WHY the Emperor saves Anakin

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jedijunky1138
Not sure if this is worthy of a new post or not. I just wanted to know what you people thought the Emperor saved Anakin? The only reason I can think of is because there is no one to take his place. You know "Always Two There Are, Never More, Never Less."

Morridini
What incident are u talking about?
When did the Emperor save Anikin? U mean when he fell into the lava?

Jedi Priestess
I think that Palpatine recognizes the amount of power and potential Anakin possesses. He is a definite threat, therefore he needs to make him an ally.

jedijunky1138
Yes. The emperor doesn't really need Anakin anymore except to carry on an old tradition started by Darth Bane.

jedijunky1138
But why not just let him die JP? Then he would not be a threat.

Member.
Yea, the emporer does say he thinks anakin will be the "greatest jedi of all, even more powerful than master yoda."

Jedi Priestess
because I think by then Palpatine has realised that he can get further WITH anakin than without.

Member.
and he needs another apprentice.

jedijunky1138
Possibly, but who would he have as a back up? The sith are also on then verge of extintion. With no one Force Strong to Train in the dark arts how can they survive?

jedijunky1138
Thats my point!

Member.
well, when the sith was thought to be wiped out some thousand yrs ago, they survived by master/apprentice didn't they? it shouldn't be any different here. the sith are sneaky li'l buggers, they can survive armageddon.

anyway, i don't think palp had any backups, he focused on anakin entirely. and if anakin failed, he could've just swooped some baby outta the jedi temple and train him/her.

jedijunky1138
Yes that is true and the point of my original post.

Member.
lol, i started my post b4 u posted urs so it got kinda weird there.

jedi90
how could palp do that when anakin and the clone troopers supposibly go and destroy the jedi temple and students. palp saving anakin after his fall might be just as simple as them being friends.

PVS
it does make you think.
palpatine knows anakin is the chosen one,
and the chosen is prophesised to kill him and bring balance...

so why did he not kill him right there?
anakin will probably be desenseless...hmmm

and he would have taken over even without anakin

jedijunky1138
Kind of a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't huh?

Member.
palp probably noticed the fear and stuff inside ani, that's why he went for him...and cuz ani's special.

PVS
well, more like blessed if he does,
damned if he doesnt.

the stage was already set for palps to take over.
why would he want a sith apprecntice who is more
powerful than him? i understand "if you cant beat em' join 'em"
but he could have easily killed anakin at that moment.

the only thing i can think of is that jedi are left alive when
mech vader is born. what other purpose would vader serve
to palps, other than finish hunting down the jedi?
but would that mean that ep3 ends with jedi still alive?
i know i jump to a conclusion....but i cant figure out an
alternative......anyone?

jedijunky1138
But if he knew he was destined to kill him.........

Member.
ani was angry and hateful when he turned mech, u can't expect someone to be rational and know their destiny when they're that.

PVS
but the point is the prophecy stands.
surely palpatine knows of it, and knows ani is the chosen one.
surely he realized that there is at least a DISTINCT possability
that he would be killed by ani. just seems that unless vader still
served a purpose, he should have been killed.
the emporer is easily threatened, thus the hiding of luke and leah.

just seems weird to me...
thats why the whole 'prophecy' thing always bugged me

Cipher
Palpatine knows how to twist someone to the dark side, and once they're there, how to make them do his bidding. Bringing the most powerful Jedi under his control gives him the best enforcer he could have. Vader hunts down any remaining Jedi they can find and later on, he enforces Palpatine's will.

jedi90
i'm telling you guys, i still think its as simple as them being friends. like some of you have said, palp was taking over with or without anakin. why save anakin, he didn't try to do it for maul. he could have found other apprentices outside of the jedi just like maul. so why go to the great extent of saving an apprentice who has failed you and rebuilding him less than what he was. palp calls vader old friend throughout the OT. they have developed a relationship in the PT that GL has done a poor job illustrating but its there. the prophecy never said anakin was destined to kill palp just bring balance however that may be.

jedijunky1138
No. I mean if the Emperor knew what Anakins destiny was to kill HIM.

Cipher
How could he know that? I doubt the prophecy says the Chosen One will kill some guy named Palpatine...... Its something about balancing the Force.
I don't think Palpatine was friends with anyone, honestly. He had just invested a lot time manipulating Anakin's mind over the years. And really there wasn't anyway to save a guy cut in half and dropped down a bottomless pit.....

jedijunky1138
Yoda's statement "difficult to see the future is." I think says it all. Difficult but not imposible. Don't you think the emperor could see that Vader would be the one to kill him?

PVS
to bring balance means to kill the sith.
palps sets the force off balance, and he knows it...and loves it big grin

surely he must be able to deduct that he must be slain for balance to
be restored.

Cipher
Its possible that if Palpatine thought there was a chance that Anakin might stop him, then that's why he bent him to his will. Furthermore, that might be why he kept Vader away from his location, just in case.....
Once Luke is trained, Palpatine manipulates him into appearing before him and Vader. I guess he planned for them to fight to the death and Luke would be his new go-to guy.

jedijunky1138
That could very well be true Cipher. Good point.

jedi90
yeah, but he saves a guy who loses half his limbs and is dropped in a lava pit. just because he is evil doen't mean he doesn't have friends. anakin seems to be very special to him. palp been mentoring to him since childhood.

PVS
if you use the term 'friends' VERY loosely...perhaps

DARK ASSASSIN
yeah plapy def. knew what was going on the whole time, he thought of ani as an opportunity rather than a threat. of course if ani did stay a jedi than it would be a threat to him obviously but he prolly knew that ani had a big ego that would turn him to evil.

jedijunky1138
I still think the only reason Palps saved Anakin is because he was his only choice to carry on the sith religion. At this point the jedi were all aware of Palp and thefact still remains that there weren't that many jedi left anyway.

Cipher
Saving Anakin was Palpatine's way of salvaging his original plan for the young Jedi. He could still be a Sith Lord despite his injuries.......

If it turns out that Anakin's survival is tied into Palpatine's after that point, then maybe that was supposed to be the insurance plan against the prophecy....

jedijunky1138
The truth of the matter is that we probably will never know the real answer here. This point will doubtfully make it to the screen.


Its fun to debate though isn't it?

GO GEORGE BUSH!

DARK ASSASSIN
Jorge Bushe

jedijunky1138
???????

