You like religion here...so....

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Papaumau
Do any of you believe that the state should allow the religious powers to dictate that single-denomination faith-schools should be provided so that each individual religion get's taught alongside the other three Rs.

OR... like in America... should the state and religion stay completely separate...especially in our primary school system ?

finti
other 3 R? hmmmmmmmm which 3 would that be?

Papaumau
Why...reading, riting and rithmatic of course ! smart

It's OK Finti...it's only a saying !

finti
oh ok I thought it was 3 religions big grin.
Well in Norway they do teach chrisitainity from grade 1 - 10. And that the fact that The Lutheran Protestant church is the state church as well you know where the way of teaching goes. Now if the parents dont want to let their kids participate in those classes there are alternatives to what they are thought, like lifestyle and so on. at it sums up to is those taken out of the christianity lessons end up in goofing up lessons (like the lifestyle thingie).
I went through school with 9 years of chrisitianity so I kind of chocked on it after a while

Papaumau
Hmmmmmmmmm....It's different in Norway than here !

In Britain we have the "state" schools which are multi-denominational but are built around a vague Christian base. Then we have the state-funded single-faith schools, most of which are Roman Catholic. Then we have a few, ( a very few ), single-faith state-funded Jewish, Muslim and Sikh religion schools.

There is a large body of protest, ( of which I am a part ), against the teaching of one single religion to the detriment of all of the others in STATE education.

We feel that if the religious enclaves want to teach their single religion at primary level they should not do it with state finance or do it in state school buildings. We feel that each single religion should be taught by the priests and the ministers in the places of worship and not in the state schools.

We believe this as we are of the opinion that teaching single religions to children while they are supposed to be learning the "three Rs" is divisive and creates a religious apatheid that is unfair to these children.

If religion is to be taught in British state-schools then it should be an awareness of ALL religions and not specific to just one...including Christianity !

Fire
In Belgium it depends, you have state schools, who supply you with either Roman-Catholic believes or Morals (morals is for atheists) and more recently also the islam was added.

then you have private schools (who get their income from somewhere other than the state) most of these are roman-catholic (like the ones me and yerss went too) others are muslim or atheist, plenty of choice for everyone.

Very few of the roman-catholic schools are highly religious tho

yerssot
I categoricly deny these accusations of me being catholic no expression

Fire
never said you were catholic I said the school was roman catholic

Silver Stardust
In the US you've got public schools, where religion isn't taught (due to seperation of church of state...though saying that it's not taught is kind of misleading, I'll go into it in a bit), private schools (often high schools that concentrate on a specific subject -- math&science or the arts are the usual ones...though sometimes they're just a private school that's not a religious one), and parochial schools (which for the most part are Catholic). I went to a public high school, but I had nearly gone to a private high school that concentrated on the arts (too far away and too expensive, though), and I had a number of friends that went to Catholic school.

From what I understand, at Catholic schools they have prayers and such every day and church services, but they also learn about other religions, too, and you're not required to be Catholic to attend one -- one of my friends who went to a Catholic high school was a downright atheist. But no one can deny that for the most part, they ARE the top of the US school system.

When I said that religion isn't allowed to be taught at public schools, though, that isn't quite 100% correct. Basically what seperation of church and state means is that in a public school, you're not allowed to set aside time during the day for prayer, not allowed to teach that one religion is better than another, etc. If you're in a philosophy or history class, though, religion will come up, especially if it's a world history class. I took European history, Eastern Asian history, and US history, so I learned bits about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Confucious (I think I spelled that right), Shintoism...etc. But what we were taught about these religions or philosophies what basically how they started out, how they effected history, their influences on cultures, and their influences today. We only learned a brief outlining of each religion/philosophy's beliefs (and I remember many the debate in my Asian studies class about whether or not it is possible to actually achieve Nirvana...but I'll not go into that). This, I believe is necessary for a history class, because if you know a bit about an area's religion or philosophy, it helps in understanding the culture and people and history of that area.

But do I think that there should be schools that teach only one religion, excluding all others? No.

Darth Revan
Well about religion in public schools here... I don't know if this is the case in Illinois, Trin, but we have a lot of religious types around here who are constantly pestering the school board about this and that. Over in Springfield (which is a smaller town a few miles away from where I live... I know this because my mom works in a public school there), the public schools aren't allowed to put up Halloween decorations or have parties for the younger kids because it's "satanic". That's not really a very big deal, but get this--it is REQUIRED now that they celebrate Christmas in some way. Even if the teacher is Jewish or Islamic or something. Fortunately I think Eugene is pretty safe from that, since the religious people who do live here are always commenting on how it's full of "non-believers".... And hey the Oregon school system is so ****ed up anyways it's not like it makes a big difference stick out tongue

WindDancer
My personal opinion is that we should keep religion in churches, synagogues, cathedrals, temples, or whatever in those places. We should keep Education in schools. I really don't see a reason to keep Church and school in the same place.

Fire
true WindDancer, but when religious organisations pay for the education you can expect they want something in return.

TowelTarpin
Nice sig

WindDancer
Well, thats the school board system at fault. Whoever runs the system *cough*politics*cough should held responsible. Anyways, if a kid can't tell the difference between a crucifix and a microscope than the parents must step in and say "Hey! I want my kid to learn NOT to be convert"

Silver Stardust
Wow, that's pretty screwed up...at my high school we didn't celebrate any holidays but Halloween...and basically all we did for that was we were allowed to wear costumes (the teachers did it, too), and teachers would give out candy or something, that was it. Sometimes individual classes or clubs would do something (like in my German class, and I know the French classes did this too, we'd get candy and stuff on St. Nicholas Day, and the German Club always decorated a Christmas tree in the teachers lounge). But then again, little old Brookfield with it's two elementary schools and single middle school (my high school wasn't even in my town) isn't a particularly religious town...

