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This is scraping the bottom here, but I was wondering. If midiclorians are like mitochondria and they exist in every cell of a living organism , then when Anakin loses his limbs/lower abnomen, does it mean that he will have a smaller midochlorian count?

It's a good question, but I don't think it's true, I mean, Luke lost his hand and was a better Jedi in ROTJ.

I think that Vader let him win.

i think vader will be less powerful with the force as a result of his lava bath, but still remain the most powerful jedi ever.

quigon stated that midichlorians reside in the cells of ALL LIVING THINGS.

so its safe to say that they are in all of anakins cells as well...so...he loses flesh, he loses cells, thus he loses midichlorians.

yeah.....i bet he lost some of his manhood as well

I think Anakin would have less power in the Force, but he's still quite strong.
Luke didn't lose nearly as many......

Ani can't fall in the lava or there'd be nothing left of him.

don't solve this with "human science" midichlorians resamble mitochondrians, but doesn't mean they are that.
this is star wars, not earth

understood yersoot, but its simple math.
every living cell in anakins body has midiclorians.
the more midichlorians you have, the more powerful you are with the force.

so, a subtraction of cells equals a subtraction of power.

one thing this has me thinking is:
is post-duel vader still more powerful than yoda?
they seemed to be close according to that screen chart in ep1.
and that when anakin was...whole

I read an midicolrine count somewhere once. I think it was the official Star Wars site and it had Anakin and Vader down seperately.
As Anakin he was miles infront, next one down was Yoda and then Palpy.
But as Vader he was about half that of Anakin...... Can't remember where Luke was in the list...
I will have to find it and post the link

i'll do it for you, www.supershadow.com

AAAAAA!!!! NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Well, since this is Star Wars, we are allowed to cheat some of the rules that exist in our universe. I do not believe Anakin loses midichlorians after the lava bath. All the suit does is allow him to breath and it makes him much stonger physically. (Not to mention intimidating.) That and I assume that after he becomes bionic, there are still several hundred Jedi that will meet Vader's lightsabre; afterall, it's their fault he became that way.

I think that it does reduce power, because I think I remember reading in a book somewhere that luke was ashamed of losing his hand (later in his jedi life) because he wasen't allowed to reach his full power or something along those lines

I can't bear to listen to the M-word anymore.... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!

hehe.

Books have nothing to do with George Lucas and his ridiculous world he created. Although it is logical Anakin's bionic body would lower his power, it most likely did not happen. Think about all of the plot holes we've seen, Lucas>Logic. (at least in his opinion)

Surely its not about how many midichlorians Ani has but more about how he uses and abuses the one around him. As we know, the force surrounds us, binds us...

I think if he can still harness the force around him then he will remain powerful.

That's genius. Afterall, Yoda tells Luke that the force exists in the rock and his ship. What do you know....
The force exists even in machinery...

Yeah, so it kinda points towards Ani/Vader having control over his prosthetic limbs and organs etc... which would give him back probably most of his original powers.

It would also explain how the Jedi/Sith can use 'Force Pushes' and 'Force lightning' I guess, because I suppose they are manipulating the world around them for their own purposes.

Thats what I always thought the force meant, as if it were some kind of telekenisis alternative. Mind controlling matter...

Not IN the rock or IN the ship. Get your DVD's and listen to it. It's clearly describe as an energy field created by all LIVING things in the universe. And here are the lines, just as a reminder:

"Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you... me... the tree... the rock... everywhere! Yes, even between the land and the ship!"


AROUND... not IN!!!!

I meant the force that exists between things not in them. Sorry, I wasn't very clear.

I really like that line from Yoda, about us being luminous beings. Thanks for reminding me of it.

What the heck makes anyone think that losing midi-chlorians reducs your force power? I don't believe people are so literal about this. Midi-chlorians don't MAKE youu powerful. Inject them into someone and they don't turn him into a force God. They are an indication of someone's power. Reagrdless of whether Anakin loses his count after his accident or not- and I don't think he will, I think they would just reside in his remaining organic parts- this would make not the slightest difference to his power with the Force at all.

