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Will Anakin fulfil his promises in Episode III?


Anakin makes several promises in the first two Episodes. One of them is that he will return to Tatooine to free his mom(but she is now dead) but he also dreams of becoming a Jedi and freeing the slaves on Tatooine(TPM). Another one, which is more of a vow, is where Anakin says he will become so powerful he can even bring someone back from the dead, or prevent them from dying(AOTC). The question is will we see him do any of these things in Episode III, or will those visions be more failures?
tabletalk

well Im thinking the first 2 are a moot point there Ken, but I'd LOVE to see the 3rd fullfilled.

I've analyzed this and I think he accomplishes them to some degree. First he says he'll come back and free his mom, which he does, he frees her from the Tusken Raiders. He says he dreamed of being a Jedi, and he's an official Jedi Knight by the time of Episode III, so that's done. He says he'll "free all the slaves", and if you think about it, when he kills Palpatine in ROTJ he frees slaves all across the galaxy, or at least knocks out the first nail to break down the structure. Then he says he'll learn to STOP people from dieing, not to bring them back from the dead. He in fact stops himself from dieing when he falls in the pit, correct? He also stops Luke from dieing, and in doing so, he partially fulfills the line "I wasn't strong enough to save you Mom, but I promise, I won't fail you again." Eh? Lol

Good points NoFate

Hmm...interesting. I'd say the first two are reasonable. Not so sure about the third but it would be cool as well.

Dieing=Dying
<-------smartass!

if i remember correctly his line in AOTC is 'ill even learn to stop people from dying'.
if you think about it (maybe too deeply) by giving him the vader suit sideous does actually stop anakin from dying, so technically after sideous explains the ins and outs of the suit then anakin will have learnt how to stop people from dying.

ok so i missed 'nofate007' 's post!

my mistake lol 'hangs head in shame'

yeah but in ep2 he makes it sound like he is a god and that whats the emperior teaches him to use force choke to become so I think he does fill all promises for now may force be with you.

"i will even learn to stop people from dying" could translate into his cyborg bionics.

Force Choke isn't a godlike ability. Luke's an amateur and he uses it on the guards in Jabba's palace. All the Force attacks are normal things that anyone can use, with the only exception being Palpatine's ability to cloud the light side in the prequels.

I remember reading a synopsis somewhere where Padme is injured and Anakin is desperate to save her. Palpatine lures him to the darkside with the inclination that only when he has embraced his dark powers can he save her life. Padme pleads with Anakin not to but he is stricken with guilt and fear for her life. He falls to the power of the darkside and Palpatine assists him in saving Padme.

I just thought that was interesting considering what's being discussed.

Something that's been stirring in my thoughts a while resurfaced with something nofate said about "Anakin freeing slaves when he threw Palpatine in the pit". When people talk on the subject of "bringing balance to the force", most views I've heard are that the balance was restored when the Jedi were eliminated down to the last two, Yoda and Obi-Wan, because the imbalance was due to the numbers of the Jedi.
But come to think of it, didn't Palpatine control the Jedi? Because, he had clouded the minds of the entire counsel and they were all playing right into his hand, and were really no different than pawns. It seems to me that the imbalance would tip to the dark side because he controlled the Jedi and all that power, which would later multiply when the Jedi were destroyed. So I could see the fulfilment of the "chosen one prophecy" take place when Vader kills Palpatine....

Does anyone think that the stop people from dying has anything to do with the force ghosts! The first time he goes bonkers i.e tusken village is the first time we hear a dead jedi qui-gon, it makes me wonder that as he goes more towards the dark side it somehow brings about this force ghost thing??Is he inadvertantly stopping people from dying???

The "Preventing people from dying" one is realised in ROTJ when he prevents Luke from being killed by Palpatine.

actually, the exact line is "I'll even learn people to stop from dying"

and imo, the freeing of slaves... no
free his mom... no, but he technically did when he took her off from the wood-thing she was hanging on in the Tusken Camp

but the preventing people from dying? yes!
He IS the Chosen One, you must see this! OB1 didn't die and Yoda didn't die, they became a ghost, so they didn't really die, so that's what he does

he wont free the slaves

& Its palpatine who puts Anankin in the suit and 'stops him from dying'

unless anakin creates the suit b4 the duel(which is unlikely)

i believe that in the novel it is explained that luke actually puts the guards to sleep.