(but I'm not even going to go into the hell one of the school clubs, the Gay-Straight Alliance, got from parents...roll eyes (sarcastic) )

TowelTarpin
What the **** are you talking about? You are not even making any sense. You should go to the bathroom, look in the mirror and look yourself in the eyes and say "There goes a stupid, stupid human being."

As a matter of fact, the next time you are in the bathroom, you will remember this post and look in the mirror and say "There goes a stupid, stupid human being."

Fire
it ain't that bad in belgium trust me, a lot of ppl who graduate from a catholic school grow up to be non-catholics.

Our school system has always worked like that and it will continue to work like that for decades to come. You can also go to state schools they don't teach religion unless you want too.

Religion (mostly christianity) is such an important factor in the history of europe, that most of european society is filled with it. It is very hard to try and avoid the influence of Christianity as a whole in Europe, it is in fact nearly impossible.

Silver Stardust
Exactly, I mentioned that in my first post.

(and just a note...had I lived actually in Chicago, I would have gone to a Catholic school, instead of a public school)

TowelTarpin
You're an idiot.

Fire
okie quite a bit of important info here:

From what I understand, at Catholic schools they have prayers and such every day and church services, but they also learn about other religions, too, and you're not required to be Catholic to attend one -- one of my friends who went to a Catholic high school was a downright atheist.

In Belgium we don't have prayers every day (some old teachers used to say a prayer or make a crusifix but nothing organized) we learned about other religions more than we learned about christianity (maybe it was because of my teachers) and no you do not have to be a catholic to be allowed in a catholic school.

Silver Stardust
...we're trying to have a serious discussion here. If you have nothing to add to it, stop bothering us.

(that was to TowelTarpin, btw)

Fire
Memberbashing is not allowed.

Jedi Priestess
Star hes been reported several times we just waiting for a mod hun idiots abound

Silver Stardust
About the Catholic school thing -- I dunno, maybe it's different here than in Belgium, or maybe it was just my friend's school, but they said a prayer every day at the end of the day, and I think they had a church service when it was nearly a holiday -- Christmas, Easter, etc. But they also didn't have to participate, it was purely choice. I have no idea what they learned about other religions or how much they learned about others as opposed to Christianity, just that they did learn about other religions.

(thanks Fire and JP and WindDancer...how do I always manage to piss people off? I'm not doing anything...confused )

WindDancer
I reported him. Just ignore that person. Attention seekers are to be ignore.

Fire
nah never anything like that (atleast not to my recollection maybe yerss his memory serves him better) schools in belgium are pretty laid back and stuff like that. nothing like the pledge of allegiance and stuff like that.

Silver Stardust
Heh, in Illinois they passed a law saying that they had to say the pledge of alleigance in high schools...I choose to exercise my 1st Amendment rights and not do so, though big grin

Fire
btw just wondering but what the hell is the first amendment (should memorize the order some day)

Jedi Priestess
I went to a Catholic grade school and I Catholic highschool, we went tomass once a week and atended religion classes daily. But they were always on Catholism not anything else. Non-Catholics did not have to participate. It isnt you Star he's trolling all the forums. messed And you need to get your butt to SWW and post you've ben negligent in your duties! eek!

Fire
SWW?

Silver Stardust
First Amendment -- freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom to express yourself...etc.

Sorry about that JP, I've been kinda busy...I'll try to get on there by tomorrow big grin

Jedi Priestess
for Fire

Amendment I

Amendment II

Amendment III

Amendment IV

Amendment V

Amendment VI

Amendment VII

Amendment VIII

Amendment IX

Amendment X

Amendment XI

Amendment XII

Amendment XIII

Amendment XIV

Amendment XV

Amendment XVI

Amendment XVII

Amendment XIX

Amendment XXI

Amendment XXII

Amendment XXIII

Amendment XXIV

Amendment XXV

Amendment XXVI

Amendment XXVII

Fire
freedom of a lot of things mesa figures. nice idea but freedom of speech and freedom of the press can both go too far.

Jedi Priestess
check my profile Fire and hit homepage for SWW info.

Fire
ooh another board sure ok

Jedi Priestess
LOL you asked eek! I put the ammendment list up 2 posts above this.

Silver Stardust
Something we debated to death in my gov't class...there are limits to it, such as you're free to do as you want so long as it doesn't infringe on another person's rights, saying or doing something that incites violence ("fighting words"wink aren't allowed...

Fire
thx JP I don't agree with the second one I think

Silver Stardust
These days the 2nd one basically means only that each state has the right to maintain a militia.

Fire
and a state needs a militia for what reason?

Silver Stardust
pfft, don't ask me...

Fire
maybe the constitution needs modernizing

finti
and this relate to religion how??????????

Fire
we're idd getting off topic thx finti

Moo Cow
well, i kinda like how here the state and relegion are completely seperate...i dont know why...but ive always had to go to a catholic school, and so we've never really had to worry about drugs and stuff at our schoo, we dont have metal detecters in our door ways, its really safe.

but since the state and the school are completey seperate, all of the school funds come completely from the student tuition, and tuition was really really high at my old school. the state didnt give us anymoney like they gave the public schools, so we didnt have a school bus service or slot of the nice things public schools have.

