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I always wondered why that was. Other than the emperor, Tarkin was the only other person that Vader repected in the OT.

vader seems to be more of an attack dog than a leader.
"i should have expected to find you holding vader's leash"

who knows...you would THINK that vader would be second only to the emporer. how ironic that he turns to the darkside partly because the jedi "held him back", but he has a non-force user with authority over him.

just further illustrates how he got screwed on that deal.

That is a good question. I don't really think its because Tarkin was a higher rank then Vader, but I think the Emperor probably favored Tarkin over any of his other governors and Vader had a certain respect for him as well. Tarkin was governor of the Outer Rim territories, I believe. I think that he did have some authority over Vader...to a certain extent, but I don't think he truly was a higher rank then the Emperor's own apprentice. I also think that Tarkin was older then Vader and that he knew what he was doing in his particular field, and Vader understood his knowledge.

maybe we'll know in ep3.

I agree with morgoths, plus Tarkin supposedly had something to do with the Death Star's origins, but if its not covered in ROTS, that will remain simple notes from Lucas which I suppose is considered EU. But I think its just that Tarkin was the commander on the Death Star and Vader was just respecting Tarkin's space and command.

Was'nt anakin at the time of episode3 and after the commander in the space forces that's how he got his super star destroyer I don't remember tarkin ever going to his ship before he died he was always on the death star. for now may force be with you.

I don't think Tarkin had any authority over Vader, I think he was just deffering to him out of respect while on the Death Star. He was a Sith, and I doubt he would have allowed himself to be in a secondary position. ROTS should show how Tarkin got to be in such a powerful position. I believe he did indeed have something to do with the creation of the Death Star.

GL talks about it on the OT DVD commentary - he says there's no real heirarchy - so there's not really a command over Vader, but he has to respect Tarkin - or something to that extent... the other reason that Tarkin probably doesnt realize how powerful Vader really is. They dont really remember the jedi all that much - so him wiping them all out isnt a big feat. Most people think its a hokey foolish religion - also - Vader isnt in the military at all, he is a sith - i still dont understand why he was on the death star

Absolutely. Vader is having to show respect for Tarkin; being the Emperor's troubleshooter did not place him above the most powerful of the military establishment..

But I am pretty sure Tarkin knows how powerful Vader is.

True......

I think Tarkin is a military commander over all the governors;
but Vader is more of a supervisor not directly involved in the
military events but more of the Emperors wishes......
Like Jedi were given missions to watch over individuals in gov't
but that did not mean that the official didnt respect the Jedi's
authority or power...



then again, maybe GL wasnt sure which direction to take Vaders
role in the military when he created the character....

pardon me for not knowing but you can you tell me what "ot" stands for?

Original Trilogy

GL not being certain about Vader's roie at the time is entirely possible.

Perhaps ROTS will explain the reason why Tarkin holds such a high position with the emperor.

Yeah, this will most likely be explained in Episode 3, of course alot of things are to be explained, but they've said it should answer most questions.

its like maul in ep1!!!!!at the orders of the viceroy!!!!

Good point.

Tarkin is the most evil non-alien, non-deformed character in the OT.
Its possible that the Emperor decided to put Vader in direct command of the navy in EP. 5.......

Anakin: "We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problem. Agree what's in the best interests of all the people, and do it."
Padme: "That's exactly what they do, the trouble is that people don't always agree."
Anakin: "Then they should be made to."
Padme: "By whom? Who's going to make them?"
Anakin: "I don't know. Someone."
Padme: "You?"
Anakin: "Of course not me!"
Padme: "Then someone...?"
Anakin: "Someone wise."
Padme: "That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me."
Anakin: "Well... if it works..."


anakin doesn't want to be a political leader.. he's just a very high up henchmen/general type guy.. sort of like general grievious in a way.

i think the only reason that Vader is in control in 5 is because A) tarkin and alot of highrankers died on the DStar, and B) HE wants to find Luke - so he probably told the emperor that he should be in charge - and just made up some reason.

Vader In Anh Was still just a henchman for Palp. Tarkin was a governor. Tarkin has more pull in the Imperial Senate. Vader is just a weapon of terror.

JJ1138,

I believe that part of that is true, but based on what
I have seen and how the politicians try to avoid any
intanglements with the Jedi ; they didnt
try to pull any power plays over Vader....

They would've certainly meet their demise like the
one governor in ANH.....

Vader was just an onlooker and watched to make
sure the Emperors will was followed...

would it be fair to say that after ep3 anakin has nowhere else to go, and sure he helped palpatine but only to keep the jedi from disturbing his plans,i think by doing this service for palpatine he is rewarded a place of rank on the death star beneath tarkin becouse like someone else said tarkin is the leader of the outter rim.....

CM,

Well, ofcourse Capt' I will have to disagree.....but I do see the point you are trying to make....

Because Tarkin is head of the governors and the Death Star that Vader is under his controll....
Let us think back to Lord Maul in TPM, he didnt fall under anybody's control, he just did as instructed by Palpatine/Sidious.....
I am sure that nobody would've stood in his way if he wanted to run things himself, but he has received his orders already...

And the same could be said for Count Dooku, yes he leads the trade federation but he has received orders from Palpatine/Sidious previously...remember when he returns to Coruscant and meets Palpatine/Sidious......

Vader/Anakin could have left after the Jedi were but his new master Sidious/Palpatine instructed him now....plus, that is who Anakin relyed on.....
ROTJ

So, to think that Tarkin had any direct control over Vader would be far fetched; but Vader did respect the authority that Tarkin was given by the Emperor......
Something else that catches my eye from ROTJ is when Vader returns to the New Death Star the Commander is very confident that things are in order; but Vader is sent there to get things on track....
When Vader mentions that the Emperor would be visiting soon, the Commander turns white as a ghost......
Vader seems to be in perfect control of things....

i think out of respect he does not try to control tarkin,i guess what i'm thinking is that it may seem tarkin has authority over vader,but in fact vader is just there to overlook the construction of the death star,the emperor would destroy tarkin before vader,if it came to it.....

after skimming through all the posts my above post is what i now think.....i never really gave the whole tarkin thing any thought....

Okay, I know this is an old thread but I didn't want to start a new one. I prefer to recycle because it keeps the place cleaner. And it gives a chance to see new opinions now that more films came out!

A few people have mentioned that Vader seemed to be in control, and that he had respect for the Moff. Both could be very true and both would make sense.

However, another to add (not take away or replace the two above suggestions)... Darth Sidious might have been applying the same style of training to his Apprentice (Vader) as what he recieved from his own Master (Darth Plagueis).

"Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you."

By denying Vader the ultimate authority after himself, Sidious was keeping his anger and frustration alive. Just as Plagiueis kept things from Sidious to keep his anger alive, thus making him a better and far more powerful Darth Lord.

We can only assume, Vader was ready to be the true second in command in the years that came after the date 0BBY when the Death Star was destroyed. But it would make sense for a Master to pass on the techniques that he/she had also been taught in their Apprenticeship.

expanded universe material is irrelevant here.

I think it was simply that Vader was the behind the scenes power, being a member of the clandestine sith, and Tarkin his needed public counterpart/carry over from the corrupted republic of old..

Mirrored by the Maul behind the scenes/on the QT thing in TPM.

The imperial public at large were most likely under the impression that Palps was just an ex-chancellor attacked and mutilated by those evil Jedi folk, with only Kenobi, Yoda and a select few like the the top rebel leaders and possibly Owen, Beru etc left knowing otherwise. "History is written by the winners" etc

Look at the way that the even the force was regarded in ANH:
IE The belief of followers of an ancient religion widely treated with skepticism by even the governing faction that conquered the galaxy partly at its dark side's behest..!

So, the republic/imperial aspect was the one that the public were sold on. And so, to me, In Raiders of the Lost Ark terms, Tarkin and the boys were the face of it, and Vader was like the top SS guy Toht you never would have heard about in Raiders til he turned up in your nepalese bar chasing some artifact, at Hitler's command, whilst all the public would hear about is *insert well know nazi commander's name here* invading Africa. (not admitted publically to be about going after Tannis specifically)

Originally posted by focus4chumps
expanded universe material is irrelevant here.

not movie-canon =/= irrelevant. It was just speculation about the psychology or thought process that might've informed the circumstances we see in the films.

