Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Okay who would win if the original beyonder as in the one who captured all the earths hero's and most deadly villians even Galactus by the way he kicked Galactus ass later......well what if he had to fight the Living Tribunal. The Living Tribunal is a being that could stop the infinity gauntlet in its tracks while the original Beyonder even killed Death at one point.

There's a thread already on this.

the living tribunal would win against anyone, he just thinks it and they no longer exist. he is basicaly god

Basically, as of the end of SWII, the reader was left with the impression that all other cosmic beings, including LT (explicitly mentioned, mind you), were afraid of the Beyonder. Molecule Man was telling this to his girl friend.

However, in a bunch of FF issues, dubbed secret wars III, we learn that in fact that was all a ruse. Beyonder's just another cosmic cube on par with Shaper, Kubik, Kosmos, etc.

In Marvel Universe: The End, Thanos (when he is in possession of the power of TOAA - really lame imho), he refers to the living tribunal as THE top entity in the universe.

Yes. But going by the rules of this thread, Beyonder would win. The original Beyonder surpassed LT, who was unable to prevent Beyonder's actions.

I think they should have just left The Beyonder as powerful as he was in the beginning who cares if he was more powerful then the LT, The Beyonder died anyway so the LT doesnt have any competition anymore, they should have let him die in peace instead of making him a lesser character and making his life a lie.

Lack of action does not equal inability to act. The Living Tribunal never acts unless something threatens the entire multiverse. Beyonder in no way surpassed Living Tribunal, period. This isn't even a subjective argument.

um , yea he did, the sole purpose of the beyonder to exist is to guaruntee the safety of the entire multiverse, and did u know that the beyonder was plannin to destroy the entire multiverse out of rage, but he was stopped not by LT{not that he didnt try} but by the reasoning of some normal heroes. neway, i think the only reason marvel turned him into a cosmic cube was that they thought that he was TOO powerful, and marvel has never been a fan of GOD figures running about. neway, LT is not the highest power, he was defeated by thanos when he had the HEART OF THE UNIVERSE, the supreme being is THE ONE ABOVE ALL, supposedly, the being that created LT , but did u know that there are infact TRUE beyonders, who can actually do all the stuff that the fake cosmic cube beyonder did, but they dont show themselves much and live in the tue beyond realm, from where the energy which creates cosmic cubes LEAKS oiut of from time to time, neway, im goin on fer too long, my point, a true beyonder can whoop LT's ass.

umm sorry i meant that the sole purpose of the living tribunal to exist was to guaruntee the safety of the multiverse.

The Real Beyonders are a part of the so-called multiverse, and are NOT above LT. The Beyonders are very much like the celestials...performing experiments throughout the universe. I have no idea what their 'role' in the multiverse is (e.g. Celestials are supposed to do Eternity's bidding).

I agree that they coped out on the beyonder. He could have been the coolest vistitor of the Marvel Universe.
He did whop the whole universe. Maybe he was tricked into the cube but he defeated them all when they were united even without lifting his head.

dudes check any source and it will say that beyonder is the most powerful being in OUR Universe. Also, it will say that he comprised all of the otherdimensional universe.(that means that his entire body was a universe in itself)yes, we all now that the beyonders are an ancient race from another dimension and blah blah blah, they were the first to create cosmic cubes and the like. it is therefore logical to assume that every other beyonder in any other dimension is the most powerful in THAT dimension. Also, just like LT, he is a single entity. Meaning that any other dimension the beyonders travel to there wont be any parrallel counterparts.LT however, governs over the multiverse,omniverse(whatever you wanna call it) to maintain balance, he was put to the Helm by TOAA. whether this being is an actual entity or a collective cosmic consciousness, we dont know,but even the "orignal" beyonder is no match for LT

I never said the Living Tribunal was the highest power. I know The One Above All is his creator, but he's not ever shown. Living Tribunal is the highest Marvel character depicted. He's above Beyonder. Beyonder cannot whim everything out of existence like LT can. Beyonder is a physical being, all physical beings have limitations. LT transcends physical properties. You cannot be more powerful than the judge of the multiverse. That doesn't work.

the LT coundnt even beat Korvac he just locked him up into his own universe Korvac was originally a human and your saying that the Beyonder cant beat LT the LT is a moronic stupid character there is no point of having it thats the whole point of a comic or any story with villians is that the villians have a chance of winning and the good guys have a chance of willing whats the point if the villains win and there comes the mornic LT and just reverses everything The Beyonder was a perfect being to be omnipatent he was neather good or bad.

And the LT cant whim just all existance out he couldnt whim Korvac eighter the Beyonder distoryed an entire Galaxy just to make his own little planet so use your heads.

LT did SHIT to stop the Beyonder's actions. He could only watch. The original Beyonder was the most powerful being Marvel ever created. That's why he was recconned to be weaker. Marvel doesn't like GOD-like beings in their comics, that's why they reconned him.

Beyonder wasn't even a physical being in Secret Wars I. He had no form in Secret Wars I. In II, he showed up in a body. However, that doesn't make him lesser than LT who also has a physical form as well.

As for willing someone out of existence, Doom with Beyonder's powers was able to will the heroes out of existence as well. He did everything he wished, they only limitation was that his control was unstable - Beyonder's powers were too much for Doom to handle.

Beyonder was a threat to the multiverse, LT couldn't do a damn thing about it like every other abstract entities. If he could've, he would've since it was his JOB.

FOlks, as I said Marvel did a rethink. Prior to Secret Wars III (i.e. the plot run in FF), it was thought that LT was just another cosmic type. After that, Marvel had made him top dog. Marvel Continuity is NOT continuous.

Beyonder WAS the top dog during the day. LT and all the other cosmic types were too SCARED (this is explicitly stated in Secret Wars II #8 and #9, I think), to do squat against him. Only Owen (Molecule Man) had the guts to stand up to him.