but in the movies it's a weak attempt of grip/choke, so that's the way to go by

but that's not what to go by.
it's just speculation. unless i am missing some official info that is.
granted, it does look like a choke, but to accept that is also to accept
that luke is already falling to the darkside at the beginning of ep6, so why did
yoda not notice this in his meditations?

the jedi can always here the dead and sense anakin was with qui gonn they just don't show up like yoda and obi-wan for now may force be with you.

i think anakin's promises are irrelivent.
his promises simply illustrate his good intentions,
and the irony that those good intentions would lead to him turning into the prince of darkness.

he frees no slaves when he becomes a jedi, he just allows himself to become one. he DID fail his mother by turning evil. im sure shmi was spinning in her grave at like 4500 rpm when vader sat back and watched alderran be destroyed.

and stop people from dying? only stops himself from dying, with help from palpatine.

u know....i dont know if there are any slaves in ANH.....come to think about it.....
Jabba is pretty much operating in seclusion although the Empire is aware of his actions....
Tatoonie is like a trade station, not a slave camp or whatever....

Vader has come to understand the powers of life/death i am sure of that.....because he was crushing throats left and right in OT, so I am sure he learned to do the opposite.....

kadub, good point....there's nothing to say slavery still exsists in the ot....(oh, except jabba's geisha girls)....but other than that, i can't see anything....I always thought the free the slaves thing was a big hint of things to come later in the prequels, but i guess not....i get the feeling lucas might have changed some of his original plan after the bad response to ep I. Remember when he was insisting jar jar was a very important part, and would become a great hero in the next 2 episodes.

quote:
I remember reading a synopsis somewhere where Padme is injured and Anakin is desperate to save her. Palpatine lures him to the darkside with the inclination that only when he has embraced his dark powers can he save her life. Padme pleads with Anakin not to but he is stricken with guilt and fear for her life. He falls to the power of the darkside and Palpatine assists him in saving Padme.
Lyn

I heard stories like this a lot back when all the first spoilers where coming out. The only difference being that palpatine lied. The idea was that he tells anakin he can teach him how to do it, and anakin is desperate to know so he succumbs. I'm not sure if it fits with what we've heard since.

I think somewhere along the line, he got mixed up with the life/death reversals

erm, i'm getting pretty mixed up myself....you mean he was supposed to save padme instead of killing her?....at the time i thought it was supposed to mean he became a sith to put right what he had done to padme, but palpatine lied....padme died......and anakin has yet another tanty....

sauron, i think its time to fix your anatomically incorrect sig

Not only that.

"but that's not what to go by. it's just speculation. unless i am missing some official info that is. granted, it does look like a choke, but to accept that is also to accept that luke is already falling to the darkside at the beginning of ep6, so why did yoda not notice this in his meditations?"

The books are not 100% canon. And if you look at Jabba's guards, they distinctly grab their throats and fall down. Now I don't know about you guys, but when I go to bed my hand isn't on my throat.

As with the issue of "Luke is already falling to the Dark Side by Ep 6", no. Despite the fact that Sith use Force Lightning and Force Chokes and whatnot, that doesn't mean that they are strictly Dark Side techniques. EVERY Force attack is used by everyone, can be used by anyone (the strength and accuracy is what differs), and is not just sanctioned to different sects of orders. Obi-Wan isn't only allowed to do a Force Push or Throw, if he's in a fight he's "allowed" to use a Choke or Lightning. It doesn't matter. And for those that say Luke "taps into the dark side" when he fights Vader in Ep 6, that's wrong too. Luke was angry, and remember, anger LEADS TO the dark side, it isn't the very essence of it. If that were true then you're saying when Kenobi says "You know I hate it when you do that" then wait a minute, HATE LEADS TO THE DARK SIDE, oh god now Master Kenobi you're a Sith now? Lol.

My theory on the "balance of the Force", though its never been fully explained, is this: The destruction of the Sith is the balance of the Force, not due to having 2 jedi and 2 Sith or something lame like that, but that there are 3 fully functioning ATTACKERS of the Force. You have the Jedi on the light side (ONE) and Dark Jedi and Sith on the Dark side (that's 2). So right there, there is an off-balance. That's 2 on the evil side, and one on the good. With the destruction of the Sith, that means it is Light side Jedi vs Dark side Dark Jedi. Then its an even 1 on 1 fight, and not 1 on 1 on side note 1. With the death of Palpatine, there are no more Sith ever, so then its an even fight, and even means balanced, and the fight is with the Force, so an even Force fight is a balanced Force. I still say, he fulfills his intentions by my previous posts.

