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here you have it. you want to continue the discussion of thor vs. juggernaut, heres the place to do it. first off though, i'd like to just throw in the rules. this is -physical- engagement. no teleportation. who would win and why???

now before anybody else gets to it, i think each comic should be reviewed. key points in the battle will be stated.

thor 411, its started off with juggernaut causing a little destruction in the streets when thor takes it upon himself to offer juggernaut a chance to surrender......... which wasnt the greatest idea as juggernaut casually backhands thor sending him hurtling across the sky (oh yea, thats power). juggernaut follows up by throwing a car, then a bus, which thor handily deflects. he's also his with a bout of nausea, so this is a tainted win at best for juggernaut (yes i try to be fair). by the time thor catchs up with juggernaut he is in a train yard, and juggernauts doesnt yeild as he throws a box car at thor, which thor barely catchs (because of the nausea) and juggernaut follows up yet again by running a second box car into thor. as juggernaut digs through the rubble, thor straigh jacks his jaw and knocks him clean off his feat (but it still doesnt hurt juggernaut in the least). now the end of the fight, thor throws his hammer, and juggernaut grabs the strap and rides it back and plows into thor and knocks him through 5 train box car...... about 100 yards and into another building.......... Thor OUT COLD. Chalk one up for the juggernaut.

#412 i'm going to start off with a quote, so nobody thinks that thor is still nauseated from his previous beating. thor - "atlast! the delirium flees my mind, and my strength returns to my limbs!" so the stage is set yet again, with 2 fully capable combatants. thor is standing behind juggernaut as he gives a speach (like its really going to do anything) and continues the battle as juggernaut is met with some lightning. Juggernaut - "that tickled! do it again!". now thor must be fed up or something cause he is resorting to a trick rarely use. he decides to use his godforce blast to down juggernaut.............. thor - "let the juggernaut fall" as he lets loose his -MOST- powerful blast he has at his disposal. this is quite an impressive feat on both thier parts. as 1) juggernaut takes it with out so much as a scratch 2) juggernauts forward momentum is haulted and before he can regain it, the very ground beneath him crumbles. next the crevasse is filled with steel beams and then melted down. thor then teleports that away.........

conclusion of the battle......... this has to be evaluated several different ways. Juggernaut landed no blows, but he took everything thor had to offer without a scratch. second thor couldnt do anything to juggernaut except dismiss him from the battlegrounds. also it should be noted that thor had help from the new warriors, so at best it would be a tainted victory for him. so its up to you as to what you count a win. for me??? i just cant see it. thors best efforts went for naut. physically though, there wasnt really a show down. all too little space in the pages of thor.

429 this is what all the controversy is over between myself and 1 other board member. starts out with juggernaut taking 2 swings and thor evading. then thor strikes one of his own, which set him up for an uppercut from juggernaut, which juggernaut follows up by chargins and running thor through a stone pillar....... next we see juggernaut swinging and thor dodging yet again. thor then throws the hammer outside the castle they are fighting in and negates the energy which makes the juggernaut....... THE JUGGERNAUT. now thor can apparently harm juggernaut (writer flaw, they made it seem as though the forcefield is what made juggernaut invulnerable, but i will address this again on the -next- battle) thor jacks cains jaw yet again, and shatters the helmet around juggernauts head. (i did make a mistake but will explain what i meant in just a second) as juggernaut lands on -his back-. juggernaut then rushs back into the battle and knocks thor down, and goes in for "the finishing blow" but misses yet again. thor now hits juggernaut 1........ 2........ 3......... times and cocks back for a fourth (this is when juggernaut refuses to fall, but was just about to finish thor off just seconds earlier). the only other blow landes is when juggernaut pics up a stone pillar and hits thor with it (which causes thor to drop his hammer).

now it seems to me this is what you would consider a win, as thor then dismisses juggernaut from the battle. but through the fight, thor only showed to be a better combatant, and he was able to nullify juggernauts force field. but before the -negation- juggernaut was still plowing thor around, just as he had in any issue. even when he was without alot of his power, he still made an account for himself by staying on his feat and taking the shots. but as i said thor was the better fighter. score juggernaut 1 - thor 1

now the only one left....... thor vol. 2 # 17. my favorite by the way.

starts out with juggernaut causing a little destruction (sound farmiliar) when thor decides to intervene (he wanted to do it as fast as possible because odin was in need of help, so YES this is still classic thor)

once again a quote ....... Thor - "There! a child trapped beneath yon massive pile of rubble! and whilst the juggernaut draws near, an official of the law doth bravely rush to her aid! Dare thor exhibit lesser courage? Dare thor abandon them to the savagery of a monster?"

now the fighting, juggernaut is met with a bolt of lightning, to which juggernauts only reply "eh" and then thor comes down to face juggernaut mano e mano. he swings his hammer, which has 0 effect on juggernaut.