Later, when doom, Kubic, Shaper and owen show up in Beyonder's pocket universe (the one where Molecule Man put him in when Beyonder made himself mortal in SW II #9), we find out he's not all that.

I don't know when LT was made top dog, but it certainly was that way as of Thanos Quest, and most recently it has been explicitly stated by Thanos himself in Marvel Universe: The End.

So, original beyonder vs. current LT, I dunno...it's too confusing to tell.

This is kind of off subject but has the LT ever been beaten? I heard that when Thanos had gotten the heart of the universe or something of that nature he finally had enough power to defeat the LT.

LT is a "moronic stupid character" but Beyonder isn't?? Give me a break. Beyonder was the Onslaught of the 80s, one of the worst characters ever written.

No, he only DID watch. He sat around at watched Thanos with the IG too, doesn't mean he couldn't stop him. It's not his job to stop every little punk who comes along and acts like he's God, he only does so if he's threatening existence. Beyonder didn't do that. Beyonder was a threat to Earth heroes, not to the entire multiverse. Thus it's not LT's job.

Didn't Molecule Man beat the hell out of him too? LT is certainly above Molecule Man. LT's powers haven't changed, they've just been more concretely defined. His role has been the same since the beginning of time, just because he wasn't defined as the top dog doesn't mean he wasn't. Yes he's a character, but we're supposed to believe these characters believe that what exists is real, thus LT is going to be the same, he's not going to 'gain power.' You can't gain power when you have as close to all the power as you can get without being THE God.

Mider, in Marvel Universe: The End, "The One Above All" gave his powers to Thanos, and so LT couldn't do squat against him. Something about some great cosmic anomoly that required the universe to be reset, kinda like how you have to reboot your computer when it hangs. Silly story, but that's how it was. The idea was that TOAA could count on Thanos to do the job, and LT and all other cosmic beings were left clueless.

That is NOT how it was portrayed in Secret Wars. In fact, at one point the Beyonder did nullify the universe temporarily, if memory serves me correct.

The writing was not ambiguous on this. The cosmic beings were too chicken to confront beyonder. Check out SW II #7 or #8, can't remember which one. One of the issues was dedicated to the Beyonder confronting the cosmic beings.

MM beat up Beyonder in one of the FF annuals, I think.

LT's role in the Marvel Universe I think was always the same, however as far as power levels are concerned, it is quite clear that Marvel did a rethink on this. I mean, we can explain it away (and that's exactly what Marvel did) by thinking LT was just playing along, however the intent of the original writers was to have LT as just another cosmic being doing his job. So as the current LT stands, you are correct. He was always that way.

However, I think the challenge is the beyonder as understood from the original SW vs. LT of today.

umm Beyonder captured Galactus thats a threat to the universe DUH! and so was Doom when he got the Beyonders powers and yes the tribunal is moronic and no the Beyonder isnt. why? cause the Beyonder was just some guy with like unlimited power the living tribunal is a pompas mornic character that sits around while others do his work just like eternity and death.

The UNIverse is not the MULTiverse. Thanos was a threat to the UNIverse and Living Tribunal didn't care. Beyonder was not a threat to all of existence, so yeah LT sat around. He was interested and perhaps a little scared because he'd never encountered such a ridiculous, irresponsible cosmic being with such power, doesn't mean he wouldn't wink him out of existence.



Plus anyone would be scared of someone with such an absurd haircut. If you like Beyonder you've got to like Richard Simmons.

You have no clue what you're talking about do you? We're talking about the original Beyonder. Also, killing Death isn't going to get LT's attention?

LT didn't interfere with Thanos because Thanos only wanted to KILL life to satisfy his Mistress. Killing life isn't the same as destroying the universe; Thanos never wanted that. He only wanted life in the universe to cease - there's a difference. Hence, LT did not stop him. As long as the universe in still in place, life can still start over.

HOWEVER, Eternity was able to PUT UP A CASE & WIN against Adam Warlock with the IG because Eternity acussed Warlock of being unstable and unfit to wield a power which can destroy reality. Meaning Warlock is a danger to the universe based on his past, which LT agreed and ruled against Warlock.

Beyonder was threat to the everything. Doom with Beyonder's power was affraid that he might destroy existence if his mind went astray for a mere moment. Beyonder was toying with every being. When Beyonder threatened to destroy existence, the Celestials jumped at him about to attack but was put do easily with a whim from an amused Beyonder. With a thought Beyonder could destroy the universe, the Multiverse is just a collection of universes which might require harder concentration to wipe out.

LT did shit against Beyonder. He could only gather his cosmic buddies together and watch helplessly as the Beyonder destroyed Death.

not a threat to existance? um ok he only captured Galactus and killed every super hero on earth killed death and umm some other minur stuff......but yeah i guess your right he was not that much of a threat to existance he only defeated two cosmic entities took over earth defeated mephesto and beat the shit out of everyone else uh huh : / and distoryed a galaxy......get your info right

Thanos did the same thing: killed virtually every super hero and half the life in the universe. Saying that's not a threat is asinine. It's a threat to the balance of the universe, but it's not a threat to existence. Beyonder had to be rescued from Mephisto, and LT was impressed with Beyonder, he was not scared. The Multiverse is to the universe what the universe is to Earth, saying it might require harder concentration is absurd. Beyonder in no way is capable of taking out the multiverse, thus the Living Tribunal is simply amused by his antics, nothing more.

The idea of killing Death is asinine. The Marvel writers must have been off their rockers. Thanos had his way with the universe and LT didn't step in until he felt it necessary, so wrath is right here. The wellbeing of all existence does not lie on a single earth in a single universe. You guys are thinking too small scale. What beyonder was doing wasn't even a drop in a bucket.