DARK ASSASSIN
.....is actually one of my friend's name, he's cuban

jedijunky1138
LOL

mephistodesigns
NICE SIG PVS!!!! that was a pathetic moment for even him

but I agree with cipher, that's the whole reason Palpatine wanted him. He is the Chosen One. Surely he heard rumors of it. And even if he didn't, he knows what he did in the Battle of Naboo. Palpatine can sense how strongly the Force is with Anakin. Any jedi that's that powerful would be much more useful as an ally than an enemy. And if Palp does know about the prophecy, that doesn't mean he knows entirely what it means. It doesn't seem like the Jedi fully understand it either. They didn't even believe the Sith were still around at the time of TPM, so if they think the prophecy means 'a Jedi will destroy the Sith, thus bringing the force into balance', wouldn't they scoff at the very mention of the prophecy? In my thinking, Palp knows the boy is special, one way or another, knows Anakin has the makings of a Sith based on his flaws as a Jedi (being trained too late, wanting to control things, no patience...that sort of thing) and based on how powerful the Force is with him. So Palp gives Ani a sympathetic ear throughout the years, subtlely molding the boy, warping his views ever so slightly, more and more with each year, until finally, in ROTS, he'll have the means to push him over completely because he's helped get Anakin to that breaking point.

mephistodesigns
And Vader, even after the accident, is still VERY powerful. Why do you think he was able to hunt down and kill many of the remaining Jedi between ROTS and ANH? Because he's insanely powerful. And once the bulk of the Jedi are dead after events in ROTS, as far as Palpatine knows, there aren't many people who could oppose them. There are absolutely no non-force users who could beat Vader. It's just not gonna happen. I think many people assume that because we don't see him move much in the fights of the OT, that he simply can't. If that were the case, Luke would have beat him. Vader moved as much as he needed to get the job done he set out to do. It is the smarter fighter who doesn't waste a lot of movement and energy. He was pretty fast when he finally got pissed at Luke towards the end of the duel in ESB, when Luke steps into the hallway and Vader slices down from the darkness, nearly cleaving Luke in two. He goes at Luke as hard and fast as he needed to in order to beat him, but not kill him. He was trying to turn him to the dark side of the force. Not kill him. And in ANH, Obi-wan wasn't very fast, which meant Vader didn't have to go very fast either. That's why I wish Lucas would show Vader actually fight in his prime. I think it would be very impressive.

PVS
then how do you explain the royal b*tch slapping luke gave vader in ep6?
luke was powerful, but with very limited training. vader was not holding back in the end, he just got his a$$ handed to him.

mephistodesigns
because Luke touched the Dark Side slightly, giving him a burst of power, he took Vader by surprise and beat him down because he's the hero of the story and that's what hero's do.

PVS
"That's why I wish Lucas would show Vader actually fight in his prime. I think it would be very impressive."

was vader in his prime at that moment or not?
thats why i bring the point up.
luke was tapping, but he still had no experience and was sloppy.
he backed vader into a corner and spanked him.

i highly doubt vader was holding back then.
and yes, he was surprised, but thats no excuse for him to
go down like that. he was TRYING to piss luke off,
so he couldnt have been THAT surprised when luke attacked.

mephistodesigns
hmmm. good point. Another plot hole perhaps? Simply put, either he's weakened or he's not. If he is, then why did the emperor keep him? And how could he kill all those jedi but not Luke when it came down to it? Maybe because Anakin couldn't kill Luke. Maybe he started to have a weak spot for his son, like in the scene after Luke is escorted off the AT-AT and speaks with Vader, Vader looks very pensive as they haul Luke off. Palpatine says your hate makes you powerful, maybe once Anakin looses a little of that hate, after sort of growing a soft spot for his son, he looses a bit of power? That could work with the interior logic of the Force in the films. I just really don't think he was that weakened by becoming Vader, unless loosing limbs, and with it cellular tissue, looses you some Midichlorians, and that weakened him. But I think Vader couldn't kill his own son when it finally came down to it.

PVS
my theory on vader and his hate/power is that
when he strikes down kenobi, his last grudge is satisfied.
there is no more need for revenge, no one left to hate.
perhaps kenobi knew that as well, and it was yet another
reason to sacrifice himself.

we have to remember that in ep6 vader is:
1-much older
2-more machine than man
3-not nearly as angry and vicious

all these things make him weaker.
had he been 100% man, aging would have
still taken its toll. "your powers are weak old man"
*said the pot to the kettle wink*

and i agree with you 100% that vader was incapable
of killing his son...but he could have still beaten him without
killing him, as in ESB. vader was just outgunned, whichever
way you look at it. luke was more powerful.

Sith Master X
lol I like the sig PVS.

PVS
thanks big grin doesnt kerry look like he wants to punch bush in the back of the head? laughing out loud

jedijunky1138
I actualy voted for the 87 billion.......before I voted against it.
Need I say more?LOL

PVS
ok ok, lets not have the old 'flip flop' debate in the ep3 forum laughing out loud

jedijunky1138
AGREED Happy Dance

Deep Hatred
Great posts all around !!!! It is indeed a good question why the Emperor bothers to save Anakin ! One thing is for sure, he does need an apprentice ! The Emperor may be powerful but he cannot live forever and in ROTJ, he looked rather old to say the least !!! Another reason I can think of is that he's convinced (as well as Yoda and Ben) that Vader cannot be turned back from the Dark Side, thus no danger there of him betraying him !!! He said so to Luke in that final movie and in the end he was wrong, however when Luke took his lightsaber and attacked the Emperor, Vader ignited his and blocked Luke's, making us wonder why would he do that if he wanted himself and Luke to take out the Emperor !!! The only thing I can think of is that he wants Luke to be turned to the Dark Side first and needs the Emperor's help to do so.
Another thing I was thinking of was that maybe Vader cannot kill the Emperor without himself dying and maybe both Vader and the Emperor know this !!! That would also make Vader's action more heroic in the end of Ep6, because he chooses to let go (his life) and to do whatever it takes to save Luke ! Hopefully Ep3 will give us more insight as to why the Emperor chooses to save Vader !

About the final Luke/Vader fight: Vader doesn't want to kill his son ! It may not sound like such a handicap, but it is !!! Vader can't release his anger and hatred at Luke, in fact, he may not be even have any towards his son !!! What bothers me about that fight is that Vader wasn't fighting as he would in an all out fight !!!

