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I mean I heard that they have aulter girls now but I d on't see the point of that through since they say that woman can never be prist in the church anyway.
Anyone understand this or can tell me why they think there should be no woman prist ever in the history of the church?Comments anyone?This question has been brothering me so that is why it is good to ask it here since I know you guys would answear it.Thanks JM

Because according to the bible women are inferior beings that exist soley to please men.

May I ask where in the bible it says that.So I can look it up at my friend's house this afternoon.
If you tell me I will be very happy.So please tell me.
And thanks for answearing my question.See you around,JM

It doens't actually say that, but if you read between the lines women are definately shown in a more negative light then men are.

Women cause lots of major problems in the bible, also it was written in the time when women were recognized as second rate citizens so they weren't really seen as independent creatures.

if you want to raise a discussion at least PLEASE look stuff up before posting!!!!

READ the bible and see how it reacts towards women! they should be happy that they aren't locked up in caves!
or read this:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

someone should sue the catholic church for discrimination

just don't believe in a religion that is discriminating towards women in the first place

I hardly know anything about the Bible, but I do recall that a lot of women were prostitutes. Wasn't that shown by them washing feet of men or something?

if women were allowed to become priests, there would be pandemonium, and all sorts of sex drama and trauma as the Catholic priests fell in lust with alter boys and molested them sexually...






yeah, so, not too much different then what's been going on with only men in charge...

I was ready to quote this post and finish the sentence as soon as I read the top bit! Obviously I noticed the lower part once I did so, hehe. Great minds etc........

you sure you aint mixing the Red Shoes Diaries with the bible here Syren

That woman who washed Jesus' feet? She was a ho

There are actually some schools of thought that say Mary Magdaline was not a...ho...but rather the wife of Jesus and the mother of his daughter.

Regarding the OP, the relevant Bible passage would be in 1 Timothy: "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (2:12).

my sister has her moments of madness, i will supervise all of her future postings in this thread

Basically because Christianity is a totally sexist organization. Which is partly because a lot of big important leaders in the past have edited the Bible to say that women are responsible for all of mankind's struggles (Adam and Eve) so that they would be easier to keep out of the government. And tbh, these feminist people really bother me, just so you don't think I'm some new age nutjob who lives with twenty cats.

Yeah. Some people think now that the part about Jesus having a wife was changed to both cast women in a negative light, and to make sexual relationships seem sinful and all that fun stuff.

Tradition, I'm guessing. In the book of Galatians it says that "there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus." And women seem to be pretty well represented in the New Testament, since they stayed with him after the crucifixion and went to his tomb, after all the men had scarpered and gone into hiding. And so on. A pretty good record considering that the Romans treated women like property, the Greeks treated them like houseplants, and the only other priestesses around were the holy prostitutes who served Aphrodite.
And yes, quite a few New Testament women were prostitutes, or more accurately, had been. So what?

Mary Magdalene was considered a prostitute right? I think it was her, but whatever, I mean the ladies who washed the mens' feet and then dried them with their hair..........

I love this thread....

I'm pretty sure the hair thingy happened only once... anyway, the rest of the bible seems dead against prostitution. And the early church had female leaders.
And wasn't there a female pope at some stage? I heard she managed to keep her gender a secret for ages, until the day she went into labour at an inconvenenient moment...

so much for the vow of chastity. Yeah suposed to be Pope John VIII around 850 AD, it aint certain that the stroy is true though

Hey, at least you spelled her name right. She probally was a ho. Jesus hung out with some pretty interesting people.

I may not be religious but I am well read Therefore my spelling is rarely problematic.

the prof Middle Ages I had stressed out a few times that the "rumor" of having a female pope is fault.

about prostitution:

Lev 19:29
"Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness."

Deu 23:17
"There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."

Which is pretty much every major organized religion.

