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I know nothing is for sure but what do you think Vader will know at the end of Ep 3? For instance will he believe that Yoda and Ob1 are still alive? What will convince him they are dead? ALso I read somewhere that he will know Padme had twins, but not sure. Also will Palp know more than vader? By that I mean will palp know of Yoda and Obi1's hiding?

I'm sure he'll definitely know that Yoda and Obi-Wan are alive, but are hiding.

he knows about OB1 yes, but Yoda?

he'll probibley feel obi-wan presence in the force just like in episode4 when he was on the death star 1. The thing I wonder is if he is going to remember or ask about padame after he becomes darth and I know that the voice will be changed.

I believe they would have to think Yoda was dead. To let the leader of the Jedi get away would be failure it would seem.

'Obi-Wan has taught you well.'
Sounds like Vader doesn't even consider the fact that Yoda could be still around.

now way dude.
according to vader. yoda is dead. he never even mentions yoda.
"he's just a boy...obiwan can no longer help him"

palps probably thinks he killed yoda.
i imagine we will see yoda escape him by the skin of his teeth.

Well, i kind of have a feeling that all the jedi won't be dead at the end of RotS. I don't think that GL will have killed of every single jedi, besides yoda and obi wan, at the end of episode 3. Ya know we've got like 20 years in between the pt and ot and i'm thinking that, in that time, vader will be hunting down and killing all the remaining jedi. And i'm not sure if vader will know about yoda or not, maybe GL didn't ever have a plan of yoda being so high up at the time he made the ot, so maybe GL thought anakin and palpatine weren't going to know who yoda was. Who knows, but i'm sure GL will make sense out of this matter.

I think he will know Obi Wan is alive and believe he has one male child... but I still don't know about Yoda... Im leaning towards them beleiving he is dead somehow.

The Empire, in ANH, generally assumes all the Jedi are dead, either from theve events of Episode III or what followed. Tarkin is surprised when Vader voices an objection- but not so surprised that he refuses to believe it.

We know from Yoda that only he and Obi-Wan made it, so I think the answer is simply that the Empire, and so Vader, is pretty sure it accounted for the lot of them. Vader thinks different once he feels Obi-Wan's presence again- the possiblity may have occurred to him before but I doubt Vader was actively thinking all these years "You know, I don't think we killed Obi-Wan?"

Yeah it doesnt make sense to kill all the Jedi ecxept for the two most powerful of them all and be content.

well they got mace and he was #2

Yoda and Obi-Wan found themselves in the classical Sith role "always two there are...no more no less..." .......unless you count Vader, who later proved himself....

but by the time vadar proved himself
yoda and obi 1 were dead and it was just vadar and luke and then it was luke and leia so
two there are no more no less

i think after vader confronts ben and kills him (so to speak) he says something on the lines of referring to the death star and seeing the end of kenobi,it will be a long day remembered,it would assume he believes yoda is dead,and since there were only 2 jedi left,being yoda and obi-wan,they pose no real threat to the empire anyway right...

I agree...but still, their ultimate goal is the ultimate extinction of the Jedi, so you'd think if they knew, they'd go after him...

...and how'd they find the Jedi underlings? Using the force? If so, how did that shield Obi and Yoda?

i cant recall any evidence of the force being used to establish somebodies whereabouts unless they are fairly nearby, correct me if im wrong of course

good point, (Spearhead) I have wondered about that too

I think it can be assumed that Palp and Vader both are under the impression that they have wiped the entire Jedi order out. If you remember in ANH Vader says " I sense a presence I have not felt....." He is bewildered at the fact it's even there.

His first tought would be

Darth Vader : "Hey Palpatine ; WTF are you wearing that stupid hood on your face ...........OH ! I see ! you are an ugly Sith "

Sidious: " Yes Anakin; from now on your name will be Darth Vader. as you have saved my life from Mace Windu, i have saved yours. But you are even uglier after your collapse in that volcano ! "

anakin won't care where yoda is cuz yoda's a short green dude. and OB1 went into hiding, so anakin isn't too fearful of him. anakin shouldn't care where they r.