1) When Luke refused to fight him and threw away his lightsaber, Vader didn't ignite it and have 2 of them or didn't even destroy it, thus removing any chance of Luke getting his weapon back !!! Anakin in Ep2 did use 2 lightsabers !

2) Vader didn't use any force powers against his son !!! The only time we've seen 2 force users cancel each other out was 2 very skilled and of the same level force users ! It would be hard to believe that Luke has the same Force knowledge and power as Vader, being trained so little !!! An example to show that Vader is above luke's force levels is that in Ep5, he deflected all of Han's blaster shots with his hands, however Luke deflected all blaster shots in Ep 6 with his lightsaber, like all Jedi did before him !!! And if anybody thinks that the reason that Vader can block them is because he has mechanical hands, they should realise that Luke has a right mechanical hand and should be able to block with that one if that was the case !!!!

3) This is rather reaching and probably just a poor choreography in the fight, however when Luke attacks Vader in the final fight sequence, you'll notice that right before Vader places himself on the ground, Luke swings really hard and misses, exposing himself quite nicely for a killing blow by Vader, however Vader at that moment just goes down on his own and doesn't use the advantage !!!

Also, Vader is no longer at his peak in episode 6, he is old and more machine than man and Lucas has stated that he's not what he once was and could have been, however it's very hard to believe that Luke can beat his father in an all-out brawl !!!

PVS
excellant point. vader wanted to still rule the galaxy with his son, not just kill palps. had luke struck palps down, he would have remained himself, it was luke's duty as a jedi to strike him down. vader wanted to keep his power and stay with the dark side, so he needed luke to turn first.



he released his anger at luke on the walkway at bespin, severing luke's hand. vader knew that if he unleashed his anger again, he may kill luke, and thus kill his grand scheme. so there was ulterior motives besides simply not wanting to kill his son.



um....when luke threw the saber away, vader was substantially f***'d up. he only had one hand and his iron lung was malfunctioning. the fight was over at that point.



he force-threw his lightsaber, i doubt that was just a frizbee throw.



this is interesting....perhaps we will see anakin/vader pull off the same trick in ep3. maybe when he kills the federation leaders. i can picture the nemoidian guards shooting at him, and he is just so damn powerful with the force that he can block with his hand. i like the idea



i wouldnt look too deep into that. the fights in the OT were not so well choreographed as in the PT. probably just a result of clumsyness and lack of training (actor training, not jedi training stick out tongue)



believe it. luke is the son of the chosen one. a 100% human young anakin would have wiped the floor with luke, no doubt. but vader is old, mechanical, and since killing kenobi he has lost his evil edge.

captainmidnight
could it be possible that palpatine doesnt believe in the prophecy,if he did believe in it he would of let anakin die,its kind of a cool theory becouse by not believing in the prophecy made it come true in palpatines case. if he let anakin die the force never would have been brought back into balance.......

Deep Hatred
Correct me if I'm wrong PVS, but didn't Luke throw his lightsaber at Vader when he told him he wouldn't fight him in Return ? That's the scene I was talking about ! As for Vader using anger, I agree that he did use very little of it to end the fight when he received the glancing blow from Luke in Empire ! While Vader did use the Force to throw his lightsaber at him in Jedi, he didn't really use the Force very much in that fight, such as force push, maybe to throw some objects, maybe attempt a force choke etc Luke's advantage in that fight was that he knew that Vader wouldn't kill him and that there was conflict within vader between good and evil ! He counted on that fact till the very end, when he pleaded for his father to save him !!! Luke to me was a true Jedi and was able to resist the Dark Side where Anakin could not ! It will be very interesting to see what parallels Lucas will have in Episode 3 where Anakin will choose differently from Luke !!!

I also agree that it's just the choreography that was poor and I know I was reaching with that point, but it's fun to see that opening when you look at Jedi !!! lol I also agree that Vader has lost his evil edge after Kenobi's death !!!

PVS
luke never threw his saber until he said
"never. ill never turn to the darkside. you failed your highness. i am a jedi, like my father before me" that was after he whooped vader.
vader had one hand missing and a broken lung at that point.

at no other point did the saber leave lukes hand in the emporer's chamber. once he snatched it from the emporer, it stayed in his possession till he tossed it away.

watch it again

mephistodesigns
pvs is right. vader threw a saber at luke at one point, not the other way around.

Deep Hatred
Sorry about that !!! You guys are right ! lol I don't know why I thought that Luke had thrown his saber at his father... Luke gave Vader a whooping in that fight !!!

wingless_angel
hes powerful....

hes full of hate...

he proably kills Windu....

He become sthe Emperors Hand

jedijunky1138
The emperors hands work behind the scenes not in public. Vader was just his go to guy.

Sith Master X
True, but Sidious took advantage of Anakin's hatred, and used that in turning him to the dark side. I can't wait to see how that all unfolds.

PVS
he wasnt even that.
when i really think of it...vader doesnt do much in the OT
in regards to helping out the emporer. the stormtroopers are sent
to do all the dirty work, and whenever vader gets off his ass, its
to go after his son as per his own agenda.

the only service i see him perform for the empire is:

-fighting in his tiefughter in ep4
-repremanding/killing imperial officers
-......i cant think of thing else.....anyone?

and as i said, as for vader's puruit of luke in ESB, that
was for selfish reasons, not just a matter of doing his part.

captainmidnight
mabey once he found out about luke he began to think of the past,and mabey how wrong he was for turning against obi-wan, kids will do that to ya!!!!

PVS
i dont think he was quite so regretful,
but he wasnt quite as motivated to perform
'for the good of the empire' as he was in ep4.
he was doing what was good for vader.

jedijunky1138
Vader was in-fact instrumental in overseeing the construction of the second DS.

PVS
oh please! all he did was threaten the commanding officer.

which falls under-repremanding/killing imperial officers

captainmidnight
yeah your right my idea was kinda dumb!!!!!

PVS
stick out tongue

captainmidnight
i still think that palpatine knows of,but doesnt believe the prophecy, i think the only reason he saves him is becouse he can sustain his power through anakin.....

