just makes the time frame a little tight....but it could well be a better idea than what's in the film....

some of you guys are totally missing my point.

dooku waisted no time in trying to kill kenobi (with exception to him twirling his sabre just before) he extinguished his saber after fighting anakin.

how can that just be because he's "tired"?

Hmm...that's another interesting point as well. Seems to me like he'd of kept his saber on if he wanted them dead, but I never thought of it like that.

you answered yourself, although i should let someone post in between us, he knew that sidious had "plans" for anakin and if he killed him then sidious would be furious and end up killing dooks.

CORRECT GUIRO!!!
thank you

there are many complexities in the OT, and tenfold more in the PT.
SW isnt JUST meant for children. ask a small child what a "vote of no confidence" is, or a "sympathy vote", thats kinda complex, and the cenral reason why palps vas voted chancelor.

there are layers to the story
an obvious battle between good and evil for the kids and adults to enjoy,
and a deeper layer that we continue to discover.

EDIT: im not saying this to attempt to solidify my theory, but i fully disagree when people view star wars as a kinda dumbed down story meant for 10 year olds to understand through and through.

it always struck me that Dookus 'look' was that he misjudged Anakin and thought he was weaker than he was. So it tired him out don't forget Anakin had just started to touch the dark side at this point. But the count did turn off his lightsaber hmmmm....
meditate on this i will.

it's an interesting point....and a valid one....

you could ask why he was so willing to feed anakin to the lions in the arena, but then maybe that was seen as yet another test for the "chosen one".....the way he holds nute back from a straight out kill is suspicious as well....

yes, maybe he knew the jedi were beyond being killed by beasts, especially the chosen one...hell, the droids could even have been programmed to not kill anakin...but thats too deep

just too hard to work into the ep III script convincingly....

if you are refering to my last post, yes of coarse, its digging way too deep

however, picture this:

palpatine instructs anakin on reaching his darkside potential ala ROTJ, while dooku keeps talking trash, pi$$ing anakin off more and more.
dooku simply eggs him on to kill him out of hatred ala vader ESB(i can definitely see this happening) anakin does so and cuts him down.

both of them working together to turn anakin evil.
remember, the turn of anakin rings in the age of darkness.
he is not just some jedi dooku would be giving up his seat to.
he would assure that the jedi fall, which dooku seems to want more than
anything.

yeah, i think the scene will be reminiscent of rotj, i was just referring to the bit about droid programming there....must hit the hay....i'll rejoin this debate at a later time....

Tyrannus will have Anikan strike him down, just as obi-wan did with vader, That way Tyranuss can appear to his child in ghost form and train him in the ways of the jedi. Oh you ask who is his child? Well he was hidden after episode 3 happens and Yoda has him hidden away so he wont grow old and vengeful. However when he learns of his lineage he becomes angry and begins gathering a new rebel force, a rebel force that wishes to restore the Empire!! oh wait this is just all episode 7,8,9 wishfull thinking.

AAAAAAAH!!!! MAKE IT STOP!!! MAKE IT STOP!!!

after reading that the whole room started spinning

dooku gets killed by anakin,anakin slices both his arms off then grabs dooku's saber and his saber and cuts off his head with both sabers.

a very cool visual, but off topic.

isnt this about how dooku gets killed?

more like dooku's attitude about being killed.
most people feel he will feel betrayed, but
i present the theory that he goes into this with
full knowledge that he will be struck down by
the "chosen one".

yeah he does get betrayed by siddious.

Yeah, and I heard somewhere that while he is imprisioned in the chair, he is controlling some of the things that are going on in that room.

right, he is imprisoned in the chare, by design of him AND dooku.
anakin comes to rescue him as designed by him AND dooku.
see why im thinking all this? its all planned, but is dooku in on the plan?
why would he volunteer to fight anakin again?

yep thats right,he traps him with anakin in that room and starts throwing sutff at him while dueling anaki.

You're right PVS, it was all be design, so I can see your point about Dooku being aware of the plan or not. He probably feels that he doesn't have another choice.

ahuh,man i cant wait for this movie to come!!

thats an excellant thought smx, he has no choice.
just as vader was a slave to the dark side and sidious,
so is dooku. if palps says "die" dooku has no choice.
the only one powerful enough to return to the light and
disobey his master was anakin.

Does Dooku want to be killed? The answer in my opinon is yes it his destiny to fall and let Anakin take his place. It is for the well being of the dark side.

yeah,see the whole point of it was just to let anakin take dook place,then after dooku dies siddous starts a evil laugh on the chair.