That's how I took it. What advantage would they have hunting down Yoda and Obi-Wan if the two of them are hiding? They have bigger things to worry about then that.

oh really, if he had known they were still around he would have turned the universe upside down to find them. jedi master strong with the force could tip everything in the favor of the rebellion, and they kind of did that too. If Vader had known they were alive he and the Emperor had been certain that Obi and Yoda indeed was a treath to them

OK Watched ANH last night and here is what I came up with:
Vader tells Tarkin "Obi Wan is aboard"
Tarken replies "Surley he must be dead by now"
Vader say "I must face him Alone"

That implies that Tarkin and Vader know that Obi Wan is alive.

Something else interesting is at the end in the trench before Solo comes in Vader is pursuing Luke, he says "The force is strong with this one" He knows the person in the cockpit is using the force before he even meets skywalker.

Another interesting quote was when leia is rescued and Luke introduces himself, He says IKm Luke Skywalker. She replies "Who?" as if she is totally unaware of the skywalker name.

i remember something about yoda in regards to rotj....it was either in the novelisation, or a cut piece of dialogue from the film....but basically palpatine reads in luke's mind that yoda is still alive, the same way that vader reads into luke having a sister....it was very similar to the vader/sister scene, it may have been replaced by it......

quote:
ALso I read somewhere that he will know Padme had twins, but not sure.
cowboyography

i was under the impression that anakin only thought there was one child, but i can't back that up.....

quote:
Yoda and Obi-Wan found themselves in the classical Sith role "always two there are...no more no less..." .......
ken benobi

actually, quite a few people have speculated that this is what was meant by "bringing balance to the force".....the idea goes back years....

someone on another thread speculated that yoda would fall, much like luke in esb landing on that upside down weathervane/crucifix thing under cloud city......and that this is where bail rescues him from in the red speeder we've all seen.....i think this was just speculation, and wish i could credit the person who mentioned it, but it makes perfect sense to me, and explains why the sith unquestionably believe yoda dead....

why should she have any knowledge of the Skywalker name.
I think the reason why shes says who is because Luke talks real fast and is overly eager so his words aint all that clear.

Yeah, there was never really any indication that Leia should have knowledge of that name.

I guess not, but that means its not common knowledge who Vader is.

I dont think anyone knows Vaders true identity besides The Emperor, Obi Wan and Yoda...........and of course Vader himself

So yes Vaders identity is not common knowledge if it had been Luke would have known about his father true idntity and fate long before he did

that makes sense to me.

yoda hides on dagobah a planet renowned for its dark force aura(remember the cave from esb) so i belive his presence is covered by the dark side of the force making him invisible to the force where as ob1 hides on tattoine to overview luke growing up and eventual rise to jedi knight a prophecy which i don't believe was stopped because palps needed luke to over throw vader and take his place at the emporers side which is why i believe ob1 wasn't hunted just lured

Now how all of this will play out is difficult to tell....
Palpatine and Vader know Obi Wan is alive.....


Yoda is a wild card....they probably are not 100% sure
he is alive or dead because of something that will happen
in ROTS.....
Yoda must have some spectacular escape or something...

I am sure that if Palpatine was aware of Yoda being alive at
the same time Luke was being trained by Obi Wan; a massive
search would've been initiated...

But Palpatine was over confident in Luke's abilities and felt both
he and Vader could cause Luke to become one with the Darkside...

Palpatine is not really aware of Luke's presence until ESB and Palpatine and Vader are not aware of Leia ....

LUCAS wasn't aware of leia 'til rotj....

you might be interested in this information, bail apparently rescues yoda in the speeder post duel, someone has speculated on a scene reminiscent of esb with luke hanging under bespin. sounded really plausible to me.....

if they screw with Yoda, I will be pi$$ed....
if Yoda was so easy to pick off and Palpatine
was so powerful, then he would've been more
then capable by now....