Sith Master X
Or perhaps he simply just wanted him as another powerful ally. smile

captainmidnight
exactly!!!!!

mephistodesigns
As PVS pointed out, he doesn't do a lot for the "good of the empire" in the OT. I think once he's hunted down all the jedi that could threaten the empire, he wasn't really useful. The empire became almost autonomous after the Senate was disbanded. All Vader had was his desire to overthrow the Emperor in classical Sith fashion. I think that's what the Emperor wanted him for, to kill the Jedi. He knew once Anakin reached his full potential no one could oppose him. After that, Palpatine essentially owned the galaxy. He effectively destroyed the jedi through his own planning and Anakin's actions. And I think Palpatine just figured it was better to have the chosen one working FOR you instead of against you. Unfortunately for Anakin, he sort of becomes obsolete. And by that point, the only reason Palpatine needed an apprentice is because of the rules of the Sith. He really didnt' NEED one other than that.

captainmidnight
the empire autonomous, they control the galaxy, how can they be autonomous?

mephistodesigns
do you know what autonomous means? it means that all the little cogs in the machine, like the officers on down, have pretty much everything under control and don't need Vader to tell them what to do. They know how to do things, they have a pretty good grip on the galaxy. Just like how your body remembers to breathe and pump blood, the empire functions on its own, vader need not interfere.

Red Superfly
Darth Vader: "Master, I was wonderring, why did you save me?"

Emperor: "I dunno, seemed like a cool thing to do at the time. And you looked so adorable, I thought I'd take you home and keep you on my mantle piece. Then you twitched, and started groaning, and I couldn't be having that in the lounge, so I turned you into a dark almost invincible robot warrior man"

Vader: "Oh, cool."

Jedi Priestess
Im thinking red fancies himself a commedian

Red Superfly
That, that's libel, I sue you.

captainmidnight
dont buy it for a second.....sure the DS was able to function by "THE OFFICERS ON DOWN" and tarkin,i dont know,might have been the eyes for the emperor,but vader does serve a purpose and it is to inforce when force is needed,vader was instrumental to the creation of the DS becouse he was the overlooker,and if you had vader breathing down your neck, your not having a good day,so to avoid this everyone did as they were told!!!!!

PVS
but you just answered it captain.
vader "breathed down their neck" and thats all he did.
he organised nothing. he commanded no one. all he
was was an intimidating presence. your making it like he
got his hands dirty, he didnt.

mephistodesigns
exactly. Did Anakin design the Death Star? No. Does he coordinate attacks? Its seems like he should and might, but does he? No. In ANH he sends a commander down to Tatooine to look for the plans. Why was he looking for the plans? because the empreror sent him to. Vader doesn't command in ESB either, General Veers' and his troops defeat the rebels at Hoth. All Vader does is search for Luke. The rest of the Empire would go on if Vader was to die and everything else remained the same. That is the very definition of autonomous. That something would continue functioning exactly as it does now, as it would if you were gone. THAT is autonomous, whether you buy it or not is irrelevant. Its a clear example of the concept.

mephistodesigns
Once Vader finishs hunting down the jedi after ROTS, he's made himself obsolete. The regular troops fight all the battles. Imperial commanders command the troops. The Generals and Admirals command the cmmanders. The Grand Moff's (governors) command the generals and admirals. And the Grand Moff's answer to the Emperor, which probably isn't often needed. At least the Emperor strategises. He comes up with plans. He sets traps for the rebellion. He's the head of the galaxy. Vader is in command of his ship the Executor and that's it. As I said, he's obsolete. No one can defeat him in combat, and no one would try. So what else is he good for now that he's beaten all the enemies that only he is capable of defeating? Ever wonder why he was so eager to get into the dog fights at the battle of Yavin? because he's friggin' bored and he's a great pilot and we all know how Anakin hates to have his abilities go to waste. Its almost as if the Emperor simply gives him busy work. The rest of the Empire would probably throw a party if Vader died.

Sith Master X
That's a pretty good point.

captainmidnight
how did i make it sound like he got his hands dirty, all i was kinda trying to say is that sure he didnt desighn or help build the DS,but it got done,and why .....becouse vader was there to keep them in line, i'm not trying to persuade anybody to my way of seeing things, but i just think for this situation alone vader was contributing to the construction of the DS, he was using the only TOOL he could......FORCE!!!!!

mephistodesigns
vader didn't keep anyone in line, Tarkin did. It was his baby, he even told Vader to not choke an officer to death, and that's like taking a child's new toy at christmas. Its just not cool. Vader was just there hanging out. He reported what he new of the plans. It just showed he was close to the Emperor. he still didn't command anything. He took off on his own to deal with kenobi, yeah, he's really into commanding the empire... roll eyes (sarcastic)

captainmidnight
but some people like to be choked,they just do,mabey tarkin was jealous that he wasnt being choked? ya never know!!!!

mephistodesigns
blink

mephistodesigns
I think the fact that Anakin becomes obsolete is a part of the story, part of his personal growth or lack of. The irony of Anakin's life is that he's always in a rush to gain power/status so that he can better use his advanced abilities, only to gain ultimate power/status and not have any real use for it. He wants to be a knight fast. He wants to be on the council (apparently). He wants to stop people from dying. He wants to do all these things, and when he finally gets to a point where he reaches his full potential (power-wise), its useless to him because everyone that ever mattered to him is dead. He destroyed everything he originally wanted to protect and became the very thing he hated since his days as a young slave - a bully. He was so blinded by his need for power that he forgot why he wanted it in the first place - to end suffering and put his abilities to good use for the republic, for his wife, and for his friends.

By the time he realizes everything he really wanted to fight for has been destroyed, all that stands in its place is the Empire, a twisted former Republic; much as he is a twisted former jedi. And now he has no real place in the galaxy. Even the Emperor, the one person he thought was behind him all the way, was trying to get rid of him by trying to get Luke as a replacement ("take your father's place at my side"wink. He's completely alone with nothing but the memories of what he was, and how he almost single handedly destroyed it all.

Cipher
mephistodesigns, that is as good a summation of Anakin's character as I've ever seen......