Maybe Palpatine clouded Dooku into thinking he had some hope for the future(doesn't sound too plausible though). I have also always thought, after seeing Episode II, that Anakin would get Dooku in much the same manner the Emperor tempted Luke to strike him down, and he would fall to the dark because of his anger. This might sound obvious and repetitive, but I remember Vader telling Luke to join him and they would rule together, and I can't see Vader wanting to take the saber for the Emperor so Luke could take his place....

Something else I thought of is that Palpatine used Maul to take the fall so his grander scheme would work, and from what little we heard Maul say, he seemed convinced he was gonna payback the Jedi....

That's not a bad thought at all. It's possible.

palpatine is a trader.

Previously, Ush said that a Dark Sider would never give up his own life for anything. I agree with this, and I doubt that Lucas ever meant to have Dooku willingly die, but here are some reasons that Dooku would allow himself to be killed:

First of all, Dooku is not your average Dark Sider. My conception of Dooku, (and this is just my opinion) is that he is not the same kind of 2-Dimensional bad guy as most of the others. He is a political idealist who wants the galaxy to be a certain way, and he has been forced to go to drastic measures to accomplish his goals. He despises the greed and corruption that has been seeping into the Republic, and has grown extremely angry with the Jedi for not doing what is necessary to restore the government to the way it should be. It is here that I believe Palpatine's deception comes into play. Palpatine tells Dooku that together they can eliminate the corrupt elements in the Republic, but the Jedi will stand in their way. Dooku, with his build up of resentment towards the Jedi, and his massive frustration with the government, agrees to be trained in the ways of the Dark Side, eventually becoming a Sith Lord. What Dooku does not see, is that Palpatine has been masterminding the corruption, and does not share his goals.

Years pass. The events of AotC transpire. Dooku is tasked with starting the clone wars, succeeds, and his usefulness to Palpatine is over. Palpatine needs a more powerful apprentice now; one that will not stand in the way of taking complete control of the galaxy and forging the Empire. Palpatine and Dooku have been watching Anakin Skywalker for a long time, and Palpatine tells Dooku that with the power of Skywalker (who the Jedi say may be the Chosen One), Dooku's ultimate goals can be accomplished. He convinces Dooku that he must bring Anakin closer to the Dark Side by having him release his anger, and by having him touch the Dark Side in the deepest way: by using one's hatred to murder another.

Dooku is so motivated to accomplish his goals that he would turn to the Dark Side, therefore giving his own life to do the same is not a gigantic stretch. This notion works if you accept the theory that Dooku is NOT an ultra-dedicated Sith who cares only for death and destruction. Of course, no matter what he may be, he has been used and deceived by Palpatine in many ways, and there are many ways in which deception could lead to Dooku's demise.

I don't think that Episode III will show that Dooku allows himself to be killed, but it is not entirely unreasonable to come up with that theory.

well, i would take it even further than that.

anakin will go into the sith with good intentions.
we will see him commit seemingly justified acts, as a previous poster stated.
he will kill the evil leaders of the trade federation, as he slaughtered the
"vicious animals" who murdered his mother. (not that i find them justified acts, but comapred to what vader does under rule of palpatine, its childsplay)

when vader is in the grip of the darkside, he does the unthinkable. he will slaughter innocent younglings, in ep4 he stands by and watches an entire world destroyed, things anakin would never have allowed to happen.

my point is, when someone joins the dark side, the good person they once were, dies. (sound familiar?) and they become a slave to their master.

dooku will die willingly, not because of an ideal, but out of spite. he is a dark shadow of the man he once was, and all of his goodness and most of all...common sense...is washed away, as was the case with vader.

vader didnt want to die at lukes hand, but he almost did nonetheless. not because luke is so powerful, but because vader egged him on to attack him.
whatever his goal, to be killed or rule the galaxy with his son, his overall goal was to serve the dark side. as is the case with dooku.

in other words: count dooku is already dead, there is only darth tyrannus.
thats how i see it anyway

If you read the book TPM you'll find that Sideous was pissed because Maul was defeated and that he vowed the Jedi would pay for the destruction of his apprentice.

even though he was going to do it anyways?