Silver Stardust
Discussing the seperation of church and state led to discussing the constitution...and seperation of church and state is in the constitution...so we weren't too far off topic stick out tongue

finti
yeah cause the militia fits right in there stick out tongue

Silver Stardust
Fire said he disagreed with the amendment and I just clarified the meaning of it stick out tongue

finti

bardock
towel i nominate you for worst member in recent kmc memory

Tptmanno1
OK just to clarify on a quick tangent, then back on religion.
Fire> the second amendment was based on the revolutionary war. The Amendment in full basicly says that you can have arms and the right to overthrow a corrupt government. It is basicly preventing what happened before our revolutionary war, and ensuring that, if needed the people can rebel. It prbably should be modifyed but we have sooo many Gud toting, "Out of my cold dead hands" NRA (national Rifle association) people that you can't touch it. They would literaly be up in arms.


I've been going to public schools all my life, and I love it. I love separation of church and state. There is nothign I hate more than people who shove their beliefs on me. We've had Christmas little celebrations and such, but we did the same for various jewish holidays and such. I usually choose not to say the pledge and such too.

Fire
what kind of ancient relic is that, you don't need a law making sure the ppl can rebel.

Tptmanno1
yea, But ya can't touch it.
death to any politician who dares.

Fire
yea probably, sad thing tho, we reformed our constitution 9 years ago

Papaumau
Children's minds are empty-boxes waiting to get filled with all of our adult hangups and one of the worst hangups is the habit of passing on a particular religion just because of the accident of your birth.

If a child is born to a family in the West he or she will have a very high chance of being born into Christianity and if that same child was born to a similar family in Iran or Saudi-Arabia or even The Philippines they would probably be born into Islam.

The opponents to state-funded mono-religion schools see this example extended to mean that even although the child is bound to be brought up in the religion of that family, the state should not collude with that family to indoctrinate the child into any one particular religion to the detriment of all the others BEFORE they can make up their own adult minds about what religion - OR NONE - that they choose to follow.

By forcing any one religion down the throats of innocent children the state is denying that child his or her choices where this matter is concerned.

If it is done in Churches and Temples and Synagogues then the indoctrination of these innocent children is the responsibility of the parents and no-one else.

Tptmanno1
Couldn't have said it better!

Fire
there are very few countries I think where parents can't choose for atheist schools

Papaumau
Not in Britain...Fire....

In Britain we don't have any secular - never mind atheist - schools.

Secularism is the answer here as then the base is not from any religion but if the need or the desire is there then religion can be introduced by choice later on.

For a bit more information on Secularism go here and have a look:

http://www.secularism.org.uk/

Capt_Fantastic
Religion has no place being funded by the state....at least not in a country where the seperation of church and state are in the laws. That kind of thing is why we "hate" the middle east and the theocracies that rule there.

And more importantly, don't be fooled into believing that there is a seperation of church and state in this country. This country was founded by religious fanatics that were run out of their own country because they believed the persecution IS the right of every god-fearing, protestant homophobe racist. It's like they were too radical and severe, so they were forced out by their countrymen that wanted nothing more to do with them. It's like listening to a hellfire and brimstone baptist telling you you're going to hell, eventuall you get tired of hearing it. So much of the history of this country has been written by the bible thumping, hymn singing, sunday school teachers that it makes me sick. Propaganda is the basic principle of this country.

How many of us learned that Thanksgiving celebrates the realization that the pilgrims and the native americans decided to live together in harmony? ALL OF US. The truth is that there were no happy indians smiling and sharing with the pilgrims(mostly because they were too busy dying from European diseases) in their time of need. Thanksgiving didn't even exist as a holiday until the time of Lincoln.

Like Hitler said: "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it." And we are fools for not questioning what our government tells us...in fact, we're fools for not seeking the whole truth from anybody, be it god, our fellow man or martians that land in our back yard.

And don't misunderstand me: I respect your right to think I'm going to hell, or that another human being is inferior to you. But the moment you take action on those beliefs, you're the guilty party. And that makes you wrong. Damn me in silence, because I have no desire to hear it.

Fiery Eyes
I thk, that becuz so many peeps have taken God out of school, thats why there is more shootings, drugs, fights, ect...going on in the schools today. T-shirt my kids have: DON'T CARE WHAT YA SAY GOING TO PRAY ANYWAYS so many say, you can say this or that in school cuz it offends if you mention God, blahhh blahhh to them, what they are saying is offensive to us christians, so, whats the diff there?

Christianity needs to be in the shcools.

Fire
every school in brittian teaches religion even state schools?
Weird never would have thought that

Papaumau
Fiery eyes......

Although I would not advocate the teaching of any single religion to any young kid I would fight and die for your right to do this. ( That was not coined by me BTW ! ). This is the basis for democracy and the freedoms of the West, flawed as they certainly are.

The basic fact here is that we do not need religion to be good people or to treat others with kindness and respect. Neither morals nor ethics rise from organised religion, they rise from inside the person via the conscience.

Every human that is not mentally ill KNOWS when they do wrong and they do not necessarily become better people just because they have a religion to teach them how to behave.

That, my dear, is a copout !

Tptmanno1
CF> I agree with you, but your history is a bit off. The religious people came to the US to escape worldly sin. It's accually quite interesting.
And ABout thanksgiving, it was basicly the biannual harvest festival that the Puratins had in England, but yes it was blown outta proportion.

FE> every school Does NOT need to turn into a religious brainwashing propaganda house. But I guess it would be fun to rebel against all the teachers. I wanna go to school to learn, not to have beliefs shoved down my throat.

Papaumau
Fire.....