(remember when i said writer flaw in the previous issue??? here is why) they made it seem as though juggernauts force field was the source of his invulnerability, but they take care to show that 1) juggernaut isnt using his force field, and 2) thor is hitting juggernaut as hard as he can directly against the flesh and has 0 effect on juggernaut. so take it for what its worth. up till now..... juggernaut hasnt landed a blow
but thor stands in front of juggernaut trying to give the officer time to free the girl, to which juggernaut tosses thor off to the side, and smashs him into a wall. then he walks off as thor thinks to himself "i cannot help but wonder -- "where in all the world is power enough to DEFEAT THE UNDEFEATABLE???"

the next part is just beautiful. thor strikes juggernaut 2 more times, which doesnt phase himthen juggernaut bear hugs thor. oohhhh the suspense......... now the beautiful part........ thor thinking - "rrrrr impossible to breathe! losing consciousness... mayhaps e'en life itself...?" then the fight is separated.

score juggernaut 2, thor 1. why do i count this as a win for juggernaut?? well lets review 1 more time. the entire fight, thor has a goal. the goal is to stop juggernaut. he was into the battle. but what did he not do??? he didnt accomplish his goal. now what was juggernaut trying to do the whole time??? well -in fact- he was hearing a strange call and thinking he had to be somewhere. he wasnt even attempting to fight thor most of the time. thor just didnt know when to quit and kept getting in the way. NOW, had the fight not been separtated..... where would thor be today??? possibly dead. he was questioning his own life, and juggernaut wasnt even trying to fight. a win??? i think so.

Here we go. I money's still on Juggernaut.

well, just have your guns loaded, the thor fans will be here in no time

To clarify it now so there's no confusion, is this classic Thor or King Thor? We already know it's classic Juggernaut, otherwise it wouldn't be a fight.

Lets not Forget. The new Thor. He's more powerful than King Thor or Odin. He has the odinforce and has learned to use it very well, has learned not to rely on the mjolnir as a crutch, and has mastered the power of ancient asgardian runes.

If it's that thor, then he kicks juggernauts butt in a split second.

I heard from a friend that Juggernaut's headed villainous again. Perhaps he'll get powered back up. Not that it pertains to this fight. Just seemed like a good place to mention it.

oh i hope juggernaut continues on his path of villain-ry. i hope he beats up the x-men, then laughs about it. then goes to a bar to pick up a chic. who else is at the bar??? hulk.......... oh wait, juggernaut beats him up to. who will put an end to the madness??? thor??? he shows up to, and get mjolnir shoves up his *ss.

"who else is at the bar??? hulk.......... oh wait, juggernaut beats him up to"

I think this might turn into a hulk/thor vs juggernaut thread now.

bring it on............. j/k.

i'll say anything to get a good debate going

I just want him to put that damn Iceman back in his place, the bastard, lol.

And splat that freakin fishboy.

I thikn the only reason thor stands a chance against juggernaut, is the fact that his hammer (don't know how to spell it's name) wields mystical powers, and juggy is vaunerable to mystical pwer of SUFFICENT (that means of a power as great as his) force, and the fact that he is an asgard

if the battle takes place in asgard, thor wins.

hey juggernaughfan, you think juggernaugh can beat thor, and you think thor can beat the surfer, what about surfer vs juggs? what do you think?

surfer losses in head to head.

jugs v thor, honestly its really close to call, but as for surfer v jugs, i think surfer'd win

Na, surfer losses. None of his powers can affect juggernaut head to head.

But can't surfer rearrange matter e.g Juggernauts armour, or has the mystically imbued metal resistant to that?

Yes, I still think the same way.

Oh Jesus, I got here late, I have a headache and don't feel like reading everything. Bottom line is this: *didn't read the newest issue, so that's out of the debate for me* Thor WON 429 HANDS DOWN. Juggernaut was not about to 'deliver the finishing blow' seconds before. He swung and missed, plain and simple. Thor was the one about to deliver the finishing blow when the hammer came back. That's when he 'teleported' him away. That's all there is to it. Thor won. Why are you denying that? I'm not denying 411, and if the newest issue happened the way you said it, then I wouldn't deny that as well. Thor CAN beat Juggernaut. And has.

The thing is though, Juggernaut's armor is to Juggernaut as an apron is to an art teacher.

What the hell does that mean? lol

It means I'm sure Juggernaut's armor protects him some but it's not where his invulnerability comes from.