Yoda's fight has to be a ploy for Padme and the twins.....

Yoda has always been able to see the bigger picture;
that is what he was trying to explain to Luke in ESB....

and the Lucas/leia bit is just funny.....Guiro good one....

Interesting info guiro.

cheers all....

kadub, i guess it's possible the yoda/palpatine duel is some kind of planned distraction, but obi wan, anakin and padme are long gone....until i hear more, i'm assuming it's just a long, exhausting fight, where yoda (eventually, after kicking much ass) loses, or retreats (out the window)....then he and bail fly to mustafar to pick up obi and padme in the tantive (probably).....

i have also heard that he is the cause of palpatine's limp and/or facial disfigurement....but i can't back that up....

Guiro,

I have heard the same about Yoda....
I just have a problem with people thinking
Palpatine is all powerful.....

Just as Palpatine hid from the Jedi for all those years;
Yoda did the same to the Empire....

I just believe that Yoda can see the bigger picture, for
the prophecy to come true....

in full agreement kadub.....with only 2 jedi left they would be crazy to risk their lives in a vain attempt as well.....

then the jedi would definitely be finito, no second chances....

i don't think a tactical retreat should necessarily be considered "weak", yoda is a thinker before he's a fighter....

Obi-Wan is assumed dead judging from Tarkin's remark and I'm sure the same is true with Yoda. Especially if the rumors of him disfiguring Palpatine and being injured by him in return are true at all. Either way, you've got to remember that Yoda went to a planet that is literally crawling with life forms, so no one is going to detect him (with the Force or scanners). That bit about the cave was the invention of one of the EU authors, maybe Zahn.

agreed cain, just to clarify: obi wan is not assumed dead at the end of ep III, but yoda is....they assume obi wan must have died in the interim.....

don't know if this is true, but this is how it seems to me at this point...

I think that Vader and the Emperor know Obi-Wan survived, I mean Anakin has to know the last thing he saw before he fell in the lava was Obi-Wan. And it's clear from the lines in ANH that it is common knowledge that Obi-Wan survived. Tarkins tells Vader that "surely he must be dead by now", implying that he must have died since the great purge and before their conversation on the Death Star. Then, during the duel, Vader tells Obi-Wan he "should not have come back." Again, implying that Vader knew that he was out there some where.

What this means to me is that Anakin and Palpatine knew that Obi-Wan was alive, but MAYBE not Yoda. They simply considered him(Obi-Wan) no threat.

I don't believe Vader knew that his children were alive. I'm sure both he and Palpatine assumed they died with Padme. Anakin might not have known she was pregnant with twins, we'll see in the movie(but, from ROTJ we can assume he does not.) What this means is that once Vader senses the force in the pilot that destroys the Death Star, he knows something is up. We also know that Vader has killed Obi-Wan by that time. We also know that Vader says that Kenobi IS on the Death Star and that the Force is with him. As we know, after Anakin's(the chosen one's) fall/"death" at the end of the duel in ROTS, no more force sensative beings are born and that the light sid eof the force exists only in teh world of the dead with the fallen Jedi. This has to raise Vaders eyebrow...or whats left of them. He knows Obi-Wan is dead by this point...so this other HAD to have been born before the fall. This is where the wheels start to turn in Vaders mind.

So, to sum it up: Vader knows Kenobi is alive, before he kills him.(As does Tarkin and the Emperor) Vader knows, after the trench run and destruction of the Death Star, that there is a new force sensative being in the galaxy...and that he is strong. He knows Padme is dead, and that he is at fault. He MAY think that Yoda is dead. He will eventually find out that the force died when he fell to the dark side and will, at his death, know what Kenobi meant when he said "if you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"....by becoming a force ghost himself.

CF,

I agree with most of everything you have to say, but with a twist...

I dont think by what we know of ANH/ESB that Vader really knows for sure if Luke is not alive; the trench run is like a confirmation of his perceived thoughts.....