Just to clarify my statement above about all the state-schools in Britain teaching religion.....

The majority of state schools in Britain are what are called NON-DENOMINATIONAL.... but this just means that they accept pupils from all of the denominations without actually teaching those individual denominations to the individual pupils.

Having said this it IS true that all state schools in Britain are built around a loose base of Christianity where the Christian ethic gets the edge over all of the others. Some of these state schools are very weak when it comes to RI ( religious instruction ), but even these schools must follow the national curriculum, which includes basic Christian teaching.

These non-denominational state schools also try very hard to educate their pupils about the other religions of the world as this is part of general learning.

The other "faith" state schools are run by teachers, priests and nuns that are all specifically interested in pushing one faith in particular.

The Roman Catholic state-schools teach the national curriculum from a base of Roman Catholicism and the very few Jewish and Muslim and Sikh state-funded schools are the same as the Catholic schools.

Strangely...in Britain, our "Public" schools are in fact our private schools that may be subsidised by the state but they are in the main financed by the parents of the pupils that attend.

Here too many of these "private" schools are single-denominational !

Fire
Pap. As I said earlier the whole of europe as we know now it is formed for a great deal by christianity, to build state schools around a loose base of christianity where christian ethic gets the edge over all of the others is not such a bad idea.

Papaumau
Fire....

I didn't say that it was a "bad" idea as even the religious schools do not teach how to be "bad", I just maintain that if a person wants to be religious they should decide to be religious from an open and mature mind.

If children are indoctrinated - when they are very young - into one religion over all others then they will find it very difficult to un-learn about that religion when they start to think for themselves. I know, "I was that soldier" !

To let you understand a bit better where I am coming from:

I was indoctrinated into bigoted Protestant Christianity while I was growing up in Northern Ireland and it was not until I was about sixteen or seventeen that I started to question this indoctrination. I did not become a fully-fledged atheist until I was about thirty years old. This conversion was a difficult and painful process that could have been avoided if I had not been indoctrinated in the first place.

Darth Revan
Bullshit. The reason we have more school shootings in school today than we did a hundred years ago is because guns are more easily accessible to kids. My dad owns some guns, and I know how to shoot them. However, he drilled into my head from day one that guns can kill people and to never, ever point a gun (even an empty one) at a person. Every time I even picked a gun up, he always made sure I checked to see that it was loaded... I could go on, but you get the general picture. My father has never been a religious person.

The other reason for school shootings is kids getting picked on and bullied by "cool" kids. That's something that used to happen to me a lot, and honestly, if I had been older and had access to my dad's gun cabinet... The results wouldn't have been pretty. And I'm not a violent person, I'm very opposed to using military force unless it becomes absolutely necessary. Guess who the kids who bullied me all the time were? The ones I saw in Sunday school every week. Obviously they weren't the only ones, but they were the "ringleaders", so to speak.

CF> Actually, you have the Thanksgiving thing a little backwards... The first thanksgiving that we talk about today was attended by almost a hundred local indians and a handful of European colonists. It was basically a big party... But you're right when you say that it didn't come to much historically. This country has a history of being racist, sexist, and homophobic. The "Texas Rangers" that we glorify so much today got started by driving out Mexican immigrants in the 1800's for no reason at all.

Fiery Eyes
I never said anyting shld turn inot a brainwashing propaganda, i just things its a bunch of BuLL to say, you can pray cuz it offends someone at their graduation, thats a bunch of Bull...it OFFENDS all of us christians ther person saying that, there is no diff there. smile

Jedi Priestess
Now this is where I have to say something. I am truly AMAZED at how many young people complain about having the say the pledge of allegiance in school. It's a pledge to your COUNTRY not a religious statement......if you are going to go off on that kind of tangent then I highly suggest you switch currency if you live in america because the currency says "In god we trust", and you are living by a double standard if you really believe one and not the other. I think when people go to this extreme it's silly. I said the pledge my entire first 8 years of school and I never EVER once thought of it with a religious connotation.

Jedi Priestess
Revan, the reason we have the school shootings etc is mainly the PARENTS of these students. People simply dont pay attention to what their kids are up to these days because they are busy earning the almighty dollar to live the good life. The parents of the Columbine kids were completely CLUELESS. You cant blame all this on the bully thing there have ALWAYS been bullys. In my opinion the whole damn country has gone to hell in a handbasket. I have seen kids at school speak to their teachers in ways that would have gotten me slapped SILLY when I was in school by my father when he got wind of it. Parents cant even discipline their children anymore without fear of social services stepping in. When my son was in 4th grade one morning right before school he told me to F off and I promptly slapped the crap out of him. I will NOT tolerate that kind of mouth out of my kid. But I didnt send him to school for the day because his cheek was red and I was scared to death they'd call social services. Would I do it again today.....he's 21 now......damn skippy I would. I am appalled the way kids talk today.

Jedi Priestess
I have always wondered......suppose you die and find out there IS a god.......what will you say to him then? I mean Id really like an answer to that from anyone who's an atheist. SUPPOSE you are WRONG. What then? I mean if I die and find out there ISNT a god what have I lost really? But if an atheist finds out there IS a god and hes been denying them all this time I think thats gonna be kinda messy for your soul messed Please understand Im not being flip, I really want to know.

Fiery Eyes
Yeah, what then?? i'm going to say, you're screwed, too late then. confused

Fiery Eyes
I thk it's also utterly ridiculous that peeps complain about the Pledge of Allegiance....I agree w/the JP, switch countries if you disagree so highly w/it. This is America, this country was founded on God!!!!!!!

finti
and where does the US constitution appeal to god?