Ah I see. Thought it was some sort of praise for art teachers about their ability. I was about to say, you obviously never had MY art teacher, lol.

hard to say. surfer beats hulk, hulk beats thor thor beats surfer. thats how i see it. but juggernaut has different properties than hulk. surfer cannot draw energy away from juggernaut like he does to hulk, and we have nothing to base this fight on, except who they have fought. its all up in the air as of right now.

i counted it as a win for thor.....




juggernaut says something along the lines of "just one more blow to finish you off" as thor is laying on the ground. to which thor rolls out of the way and replies "one i can easily evade" or something of that nature. thor didnt deny it, he just evaded it.





there was more to this, but it got deleted........ somehow. i dont care to discuss it anymore.


i just wanted you to know that thor has one....... once, when you said he had the upperhand most of the time. but he hasnt. he has lost atleast 2 battles of 4. 1 he did win, and the other was only a couple pages long, and was over before juggernaut got to thor. also thor had some help. so its an undecided battle as well.

I don't remember saying most of the time, considering I only have two instances where they fought. I just meant he would win most of the time, since he's insanely more powerful than ever now. Ok, since you meant he claimed he was about to deliver the finishing blow yeah, but it was really only more blow as he had only hit Thor once to knock him down. Has anyone ever tried to just poke out Juggernaut's eyes or something? Those aren't protected by his armor, I just wonder what would happen...that's the first thing I would do if I were fighting him, lol.

Have Surfer and Hulk actually fought? I would pick Hulk, unless it was a manner of Surfer on his board shooting energy blasts at him while he was surfing around the air. That's just a cheap way to win though, lol.

surfer incased carnage in a material similar in composition to the surfer's skin....how did carnage get out of that by the way?

If he managed that on Juggernaut, I wonder how soft magicially enhanced toilet paper would be.

who ever said thor beats surfer is wrong, and why does surfer always end up in these threads

No they're not, Thor would beat Surfer. Again, he's an over-rated bald reject from a Beach Boys song.

THATS IT I AM STARTING A SURFER VS THOR POLL ENDING IN ONE WEEK TO FINALY SHUT THIS ARGUMENT UP

when did this happen??

'

prove it........ surfer has admitted thor (CLASSIC thor) to be more powerful than himself. thor is also a better fighter and -HAS- knocked surfer unconsciouss. so how am i wrong??? prove it almighty know it all.

Yeah, was this before or after Carnage possessed Surfer and all his powers? Because I chalk that up as a victory for Carnage.

True, it's happened already. Shatterstar put a sword in his eye. Juggernaut simply blinked and it was back. Then he complimented Shatterstar on fighting so dirty, lol.

Then he'd like me, because that's the first thing I'd do. And then stick a grenade in his mouth, lol.


So Shatterstar's sword destroyed the eye momentarily? I would think that'd hurt, no matter Juggernaut's claim of 'nothing hurts me.' Oh yeah, then why do you say 'argh' and 'unhh' half the time??

I bet it feels weird having a sword in your eye. Or having your muscles and organs removed.

i dont think a grenade would do anything at all, the only reason the sword even did damage is because it was mystically forged.




argh i guess could be a sign of pain, but i think it follows the same line as unhhh or unhph or whatever. i doubt its pain, its more or less air being forced out of his lungs or him being disoriented (the human equiliberium can still be upset in juggernauts head). just because he doesnt feel pain doesnt mean you cant push air out of his lungs, if you are strong enough.

i'd go with thor, i mean he's got a legendary hammer


lol so basically everytime juggernaut breathes out he goes "arrgh" like Bolo from enter the dragon XD

well, have you ever been setting around doing something..... lets say lifting weights and made grunting......unhph noises?? i think so. or lets say setting on the toilet....... does it hurt??? no....... but do you grunt amongst other noises ??? yes......... same thing.

the origins of thor and juggs are very, even 'eerily' similar.

anyone seen that x-men 90's cartoon where some geek accidentally stumble on a cave and reads the inscription and is turned into the juggernaut?

i think that the thor and juggs are more brothers than anything else. very closely matched in powers and magic. i think the same peole that made thors hammer is the same people that forged juggs powers.

thor is really a man (eric masterson?) possesed or whatever by finding the hammer and reading the inscription and turns into the god of thunder. the man himself isnt the god, thor, the real god, thor is all god...
i feel the same way about juggs...the real juggs is like a god like thor, but he posses a mortal man like thor does too...

it is pretty even in powers. on different levels though.

surfer can take thor.

here is the ultimate stradegy to win a fight that u know u cant win against some one way bigger than u:

just get naked and give him a hug, he will get grossed out and run away

far from truth.......





shouldnt compare cartoons to comics. that will create alot of confusion. but yea, i did watch it.




cyttorak gave juggernaut his power, thor was born with his. atleast what he didnt gain from mjolnir.




you are getting 2 separate versions of thor mixed up here. thor is a god of thunder, and disgraced odin/asgard in some way shape or form, so letting a mortal man find the hammer and in control of the thunder gods power was a punishment for thor. it was at a time when odin banished thor from asgard. if i am remembering correctly. but none the less it is 2 different versions of thor.





juggernaut is a mortal, in possession of godlike powers, that much is true, but thor is thor. he has always had the mentality of a god, because he is one.




not sure what you mean by this one........



no he cant......... please give me an issue number.

jufffan every thing u said there was 100% correct, exeot for the surfer thing, witch i will no longer discuss in this forum

yup completely correct.