He was probably pissed because even though eventually Maul would have gone, Sidious wanted Kenobi and Qui-gon dead. His apprenctice at the time never accomplished what Sidious wanted, instead it was the other way around so that's probably why Sidious was angered. At least that's how I see it.

so he used it as an excuse?

well, maul's purpose was to slice through whatever jedi was protecting padme.
the whole point of sending maul was to assure that padme was killed.

bzzzzz

interruption........this is a pic (dunno if was already posted) thats as close as can get with the Kenobi/ Anakin VS. Dooku

Well, I mean considering the depth of Palpatine's plans, and how he methodically and patiently plots and executes them over the space of years, Palpatine must've known about the prophecies of the chosen one. And we know he had "great interest" in Anakin at his young age, yet he still had Dooku as his apprentice. So I find it to be a possibility(especially considering his nature) that Palpatine would let an apprentice of his die for the purpose of bringing his plans to pass(and we see this theme again in ROTJ, and I bet in ROTS too)

(but then maybe Palpatine didn't start to do that until after Maul...??)

I can't agree with Surgent- whatever Dooku's moives and intentions, the Dark Side twists you into a selfish creature. Self-sacrifice in ANY cause would not be an option.

Palpatine is kinda making up his plans on the spot when it comes to apprenticies. GL said Palpatine trying to replace lost ones is one of the plots of the Trilogy.

Well, once again, I'll try to make it clear.

I completely agree with your impression of Dooku, and that's what I'm SURE Lucas means Dooku to be. I'm just giving a way for people who disagree with that position to begin an argument. I do not really think that Lucas will show Dooku to have sacrificed himself willingly.

you can argue about that?
star wars is an easy story; the good side are pure good, the bad side is evil

there is no point in discussing that Dooku doesn't wanna die because he is corrupted by the dark side, that's all there is to it

Good pic, I think I saw a clip of that in one of the web docs, but that's one of the best shots of the duel so far.

I think it's an interesting point, even if the answer's no....and it ties in with the valid question of whether dooku knows of palpatine's plans for anakin and the prophecy, and anakin being the chosen one etc etc.....in other words, how much of palpatine's plans has dooku been made aware of.....it was worth discussing.....

oh, hadn't seen that pic either....nice.....

also check the thread "radical interpretation"....i think there's a bit more in there on the subject, but it's so involved my memory of the details is getting fuzzy....good read.....

well PVS, to answer your question, no. he wants to recrute anakin with him and then go and kill sidious himself, at least that is what i'm sticking to, unless someone else has even more convincing facts. i'm out.............

Cool Pic!!!

Dooku, IMO, does not seek to get killed ; he takes orders from the Dark Lord and he is fuelled by greed . His ambitions would be to be a henchman and have control of some part of the galaxy. he would go to extremes to be prized by the dark lord...............................thats his agenda .

sucking up to sidious and hope of some piece of the cake

^ Yeah, that sort of follows my theory somethat.

i disagree:
if that is the case, then it is safe to say that dooku genuinely wanted to recruit obiwan, which im willing to accept as a possability.

however, his haste in trying to kill obiwan tells me that a simple "hell no" is enough of a response to make dooku give up on you and seek another prospect.

so, after anakin expressed nothing but contempt for dooku, and wanted nothing more than to cut him down, why did dooku not give up on him as well?

because anakin is the chosen one you might say?
then how does dooku know this?
he left the order before they discovered anakin...so how does he know?

i believe palpatine told him.
can you believe that as well?

now, knowing that palpatine only gives out information when it serves him and only him, why did he inform dooku? i think to make sure dooku does not kill him.

i tend to agree with some other posts i believe he was well knackered after fighting anakin there was a fair few sabre swinging moments before the arm loss part....and who is to say that the withdraw of the lightsabre wasn't a ploy so that he could capture the pair of jedi and present them to palps....of course i belive this would have been fufilled if it wasn't for yoda turning up....just a thought

perhaps that is the case with anakin,
but he was going to kill obiwan. there is no argueing that.

Actually, and pardon me if this was mentioned already, but what about the look
dooku gives when he has torn down that huge column and is getting away? As he's going up the ramp of his ship, he stops to see if Yoda will save the two fallen Jedi. Why? Was he told to make sure that Skywalker lived? It didn't register in mind till recently, but it seems odd to me.

darth, i would bet that farm on it.
anakin is palp's ace in the hole.
whether or not dooku knows he will be killed by anakin,
you can bet your a$$ that he was given strict orders to not
kill anakin.

if that wasnt the case, he could have struck yoda in the back, dropping the
column, and killing 3 birds with 1 stone you might say.