Fire
JP atheists believe there is no god, so they normaly don't even consider that possibility.

Well if the Law (and the first amendment seems to do so) allows ppl for not saying the pledge if they don't feel like it, I don't see why they should switch countries JP

finti
to say the pledge of allegiance should be a voluntarily task. When I lived in Arkansas they took pride in saying it so good for them, me being a Norwegian could only observe, standing beside my classmates of course. Standing out of courtesy and respect for the US and their will to pledge an allegiance to the flag.

Jedi Priestess
Fire hun, I know they dont consider the possibility. What I am curious to is the WHAT IF part.

And my point about the pledge was that if you arent going to do it for the "god" reason and yet you are willing to carry currency that says basically the same thing, then in my book thats a double standard.

Capt_Fantastic
You can survive without saying the pledge, but you won't get very far without any money. People who choose not to recite the pledge can do so with a minimum of reprise, but there's nothing you can do about it being on our money. It isn't a double standard at all.

There are two ways that "seperation of church and state" can be viewed I guess. Either as a total seperation of the government and god or as the seperation of the government and any single religion. The latter meaning that it can support god without supporting a church.

But, those who view the latter as the case are saying that the christian god is valid and over another. So, when you get right down to it, there must be a total seperation of the government and any religion. What goes on in another country is the buisnes of that country and it's people. But here in America(no matter who founded the country and why they came here) there is a LAW that says there is a SEPERATION of CHURCH and STATE.

Debates like the guy who wanted a monument to the ten commandments on the court house lawn can not take place. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make a comparison...the religous right say that the mayor of San Francisco disregarded the law by allowing gay couples to marry in turn support the govenment endorsing one religion over another. Then when they get over ruled, they say "It should be up to the people of that community to decide" if they want the ten commandmants to be memorialized on the lawn of the county court house or posted in schools....but by the same standard, why isn't it up to the people of that community to decide on gay rights in THAT community?

Fiery Eyes
Prayer!!! It worked back then, & guess what?? It still works today.

Fire
weird constiution, they are nagging about the division between state and church all the time but then according to some there is something about god in the consitution WEIRD

Fiery Eyes
Being picked on in schools is NOT a new thing, rather you agree or not, i thk more school shootings take place cuz everyone is trying to take God out of the school. They complain at graduations, geeezzzzzz if someone wants to pray, it's their graduation Too.

Papaumau
JP.....

That, in fact, is a very good question and one that as an atheist I have been asked a few times.

The answer is simple:

If...or rather WHEN, I die and the curtain falls...if I find myself in heaven or hell, ( if I have been deemed to be a bad person ), then I will just have to accept this and hold my hands up and say I was wrong.

As I think I am a fairly good person I would hope - even as an atheist - that I might go to the Klingon's Stovo-cor or the native American Happy Hunting Grounds or whatever you want to call it...and I will be pleasantly surprised.

If I find that after I die there is just nothingness for eternity, then I will be expecting this, will not be disappointed and will have to accept it....BUT....If one of the faithful dies and there is no heaven they are going to be TERRIBLY disappointed.

No disappointment for me, as I don't expect anything in the first place, but a pleasant surprise if I find I am in heaven.

If I do finish up in heaven I will just have to say to whoever is in charge up there that I was just a foolish old atheist and would I be given the benefit of the doubt.

After all...your God is supposed to be a loving and forgiving entity is he not ?

Surely he/she/it will forgive me that one mistake - as after all he/she/it has never supplied any incontrovertible proof down here that he/she/it exists at all - so he/she/it is bound to get punters appearing before him/her/it, all mixed up.

Do you think that I would be denied entry to heaven after that one silly mistake ? smile

Capt_Fantastic
I agree with you 100%. But anyone that wouldn't agree would say that the answer to your last line would be "yes"

Papaumau
Yo...Capt'n...

You said: ( After I asked if I would be denied entry to heaven just because I had foolishly chosen to be an atheist while I was down here )...



Not a very loving or forgiving decision that !

If that IS the case then that God of the faithful is really a nasty piece of work after all and is the jealous and vengeful and selfish God that some say he/she/it is in parts of The Bible.

I just cannot see such a supreme being being like that at all !

Capt_Fantastic
Neither can I. In reality, I don't see god paying much attention to us at all.

Darth Revan
I didn't say bullying was a new thing, I said kids being able to find guns easier was a new thing. Which it is.

And I've never seen anybody being prevented from praying on their own in school. It's just that it's not right to make EVERYBODY pray when there are perhaps only a handful of Christian students in any given class.

Capt_Fantastic
I'm not sure why gun violence is so much more prevelant than it used to be. There have always been bullies, there have always been guns and there have always been disturbed children. I don't know if it's more news coverage or what, but it's an interesting dynamic. I know Michael Morre would say it's the fact that so many guns are around, but I don't think that's it. There are guns in all countries, but you don't have 12 year olds blowing each other away everywhere. I think when it comes right down to it, we just have a really screwed up society.

Tptmanno1
Yea, but it IS differen't here. The attitude towards them is different. I don't exactly know how to describe it, but the way America as a whole views guns, its different than other countries.

FE> I will not pray in school. I came to school to learn facts, not have opinions shoved down my throats, if I want that I'll watch Fox or something. I will flatly and curtly refuse to pray if a teacher asks me, and if they get me in trouble, I will get them fired.

Papaumau
What I think that is required to make gun-use so prevalent anywhere is just a few simple options....

1). Easy access to guns.

2). A casual attitude to their use.