I think Vader was the the Nazi Secret Police of the Empire. The SS always wore the long, black leather trenchcoats and had the lightning bolt "SS" insignia to differenciate them from the officers and common soldiers. They had no "rank" over the military officers but everything about them was imposing. He was only on Tarkin's Death Star because he hauled Leia there after capturing her, trying to find the stolen plans.

It seems in the movie like Tarkin was the one placed in charge of the Death Star. Of course, Darth Vader is the Emperor's right hand so he could overrule (choke to death) Tarkin whenever he wished. I bet he just didn't want to bother with the trouble.

wrong


vader is clearly outranked by tarkin in ep4, not just on the death star.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
wrong


vader is clearly outranked by tarkin in ep4, not just on the death star.

It is debatable on whether or not Tarkin actually outranked Vader. As has been pointed out, Vader probably may not evan have an Imperial military rank: his ability to govern is from a political position via the Emperor. He is referred to as "Lord Vader" but this may be a reference to a full title which is Sith Lord Darth Vader (I don't believe this was canonically known until the PT came out) or simply an honorific.

One can, and accurately so, argue that Tarkin told Vader to release him and Vader complied in the same situation as two colleagues arguing and a third peer tells them to stop.


IIRC, Vader makes use of some authority and resources while on the Death Star and of the Death Star without getting permission from Tarkin. Clearly, Vader has some power that is militarily mutually exclusive from Tarkin. One could argue that Vader outranks Tarkin and be equally correct as saying Tarkin outranks Vader.

I think the "Captain of the boat" analogy is the best fit/description for this situation. Tarkin was captain of the boat so Vader, despite his rank, respected the orders/wishes of Tarkin in situations where commands were given.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It is debatable on whether or not Tarkin actually outranked Vader. As has been pointed out, Vader probably may not evan have an Imperial military rank: his ability to govern is from a political position via the Emperor. He is referred to as "Lord Vader" but this may be a reference to a full title which is Sith Lord Darth Vader (I don't believe this was canonically known until the PT came out) or simply an honorific.

One can, and accurately so, argue that Tarkin told Vader to release him and Vader complied in the same situation as two colleagues arguing and a third peer tells them to stop.


right its just a long string of coincidences that he's the one giving orders to vader/above vader and vader complies/supports those orders. at any point vader could have been like "its my turn to be boss." and tarkin would have taken bottom.

I believe that Vader was only subordinate to Tarkin on the Death Star-- as he was its commander. Outside the Death Star, command would naturally fall to Vader.

Originally posted by Galan007
I believe that Vader was only subordinate to Tarkin on the Death Star-- as he was its commander. Outside the Death Star, command would naturally fall to Vader.

he was also the boss of vader on the star destroyer at the beginning of the film. tarkin was a regional governor, possible more with a name like "grand moff". regardless, he was the boss.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
right its just a long string of coincidences that he's the one giving orders to vader/above vader and vader complies/supports those orders. at any point vader could have been like "its my turn to be boss." and tarkin would have taken bottom.

You missed this part:



And which orders did Tarkin give Vader that he followed through, exactly? I am not entirely sure they were "orders" orders...but, again, I could be wrong as I am not sure. It has been over a decade since I have seen the OT. Just haven't had time to make it through, yet.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
he was also the boss of vader on the star destroyer at the beginning of the film. I honestly don't remember that. Been a long time since I've watched ANH, though.

It should be noted that Leia said that Tarkin had Vader on a leash or something to that effect. That could imply that Vader was used as a scare tactic or something, by the military. That also implies subordiantion.


But by ESB, Vader looks to be the head honcho over all the Imperial Military.

Originally posted by dadudemon







what part of "direct control" is confusing you?

Originally posted by dadudemon
But by ESB, Vader looks to be the head honcho over all the Imperial Military. Well yeah. Most of the key players in the Empire's political/military hierarchy died when the Death Star was destroyed.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
what part of "direct control" is confusing you?

There is no problem or confusion on this end, however, I don't think you understood what Galan and I stated:

Originally posted by dadudemon
It is debatable on whether or not Tarkin actually outranked Vader.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think the "Captain of the boat" analogy is the best fit/description for this situation. Tarkin was captain of the boat so Vader, despite his rank, respected the orders/wishes of Tarkin in situations where commands were given.

Originally posted by dadudemon
IIRC, Vader makes use of some authority and resources while on the Death Star and of the Death Star without getting permission from Tarkin. Clearly, Vader has some power that is militarily mutually exclusive from Tarkin. One could argue that Vader outranks Tarkin and be equally correct as saying Tarkin outranks Vader.

Originally posted by Galan007
I believe that Vader was only subordinate to Tarkin on the Death Star-- as he was its commander. Outside the Death Star, command would naturally fall to Vader.

Also, to the bit you're getting hung up on about the regional control of the Tarkins (pretend Galan meant regional control, if you get hung up on that). Wasn't The Emperor in control of everything?

Do you have a clip or a time stamp for where this regional thing is stated? If you do, could that not be arrogant boasting that was clearly false?

Originally posted by Galan007
Well yeah. Most of the key players in the Empire's political/military hierarchy died when the Death Star was destroyed.

Were not there more Grand Moffs than just Tarkin?

Also, there were plenty to promote up if the virtual "Joint Chiefs" were dead. Were not there Imperial Admirals by VI? I believe there were at the Battle of Endor.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Do you have a clip or a time stamp for where this regional thing is stated? If you do, could that not be arrogant boasting that was clearly false? Here's the quote I believe he is referring to...

"The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the old Republic have been swept away."

"That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?"

"The regional Governors now have direct control over their territories . Fear will keep the local systems in line... Fear of this battle station." - ANH

Originally posted by dadudemon
Were not there more Grand Moffs than just Tarkin?

Also, there were plenty to promote up if the virtual "Joint Chiefs" were dead. Were not there Imperial Admirals by VI? I believe there were at the Battle of Endor. There were, but many of them were on the Death Star when it blew, iirc.

Regardless, Vader's only superior during ESB/RotJ was Palpatine, Grand Moffs/Admirals be damned... That said, I think Vader was merely giving Tarkin his due respect while aboard the Death Star. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Here's the quote I believe he is referring to...

"The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the old Republic have been swept away."

"That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?"

"The regional Governors now have direct control over their territories . Fear will keep the local systems in line... Fear of this battle station." - ANH

Ah. The context makes that much more clear. The direct control part is a reference to the elimination of the senate and not a statement about no control from the Emperor. Meaning, the Grand Moff's no longer had to go through the bureaucracy.

Originally posted by Galan007
Regardless, Vader's only superior during ESB/RotJ was Palpatine, Grand Moffs/Admirals be damned... That said, I think Vader was merely giving Tarkin his due respect while aboard the Death Star. /shrug

That is how I view it, as well.

glad thats how you view it. but you're wrong.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
glad thats how you view it. but you're wrong.

As long as it's settled that you make erroneous claims, further discussion with you holds no relevancy in this thread.



Ushgarak or Queeq, is there any more information that can be provided or are Galan and I truly "wrong"?

maybe i should quote myself ad infinitum. isnt that how all your winning is done?


Originally posted by focus4chumps
what part of "direct control" is confusing you?

Originally posted by dadudemon
And which orders did Tarkin give Vader that he followed through, exactly? I am not entirely sure they were "orders" orders...

"Vader release him immediately" was one.

And he did release the officer he was force choking..with an totally complient "as you wish".
Trakin then followed this up his "This bickering is pointless" bollocking of Vader and the officer...

Other references to the hierarchy like Leia's appraisal of the relationship as Tarkin "Holding Vader's leash" clearly support the Tarkin highest position on this.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
"Holding Vader's leash"

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9615/starwarspdvd703.jpg

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
"Vader release him immediately" was one.

And he did release the officer he was force choking..with an totally complient "as you wish".
Trakin then followed this up his "This bickering is pointless" bollocking of Vader and the officer...

Other references to the hierarchy like Leia's appraisal of the relationship as Tarkin "Holding Vader's leash" clearly support the Tarkin highest position on this.