I liked watching Juggernaut and Thor go at it. I was kind of bummed that Thor had his little seizures because I felt he had his work cut out for him in the first place.

Since Thor has no psychic abilities, I give the fight to Juggernaut because there really isn't a way for Thor to hurt Juggs. But I do like how he was able to cancel out his "inpenetrable" force field.

Too bad disabling it meant Thor losing his hammer. That would have made the fight much...much more interesting.

Depends on the Jugs, and the Thor. The juggernaut now days has been owned easily, while the old juggernaut was amazing.

Old Jugs vs Thor: Thor, he could teleport jugs into space.

New Jugs vs. Thor: Thor easily.

but wut if its like 8th day jugs, he kicked thors godly ass

Is there a topic that doesn't involve win by displacement?

not these days

Lol, well you make an interesting, if not graphic, point about the 'unnh' being air expelled from lungs. But sometimes he makes that sound when he's hit, so it must be an uncomfortability factor. He recovers easily, but he makes the sounds of pain in addition to a fist slamming into his face as well as an illustration of grimace too.


I don't want to win ANY fight bad enough to get naked and hug the guy.

well historically, juggernaut has grown/shrunk with the amount of power he has gained or lost. in the story, thor claimed juggernaut's might had swelled 100 fold. juggernaut also says he feels like he can march through any man and that nothing can stop him. later it was revealed what juggernaut was "feeling". it was cyttorak reasserting dominance over cain markos will. juggernaut in this form didnt appear any more powerful than normal, only more destructive since he no longer had control over the juggernaut power.

thanks............. i try.





well its only a human reaction that if something flys at you to tense up. especially if its 3000 lbs per square inch comming at your face. but none the less it causes no pain.



for some odd reason, i have to agree with you here. reminds me of lethal weapon 4, and doing the chicken dance in a pair of boxers......

.........i've never grunted while sitting on the toilet, as for working out i only grunt while doing pull-up's for a long time

anyways, i think thor would beat the crap out of juggernaut

when does Thor become King Thor, and when does Thor get the Odin Force?

Gotta add to my collection.

When Fanboys attack!

Classic AND King Thor beat any form of Juggernaut.

Sorry, Juggernaut fans.

That's not what I heard! *snap snap*

I "heard" that G. Bush Jr. was smart.

Does that make it true?

*pirouette*

And oh. "King Thor" is Thor with the Odin Force. Thor #39, I think?

damn i havent Never on in like six years

I don't know where you heard that from.

But it seems like classic thor and king thor have very little on every incarnation of Juggernaut. If anything.

Where's the fight? Under what conditions are they bouting? T_T

Juggernaut is strong, invulnerable to a degree, and can withstand psychic attacks while wearing his helmet.

...wow.

Thor is Juggernaut's equal in strength, has thousands of years more experience fighting, has limited invulnerability, his Warrior's Madness which increases his strength 10-fold, has Mjolnir (which controls weather, grants him flight, projects blasts of mystical energy, allows him to travel interdimensionally, can absorb and redirect energy, projects a Godly Essence Blast, can nullify all energy, can detect energy sources), and has a high degree of resistantance to psi-attacks.

That's Classic Thor.

King Thor is Classic Thor on steroids (I do not feel like expounding on the "Odin Force". So yes, both Classic and King Thor are more powerful than ANY incarnation of Juggernaut, regardless of this long-in-tooth hemming and hawing in the thread.

As regards to Bush...blah, never mind.

And yet Thor's wins are by teleporting or pushing Juggernaut into a hole and Juggernaut's wins are by knocking Thor out.

Thor needed battlefield removal to win, and even then the first time he needed a distraction to set up a portal. If the arena's enclosed, he ain't tossing Jugg's to the moon again..

It took everything Thor had in him and his hammer to stop Juggernaut. This is quite a feat, no doubt about it, but that's a far cry from knocking him out.

Of course, Thor has opened up much bigger wh00p@$$ on a Celestial (2 different times), on Galactus at least once. I'm sure he could pull out an even greater pounding on Juggernaut. But these types of blasts are more on the order of a Dragon Ball Z power up, grunting, calling on the Odin energies built up inside the hammer, etc. These levels of power are virtually full-blown Odin-level, which would cause Cyttorak himself to be wary of a blast from it.