Its too bad we'll never get much info (in the movie, at least) about Dooku. What's his motivation? Before Episode 2 was released, I remember something about him having disputes with the way the Jedi were doing things and that Qui-Gon's death was the final straw. Joining the Sith seems a little extreme though. Maybe there'll be something in his dialogue while fighting Anakin....

its like selling your soul to the devil for all that is material

Maybe, cavola. He might have just said to himself- "screw it, I'm going to take care of #1" Regardless of the consequences.

Dooku's pretty sophisticated. He is very accomplished and has a touch of elegance, and when he is talking to Obi-Wan about his plans, I wonder if he is telling the truth, and really wanting Obi-Wan to join him. And all the while he is helping Palpatine's master plan become reality. It seems like Dooku is playing all fronts, and using idealism as a mask for Palp's plans, and beneath it all Dooku is really power hungry and devoted to the dark side.

I liked Dooku, that's why I'm a little disappointed that he won't have much screen time in Episode 3. The way he talked to his opponents while fighting (like a cerain other Sith lord) was cool. I especially like the interrogation scene: he walks in and tells Obi-Wan honest truth, but its so incredible Obi won't accept it.

Yeah, they'll have to demonstrate how Obi-Wan and Anakin have grown since their last fight if we are to be convinced they beat him, because Dooku just mopped the floor with em.(Although had Anakin followed Obi-Wan's lead it could have turned out differently, but it wasn't in the script)

Doesn't the Emperor even tell Vader he's impatient in ROTJ after Vader tells him about Rebels who just got through the security checkpoint? Or was that the novelization?

It does sound vaguely familiar

The novel throws me off sometimes because of the differences between that and the final script, but I thought it is in the movie. Its the part when the Em peror tells Vader that Luke will seek him out.
I still feel like they could do more with Dooku.

The novel throws me off sometimes because of the differences between that and the final script, but I thought it is in the movie. Its the part when the Em peror tells Vader that Luke will seek him out.
I still feel like they could do more with Dooku.

yeah that was where I remember it too, and yeah I'd like to see Dooku do more before he croaks

I've convinced myself that Dooku was given orders NOT to kill Anakin. How he would interpret that, I don't know. Did Sidious say "I don't care if you maim your replacement, just don't kill him"? We may never know....

i think dooku had no choice but to disarm anakin...hehe...disarm...

Maybe that was one of Dooku's favorite tactics and he taught it to Qui-Gon, who taught Obi-Wan, but Anakin gets it wrong by doing it to his own son.

Hehehe....DC.....'Poor Luke'

That should be a thread- unintentionally funny things in Star Wars.

ANYWAY...stay on target



well, maybe for the sith, its just tough love

but seriously, vader proved that until you are actually dead, you always have the potential to be all-powerful, regardless of what is hacked off of you, besides your head of coarse.

to me dooku seemed regretful that he had to cut anakins arm off...not that that i think he felt guilty, since hes evil... just more like "damn how am i going to explain this to sidious...i damaged his prodigy"

Maybe you're right PVS. Dooku had to hope the war started or he was in trouble.

yeah...i can see a cut scene from ep2:

dooku: the force is with us master sidious, the war has begun

sidious: welcome lord tyrannus...you have done well...everything is going as planned

dooku: oh..um....by the way, i was able to keep master anakin alive..

sidious: excellent lord tyrannus, just as i commanded.

dooku: yeah...right...but um...i had to um *cough*cuthisarmoff*cough*

sidious: i didnt quite catch that...say that again...

dooku: oh its no biggie...he attacked me so i had to cut his arm off...but he's ok, so dont worry abou----*slap*

(sidious imediately gives dooku a barage of b**** slaps....cut to next scene)

Maybe you should write the novelization of the movie, PVS. You're insight serves you well.

you know I'm thinking Dooku might have wanted to keep Obi-Wan alive too- Look at how he put Obi-Wan out of the fight. He only burns him enough to put him down, but a master like him could've flicked his wrist a bit more and Ben would've had something in common with Maul...sorta. I wonder if Dooku was wanting to keep Ben on the backburner in case Anakin failed and/or if Palpatine betrayed Dooku later on....The idea of Dooku being serious when asking Obi-Wan to join him is sounding more believable to me, Dooku might've wanted to try and overthrow Palpatine with Obi-Wan...the Sith can't even trust one another aftter all...

i think dooku intended to kill obiwan.
i agree though, i think he wanted him to join when kenobi was captured,
but he was going to cut kenobi down after their duel.

it does look like dooku's going in for the kill on obi wan at the end of their duel....

only other explanation is that he knew anakin would step in, and was one step ahead the whole way on the manipulation front, but i don't buy that....

looks like he was going to off him to me....