All that "what can a Jedi do or not" seems to be mainly derived from games. The movies, the canon, say nothing about what techniques can or cannot be used by dark or light side users. All we know is that so far apparantly, only Dark Side force users apply the lightning. And yet, OB1 doesn't seem to be very surprised by it in AOTC.




A very complicated way of saying what Lucas has said a number of times: there is balance when there is no Dark Side i.e. no Sith, if the Sith are there the Force is out of balance. It hasn't got much to do with scales or even sides. Lucas is trying some sort of spiritual balance and that in the SW universe is LIGHT ONLY.

ok, you want canon?

"the force must be used for knowledge and defense, never for attack"

a force choke against a guard who in now way attacked luke, is following the dark path. all the guard did was his job, block luke's path, not hurt him.

and yes, the book is not canon but neither is opinion.

ok, did you see the saliva dripping from lukes mouth and the crazed look in his eyes? how can you say he wasnt tapping into the darkside? the whole point of that scene was to creat a moment of empathy for vader.

in an instant, luke lets his hatred take over, and he becomes just like his father. thus him looking at his own mechanical hand and realizing that he was doing the wrong thing, and becoming another vader.

immediately after he tosses the saber away and declared that he will never give in to the darkside.

cant get more clear-cut than that.

So what do you think that Gamorrean Guard was up to with Luke walking in like that? Invite him for tea?

they were just blocking his path.

they crossed axes in front of him and nothing more.

and he gripped them

well, lets not go off on the ol' "did luke force choke the gamorean guard" tangent, because there is no confirmed facts on it, so we could go on forever.

Leave the sig be

Its gollum, he can twist like that

Anyway, back on the topic of "Anakin's Promises"...

oh wait, forgot to comment on this: "A very complicated way of saying what Lucas has said a number of times: there is balance when there is no Dark Side i.e. no Sith, if the Sith are there the Force is out of balance. It hasn't got much to do with scales or even sides. Lucas is trying some sort of spiritual balance and that in the SW universe is LIGHT ONLY."

What I was talkin about is that since there are the light side fighers (Jedi) and the dark side fighters (Dark Jedi), then there's another dark side fighter (Sith). So there are 2 fighters for the Dark side and only one for the light, but with the destruction of the Sith then its only one on the light side and one on the dark side. If Anakin had found a way to destroy all Dark Jedi and the Sith would exist, then it would still be in balance because then it would be one on the light side (Jedi) and one on the dark side (Sith), with the third one out of the party.

Now, back to the thread, lol

The force pushing droids does seem like an attack on the droids, but it could aslo be considered defense because the droids are trying to kill them as well. Just depends on how you look at it.

Again: Lucas doesn't use scales for balancing the Force... There's no number crunching on that, it's a spiritual thing.

not "how you look at it" smx,

droids attack, then kenobi force pushes them. had he not defended himself,
the outcome would have been him getting shot.

yoda means that you cant just pick a fight when you are a jedi. unless you are being attacked, or the lives of the innocent are threatened by that particular being, you must find a peaceful solution.

Yup, sorry nofate, you have that all wrong.

And PVS is correct. Jedi carry lethal weapons- Lightsbares are not subdual devices. Jedi accept the fact that they sometimes have to fight and kill as part of their job in defending the Galaxy. A lightsabre kills someone pretty darn harshly; using the Force as a weapon is not fundamentally dsifferent- though powering it with dark emotions would be. Just because Yoda was pointing out that Jedi do not aggressively seek conflict, this does NOT make them pacifists! They are fighting a war, after all...

the whole idea of jedi being non-agressive often frays at the edges....check how much obi wan enjoys killing that praying mantis thing in the arena....real satisfaction there.....it happens a lot, particularly obi wan.....

on the topic of luke being susceptible to the dark side, i always thought this was meant to be the case.....this is why yoda sends him into the cave on dagobah, and explains what he encounters there....i always thought when obi and yoda were worried about luke facing vader too soon, that this was as much (if not more) of a concern than him simply being killed.....

he's had a hell of a lot less training than your average 6 year old padawan, and yet he's expected to face a challenge that is too great even for yoda.....on top of that he's got "too much of his father in him".....impatience, and a certain tendency to stray towards the dark path....

he's nowhere near a sith in rotj, and he's an extremely good natured guy in general, but he's so inexperienced, and so lacking in the frame of reference of being around other jedi that he wouldn't even know using the force choke was a bit odd....he's flying blind.....

and throwing away his sabre in the final duel.....he's either incredibly intuitive, incredibly lucky, or damn stupid....

feel like watching return of the jedi now.....