In the Arena, Thor would not hesitate to whip out a blast that could "destroy buildings on the other side of the planet". And if it cracks a hole in Celestial armor, Juggernaut is knocked out, minimum, probably severely damaged, and only kept alive by the Juggernaut magic.

Then at that point, Thor might be able to use the god-absorbing trick he learned from his friend Atum inside the sun (also used against Onslaught) and somehow sever the link between Juggernaut and Cyttorak, or the gem, or whatever.

To do all this, though, he'd need time. Which I guess he would have if he just floated way up in the air.

Thats all i have

So what.

Thor has beaten Silver Surfer. Is he more powerful than Silver Surfer?

Spiderman has beaten Firelord. Is he more powerful than Firelord?

Amazingly in ONE comic book, Juggernaut withstood the same GEB that pierced the armor of a celestial, sent Galactus packing, and destroyed The Midgard Serpent.

In ANOTHER comic book, Onslaught backhanded him from Canada to New York and left him smoking. Guess which depiction was garbage? That's right, the FIRST one.

In one comic book, Juggernaut "destroyed dimensional barriers." Wooo. In ANOTHER comic book, he struggled to knock out Venom. Guess which depiction was garbage? That's right, the SECOND one.

LoL, someone name for us Juggernaut's most powerful feat of STRENGTH where he LIFTED something. Hulk's? 150 billion tons. Thor's? Lifting The Midgard Serpent, whose weight causes the Earth to groan. For your edification:

Powers/Abilities: The Midgard Serpent possesses superhuman strength in excess of class 100, and is virtually invulnerable. The serpent normally exists in an ethereal form around Earth, but by making itself solid, can crush the Earth itself within its coils. When it becomes solid, it causes time to freeze, leaving only those from Asgard unfrozen. The serpent can also assume other forms, such as that of a cat, and of the alien dragon Fin Fang Foom. The serpent also produces a venom which is lethal even to the gods of Asgard, and can fire energy blasts from its eyes. The serpent can also fly, breathe both underwater and in the vacuum of space, and has powerful teeth and claws.

Height: 22'9"
Weight: Unmeasured <----------------------
Eyes: Red
Hair: None

I know hyperbole in comic books when I see it. Do you?

i think i put the "thats all i have " for a reason

Ehh... I haven't seen anybody else complaining about the first one but the second one gets all kinds of flak. Onslaught was quite a powerful force nontheless. And I think Juggernaut had recently had power troubles at that time. I don't quite remember.

The second one gets flak from the two very biased Juggernaut..."fans" on this messageboard. I find it AMUSING that they question Onslaught's ability to backhand an overrated Juggernaut that far when it took every available hero's combined might to take down Onslaught.

As if...Juggernaut > the combined might of those characters. Hilarity.

You saw no one complaining about the first one for similar reasons. I **know** that is pure, unadulterated horse poo. Nothing short of very biased writing would allow Juggernaut to withstand an otherWORLDLY force capable of piercing the armor of a Celestial.

Sadly enough, many subscribe to this type of hyberpole...one very ignorant boardie once opined that "if the Beyonder let loose an energy blast that destroyed the UNIVERSE, only Juggernaut would be left!"

Oh. My. God.

No, Juggernaut did not have "power troubles." He was AFRAID of Onslaught.

if juggernaut were that strong i dont think he'd be struggling with the things he's struggling with on uncanny xmen lol

i mean if he were that strong wouldnt he be fighting or helping some galactic hero or enemy, instead of struggling with black tom yet again

We are talking classic Juggs, prolly PC ?

ugh, i dont know....but i think i'd still go with thor lol

It's actually from other people who think the whole story was stupid.

And that'd probably be the case if you love assumptions.

I don't like it because that kind of physical strength wasn't even in the Onslaught mix. Even War Hulk didn't get that kind of distance on Juggernaut.



I wouldn't doubt it. He's survived a lot of damage and it's not like Cyttorak is in this universe. It all depends on the feed.



You sure? There's a lot of times where people are trying to fiddle with his powers.

"A lot of damage" and a blast from The Beyonder that destroys a universe is not even comparable. Juggernaut is not nearly the powerful. LoL, Dr. Doom absorbed Galactus' entire homeworld and was still not powerful enough.

And Classic Juggernauts is? Heh.

As regards to Juggernaut having power problems, I am quite certain. He was not missing anything...which is probably why he was still alive as opposed to being a brown streak.

onslaught made juggernaut his b.itch, punched him miles, but the problem was the onslaught saga was not consistent with the preceeding x-universe, they downplayed jugs powers somewhat.

im a big fan of thor and juggernaut, it'd be close but i think maybe juggs'd scrape it

Wow, you guys are really screwed up in a lot of things. One, Thor's victories did not come only with teleporting Juggernaut away, as I've said before. He beat Juggernaut plain and simple in 429, bashed him around like a Georgia-boy does his wife. As for Thor being more powerful than Silver Surfer? Yes. Yes he is.

