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OK I put this article in the EP3 section because of the items in red below. So dont go jumping all over me about it. If Ush or Queeq baby feels the need to move it then so be it. Otherwise lets discuss...At least Lucas alludes to the reason Hayden is in ROTJ.


Fans feel the Force
By KEVIN WILLIAMSON -- Calgary Sun
In the most anticipated DVD box set of all time, Greedo fires first.

And as fans and retailers alike can tell you, there are no insignificant details when it comes to George Lucas' beloved Star Wars trilogy, which finally arrives on DVD in a four-disc collection on Sept. 21.

Greedo, as you may recall, was Jabba The Hutt's bug-eyed henchman -- the one who Han Solo (Harrison Ford) fries in that alien bar on Tattooine.

In the original 1977 film, Solo fired first.

By the time Lucas revisited the trilogy for its 1997 theatrical re-release, the director had decided Solo shouldn't be that cold-blooded and gave the scene a digital facelift with Greedo firing first and Solo reacting in self-defense. It was just one change Lucas made to the trilogy -- much to the dismay of purists -- but, as the DVD editions screened by the Sun reveals, it was far from the last.

Most notably, the legendary director has added Canadian Hayden Christensen to the final moments of 1983's Return of the Jedi.

Christensen -- who plays (future Darth Vader) Anakin Skywalker in Episodes 2 and 3 -- turns up as Skywalker's ghostly spectre, alongside Alec Guinness' Obi-Wan Kenobi and Jedi master Yoda.

In the original film, it was Sebastian Shaw who appears as Vader's redeemed alter-ego. (Lucas didn't go so far, thankfully, to erase all traces of Shaw -- the actor's death scene as the man behind Vader's mask remains unscathed.)

In the feature-length audio commentary, Lucas vaguely addresses the issue, explaining Anakin learned -- as did Obi-Wan and Yoda -- to retain his "original identity" -- before he was resurrected as the black-masked master of evil (a sequence that will likely cap off next year's Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith.)

Other additions Lucas has made to the trilogy? Replacing the fleeting image of the Emperor seen in The Empire Strikes Back with Ian McDiarmid (who portrayed the dark overseer in Jedi as well as in the prequels), and adding the planet Naboo -- from The Phantom Menace -- to Jedi's finale.

Naturally, the tinkering has fans appalled all over again. On the website Aint-It-Cool-News, head geek Harry Knowles recently griped about the revisions, complaining Lucas has "polished his diamond into dust" by mucking with it so many times.

Perhaps -- but the director isn't listening.

Lucasfilm spokespeople continue to adhere to the official line -- that the director is merely using the digital tools he didn't have in the '70s to make the trilogy more like what he originally envisioned. For his part, Lucas, in his commentary, praises technological advances, referring to the era of rubber aliens and plastic models as "the old days."

In other words, don't expect the original theatrical films on DVD anytime soon -- purists will have to make do with the 1995 video cassette editions if they want to see the trilogy un-doctored. One thing both Lucas and his detractors are likely to agree on is the trilogy has never looked as good as it does on DVD.

Lucas' technicians painstakingly cleaned up the original negatives frame by frame, removing the usual dirt, scratches and scrapes that come with time, along with any still-visible seams in the special effects.

In addition to Lucas' audio commentary, the movies -- collected in three discs -- include commentaries by sound designer Ben Burtt, effects wizard Dennis Muran and Princess Leia herself, Carrie Fisher.

(Reflecting on the "iron bikini" she wore in Return of the Jedi, Fisher wisecracks she thought it was just Lucas' way of getting her to exercise.)

The fourth disc offers all the extras fans might expect -- more than four hours of footage and featurettes, the centrepiece of which is Empire of Dreams, a 21/2-hour documentary that tracks the saga's origins (Lucas wanted to pay homage to the 1930s adventure serials he had grown up with as a kid) to its iconic status as modern-day mythology. Unfortunately Empire of Dreams also spirals into abject corporate infommercial by the end.

An abbreviated version of the documentary airs on A&E this Sunday.

Of course, that a nearly-30-year-old trio of films can still generate this much attention -- and devotion -- goes to show how much a cultural and financial Force this space opera remains. No wonder the release of the films on DVD (with a pricetag of around $60) is considered a seismic event, expected to take its place among the top-selling DVDs of all time. (It has been No. 1 on Amazon.com's best-seller lists in the U.S., Canada, Germany and the U.K. for months.) So with the trilogy on DVD at last and production on Episode 3 set for release in less than a year, is this really it for the saga set in a galaxy far, far away?

Don't count on it -- the Internet, that bastion of wannabe Jedis and bounty hunters, has been rife with rumours for months that the filmmaker and multimedia mogul intends to again revisit the six movies sometime in the future with an "Ultimate Special This-Is-Really-It Edition" -- would you expect any less from the man who released the original films twice on VHS in almost as many years in the mid-1990s?