In ESB, Vader is quite adament in his statement to Luke "I am your father" there is no wavering.....
Vader doesnt know of Leia.....so that tells me he is not really sure he ever had twins.....
Lucas will hang himself if he goes back on that.....

The Emperor/Vader/Tarkin are all aware of ObiWan but not his present state...
Nobody is aware of Yoda except ObiWan .......
And nobody is aware of Leia and except Yoda and ObiWan....

capt fantastic, you summed that up well, and kadub's additions complete the picture the way i see it at this point....

the only thing is the rumour about the force dying when anakin turned to the dark side was apparently debunked shortly after it came to light.....it still could be true (official sources may have snuffed it out to throw us off the scent), and i actually found it quite interesting myself (need some big twists in this film), but the last thing i heard was that it wasn't true....

Guiro,

Thanks.....

Cool, I'm glad we agree. But Obi-Wan doesn't know about Leia. Yoda tells him "there is another" when Luke goes off to confront Vader on cloud city. Also, I'm sure that Vader is sure Luke is his son....there's no question there.

People could have aptitude for the Force in the time of ANH, Vader's just making a comment in battle. It seemed that Vader didn't really know until the Emperor tells him about the "son of Skywalker" in ESB. But that scene has now been altered so we'll see.....

yeah, actually obi wan seeming to not know about leia is something i had noticed.....i think it was a hole lucas accidentally left in esb, because he hadn't actually decided who "the other" was (i've heard mark hammil was convinced it was a way he could be replaced in the 3rd film by luke's long lost brother)....but what i wonder is how lucas will approach it in ep III....obi wan needs to use the bathroom just before leia is born, and misses it?.....very tricky....

i've always had the feeling vader senses something MAJOR about luke, from the scene on the death star just after he's killed obi wan, when he lumbers towards the closing door.....i know he's wearing a mask, but he just always seemed....erm....don't know how to explain it....distracted in a quiet, lost way....(best i can do)....gobsmacked, maybe....

i don't know whether he knows luke's alive before that, i wouldn't be surprised either way.....it reads both ways.....

I thought (for a while) that Obi was being sexist because he doesn't think Leia could do the job. But now, I begin to think that he wanted to remind Vader of who he was with Luke's similarities. Or at least to distract him with that so Luke would have a chance to kill him. I almost think Obi and Yoda have two different ideas about what should happen......

it's always implied that yoda has at least a little more insight into the big picture than obi wan i think....

maybe they don't put so much emphasis on leia because of specifics in the prophecy...."son of suns" and all that (whatever it is)....

Maybe.....
But as far as we know, Vader doesn't know of Luke till the Emperor tells him. In fact, on the DVD, Palpatine refers to him now as the young rebel who destroyed the Death Star. Did Lucas think that should be clarified? Maybe.

i'll have to watch esb again, it's been a while....i'm basically undecided on whether vader and palpatine know luke survived....i'm thinking no, but that vader's sensing some weird stuff in anh that he hasn't quite pieced together yet....is the esb crawl the one with vader "obsessed with finding skywalker"?....

dunno, i will have to hit the sack soon, it's weird that palpatine refers to luke as the son of skywalker in the new dubbed scene when he's talking to vader......i think if you were going to change anything, that might make less sense than the original version....but i need to watch it again to refresh my memory...

Yeah, these forums make me want to skim through the OT. I liked that scene the way it was, but I'll reserve judgement till I see it. Well, I'm gonna split, later.

I think ObiWan is aware of Leia, because of the way the conversation about leia is picked up in ROTJ....
Yoda is definately aware of the situation of both Luke/Leia....

Vader/Anakin has his suspicions about Luke in ANH; but remember he has probably never seen Luke or not since he was a child; so he would never know what he looked like.....it is after ANH that Vader's suspicions are confirmed....

The Emperor doesnt know anything, til Vader tells him of Luke....
now the Emperor is aware of the threat of Luke.....

Neither the Emperor or Vader are aware of Leia til the fight in the throne room.....