Jugs is only a fraction of Cytorak's power...if someone on earth or anywhere else applies physical force greater than the power of Cytorak then Jugs is getting taken out...fall short of that threshold though and he wont feel it.

I like that assessment. Too bad Marvel never said that in the first place, I swear the writers show up to the board meetings having just rolled out of bed and half the time aren't even cognizant when they're coming up with things.

yea thats why i think it makes perfest sense for Onslaught to beat Jugs....once u pass that threshold Jugs will fold like a little ho....he is not mentally tough like Thing or colossus, he can be like that cuz he doesnt have to deal with the pain....Thing and Colossus both fought Champion until they were nearly killed and thing kept crawling after him when he couldnt stand anymore....Jugs wakes up from Onslaught and started running for his life until he found out he wasnt in canada anymore (not even a real country anyway)

Jugs Durability isnt based on his power (which is supposed to be infinite itself by the way) it is based on the very fabric of reality.

you cant surpass his durability with just plain phsyical force. unless you can exert enough physical pressure (some extremely high cosmic beings on the heirarchy may be able to do this) that you render reality itself assunder.

the way it was explained to me....... i'm going to relate to you just so you know.

if you drop a glass of water, its going to fall down. no matter how strong the guy is dropping it, its never going to fall up. no matter how strong the guy is, he will -never- hurt juggernaut by physical force.

There's the Onslaught thing though that people will always bring up. I think he willed the gem out of Juggernaut and that's what caused the most damage. Or it was a trance/dream sequence. Depends on the hour of the day for me.

I know this debate is over, but thought I'd just clarify: Thor DID push back Juggernaut in 412, using his godforce he shoved Juggernaut backwards until the cement collapsed. Jugs was freaked out because that had never happened to him. Granted, Thor had to pull out his big guns for that, but when you've got 'em, flaunt 'em.

but juggernaut said he would have overcome the godforce if given time, he just had to start moving forward again. i tend to agree with him, vs. thor.

but none the less an impressive feat.

Hmm, I don't know, remember the caption said Juggernaut was struggling and trying to regain his forward momentum, but they never said whether he was succeeding in that or not, as that was when the ground fell out. I think if Thor kept using the godforce, it would ultimately kill him or send him flying, but I'm not entirely sure how long Thor can sustain that power.

Juggernaut's durability is based on how much cytorak is feeding him at that moment. His durability can be overcome if cytorak's enchantment is overcome by a more powerful force.

yep...he cannot just will more power than Cytorak grants him...the glass of water explanation was nice...but sounds more like fanboyism...Jugs power comes from Cyttorak, if an opponent demonstrates more greater power or greater power than Cytorak himslef, he breaks the threshold...I would agree with the reality thing if his power was from TOAA, but its not, its from Cyttorak

cyttorak controls the crimson bands of cyttorak (the very thing that holds the universe together).

you have to over come reality itself to hurt juggernaut. its not fanboyism, unless you have a mystically enhanced weapon, you are not gonna hurt juggernaut.

stop it with the juggy threads?? He can't be physically hurt, period. Juggy is a lame a$$ cheap bastard. Every other hard hitter is cooler than him.....like Namor (who beat Thing and the Hulk).

I'd say injure instead of hurt. The sonics Nimrod used hurt him enough to make him pass out but he wasn't injured for instance.

Is Cyttorak an actual being? If so, has he been shown and what the hell is he if he's powerful enough to hold the universe together?

What? When the hell did he beat the Hulk outside of water?

it caused paralysis, it didnt hurt him.

well thats the problem, he hasnt been shown all that much.

it didnt say "outside of water" it said namor beat hulk and thing.

Cyttorak does not hold the universe together...he isnt even as powerful as a skyfather

I have seen juggernaut Knock out the hulk, sasquatch, thing, thor, and make wolverine look like a little mouse. Although I think in the Marvel Vs. DC issue Superman knocked juggy down and he didnt get up.

now is that you talking, or do you have proof, cause i'm disregarding this unless you can provide some. this is how rumors start.

I know it didn't specify that, but to me the fight isn't even a fight if it's in the water. The Hulk and Thing cannot really maneuver underwater so of course Namor has it then. Outside the water is when it would be an actual fight, thus I take any notation to a 'fight' to be outside water, and there's no way Namor can beat either of them in that environment.

Yes but Hulk and Thor have also beaten the Juggernaut, so you can't state this as with the implication that Juggernaut is out of their league. As for Wolverine, he's not even close to being on the level of any of the others. Juggernaut doesn't even have to turn his head to send Wolvie flying off the comic panels.

Cytorak is a mystical entity/god

Join the evangel slugfest showdown. You can pick Juggernaut, Hulk, or anyone on herald level or below as the power house of your team!