Well, Death WAS killed by captain Marvel in Universe X

theres a lot of cunfusion here, LT didnt do anythin about thanos with the infinite gauntlett cause the IG was only destroyin the life of a single universe, but infact later, with the snap of a finger LT cancelled the IG powers. but when thanos had THE HEART OF THE UNIVERSE, he even destroyed LT. now as long as we are talking about the secret wars version of the beyonder, there is no chance in hell that LT could do anything about it. the beyonder wahted to destroy the entire multiverse not just the universe which many think, but that was just a phase he went through because he could not find his place and purpose in the world. dr strange and cap america talked him out of it. but that doesnt go to say that LT did not TRY to stop him. but the simple fact is that he wasnt able to. another thing, the beyond realm is NOT, and i repeat NOT part of the multiverse or omniverse. it was chronologically created alongside the normal multiverse by TOAA. that is exactly the reason why beyonder of secret wars{and true beyonders, as we see them now} had so much power, because they were not limited or UNDER any of the limitations of concepts or abstracts of the normal multiverse. ok imagine this, the fact is that the beyond realm is unimaginably big, bigger than the whole multiverse, but even a single dimensional gate, be it microscopic, will leak out the power to create a cosmic cube, now the other fact was that the secret wars version beyonder was the sum total of the entire beyond realm, just imagine that.

another thing is that people tend to see the things beyonder did as the extent of his power, however thas not true, his destruction of a galaxy and destruction of DEATH, was like childs play to him, he didnyt even blink let alone weaken when he used his power to destroy death, then he brought death back in existance.

and whoever is comparin true beyonders with the celestials has knocked his head badly somewhere.
according to reed richard's hypothesis, the only thing that the beyonder couldnt do was create a paradox in space time as this would destroy all of existance, and the entire multiverse, along with the beyonder because he was also in one of the universes of the multiverse, but even this was just a hypothesis.

That doesn't work. There cannot be a universe outside the multiverse, by the very definition ANY universe is part of the multiverse. Beyonder's universe was his own, but it's still part of a multiverse, I don't care how it was explained. Leon, by your very argument, you've admitted the only thing Beyonder could not do was the very thing he needed to do to be a threat to Living Tribunal. LT did not try to stop him. He didn't need to stop him. Beyonder didn't have the power to destroy all of existence, thus LT can sit back and watch. Again, the Beyonder was insanely powerful, but he was not multiverse-scale. He manipulated and destroyed things on a cosmic level, but only on a universe scale, not a multiverse. LT is multi-verse level. Nothing is higher than him except the One.

You talk like the Creator needed to imprison his creations. If that were true no one would be Here at all. The "freedom" to be independent of the Creator is inherent. To function outside of ramifactions is the natural order of things. Yet your whole argument denies this reality. No offesense. But let those who judge be judged.

wrathofachilles

The color might have come out wrote (don't know why) but just read it. This is comic logic. Think what you might, but the Beyonder does exist outside the multiverse. This is comic; they can choose to have a realm outside the multiverse - it's their creation, not yours! Beyonder is NOT from the multiverse - hence why he's called "The Beyonder."

Here's Galactus' statement
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/tydrk359/SecretWars001-11.jpg

And wrath, did you even read The Infinity Gauntlet Saga and Infinity Watch #1. LT HIMSELF clearly admits to the reasoning behind not taking away the Gauntlet from Thanos and taking the Gauntlet away from Warlock. LT himself clearly states his reasons.

I think it was Eternity that stated Thanos being more suitable of a host to the Infinity Gauntlet than Warlock as he does not have the life experience as other beings have had.

Thanos was a nut who wanted to wipe out life in the universe only.
Warlock was unfit/unstable and might wipe out the ENTIRE universe.

Yes I read the IG, I know LT's reasons behind not stopping Thanos. Point is, he didn't. He could have, but he didn't. As far as Galactus' statement, the Marvel writers can say whatever they want, but the fact of the matter is it is impossible, plain and simple. Yes this is a comic book world and comic 'logic', but comic book writers almost never know what they're talking about when they delve into a scientific field. It doesn't make much difference anyway; once Beyonder entered into this universe, he entered into the jurisdiction of the Living Tribunal, thus he was under his power. He could have been willed away like any other being in this universe.

Let's go by your statement: comic book writers almost never know what they're talking about when they delve into a scientific field. If that's the case, then they also don't know what they're talking about when they say Living Tribunal guards the multiverse, right? Maybe what they ment was

You still don't get it do you? LT guards the multiverse because WRITTERS decided so, Marvel decided so. If WRITTERS/Marvel decides to have the Beyonder from a realm beyond the Multiverse, they can. Hence, his name: The Beyonder. If he wasn't from the realm beyond the multiverse, he would be called The Beyonder; alien beings & cosmic gods wouldn't refer to him a The One From Beyond. The whole deal with him is that he's not from the universe or multiverse everyone knows, he's from beyond that. Beyond the reaches and power of any being. He killed Death and LT doesn't interfere? LT couldn't if he wanted.

Marvel writers don't know what they're talking about with science yes, but that is a completely different point than changing how characters work. If Living Tribunal acts as judge, jury, and executioner of the multiverse, any being within this multiverse is under his jurisdiction. EVEN IF Beyonder was outside the multiverse, once he enters LT's realm, he is under his power. Of course LT could if he wanted, that's absurd. Death is not on Tribunal's level, you can't say 'since Beyonder killed Death, he could take out Tribunal.' Not even close. The Living Tribunal knew Death could not 'stay dead,' he's just below the One, meaning he can see how things are to turn out. He wasn't needed, so he didn't waste his time.

Acting as judge, jury, and executioner means nothing. Just 'cause he has jurisdiction over a place doesn't mean he has complete control. Evidence, Mephisto getting wooped in his OWN REALM/JURISDICTION, Surtur against Odin in Asgard, Thanos w/ against Eternity in the universe which he embodies, etc.

As for Death, Beyonder killed Death. LT and every other cosmic wanted to but couldn't even stop him. Death isn't on LT's level but obviously LT and the rest of his cosmic buddies couldn't do shit - because Beyonder killed Death. And if LT knew Death would come back, why would he or the other cosmics ASK Beyonder not to? Furthermore, who says Death doesn't stay dead? Just because she's Death doesn't mean she can't be killed. She WAS dead.