I covered this perspective, already, and so did Galan:

"I think the "Captain of the boat" analogy is the best fit/description for this situation. Tarkin was captain of the boat so Vader, despite his rank, respected the orders/wishes of Tarkin in situations where commands were given."

But Vader exercised some autonomy even while on the Death Star. This indicates that he wasn't quite under Tarkin...

Originally posted by focus4chumps
maybe i should quote myself ad infinitum. isnt that how all your winning is done?

If you read up just a little bit, you'll see I addressed this, already, too:

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ah. The context makes that much more clear. The direct control part is a reference to the elimination of the senate and not a statement about no control from the Emperor. Meaning, the Grand Moff's no longer had to go through the bureaucracy.




I am okay with discussing a topic and exploring the various aspects of it but talking in circles is not really what I prefer to do.

finding someone who accepts your completely and factually wrong assessment does not mean you "covered" it.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
finding someone who accepts your completely and factually wrong assessment does not mean you "covered" it.

Post on topic instead of trying to bait off-topic arguments.

Originally posted by dadudemon
He is referred to as "Lord Vader" but this may be a reference to a full title which is Sith Lord Darth Vader (I don't believe this was canonically known until the PT came out) or simply an honorific.


"The awesome, seven-foot-tall Dark Lord of the Sith makes his way into the blinding light of the main passageway. This is
Darth Vader, right hand of the Emperor. His face is obscured
by his flowing black robes and grotesque breath mask, which
stands out next to the fascist white armored suits of the
Imperial stormtroopers. Everyone instinctively backs away from
the imposing warrior and a deathly quiet sweeps through the
Rebel troops. Several of the Rebel troops break and run in a
frenzied panic."



-"Star Wars: A New Hope script

STAR WARS
Episode IV

A NEW HOPE

From the JOURNAL OF THE WHILLS
by George Lucas

Revised Fourth Draft
January 15, 1976

LUCASFILM LTD."

http://www.blueharvest.net/scoops/anh-script.shtml


Seems pretty canon to me.
So again, easily dismissible pontification with an unconvincing false air of authority falls flat on it's backside.

so ddm's remaining valid points:

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Seems pretty canon to me.
So again, pontification falls flat on it's backside.

Isn't that a bit of an extreme statement on your part? How much clearer did I have to make it that I wasn't too sure about it with multiple references to my dubiousness and requests for mod clarification on this topic? Additionally, what about the direct statement that I had not seen the movie in over a decade?

I am above this so I can say my belief about "Dark Lord of the Sith" was wrong. But you've only helped my point by bringing that up. Was that your intention? Just to remind you, my original point was about why he was called "Lord Vader" and that was leading credence to my overreaching point that he is not a definitive military leader in ANH.

Edit - I saw your post before the edit. Was it a bit to vitriolic upon a second reading? No worries: I won't report you for anything like that. Have at it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No worries: I won't report you for anything like that. Have at it.

no, please do. lol

I would say the edited one was better and more descriptive with the added "easily dismissable" and "false air of authority" as you seem very adamant. (especially before your edit) Problem?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I would say the edited one was better and more descriptive with the added "easily dismissible" and "false air of authority". Problem?

3 edits on that last statement to get it just right? lol

Edit - Let me know how this: "..wasn't too sure about it with multiple references to my dubiousness and requests for mod clarification on this topic? Additionally, what about the direct statement that I had not seen the movie in over a decade?"

Equals this:

"pontification with an....air of authority"


But this is derailing the thread to be off topic just to have petty arguments. If you wish to have a pissing match or something, take it to PMs.

"Grand Moffs received drastically increased authority, military forces, and funding as fitting their enhanced position. The position of Oversector governor was the sixth highest in the Empire after the Emperor, Lord Darth Vader, Grand Vizier, Imperial Ruling Council, and Grand Admirals."

The above fact was confirmed in no less than 3 separate guides/bios. Even IF you want to call official guides/bios "non-usable EU material", it is still nigh-ludicrous to disregard that much evidence in favor of a few statements made during ANH. Imo.

Screenfeats>>Pamphlets and packaging third party guides no matter how "official". Xizor and Grand admirals like Thrawn weren't shown. Sounds like EU to me. The movie wins.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
he was also the boss of vader on the star destroyer at the beginning of the film. tarkin was a regional governor, possible more with a name like "grand moff". regardless, he was the boss. Wait, what? What scene is this? When do we ever see Tarkin anywhere but on the Death Star?

Originally posted by Galan007
"Grand Moffs received drastically increased authority, military forces, and funding as fitting their enhanced position. The position of Oversector governor was the sixth highest in the Empire after the Emperor, Lord Darth Vader, Grand Vizier, Imperial Ruling Council, and Grand Admirals."

The above fact was confirmed in no less than 3 separate guides/bios. Even IF you want to call official guides/bios "non-usable EU material", it is still nigh-ludicrous to disregard that much evidence in favor of a few statements made during ANH. Imo.

Interesting and relevant. Anything from GL on this specific subject, though?

To me, "Right hand man" should settle it but it isn't that simple.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Screenfeats>>Pamphlets and packaging third party guides no matter how "official". Xizor and Grand admirals like Thrawn weren't shown. Sounds like EU to me. The movie wins. The guides/bios extrapolate on where Grand Moffs are ranked in comparison to both EU and non-EU Imperial positions.

...And Grand Moff falls below Vader in every one of said guides/bios.

I understand you totally wanting to overlook these multiple references, though. They do, after all, entirely obliterate your stance.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Wait, what? What scene is this? When do we ever see Tarkin anywhere but on the Death Star?

he was the regional governor (at the least). he was the boss of vader on the death star, and on the star destroyer. but yes you're right he was not physically on the star destroyer. if i had known that would spark confusion i would have worded that better.

Originally posted by Galan007
The guides/bios extrapolate on where Grand Moffs are ranked in comparison to both EU and non-EU Imperial positions.

...And Grand Moff falls below Vader in every one of said guides/bios.

I understand you totally wanting to overlook these multiple references, though. They do, after all, entirely obliterate your stance.

attempting over and over to peddle non-canon material will yeild the same result every time.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Interesting and relevant. Anything from GL on this specific subject, though?

To me, "Right hand man" should settle it but it isn't that simple.

agreeing with the peddling of non-canon material will yeild the same result every time.

Originally posted by Galan007
The guides/bios extrapolate on where Grand Moffs are ranked in comparison to both EU and non-EU Imperial positions.

...And Grand Moff falls below Vader in every one of said guides/bios.

I understand you totally wanting to overlook these multiple references, though. They do, after all, entirely obliterate your stance.

Movies>>Non movie material. Sorry this entirely Death Star lasers your stance...just the way it works.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Movies>>Non movie material. Sorry this entirely Death Star lasers your stance...just the way it works.

I would make that a singular to "movie" because Vader steps it up authority by the time ESB rolls around. But, yeah, I definitely agree here and based on Galan's post, he probably agrees too.

But I don't think the stuff in the movies is as definitive in one particular way like you do. There are 2 other points to consider that I brought up that make it seem not so much like Tarkin was the definitive boss of Vader. I try to reconcile this problem by using the "captain of the boat" analogy.

Originally posted by Galan007
The guides/bios extrapolate on where Grand Moffs are ranked in comparison to both EU and non-EU Imperial positions.

...And Grand Moff falls below Vader in every one of said guides/bios.

I understand you totally wanting to overlook these multiple references, though. They do, after all, entirely obliterate your stance.

Oh, I didn't know that (the part about the guides distinguishing the EU and non-EU take on the Grand Moffs). I always ignored the guides as unnecessary fluff.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I would make that a singular to "movie" because Vader steps it up authority by the time ESB rolls around.