I would, but it seems like too much work, lol.

True his God-force was capable of pushing him back, but that was most certainly not his most powerful display of the God-force.

In Thor 388, when Thor uses his God-Force to break open the Dome that encased Exetar the Executioner's (celestial) brain...he summoned his God-Force so strong the he had to reinforce Mjolnir with his Belt of Power just to contain the energy and intensity of the blast. Next page...a few pages later the dome is cracked and Mjolnir was destroyed.

Now THAT would have probably been enough to hurt Juggs. Though I don't understand how Juggs could even take a regular God-Force blow seeing as Mjolnir is mystical in nature...shouldn't he have felt some form of pain?

Well he felt it. I don't know if it was 'pain', but it was a sensation that scared him and made him start screaming 'how is this possible?? no, nothing can stop me! no!' etc. My personal take on it is that it was the sensation of a mild heart attack or something, something that was uncomfortable and quite abnormal.

Mjolnir was destroyed? Mjolnir is supposed to be indestructable. That's quite a liberal interpretation of 'indestructable.'

Cyttorak has been classified as both god and demon, and he does NOT hold the universe together.

As far as him being incredibly powerful, yeah right. Cain Marko (Juggy Wuggy) defeated him in XMU #12.

Juggernaut knocked out Hulk, big deal. So did Doc Samson. But did Hulk not break the allegedly unbreakable Crimson Bands of Cyttorak in IH #450? Didn't even Namor break them in Marvel Team-Up #8?

actually hulk has been restrained several times and i'm not sure about namor. but if they were broken (the bands are based on the laws of mainstream reality) there would have been extreme circumstances for it to happen. such as war hulk stopping juggernaut.

also, you are again refering to the onslaught story arc and juggernaut. cant you just admit that its bad writing??? of coarse it is. how did Juggernaut (actually not even him, it was cain marko. he only -looked- like juggernaut but possessed -none- of the power) beat cyttorak?? well he ran into him and cyttorak blew up. now obviously........ that is bad writing. its like saying surfer runs into galactus and he blows up.......

They were broken in Incredible Hulk #450. Hulk broke them. Namor broke them. "Extreme circumstances?" Right, because it is indirectly a reference Juggernaut...?

Re: Cyttorak and Cain Marko, I did type Cain Marko. Juggy Wuggy was listed as an aside for anyone casually reading the thread who is not familar with Juggy Wuggy's "government name."

Re: "bad writing," opinions opinions. Anything on earth resisting Thor's Godly Essence Blast is "bad writing." In my opinion, that is.

oh how i'm glad you gave me an issue number, i had forgotten all about it. several times before this incident hulk had been restrained. but what made this so special??? well, hulk was still funneling extra dimensional energy. from the heroes reborn universe. this was causing a distrubance and DR. strange picked up on it. he cast the bands around hulk and they shattered like glass (yes they are based on the laws of this reality, not the heroes reborn universe) this is also what apocalypse picked up on, and this also lead to WAR-hulk. which in turn lead to juggernaut being stopped. thank you for proving my point






what?





like i said, his durability is based on the laws of reality, and thors godforce could not over come this. how is that bad writing?? now juggernaut running into cyttorak and blowing him up is bad writing. S.S. flying into galactus and blowing him up would be bad writing if it ever happened. so why is that so hard to admit......... honestly?? just think about it. what if S.S. did that and galactus blew up....... what would you think???

nice pic eh?

Something we agree on.

I never got how his fists are bigger than his head....talk about mutant.

i think thor will take juggs but i don't think he'd be walkin out

Well he doesn't have to, he can fly. lol

Having an "unstoppable object" meet a "unresistable force" is where screw-ups start! You can screw one character over and please one set of fans and cheese off the other or you can try to compromise.

JUGGERNAUT WINS THOR DESTROYIED ALL BONES BROKEN.

Fantastic assessment. But no.

Lol, that's pretty much summing it up. Took you long enough to bring out the big guns

hes not a mutant.

actually they did compromise...... theoretically when 2 such forces meet the environment around them would have to collapse before you would find out which one would prevail (which is exactly what happened).

It all depends on the outlook. Some may think "Juggernaut withstood the godforce!", some "Thor's godforce almost stopped the Juggernaut", and the others who wanted the godforce to blow Juggernaut on his ass or Juggernaut to plow through it like a fat kid into a garden hose.

but the world may never know......

I think Juggernaut has mutant blood in him, just because of the fists. I know he's the half-brother of Xavier, but maybe the mother was a whore and slept with so many people that she doesn't know who the father is of whichever one is hers, or if both. I have no idea. Yeah, Jugs is a mutie, lol.

Well he didn't 'withstand it' because he was pushed back, but he wasn't blown on his ass either....well actually he fell on his ass when the ground caved in.