Mephisto is outsmarted in his realm, rarely is he ever actually defeated. Thanos defeated Eternity because he embodied the fabric of space and time, and Odin has defeated Surtur. These are all different anyway because they are the leaders of this realm, but they do not literally control every whim if they desire to do so. It most certainly means everything that Tribunal is judge, jury, and executioner. It is his JOB to determine what exists and what does not. Nothing is above him except the One. That is the VERY NATURE of his character. Again, it's ridiculous to say LT couldn't do anything. You cannot argue that someone is incapable of doing something simply because they have not done it. LT doesn't have to ask anything, he is not supposed to interfere in things unless it is detrimental to the existence of ALL the universes. Beyonder was NOT a threat to ALL of existence. As for Death, she can die yes, but she can be resurrected as well. LT knew that she would be resurrected. The Tribunal can see the past, present, and future.

yes but his power over timje was not on par with that of the beyonder since if he KNEW, that the beyonder would never have destroyed the multiverse, he would have never tried to stop the beyonder

btw, beyonder looks like elvis

if i remeber correctly, when the beyonder felt that he had no place in the universe, he was just about to destroy the universe, and let me explain something else, the beyonder COULD generate a paradox in space time, but he didnt or COULDNT do it because it would end up destroying him and the entire multiverse.

If he felt that he had no place in the universe, then the solution would be:

1. Kill himself

2. Leave the universe

that would have been the logical course of action for a sane human but thats not how it was portraid in the comics

he didnt want to leave the universe because after all the things and the new reality he expirienced, he felt that he was not as complete as he thought before and for the first time felt that he lacked things, thus he felt desire for the first time

He does not look like Elvis. Elvis never looked like that; Beyonder is a David Hasselhoff reject.

Beyonder = Donny Osmon

Furthermore, if LT could see into the past, present, & future, why didn't he see Thanos was going kick his butt during The End. LT is powerful and all, but The Beyonder clearly was more powerful.

As for Mesphito, he doesn't just rule his realm; he has total control over his realm. He's used it against various enemies (Thor, Surfer, Strange, Doom, etc.) who he's battled, bringing his realm alive to attack his foes. Nevertheless, Galactus absorbed his realm and Mephisto retreated. Warlock used the soul gem and kicked Mephisto's butt; Thor has fought Mephisto and walked out of his realm before.

eleveninches, he felt like he had no place in the universe, no purpose. He wanted to find himself, find a purpose to his life. Unlike other cosmic beings who have some kind of role, he doesn't. He was the everything & the nothing but without a role. Freedom but what to do?

(1)
I desire to... understand
In my realm, I am all ! But here is multiplicity... here is diversity... here is incompleteness which I do not understand ! I desire to understand !
...
(2)
In my universe, I was all ! Here there is multiplicity... diversity... incompleteness ! Why ?
The multiplicity and disunity of this universe is confusing !
...
(3)
"In my realm, I was all, the entirety of my own universe ! I knew only of my own oneness --
"I decided that, even more than before, I desired to understand !
"Therefore, days of your time ago, I came to Earth to walk among those here !
With just a thought I subject all who live to my will without resistance, without a doubt... without exception !
Why should I limit my control to humans and other higher life-forms ? I can bring even the bacteria and viruses under my control !
And why stop there ? Even inanimate matter can be controlled ! How simple to seize control of every molecule, every atom, every particle of substance in the world !
Now... everything is mine !
I own everything, I rule everything, I control everything -- virtually, every particle of matter and erg of energy on this planet -- ! And yet I am uncontent !
Conquering the world, I found, did not bring an end to desire, but instead caused a greater sense of unfulfillment -- of incompleteness ! Possessions and power do not bring fulfillment !
...
(4)
I'm beginning to understand the nature of desire, which seems to be the basis of most of the activity going on in this universe !
"I come from another universe, beyond yours! There I was all, the entirety of existence! I knew of nothing except myself...
"Eventually I came here and took human form, that I might come to experience and understand the way of things here!
I have learned much in my few days here! Today, I learned of something called love! I would like to experience it!
All at once, you are but a tiny speck of protoplasm, an infinitesimal mote in the whole of this universe -- and yet, inside, in the essence of your being, you are more, it seems, than the universe itself !
I am from beyond ! I have power far greater than the sum of all power in existence in the universe...
...
(5)
I come from another universe...
I was alone there ! The idea of anything else existing never even occurred to me --
All of the more sophisticated races in the universe are fully aware of my presence here ! I'm the most powerful being in existence !
...
(6)
As the univers goes along, there is a constant struggle taking place between life and death !
Ultimately, either all things will die and the universe will reach total entropy, or all the inhabitants of the universe will evolve into godlike, immortal beings and death will be vanquished !
I'm siding with the forces of life !
I'm still uncertain about all this ? I don't know yet exactly what my role is in the fight for life !
I'm bigger than the multiverse, and more powerful than all of the forces in it, of every kind, combined !
As long as I'm here, the "way" of the multiverse is my way !
...
(7)
What am i, that entire armies attack me, though I am simply sitting and thinking ? Am I so monstrous -- ?
Maybe my true role is to teach all the others beings in existence what their true roles are !
...
(8)
I'm so angry... that I want to destroy all existence !
Since I am the sum of everything beyond, without me, it's nothing ! It's not even a place, really !
Nothing is complete here ! No one thing is everything -- Not even me as long as there are other thing !
I can eliminate everything but me ! Then, I'll be the only thing -- ! I'll be all there is -- ! Complete, happy, fulfilled -- !
No force in existence could possibly destroy me without my consent.
Well, It's over now ! I'm going to destroy all existence right now !
Everything is mine if I choose ! And whatever doesn't please me is history !
...
(9)
I came from a realm beyond the multiverse !
The trouble with being omnipotent is that reality isn't real to me! Everything is what I say it is!
My imagination and reality are virtually indistinguishable! All existence, except me, might as well be a figment of my imagination!
I know desire, because I'm incomplete --
Can I erase my own mind ? And if I do, what am I then ? Dead ?
I've taken human shape, but I've never truly become mortal ! I'm going to do it !
What a rush ! It was awesome... terrifying... exhilarating !
I'm not just an ordinary mortal ! I still have all my memories from before !
All the mighty of this multiverse fear me !
The trick is to become mortal, and yet also retain my power -- ! To have a finite element -- humanity -- inside my otherwise omnipotent self !
Finally! I always had omnipotence -- ! At last I'll have humanity too !

