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My W.o.W. today got me to thinking. This is what it was:




Does the history influence us? Do we pay attention to the mistakes of the past?

Sometimes, but not often enough. If people learned from history then we never would have had Bush as president, people would have learned from the poor job his father did and voted for a better candidate.

Very nice point.

Then why are we forced to look to the past and see what events happened if we pay no heed to it?

Because we should pay attention to it. And we are taught the past so some of us may be smart enough to learn from it.

a remark about your quote:

you make it sound history is a science, this is not so black and white as you make it seem.

First of, when we start at Leopold Von Ranke (19th century), the creator of positivism, you can't claim it's a science since he only wanted written (administrative) sources and in his conclusions he always stayed on the facts, not on any notes or comments on it.

It's with Lamprecht, Robinson and Berr it changed till we get to Annals.
There they say that we should make history a "true science" so they compare events: the french revolution, the american revolution, the russian revolution, the brabant revolution, ...
and they write a synthesis (I'm not sure that's the correct word) about their findings and give their theory about it.

But those two, is that enough to count it as a science? I asked TO this one actually a time ago and she gave a website to me where it says that it's not really a science

People study history to try and not make the same mistakes, so that hopefully history won't repeat itself. So of course the past affects us.

The past affects us regardless of whether we learn from it or not. Also history is not in predicting events, but trends, and often times is tough to find these trends until events are past. They can hypothesize, but its some what outside of thier realm of expertise.

America should still have known better than to elect Bush II.

Technically they didn't.

only if they all study it or learn from the mistakes, which they don't

all the past mistakes are affecting on us.
and no one can change it.
it is just sad, how ignorant some people are.


edit. yes i meant affect. thanks for pointing my mistake out.

I'm guessing you mean "affect" & not "effect"

without a paste there wouldnt b a presant and with a presant there wouldnt b a futur..........Cant rememver were i herd that from

And to think i was worried about the grammatical difference between Affect and Effect.

Oh god, my eyes! That was horrid.

I wasnt aiming the correction at you clove - it was at the forum question in general - i {think} Sam may have meant "Does the past affect us?" in the first place.

I enjoyed History and Ancient stories. But for me the past is gone and what matters is the present. Eventually the present will become past and the upcoming future will also moved into the past. For me the stories of our elder ancestors are very important, not only for educational purposes, but also they are important in shaping our experiences.

Even so, if we are studying the past, why are we repeating so many mistakes?

Because no matter what.......humans are not perfect. We made mistakes in the past. We make mistakes today. And we will make mistakes in the future. At least that's how I see it SG.

>> Does the history influence us?

yes

>>Do we pay attention to the mistakes of the past?

sometimes

I think we could learn more from the past, if we had political leaders that had broad perspective, and were learned in the ways of the ancient. It's a typical mistake that alot of new thing happening is dealt with in a bad way, because it is not recognized in it's essence as something old - something we could solve better with applied wisdom.

That is what I mean. If we applied the knowledge from past mistakes, we would not have the issues of the present.



Of course we are flawed. We will make mistakes, but that is why we document said mistakes, to avoid making them in the future. But, this is apparently not the view of some. (Nobody in particular.)

Let's get literal here:

The past can only hurt us or effect, ( did I spell it right ? ), us if there is forward time-travel for the people and forces that were working in days gone by.

As I don't think that there is such a thing as forward time-travel then I am happy that the past is going to stay just where it is and it is not going to jump on my shoulders and catch me out.

Does history influence us?

It should! I mean, we don't go to history class for nothing. They don't teach us history because they just feel like being mean and stuff. They teach it to us to understand how the country we just happen to live it was founded, how it works, what mistakes it has made, so that we may not make the same mistakes.

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
-george santayana

"We can learn from history how past generations thought and acted, how they responded to the demands of their time and how they solved their problems. We can learn by analogy, not by example, for our circumstances will always be different than theirs were. The main thing history can teach us is that human actions have consequences and that certain choices, once made, cannot be undone. They foreclose the possibility of making other choices and thus they determine future events."
- gernda lerner

Keep in mind that some ppl manipulate history for their own benefit. So not all documented history provides points for our mistakes. Rather they can be used to distort things in the past and make us think what present should be like.

I think most societies are under the impression that history is something that just keeps moving steadily forward, removing us from the past, which was uncivilized, towards a future that just keeps becoming more and more perfect, till in the end we'll have reached perfection. why then bother too much about the past when we're leaving it so rapidly behind?

Line:hold that thought. I don't belive in a perfect future - there will always be suffering - we are not leaving the past behind, we build our present on the past.