Really... don't read too much into midi-chlorians.

else the bigger the creature the more cells and thus the more force capable

Absolutely. This count=power nonsense is ridiculous.

We haven't heard about mi.... miiih...midiiiih..... ooh I can't even say it anymore... We haven't heard about them in AOTC and let's hope we don't hear about them in ROTS. So be done with those. (Hopefully GL does some more changes to his films for the next DVD box in a few years and change that scene, which looks crappy anyway on the videoshoot test)

Ush, Queeq, im sure you would agree that the whole idea if midichlorians is ridiculous, as do i.

but it is part of the story.

in the end it doesnt matter.
by the time vader is a machine, the jedi will be "all but extinct"
and ben and yoda will be "old and weak".
since vader really has no competition at that point (besides his son),
it ceases to be an issue.

however, for argument's sake, i will say this:

Yoda's lines in ep5 explain the "energy field", and leaves it at that (which i was just fine with). but now with the addition of midichlorians, it changes the whole thing. midichlorians exist in the cells of all living things. so although the force may not exist in the rock, it does exist in the land... be it plants, creatures, whatever. the way i see it, anakins arm lying on the ground in ep2 had midichlorians, which were once part of him. now they are not. he had less cells in his body at this point, thus less midichlorians. i have to conclude that he is not as powerful as he was when he wasn't *ahem* disarmed.

it doesnt make him weak, just knocks him down from say 100% to 95%
(not that im trying to present figures, just explaining my way of thinking)

Maybe they should have said that they exist within every atom of every thing. Then they can be in the air and the rock and the ship and blah blah blah...

probably would never remove the midichlorians from tpm.. they were one of the main factors to the discovery of anakin.

The midi count was done based on a drop of blood. It says more about the intensity of those midi-buggers than of the absolute quantity.

midi's per cell

That's I what I said.

*rolls up sleeves*
no , you said intensity not quantity.
i say quantity not intensity.

unless thats what you meant

No, quantity per cell.... The issue was about Anakin having less midi's because he was chopped to bits. The midi count showed the intensity of midi's, i.e. the quantity per cell, which is NOT the absolute quantity.

DONT EXPLAIN THIS DEBATE TO ME!!!

joking

understood, but the fact stands that he loses cells when he loses flesh.
so whether there are 3 or 3000 midi's in a single cell, the math works out the same.

quantities per cell AND total cell count would be an absolute quantity i think (god is this getting sooooooo techno-geeky )

so when anakin loses a limb, he loses a certain amout of cells and thus a proportionate amount of midis.

Well, regardless, Yoda is about half the size of Anakin and he's very powerful. Without any legs, Anakin is roughly the same size, so if it's based on how much flesh you have he is still quite powerful.

If the force is around all living things how come Luke was able to manipulate the torpedos in the dead of space in ANH?

So by this logic the more flesh you have the more powerfull you are with the force.

hence jabba the gut is the most powerfull jedi ever. Horsecrap.

^^^rude

jabba has a low midi per cell count, thus his lack of force power

Yeah it makes more sense that the more midichlorians per cell a force-user has the stronger he/she/it is. And a good way to measure.

First of all he DIDN'T! Geez. The Force gave him instincts that told him the right time to fire, better than the computer could.

Secondly, just because it flows through all living things, that does not mean it's power is limited to living things; it clearly gives you telekinesis.

PVS, you're still wrong, and I have no problem with the midi-chlorians. Read what I said again; they INDICATE your power, they do not create it. Hence Anakin loses no power at any point, and most likely his count would be identical anyway. You are basically gibbering. Horsecrap indeed. And your response to queeq's reply was nonsensical; he was caliming that only quantity per cell was important; the absolute number thoughout the body, therefore, would be irrelevant, and so Vader losing flesh would be irrelevant also; the count per cell would be identical.

"although the force may not exist in the rock, it does exist in the land... be it plants, creatures..."