I'm pretty sure he can see the future; I read somewhere that's why he has three faces, to see the past, present, and future. Why he couldn't see Thanos could be because Thanos had the power of the One, meaning if he has power superior to LT, it doesn't work. Either way, Beyonder is not the One, and is not more powerful, plain and simple.

Of course Mephisto has total control over his realm, but that realm is not all of existence. Galactus exists outside his realm and exists on a higher level. The 'Hell' of Mephisto acts as a world, and Galactus can destroy any world, thus Galactus is obviously more powerful than Mephisto. Beyonder exists in this universe, trying to do things in this universe; Living Tribunal acts as judge of this universe, meaning he controls ALL actions within it if he so desires. Beyonder was not Thanos, he was a curious kid with a magnifying glass. That's not sufficient to throw the multiverse into chaos.

Everything Beyonder posted sounds about equal to the power of the IG. Thanos saw the difference when eh absorbed the Heart. Had beyonder done the same he'd realize he isn't all that poweful either.

Not that powerful? LT didn't do a thing. And Beyonder isn't any kid as Wrath tries to point him out to be. He was from beyond the multiverse. Even thanos with the IG was never a threat to the multiverse. The IG gives you power over only one universe; the Beyonder could wipe out all of existence. Beyonder stated himself that he could destroy all of existence; did you even read what I wrote Wrath? Even Galactus admitted Beyonder was from a realm beyond the multiverse, stop arguing that he's part of the universe or the multiverse since everything points to him being of foreign origins.

What Beyonder says is true. Folks, just read the damn Secret Wars series (I and II). Beyonder was ALL that and a bag of chips.

LT couldn't do squat against him. I mean, even with IG, LT passed judgement. He did no such thing in SW.

Cause he didn't have to. Like the remember the time that Wolverine didn't kill a little girl, this obviously proves he couldn't. You guys assume that because you take an umbrella it's going to rain. Please reflect on your circular logic and try again.

I have read Secret Wars, and the fact is, Beyonder WAS....NOT...A...THREAT...TO...THE...M...U...L....T....I....V....E...R...S...E...Ever. Period. He was barely a threat to one universe. Marvel even acknowledged this and made the Beyonders to be nothing more than a bunch of Watchers who joined the Hair Club For Men.


LT didn't pass judgment in the IG until everything was already turned upside down. Eternity himself was beaten by Thanos and LT STILL didn't bother to show up. Thus the argument that since Beyonder killed Death and LT didn't show up proves he was scared is absurd. LT knows his job and his place, and his job and place isn't to get involved in every little galactic squabble. He's not a cop.

Good show Wrath. Although I'd go just a bit farther. Killing death Is bar far the most idiotic Idea that I have ever heard of. Where does death go when it's dead? To the realm of Death, unto itself? You might be able to kill some personification of Death (that sounds ever so slightly less absurd.) But then Beyonder even contradicts himself, making himself mortal. How's he suppose to die if there's no death. Everything in the entire universe would have been immortal.

this threat is about the original beyonder now the one from secret wars 3 he defeated everyone he came into contact with with a whim and death and eternity are only the embodiment of what they rule there not the actual thing why do you think LT didnt try to stop Thanos when he was a threat to eternity cause LT thought it would be ok if Thanos became the NEW eternity, the same as death she can die just like eternity can die, he has been comatose, didnt mean that the universe went comatose eighter, The Beyonder was the most powerful character ever made by marvel the LT coudnt stop him and the beyonder DID threaten the universe by destroying it and if other posts he actually did distroy existance for a while so thus the LT didnt di his job and couldnt the LT is not as powerful as beyonder : / sorry guys.

Like the LT the beyonder could have existed on his own reality at the same time he was here and thus the LT didnt nessaceraly have jusidiction on him since he was from as even Galactus stated from BEYOND and killing death is not abserd, umm eternity being made comatoes? you dont think thats abserd? you people are rediculous its a comic the rules are applied however the write wishes them to be applied so? guess what? Living tribunal VS The Beyonder (original version)

winner is THE BEYONDER

Umm... you just used alot of contradicting facts. so i'm gonna let you re-write your post before I make a counter arguement.

I think I know what your trying to say...

Like Lawrence Taylor, Beyonder could exist in his own reality at the same time as Lawrence Taylor didn't have "The Juice" after him since he and Galactus went beyond killing becasue death is absurd, while Eternity is making tomatoes? Is this absurd? You are ridiculous as a comic that applies rules however the writer wishes? Guess what? etc. etc.

Nevermind, I have now idea what you are saying.

Not only is your argument weak *you repeated things I already countered* but you have no concept of complete sentences and punctuation, making your opinions invalid. Fact is, regardless of whether Beyonder was originally from a universe outside LT's jurisdiction, once he enters into our universe, he enters into the jurisdiction of LT. Period. You know, period, that thing you put at the end of sentences...

Lawrence Taylor beats both of them, lol.