Proof..?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I would make that a singular to "movie" because Vader steps it up authority by the time ESB rolls around.
horseshit. there were no grand moffs depicted in esb or even rotj. btw, the one being force choked in ep4 (while tarkin took a trollishly long time to break it up) was only a general. (see credits) there is no proof at all that vader was promoted to anything.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But, yeah, I definitely agree here and based on Galan's post, he probably agrees too.

no, he continues to peddle EU/non-cannon. nice try though.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But I don't think the stuff in the movies is as definitive in one particular way like you do. There are 2 other points to consider that I brought up that make it seem not so much like Tarkin was the definitive boss of Vader. I try to reconcile this problem by using the "captain of the boat" analogy.

your "captain of the boat" analogy is completely arbitrary and bootless. your point is easily dismissible as has been all your posts in this thread. grand moff tarkin's rank was clearly depicted in the script as having "direct control" of his region. this means that everyone besides the emperor within his designated territory answers to him. if anything his rank was elevated considering his territory included a mobile space station.

dance all you wish. tarkin was the boss.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It is debatable on whether or not Tarkin actually outranked Vader. As has been pointed out, Vader probably may not evan have an Imperial military rank.


Anakin's last recorded Military rank was General (Which are subservient to Grand Moffs)

Not trying to 'peddle' anything. If you fellas don't want to accept info from multiple sources that overtly tells us where a Grand Moff ranks in comparison to Vader, that's fine. Don't care.

However, I find the notion that a few random/ambiguous comments equates to Tarkin outranking Vader across the board... Naive at best.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Anakin's last recorded Military rank was General (Which are subservient to Grand Moffs) That was during the Clone Wars/RotS. ANH took place, what? 20 years after RotS?

Yeah...

Originally posted by focus4chumps
horseshit. there were no grand moffs depicted in esb or even rotj.

Why state this? It makes no sense to state this unless I said there were Grand Moffs in ESB and RotJ.

My original point on that was about the admirals:

Originally posted by dadudemon
...there were plenty to promote up if the virtual "Joint Chiefs" were dead. Were not there Imperial Admirals by VI? I believe there were at the Battle of Endor.

But about that...I remembered something about Vader's seeming promotion from IV to V.

Remember Griff? Vader promoted him to Admiral in ESB. He was also in command of a fleet by this point. Not sure what happened but, apparently, Vader got more responsibilities after the death star other than being a watch dog for the Emperor. Nothing contradicts this and there is only evidence to support it. If you can find a single example or statement from Lucas of someone other than the Emperor that outranks Vader in ESB or RotJ, I'll concede.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
btw, the one being force choked in ep4 (while tarkin took a trollishly long time to break it up) was only a general. (see credits) there is no proof at all that vader was promoted to anything.

See above. But I'm pretty sure Motti was an admiral at the time. The only general I am aware of that was sitting at that table was Tagge.

Another note: If Vader was as high ranked as he was in ESB, I am sure he could have demoted Motti or something for arguing with/insulting Vader. Unsure why he would squabble with him like that if he was higher ranked than an Admiral in the Empire.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
no, he continues to peddle EU/non-cannon. nice try though.

To me, he acknowledged the argument before you posted it:

"Even IF you want to call official guides/bios "non-usable EU material..."

But, feel free to ask him if you thinks the guide is superior to the movies as far as canonicity is concerned.

To clarify before you state it, he thinks the guide is useful in this instance due to the ambiguity in the movie:

"...it is still nigh-ludicrous to disregard that much evidence in favor of a few statements made during ANH. Imo."

Originally posted by focus4chumps
your "captain of the boat" analogy is completely arbitrary and bootless.

Other than it not being arbitrary and is relevant, of course.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
your point is easily dismissible as has been all your posts in this thread.

Oh my.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
grand moff tarkin's rank was clearly depicted in the script as having "direct control" of his region.

"The context makes that much more clear. The direct control part is a reference to the elimination of the senate and not a statement about no control from the Emperor. Meaning, the Grand Moff's no longer had to go through the bureaucracy."

Originally posted by focus4chumps
this means that everyone besides the emperor within his designated territory answers to him.

"there is no proof at all" that your statement is true.

Contradicting your statement are the autonomous actions Vader took while on the Death Star.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
dance all you wish. tarkin was the boss.

He was definitely the boss of the space station, no doubt. Captain of the Boat n'all.


Side note: thanks for bring it directly back on topic.


Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Proof..?

See my above reply.


Do you have proof that Vader maintained the same exact position he held in a New Hope that also explains away the evidence that supports a promotion?


Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Anakin's last recorded Military rank was General (Which are subservient to Grand Moffs)

I always saw Anakin's exploits in the Clone Wars as a bygone of the Republican Military and not the Empire. The Galactic Empire was formed after Anakin forsook his old Republican Military and Jedi lifestyle and became Darth Vader. So what I was talking about was the fact that, in the Empire, Vader seemed to hold no direct or legitimate military position in ANH. It wasn't until ESB that we see him with actual military command and the ability to promote people.

Guys what the f*ck are you all arguing about? Vader's position within the Empire is never specified. He's given only the vaguest of authority in the OT. He clearly has some, but exactly over who and to what degree is never shown. Tarkin and the Emperor were definitely above Vader, and he was definitely above every other character with spoken dialogue, but there isn't a single line or gesture in the entire trilogy that clearly--clearly puts Vader's authority on any level.


"Regional governor" is never correlated with the word "moff", a title that my memory can't even recall from the films. Tarkin was called governor. Vader obeyed orders from Tarkin and the Emperor. End of story. Seriously, what are you all arguing about?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Why state this? It makes no sense to state this unless I said there were Grand Moffs in ESB and RotJ.

because the grand moff was the only one depicted as having authority over vader besides the emperor. its called "frame of reference".



Originally posted by dadudemon
But about that...I remembered something about Vader's seeming promotion from IV to V.


Remember Griff? Vader promoted him to Admiral in ESB. He was also in command of a fleet by this point. Not sure what happened but, apparently, Vader got more responsibilities after the death star other than being a watch dog for the Emperor. Nothing contradicts this and there is only evidence to support it. If you can find a single example or statement from Lucas of someone other than the Emperor that outranks Vader in ESB or RotJ, I'll concede.

its called "battlefield promotion" (look it up before setting off on your next wildly scatterbrained and lengthy retort). the former admiral was killed and vader was the commanding officer. its common military practice.
again you have no frame of reference to support your claim of vader's promotion. yet another easily dismissible non-point.

Originally posted by dadudemon
See above. But I'm pretty sure Motti was an admiral at the time. The only general I am aware of that was sitting at that table was Tagge.

got it. you're right and the credits at the end of ep4 are wrong.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Another note: If Vader was as high ranked as he was in ESB, I am sure he could have demoted Motti or something for arguing with/insulting Vader. Unsure why he would squabble with him like that if he was higher ranked than an Admiral in the Empire.

more bootless pontification. while its clear vader has a special arrangement within the command structure (gets away with assaulting lower ranking officers and gets admonished with a gentle brow-beating), its clear...again....that tarkin wore the pants in that room. PAINFULLY CLEAR. also that was not a situation which warranted vader promoting/demoting since...again...tarkin was the commanding officer


Originally posted by dadudemon
To me, he acknowledged the argument before you posted it:

"Even IF you want to call official guides/bios "non-usable EU material..."

But, feel free to ask him if you thinks the guide is superior to the movies as far as canonicity is concerned.

To clarify before you state it, he thinks the guide is useful in this instance due to the ambiguity in the movie:

"...it is still nigh-ludicrous to disregard that much evidence in favor of a few statements made during ANH. Imo."



Other than it not being arbitrary and is relevant, of course.


then you obviously have your own special arbitrarily method of translating plain direct english:
Originally posted by Galan007
The guides/bios extrapolate on where Grand Moffs are ranked in comparison to both EU and non-EU Imperial positions.

...And Grand Moff falls below Vader in every one of said guides/bios.

I understand you totally wanting to overlook these multiple references, though. They do, after all, entirely obliterate your stance.


Originally posted by dadudemon

Oh my.



"The context makes that much more clear. The direct control part is a reference to the elimination of the senate and not a statement about no control from the Emperor. Meaning, the Grand Moff's no longer had to go through the bureaucracy."
more bootless and fallacious drivel.
what part of "direct control" does not apply to the military in a miltary/police state? i find it fascinating that you're going to keep breathing life into this nonesensical non-issue

First of all, Galan, I'm afraid that really does count as EU material so it really should not be in this debate.

Secondly, I think what some have said about putting rank aise is fair enough. This isn't about rank; I don't think Vader has a rank that can be compared to be higher or lower than anything. What Vader has is the brutal authority that comes from the exercise of sheer power, and its down to whether he thinks he can get away with doing that.