He's Xavier's step brother. His dad married Xavier's mom.

Oh ok, so no blood involved. He's still a mutie. Nobody's that ugly without being a mutant, lol.

Sorry to dissappoint ya' wrath, but he's no mutie. That's just how he was drawn in the 90's, when overexaggerating character looks, muscles, cleavage, whatever, was cool. And there's plenty of ulgy folks in Marvel that aren't muties, lol.

It's also because of the Juggernaut thing. Here you can see he started at a normal size. Further down it shows him as just being a 12 foot man of normal proportions but that's more of an artistic portrayal.

if youre completely invulnerable (and still human), would there be a limit to your muscle's weight or strength?

i dont mean limits beyond hulk or things strength but somewhere along the lines of colossus strength

Maybe not technical 'mutants' in the genetic sense, but they're muties, lol!

this may be a little off topic here but who is stronger the recently revived Colossus or Thing. I read and official Marvel X-men encyclopedia and it had colossus at 100 tons and I saw that thing was at 85.

actually in one of the thor vs. juggernaut comics the narration calls juggernaut a mutant.......... writer blunder obviously. but its true.

I must admit I haven't read comics since Colossus was revived, but I do know that he is stronger than Thing now. In the old days, both Thing and Colossus were at Class 70. Wouldn't make much difference anyway; Colossus is made of metal, Thing of rock. Metal beats rock.

since they rivived colosssus i think he is acualy 100+, he is realy frikin strong now, but not as strong as hulk, probably equil strength to juggernaut, but not nearly as invonerable

I think Jug's victories can be racked up to poor writing. How come the X-men can stop Jug's but Thor can't? Cause Thor writer's used Jug's as a tool for different means. Whereas the X-men, always seem to come out victorious over Jugs. You really think the X-men can do anything to Jug's Thor can't?

The X-Men usually, if not always, beat Juggernaut the same way, with telepathy. Thor doesn't have this, so of course it's gonna be more of a fight for him. And with the pyschics on their team, I'd have to say yes they can do something to Juggernaut that Thor can't.

Fair enough. I don't read too much Thor but feel i have a good perspective on his power. What of this fight where thor blocks the crystals influence? What's stopping him from doing it again? What i really meant to say is Thor is resourceful. And while the X-men may be able to do things he can't (obviously) it is unfair to assume that Thor could not produce something to the same effect. Thor has beaten many, many, many foes more powerful than himself.

Thor did stop him. Twice. That's what we've been discussing.

Please post where (so i can throw it back at jugfan if need be.)

He's refering to their first two fights. Not physical defeats (knockouts, etc.), but when he sent him to different dimension.

you couldnt possibly throw anything in my face except a bunch of regurgitated B.S. i've seen it here and other forums a million times....

thor stopped him momentarily ONCE, not twice. juggernaut would have prevailed had the foundation he was standing on not cracked .......... hence can never be stopped completely

this is funny






well this has been discussed (yes by me) before too. in the issue where he "blocks the crystals influence" the writer made it seem as though the forcefield was the source of juggernauts invulnerability. this however is false and was taken care of in their most rescent battle. juggernaut didnt erect his force field and thor was (by his own admission) hitting juggernaut with his hammer directly against his "hide". yet juggernaut wouldnt fall.





read above statement......





well yes he is resourceful and has proven a worthy opponent to many but he usually has trouble with hulking bohemoths ....... i.e. juggernaut, destroyer, Hulk. obviously there is something to this, dont you think??



he cannot produce a team effort by himself..... he cant produce telepathy either. so its perfectly fair to assume that thor cant produce the same effects.....




juggernaut just happens to be one that thor has trouble with.

yea i agree that Jugs individual characteristics make him particularly formidable to Thor, even though Thor has beaten more powerful enemies. About the X-men thing, I think that Thor's ability to harness and absorb mystical energies is a better weapon against Jugs than telepathy...even if an X-men character takes out Jugs with telepathy they still cant cause him any real physical Damage (except for some extreme examples). Thor drawing away Jug's energies level the playing field so that Thor can actually cause some real harm.

i pretty much agree with this except for the fact that x-men and the telepathy thing. if they get his helmet off they dont have to knock him out with telepathy. they could toy with him and pretty much make him feel whatever they wanted him to at that point. or atleast make him -think- hes feeling it. i think they could actually mess him up pretty bad if they really wanted to. i think that is a much better weapon than messing with the mystical nature of his powers

interesting point...especially since Jugs is not a particularly strong minded guy

Well jugfan, Thor is a hulking behemoth, even more so than Juggernaut. This mystic power of his may be quite formidable, and i admit i was looking at things a little literally, but i still say that if it weren't for cheap writing Thor would mop the floor with Jugs.