As well, reports (or perhaps the wishful thinking of a few fans) have been circulating that Lucas is mulling shooting three sequels to the original trilogy -- Episodes 7, 8 and 9.

(This would be in keeping with his original vision of nine films, the last three of which would feature an elderly Luke Skywalker mentoring an apprentice. Even 20 years ago, Mark Hamill was telling interviewers that Lucas had approached him with this concept.)

Naturally, Lucasfilm representatives have shot down any talk of Star Wars sequels -- and you have to wonder, considering how Lucas refers to the films as a "day-to-day struggle," if he'd ever want to make more.

Then again, as with all things Star Wars, only Lucas -- and Yoda -- know for sure.

EXTRA-ORDINARY BONUSES

For many fans, a DVD set isn't about the movies, but the extras. The Star Wars Trilogy boasts more than four hours of bonus features -- enough to satiate even the most fervent of followers:

* Among the numerous trailers and TV spots on the DVD is the Revenge of the Jedi preview that debuted in 1982. (Lucas later decided revenge was something the noble Jedi Knights would never seek and retitled the final chapter Return of the Jedi.)

* Episode III Behind the Scenes Preview: The Return of Darth Vader reveals behind-the-scenes footage of the lightsabre battle between Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi. No, not the one in A New Hope in which Obi-Wan dies -- but the one that is the cornerstone of next May's Episode III: Revenge of the Sith. Actors Hayden Christensen and Ewan McGregor are shown trading lightsabre blows and choreographing the showdown fans have waited more than 20 years to see. Also included: the creation of Vader's new helmet and the moment in which Christensen dons the famed black garb -- especially tailored for the Canadian actor -- for Episode III's climactic moments.

* Kurt Russell as Han Solo? William Katt (The Greatest American Hero) as Luke Skywalker? Laverne & Shirley's Cindy Williams as Princess Leia? As unlikely as this sounds, it could have happened. Screentests included in the documentary The Characters of Star Wars have the actors reading for the roles that would ultimately go to Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher. Before he was even casting actors, though, Lucas was trying to figure out who his characters were. In early scripts, he had a hero named Luke Starkiller (who was also an old general) and a giant green alien named Han Solo.

* Other features include a documentary devoted to the creation of the lightsabre and love-in with Peter Jackson (Lord of the Rings), James Cameron (Titanic) and Ridley Scott (Alien), who explain how Star Wars shaped their careers.

A long time ago in a Hollywood far away ...

* George Lucas based Chewbacca on his dog Indiana, a malamute that was also the inspiration for Indiana Jones.

* Lucas wrote an original treatment called The Star Wars in 1973.

* The opening crawl for Star Wars says it's Episode IV: A New Hope. But that was not in the original 1977 prints. It was added for the film's theatrical re-release in 1981.

* Every studio in Hollywood turned Lucas down. Fox boss Alan Ladd Jr. finally agreed to make the movie only because he liked Lucas' American Graffiti. During clashes with Fox, Ladd would lose his job. As a result, Lucas took his next project Raiders of the Lost Ark to Paramount.

* When Darth Vader tells Luke that he is his father, actor Mark Hamill didn't know about the plot twist until just before the scene was shot.

* Industrial Light and Magic completed more than 900 F/X shots for Return of the Jedi, nearly three times the number created for the original film.

* Lucas made his fortune because he convinced Fox to agree to give him the merchandising and sequel rights for a nominal fee.

Thanks JP!!

"Anakin learned -- as did Obi-Wan and Yoda -- to retain his "original identity" -- before he was resurrected as the black-masked master of evil (a sequence that will likely cap off next year's Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith.) "

damn lucas has gone bats***

if anakin knew how to retain his identity, then what is darth vader?
why did darth vader not know why ben vanished?
why did darth vader not know that ben and yoda were still helping him from the grave.

WHY?

BAD LUCAS!!! BAD *smack*

oh, and thanks JP

Do you guys think that is real?
I have heard that Hayden is definatly not in ROTJ.

Yes its very real I've seen the ending clip

yeah, hayden's in it

Oh well, Hayden is definatly in ROTJ.

Thanks JP!!

"This will end badly......really badly"

There is not need to put Hayden in ROTJ,
Sabastein does the job fine and the reason
for casting Hayden anyway was because he
appeared like a younger Sabastein.....

Oh, brother GL.....

this is not bad....you guys keep forgetting that Anakin Skywalker ceased to exist from the MOMENT HE TOOK A LAVA BATH....it makes perfect sense that his ghost would appear as Hayden. And as much of the changes I dont agree with...this one doesnt bug me a bit.
And you are all welcome peeps!

but that just kills the darth vader character...its stupid...i hate it.
whether or not vader is anakin, vader has all of anakins memories.
why would he not remember this? GRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anakin must still be around when Yoda figures out how to become one with the Force and become a "ghost". The disappearing trick might be something only good guys can do. Its possible Anakin/ Vader could know one thing and
not the other....