I didn't mean to say that that's what everyone believes (me included.)
still, I do believe that it's a widespread belief, especially in the western part of the world, that time is linear and that we'll become more enlightened as time goes by. this can create a contempt for the 'less evolved'/'uncivilized' past as well as for the countries less 'developed' than ours.

Of course the past affects us as far as history is concerned. What happened in the past defines the world today - our borders, our traditions, our way of life. Also our opinions of other nationalities tend to be based not only on our own experiences but the actions of those countries in the past.

We can learn from history how past generations thought and acted, how they responded to the demands of their time and how they solved their problems. We can learn by analogy, not by example, for our circumstances will always be different than theirs were. The main thing history can teach us is that human actions have consequences and that certain choices, once made, cannot be undone. They foreclose the possibility of making other choices and thus they determine future events.

that is very very true. different history teachers and writers of history books in different regions, often get the causes of the civil war way different. i grew up mostly in alabama, and the reason the civil war started was because of economic problems with trade between the north in ths south. i just moved to south dakota, and suddenly the war started because of slavery. and now no one is probably quoite sure because they all get it mixed up.

or it's both as said in the simpsons

economy of slavery...thats it

This is becoming a really good discussion. clapping

We are our history

Its the reason why we do everything we do.

Its the reason why Jesus was crucified.

His teachings are the good thats in the world and the freedom and life we take for granted.

Its the reason why we get up everyday to make money to fuel our greed and buy crap we dont need.

Thats the reason why we are unhappy and atheist

Thus the reason why we have the nuclear bomb.

Its the reason why we will eventually destroy everything left thats good in this world

Your soul is the reason to search the past and find the answers we are all looking for.

Is there a small chance you might be interested in explaining what this means ? History is the reason jesus was crucified?

I'm reading it, but I'm not getting it.

neither does HP, guess thats why the potential is still hidden.
Hidden Potential what is this we thing, you dont speak for me.
I aint unhappy, I aint looking for any answers either. I buy the things I feel the need for, I really couldnt care less about whether others think it is unessesarry items. It is my choise to make, so I make them.

We are history?

No, we are the present.

I'm sorry to break this to you Samurai Guy, but you're already history. The present is a fleeting moment that sustains the illusion of permanence. I'm history too now.

hasta la vista ... baby

haha
yes, my writing is a little jacked up i must agree

Jesus and Christianity are a huge part of world history, and in turn has had a huge effect on who we are today.

more of an effect that alot of people are willing to accept it seems.

we are our history, because before you and I, there was every single other person and event that caused the world to be exactly what it is today.

I wonder where you and I would be had Jesus never existed.
A large part of the goodness and mercy we have today came from Jesus.

I suggest you study history or at least read books by Spengler and Toynbee who did there best to show that the "western world" is NOT the center of everything: christianity is/was important for the simple reason WE had it and WE think we're the center of everything

Well isn't that just typical of christianity, to place the earth as the center of the universe and man as the pinnacle of Gods creations..

With or without a God, we are the pinnacle of creation.

yes, it is!

personal history does, you hit your head on something... history reminds you not to do it again... eventually
political history doesn't as it does not effect the top of the list in such a way that it literally hurts them, so basically they dont care

Smiling Sadly: Thanks for your smile

HiddenPotential: I don't agree, even though we have an ego the size of a planet doesn't mean we are the pinnacle of creation. I think that this conviction will ultimately pull us farther away from our true place in nature.

too true... you would expect that people know by now never to attack russia in the winter

napoleon 1812 (?)

That's why I support Marcus Aurelius opinion that only philosophers should be kings.. but there are practically no monarchies left - oh well, nice thought anyhow.

not only him, remember WW II ... Again

but he was the first.
and they should have known it later
the staliningrad battle would look different

as well as the history before christianity played a huge role in the shaping of this new religion. thus christianity's a mixture of older religions and thus we're not just enfluenced by christianity, but also of what went before christianity.

Really it should go like this:
Jesus made the huge impact on religion, and
religion has had a huge impact and History, and
that history is the society we live in today.

Christianity has been a beneficent to the human race.
The apostles of Christ succeeded in overthrowing the pagan empire.
Also brought an end to ancient slavery, and gladiator fighting.
Withought the coming of Jesus, the world would be quite a diffrent place today.

yeah, a GOOD place

learn your history, religion brought us nothing but war

yeah?, say that to those who refused to submit to the christian faith

for your info Gladiator fighting was on and off as legal/illegal throughout the entire reign of the Roman empire.
As for slavery I wouldnt credit christianity for ending it, a huge part of those countries that allowed slavery were so called christian countries.
And slavery still exist, at least in the sex industry.

Not to mention scattered sweat shops across Asia.

Those who don't learn from history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them