3). A perception that guns are acceptable in ordinary society.

4). A society that feels and widely accepts that guns are supposed to be used to settle arguments.

5). A society that will use guns to rob and assault as they are the best tools that they can find easily to do this job.

6). A society that has an endemic gun-culture that is supported by the country's Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Any one or more of these options is liable to encourage the easy use of guns but only one country has them all.

Jedi Priestess
Typ....having that kind of attitude towards a teacher is alot of whats wrong with the damn school systems. There are kids all over who think that its their way or the teacher is going to pay. I am NOT saying you should have to pray in class if it goes against your beliefs. HOWEVER I am saying that you can politely refuse and if that doesnt work you can go to the office and call your parents and have THEM come explain it. Many of todays students have absolutely NO respect for their teachers. And Im sure we will get the old "well the teacher doesnt respect me" line from someone. But you know what? There is a limit to the amount of that particular type of "respect" that the student is entitled to. You are a STUDENT, a CHILD, a TEEN whatever....and I dont care if you are 14 or 44 ALL people should have respect for people older than themselves. And the PARENTS of students shouldnt always assume that their little darling can do no wrong or is being treated unfairly. I have worked in the school system for many years and it PISSES me off to NO END, when some idiot kid has done something deliberately in violation of the rules, gets in trouble for it and not 30 minutes later here come mommy and daddy to bail their precious child out of the trouble they are in. Ive have 3 children and my son was a holy terror. And ALWAYS when I got a phone call the first thing I always said after I heard the principal or teacher out, was I'm sorry and then I said whatever punishment you see fit I will support. For that matter , when my older daughter was still in high school she had an English teacher that was admittedly an idiot. Courtney hated her with good reason. One day this teacher told my daughter to work on something specific and my daughter promptly told her to go to hell. She came down to my classroom to relay what had happened and I sent her ass right back up there to apologize for her mouth. I was raised with the phrase "you will respect your elders" drilled into my head and thats the way I raised my children. When I was 21 I was having a rather heated argument in the car with my father and I said F you to him. The man reached right across the front seat and slapped me silly. And do you know what I said in return? "I'm sorry Dad I know better."

finti
SO then I ask again were in the constitution are these prayers then

Tptmanno1
JP>
A) My parents will not bail me out, they are moderatly christian. not like me.
B) This is different from refusing to do an assingment. and If you notice that I said I'd curtly refuse. I'd protest if refusing to pray got me in any trouble. If you haven't noticed, I take great offence to people trying to shove their beliefs down my throat. And that is the biggest example that I can think of short of the governemnt forcing that. Forcing students to believe the way they do is just plain wrong no matter how you look at it.

Fiery Eyes
Sin is the reason so much more violence is taken place today. Thats why there is more shootings, rapes, fighting, stabbings, robberies....ect You take God out of School, you bring more sin into the school system. No where have I have said anyone shld be made to pray. If somene wants to, then they shld be allowed not matter if it offends them or not, becuz them saying that, offends christians, it works both ways.

The bible is a guidline to live by, the reason you wouldn't have an entry into Heaven is obvious in the bible. Athiest/sinners: Rather you thk you've sinned or not or that your a good person & shld be allowed into heaven, The bible plainly states that Jesus said: if you deny me, i'll deny you before my Father. That to God is sin, so by the standards of the Word of God, you would not have an entry into Heaven. You have been told about Jesus, you just simply don't beleive. That is a reson for NO entry.

Respect is not only to someone that is older than you, Its anyone that is put into an authority position. Kids have gotton worse these days. I have a friend one time, Her older son was teaching her younger one to do drugs. She threatened to beat his butt off and he said if you touch me i'll call the cops on you. HMMMM you know what she did, NOTHING!!! I'M like are you CRAZY, i would have beat the living day lights out of that kid and handed him the phone to call!!! I said, LET the social services take him, does he thk its a picnic being a foster care?? NO way would my kids ever talk to me like that or threaten me like. Thats whats wrong w/alot of parents, they let their kids do what they want.

Fiery Eyes
Did i say it was in the Constitution? NOPE i said our Country was founded on God, and it was.

Tptmanno1
So the lack of God automaticly means an influx of sin?
Thats extrordinarily arrogant of you, saying that without your belief, our society would fall apart. I don't believe that thats the problem, maily more like the parents that you mentioned. the ones who either work too much or don't care, NOT the lack of God. Do you think that those kids, if their parents acted the same, would listen if you taught about God? They won't! And some kids that have parents that care, like me, still wouldn't care and wouldn't listen. lack of God isn't the problem its the lack of good parents.

Fiery Eyes
Can u prove to me that i'm wrong?? God is being taken out of Schools, People are fighting against IN GOD WE TRUST on are money, They fight against a kid wanting to pray at a graduation........Can you not see since taking God out has brought more crime? maybe you can't, but i sure do.

Tptmanno1
I can prove that I'm correct.
If you trace the violence back to the parents, its allways the same, careless parents.
And I would fight against prayer at graduation, or simple not do it. For the same reason.

Fiery Eyes
there is nothing wrong w/you NOT praying, that is your right, your free will. and violence?? what about all the crimes and violence that does not trace back??? i would say that to most school shootings are not traced back thru the parents.

Tptmanno1
I would, and the accesability of guns.
This is not a new thing, but it used to be just fights, its escaleated into shootings due to kids being able to get their hands on guns eaiser.

Fiery Eyes
We were able to get our hands on guns when we were kids, how is it moe accessible now? Kids get angry and their thought is, get a gun. NOW why didn't they have that thought 20 years ago?