Who says a force choke is a dark side thing????? Bloody EU...

I'm sure the Force chokehold wasn't something Yoda taught. Unless its okay to do it like Luke did- just a quick move to get an aggressor to back off but with minimal harm? That's actually better than Kenobi's uhhh..... disarming opponents.

Luke throws away the saber after he looks at Vader's stump, then his own replacement hand and realizes he's about to follow the same path and become what he's fought against. I'm sure he didn't know the Emperor could throw lightning at him and he'd have no defense. Like guiro72 said he was flying blind. Although Yoda tells him to beware the Emperor's power or he'd suffer his father's fate.

its just a common sense thing queeq, does lucas have to explain everything?

(vader force choking admiral ozzel) "i am now tapping into the dark side of the force to kill you ozzel, not the light side, mind you"

whenever a force choke is shown, it is vader doing it, and there is an ominous earthquake-type sound thundering. also, the victim struggles, as opposed to dropping right away.

and is the novel based on the script considered EU?

Luke does use the choke for a second on that Gammorean in Jabba's palace, but for just a second to get it to back off. Intent is a large part of what makes something a dark side move. Obi-Wan takes off someone's arm and cuts another guy in half, who knows what he'll do to Grievous? But you would accept that he's not dark? Intent.

im looking for an old classic commercial

it was for the throat lozenges/cold treatment sweets called "tunes"

it was a star wars theme and had vader stalking around the imperial meeting table with all the generals. he is breathing in the crazy vader tones and one of the generals says..."ahem...excuse me...lord vader...perhaps you should try these" and pulls out a packet of tunes and vader proceeds to force choke him

anyone sees this on the net , lei me know or link the bich

TY

did Luke had the intention to squeeze the throat of the Gamoreans shut? getting them killed? no! he wanted to get through

did Vader wanted to kill all his officers with a choke when they weren't performing like he wanted? yes! he kills them, he has the intention of doing them harm

the force feat or how you wanna call it is always strictly neutral, it depends on who uses it with which intentions you do it, if it is to harm someone, it's bad, if not, it's not

omg i must see that!!!

What a lousy argument. Vader ignites a light sabre... Is taht tapping into the Dark Side too? Just because VAder does something doesn't make it a strcitly Dark Side thing. The canon doesn't mention, as far as I know but please correct me if I'm wrong, the Force Choke being a Dark Side thing. So why conclude Luke taps into the Dark Side...?

trust your feelings....you know it to be true....

Nope.

What is this strange idea that Luke has to be 'taught' Grip as if the way it works is that people attend lessons and the teacher says "Hi kids, today we are going to learn force power x or y..."

Power with the Force includes a certain amount of effective telekinesis. Luke learns to push and pull without any teaching- one can conclude it is a natural power.

There is nothing special about grip. It is not a special 'anti-person' power. It is simply that exact same telekinesis being used to squeeze a throat. Doesn't have to be a throat- couuld just as easily be an arm, leg or even a carrot. It probably takes fine control to do it so delicately over such a specific area, but in essence, how can the ability to squeeze be innately evil?

It is what you DO with potentially lethal things that counts, and as yerssot says, Luke is not using it to torture or kill.

Amen. Hope that settles it!

no it doesnt! i'm right, your wrong, and thats that.

just kidding...ush has a good point, but the igniting lightsaber arguement is weak. the point is about using the force to attack one who is not the aggressor. as ush pointed out, luke may have been using it to simply stun the guard...the question is...is that an act of aggression...maybe yes, maybe no.

the other question is, do they condone such methods in the jedi order?
i guess when i think force choke, i think force lightning. you never see jedi using force lightning do you? would have been quite handy in that geonosis arena wouldn't it? so howcome noone uses it? would you guys think that its a darkside technique?

i would hope so, because otherwise, what are the perks to being evil?

No, it's not. The only reason you say Force Choking is bad is because you see Vader doing it.



I see Luke choking, where else would he have learned that but from Yoda? And as USh said, it's the same thing as lifting objects and squeezing a carrot. Indeed, we haven't seen Jedi using Force LIghtning, but that doesn't prove anything. I saw Yoda doing some amazing stuff with fireballs...