Period. Period? Period! Man Wrath, Mercilous, what's with this ramble? Death can't die? You mean like gravity can't be destroyed? Or time can't be destroyed? Death was killed; she ceased to exist. Where did she go? Nowhere, she ceased to EXIST - they're was no death after she was gone. She didn't unfold onto herself self; she was erased out of existence. Furthermore, do you really know that much about death or Marvel's creation of Death? Your trying to apply your knowledge of death on a being such as Death - created by Marvel. Why the hell would she show up to any place - if she's destroyed she's destroyed from existence. And if she wasn't important, why would other beings ask Beyonder not to kill her?

Furthermore, jurisdiciton what? Just 'cause he's got jurisdiction over the Multiverse doesn't mean outsiders are under his jurisdiction. It's the equivalant of saying Odin or Galactus would be under Mephisto's jurisdiction if they entered his realm. Aggamotto's realm is his to control but that didn't give him jurisdiction over Galactus. They were stalemating in their fight, and it only stopped when Oshtur and Hoggoth asked him to stop fighting Galactus as they're fight was wrecking nearby realms. Galactus himself was confused about Aggamotto's mystical realm - it was strange to him. Though Aggamotto had complete control over his realm, using it as a weapon, Galactus still fared well. Aggamotto's juridiction ment nothing to Galactus; even when Aggamotto told him to get out of his realm, Galactus didn't care. And Galactus DIDN'T even resort to absorbing the realm, he was doing fine.

You obviously think way to much of LT's jurisdiction. His jurisdiction doesn't give him an automatic win or power over those in his territory. LT couldn't do a thing. Beyonder threatened to destroy "all existence" if the Celestials didn't act; and when they didn't, he said it in a serious tone (which they took seriously this time) and the entire Celestial race jumped at him like he wanted. He easily blasted them away and kicked them around for fun just 'cause Boom Boom said the Celestials weren't doing or paying "us" (her & Beyonder) any attention.

wrathofchilles making fun of my punctuation and spelling is no excuse for your stupidity you simply dont get the threat i said original beyonder as in before he was a cosmic cube your the one who obviously has no idea what your talking about. The LT himself exists in every reality duh! use your head mr LT expert the Beyonder was from a place beyond the multiverse thus he can be beyond the power of the LT.

I never said Death wasn't capable of dying. I said that Thanos defeated Eternity and that still wasn't enough to get LT off the couch. Destroying Death isn't enough to endanger the entire multiverse, especially when LT knew she would be resurrected. As for jurisdiction, it is NOT the equivalent of Mephisto. Mephisto's realm has physical limits, the multiverse does not. EVERYTHING is under the jurisdiction of the Living Tribunal. You cannot compare him with Mephisto. Nor can you compare him with the Celestials. It's like comparing Galactus with Nova. I'm sick of your 'LT couldn't do a thing' argument. Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. He chose not to do anything, just like he usually chooses not to do anything. If he did, then every story would be over in 1 issue. Doesn't make for a good crossover.

Child, let the grown-ups talk and go to bed. I'm not 'making fun' of anything. I'm stating if you are too incompetent to spell correctly or at least end your sentences then obviously you are not capable of an intellectual debate. That was in addition to my comment that you said nothing of value. You repeated what has already been said a dozen times and I refuted every one of those points. Beyonder came to our universe, ergo he was under the power of LT. Learn to read and write please.

wrathofachlles, you have already lost your argument. The original beyonder is more powerful the the LT thats a fact that you need to except and if you dont like this thread you can stop writing in it your unbelivably annoying with your stupid real life examples this is not a science thread its a comic thread you need to use your tiny peanut sized brain and get that into your head if it fits with out making it explode. Marvel comics can do whatever the hell they want with there comic not you.

In the comics the LT himself said he cant stop the Beyonder so now your just going against everyohe i guess? Galactus said he was from Beyonder the multiverse again you say its not true, i guess that your right and everyone else is wrong.

oh and by the way you sound like the guy who built the matrix save your fancy talk for people less inteligent.

The LT is also in charge of keeping the balance in the multiverse isnt he? Death being distroyed would upset that balace like when galactus died and abraxas almost killed everyone, in ALL the multiverse, im sick of your Juris diction crap the LT falls short since the beyonder did at one point distroy all reality and thus your wrong, thats all there is two it.

Ok, wrathofachilles didn't say death couldn't die.

I DID.

And you want facts, here you go.

1st, Beyonder "kills" death.

2nd, Beyonder makes himself mortal. Do I need to whip out a dictionary or what? He made himself mortal. One more time M O R T A L. He may have been able to "kill" some metaphoric manifestation of death but this in no way means he killed death itself.

3rd, I still have no idea what Mider is talking about, in fact I'm starting to beleive he (or she) has mispelt his name.

I can't take this anymore!!!!!!! Pease learn how to spell Mider, I can't take you seriously.

This is again off subject but you people love going off subject anyway has the juggernaut ever battled The beyonder? And if so what happend?

This happened in Universe/Paradise X. I thought that idea was kinda cool.

Fine, then you answer the question.

I'm just saying. Death was killed in Universe/Paradise X and it was a cool idea. It was an alternate reality though.

And for Marvel's next astonishing feat, WE WILL BRING LIFE TO LIFE!!!!!!

*simpletons everywhere cheer*

Killing Death is retarted. I'm glad some companies realized this <cough> DC <cough>

Lol, silly child. I haven't 'lost' the argument because you haven't produced anything Beyonder hasn't already said. You are useless to this argument. Not just because you cannot spell or punctuate mind you, but because you have actually not contributed anything new to the discussion. Yes Marvel can do whatever the hell they want, and they have said time and time again the Living Tribunal is the most powerful physical entity in the universe *not counting the One.* Did you miss that fact? Evidently. Now go to bed little one. You are a gadfly, nothing more than a mere annoyance.

Exactly.

And what evidence DO YOU HAVE WRATH!?! Your the one going by the bios of LT from Marvel. Those bios aren't always accurate and everyone knows that. It's what's in the comics that counts shrimp, Obviously you don't know do you? Your going by bios and logic and people's spelling & punctuation to say LT would win. Stop picking on Mider, his spelling isn't that bad and lack of puntuations either. I don't see why you can't understand what he wrote. Atleast Mider read the books and is quoting from it unlogic you how tries to apply logic to comics & use Marvel bios as evidence. Half-pint stop picking others when you back your evidence up with bios and nothing from the comics. Don't JUST speculate - prove it.