Nice work. thumb up

PVS
yeah, even the enemy knows vader's roll

"governor tarkin, should have expected to find you holding vader's leash"

its no secret that vader has become obsolete.
sure, he is the most feared man in the galaxy besides the emporer,
but his usefulness has long since expired.

when i see his command ship, i think its a perfect symbol for vader. think of it, what is the purpose of a command ship, besides simply being a glorified presence. the resources required to build one could have been used to build a fleet of star destroyers, far more effective in a war.
the only reason for it's existance is so the emporer can look out the window of his throne room and say "oooo my ships are so big" as the only reason to keep vader alive is so he can say "i own the chosen one".

vader and the executor, mere props to feed palps' ego.

jedijunky1138
The Question still hasn't been answered. WHY does he save Anakin? He could have just let him die in the lava. I think he needed Anakin to carry on the traditions of the sith. ALWAYS TWO THERE ARE..... Without Anakin he would not have an aprentace. In a way that would almost mean that Sidious was no longer a sith and more a mad man out to rule the univers by himself.

mephistodesigns
I think it has. Palpatine saved Anakin because he needed someone who could hunt down the Jedi. Palp has everything else on lock. But hunting down the Jedi wasn't something he was in tip top shape to be doing, at least not when you could, as PVS put it, "own the chosen one". All other attempts at killing jedi have failed. Maul Dead. Dooku, dead. Grievous, dead. He's tried everything else, until he could get his hands on The Chosen One. Anakin, once bad, is far more powerful than most (probably all, but I haven't seen ROTS yet, so I don't want to jump to conclusions) of the other jedi. Palpatine knows it. He feels the waves of the force around Anakin, same as the Jedi. To own the champion of the Jedi, the living personification of their prophecy, is beneficial not only for his power, but to, again, rub defeat in the Jedi's faces. Then he needs Anakin to hunt down and kill the Jedi. Which he's obviously very good at since we didn't see any Jedi making any moves against the Empire other than Obi and Yoda. And I think Palpatine LIKES that Anakin is now obsolete. Remember, the sith masters don't like their apprentices getting TOO powerful because then they might be overthrown. If he were too command too much of the fleet, he may use it to overthrow Palpatine. So he needs Anakin to initially help him squash some remnants of the Republic, and then he can just sort of "hang out" if you will. So in short, Palpatine needs him for a symbol, a reminder to the Jedi that they've lost, and in the years to come, a symbol to keep the officers in line. Akin to telling kids a monster will come and get them if they're bad. He needs him to wipe out the remaining Jedi. Which he does very effectively. He did have a purpose at the time Palpatine saved him, at that point he is still VERY useful. The sad part is that he becomes obsolete, and Palpatine probably enjoys that because now members of the Empire fear him, but aren't loyal to him. They won't be following him on any mutinies to kill the Emperor in a fit of Sith succession. That's why he saved him. He keeps him around to maintain the Sith order, and for the reasons I've listed before.

mephistodesigns
holy crap that was longer than I intended, sorry...

darktim1
palpatine said that he would be watching anakins life as went along so he was watching ever since anakin won the space battle.

mephistodesigns
Exactly. Any nine year old that can destroy, nearly single handedlly, a droid control ship, and you can sense how strong they are in the force, its not hard to figure out this kid might be an assest later on in life.

captainmidnight
oh come on...when anakin destroyed that trade fed thing it was a fluke,that situation had nothing to do with his force capabilities,it was luck...even GL said that

jedijunky1138
right! But Palps could have gone after the jedi with his clone army (which he will) and not have to worry about Anakin one day killing him. I agree that Vader is a more efficient Jedi killer but he already had control of the galaxy.

captainmidnight
but yeah palpatine did sense anakins abilities, but he only began to corrupt anakin when he(anakin) thought his abilities were way past the parr of the coucils expectations, what if the situation was reversed, the council pretty much givin in to anakins every wish, how would palpatine then corrupt anakin?

mephistodesigns
he probably couldn't. and that's the tragedy of the situation and Anakin's downfall.

Red Superfly
How is Vader obsolete?

He has more smarts than the stupid morons that command the Star Destroyers.

"That is it, the rebels are there" (about the Hoth probe droid reports) Only Vader knew this.

Vader is the one to say "Go here, NOW!" and "It's like THIS". He'd decisive, and is the only reason the Imperials get anything done, because all they do is argue. Vader, although twisted, is definitely wise.

Vader also commands the force. He keeps the officers in line, pressurises them into getting their job done. The ones that fail, are destroyed. THEY are obsolete, not Vader.

If Vader was not there, they would have just shrugged the Hoth base off

Who came up with capturring the Millenium Falcon by using the Bounty Hunters? Did it work? Yes. Not only did Vader orchestrate Luke's capture, but he also managed to catch the ship that almsot destroyed him, it's pilots, and re-captured the Princess.

Who came up with the idea of turning Luke to the Dark Side (which both Vader and the Emperor would benefit from, with Vader and Luke teaming up to overthrow the Emepror, while the Emperor wanted a new model)?

Vader is far from obsolete. Those who think the Emperor orchestrates everything are deluded. The Emperor's cunning obviously rubbed off on Vader over the years they were a "team", and it shows.

Vader was necessary, Vader did The Emperors dirty work while the Imperials did Vaders dirty work. Vader had the very IMPORTANT tasks of killing Obi-Wan, hunting down and turning his son. Only Vader could.

Red Superfly
What I'm saying is, if Vader wasn't there, HOW could the Empire still function?

There's no way in hell the Imperials would find them on Yavin (It was obviously Vader who came up with the tracking device "I'm taking an awful risk Vader, this had better work), and they'd just in general be a bumbling mess and the Rebels would soon defeat the Emperor without his right hand man.

Why do people think that by searching for his son, Vader is obsolete, or "bored"? That's plain wrong. It is in the Empires interest that anything concerning Jedi is Vader's department.

Also, The Emperor ain't "all that". He's the idiot that agreed to try and turn Luke to the dark side. It was a good idea for Vader, but as far as The Emperor goes, "his overconfidence was his weakness", and he ended up setting in motion his own downfall by agreeing with Vaders plan.

I still do not understand how Vader can be called obsolete.

jedijunky1138
Yea. Vader was actually instructed by the Emperor to find Luke. Vader was still the top dog in the OT (under Palps that is). I think that to function as a Sith Lord you must have an apprentice to help you do your dirty work. In every film so far Palps has had someone else do his dirty work. It would seem that Palps needs to concentrate his power on staying in control of the galaxy. If Palps had no help he would have to spend a lot of energy on all of the LITTLE THINGS that an apprentice should take care of. This would allow the galaxy to slip through his fingers.

Red Superfly
Yeah, BUT the Emperor wanted him dead. "We have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker.........must not become a Jedi".

Then Vader suggested "If he could be turned........."