You want to know what the Bible thinks of women????
Here http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

How ANY woman can be a Christian is TOTALLY beyond me

Yeah, God loves ALL his children apart from those who are -

Gay
Having Abortions
Having sex before marrage
Are not going to chuch
Are not praying to God
Are eating what there warent supposed to
Are having an affairs...etc.

Same would go for Islam.

It's called being brainwashed into following the norm of your society.

I doubt many know the "special" rules there are for the eastern-periods

something about all of the disciples being male, i think

the more stricter Catholics don't allow women to speak in church, either and the disciple thing is true, I looked at in school

We have some weird women at our Church who opposed the decision to have a female vicar, and who won't talk in Church. I guess the mail macho must have had too much momentum to topple in a few centuries, and even now is still sprouting up.

Masochistic bastards

Because they have a penis.....duh!

Judaism isn't quite as bad as Islam and Christianity. Orthodox Judaism, yes, but in the more modern forms, I think women are fairly equal. I know of a female rabbi or two around here.

But you're right about "pagan" religions having a decent place for women. In some ancient pagan nature-worshipping type religion, women were considered sacred, being able to bear children and such.

Did you know that in ancient Egyptian culture, women had as many rights as men? More in fact, depending on the situation. There were female Pharoahs. In acient Egypt, they had more rights than they did in later Greek and Roman cultures.

So much for evolution.

Yep, I knew that. It wasn't uncommon for women to be single and own property.

Cheers, I thought I liked you.....

There are accounts of a number of women who were taken by native people in North America in battles or when in conflict with the early colonists... they were treated as members of their society, especially the Haudenosaunee, people of the long house... when they were forced to be returned to the white settlers, often time they would not wish to leave. If they did leave often times they would run away from the colonists and return to their adoptive culture... the basic organization of their society was based upon their spiritual beleifs. In their organization women were treated with respect and held positions of power, clan mothers had the power to chose and to remove their chiefs if they were not acting in the interests of the people. It was "society and religion inextricably intertwined"...

One example of a religion that women could understandably find attractive... granted native spirituality isnt a mainstream religion, but it was for many people before the white man ****ed it all up....

or Iroquois as they might be better known as

Heh, funny you mention that, some distant relative on my dad's side was captured by a band of Ojibwe and ended up having several children with one of them.

I hope they married and just didnt choose to live together

Because you know, that's such a bad thing

They perfer to be called by their own name for themselves, rather than the name the colonizers assigned them.

Wow, I'm surprised you made a thread like this Jackie.

Seneca rules

What do you mean Seneca rules?

Senaca, one of the six nation of Haudenosaunee.

I used to read this series by Donald Clayton Porter, he portrayed the life in the new world starting around 1680 and it is about the Senaca tribe and it follows the events up until the last book I was able to get a hold of(bok 20) right after the battle of fallen timber.
The series was called The Colonization of America, but it really portray this indian family of the Seneca tribe

huh... I know some about the 6 nations ( i think there were actually seven nations in the federation of the Iroquios, but the seventh one came much later)... I guess I couldnt really remember who the Seneca were exactly. I am actually doing some study on indigenous people of North America now while im at school. Its interesting stuff... really contrasts with what western society teaches. It really engages your thought...

I still dont exactly get your response though "Seneca rules" what are the Seneca rules? Is that the name of the book series you read? I tried looking it up, but came up empty.

well the Haudenosaunee ( Gayanashagowa) were original called the five nation made up of Seneca(Onondowahgah) Cayuga(Guyohkohnyoh), Onondaga(Onundagaono), Oneida(Onayotekaono) and Mohawk(Kanienkahagen), the Tuscarora(Ska-Ruh-Reh) joined later on


Seneca rules is just I always liked the Seneca the best, and the stories in that series is about the Seneca tribe

Right on... thanks for clarifying. How do you know so much about native americans? We just finished up a section on Huedensaunee religon and spirituality... but their government was set up in a really cool way, we talked about that in the intro to Indigenous studies last semester. Yeah... you dont see many Seneca people where I live, although there are a lot of Ojibwe and Dakota/Lakota people in my part of the country.