More gibberish. You are making stuff up now to suit your own theory- very bad. At NO POINT is it said that midichlorians either are the Force, or create it. They are a symbiotic link for living things TO the Force, and so where it exists has nothing to do with them whatsoever. Yoda and Obi-Wan's lines on the OT remain unaltered by anything QGJ said in TPM.

Ani: What are midichlorians?
QGJ: Midichlorians are a microscopic lifeform that resides in all living cells.
Ani: They live inside me?
QGJ: Inside your cells yes...and we are simbionts with them
Ani: Simbionts?
QGJ: Lifeforms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midichlorians life could not exist and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you.

1-lifeform that resides in all living cells.
2-Without the midichlorians life could not exist
3-(yoda) life creates it (the force) makes it grow

again, my quote:
"although the force may not exist in the rock, it does exist in the land... be it plants, creatures..."

i do not state that non jedi USE the force,
only that the force is WITHIN those lifeforms.
the force and the midichloreons are symbiotic.

by the way, wtf did i do to deserve such a reaming?

This is a silly topic to argue about. I told you I was scraping the bottom.

You know what though? I am wrong about Anakin/Vader force power. Sorry, PVS

George Lucas specifies in the ESB commentary that Vader has lost a lot of his power in the Force due to becoming half-machine. There you go. He also says, interestingly, that were it not for this, Anakin could have unseated the Emperor solo. Oooh... but it's not due to losing midichlorians, it is due to him losing his soul.

But you are still wrong about the midichlorians being in the ground and all that, and your quotes don;t cahnge a darn thing. They are symbiotic with living things, is all that says, and they still are not the Force in of themselves, so where the Force is is still not down to them! The reaming is for mis-reading the very lines you are quoting. Not did I say at any point that you said that non-Jedi use the Force. You said the midi-chlorians situation changes where the Force is; it does not, it only changes how living things are aware of its existence.

well that's not exactly true...

Nicos Marr was a Jedi being trained by Luke Skywalker after the whole trilogy and whatnot in EU...his body was destroyed but they managed to transfer his mind into an droid's body...and in the end he could still control the Force, like 5 minutes before he died.

EDIT: it wasnt really his REAL brain either...i guess you can call it his "soul"

Never mind what the EU says.

oh. ok then, forget what i said. you become weaker in the Force as you lose your body.

If there are still living cells in an organism, the midichlorians still reside in those cells and thus Vader can still force choke people from long distances and beat ass.
VADER!

anakin had a higher count than yoda in TPM and he was just a small kid. When he grew, he didnt gain more, or else when he reaches 6' or watever for vader he would be invincible. and he wasnt a forceuser when he was a kid, so midichlorians dont just make you into a jedi instantly.

id say vader lost some of his power during the rehabilitation process, if palpatine uses the darkside to help heal him. the duel would have cost anakin everything and all that is left is dark side. remeber yoda said that the darkside is not stronger than the light? so when anakin turns to the darkside, he loses some of his power.

I don't think Anakin ever lost any power of the force, he continuously grew in the power of it until he died. He lost the power to think for himself.

vader has killed off many jedi knights during the purge but if he continually grew, then by ESB, he should have easily killed off luke, but luke was just a newbie forceuser and managed to smack vader in the shoulder. also, in ROTJ, vader should have been stronger again, but when luke fights, he easily beats vader.

Well you have to consider the fact that the lightside of the force only resided in Yoda and Luke at the time of ESB. The very will of the force is for the Sith to be destroyed and that's why Luke eventually becomes more powerful than Anakin.
That and Vader didn't want to kill Anakin, he was toying with him, trying to turn him to the darkside so they could destroy Palpatine. He does ask him to join him in doing so.

I would have to agree with PVS about Vader being less powerful with the Force as a result of his lava bath, but still remaining the most powerful Jedi ever and his midichlorian logic/explanation !!!

The Force is in all living things and around all non living things, without the Force, there is no life !!! Chi is a good example of what the Force is like in real life ! Chi is inside all of us and it's all around us, yet few of us feel it and learn how to manipulate it !!! Also Chi has positive and negative sides to it and your emotions affect it !