"obiwan can no longer help him"

and more importantly

"this will be a day long remembered...it has seen the end of kenobi..."

kenobi vasished right before vader's eyes, and he had no idea what happened...curiously patting ben's empty robe with his foot.

if he had known, then he would have realized ben was still helping luke.
it makes no sense at all.

BTW, im taking an angry tone because i hate this idea very very much,
so please dont take it as aggression.

Well, it did se the end of Kenobi as a person who could get in their way, ghosts aren't going to do much...

It depends on how that joining the Force thing is handled. They might realize that they can imprint their identity into the Force but don't realize the ghost
feature. This can't really be answered until Ep.3, I guess.

You really need to calm down a bit

Its cool. I don't know how much I like this myself. Just trying to think of how it could fit....

If only Lucas could just make everything fit with the old stuff....

no, not this time...this just sucks...why does GL have to keep 'fixing' his films.
fine, you want to add new effects ...fine....want to add your stupid a$$ musical cartoons...fine...whatever. but now he has to fix his PLOT!?!?!?

whats the excuse this time?
what, he didnt have enough of a budget in the 80s to come up with a descent plot either? WELL WE LIKE IT THE WAY IT IS!!!!

im fine with hayden, his presence does not affect the character of darth vader. even if i didnt like him in it, it wouldnt matter.

but if he takes the direction it seems, then he will be opening more plot holes, and killing our beloved darth vader and turning him into truely just a "machine"

ok...im done...i think

Lucas doesn't know when to quit, I guess.
Maybe he feels the need to explain how Anakin can be a ghost when he had been evil......

He was just putting out a smoldering piece of the robe before it started a fire. Darth Vader, just like a rhinoceros, is very mindful of fires.

If Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda are the only three who learn the "identity" trick, then Anakin has not seen it done before. Obi-Wan is the first to actually "die" and dissappear. So, maybe the foot tap is a "Well holy crap. It did work!" moment.

But then again, this brings up the question: "If Anakin knows and used the trick before becoming Vader, why doesn't HIS body dissappear, thus robbing Vader of any semblence of a physical body?


It works like this though: The three Jedi Amigos learn the trick. They have no chance to impart their wisdom on the other Jedi before they get snuffed out. When Ben dies, he tries it firts. Then pops over, ghost-wise, to Yoda's hut. Yoda is thrilled to know it works and ben is thrilled to know he'll have someone to play cards with in the after life.
Right Anakin is redeemed but right before he snuffs it, he figures he'll give it a shot and see if the trick will work. Boom, low and behold, he's a ghost. And now, he's a snotty young ghost who has to always listen to Ben and Yoda calling him sonny and boy.

Anakin dies an old man! That's what bugs me. No matter how you slice it, Luke saves him. Brings him OUT of Darth Vader mode. He dies looking like Sebastian Shaw.

maybe he needs to explain why he is bastardising his own films.

after which he needs to explain why he is such a hypocrite by raising an uproar over the colorization of 'the three stooges' only weeks ago.

i think he's got alot of explaining to do

I think zutalurs might be onto something there....

Anakin tried the trick before he actually died in ROTJ. Why his body didn't vanish, I don't know.

Vader isn't a machine, he's a man who's been terribly maimed and injured as a
result of his choices in Ep.2 and 3.

but then where is his struggle in eps5 and 6 if the soul of anakin never occupied vader?

"there is still good in him, i've felt it"

"i feel the conflict within you, let go of your hate"

it all means rubbish now, it seems

anakin and vader are one, and luke brought anakin back from the twisted depths of the machine, that was what made it beautiful.

the only way it can work is if anakin's soul is trapped in vader.
without that, its all crap

I think there's a misunderstanding here: Anakin learned the trick like Obi and
Yoda, right? Nothing in the article says he wasn't in his body, it says he learned how to do it BEFORE he got f'd up. That's the explanation for why his ghost is there: a Jedi can choose to become a part of the Force and keep their identity. Lucas said something like this a few years ago, somewhere.

Vader wasn't an empty shell...

this is very confusing...a 2 thread debate....

ok, as i said...vader has anakin's memories.
if not, then he is IN NO WAY anakin, and therefor cannot
recall obiwan, or the fact that he had a wife, or that she was pregnant.
which we know is incorrect.

so how come vader would suddenly not know about the force-dissapearence trick? how could he not know that ben was still guiding luke, or just NOT ended as he declares. that is what makes no sense, unless vader just has a selective memory, which is just plain stupid.

again:

"In the feature-length audio commentary, Lucas vaguely addresses the issue, explaining Anakin learned -- as did Obi-Wan and Yoda -- to retain his "original identity" -- before he was resurrected as the black-masked master of evil"

ANAKIN then retains his OWN identity, making vader someone entirely different....so how is that possible?