But yeah, Vader keeps everything in check. Those that say Vader doesn't get his hands dirty are full of crap too, he's the only one that does any real fighting for the Sith cause!

mephistodesigns
when I said Vader was bored, I was talking about why he jumped in his TIE to help pick off ships. He needed some action. And Vader wanted Luke to turn him so they, together, could overthrow the Emperor. Again, he was doing it for himself. The Empire could function without Vader because there was a huge chain of command. If he wasn't there, the Empire would still sniff out the Rebels and defeat them. Vader was never directly instrumental in defeating the rebels, other than telling Tarkin to place a tracer on the Falcon. He's obsolete because he's not doing anything that's worthy of his skill. He's using about an eigth of his real abilities. That's why he's obsolete. I'm not saying he's useless, I'm saying he's easily replaced. Palpatine seems to pick apprentices for specific reasons, uses them up, and ditches them. Palp only wanted Luke to kill Vader and vice versa. And as far as his role in the Empire, there were obviously plenty of Moff's who were very good commanders who didn't need Vader around.

Red Superfly
Well in that sense you can say The Emperor is obsolete. He has all this power, and only uses about an eigth of it. The Emperor isn't always using his powers, so you could say he is wasted too. Sure he is a strategist and so on, but he is no more wasted than Vader is. Both are beyond their goals by Episode 4.

In fact, The Emperor is probably more obsolete. Vader was obviously planning to overthrow the Emperor someday, so his plans were still in motion, there were things he had not yet completed, and he was planning on doing everything he thought of, and was capable of it.

The Emperor, on the other hand, could dissapear - and The Empire would still function - Vader would gladly rise to the occassion.

As if a Moff would take up Emperor command - no way. If The Emperor was destroyed, Vader would be the most powerful being in The Empire - he would easily become leader.

Who, in their right mind would challenge Darth Vader, without the authority of The Emperor? No-one. An Emperor-less Empire would mean Vader would be virtually unchallenged for the position, any challenges would see them force choked.

The Moffs were just kidding themselves, they knew that without the Emperor, there would be nothing to keep Vader under a "glass ceiling" on their level. Without The Emperor, Vader would be king. The only reason why Tarkin had the balls to command Vader was because he was under The Emperors command. As if Vader would take orders from Tarkin without some sort of higher power "holding his leash".
Maybe that's why he wanted to overthrow The Emperor, to finally reach his full potential.
Sure, maybe Vader was renderred obsolete under The Emperors command - but it's obvious Vader was planning to change that, and the mere fact he had "bigger plans" in mind means that he was no where near obsolete after all.

jedijunky1138
I think Vader gets involved because he feels that he can't trust any of his underling to get the job done.

mephistodesigns
That's more the stituation. And yes, the Emperor could be considered obsolete except for one major difference between the Emperor and Vader, the Emperor wanted exactly what he got. He wanted to destroy the Jedi and rule the galaxy. He's not wasting his abilities because he's doing exactly what he wanted. Anakin got what he thought he wanted, but it wasn't what he set out to do. And now he's been used and has nothing to do that couldn't be handled by someone else.

PVS
Superfly, good point.

i think that it is because of vader's obsolete status that he finally seeks to take full power. before, he was happy to serve, he looked up to his master. palpatine would feed his ego, and give him assignments as he begins doing in ep2. sure vader wants power, but he also wants to be useful. when that usefulness is taken away, what reason does vader have to stay loyal to him?

proof of vader's uselessness? "go out to the command ship and await my orders" vader was just supposed to sit pretty on the executor for the entire end of RotJ. palpatine just sent him away during what was supposed to be one of the empire's finest hour.

the only thing that kept vader's usefullness alive was the prospect of turning luke. and the emporer plans to simply have luke kill vader.

palpatine is replacable as well, because vader could have done the same job, if not better. he is in tune with the force, so he can predict events just as palps can. he is widely known and feared and nobody dares question him, like palps.

in fact, i would even dare say that had luke become a sith, HE would have instantly become obsolete. what purpose would he then have? MAYBE if the rebels had survived the endor battle, he could have helped hunt them down, but palps was posative that the rebels would all be killed. so...what purpose would luke have served? what would his job be? he would just sit around bored with his only amusing thought being killing the emporer.

LUCASCHINBEARD
JESUS WHAT A C**T!

Xam
LUCASCHINBEARD who the hell are u?

PVS
its mrkphillps,
same childish ranting

Mist
somebody slap that guy

Cipher
The future emperor needed a new apprentice and since he'd been grooming
Anakin for the part for years, he thought- "Why not?".

km7232

mephistodesigns
so vader passes on messages for the emperor, and stands around to look menacing, because if he's mad, the emperor will be mad. Hmm. Seems like Vader is still just kinda useless. An errand boy rat. That's what that sounds like. Not the power Anakin craved for so long as a Jedi.

jedijunky1138
That is my original point and why I posted this thread. The fact that Palps had no other choice but to save Anakin is based on the Rule of Two. Sure he was grooming Anakin from the start to take over the part but when Anakin took his lava bath I think the Emperor would have just let him die if it werent for the fact that he had noone else to choose from.

jedijunky1138
That is what an apprentice does. Given the chance I'm sure Vader would have killed Palps and take over as Emperor. That in part tells why Vader wanted to find Luke and turn him. Vader was probably plotting against Palps from the beginning, but with the Rule of Two he needed an apprentice. Luke was HIS only choice.

Red Superfly
Yeah, but, Vader converted to the Sith - he should know there's always two, no more no less. He knew he would have to eventually overthrow the Emperor to progress. That plan was in motion........or was it? That's another question we should ask ourselves, and I think it started another thread somewhere.

But, the moral of the story is that Vader, no matter how strong the dark side made him, wasn't as strong as the bond between father and son, which ultimately wiped out the evil of the Sith in one fell swoop, redeeming Vader, and destroying the Emperor.

So was the ultimate power LOVE?

Isn't that something the Jedi and the Sith both kinda overlooked?

That's why Anakin is The Chosen One. He was destined to break the Jedi guidelines and feel love, to have an offspring, and only that bond between father and son would be the strength to defeat the Sith in the end.

It's like those stories you hear of babies trapped in cars, and the mother being able to somehow lift a car with impossible strangth, but it happens because of the emotion. The Jedi religion was never an advocate of such compassionate strength, and so was doomed to fight. Too peaceful, too passive, you need to fight fire with fire, you need to destroy in order to create - that's why Anakin was born.
Anakin DID defeat The Sith. Vader was required in order for his emotion to run free, to provide the power he needed to bring that balance.

unknown hero
...I always thought that the prophecy for the chosen one to bring balance to the force would mean that a very very strong sith would come along.