The evil is not so much what trciks they have up their sleeve but for what purpose they use it. evil is in the heart.

besides Luke not killing the guards unlike Vader did a few times, did you miss those two big vibroblades they used to cut him off perhaps?

i dunno, if someone challenged me to a fight in a pub, and i grabbed him by the throat and started throttling him, that just seems a bit more macarbe than a straight out fist fight.....the same as the lightning is more a form of torture than just disabling someone....it's just how it's always struck certain people, including myself, on a gut level, without really thinking about it.....i don't know how to debate it (or why really), it's just always seemed that way to me

seagrave out....

first off... this is star wars, this isn't a pub fight

secondly... Luke didn't grab him by the throat with the intention to kill/hurt him, he wanted to get them to split. Why did he pick choke instead of push? the same reason he wears dark clothes and having a shot in the battle with Vader where his face is half in the shadows: to show his struggle with the dark side

and as third point... with the lightning... you're implying Yoda made the same mistake too? the all wise and almost perfect jedi?

the guards just blocked luke's path.

yoda was deflecting lightning that dooku shot at him...try again

yeah, and would the guard think "hey, if he wants to pass again, we'll just show how hard we can swing these blades and hit a nearby wall"
they are guards and will use the weapon if needed

why try again? he aimed it back at Dooku didn't he?

quote:
first off... this is star wars, this isn't a pub fight
yerssot

my point was that was my gut level reaction to it, without thinking, so to put it in an everyday context.

quote:
secondly... Luke didn't grab him by the throat with the intention to kill/hurt him, he wanted to get them to split. Why did he pick choke instead of push? the same reason he wears dark clothes and having a shot in the battle with Vader where his face is half in the shadows: to show his struggle with the dark side
yerssot

that's what i said

quote:
and as third point... with the lightning... you're implying Yoda made the same mistake too? the all wise and almost perfect jedi?
yerssot

as pvs said, yoda didn't produce...."for defense, never attack'

and dammit, i said "seagrave out"

i'm bowing out of this one....

he knew dooku could block it, as he easily did...however surprised he looked that yoda could deflect it.

the reason i brought the lightning up is the question of whether or not its a darkside technique, not whether deflecting it towrard the attacker is evil.

if it's pure about a jedi using it for defense... shouldn't Yoda have absorbed the first attack too? and STRICTLY defensive, they can't kill anyone then...

like said a few times... it's not a darkside technique as there is NO lightside/darkside when it comes to using the force! it's all about the person and his intentions!

erm... remind me...what's the topic again?

dude, dooku attacked, thus the fine line between defense and attack was crossed. of coarse they can kill when the situation calls for it, as has been demonstrated.

and as for as the philosophy on ALL force techniques being ok to use, where is the official explanation for that?

the topic? i forgot

Its all about the intent behind it and how its done. Vader acts with malice, Luke does not. Vader- attack, Luke- defense.

so what's the use of defense/attack that if the attack is set you can do what you want?

and what DC said

i struggle with this myself, but the fact seems to be, ridiculous as it sounds, a jedi uses any means necessary when that line is crossed. thus yoda deflecting the lightning back at dooku, and obiwan force pushing droids.

oops...posted twice...D'OH!!!!

As long as there's not hatred behind the actions, I guess the jedi is in the clear.

yeah, i guess.

so maybe one has to give in to hatred to shoot force lightning...hmmmm

look, all i know is right...wrong...whatever....the jedi never seem to use it.

so.......why?

why would you need hatred to use it? you just need to use the force to do that

the force isn't light or dark, there is only ONE energyfield, not two

and how do you know that, pray tell?

about the force lightning, not the single energy field.

Hmmm..... Well, maybe... uh...... Maybe they don't consider it to be polite? Or, uh, y'know maybe they do and we just haven't seen one do it.

He knew Dooku could deflect it??? That's INSANE posting! You reckon he wasn't trying to fight Dooku? That when he swing his sabre at him it was ok because he knew DOoku would block it every time??

That was a fight, not a garden party! Your objective in a fight is to pout the other guy down as fast as possible. The reason Yoda did not zap Dooku with the reflected Force Lightning was that he couldn't- as Dooku so succicntly summed up a few moments later.

It's not impossible that only Hatred can cause Force Lightning, but we can only speculate. Indeed, we have never seen a Light Sided Jedi do it, but that's not necessarily definitive. I have no problem thinking they cannot do it, though.

As for the choke... it's a non-lethal way of restraining someone. Modern day police are trained in chokeholds to restrain someone without having to cause serious injury; using the Force for that does not strike me as Dark Side.