Always had a fascination for them, and It was more interesting reading and learning about them than homework in christianity, at least reading about the American natives was reading about something real

yeah real enemies they were too Ojibwe( Chippewa) and the Dakota(Sioux)

Yeah... the Sioux really were a bunch of bad asses back in the day, fierce. But they both worked together to take care of the 7th Cavalry... so they could work together when they had to.

Those who defeated Custer at little Big Horn was Sioux, Cheyenne, and Arapaho.

Im losing my mind dude... I need to read up on that stuff again

"bury my heart at Wounded Knee"

I am familiar with the Wounded Knee massacre... Ive read a couple books on that and seen a couple videos on that. Haven't read that one though... I might if i get a chance to. Yeah I just get Chippewa and Ojibwe mixed up in my mind for some reason... my short term memory isnt quite what it used to be.

maybe becasue that it is actually the same tribe

Chippewa and Cheyenne... i meant, god see I told you I'm losing it here... I think its time for me to take a nap, I had too late a night last night and too early a morning...

Anashinabe... Ojibwe... Ojibway... Ojibwa... Chippewa... too many god damn names for the same tribe

when the institution starts admitting men as nuns, maybe then we'll see women as priests...

Hm? I don't pretend to be an expert in church hierarchy, but I believe that the male equivilant of nuns would be monks, not priests.

i was aiming for funny... i guess i'm not.

Actually, the ban on women being priests in the Catholic church is fairly recent... in the 3rd Century a "Bishop Theodora" is mentioned, along with several female priests.... the Church father's later attempted to cover this up by amending the name to Theodore, and altering portraits... Julian of Norwich (twelfthC??) was also a woman, and ordained, but by then ordainerd women were allowede only to preach to other women in Holy orders... there was adeliberate and definite move towards male dominance after the third century, possibly to counter the influence of certain Mystery religions which were threatening the supremacy of Christianity... hence the brutal suppression of Mithraism, and Constantine the Greats (successful) attempt to join his religion the cult of Sol Invictus) with that of his wife (Christianity...) also the rise of the cult of Mary, which threatened the pockets of orthodox Catholics was instrumental in the denigration of the role of the woman in the church... The magdalene was also possibly a priestess of one of the many "Mysteries" around at the time of jesus, some of whom were engaged in ritual sex, just as in certain Hindu cults... whether she was or not, a predominantly Jewish Nazarene congregation(The original Christians' name for themselves) would certainly have levelled accusations of prostitution at her...

do you have any sources to back up the story about female priests and bisshops?

so you wanna cheer for Norwich which now then?
Guess the latter part of the name speaks for itself

There has recently been some media coverage regarding this in Australia. While on a whole it would appear the Church is not open to publicly supporting the ordination of women, the local authorities, the Bishop councils or what ever they are called, can choose to permit it. There are about 280 Anglican women priests in Australia, but they are unable to advance to any higher rank, and there are some European nations that have very small numbers of women being ordained in the Catholic church. It is a start.

The Salvation Army, at least, give total equality to males and females. I mean, an Aussie sheilah was their head boss for a few years there (the leaders are elected.)

Yes, I forgot about them, there is definitely a growing sense and indeed drive for equality in the church.

I read in here that some might think women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman!
Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman. Man had nothing to do with him.

So, theres hardly logic there, women should be as high as pope is.

Yeah, but most of the rest of the Bible is pretty damn sexist... Especially the Old Testament. In Genesis, it says women were "punished" with the pains of childbirth for Eve eating the magic apple. And in Leviticus (this isn't as bad as the thing about Eve, but still interesting), it lists all the different crimes, all of which are from the point of view of a man. Like all the sexual offenses say "you would defile yourself" or some other male that the female you slept with belonged to.

Well, it was a patriarchal society. It doesn't say women are worse than men, it just acknowledges that men were (officially at least) in charge. Also, there is a bit in Proverbs called The Wife of Noble Character, she sounds infinitely more... er... autonomous than what a good classical Greek, Roman or even Victorian woman was supposed to be.