Because surely the Jedi have had it easy for a really long time (this is illustrated in what Yoda and Windu discuss in AOTC concerning telling the senate about their gradually weakening control of the force), so therefore the 'balance' has been in their favour for a really long time, no?

So presumably to bring balance to the force would be to give both Sith and Jedi an equal chance at survival. I don't think giving the Jedi the strongest force user ever would be very fair on the Sith. After all the Sith are just another 'religion' trying to get along in the world.

Feel free to berate me if this is just a bunch of misguided ramblings...

PVS
good point superfly, i think 'love conquers all' is the moral of the story (rotj that is). before vader is redeemed, he plans on corrupting his son and turning him to the darkside, he plans on killing him if he cant get him to turn, and up till that final moment he was pretty much evil...or was he?

the bottom line is that vader could not kill luke. as much as he talked of "he will join us or die" and "if you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny", vader could not do it. the very fact that he didnt kil luke at bespin shows that vader had good in him, as luke pointed out.

only in the end did he turn, when vader had but 2 choices: 1-let your son be killed 2-be redeemed and save your son. but that was the only moment where he did not have the option of keeping his power, he was not able to lie to himself and say "i'm doing it for the good of the empire"

but was a father's attachment to his son enough to kill the sith? what of a son's attachment to his father?

if luke was raised in typical jedi fashion, and never given a loving family, but instead spent his whole life being trained, would he have reached out to vader? would he feel the good in vader? would he make any connection at all?

luke was given a very similar childhood as anakin. he lived on tatooine, an isolated planet where all he had was his family, his friends, and his thoughts to keep him company. he was raised by loving parents who really didnt want him to go off and be a jedi (shmi allowed anakin to chose, but you can tell she didnt want him to be in a dangerous profession) most importantly, luke learned the pain of losing his family in a tragedy, as anakin did.

so, i think the big question is: why was luke alowed to be raised as a commoner? why was he not taken to dagoba to be trained as a jedi by yoda? why was owen and beru given custody of luke, so he could be raised in the very place his grandmother was buried?

were ben and yoda leaving a certain option for the future open?

PVS
the nature of the sith is to consume everything within its grasp, and control the galaxy, extinguishing all that is good.

the jedi are simply keepers of the piece, but they do not have the power to extinguish evil. there is still evil regardless of whether or not the sith exists, so there is a balance between good and evil.

with the sith, there is only evil

so to have the sith survive would not be balance. its about good and evil, not two religions

unknown hero
Why are the Sith evil? Surely the Jedi are equally evil for keeping the Sith at bay for so long. Maybe the SIth would never have been evil in the first place if the Jedi had not quashed their particular spin on usage of the force?

Surely to have a balance their must be equal measure of 'good' and 'evil'? If there were no evil then their would be no good. Good can only be measured as good if there is an opposite, in this case evil, to compare it to, no?

PVS
laughing out loud dude, star wars is an old fashion fantasy. the good guys are good, the bad guys are evil. there is no room for political correctness here.

you are confusing religions with the very topic of good and evil.
the sith consume the galaxy and kill all the jedi. they turn everything to evil.
the jedi only keep the peace. they dont impose 'good', just a lack of war.
without the sith, there is still mob bosses, there is still slavery, and everything else that is evil.

to make it simple:

-without the sith there is still evil
-with the sith there is no good

the sith cannot be allowed to exist if there is to be balance, its that simple

unknown hero
Fair point. I was kinda giving this the whole political thing, which is bs cause I don't know jack about politics...lol.

Maybe I just always liked the idea of being a Sith rather than a Jedi. You have to admit the Sith are way cooler, however evil they may be...

unknown hero
Sneaking around slaughtering 'hero's' sounds like soooo much more fun than "settling border disputes" etc etc...lol

Red Superfly
I love that idea PVS, about Luke being left to grow up without a Jedi upbringing ON PURPOSE.

Maybe Ben and Yoda knew that "just another Jedi" would not be a match for Vader.

They realised Vaders power stemmed from Anakins emotion, his love. Therefore, they knew in order to defeat Vader, they needed Vader's equal, someone who was just as gifted but someone who was inherently potentially the same "blank canvas" Anakin was before they screwed up.

They knew Luke needed to be left alone, to grow attached, and in some instances, to suffer, in ways that Jedi are never normally taught. They knew he couldn't lead a shelterred life, he needed to be strong, being a farmer on Tatooine is as hard working as they come.

Ben also knew his mistakes with Anakin. Notice how much more tolerant Obi-Wan is with Luke comparred to Anakin. It's impressive to see Obi-Wan go from intolerant head strong youth into a wise, forgiving master. It's clear that his failure with Anakin leads to his stronger bond with Luke.

Maybe Ben and Yoda knew that Luke would be the key to turn Anakin back to the good side.

They knew Luke would have to become attached, in order to feel compassion for his father.

It's mental, it hurts my head, but it's so cool.

jedijunky1138
The Sith WERE originally GOOD. They were a society from some unknown planet (unknown to me that is). They learned to use the force (for good originally) and eventually became corrupt. The jedi came along and tried to wright a wrong. that is when the struggle began.

jedijunky1138
An ancient order of Force-practitioners devoted to the dark side and determined to destroy the Jedi, the Sith were a menace long thought extinct. The current incarnation of the Sith is the result of a rogue Jedi dissident from the order. Two thousand years ago, this Jedi had come to the understanding that the true power of the Force lay not through contemplation and passivity. Only by tapping its dark side could its true potential be gained. The Jedi Council at the time balked at this new direction. The Dark Jedi was outcast, but he eventually gained followers to his new order. Awakening beliefs from the dark past, the new Sith cult continued to grow. With the promise of new powers attainable by tapping into the hateful energies of the dark side, it was only a matter of time before the order self-destructed. Internecine struggle by power-hungry Sith practioners dwindled their numbers.

The Sith can find its roots further back in the galaxy's ancient past. Long before the Republic rose, there lived a culture on the planet Korriban. These primitive people were called the Sith, and the Force flowed strongly through their bloodlines. Although they didn't practice the Force as the Jedi would, they were talented in their own brand of magic.

In the early days of the Jedi, a great schism tore the order apart. Jedi who had tapped the forbidden power of the Force's dark side rebelled against their light-sided brothers. After a terrible war, the Dark Jedi were exiled from the Republic. Past the Republic's growing borders, these castaways discovered Korriban and the Sith people.