Just to support that idea...

I think people concentrate a bit much on Vader strangling Motti as an indication that Vader outranks him. But look at how Motti spoke to Vader in the first place- in terms of utter contempt, outright insulting. This is not the behaviour of a subordinate to a superior officer. Vader's just not really in that command chain at all. He is, of course, feared, and this is the point of the scene. Motti feels confident because of the Death Star and so looses off on Vader; Vader quickly re-asserts that Motti is in no position to speak to him that way. But Vader demurs to Tarkin because Tarkin genuinely does have power that Vader wants to respect (and let's not forget that they are actually portrayed as friends, so again this is not necessarily about military authority).

The other line we should not forget is Leia's- saying that Tarkin is holding Vader's leash. That's direct information describing the situation to the audience. Vader is the attack dog to be unleashed- but Tarkin has the control. You can make that out to be an official arrangement (Tarkin outranks Vader) or simply a practical reading of how the situation is (Tarkin is powerful enough to exercise control over Vader), but it does make the position clear.

I don't think Vader's more assertive behaviour in later films is evidence of promotion- merely that there's just not anyone around who has enough authority and power that he respects to make Vader listen.

I also think this debate reflects the fact that Tarkin was awesome and it's a shame that his type of presence is not reflected in the later films (Veers comes closest but is underused).

Originally posted by dadudemon

My original point on that was about the admirals:



But about that...I remembered something about Vader's seeming promotion from IV to V.


Um? False memory syndrome, maybe?



Ummm pretty sure there was no Admiral Griff in ANH/ESB.
Certainly not referred to.. (neither by name, or even on the credits...) The point made about Battlefield promotion covered that. Vader doesn't seem to directly have the authority to promote people in the military, (if he isn't in it, technically) any more than Xenomorphs had the "authority" to promote Corporal Hicks to command in 'Aliens'... (Hicks ended up in command because Apone and anyone higher were killed)



So this Admiral Griff EU character is inadmissable too, yes?

ush i agree with all that except for 2 points:

first, vader had to have a place within the command structure to be able to promote officers including and up to admiral (and especially getting away with killing admirals.) while being subordinate to a governor. in ESB he treats admirals with the same respect as he would a droid, and seemingly with full impunity. so i think its safe to conclude that he was above general motti.

he did not have a defined title of rank, but the emporer had likely given him a place within the command structure to avoid any subordinate/superior confusion (like vader getting pissed off and killing one of palp's grand moffs, or an admiral refusing vader's orders)

second, motti's antagonising of vader and the subsequent force-choking occurred in council and not on the field. its reasonable to assume that officers are able to speak opinions freely in such a setting or whats the point in holding council?

That's why beyond speaking your mind- that was outright offensive and showing no respect for position. An outright insult spoken with no respect. Council or otherwise, that's not someone working inside the military rank structure!

I think Vader's appointment of people in ESB on is just realpolitik- who's going to argue with it? Still, who's to say one way or another? He's in charge by then, clearly, so the means is unimportant.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's why beyond speaking your mind- that was outright offensive and showing no respect for position. An outright insult spoken with no respect. Council or otherwise, that's not someone working inside the military rank structure!

we have no indication that he wasn't in fact being insubordinate to a senior officer. he may well have been reprimanded by tarkin had vader not taken the initiative to interrupt his tirade and choke him out.


Originally posted by Ushgarak
I think Vader's appointment of people in ESB on is just realpolitik- who's going to argue with it?

the general mythos surrounding the sith inclines me to agree with you. but the contradiction in the form of tarkins authority over vader is why i've always always found this topic fascinating.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Still, who's to say one way or another? He's in charge by then, clearly, so the means is unimportant.

well we know he is in charge of that star destroyer fleet in ESB, and in charge of the mission to capture skywalker. perhaps the emperor just sends him on errands and defines his authority on a mission by mission basis.

as you said its anyone's guess. but its refreshing to get back to the actual topic and debating valid points.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Veers comes closest

Slightly off topic but I noticed that Veers is played by the same guy who plays Grand Maester Pycelle in Game Of Thrones.

Now back on topic. Growing up, I always felt that the whole issue of how powerful the Grand Moffs were in relation to Vader was really more about GL not being able to set his ideas out properly. As in, by ESB he realized he had to make Vader's position/authority above question.

even so, the authority of the governors is never contradicted in eps 5/6 or even addressed.

granted, if palps found a governor too uppity and wanted him wacked, he'd probably send vader.

IMO, I saw Vader as outside the normal military command structure. He's the Emperor's enforcer, is sent in to make sure operations are flowing according to plan; does what he wants mostly but still knows his place on the food chain.

/end rant

Originally posted by focus4chumps
perhaps the emperor just sends him on errands and defines his authority on a mission by mission basis.

This is probably the best answer

Originally posted by focus4chumps
because the grand moff was the only one depicted as having authority over vader besides the emperor. its called "frame of reference".

This point of yours requires you to ignore another point I made about Vader acting autonomously at times in ANH. But I think you're right about what you say later. I'll visit that, in a second.





Originally posted by focus4chumps
its called "battlefield promotion" (look it up before setting off on your next wildly scatterbrained and lengthy retort). the former admiral was killed and vader was the commanding officer. its common military practice.
again you have no frame of reference to support your claim of vader's promotion. yet another easily dismissible non-point.

I do not honestly think your point here addresses the point I made in the section you quotted. You're just restating what I am stating but with different words. It does not contradict that point I brought up, only talks about it in a different way. Yes, we know it was a battlefield promotion...from whence commeth his authority to promote on the fly like that? Why can he promote all the way up to admiral and KILL admirals with no repercussions from, say, a Moff?

Again, "But I think you're right about what you say later. I'll visit that, in a second."



Originally posted by focus4chumps
got it. you're right and the credits at the end of ep4 are wrong.

Everywhere I look on the interwebz, it says Motti was an admiral and Tagge a general. They even have different shirt rank thingies and Motti's shirt thingies match other admirals. I don't see the end credits being posted as evidence in this thread.

Just look at all the results that say Motti was an Admiral:

https://www.google.com/search?q=admiral+motti&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t

(Let me know if that link doesn't work).


Same with Tagge:

https://www.google.com/search?q=admiral+motti&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t#safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&q=General+Tagge+Star+Wars&oq=General+Tagge+Star+Wars&gs_l=serp.3..0.8660.9795.3.10298.6.6.0.0.0.0.96.518.6.6.0...0.0...1c.1.12.psy-ab.bvEsn4nfHus&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46226182,d.dmQ&fp=b539068e688eb4a1&biw=1024&bih=606




Originally posted by focus4chumps
while its clear vader has a special arrangement within the command structure (gets away with assaulting lower ranking officers and gets admonished with a gentle brow-beating), its clear...again....that tarkin wore the pants in that room. PAINFULLY CLEAR. also that was not a situation which warranted vader promoting/demoting since...again...tarkin was the commanding officer

It is not painfully clear. You want it to be clear but it really just isn't. You are willfully ignoring other evidence that contradicts you position. Remember, I have never asserted that Vader is superior to Tarkin or even inferior...just different.









Originally posted by focus4chumps
more bootless and fallacious drivel.
what part of "direct control" does not apply to the military in a miltary/police state? i find it fascinating that you're going to keep breathing life into this nonesensical non-issue

If you take a step back and think about it more objectively and less emotionally, don't you think you have a false sense of superiority in your position? Clearly, there is ambiguity on this particular topic. If there wasn't, the mods would have closed this thread on page 1.

If it were cut and dry, why has this discussion been had on multiple forums and there are clearly differing opinions on those sites and this site, too?



But onwards:

Originally posted by focus4chumps
more bootless pontification.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
then you obviously have your own special arbitrarily method of translating plain direct english:

Are these types of posts really necessary? Can you at least pretend to not be a troll to have a normal conversation?



Lastly:


Originally posted by focus4chumps
perhaps the emperor just sends him on errands and defines his authority on a mission by mission basis.

This is probably the most sound and concise reasoning for this thread. I can forget about all the other things we've been discussing and agree, here. If you want this to function as a concession, so be it.