"there is still good in him" luke talks about VADER, who he met in ESB. he felt the CONFLICT.

i just dont like this one bit....im going to step back and see if anyone else can make sense of this BS.

"i've got a bad feeling about this"

He learned that it was possible. The article doesn't say he used it before becoming Vader. Refer to the other thread...

2 theads....2 confusing

QUEEQ!!!

help before all our brains split in half!

Sorry about that it just spread like wildfire.....

Anakin knew it was possible but hadn't seen it done. He doesn't try it himself
until he's dying. No disappearance? I don't know.....
Depends on how this is adressed in the movie, I think.

well, disapperarence is not the issue anyway.
proof of quigon retaining his i.d. is in ep2.

the whole point im making is, if vader knows its possible,
why did he not suspect kenobi to still be at work after he vanished.

"if you strike me down now, i will become more powerful........"

if vader had forgotten, that should have jogged his memory.

it makes no sense for him to know of this

Well, if it is indeed so that Anakin consciously learns it in Episode III, then this makes continuity... 'interesting'... as indeed, Vader was not meant to know about it. Unless he suffers recent memory loss at the time of his injuries.

But no point getting too worked up yet- we don't KNOW how this will be addressed in III yet; this is just rumour.

Maybe Obi-Wan didn't know he'd be a visible ghost......
Becoming more powerful meant becoming a part of the Force.

Maybe Vader just said that convince the Emperor he could succeed in turning
Luke.

When Anakin merges with the Force, his ghost and its youthful appearance make more sense: this is how he remembered himself, good, young, etc.

So if someone loses there memory then they are no longer the same person?

doesnt matter my views on that.

vader remembered the duel.
vader knew his wife was pregnant, or why suspect he has a son.
vader knew he was once anakin skywalker

you just changed his quote man... he said original, as in previous, as in he had one Identity as Anakin then another as The black masked Vader

And we already know that when Anakin awakes he is told of what has happened and becomes furious... if he had no memory he would just be like who is Padme and who cares.

now ush, it seems to me that this will be the explanation.
so please answer- do you find this concept of 'selective memory loss'
to be just a really bad idea? would it not make more sense for the "force ghost" revelation to be revealed AFTER anakin's demise?

I think it could work. At the time of Ep.3 this is just wild theory of Yoda's (Mace?), so Anakin might not believe it....

Anakin and Vader are one and the same.....

(shrugs)

Memory loss is a cheap trick but it works. But my bet has always been that any continuity issues like this will simply not be directly addressed.

Until we know more about how the ghost thing is addressed in III, though, we can only wildly speculate.

that is exactly the point i make a2v,
anakin IS vader. vader feels anakin's pain. anakin's pain turns him into vader. thus, his original identity should be non-existant at that point.
he is CHANGED into vader.

lucas implies that the "good man" retains his I.D.
which means that vader is IN NO WAY anakin.

so in other words, there was no struggle to return to the good side.
anakin just kind of "wakes up", which i think is lame

I think it acctually does make sense that he would learn it as a Jedi with Obi Wan and Yoda... it must be a tool of only the light side... if Vader had never known the trick then did he learn it in between ANH and ROTJ? if so from who?... certainly not Palpatine... If this is only a Jedi trick then he must have learned it from Jedi as a Jedi

Ummm......

Anakin buried himself in the persona of Darth Vader and his is what brings him out of it and back to the lightside. That's always been the story.....

his son, sorry.

THANK YOU

it is cheap, very VERY cheap.
and it may work in robocop, or some crappy soap opera,
but this is star wars. its just such a lame cliche plot twist.

I don't think its memory loss, just a lack of knowledge...

I dont know how you can make that assumption... Its very clear there is a struggle, (tell your sister she was right) Vaders struggle between the light and Dark side is really what the OT comes down to.

GL is just saying that he is able to retreive his full self again before any injuries...Shaw had no injuries when he returned also so already we know that it is possible to come back different from your final form

RIGHT, so there IS NO ANAKIN, he buried himself.
his IDENTITY is not pure, not retained, it is "twisted and evil"

anakin gives in to his hate.
he is blinded by hate, and the dark side.
in the last scene of RotJ, he comes to the realization that
his son is about to die at the hands of his master, thus anakin comes
full circle, lets go of his hate, sacrifices himself, and saves his son.

if he knew it when he was anakin, and suddenly doesnt, thats memory loss.

believe me, "lack of knowledge" would be the way i would prefer it.

not this "oops, i forgot" nonesense

Well, Anakin is there. He just can't reconcile what he's become which should be reinforced in the awakening scene when he gets the armor.

But that seems off--topic to me.....

I feel that this explains the presence of Ani's ghost on Endor. And its restored and youthful state....