LT interfered when Eternity brought a case against Warlock & accused him of being unstable & lacked what it took to control the whole universe - that he was a danger to the entire universe. LT agreed and stopped him. LT never interfered with Thanos w/ gauntlet because he never threated to destroy the universe. He didn't even kill Eternity, only put him in a catatomic state then replace Eternity with himself. His goal was to wipe out all life (not the universe) as a gift to his beloved Death to EARN HER LOVE. Furthermore, Death allowed Thanos to find the gems because she felt the universe was unbalanced, more people alive than dead. LT never had a reason to stop Thanos. Beyonder killing Death itself or threating to destroy all existence isn't going to get LT's attention? Please, his threat was real and thus the Celestials attacked him like he wanted. That attacked him to satisfy his wish for them to take attention & not just stand around - this was just to impress Boom Boom who thought the Celestials weren't paying them (her & Beyonder) any attention. It was a real threat - thus they attacked to please his wishes. They NEVER had a chance, except act as his play toy and satisfy his wishes or all existence would be destroyed! Got that Wrath?

And for Marvel's next astonishing feat, they'll make some one fly without wings or propulsion!...oh wait, DC did that with Superman.

...they'll apply the concept of judge, jury, & executioner to a multiversal scale into one being...ooops they've done that, the Living Tribunal.

...they'll allow someone to move faster than light itself...gah damn it, DC did already with Flash & Superman.

...they'll enable someone to control thunder & lightning & call for hurricanes...nope, no need, they've done that with Storm & Thor.

How can Death be destroyed? Well, if something or anything living DIES, Death occurs right Mercilous? What happens when you erase the concept & laws of death? You stop people from dying. If people stopped dying, they're would be no death. Death is just something we living & thinking creates come up with 'cause does a rock know death? I don't see why you can't kill Death or erase her, essentially giving every living thing immortality. Death was killed & will be killable in the future if writters choose. It's a comic book - they're universe is a bit off. I mean c'mon, a pair of glasses can disguise you or you can say some hocus pocus backwards and you can make uncanny things happen. And mutants with super powers? Mutantions alot of the times cause cancer and kill that person. Other times it's a benefit to Natural Selection enabling Evolution to occur. Please stop trying to apply so much logic, Death was killed.

And honestly Mercilous, they've (Marvel, DC, or someone else) may have "brought life to life" before, but we've yet to read it. If not, you can be sure they'll do so in the near future.

How do you know he's short? If he is, how does that affect his argument?



Normally I wouldn't slam his spelling, but this forum does have a spell checker and an edit button...




DC explains this, its a tactile telekinesis thats only limited to himself and what he touches.



Would you have it any other way? This is the cosmos, not Democracy. The last thing we need is checks and balances to determine cosmologic law.



What about Silver Surfer?

Beyonder has his own universe outside of the marvel multiverse, so LT was unable to touch him.

The way it affects Miders spelling or grammar - IT DOESN'T!!! If anyone here's going to rant on off subject & criticize others spelling or whatever the hell, then do it polite and don't call them a little boy or child. I wasn't even refering to Wrath's size by calling him a shrimp; but you're right Abaddon, I don't know his size as Wrath doesn't know Mider's age. Furthermore, Mider presented actual events from the comics and a good case - but all I'm hearing from you, Wrath, & Mercilous is off the subject things. And Wrath, he seems to know more then you on the subject 'cause he seems to have SWI & II.



YEAH! YOUR RIGHT, HIM TOO! He moves faster than light.

*oh, idea*
...for Marvel's next trick they'll give some one the power to tap into the cosmos (even though there are no such damn thing as cosmic powers)...sh!t, again? Dang, Marvel already has guys like those the heralds of Galactus with their power cosmic.

Shrimp? God, you're pathetic. You have no basis in argument other than the fact that Beyonder rules all man. If my thread name was Living Tribunal, then you'd have room to talk, but since it isn't Mr. BEYONDER, keep your mouth shut. The comics did not depict LT as less powerful as Beyonder, plain and simple. The Warlock episode is pointless, I never included that in my argument. Wiping out a great deal of the life in the universe is at least as threatening as whatever Beyonder's idiotic plans were. Furthermore, you evidently are ignorant of English punctuation as well, because Mider's grammar is piss-poor and that fact is as obvious as the day is long. You're only defending him because he's championing your man, lol. He didn't quote a god damn thing. Open your eyes sport. I grow tired of these childish debates. When you can discuss this like a grown-up 'shrimp,' let me know.

You are obviously ignorant of common sense as well. The issue of size has no bearing in this thread. The issue of immaturity does. When someone spells like a 5 year old, he shall be addressed as a five year old, plain and simple. This isn't a sandbox, if people cannot learn to spell simple words and cannot learn to punctuate their sentences, their arguments have no merit. That is not a difficult concept to understand. I can't help that I'm a bit more educated than the likes of you. I certainly won't compromise myself as a result.

And as I said, you're only whining about it because he's repeating your inane ramblings, lol. How utterly transparent.

Wow Wrath, you're so right aren't you? 'Cause you obviously didn't read what I wrote - I myself said "I wasn't even refering to Wrath's size by calling him a shrimp." Your the immature air head around here; you can tell him to correct his spelling but don't b!tch like a little wienner about it. What the hell happened Wrath? Did the Joker let the convicts out of Arkam again? *Somebody quickly call Batman* !Wrath is on the loose!