And Adam was cursed with spending the rest of his life doing hard labor, and the snake was punished to crawl on its belly. Everybody involved got slapped down one way or the other; I don't see anything sexist about it.

And also back in the time appraoching the first Crusade, women had a great deal of power over the Church. There is an Urban legand in history that a female may have managed to become pope through treachurous means, many Bishops and priests were appearently under the influence of there mistresses who blackmailed them, and other Popes where manipulated by their mothers. All rather sexist, but a contributing factor perhaps.

It's sad to think, in the pre-Christian days, women were once an integral part of society. Sex was once held to be a sacred act. A man was said not to be complete until being paire sexually with a woman. But after Christianity rose in the world, all women with power and status were disenfranchised and demonized, sex was demonized, everything about women became dirty and wrong. All because of what the proverbial 'Eve' did in Genesis

Women have finally (almost) regained what they had in ancient times, except in the Christian faith. Damn all Christians and their bigoted ignorance

depends on the denomination

"Damn all Christians..." kind of ironic, when you think about what that word actually means. And do you actually know any Christians?

because catholics are the most hypocritical of denominations in the christian faith.

Yeah, but which is worse... If childbirth is as painful as everybody says it is, I'd much rather be a snake or do hard labor all day than have to go through that on a regular basis.

Are you kidding? They're everywhere! Like a friggin' plague!. I live in a family of Roman Catholics!

if the bible is the words of god, surely they ought to be universal? and if the good old lad had high thoughts about women, surely he'd make sure the book that was published in his name made that clear and spoke from the viewpoint of both sexes?
and yes, I do think that women are made to be worse than men. the man is the one closer to god, course he was made directly from the old man himself. the woman was made from the man, thus inferiour and moved further away from god. she's the temptress and what must be controlled by the man. part of her salvation is her submission.

If they are from god, they still had to be filtered through a human mind.....

I haven't read this part for a very long time, but doesn't it say that the woman is now to be under the man? can't remember ...

anyway, this story is said to be a perverted version of a pagan religion, in which the woman had the final say. their goddess apparently had two symbols; the snake and the apple, representing something like wisdom and fertility. the symbols where twisted around in the christian version, which made the woman and the snake enemies and thus alienated the woman to this symbol of earlier feminine power.

yes, but why accept such big flaws if you have the power to prevent them?
I am aware that the bible is old and has been written and rewritten several times. I just don't see why a god would allow his words to be perverted like that.

"I live in a family of Roman Catholics!" (sorry, can't get the quote thing to work.)
Very nice point!!! Don't worry, not all Christians are ignorant bigots.
Ah, Line, about God not allowing his word to be peverted like that... I think of it in terms of, well, think about love, it is a beautiful, perfect thing, and yet think of how many broken marriages and neglected kids there are. Humans have a tendancy to mess things up...

sure, we mess a lot of things up. but messing up the idea of god himself? his own words? the ones that must help us find the right way? if some of the bible's not quite correct because we messed it up, then how do we know which part it is? and in which degrees it's been messed up?

Aye, good point. I hate this forum, it makes me think about stuff... still, there is that nifty verse, in Galatians I think, about God not caring whether you're male or female, slave or free, Jew or Greek (or some similarly archaic racial divide.) And I always thought the bible had a pretty damn good attitude towards women, especially considering what the greeks and romans were like.
And yeah, there is that vaguely troubling bit in Corinthians about women not speaking in church. And I hate to say this sort of thing, because it always sounds like a cop-out, but perhaps it really is one of those cultural thingies that only applies to the context of Paul's letter to the Corinthians. Especially considering the only other female priests in existence at the time were the holy prostitutes of Aphrodite.
Anyway, my own mother is a minister, and one of the most cynical, anti-authoritarian people I have ever met. So if christianity can work for her...
This reply is much longer than I thought it would be. Sod!

the thing is that if you choose to take lightly on some of the stuff in the bible because of let's say cultural factors, then how's one to know exactly what to take lightly and what not?

they don't know....