'I am your father' is the cheapest of all soap opera tricks. In fact, much of Star Wars is built on obvious plotting that is rather the point. There really is too much fretting going on here.

That revelation wasn't obvious then.....

But you're right, we'll see.....


Depends on how this handled in Ep.3

still knocked you out of your seat the first time you heard it though, didnt it?

cheap tricks are ok if they do the job, not just to change a part of an already existing plot which needs no changing.

By lack of knowledge, I meant the ghost part. Unless someone else becomes a ghost and Anakin sees them, this doesn't seem to contradict established facts...

DAMN...it makes no sense anyway.

anakin has already fallen to the dark side BEFORE he hits the lava.

ush is right, it could all be inaccurate info, so im done here.
its only making my blood boil with rage against GL,
so i will just pray that its either

A-exagerated
or
B-total BS

This seems to have come from a misunderstanding of the article. Anakin knew it was theoretically possible to join the Force at death. He never saw it done till he was Vader. Then uses it himself when he's dying. He doesn't use it before he's put into the suit.......

"Anakin learned -- to retain his "original identity" -- before he was resurrected as the black-masked master of evil."

Right. It doesn't say he tried it. Because if he did, and Vader's a shell, then you're right about it being a bad idea. But that would contradict the basis of the OT.

A2V, i make the assumption based on this article, but it is NOT my view on what i think is good.

it IS cleat that there is a struggle.
VADER becomes ANAKIN again.
its not a split personality, which is the direction i think this is taking.
it SHOULD be anakin turns evil, then turns good again.
that is the heart and soul of the story.
thats why i am aggrivated

god i hope so, i really hope so

however, he still has the knowledge...and then he forgets it...

so i MUST ask...what is the point of adding this to the plot?

wait a minute...i get it...he's trying desperately to explain why anakin is a ghost....but why? why at the expense of stupid memory-loss add ons to the plot. why can he not simply be a ghost in the end because he is the chosen one?

Take a deep breath, PVS, everythings alright.

As for the apparent split personality, I don't think of it in a literal sense.
Anakion buried himself in the Vader persona to shield himself from what he'd done and become. It seems his awakening scene sets this up, to me.
He flips out about Padme and his child, so he kind of snaps....

Lucas feels the need to explains things in this trilogy that don't neccessarily
need explaining.

no, i think i figured it cipher...you were right.
he WONT do the trick before he becomes vader..
he will "forget" about it and "re-remember" it in the end of RotJ...which is still just beyond stupid.

*takes deep breath*

its not working

*takes another deep breath*

still not working

*counts to ten*

nope...still pissed

Maybe he didn't forget, he just didn't know it actually worked....
Until he saw, that is...

This certainly adds to the speculation. Good. This forum needed some life again....

but that would never be explained on film. and it would open many holes as i said:

why did he not even SUSPECT that ben was still 'alive'?

surely, after seeing ben VANISH, he should have said
"that old bastard pulled it off...he must still be alive with the force"

End of rotj

luke said "but im gonna save u"

anakin(not vader) "you already have"

So this dont bother me at all !!! after hes said that i would expect him to come back as anakin ghost man.

here's how i THOUGHT it would happen

-anakin falls
-ben and yoda learn of the "technique" from quigon.
-they decide to use this when the twins are of age, to aid them against the sith
-thus vader has no knowledge that kenobi is alive, and the good guys have an 'ace in the hole'

now that's shot to pieces

as would we all, plus he is the 'chosen one' so why explain why he is a ghost? perhaps he doesnt have to do the trick? perhaps thats just part of being the chosen one? do we really need it picked apart and explained to us like it seems will happen?

that does make sense pvs...

mmm

but anakin appeared as a ghost at the end anyway in the original and it wasnt a prob then, i actually enjoyed it (i was about 10) and rounded things off nicely

so does it really matter if is hayden ?? all hes done is change it to hayden to fit in

i think if he explaines force ghosts( by keeping his ID) then its cool

^^ sorry peeps, kinda lost myself in myself, had too much wine

whether it being hayden is not the issue here

do we really need to know HOW he did it......................NO

no thats not what i dont like.
hayden-shaw, doesnt matter to me.
its just that i cant see vader having knowledge of the 'technique'
it sucks. the only way to explain it is memory loss...and that sucks

EDIT>>>ok, just got your edit and i could use a glass of wine myself

great, im debating with a drunk person

yeah it is a bit like 'jees..... what are we gonna do ??... i know anakin didnt want to turn evil really and its all gonna be ok in the end'

this ones for u

oh screw that role playing pretend crap

i need a REAL drink!!!!!!!!

go to the offy then PVS !!

im only drinking cos i been watching Footy...

anyway we should get back to the program........slipped a bit there

Who says Vader forgets about the trick? You can only use it upon death, which is what Vader did... its not like he could have been trying it out for years. It only makes sense that he learn of the trick as a Jedi from a Jedi

I can't wait to buy the dvd set I'm going at midnight to buy them for now may force be with you. thanks JP.