'Yoda is the true master of disguise'

This might not be exactly on topic, but has anyone ever wondered what Vader thinks when he sees C3PO in the OT? "hhhhhhpppppp......hmmm there is something familiar about this droid.....hhhppp...I sense a presence....". Of course he might think nothing of it because it's a pretty common droid too, but isn't it odd how Lucas is tying R2 and 3PO into every event in both the old and new movies? Luke's running around with the droids that served his dad. Just a thought..

Well, Ken Benobi, you bring up a point I haven't heard (or seen) anyone mention in quite some time....
Does Vader stop Boba Fett from firing because that's his droid? Maybe....
But probably Vader knew Han would stop Chewie from going crazy.

DC you just reminded me of something. Folks have been talking about Vader knowing or not knowing about Luke or Leah's existence. Well, in the scene you referred to, when Han is telling Chewie he has to protect the Princess, remember how Vader looks at her and she has that frightened look like...he's coming for me next, or he's wondering something about me....it's like he Vader knows and Leah knows something too, even if she is unsure of what she knows...

He does? She does?
Since I started posting on this site, my memory has been tested greatly.
I need those dvds; I'm too lazy to fast forward through video tape.
Hmmmm..... maybe she feared what Vader had in store for her, after all, she'd experienced his interrogation in ANH. Sith have their ways of getting information.

that's true- they had met before......

but when I see that scene from ESB it's like Vader is looking at her differently than before....like he senses something- seems to imply something more, like Leah was responding to whatever Vader was doing or thinking at the time...

Maybe he picked up atrace of the Force and attributed it to Luke arriving?
Keep in mind he has no clue of her potential. Um, I just thought of something- that must be how she's safe around Vader because with no knowledge of what she can do, she won't draw on the Force. That would make sense because in the PT kids had to be tested.....
Hmmm, in ESB Leia is developing a bond with the Force on her own. At the end of the movie she hears Luke's call.... Interesting, I never thought of it like that.

True, another good point...because he(Vader) apparently doesn't think much of Leah until Luke's feelings betray her in ROTJ

Yeah, maybe in that scene Vader is thinking to himself "geez, I had one of them right in front of me!"
So far, the best thing about this new trilogy has been the info that gives us a glimpse into Vader's thoughts. I'm sure that's part of the point, but still.
I had always wondered what might be going through Vader's mind when he watches Luke get zapped. With these movies, I have several ideas. Its great discussing these things and not fearing the nerd label.

lol

well I find it interesting....that Anakin's life is so messed up. So much crud happens to him, yet he has a good side to him. And Palpatine has all these evil plans for him, of which most succeed. But here's the kicker for me. It's as if one of the dark side's triumphs so to speak is in gloating over how Anakin has been turned over, given in to his anger and hatred, and how he supposedly can't be saved. And when it comes down to it, the dark side is evil, full of hatred, you can see what and who the emperor really is when he zaps Luke. Anyway, whatever benefits there were to to the dark side, they came to a fizzle when Palpatine fried Luke. Way to go emperor, lol, Vader loves his son after all.....chosen one under his nose the whole time....

Not that an up-and-coming Sith like me has ever been called that.......

it's like no matter how hard Palpatine schemed over all those years, he actually ends up fulfilling the chosen one prophecy by having Vader near him lol and he couldn't "see" it

Heck, even Luke knew that overconfidence was Palpatine's weakness. That's one of the best exchanges of dialogue in that movie, by the way. But, its easy to be too confident in yourself if you're him. Y'know he just remade the galaxy in his image is all......

I think in another thread someone said that the weaknesses of the jedi and sith were very similar, and I am thinking they refer to the jedi from Episode II, who were pretty much blind. If you think about it, it is pride that blinds all of them every time. Maul was gloating over his victory when Obi-Wan leaped up and had Maul beside himself. And actually, I think the very way Obi-Wan found himself hanging there was pride blinded him while he was fighting Maul. And Palpatine was blind in his pride, and didn't even see Vader coming behind him....

Who ever that was made a very good point. I just pictured a shark and the jaws music when you said he didn't see Vader coming, don't know why.