What is this extreme simplicity in people's views of Luke being tested by the Dark Side? You think he was so stupid that he was accidentally using the 'evil powers', or something? Doesn't Anakin's story show you that the road to evil is rather more subtle than that?

I think that anybody can use any Force attacks, and what Yoda meant by the line "for defense, never for attack" is meaning that they wield the Force as their ally, not their gift. They use the Force for all means, but they don't use it for evil intentions. Attack is generally considered evil, but if you notice, no Jedi ever starts the conflict in any of the fights in the movies, so they are in fact the ones that are defending themselves:
Qui-Gon vs Darth Maul---Darth Maul attacks first
Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul---Darth Maul lights his lightsaber first and makes the first move.
Obi-Wan/Anakin vs Dooku---hell, Dooku started a WAR.
Yoda vs Dooku---Dooku shoots out the lightning before Yoda does ANYTHING attack-wise.
Obi-Wan vs Vader---Vader has his lightsaber already lit.
Luke vs Vader---Vader has his already lit.
Luke vs Vader ROTJ---Granted, Luke takes the first swing of the battle, but not at Vader. He took the swing at the guy who created all the mess in the "star wars" in general, so he started it from the beginning.

The guards in Jabba's palace could have just let him go by, but they showed that they will use a means of attack if need be. Luke simply didn't go into a huge battle with them, he took it easy. If the guards had let him go, he wouldn't have used that attack. That's why he doesn't kill everyone in Jabba's palace in order to get to Jabba. Something that someone EVIL would do.

i wouldnt call it INSANE ush, perhaps incorrect.

anyway, the arguement i was stating was that yoda did not use force lightning simply by deflecting it. and yes, why should yoda care whether or not it hits dooku right between the eyes, the line had already been crossed.

"It;s not impossible that only Hatred can cause Force Lightning, but we can only speculate. Indeed, we have never seen a Light Sided Jedi do it, but that;s not necessarily definitive. I have no problem thinking they canot do it, though."

now, in your statement ush, you went from "its impossible that only Hatred can cause Force Lightning" to "i have no problem thinking they (the jedi) cannot do it"

does that mean you think that a jedi not using force lightning might simply be a matter of etiquite? well, i must argue that such a move is motivated by hate.

"only now in the end do you understand...."

(as palps zaps the living crap out of luke, with nothing but hate in his eyes)

"....your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side."

that tells me that the dark side presents its own powers, not just an upgrade of already existant jedi powers...

EDIT> good observation NoFate, and remember luke's test at the cave in ESB...he ignited his saber first...and at that point i reckon, he had already failed the test.

also, i will go further...and defeat part of my own arguement, but the truth is the truth...so....

the guards stood between luke and his friends, who were in grave danger.
therefore, they threatened the lives of the innocent merely by blocking his path. however, had luke just been on a mission, i think such a move would not be warranted.

thats the only justification i can see in luke using the force to physically affect another being in any way. mentally....thats another story i guess...

"credits will do..."

"EDIT> good observation NoFate, and remember luke's test at the cave in ESB...he ignited his saber first...and at that point i reckon, he had already failed the test."

That's what I believe too. Once he decided to take his weapons despite what Yoda told him, he failed the test. I still don't understand how that cave is "a domain of evil" and how those images popped up...but eh, I guess you've just gotta look past that.

how can you question anything that goes on in the star wars galaxy?
its one really messed up place!

Learn to read. It's only courteous.

But to answer the essence of your point... for all we canonically know, it may be that Jedi simply don't know how to do it. Like I say, I am amenable to it requiring darker emotions and so being out for Jedi, but we have no way of KNOWING that, for sure.

Yes it would have been warranted, if the mission was justified. Jedi are entitled- indeed expected- to use reasonable force.

For my 10p worth, lightning = darkside, its too aggressive a power

The Jedi in my stories use all the Force powers to their advantage. And the lightsaber fights aren't played out so it looks like they hit each other's swords instead of actually trying to kill each other, more cheap moves and whatnot that you'd expect to see in a fight to the death.

Ushgarak, you have good point regarding the Force lightning and Jedi not knowing how to do it. After all, they didn't know about becoming part of the Force after death. I think even if they did, however, that it is an aggressive move that doesn't seem like something a Jedi would use.

What USh said.