There's more to Dooku's motives than we know.....

yes, and that is a question no one can answer i guess.
see, he twirls his saber before going for the final blow.
some may say he was hesitating, waiting for anakin.
i say its just for theatrics, since its all about making us the audience
go "ooooh aaaaah".

so who knows about that.
not that i defeat my own arguement, but i think that issue may have a bit of room for debate.

Maybe Dooku has a terminal disease and is bitter towards the Jedi and the galaxy, and this is his way of getting back at them?
Just a crazy thought.

i agree pvs, i hope there's more detail on this in ep III....he looks like he's gonna kill obi wan in the duel, there's a good chance he's been told to spare anakin.....when you add in the interrogation when he invites obi wan to join him, and then tells him the TRUTH about the whole plot....and the "don't be so sure about qui gon" line....plus if he's interested in power, being the leader of a phoney war with a use by date, how much power is there in that?.....it's all most interesting...

yeah, he's kind of a puppet ruler...im sure he would desire more

I think Ush had an interesting theory on that. Did he tell it here already? It may have had to do with the difference between the Living Force and the Unifying Force. That Dooku and QGJ were more the Living Force and the Council more on the Unifying Force. That the Lost twelve may have separated because of this difference, hence Dooku's grudge against the Jedi.

Wasn't there a bacjstory briefly explained in a cut scene from the AOTC librabry scene where the lady talks to OB1 about Dooku. It's certainly in the book, but I can't remember exactly what was being said apart from Dooku being one of the lost twelve.

it would be nice if GL put that scene back in the damn film.
or at least as a cut scene on the dvd.
god forbid we should have some answered questions.

editor: should we keep it george?

GL: no no no, that would answer questions...we cant have that *snip*

I didin't get why they didn't put that on the DVD either. I was expecting that one to be in. Then again, GL is going to be changing these films until Kingdom come, so who knows what the future brings.

i bet he will be changing the films until the day he dies.
so lets just hope he never gets alzheimer's, or we are all in trouble

perhaps it gave TOO MUCH away, and would have spoiled ep III.....i've read something similar to this unifying vs living force theory somewhere else, but i can't remember where or just how similar it was.....it was tied in with the midichlorian thing somehow, i think....why the hell did he put this stuff in if there was no point to be made about it further down the track?....(actually, it might have even been official)....

THe whole problem with the PT is that GL doesn't give enough away. IMHO I feel he should have made clear in TPM that Palpy and Sidious are one and the same, and he could have given Dooku away for who he was. We are left with characters without any noticeable background withing the frame of the movie itself.
Personally I had LOVE to see AOTC start with Dooku arriving at Geonisis to inspect the Droid factory and meet with the accomplices of the ATTACK. If it was made clear that Dooku was Lord Tyrannus, a powerful Dark Jedi, then our loveable Christopher Lee would have cast his shadow over the entire movie. I believe it would have added much to the tension and excited: we as viewers would know what was at stake, but the gullible Jedi not.

You might be right about AOTC, but in TPM its fairly obvious who Sidious is. Lucas just didn't want to completely spell it out for us, that's all.

None of the non-SW fans I know got it. When I told them they ALL were very much surprised. It kinda take the whole intrigue away.

GL wants to impose HIS way of us viewing the films, which is eps 1-6

we view it as 4-6 then 1-3, so there are no surprises for us.

ep3 is supposed to be the big revealing episode, for those who never saw the original. OMFG palpatine IS sidious!!!!!

my problem is this: since when is star wars a f'n mystery movie???

Hmmm...
Maybe you should have left them in the dark. Then they would be surpised during Episode 3.

LOL who!?!?

even the little kiddies have already seen the OT.

who does GL think he's surprising!?!?!

I'm sure GL wouldn't have been so subtle on TPM if it had actually BEEN the first movie. The only reason we fans "get it" is BECAUSE of 4-6.

Very good point, there. That be what's bothering some fans: they don't realize that Lucas is looking down the road at how the complete saga will look...

right, but in the OT, it was about the element of surprise "i am your father"
now that scene loses all magic, since the future unspoiled audience will aleady know that.

double post....damn

i get way more out of vader's character now in the ot than i did before....there was no way to keep that surprise unfortunately....we had our fun 30 years or so ago, screw future generations.....

i like to watch them in the numerical order myself....

also remember going to see tpm with a friend who hadn't seen it before, he said "i got the feeling there was something going on with that senator guy", i said "dude, that was the emperor!", he nearly crapped himself.....i found him about 2 in the morning, sitting in the dark, watching my old rotj video....