Originally posted by Robtard
IMO, I saw Vader as outside the normal military command structure. He's the Emperor's enforcer, is sent in to make sure operations are flowing according to plan; does what he wants mostly but still knows his place on the food chain.

/end rant

As did I. I more or less stated this.



Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Um? False memory syndrome, maybe?

I don't know if that is a problem you're suffering from but if you say so. Don't be so hard on yourself, though: you seem to remember quite a bit.



Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ummm pretty sure there was no Admiral Griff in ANH/ESB.
Certainly not referred to.. (neither by name, or even on the credits...) The point made about Battlefield promotion covered that. Vader doesn't seem to directly have the authority to promote people in the military, (if he isn't in it, technically) any more than Xenomorphs had the "authority" to promote Corporal Hicks to command in 'Aliens'... (Hicks ended up in command because Apone and anyone higher were killed)



So this Admiral Griff EU character is inadmissable too, yes?

You obviously know who I was talking about. Clearly I meant Admiral Ozzel.

And, it is directly seen on screen that Vader has the authority to promote people all the way up to Admiral, at the very least, in ESB. I don't know what you're talking about with all that other stuff...because we saw it happen. Also, Aliens is an entirely different movie: hardly useable as evidence for why and what Vader did.

Originally posted by dadudemon
To me, he acknowledged the argument before you posted it:

"Even IF you want to call official guides/bios "non-usable EU material..."

But, feel free to ask him if you thinks the guide is superior to the movies as far as canonicity is concerned.

To clarify before you state it, he thinks the guide is useful in this instance due to the ambiguity in the movie:

"...it is still nigh-ludicrous to disregard that much evidence in favor of a few statements made during ANH. Imo."

Originally posted by Ushgarak
First of all, Galan, I'm afraid that really does count as EU material so it really should not be in this debate. Fair enough.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You obviously know who I was talking about. Clearly I meant Admiral Ozzel.


Not quite your day I am afraid- you mean Piett

Originally posted by dadudemon


You obviously know who I was talking about. Clearly I meant Admiral Ozzel.

You didn't, as Ush duely noted...said syndrome in action...?




Nah all he'd need is knowledge of who was currently admiral (the guy he chokes out) and whom his immediate under was.
Are you saying Vader was so dumb that he wouldn't be able to know what battlefield promotion was? Are you saying that he would just assume that if an admiral was killed or fragged that no one could or would replace him? Or are you just desperately trying to avoid admitting that you are most likely wrong?
(Something you really needn't do, as it can happen to anyone)

Be it another film or not it was an example that works of battlefield promotion that translates well to a military command structure that -'Grand Moffs' aside- seems to have the same system as the US military on Earth..?

first thought when reading all that: "dear god if only george rr martin had ddm's level of literary inspiration and speed of churning out creative writing, winter would have ended over 4 years ago." but to be fair he also has to engage us by providing substance and consistency.


my favorite part:

Originally posted by dadudemon

Everywhere I look on the interwebz, it says Motti was an admiral and Tagge a general. They even have different shirt rank thingies and Motti's shirt thingies match other admirals. I don't see the end credits being posted as evidence in this thread.



this is exactly your problem. it is factually in the end credits of the film which you profess expertise, but you demand screencaps. fine i'll jump down yet another of your silly rabbit-holes:

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u561/focus4chumps/IMG_20130509_075510_796_zps1a243024.jpg

(this was especially a pain in the ass since apple's dvd player doesnt allow screencaps, so thats from my celphone cam. the things i do for love)

but then again your interwebz pages say he's an admiral so that must be correct.

now i suppose i have to find an actual high ranking military officer to explain "battle promotions" to you? that could prove impossible, so i guess my point is rendered moot, right?

2nd favorite part of your scatterbrained charade:

Originally posted by dadudemon

If you take a step back and think about it more objectively and less emotionally, don't you think you have a false sense of superiority in your position?Clearly, there is ambiguity on this particular topic. If there wasn't, the mods would have closed this thread on page 1.

If it were cut and dry, why has this discussion been had on multiple forums and there are clearly differing opinions on those sites and this site, too?


if only you were the mod, some sense would be restored to this forum, right? after all, the question is "How come Moff Tarkin is higher on the food chain than Darth Vader?", not "Was Moff Tarkin higher on the food chain than Darth Vader?"

since you are sure that vader was in fact above the command structure, and thus not subordinate to tarkin, this whole thread is completely and utterly moot and should be locked right away, correct?

oh well i guess we're all forced witness this thread proceed, and continue enduring ush's halfassery in leaving it open (deductive reasoning, knowledge of fact vs. speculation, having seen the films more than once, perhaps the pathetic drive to even view them again...ugh)

almost forgot

Originally posted by dadudemon


This is probably the most sound and concise reasoning for this thread. I can forget about all the other things we've been discussing and agree, here. If you want this to function as a concession, so be it.


ddm, this is called a "debate". its what people do when there is no objective fact answering and closing the topic. in this case, people present plausible explanations and compare/contrast. maybe if you were not so fucused on winning you wouldnt have to constantly make such an embarrassing spectacle of yourself.

that portion of my post which you took as a "concession" is actually me presenting/accepting one of many possible explanations. "possible", ddm.

you should learn to do the same. god forbid anyone presents a plausible answer which contradicts yours, or worse yet points out a blatant flaw in your reasoning; rather than being open minded or simply accepting another possibility, you just....
k_BqhblPX5Q

Those credits actually have Tagge's name (as given in the script and GL's notes) wrong.

I do think Motti is wearing a General's uniform though. I'll have to watch it again.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Those credits actually have Tagge's name (as given in the script and GL's notes) wrong.

I do think Motti is wearing a General's uniform though. I'll have to watch it again.

even if a minor difference in insignias exists, there may be different levels of general which could explain it. for an american example: 1 star/brigadier gen, 2 star/major gen, 3 star/lieutenant gen, 4 star/chief of staff.

:edit: before ddm gets excited and jumps all over this, i'm just using this as a line of reasoning and not attempting a direct comparrison to the u.s. military command structure...especially since our navy and coast guard have admirals but no generals, and vice versa for the other military branches.

I'm actually not looking at the insignia, which have always been a bit of a nightmare to work with, even before the massive costume error with them in ROTJ (one of the few on-screen things that's actually had to be excised from canon).

oh i thought you were also addressing ddm's suggestion of inconsistent insignias.





..."inconsistent insignias" try saying that 3 times fast.

Nah, I meant the actual uniform. I think the Generals and Admirals dressed differently, but I really will have to check.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Not quite your day I am afraid- you mean Piett

I meant this guy, on the left:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120104152654/starwars/images/b/b1/Ozzel_croaks.jpg

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
You didn't, as Ush duely noted...said syndrome in action...?

Well, you tried, at least, to make fun of me. But it didn't work.




Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Nah all he'd need is knowledge of who was currently admiral (the guy he chokes out) and whom his immediate under was.
Are you saying Vader was so dumb that he wouldn't be able to know what battlefield promotion was? Are you saying that he would just assume that if an admiral was killed or fragged that no one could or would replace him? Or are you just desperately trying to avoid admitting that you are most likely wrong?
(Something you really needn't do, as it can happen to anyone)

Be it another film or not it was an example that works of battlefield promotion that translates well to a military command structure that -'Grand Moffs' aside- seems to have the same system as the US military on Earth..?

None of this drivel is relevant, at all. It is not worth replying to.


Case in point: he was called captain by Vader, and then Admiral by Vader in the same conversation. Vader gave the promotion.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I meant this guy, on the left:


That's Mr. Belvedere.

this is the funniest exchange i've read here in a while. surely it must be parody

Originally posted by dadudemon

Remember Griff? Vader promoted him to Admiral in ESB.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
So this Admiral Griff EU character is inadmissable too, yes?

Originally posted by dadudemon
You obviously know who I was talking about. Clearly I meant Admiral Ozzel.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Not quite your day I am afraid- you mean Piett

Originally posted by dadudemon
I meant this guy, on the left:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120104152654/starwars/images/b/b1/Ozzel_croaks.jpg


yes! thats admiral ozzel being promoted

Originally posted by focus4chumps
this is the funniest exchange i've read here in a while. surely it must be parody












yes! thats admiral ozzel being promoted

Troll harder:

By Admiral Ozzel, I meant the Admiral choked out, not the admiral promoted. The admiral promoted was Piett. Even if context implies otherwise, you don't get to choose what I meant.