This issue is a matter of interpretation, I guess. Personally, I have always taken the no women speaking in churches passages as applying to specific situations. Most people take the head covering one as specific, and I think this one applies too.

You have to think about what was going on at the time. Women then were uneducated. They had never been allowed to participate or even attend in religious services. All of a sudden, they could. They didn't understand things, so they were asking questions. All these passages are saying is that one shouldn't disrupt the service when one doesn't understand what is going on. That is my take anyways.

Woman cant be priests. I mean if woman were priests, who would cook for the priest? Besides, woman were made from the rib of Adam. woman came from men, so woman have to listen to men.

well catholic priest cant marry so I guess they have to cook their meals themselves

nah, the nuns do it for them.

shit

well, why is there woman preachers but not priest? whats the diff there?

You took the words right outta my mouth

I thought that Catholics could not have women as priests or "preachers"... I thought that preacher is just a term used by other denominations, umm non-liturgical churches for basically the same job as a priest. I don't know if they have to go to seminary school or what to get that job, but again probably depends on denomination.

I thought that the bible, being the words of god, would be more general considering that it should stay right and true till doomsday?
women bickering throughout the service could have been dealt with simply by asking them to shut up before it started. why the need for the "shutting up order" to appear as to be from god himself?

oh God. My friend read some stupid that made her beleive the same thing, along with that Mary Magdaline was in the last supper painting

ok, Jesus was not married. The only reason she might possibly be in the last supper painting is because I do beleive, it was her house they were eating at. and, lastly, it doesnt matter whose house they were at, Mary magdaline was nOT in the last supper painting, there are 12 MEN, in that painting, along with Jesus, and guess who they are? they 12 apostles!

Ok, and to answer Jackie Malfoy's question, I'm pretty sure that women cannot be preists in the Catholic Church because preists in mass are speaking in Jesus' place, and since Jesus was not a woman, presits are not women. I'm pretty sure thats the reason. I'll have to check it with my mom, cause she knows like everything there is to know about the church.

where does it say for a fact that jesus was not married.

Claims have been made that Maria Magdalena wasnt a whore, she might have been of royal descendant and some women of importance, she was displayed as a whore by them that saw her and her followers as a threat to the society they were trying to establish so they kind of disgraced her by portraying her as a whore. This info isnt only found in the book by Dan Brown (The Da Vinci Code), it is actually found in different text and scriptures.

so did my friend, it was called the bible.


this is the apostle in question John, looks feminine to me though

How do we know the bible states the truth and the Da Vinci Code is fiction.

because the Da vinci code has fictional charachters blended in it with actual charachters and facts...............hell that just like the bible

And who says he didn't get it out of the bible which may be wrong.

cause Leonardo Da Vinci aint in the bible

I know that simone, but remeber is it all true and is it all from divinci s life who died sad a nd alone.

simone?

Exactly, diff denomination do have woman as preachers just wondering why it was ok for that but not as a Priest.

Erhm, yeah, and this is most certainly a man:

http://www.edtech.vt.edu/edtech/arthistory/photos/davinci_supperd1.jpg



To me, at least, that one on the far right is CLEARLY a woman.

indeed, just as the picture I posted a bit earlier. Just that is after the restoration

I don't see why jesus being a man should prevent women from speaking in his place. spokes people of both sexes speak for people of both sexes all the time. besides, they're only retelling his words, not his actual body.

i was talking about this picture, in which there are no women


http://www.edugraphics.net/gg8-religion/posters/gg810-ls.jpg


and take into consideration how men wore their hair then, they had long hair, not short.

she read some fiction novel

I still think the one in the green clothing to the left does look rather feminine ...

that is the same picture Nazgulinthedark as Darth Raven posted only his picture is original while the one you posted is a replica of Da Vinci`s Last Supper.