Tptmanno1
But what kind of guns?
Automatic weapons are easily acessable now.
ANd maybe you were taught differently, or maybe their following the columbine example? I dunno. But I do its related to guns not god.

Fiery Eyes
How do you know that? NOT just automatic weapons KILL, kids have had access to gunss for years and years and years.........why are they now killing w/them? they didnt' back then.

finti
how was it founded on god?
Actually US or the original 13 colonies was founded on declearing independence from Great Britain

Of course many probably a vast majority of Americans/colonists practiced christianity, but so also did many believe in deistic philosophy. Most of the influential "Founding Fathers" held to deism and freemasonry beliefs rather than to Christianity.

Fire
Kinda hard to live in a country without using the currency. the thing here is choice IMO

About the pledge they have a choice, if the god part bothers them they can refuse not to say it. about the currency, eventho it might bother them, they don't have a choice. They would have choice if there were bills with God on them and without God on them.


and I don't find the pledge ridiculous because of the word God is in it, I just find it a silly custom as a whole, then again I aint much of a patriot except when it comes to Sport (mostly Soccer)

Fiery Eyes
They prayed daily, they were christians.

finti
you knew them all?

Fiery Eyes
Search it out, hun.

finti
I dont have to search out the fact that they werent all chrisitans, not by a long shot. A lot of them couldnt give a rats ass about chrisitanity

Fiery Eyes
yeah figured you would come up w/something like that. That is what America was founded on hun.

finti
please leave the hun stuff cause it sounds a bit too phoney, and second many were indeed chrisitans but not all of them and some of them of the latter category actually were the leaders

Fiery Eyes
I never said ALL Of them were.

finti
didnt say otherwise either

Silver Stardust
America was founded on religious freedom, not Christianity.

I didn't say the pledge in school because I thought it was dumb to have to say it every day, not because I don't believe in God.

And like Tpt said, I go to school because I want to learn, not to have beliefs shoved down my throat. If I wanted to learn about religion, I'd go to church.

silver_tears
Well being educated in Catholic schools my whole life, I find that religion is itslef important in a child's life, the choice to choose is important too, I mean, a child should have a choice to attend a school with religion even if the parents don't agree with it, but at a young age that's a difficult thing to decide erm

So I think that religion in school's is important like anything else, but again biased opinion here seeing as that was how I was brought up, although even if the choice is mine, I would still have gone to Catholic school.

Tptmanno1
I wouldn't have. But thats my preference.

Silver Stardust
Like I said before...had I actually lived IN Chicago, I would have been in a Catholic school...and probably I'd have prefered it, simply because the Chicago public school system is really bad. But I'd've gone to the Catholic school because I wanted to learn academics, not religion.

Fiery Eyes
I wish i had gone to a christian school.

Arachnoidfreak
I've been in a Lutheran school since the 3rd grade, and I think just the opposite. If the child has science, he doesn't need, nor would he accept, religion.

Seperation of church and state, keep the religion out of public schools.

Fiery Eyes
A kid doesn't have to be taught religion at school, but I thk they shld have the right to pray if they want to, no matter what.

Silver Stardust
Not if it means taking time out of the school day, that could be used for teaching, no, I don't think so.

Tptmanno1
Accually i think it would be fun to go to a caotholic school to piss all the nuns off.

Silver Stardust
Heh, Tpt, how come I could totally see you doing that? laughing out loud

Me, though...I was raised Catholic, I went to church, made my communion...but my mom also respected my choice to stop going to church. I've always loved science and have been a very scientifically minded person, so I always questioned the Bible and such...and finally decided that I don't believe that there's a god or anything.

Tptmanno1
I dunno, but its allways seemed to me as a fun thing to do.

Darth Revan
FE> God is not "being taken out" of schools, God was never IN schools. I don't know where you get this idea. Just to be on the safe side, I went and asked my mom (who was born in '49) if she was ever taught about Christianity (other than from a historical standpoint) in public school. She said that no, public schools have always been secular. So your argument doesn't really hold up very well.

Capt_Fantastic
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school my whole life. In my case, this was the worst thing for me. I was always a kid who looked at the whole picture and drew my own conclusions. What this meant for me was seeing all the hypocrisy of the church and it eventually led me to turn my back on it.

Attending Catholic school wasn't free either. My parents paid x amount of dollars for me to go. But they also paid less for me to go than a non-Catholic student. But the funny thing was that it wasn't really any cheaper for me than it was a non-Catholic student. Lets say the school charged me $100 to attend for a month...they charged a non-Catholic student $150 a month. But as a Catholic student, my parents recieved a little blue envelope in the mail every month and they were required to give at least $50 a month to the church for me to recieve the Catholic tuition rate. So, it wasn't really any cheaper...the church just required me to give to both the school AND the church.

After several incidents that led me to my own conclusions about the church I started ripping up the little blue envelope when it came in the mail. I decided that if my parents were going to pay just as much as a non-Catholic, I'd rather all the money went to the school than some to the church itself. When the Bishop comes to your school and tells the entire student body they need to be sacrificing and striving to help their fellow man when in need and then goes out and gets into his brand new mercedes and drives off in to the sunset to one of the three or four homes he owns, you start to think that maybe there's something off.

finti
many, not everybody of them, chrisitans are a greedy bunch

Fiery Eyes
smile Srry Darth, you misunderstood what i was talking about. I wasn't meaning, Religion was Taught in schools. God is being taken out of school by, Not letting kids pray at their own graduations, people are NOW complaing about the pledge of Allegience (they are wanting God taken out of that), schools that have the 10 Commandments on the wall, they want those off the walls cuz it offends someone. Well, what about it offending the christians?? Apparently that doesn't matter anymore. That is how God is being taken out of schools.