If you are referring to the Prequel Trilogy fights... then you are not analysing them very carefully. Nick Gillard knows what he is doing.

damn, are you just in a rotten mood?>
i wasnt trying to be rude, no need for you to tell me i cant read, plus you didnt post the rest of the quote:

:does that mean you think that a jedi not using force lightning might simply be a matter of etiquite? well, i must argue that such a move is motivated by hate."

thats not a sarcastic question, im serious. do you think its a matter of etiquite?

all i know is whenever a sith and only sith use force lightning, they first decare how much more powerful they are than the jedi.

"as you can see my jedi powers are beyond yours...now back down" *zap*

"i have become more powerful than any jedi....even you" *zap*

"if you cannot be turned....you will be destroyed"*zap*"...your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side"

now, lets establish first that only sith use lighning. most find it obvious but some argue even that point. the evidence is there, the jedi never use it. they MAY learn of it, since obiwan unflinchingly blocked it with his lightsaber...so perhaps he had prior knowledge of such a technique. KNOWLEDGE mind you, not the know how or the will to use it.

so if that is accepted then the question is this.
do the jedi not use force lightning because:

-they dont know how to

-they are taught that it is a darkside power

well, yoda states that the darkside is not more powerful, just quicker, easier, and seductive. so perhaps using lightning is kind of a....boundless release of power...like letting the levy break you might say, a loss of control. we know that control is essential to a jedi, right?

so is it fathomable that a jedi has the ability to use force lightning, but the act of doing so is corrupting to them?

all i know is yoda absorbed that lightning like it was nothing. im sure he knew what was up, and how to defend himself. so if he knows how to block it, adn deflect it, is it not conceivable that he may know how to use it? i think so. i think he could if he desired, but the path of the light side forbids it...my take anyway.

On the commentary for Episode II, Lucas himself says the dark side is more powerful. And we can't trust Yoda and Obi-Wan's every word, because if we did we'd be getting caught up in someone's "point of view". Yoda just says that so Luke isn't tempted, notice how quickly he juts in with NO.

well, maybe GL's POV is wrong

damn, who can we trust then!?!?!?

ok PVS the sig is freakin me out now......everytime I see it all I can think of is Julie Andrews for goodnes sakes.

she's all i can think about when i see that anakin pic...

so if i must suffer, you all must suffer

discussing this will be endless since up to this point it's all about your own pov on things

imo, they do know how to do it... OB1 blocked it without thinking. Yoda blazed it back and in the other attack he just absorbed it.
You can say that they got that info from more than a millenia ago during the 'Sith Wars' (like Ki Adi says in TPM) but to keep that info when people think the Sith are destroyed is rather weird to do.
And personally, I would think every jedi can do every force"move" there is, just a padawan in example can't jump as far as a master cause he isn't that well trained or doesn't have the knowledge of certain techniques, and he can't do ie do lightning since it is too difficult for him to master yet.

and I said a few times already that I do not see a difference in force powers, they are from one big energyfield, it's your intention with it that makes it darkside or not... but the only thing I can think of which makes lightning a good thing is if you're in need of some light, in other words, I don't see the good in lightning, so that's perhaps why jedi don't use it?

I'll stop telling you to learn how to read when you note that I answered your questions as much as needed already in my answer.

You're only going over the blindingly obvious now, PVS. We've only seen Sith do it, but we can only SPECULATE why Jedi don't.

That's pretty much the end of the matter, so if we can return to topic please...

oh boy...ok fine whatever

As far as this trilogy is concerned, Anakin will fail because he, too, becomes a destroyer of lives.

And IF they don't. Just because we've seen two Sith use lightning doesn't mean JEdi can't. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Yeah, I agree there. When TPM came out, I was not up on all the Jedi and Sith moves, so when they showed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan force-run I was like yeah!

Minds are polluted by EU games.

They sure are *cough-they consider Force Lightning and Choke and whatnot as Dark Side powers-cough* lol

i'm only going to say one thing on this matter and then i'm gonna leave it, because without proof one way or another, this will go on and on in circles the way it has been....

force lightning is a form of torture, the jedi could do it if they wanted but choose not to.....

torture is dark side....there's no other way to see that power than as a application of great cruelty....

the choke could go either way, it leans towards torture, but not as much as the lightning...the way luke used it didn't seem to involve too much cruelty....

Dunno. SOunds great to light the BBQ.

You're only referring to lightning being torture when Palps was torturing Luke. If you notice, Dooku never tortured Anakin, he used it to throw him aside and left it at that.

And to light the BBQ for Sidious. Palpy has great garden parties.

oh, come on that would have hurt like a bastard.....jedi usually only fight with sabres which doesn't hurt the opponent, they just deflect off each other....

i know there are exceptions to this, but they're more like plot holes...

running away really fast is a jedi power, and lifting heavy objects, the power of suggestion/mind control....

why am i still here?....