If you look at the person supposedly to be John(# 6 from the left, the one in green shirt with a brown robe over the arm) originally that shirt was blue
here is a picture (yet again) of that person after restoration

very feminine face on that one

Women priests, male priests? Now it's priests of both sexes I don't listen to.

-AC

Im starting to like the bible

I bet you Jesus was tappin' all them asses!

he he yeah I was waiting for someone to get to this guess jesus and his disciples was that times answer of todays Fab 5............maybe thats the reason why Judas I betrayed jesus. he was jealous cause jesus had an affair with simon peter

Hheheh. Maybe. Although I am not sure the Bible has anything to do with the ordination of women, after all it was written before the Christian churches came into being, and when the Christian Church was formed during the women periods it was natural for women to have a subservient role in most things except religion. Women were often important parts of the "pagan" religions, in early Rome some of the most powerful people were the Vestal Virgins, which is all odd, as outside religion women were distinctly lower then men. Also there was a lot of controversy at times during the early "Dark Ages", it is possible there may have been a woman Pope, many Bishops and clergy were pawns of mistresses, and a number of Popes were under the thumb of their mothers. Does this have anything to do with it? Maybe, maybe not, but it may have contributed... and not all religions and/or denominations exclude women from being Priests, so it is probably only a matter of time...

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/mc101.gif

women do your shores

Originally posted by BackFire
Because according to the bible women are inferior beings that exist soley to please men.

No, the bible never says that.

Originally posted by JLRTENJAC
No, the bible never says that.

Paul's writings state that woman are inferior, dirty, not to teach, or preach....Blame it on Paul....in the OT...women were not only prophetess, but Judges...

Men do not want women to have power. Not all men, just the ones who have power in the chirch now and for a long time in the past.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Men do not want women to have power. Not all men, just the ones who have power in the chirch now and for a long time in the past.

And men that attend these kind of churches treat their women like subservient crap too....I've seen it....like rugs.

Originally posted by debbiejo
And men that attend these kind of churches treat their women like subservient crap too....I've seen it....like rugs.

More like incubators for their baby boys.

Woman cant be a priest in ANY faith (apart from Buddhism).

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
More like incubators for their baby boys.

Oh, I've seen them....bare foot and pregnant...and screaming "Where's my dinner." And shut up you down cast woman...You better keep you eyes down....And you're opinion don't matter....God said I'm the head of this house...and blah blah blah.............How lovely....I'd want to get married too....and be a pregnant rug...and teach my girls to do the same.....OH...I can hardly wait.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Woman cant be a priest in ANY faith (apart from Buddhism).

Buddhism was the first to make women equal, some 3000 years ago.

well, this isnt what i think, but the thing is that catholics believe that when a priest is giving a service, the lord is kind of speaking through him, and they just think its better if a guy speaks through a guy than a guy speaking through a girl i guess. i disagree, but what can ya do

Originally posted by fruits
well, this isnt what i think, but the thing is that catholics believe that when a priest is giving a service, the lord is kind of speaking through him, and they just think its better if a guy speaks through a guy than a guy speaking through a girl i guess. i disagree, but what can ya do

Power! my friend, it all has to do with power. The rationalization is: it was Adam that sinned, therefore, man must do the work.

The church just hated that Wisdom is a woman.....

Originally posted by debbiejo
The church just hated that Wisdom is a woman.....

I like that... my mother was a woman and my wife is a woman. I think women are pretty cool.

But wisdom is not excursive.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I like that... my mother was a woman and my wife is a woman. I think women are pretty cool.

But wisdom is not excursive.

OK...it's an all inclusive resort....

sure, debbiejo is always right.

Originally posted by cking
sure, debbiejo is always right.

Don't tell her that... it will go to her head.

ok, I won't.

I won't either.....shhhhh

ha!

too many candles around that would distract here from what she is suppose to be doing

No...candles would make it more interesting though.

maybe