Mist, I would have to disagree about the part where you say that Vader is weaker because he went to the Dark Side ! Yoda may say to Luke that the Dark Side isn't stronger than the Light, however Lucas says in the audio commentary of AOTC that the Dark Side is indeed more powerful !

Darth Nefarus, how does Luke eventually become more powerful than Vader ? Is it his destiny to destroy the Sith or was he getting fried by Palpatine and pleading for his father to help him ? It is the will of the Force for the Sith to be destroyed, but it is not Luke's destiny to destroy them, it is the Chosen One's aka Anakin !!! Luke did however help Anakin see the Light !!!

NOTE: Sorry about all the exclamation marks, no offence meant to anyone, it's simply my style of writing and yes PVS, I talk the way I write !!! lol

I argue the will of the force is with Luke, by the way Luke abandon's his hatred, and believes the force will save him.
I always assumed Luke to be more powerful by how quickly he became aware of his abilities.

Creatures that can resist the force and the will of the force...Watto's species etc...

Does that mean they have some kind of anti midichlorian thing going on or are they immune to its effect? Has that ever been explained anywhere? Just how do they block the force, and subliminaly at that, they don't even have to try!?

ooh that is a great point!

Um, I'm sorry, but the conceding point I made above is that George Lucas directly says that Anakin DOES lose a load of his power in the force when he gets his injuries.

Ush, life needs the force to exist, the force needs life to exist.

Jedi/Sith have knowledge of the force, meaning they can manipulate this energy, and bend it to their will. but i think the force still exhists in all living things.

"life creates it (the force) makes it grow"
-not just force users, LIFE. all life gives energy to the field. from an all powerful jedi to a blade of grass. as DeepHatred pointed out, its similar to the eastern philosophy of "chi", life force in all things living. in othere words: a lifeform does not need knowledge of the force or even a conscience to contribute to it, and feed the "energy field".

"Without the midichlorians life could not exist"
look, from the quotes, we know for a fact:
1-life cannot exist without the midis.
2-without life, there is no force.

is it inconceivable that the force dwells in all living things, since those living things are what create it?

also, quigon states that without the midis they would have no knowledge of the force. but how should that be taken?
does that mean that the only purpose they serve is to give jedi their knowlege of the force?
i think he simply means that without a high count of midi's you are just an average lifeform and not able to USE the force, however you are still a part of it.

I wasn't really claiming that. I was just wondering if Force sensitivity was maybe based on midi-quantitiy per cell instead of absolute quantity. If it was it wouldn't matter how many limbs Anakin would lose...
Midi's suck to debate about and I sure hope we don't hear about them in ROTS....

That's simply a re-affirmation of symbiosis; if the midi's were not there, people would not be aware the Force existed, is all.

And you are pointing out complete irrelevancies to anything I said. I made the one factual point- that the midichlorians, which are all about how we are aware of the Force and nothing else, make absolutely no difference at all to what Obi-Wan and Yoda say in the OT about the Force itself. You made out that it needed to be re-examined because of the midis. It does not.

I agree with Ush on this one.

agreed.
the only purpose to add midis to the plot was to illustrate his power.
what sucks though, is that we would have already grasped this by knowing
he was conceived by the force, and was the chosen one.

did we all really need a star wars biology lesson?
(rolls up newspaper) BAD LUCAS!!! BAD!!! *smack*

im not going to debate it anymore, not out of any frustration
with you guys, but its just one of those topics that i can't hold a straight
face debating on

ill just say that:
i firmly believe that the force exists in all living things. based on speculation of vague quotes, and you guys disagree based on the same vague quotes. we could be at this forever.

Which is the good news!!!!

NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

i'm not sure lucas even thought this deeply about star wars,
you're giving me a headache!

You're probably right. More has always been made of the whole midi-chlorians thing than need be. I suppose if Lucas was not going to be clear when he created them, he might have done better to leave them out after all; it wasn't THAT important to give us a scientific marker of demonstrating Anakin's potential.