Fiery Eyes
Hypocricy, is everywhere. I do see what you are saying about that, but my question to you would, What did God do to you? People have choices in life, even tho they may say they are a christian, you can tell by the way a person acts if they are or not. Going to church, being a Youth Pastor, Bishop, Sunday school teacher, Pasor or Priest does not make you a christian. If your eyes are on man, they are off of God. When you see someone doing hypocrisy, you shld pray for them, I mean they are doing it, not God.

finti
hmm man was created in the image of god so if your eyes are on man they must also be on god

Papaumau
This God thingie...get's all the accolades for all the good things on earth and in the cosmos but when bad or ugly or cruel things are committed it is the fallable humans that are blamed and this God takes a quiet back seat.

If man was made in God's image the punter who made him made an a**e of the job !

Either that or the creatures made in his image were a real mistake, ( and the creator is fallable ), or he was playing a joke on us !

Darth Revan
The thing about the pledge, I really could give a shit since I don't say it anyways, and most of my teachers don't mind. It is a little ridiculous, especially since students are not forced to say it.

About the Ten Commandments though... The Ten Commandments have NEVER been hung on the walls of public schools and never should be. If a Christian family wants their kid to see that every day, they should send them to a Christian school. Personally I will think it a little odd if I walk into math class one day and see the Commandments hanging on the wall. And if I was Muslim or Hindu or something, yes, I would find it offensive. But comparatively, if I was Hindu, I would not be offended if I didn't see a picture of Ganesh in every room. I would also understand if it had been there before but was taken down.

Jedi Priestess
damn Capt..........our Bishop is nothing like that.....drives a 1990 Corsica..........but then he's capaciun (sp) maybe thats why, I think they take a vow of poverty. My parents also paid for Catholic education. I had some questions about my faith, I didnt turn my back on it wholly tho.....I currently just exclude the things I dont believe in.......if that makes me a bad Catholic so be it.

The Omega
When the President says "God bless America" how can you claim that state and government are separated? cool

Darth Revan
Well... According to the consitution they are, but conveniently, the president is often a religious man...

Capt_Fantastic
Let me express something that you may have missed. My problem is not with "god". My problem is with organized religions. Religion wasn't created by god...it was created by the men who seek to use gods name to benefit themselves. Sure, I know Jesus said all that you are the rock I build my church on stuff. But I believe Jesus to be a real person. I don't doubt his very good intentions, but we see that a man who taught peace and acceptance has had his name used to committ some of the most atrocious acts in human history...

Darth Revan
CF> Indeed. If Jesus was watching us right now, he would be rolling in his grave.

Capt_Fantastic
Let me also take a moment to tell everyone that I do believe in a higher power...

I simply don't believe that I need to belong to a church to be a good person.

Religion is, in my opinion, a crutch for those who can't think for themselves.

Silver Stardust
DR - you're right about the pres always being a religious man, every president we've had (but one) was Protestant, and the one we've had that wasn't (Kennedy) was a Catholic. This country will never elect a president who isn't religious.

FE - you keep saying that not allowing prayer and not having the 10 Commandments in public school offends the Christians. Number 1, I have many friends who are religious and Christian, and I never once heard them complain or claim to be offended by it not being allowed and not being there. Number 2, there are other religions than Christianity. What about the people who are of other religions who may be offended by it being there? Better it not be there at all.

finti
we had to say Matthew 6,9-13. every morning at school for 9 years

Fiery Eyes
umm smile Becareful saying NEVER, because i know of a school right now, that has the 10 commandments on the wall, yes it is a public school.

Fiery Eyes
Meaning what? wink

Fiery Eyes
smile Thats my point. You can't tell 1 you can't pray cuz it offends an atheists, then the atheists gets their way. You can't take one away to please the other is my point. We all have a freedom of speech and religion. There's has been many places where kids were told they couldn't pray at their graduation, NO WAY would that stop me, thats ridiculous.

Silver Stardust
If it's a public school, then prayer should not be allowed. We didn't have any sort of prayer at my graduation and no one complained about it. The point of seperation of church and state is that NO religion has a place in school. If the 10 commandments were allowed, to appease the Christians, then they'd also have to include the beliefs of Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, etc (excuse me, I don't know what they're all called). It's better to have none of it. If you want to pray, do it on your own time instead of during school time.

finti
so we were a public school and we had pictures of jesus angles and Abba. If people wanna pray let them but it shouldnt interupt with the education. Pray during lunchour

Capt_Fantastic
Meaning there is apparently no point in explaining

Fiery Eyes
another words you don't know what you meant when you said that?

WhiteEagle
I went to a catholic highschool so there were of course a lot of gatherings and liturgies where we said prayers. It didn't bother me until I became an atheist in the last two years of my education. Although I didn't really participate anymore I knew that I had no right to complain when I had to sit through the gatherings while most people prayed, because it was my choice to be at that school after all. I don't think any religion has a place in any public school CURRICULUM, that isn't to say that people shouldn't be allowed to pray by themselves.

Fiery Eyes
If someone wants to pray at THEIR graduation they shld be allowed to, wich they can now and do. As long as it's student lead, its their choice.

DARTHCOMPLEX
Spoken like a true evangelical thug.

WhiteEagle
Sure, as long as they don't make other people feel obligated to do the same. I chose not to pray at my graduation, but I didn't make any fuss about it so I don't think anyone minded.

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