Now the "surprise" is just Luke's but that was part of the story. It will still work as a whole, one way or another.....

And yes, these new movies do enhance our understanding of the old ones.

you know what...i like your philosophy screw em!

they're all watching the matrix or vin diesel movies anyway....screw 'em...

Yeah, screw the future......

yeah, little vin diesel loving cretans...with their rock n roll and video games

anyway back to topic!!

OK, does he?

rock n roll and video games are so passe, grandpa....get with the times....

there is a lot of mystery surrounding dooku's character, and there better be some kind of payoff or explanation....i agreed with queeq that dooku's character was under-utilised in aotc....i don't think a single person was surprised by the revelation that he was evil, that didn't work at all....and they sacrificed almost everything else for that one point....his big revelation that he was a sith at the end....was anyone shocked, considering he had just been waving a red sabre around for 40 minutes, and only the sith have ever had red sabres in the whole saga?....lucas wasted lee a bit in that film....but there were lots of interesting (and possibly unanswerable) questions raised by his too brief appearance...

yeah, whether you view it from ep1-6 or 4-6 then 1-3, the mystery aspect of it is just kinda backwards

...especially after seeing like 30 jedi waving sabers and not one of them with a red saber...

I don't think it was supposed to be a mystery for us, but for the jedi.

could it be that GL has just gotten lost in his own universe and forgotten about us, the audience?

quote:
I don't think it was supposed to be a mystery for us, but for the jedi.
cain

no, lucas said the audience wasn't supposed to know 'til the end, then he kind of admitted it didn't work....

I don't agree entirely that it was about the element of surprise. Surprise itself doesn't make the three films work, it certainly didn't make the first one work. But what is there is the bigger story: Luke is adopted, he finds out the truth about his father hasn't been told, his mentor gets killed by the one who 'killed' his father, he fights a space battle with that evil thug (so far just ANH), then that evil thug catches up with him and his Rebel Friends, his dead mentor tells him to become a Jedi like his father, gets taught and has to meet his destiny: his father's 'killer' who then claims to BE his father instead of killing his son (ESB), then some time later Luke has matured and has one thing left to complete his destiny - to face his father in a final clash of good and evil. THAT is the OT, there's an ongoing confluict which is still wonderful to watch to day: there's clear stuff at stake and we still live with our heroes to see how they're gonna clear it up.
The PT lacks such an emotional backstory entirely. It's basically charming and very talented little boy get found by inspiring mentor, becomes greatest Jedi against the odds, and becomes a baddy.... I mean, it's basically a story one can tell in one movie.

GL just better not screw this one up, or so help me god i'll...

go see it 10 times anyway and then buy the dvd...

DAMN YOU LUCAS!!!!!!!

I know the feeling...

no, surprise is not a central element...but "i am your father" is perhaps the most famous movie quote next to "go ahead make my day" and "frankly my dear i dont give a damn". now it means squat. maybe not to us, since we still remember the moment, but to future viewers...

but hey...as a previous poster said "screw em"

Yup... The OT will always be a classic. I fear the PT will not.

just realized how far from the topic we've strayed

oh well, lets see if i can bring it back

lets go back to ESB, vader's chat with palps. they mutually plan eachother's downfall, knowing that their intentions are not hidden from the other.

"always two there are, no more, no less"

so they are basically comfortable with the idea of one of them dying, in fact looking forward to it.

the point i'm making is, if dooku wants to overthrow palps, i doubt he would hide the idea from him. they both have one purpose, to serve the darkside. that is why vader and palps had no problem with the open plan of mutual deception. whatever the outcome, evil would still reign.

wow....i really need to watch esb again....i always thought palpatine might've liked luke to replace vader, but that vader's plan to overthrow palpatine was a secret....

well, vader brought up the idea...

they both know there can be only 2

its a safe deduction that neither plan was secret

HOWEVER, vader hides luke's identity from the beginning of the film till that conversation. so, there was a secret going for a while. i imagine palpatine meditated on vader's thoughts and picked up on it

not arguing, just can't remember (my copies of the scripts are in storage, and i'm not ready to watch the films again yet)....i always thought palpatine and vader where both discussing the possibility of luke being vader's replacement (but vader was just playing along)....

awwww WHY NOT!?!?!

would if i could, but i don't have a leg to stand on....i thought vader's plan was a secret.....FANBOY!!!!......

bump....sinking stupid threads

Off topic and over 100. Closing.