Powerful with the dark side, the Jedi outcasts set themselves up as gods on Korriban. The primitive Sith worshipped them as their lords, and so the Jedi grew, and built temples and monuments to celebrate their power. Millennia of interbreeding blurred the distinction between Sith native and offworlder, and the term Sith came to encompass not only the indigenous people of Korriban, but also the powerful overlords that ruled them.

Five thousand years ago, during the Sith Empire's golden age, a Republic explorer vessel stumbled upon the secluded worlds of the Sith. One Sith Lord, Naga Sadow, saw this as an opportunity to invade the Republic, and exact vengeance on the Jedi who had banished them. History would record the invasion that followed as the Great Hyperspace War, and it would be the first of many terrible conflicts between Jedi and Sith.

Time and again the Sith and Jedi would clash, with devastated worlds lying in their wake. The last great conflict took place on the scarred plains of Ruusan. The Sith Lord Kaan and his Brotherhood of Darkness did battle with the Jedi Army of Light.

From this onslaught, one Sith escaped: Darth Bane. It was he who would resurrect the order with duplicity and secrecy in mind. Darth Bane restructured the cult, so that there could only be two -- no more, no less -- a master, and an apprentice. Bane adopted cunning, subterfuge, and stealth as the fundamental tenets of the Sith order. Bane took an apprentice. When that apprentice succeeded him, that new Sith Lord would take an apprentice.

Thus, the Sith quietly continued for centuries, until the time of Darth Sidious and his apprentice, Darth Maul. By that time, the galaxy at large had believed the Sith to be extinct, a fabled threat from the past. Qui-Gon Jinn's report of a Sith attack on Tatooine was met by the Jedi Council with hesitation and skepticism. Surely if the Sith had returned, the Jedi would have detected it, they reasoned.

The dark side, for all its power, is ultimately hard to detect when required. A shadowy master like Darth Sidious was able to keep his presence a secret, even when sharing a world with the Jedi Temple.

With the death of Darth Maul at Naboo, the Jedi Council realized that the Sith menace was true. What they hadn't puzzled was whether Maul was the master, or the apprentice. Years would pass before the Sith menace arose once more, a menace that would eventually come to engulf the entire galaxy.

PVS
what baffles me about that is this:

if the 'law of duplicity' was the method by which the sith remained unnoticed...then how did yoda know of this rule?

jedijunky1138
sith holocron

Red Superfly
Ha Korriban, that's the one, it's where the Sith Academy is in the Knights Of The Old Republic game.

mephistodesigns
superfly, I like you're point earlier about the love, a forbidden law of jedi, being what redeemed Anakin. But why did you quote my thing about Anakin being useless to the Empire? That had nothing to do with whether or not Anakin was useless to the Empire, and everything about how he was useful to the Jedi. But that was an ironic point, the thing they forbade (is that even a word?) anakin to take part in, became his salvation from the sith.

What I find really interesting to ask yourself is this: if Anakin had remained good, would the Empire have ever been defeated? I say no because knowing Anakin, he's sign up for some strike team against the Sith, die because he hasn't reached his full potential yet, or die in the purge. His kids would be discovered and killed and more importantly, he wouldn't be around to kill Palpatine. Anakin going bad, in the end, saved the galaxy. And not only that, building on Superfly's idea, his son goes on to form a new and more improved Jedi Order that isn't so puritanical about relationships.

km7232

guiro72
mephisto, you make some good points.....a lot was also made of qui gonn's rebelliousness, and i hope this is brought up to become some kind of thread in the new film....it feels like territory that wasn't completely explored in ep I, hinting at something more to come perhaps....

many people say that part of bringing balance to the force is also about waking the jedi up from their lazy complacency and sloppiness as well....

the emperor saves anakin because he is one of the most powerfull beings in the galaxy, packed to the hilt with midichlorians, already trained by the jedi and warped to sith by him....there are no jedi left to turn, how hard and time consuming would it be to find a worthy new apprentice and train him from the ground up?.....obvious choice, and if it doesn't work he's no worse off for trying....

Red Superfly
Maybe when Anakin falls in the lava, Palpatine thinks:

"oh crap, there goes my apprentice, all the others are dead, what an idiot I am. Oh hang on, Obi-Wans pretty bad-ass, hmmmmm...."

*As Obi-Wan is looking down at his fallen apprentice, he feels a tap on the shoulder, and turns around to see Palpatine with a huge grin on his face"

Palpatine: "Hi, I liked how you fight, and was just wonderring if you'd ever consider turni........."

Obi-Wan: "Don't even think about it, b!tch"

Palpatine: *sigh* I guess crispy down there'll have to do for now.

*Palpatine clicks his fingers and two droids appear*

Palpatine: "Get the fishing equipment and my asbestos underpants*

mephistodesigns
laughing

vanyoda
Hey Red Superfly , that's a great screenplay big grin

Red Superfly
Athankyou.....

Nice pic by the way hehe!

I dunno about you guys but there's something very 'Monty Python and The Holy Grail" about the way the Obi-Wan and Anakin fight will end.

*Obi-Wan cuts off the Anakins leg and both arms*

Anakin: Right, I'll do you for that!
Obi-Wan: You'll what?
Anakin: Come 'ere!
Obi-Wan: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
Anakin: I'm invincible!
Obi-Wan: You're a loony.
Anakin: The Lord Of The Sith always triumphs! Have at you! Come on then.

*Obi-Wan cuts off Anakins other leg. Anakin is left on the floor with no arms, no legs.*

Anakin: All right; we'll call it a draw.
Obi-Wan: Come, R2.
Anakin: Oh, oh, I see, running away then. You yellow bast*rd! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

*And because it's Star Wars, R2D2 pushes Anakin into the lava*

Red Superfly
And now I've just had another mental fart.

Lava fishing, part II:

Palpatine: "Can you find him?"

Droid: "Not yet sir"

Palpatine: "He must have sank in, find him quick or I'll be screwed"

Droid: "Wait, I think I have something"

*Droid tugs on the fishing rod, and pulls out a burnt body that is still moving*

Burnt body: "We has'es it, my love. My precious..........."

Droid: "It seems to be Gollum from Lord Of The Rings, he's got better special effects than me, the bast*rd"

*Gollum/Andy looks at Palpatine and the ship behind him*

Gollum: "Ahhhh! Wraiths with wings!" *cue drums - bud-um tsssh*

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