USH!!!!! you're BACK!! smoooooch!
PVS I love ya I really do but you need to get a grip pal....it's a movie...and this isnt THAT big a deal really? I mean will it make you never watch the movies again? Seriously? the whole Greedo/Han thing torques me but I can live with it if I have to. I still do and always WILL love this saga.....personally short of something seriously stupid in EP3 (like Vader being Anakins clone) I'm going to just go with the flow. I have the original OT the way it was show in the theater on VHS so I feel I have the best of both worlds IMHO. Time for rah rahs....back later.

dude, the point i stress is that if this is the case, then *vader knows that kenobi did NOT die on the deathstar* if he knows the trick, he knows kenobi is alive, and helping luke.

"he's just a boy, obiwan can no longer help him"

its settled in that line

vader does NOT know of the technique, or he would not havs said this.
i am willing to accept that vader was playing dumb on the topic of luke, but why would he lie about kenobi?

^^^ Vader may very well know that there is a possibility that ObiWan is still able to communicate from beyond but may not want to share that with Palpatine... Vader is NOT all bad and as we know deep down inside he wishes Luke will succeed... you really cant rely on quotes from the charachters... (Your Father was already a great starpilot, Darth Vader killed your Father ect.) people lie for different reasons

this sucks......i mean come on,is there really a need to put hayden in ROTJ, and i am not bashing hayden,hes a good actor,i just dont see the point in it......and yeah you can say becouse anakin seized to be after the lava bath,but i think if that was the case,then wouldnt anakin appear young when luke takes his mask off,i mean if the body is dead,how can it grow old......

When Vader sees what happens with Obi-Wan, he realizes joining with the Force is possible. In ESB, Vader says Obi can't help Luke, that could be a lie on his part. Later in that movie, he's trying to turn Luke and he tells Luke that he could destroy the Emperor. I doubt Vader later told his master what he'd said to his son....... Vader had ambitions of replacing Palpatine, so he
lied.

Thanks for that JP. It doesn't bother me if Hayden replaces Shaw. I wouldn't fuss if Shaw remained. All that means to me either way is that he has become Anakin again.

USh is back!

The only thing that we are discussing here is that Hayden has replaced Shaw, but think about it, that does not really matter. In the OT GL had to find an actor to play a redeemed Anakin/Vader and that was shaw, but now that we have a full time anakin maybe GL just thought hey let's use the kid in ROTJ. Which still leaves us with the same question as before, how did they become one with the force. It does not matter who plays anakin at that point or why he comes back as the young anakin.

what this all reminds me of is the fact that i don't really care anymore....not the way i used to....i still enjoy all the films (ot and pt), but so much damage has been done that i don't really feel precious about it anymore.....hayden in rotj is 100 times more stupid than greedo shoots first....it's just STOOOOPID....i can't find any other words to explain....stoopidstoopidstoopid.....thing is, it doesn't make me angry, it just makes me laugh at how stoopid it is.....like i said, i just don't care anymore......

i like zutalurs take on the other matter....

by the way PVS and others who are debating the matter, official word has anakin disapear after he dies, and what they burn on endor is an empty suit....obviously they made it up last week, but that's the official version as of now....no, wait a minute.....now.....

Where did you get that from?

Seriously, Anakin could easily have heard that becoming one with the Force was theoretically possible. Then, he uses it in his final moments of life.....

Heck, maybe he wanted to apologize to Obi and Yoda......

yeah, i think zutalurs said it best on the previous page...

the dissapearing anakin thing was either lucas, or someone just a notch down from him....official....

Thi is to explain Anakin's ghost, that's all. It fits, I think. And its not really a big deal in my mind, Anakin becomes one with the Force and retains his identity....

Lucas said something about this (can't remember where) a couple of years ago and that it would be addressed ion Ep.3.....

sorry, i can understand that people don't mind, that's cool....but it seems crazy stoopid laugh out loud craptacular to me still....why would he turn young again?....he was just talking to luke as a kindly old man, he wasn't a different person or a monster then....and why would he have the same haircut he had 30 odd years ago?....it's just one of those things, i can see everyobody's point, but i just don't buy it on a gut level....me i'm buying the dvds for dagohbah in 5.1 surround....

Well, my theory is that a person has some control over how they'll appear.
Anakin wanted to seen as the good person he had been, not the deformed monster he'd become....

As much as I don't like Lucas changing things, it makes sense when considered with the whole story.....

I agree with Cipher

yeah, but sebastian shaw didn't seem like a monster to me in the original ending....i see your point, but there's no point me repeating, i don't have a point to prove plotwise, it just makes me laugh....i'm a lot happier since i started laughing at these things instead of being angry....peace...seagrave out....