I agree. Introducing the midi's is a move in the direction of giving an explanation which wasn't needed at all. A Qui-Gon line like: "The Force is unusually strong with this one, stronger than I ever felt with Master Yoda" and a confirmation by OB1 when he meets Anakin would have done the job well without raising new questions. It would be vague and simple and we would all have accepted it. After all, Vader sensed the unusual Force with Luke in the ANh trench...

Let's not go there again!

Oh please.... you're no fun anymore.

its was BEN he sensed!!

NO!!! IT WAS LUKE!!!

NO!!! BEN!!!

LUKE!!!

BEN!!!!

TASTES GREAT!!!

LESS FILLING!!!!

MORE VALUE FOR MONEY!

You can debate what midis are and why, but Lucas will never explain it, he's said so himself. He's said that's why he doesn't like most sci-fi, especially Star Trek, cause they spend most of the time explaining how things work. He talks about it in the commentary to ANH, how your just thrown into a world and almost nothing is explained, like real life, when you use a toaster you don't explain what it is, you just use it. Don't worry about who sand people are or how a hyperdrive works, just sit back and enjoy the ride.
I doubt we'll ever get any more expenation than we did in TPM, it's not needed, this isn't Star Trek.

but he is guilty of "star treking" the films already.
by even mentioning a biological life form which interacts with the force,
ep1 entered the land of rodenberry.
when i saw ep1 for the first time, and saw the midi scene with
anakin and quigon....i thought "this wreeks of star trek".
GL tends to be a hypocrite at times.

If he Lucas had pulled a star trek, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Midichlorians were just mentioned with no explination as to what exactly there are. Yes they're what makes use of the force possible and the more you have the more you can use the force, that's all we know.

no, midichlorians were thrown into the plot to explain why anakin is the most powerful jedi. name one other bit of dialogue in the saga where we hear such a detailed scientific explanation of....anything

it was a lesson in star wars biology.
it was a massive star treking.

It wasn't massive star treking, yes it was a biological explination, the most scientific explination in all the movies, but that's not saying much since nothing else is explained in any detail. Not even the cloning is really explained, only in a very braod way, just like the midis.

its the ONLY scientific explanation.
name another one....

...well...other than han explaining to luke that hyperspace isnt like "dusting crops" but that was an explanation within reason...

in that it allowed han to make luke look like an a$$ for the moment

Who cares really? It was such a broad explination, we have no clue how they really work or exactly what they are, that's not very scientific, but as scientific as anything gets in star wars. I think people who are obbsessed with details needed that little scene between anakin and quigon, that's why lucas put it in there. Otherwise all you'd know was that a lot of midiclorians are good and not know what they are or even that they're related to force power. I could have done without that scene, but I really don't care that it's there. Doesn't bother me.

Touche!!!

i have yet to meet a single person who needed to see that scene.
we are ALL obsessed with details, me, you, everyone else here....thats why we are here, isnt it? so why is it that i have not read a single post saying "hey, the addition of midichloeans explained so much" or "what a cool idea"

anyone like the idea?

anyone?

*crickets*

Yeah, but The Force is something that doesn't need any explanation at all.

If Lucas wanted to explain how a hyperdrive worked, then fine.

If Lucas wanted to explain how laser guns worked, fine.

If Lucas wanted to explain how a lightsbaer worked, then, er, wait, the crystal thing already has.

But The Force? It's like a religion. It IS a religion. Since when is religion ever proven with technology? The midichlorians thing just proves the Jedi religion as fact - it takes away the magic.

The one thing Lucas didn't need to/should never have tried to explain was The Force. It's just an aura, an energy, some people can use it, some can't.

It does explain why certain people are born with an affinity while some aren't - but it kinda makes the whole thing a bit, I dunno, "elitist". Like you can only be a Jedi if you have those stupid midichlorians telling you about it. I'm always a fan of "hard work achieves" - but what's the point if you are just born with these things, like a Jedi Prince or something.