If you knew who Griff was, you'd understand why I confused him for Ozzel: Ozzel replaced Griff after Griff died. It was literally a Freudian slip.

I sincerely hope he's trolling, because it's hard to believe that anyone here would be dumb enough to think that you were saying Vader promoted a dead guy.

Tbh, I think he is, in fact, just fabricating reasons to troll you at this point. That's what it seems like, at least.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
even if a minor difference in insignias exists, there may be different levels of general which could explain it. for an american example: 1 star/brigadier gen, 2 star/major gen, 3 star/lieutenant gen, 4 star/chief of staff.

:edit: before ddm gets excited and jumps all over this, i'm just using this as a line of reasoning and not attempting a direct comparrison to the u.s. military command structure...especially since our navy and coast guard have admirals but no generals, and vice versa for the other military branches.

Just saw this: yeah, he was an admiral and the credits are wrong (mistakes can happen). The other dude I mentioned was a general.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Troll harder:

By Admiral Ozzel, I meant the Admiral choked out, not the admiral promoted. The admiral promoted was Piett. Even if context implies otherwise, you don't get to choose what I meant.

If you knew who Griff was, you'd understand why I confused him for Ozzel: Ozzel replaced Griff after Griff died. It was literally a Freudian slip.

i guess its not over yet

yes im totally trolling you by quoting the exact course of that topical exchange. better report me.

Don't be utterly ridiculous dadude. It's immensely obvious you cocked up with the names, and you are in no position to get so awkward about it. Mockery is well warranted when you become that evasive, and focus' quote chain sums up the situation well. You directly said 'Vader promoted him to Admiral in ESB'. That's nothing to do with any EU character, nor does it refer to Ozzel, and the whole mis-understanding is entirely on you.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Don't be utterly ridiculous dadude. It's immensely obvious you cocked up with the names, and you are in no position to get so awkward about it. Mockery is well warranted when you become that evasive, and focus' quote chain sums up the situation well. You directly said 'Vader promoted him to Admiral in ESB'. That's nothing to do with any EU character, nor does it refer to Ozzel, and the whole mis-understanding is entirely on you.

Okay. But by "him" I literally meant Piett, not Ozzel. This is why I said, "You knew what i meant" because it amounts to nothing more than petty squabbling just to say, "AHA! I got you on something!" which is what half of these points being discussed really are.

I apologize for the confusion.

But I did not know we could mock other posters. I thought you got onto me for talking down to other posters, before, and even said I would be banned if I continued to do it? Is that just a rule for me due to my past or does that apply to everyone?

Right, well, these things happen- let's move it on.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Okay. But by "him" I literally meant Piett, not Ozzel. This is why I said, "You knew what i meant" because it amounts to nothing more than petty squabbling just to say, "AHA! I got you on something!" which is what half of these points being discussed really are.

I apologize for the confusion.



Originally posted by dadudemon
But I did not know we could mock other posters. I thought you got onto me for talking down to other posters, before, and even said I would be banned if I continued to do it? Is that just a rule for me due to my past or does that apply to everyone?

oh dear lord

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Right, well, these things happen- let's move it on.

Okay. No problem. Moving on.


So we all agree that Vader was just given ad-hoc authority based on assignment from the Emperor or are there still disagreements about his authority?

That Admiral who gets choked out was Mr. Bronson in Grange Hill, I always love seeing him get choked out in ESB 'cos Mr. Bronson was a ****. He also played Hitler in Indy 3.

And Julian Glover (Veers/Pycelle) was the guy who hired Indy in Indy 3 too. Both he and Michael Sheard (Ozzel) are known for Doctor Who roles also. And Peter Cushing played Dr. Who in the 60s movies, and the guy who told Tarkin to abandon ship also played an evil Federation Officer in a very similar role in Blake's 7 about a year later.

You can go on forever with all this, basically. GL made common use of the British acting talent pool.

I guess I'll shut up then.

Originally posted by dadudemon

None of this drivel is relevant, at all. It is not worth replying to.


Case in point: he was called captain by Vader, and then Admiral by Vader in the same conversation. Vader gave the promotion.

Oh it is you who are mistaken....about a great many thinnngs.
I was bang on target.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Oh it is you who are mistaken....about a great many thinnngs.
I was bang on target.

LYbwbYx82_I


Not sure why Piett is thanking Vader after Vader says, "You are now in command, Admiral Piett" after he just called him "Captain Piett" a few seconds prior.

and back down the rabbit-hole we go.


nobody has once argued that vader did not promote anyone.

again: "battlefield promotion"

This. /\

Originally posted by dadudemon
LYbwbYx82_I


Not sure why Piett is thanking Vader after Vader says, "You are now in command, Admiral Piett" after he just called him "Captain Piett" a few seconds prior.

To be fair, all that tells us is that Vader can (perhaps through the force) correctly address people by their rank. How they got the rank is not clear.

or simply that via linear deduction he knew that piette was the de facto admiral. another possibility. but we dont deal in possibilties here.

http://riotandfrolic.typepad.com/.a/6a015431fc4e55970c017ee5e35b15970d-800wi

Originally posted by focus4chumps
and back down the rabbit-hole we go.


nobody has once argued that vader did not promote anyone.

again: "battlefield promotion"

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
This. /\

Forgive me if I don't go back through posts and requote them and then post put up a bunch of smilies.



Originally posted by Bardock42
To be fair, all that tells us is that Vader can (perhaps through the force) correctly address people by their rank. How they got the rank is not clear.



Originally posted by focus4chumps
or simply that via linear deduction he knew that piette was the de facto admiral. another possibility. but we dont deal in possibilties here.

So Vader promoted him to Admiral or he didn't?

Originally posted by dadudemon

So Vader promoted him to Admiral or he didn't?

Originally posted by focus4chumps

ddm, this is called a "debate". its what people do when there is no objective fact answering and closing the topic. in this case, people present plausible explanations and compare/contrast.

So no direct answer or even an attempt to directly answer the question? No problem. Thanks for the discussion.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So no direct answer or even an attempt to directly answer the question? No problem. Thanks for the discussion.

i believe its well implied that vader gave piette a battfield promotion. just pointing out the possibility that it was simply a de fact promotion since piette was presumably left as the most senior officer.

possibilities, ddm.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
i believe its well implied that vader gave piette a battfield promotion. just pointing out the possibility that it was simply a de fact promotion since piette was left as the most senior officer.

Citation needed or are you trying to use the EU?

I do not disagree that he was probably the most senior leader in that mission. He turns out to be more competent and/or obedient that his predecessor, for sure.


So back to the original point since it seems both you and Sadako do not disagree with me on the original point....

Originally posted by dadudemon
Citation needed or are you trying to use the EU?

sorry ddm. simple deductive reasoning is generally not considered EU

Originally posted by focus4chumps
sorry ddm. simple deductive reasoning is generally not considered EU

Then I'll take yours and Sadako's attempt to peddle "Battle Field Promotion" as canon as irrelevant.

But could you go back to my original point concerning this since we agree. Petty squabbling does no good for an adult discussion. I'm willing to let that old argument go: it doesn't matter since we agree.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Then I'll take yours and Sadako's attempt to peddle "Battle Field Promotion" as canon as irrelevant.

take it how you wish. you'd be clearly in the wrong though.
battlefield promotion is common and universal military practice.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But could you go back to my original point concerning this since we agree. Petty squabbling does no good for an adult discussion. I'm willing to let that old argument go: it doesn't matter since we agree.

agree on what exactly? you realise you'll never win this thread, right? if it makes you feel better: nobody will. ever. you should let that sink in before you get reprimanded again.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Then I'll take yours and Sadako's attempt to peddle "Battle Field Promotion" as canon as irrelevant.




Then you truly are behaving like the energizer bunny of fail.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
take it how you wish. you'd be clearly in the wrong though.
battlefield promotion is common and universal military practice.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Citation needed...