Anyway, who knew that good old non-Force having Han Solo had the best advice when he said: "Don't get cocky".

yeah... perhaps the Jedi Council should've emphasized the "Pride leads to a fall" program more than the "Fear leads to Anger" program

Vader/Jaws thing...yeah I could see it...kinda scary....you know same guy too John Williams did both scores...

You're right. For some reason I just had this image of Vader moving in real slow before he grabbed the Emperor and chucked him down that shaft. I must be tired.....

You're right about the curriculum, too. Forgot to agree there.

Vader's thoughts are all over the place in the OT,
first he finds out that ObiWan is back, then dead..
Then there is another force user, and DANG! I had
him ....
Then, he fights Luke and Luke denies him.....
Then he finds out about Leia but Luke is trying
to take him out; then he has to be saying to himself somewhere

"I had Luke/Leia in my grasp and I let them get away..."

"Oh, by the way.....those look like my droids"

Krazy

Good points, Master Kadub. Its almost like the point of these new movies has been to let us what was in Vader's mind in the old ones....

that's always been my secret to enjoying the prequels.....they can be a complete load of bollocks, as long as they add depth to my appreciation of the originals....

the points stated above are all good to me....

an additional thought on the kenobi/maul duel.....obi wan fell because he was using anger and tapping darkside energy, leaving his concentration off-balance, when he was hanging he had time to compose himself, and then could finish the job....

Guiro,

Good point......but the duel with Maul made ObiWan a great Jedi;
not average.....he learned to deal with his emotions and the darkside...
which i am sure is what helps him to deal with Anakin and Palpatine in
ROTS.....

Obi became a better Jedi because he learned when to keep his focus on the current moment, like Qui-Gon told him.

i still think it's technically the best duel in the saga....
didn't mean to imply obi wan did badly at all....
ken benobi's post gave me the thought that maybe obi wan ended up hanging in the pit because at that point he wanted revenge for the death of jinn....and was fighting with anger....just for those few brief moments....

it had just never occurred to me before.....wondered what other people thought....should have put a question mark....

i don't think i said he was only average as a jedi....

MAybe... he looked more struck by the loss and the shitty situation he was in. Was it anger? Dunno.... He didn't particularly fight as if he was furious, he looked very much in control.

i assume your talking about TFM duel.

obiwan was struggling to control his anger.
you could see the way he looked at maul "you son of a b****"
during the duel, he stayed in control though...until the last strike,
he is consumed by anger, clouding his mind, giving maul an opening.

then the force push

just slo-mo on the dvd, and tell me you dont see the burning anger in obiwan's face.

...its not like he was falling to the dark side, but he was letting his mind be clouded by passion.

Well, is being dismayed at a Sith for all his wrong doing definately evil anger, where one would let the Dark Side in? He's showing emotion for the loss, but I don't think Jedi are forbidden to have emotion. Even Yoda gets annoyed when he trains Luke, can hardly call that Dark Side anger.

i've always felt the fury in that duel (the one on one part).....that's why i think it's technically the best one (and this is a big admission for me being original trilogy guy)....it seems real to me, i really feel it (and the moves are good as well)....i think he's in control though....

quote:
Maul was gloating over his victory when Obi-Wan leaped up and had Maul beside himself. And actually, I think the very way Obi-Wan found himself hanging there was pride blinded him while he was fighting Maul.
benobi

that's what gave me the thought, that it was anger rather than pride....just thought i'd throw it in....i'm not sure i even believe it myself...

sorry, took too long posting....what PVS said....

Who knows... I don't even know what the thoughts are about that. I mean, in ROTJ we can SEE Luke really tapping into his hate and anger. Palpy applauds him for it. Here, it's not clear at all what happens.

I personally didn't 'feel' a damn thing during this fight except for: it looks a tad too perfectly choreographed to me. Wonderfully choreographed but a tad too perfect.

i don't in the two on one bit....but i always loved the one on one ending....

i was just riffing on benobi's points.....