So for me personally, I hope in Episode 3 the midichlorians turn out to be nothing more than intergalactic ringworm (and would explain why Anakin had so many being a slave and all), and The Force goes back to being about mythos and legend.

Explaining is boring.

"The one thing Lucas didn't need to/should never have tried to explain was The Force. It's just an aura, an energy, some people can use it, some can't.

It does explain why certain people are born with an affinity while some aren't - but it kinda makes the whole thing a bit, I dunno, "elitist". Like you can only be a Jedi if you have those stupid midichlorians telling you about it. I'm always a fan of "hard work achieves" - but what's the point if you are just born with these things, like a Jedi Prince or something."

But none of that is true. He neither explained the Force, nor said that you had to have lots of midis to be good with it. The midis are nothing to do with explaining the Force itself- that he did in the Original films. And the midis turn up IF you are potentially powerful in the Force, not the other way around.

And if you are unhappy that some are born with the Force and some are not... well... (shrugs) sorry, it was always that way. You can only be a Jedi... if the Force is with you.

Same with talent really. Life's unfair.

before the PT i thought the force was in everyone,
and that luke was simply strongER with the force.
i share the view that it's kinda elitist.
sure life is not fair... but star wars is fantasy,
shouldn't life be fair in a fantasy?

oh well.

If yo notice the midiclorian are only mentioned in TPM. Maybe GL realized he made a mistake.

I don't see what's so wrong with midichlorians (except for the word itself). There are lots of theories in our own science about the possiblities of sentient microorganisms which would acccount for sudden evolutionary leaps in a species. In star wars, it just seems like they've identified the part of their cells that allow some people to connect to the force and not other people. I think its kinda interesting. But then again, I'm really into science so maybe it just doesn't matter to me.

ush was quoting someone else.
he thinks that its fine that spme are born with it and some are not.

Yup, those are not my words, Ash. Please read carefully.

yeah sorry my mistake

*waiting for Ush's "Apology accepted" - Vader style.*

you want ush to choke him to death with the Force?

wanna see what Anikan looks like after the lava bath?

http://www.moviespoilers.net/files/anakin9.JPG

http://www.moviespoilers.net/files/friedanakin.JPG

Yeah, seen those... pretty nasty.

do we know those are real? I don't think they are. His arm was severed ABOVE the elbow in AOTC. Plus...c'mon, that's beyond PG-13.

Is it? We've seen severed arms and hands before and that was just PG rated. I doubt it will all be filmed in close-ups, that way they can keep it PG-13. Don't worry.

Not the missing limbs, the extent of the burning. That's gotta be beyond pg-13, I haven't seen anything like that in a pg-13 movie that I can recall...

The upper part of the robotic arm could just be some type of connection collar.

It all depends how porminently it's being filmed... Who knows.

true, dim lighting or something might cover it enough. or something to that effect.

Exactly...

As far as the will of the force issue I think there is something you forgot to mention.
The OT was not about Luke as most people think. It was about he redemption of Anakin Skywalker. All 6 movies are about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin. He was the chosen one. It was the will of the force that directed his destiny not Lukes.

Just remember the simple fact was that Anakin Is the Chosen one therefore it is his destiny which shaped the Galaxy. In the end he made the Galaxy a better place even though for a while while the Empire ruled it looked as though the Force was wrong.

You guys agree or not?

george lucas agrees with your first point, but i dont.
the OT is about the adventures of luke skywalker and company.
only RotJ is partly about the redemption of anakin.

Vader does get a lot of screen time. Take empire, it cuts between what han and co. are doing, luke's training, and Vader. Anakin is still very much a main character, but he's just doing simple things that don't require a lot of exposition. Luke however, is training to become a Jedi, this needs lots of explaining. Also, Luke is the one that's supposed to bring down Vader. So its still Anakin's story, its just been expanded to include his son as well. His son is still very much a part of his story.

After reading GL's interview in Vanity Fair. Just wanted to rub it in Ush.