Originally posted by focus4chumps
agree on what exactly? you realise you'll never win this thread, right? if it makes you feel better: nobody will. ever. you should let that sink in before you get reprimanded again.

"Win"? This is about "winning" something to you?

I thought you said it was about this:




As you already know, I wanted to revisit that old point again since we seem to agree on the extension of that point.

Since we agree, there's no need to discuss that further and your off-topic baiting regarding this will be ignored on this end. If you want to actually have a productive and fulfilling discussion, by all means, let's go back to my old point on this.


Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Then you truly are behaving like the energizer bunny of fail.

This post contains no on-topic substance and just amounts to chest-thumping. Do you want to discuss something on topic or do you want to see who can sling the most clever insults? If the latter, I'm out.

thats another thing. countering your point or pointing out a hole in your reasoning is not "baiting" its DEbating. ffs man.

Originally posted by dadudemon

This post contains no on-topic substance and just amounts to chest-thumping. Do you want to discuss something on topic or do you want to see who can sling the most clever insults? If the latter, I'm out.

Nope you're wrong again.

It was commentary on your willful ignorance regards to the battlefield promotion issue.

*sigh* i get it

the words "battlefield promotion" have to have been spoken in the script or its inadmissable. and dont give him any of that "universal military practice" or "simple deductive reasoning" nonesense. since darth vader did not say "as per my right to issue battlefield promotion, you are now promoted to admiral, piette", the point is moot and ddm wins.


also since vader did not say the words "you are in command now, but not in command of the whole empire, admiral piette", vader actually promoted piette over himself and even the emporer.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Nope you're wrong again.

It was commentary on your willful ignorance regards to the battlefield promotion issue.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
thats another thing. countering your point or pointing out a hole in your reasoning is not "baiting" its DEbating. ffs man.

I invited both of you to discuss stuff, on topic. Obviously, neither of you are interested in doing so. You're just posting chest thumping replies and trying to make what you think are clever insults.

See you later.

Okay man, you attempted to insult me earlier calling a perfectly logical post as "drivel", and now you play victim. So whatever. Have fun.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Okay man, you attempted to insult me earlier calling a perfectly logical post as "drivel", and now you play victim. So whatever. Have fun.

Calling a post "drivel" is not the same thing as insulting others which is what you are doing.

Just because Ushgarak is considerably bias against me does not mean what I am saying is wrong.



All replied to your drivel posts will be here.


lol...you were genuinely insulted that I called your post 'drivel'.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Just because Ushgarak is considerably bias against me does not mean what I am saying is wrong.

i guess even the moderation team is not immune to your unsubstantiated accusations.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
i guess even the moderation team is not immune to your unsubstantiated accusations.

His own words, in public: I am on the last straw with him and I get no leeway. That's viewable by everyone. It is no secret that if I piss him off one more time, I will be perma-banned. Just ask him. Whether or not I view that as fair is irrelevant and how he treats other members' posts relative to my own posts is also irrelevant: there is a clear bias against me because of things that happened in the past and that is my own fault. I don't get second chances like supposed new members do.

But, I will reply to all other off-topic comments via PM.


Edit - I used your real name out of habit, Focus. I was trying to do work and reply at the same time. I'll ask the mods to edit my post. I know we have had our differences in the past but I wouldn't do that on purpose unless you were okay with it. I sincerely apologize for that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Calling a post "drivel" is not the same thing as insulting others which is what you and Paul are doing.

Just because Ushgarak is considerably bias against me does not mean what I am saying is wrong.



All replied to your drivel posts will be here.


lol...you were genuinely insulted that I called your post 'drivel'.

It was an attempt at an insult, and also...especially as the post you refered to was not drivel in the slightest, merely one you chose to disagree with.

"All replied to your drivel posts will be here."? Wow rage grammar showcase..?

I suggest calming down. Ush seems to have been very reasonable.

Originally posted by dadudemon
His own words, in public: I am on the last straw with him and I get no leeway. That's viewable by everyone. It is no secret that if I piss him off one more time, I will be perma-banned. Just ask him. Whether or not I view that as fair is irrelevant and how he treats other members' posts relative to my own posts is also irrelevant: there is a clear bias against me because of things that happened in the past and that is my own fault. I don't get second chances like supposed new members do.

But, I will reply to all other off-topic comments via PM.


Edit - I used your real name out of habit, Focus. I was trying to do work and reply at the same time. I'll ask the mods to edit my post. I know we have had our differences in the past but I wouldn't do that on purpose unless you were okay with it. I sincerely apologize for that.

why do you think you know my name? i never mentioned it anywhere on this forum. why is this even being discussed? wtf are you on about?

this is becoming very awkward and uncomfortable.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
why do you think you know my name? i never mentioned it anywhere on this forum. why is this even being discussed? wtf are you on about?

this is becoming very awkward and uncomfortable.

Again, apologies. I reported that post and asked for that reference it to be removed. Even if that is not your name, I should not have used it. It was only out of habit because you and I talk in instant message all the time. It was wrong of me to do so even if it was unintentional. Let's move on, back on topic: I derailed the thread enough with you guys. I only responded to your post publicly instead if in PM because it comes off as douchy for me to use your real name. I tried to go back and edit the post but I was past the mark by less than a minute.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Again, apologies. I reported that post and asked for that reference it to be removed. Even if that is not your name, I should not have used it. It was only out of habit because you and I talk in instant message all the time. It was wrong of me to do so even if it was unintentional. Let's move on, back on topic: I derailed the thread enough with you guys. I only responded to your post publicly instead if in PM because it comes off as douchy for me to use your real name. I tried to go back and edit the post but I was past the market by less than a minute.

but...you....i....omg this has gotten creepy. if you need a name, call me charlie. its not really my name but this means way too much to you, so call me charlie. can we please move on?

And as Ive told you before, DDM, you can stay out of my PM box, thank you. Im not interested.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And as Ive told you before, DDM, you can stay out of my PM box, thank you. Im not interested.

Kinky

@dadudemon
They're trolling the shit out of you, bud. I respect the fact that you're still trying to keep the discussion on topic, but it's simply not going to happen at this point... That much was clear a few pages ago.

Let it go.

Originally posted by Galan007
@dadudemon
They're trolling the shit out of you, bud. I respect the fact that you're still trying to keep the discussion on topic, but it's simply not going to happen at this point... That much was clear a few pages ago.

Let it go.

Will do and done. I appreciate the feedback. Maybe I should listen to you more often...

Originally posted by dadudemon
Maybe I should listen to you more often... http://www.gabeswebsite.com/images/reaction/yes_jack_nicholson.gif

Oh for heaven's sake...

First of all, everyone let this go- this has gone beyond any semblance of reason.

Secondly- Galan, your contribution there is very much unwelcome. There was no trolling there, and hence your accusation in that area is bashing. If there WAS trolling, that sort of post would still be unwelcome as it only inflames. If you think people are trolling, report it, and that's all.

Thirdly, if anyone is trolling, it's dadude for demanding a canon citation of oiher people's speculation that it may have been a battlefield promotion. That's a possibility, which cannot be provided or denied any more than the alternative that Vader just liked Needa's style at the time. No-one was saying it was definite, just possible, so asking for a canon source for that is ridiculous.

Fourthly- dadude, it's not bias against you if your situation is simply the result of your own unacceptable behaviour. You bringing yourself to the verge of being banned before was entirely your own fault. If you keep behaving like this, I'll have to start giving you warnings and possibly bans for that behaviour as well. Your whining about not getting second chances is particularly feeble when I look at the amount of warnings you have received from various mods before. You're on about your twelfth chance, and that's only counting things that were serious enough to go writing on your record, unlike things like your silly behaviour in this thread which I have only noted in my head. You've had chance after chance after chance, but I suppose you don't like the facts getting in the way of your silly martyrdom complex. In any case, refrain from posting about your imaginary victimisation from the mods in future. That sort of post is never appropriate.

However- to the rest of you, there's a point where bashing your head up against a brick wall like this does no good. In the end, this became more about carrying on a personal argument than contributing anything useful to the thread. When things spiral out like that in future, please just stop posting in the thread, lest it die off like this one.

Speaking of which, I think this thread has been effectively killed off, so closed.