(and that's true about anakin dissapearing, really....it wasn't on supershadow.....maybe they changed their mind's again since, but it was official word)

Well, Ani could have disappeared off-camera, but I think Lucas would put that in the film..... This isn't really a big deal, its just senile Lucas explaining what young genius wrote decades ago...

yeah, they just made it up last week, agreed....basically he was using the suit as an excuse, and saying it was empty when they burnt it...for some reason i always kinda thought maybe obi wan and yoda helped him on over to the other side....not like i believed it 100%, just a vague feeling i had when i used to watch it as a kid...

First of all, misquote- he does not say 'starpilot'. You are getting confused with Obi-Wan talking to Luke in ANH. If you are nitpicking, then you should at least pay attention to detail.

Secondly, as GL himself says, the whole force disappearing thing is about the line 'Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.' The whole point of the whole scenario... is that Vader does not know anything about this.

And hi again guys!

(waves)

all things considered...if Anakin is going to come back as himself for the ghost scene..why would he come back all scared and mutilated? I mean why not come back as the "whole" being?

he will because it has been explained that he will return as the jedi he once was.

the issue is being avoided, or quickly looked over.

as ush pointed out before:

"if you strike me down now, i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"

ben tells this to vader with the notion that vader has no idea what he's talking about. and as far as someone saying "vader was hiding ben's presence from the emporer", let us not mix pure speculation into this, as this debate is quite confusing enough.


the bottom line is that vader does NOT know what happened when ben disappeared, he was CLUELESS. later in the films he refers to obiwan as having met his "end" and that "obiwan can no longer help (luke)"
vader has no knowledge of the technique of preserving one's identity after death....but anakin seemingly WILL....

...the only logical, yet super-cheesey answer to this was that vader had what i will call "selective memory loss"...but if this is the case, then how would kenobi know of vador's ignorance? and if he DID know, why take the risk of gloating and risking REMINDING vader of such a technique. this technique was the only way they could help luke in his battle against the emporer.

why would ben be so arrogant as to temp fate in such a manner, unless he KNEW that vader would never catch on?

Perhaps it's just a case of all good Jedi go to heaven!

PVS...if you tell me Im overlooking something one more time Imma have to cut you down with this big red saber in my sig....I dont overlook anything I simply dont consider this a big deal pal.

oops...double post

Has anyone told you this morning that you are full of it? hysterical

JP, i wasnt referring to you in particular. and it IS a big deal....so THERE

dont make me angry JP...you wouldn't like me when im angry

plot holes irritate me...but newly added plot holes to a 20 year old trilogy...that just gets me really steamed

NO it really ISNT! and as for making you angry...PPFFTTT!! Remember I alone can turn you into MOST unpleasant objects

look JP, the new ep4 jabba scene sucks
the 'greedo shot first' scene sucks
the new jabba's band pixar cartoon musical REALLY sucks
and some (not me) think that hayden at the end of rotj sucks.

but all of these additions have one thing in common:
they do not affect the overall plot...

that is why i make a big deal of this issue. if it is true, it potentially sends a (i'll call it a "plot ripple" throughout the ENTIRE OT.

big deal in my book

...and i just take your picking on me as a show of affection

Saying that Vader does NOT know is purely speculation, and we don't want any of that
I think 90% of the discussions in here are speculation what people think will happen and what the reasons behind it may be.

the proof is in the script A2V.
its not speculation, its fact.

I thought it was up for debate what Vaders actions ment at the end of the deul when he taps on top of Bens clothes... but I no read good so Ive never read the book versions or the script where they say that Vader didnt know what happened to Ben.


Hey PVS have you seen the pics of Anakin over top of Padme
http://img2.exs.cx/img2/5264/PROOF.jpg
Im guessing you have whats your Opinion on that... is it really him choking her or maybe him just reaching out to her

a debate for another thread, but i thinks its a force choke...

Then again, Qui-Gon's missing.

Still odd though, OB1 and Yoda are old and wrinkly (their whole self?) and Anakin is young as a ghost while he must have aged even when he didnt get burned. Then we go, he returns as a ghost when he was good. He was good when he died... so?

Ah well, I just read an article with a summary of ROTS. they pointed out some of the plotholes because of lining the stories up. McCallum responded by saying that that's something that was unavoidable since ANH was planned as a one-off movie, not as a six-part film. So he advises not to look too closely at the details of the story. Guess we'll just have to swallow.

Funny thing I guess...I have never EVER seen the special edition versions of the OT I have only seen the original versions....maybe thats why Im not so jaded

Ooooh, you're in for some surprises.

I am afraid they wont be pleasant ones either

oh you poor poor thing...the horrors that await you....

maybe I can close my eyes through those parts

Some are. Especially if they fix that rancor scene.

just have a mop and bucket ready for when you see jabba's "new and improved" band

Becoming one with the Force is theorized in Ep.3

Obi-Wan actually uses it in Ep.4

Vader/Anakin has not seen it done and is surprised by the vanishing old man.