What nonsense. I saw none of that in the Arena battle in AOTC>

droids dude.....

i'm outta here...

And Geonosians...

cockroaches....

Living creatures making up the Force.

kill 'em all.....

the jedi were under full attack, it was war rules....

and they're still just cockroaches....

they deserved it....

I'm not condemning it. But don't come saying Jedi are sweet people who use their lightsabre only to deflect iother people's attacks and then invite them to tea. They are KNIGHTS!!!!

As long as its for defense- themselves or others.

Sometimes attack is the best defense. After all, they're defending peace and order in the universe, not so much individual living things. If an attack is needed to prevent disorder and chaos, attack sounds like a good defense to me.

The only thing is, we know for a fact that Jedi Knights attempt to use peaceful means first. Even in the cantina, Obi-Wan tries to talk the thugs out of killing Luke first.

Of course, the y try to avoid a conflict. Like they did at the very beginning of TPM. But if diplomacy fails, there's always the lightsabre. All I'm saying is that Jedi aren't a bunch of sissies when it comes to battle.

They sometimes call themselves Jedi Knights, but in the end, they are simply "warrior monks." They don't use unnecessary offensive moves, and they figh according to extremely strict rules of engagement. It is obvious that the Jedi would never use force lightning. Only in stupid EU and video games would that happen.

You can exercise restraint, and at the same time not be a sissy. And in the end, there is just no need for them to use force lightning. Can you actually imagine Obi-Wan being cornered by General Grievous, and then using force lightning to get the upper hand? It doesn't even pass the laugh test.

look, the whole "no evidence" thing works either way.

perhaps i am mistaken, but perhaps the cons to my arguement are mistaken as well. your arguement is valid as well, but you in no way prove my opinion wrong.

there is no point in debating this further, since it is purely opinion.

and no, i am not tainted by "eu games" just by the films.
i see that sith are the only ones using lightning, so i speculate.

since its all opinion, i fail to see the reason for such a heated debate,
i can see now that its just pointless.

You're not talking to me, right, even though I also mentioned EU games; 'cause I'm on your side.

darth, im making a general statement, that was in no way aimed at you

i can just forsee this debate running around in circles till episode 3 comes out.
and i would also be so bold as to predict that the debate could run long after.

something tells me this particular issue will never be proven

Okay, I'm glad.

I don't understand where the Force Lightning suddenly comes from. That was all beside the point. And it may be, as Ush said about a million times, that the Jedi don't know how to do it. They may be familiar with it, but perhaps not ABLE to do it. Who knows.... but it has nothing to do with the peacekeeping attitude of the Jedi.

Jedi are warrior monks, its about time someone said that! Excellent, Darth Surgent, show them the true path....

And?

Well, monks aren't really aggressive from what I've seen. That's where the conflict in the Jedi concept comes from: passive and aggressive. Plus calling them monks takes them down a peg.

What about the warrior bit then. There's no militant word I know that sounds so aggressive.

it's weird, i was just about to post something eerily similar in another thread (samurai monks, i was thinking)....

i said a few pages back, this is like a political debate, no one's gonna change their mind so you know there's no point, but you just can't help going back to it again and again....

force lightning is a form of torture, the jedi are supposed to be like what sherrifs or cops would be in a perfect world....they're not supposed to torture people....

True. Is there even such a thing as a warrior monk? It does sound contradictory....
But that's Lucas' concept: knights with a spiritual aspect. That's they dress the wat they do.

It exists. To me it says something about the nature (peaceful attitude, keepers of what is righteous) of these people but also something about the fervour for the cause: ready to defend what is right at any cost, even if it means fighting to the death.

a cop's supposed to act when the situation calls for it....to keep the peace....if you think any of this makes them "pussies", you might just have watched too much WWF...."brother".....

i disagree guiro

"we are keepers of the peace, not soldiers"

they resolve disputes on a diplomatic level.
they're not cops.

I am a jedi and you will respect my authoritor

upholding the law can get messy....but you get by....one day at a time.

No, no. Don't drag pro-wrestling into this, please. Jedi use their sabers when there isn't an alternative, but their default setting is Peaceful Resolution. We just don't see a whole lot of it because lots of talking doesn't make for a good action movie.

Ok, topic is obviously all done. If you want to talk about the nature of a Jedi, open a thread for it.

Closing.