When he says they've seen the end of Kenobi, he's covering up his surprise.

When Vader tells the Emperor that Obi-Wan can't help Luke, either he doesn't think Obi can or he wants Luke trained so he can turn Luke against the Emperor.

I don't see this being a big problem, but that's just me.....

Or it could just be that since Ben is the FIRST to do it, he has no clue what abilities Kenobi will have.

Obi-Wan has spent 18 years on Tatooine doing nothing. You don't think he's had a chance to meditate on the issue a little more? He KNOWS he'l be more powerful. Whereas Anakin/Vader believes nothing is more powerful than the dark side. Therefore A/V doesn't believe him. So when he says that about the end of Kenobi, he believes it. Why is it so hard to accept that Vader is WRONG and not lying and not suffering from memory loss. It's all theory until Ben puts it into practice.
Notice Kenobi doesn't materialize until ESB? It took him that long to figure out how to do that. Otherwise I'm sure he would have appeared in Vader's cockpit and saved all those other pilots.

as i said "vader lies to palps about obiwan" is pure speculation.
it cant be argued as if it will roll out that way.

besides, at the time of that conversation luke has already been trained.
there would be no reason for vader to hide this info.
the plan is to turn skywalker regardless.

Good point. Lying was just a theory, anyway.

But he's "trained" by Yoda, who the Emperor and Vader believe is dead.

I think this could be a good way of "explaining" the ghost thing. I thing it's a less than stellar explaination, and that's probably why people are upset by it. It could have been something cool, instead it's going to be something mediocre.

this just in:

in a tragic turn of events, the "force ghost debate" has crashed, slamming into the side of a mountain. no survivors have been found, and are assumed dead.
a prayer vigil will be held by family, friends, and other mourners. more on this story as it developes...

What does that mean?

kenobi was coaching luke right after he died.
there was no reason for him to appear...and WHERE would he appear?
either outside the ship, or in front of luke, between his legs, which would have
been....disturbing to say the least.

Might've taken a while for him to get his physical act together.......

Wow. He appeared as a voice first and then later as a visual manifestation of himself?
I think if he could have appeared as a "ghost" he would have on the Falcon when Luke was crying into his blue milk.

And what kind of coaching was he giving him?
"Use the Force, Luke"?
Well, no sh*t Ben! Glad to see becoming a Force Spirit was so helpful.

as soon as ben interjects,
"the force is strong with this one"

coincidence? i think not
but as i stated in a very sarcastic tone, this debate is off in a dead zone

Cool!

Why? Simply because you say so? And why do you say so? Because now you have no argument to stand on?
And here I thought I could actually join in a thread and have a conversation, but PVS HAS to dominate and have the last word.
Is there a thread you don't have the majority of the posts in?

are you finished?

just tell me when you are, and i will explain

Don't waste your fingers typing me an explaination. I'm not gonna read it. I'm done feeding your ego.

It wasn't really, we're talking about this issue. This new info can fit into the PT,
it just adds a new wrinkle, that's all. Maybe not a neccessary wrinkle.....

Don't try to put too much logic into these films, Lucas doesn't....

FACT-(so we are led to believe with this article)
anakin learns of the technique used by ben and yoda in the OT

FACT- vader had no idea what happened when kenobi disappeared

you are using pure speculation to argue against GL's script, not prove me wrong. i stand by the script, and not my ego.

What script is that? ROTS or ANH?

My post stating how he could know of the theory of being a ghost but know that
a person could completely vanish fits in the script.
And if Lucas does do this, then it is a part of his script.
Anything Lucas does is Star Wars, even if we don't like it.....

I think if you take the emotional attachment away and look at how Lucas actually has made things "work" it's quite impressive.
From the very first film, he's been re-writting his own movie's history. He re-crafts the story to fit what he currently wants it to be, and does a pretty good job of explaining things away.
The average movie watcher probably doesn't have a clue about these "holes" the rest of us die-hards see.
I applaud Lucas's ability to back-pedal. I may not like it, but lucky me to have 3 versions of each of these films to pick from.

ANH queeq...and ESB with the vader/palps dialogue

And remember, the point of these was to flesh out the whole story...

Which script has Vader saying this? A three second shot of his black boot tapping Ben's robe hardly proves your point. Or did you read the expresion on his face when he struck Ben down? Guess what genius. THAT'S A MASK.

If they get what's going on at all.... It is all very very subtle and very hinted at. One needs to know the OT pretty well to understand these hints and subtleties to be underlying plotlines.

you know what zutalurs, i would much rather you ignore me come to think of it. i just cant take you seriously after the attacks you make. so please be true to your words, and just pretend i dont exist. it would be much appreciated