Furthermore, again, you don't address the issue at hand with the evidence presented. I ain't championing anything; Mider had a point - and all you can do is run your mouth about him being a child 'cause his of his writting. It ain't that bad - or are you just that illerate for some damn reason? If you can respond to what I saying, you can certainly understand what Mider wrote. Stop making it such an issue. Funny how you call him a child when you have no concept of proof except bios from Marvel and logic which you try and apply to comic books? Or are you just one of those geezers who don't have anything to do but read from bios and make arguments based off of that?

As for Warlock, I used it as evidence to show why LT took actions against Warlock and Thanos. Hell, you yourself brought Thanos up and used him as evidence for why LT "didn't act" according to you. And yet I can't. Hocus pocus hypocratus isn't it Wrath? AGAIN, Mider seems to have read the issues - DID YOU READ BOTH SW I & II? You don't even seem to know what you're arguing against.

Keep it civil in here. Don't make it personal.

Then adress this, because you completely ignored it the first time around.

Beyonder kills death.

Beyonder makes himself mortal (capable of dying.)

1. either death is not dead and he's only destroyed some metamorphical manifestation of death, which makes you wrong.

2. Death is dead and all are immortal making all of beyonders ploys pointless.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the meaning of 'immature.' Let us embark upon a lesson shall we? When you call people names: you are immature. When you explain to someone that if they cannot spell or write in complete sentences with proper punctuation and grammar, then their arguments are invalid: that is not immature. That is trying to teach children that if they are not going to present themselves as educated individuals, then they cannot enter into an adult conversation. Learn the difference sport.

Also, I have never quoted any Marvel bio, I didn't even read them for this debate. Nor did I read SW II, I never said I did. But if you look closely, I never argued anything regarding Secret Wars II! I never mentioned Warlock, you did! This is SW I Beyonder vs. LT. I don't care if you bring up Warlock, but that's not the issue. The issue if you claiming LT couldn't act, and I refuted that by pointing out he COULD act but he didn't, ex. Thanos.

http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/beyonder.htm
http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/livingtribunal.htm

This thread is about the Original beyonder VS the LT you moron, or are you to stupid to see the title of this page? it has in little words next to Beyonders name from secret wars your totally embarressing yourself i may have bad punctuation but at least i dont rave my stupidities over and over and over you have no proof you have no evidence you just put it yourself i never read secret wars i never read any bios those were your words, people if anyone else is getting annoyed with Wrath i suggest he leaves this thread already or im just going to have the mods kick him and if any of you feel the same you can do the same.

PEOPLE YOU ALL NEED TO RELEAX AND BREATH

Don't bash other members. Keep on topic as well.

Don't threaten me sport. I'm not resorting to simple name-calling, I'm telling you that if you can't spell and use proper grammar than I'm not going to bother acknowledging your posts. That's not against the rules, you don't like it? Learn to write properly. Secondly, where you got the idea that I have no proof is absurd. You have no proof of your argument either. That's why this is called a DEBATE. Fact is it's been stated that Living Tribunal was the most powerful entity. Fact is Beyonder did not accomplish anything to warrant him being more powerful than LT. Fact is LT has proven time and time again he can do anything he wishes by a wave of a hand BUT that he does not ever do so unless he deems it absolutely necessary. At least I have used actual comic instances and logic to back up my argument, you have done nothing but follow Beyonder around repeating his rantings. You haven't used any information to back up your opinion, so save your little threats for someone who's impressed. Not even close here sport.

That information should be sufficient to end this debate. 'Nuff said.

SECRET WARS VERSION

Offical Beyonder

Beyonder as recorded in the Secret Wars 2 MSH module. Note that his stats as a cosmic cube (after the wars is about equal to his final state, with CL1000 reality manipulation).
"Original state"
Fighting: Beyond
Agility: Beyond
Strength: Beyond
Endurance: Beyond
Reason: Beyond
Intuition: Beyond
Psyche: Beyond
Health: Not applicable
Karma: Unlimited
Resources: Unlimited
Popularity: Not aplicable

Living Tribunal
Cosmic Entity

Fighting: CL5000
Agility: CL5000
Strength: CL5000
Endurance: CL5000
Reason: CL5000
Intuition: CL5000
Psyche: CL5000

Health: Infinite
Karma: Infinite
Resources: Infinite
Popularity: 0

Known Powers:
Invulnerability: The Living Tribunal has Beyond protection against all physical, energy, psionic and magical attacks.
Omni-Power: The Living Tribunal is the most powerful known being in existence. He can use any listed Power or Stunt with CL5000 ability, though he rarely does so.

Quite right supremthor, quite right.

were is the beyonders powers Wrath? You put the LT's but were are the beyonders? His powers were stated in your little "proof" to be omnipatent. You have lost your agrument geez move on.

Beyonder

Known powers:
Omnipotence: Until "his" apparent destruction, the Beyonder was sum total of power of its entire univers. As such he was limited only by the restrictions he placed on him self. The beyod could create and destroy matter as he chose. He could Heal any and all damage to himself and while taking the visible effects of damage, could immediately heal himself and others. He could negate any poison, correct any fault, and restore to life any being whose astral spirit was still available.

Weakness
According to Reed Richards, the beyonder powers had one weakness; the beyonder could not create a paradox in time. If he attempted to do so he would destroy the universe, himself included. this restriction was never tested and is only a theory

This is not a debate its a fact that The Beyonder from the original secret wars I and II was more powerful then the Living Tribunal i have presented facts, everyone in here but you has. Even comic strips.

Do any of you wonder if wrath is the LT in disguise? I mean maybe thats why he keeps on raving on and on cause he cant admit to losing : / im sorry LT please except my apologyes for the Beyonder having made you wet your pants, im also sorry that you failed at protecting one of the Universes under your protection from Korvac when he distroyed it. Failure is a heavy burden.

Im really sorry about that last post its wrong to compare the LT to wrath i mean at least the LT has common sense, while wrath does not even have a one foot to stand on. True sadness :*( Once again sorry LT.

All those posts could have gone in one.

-AC

Yeah mider, that's pretty rude.

And Lt's stats are clearly listed, did you even bother to look? Plus supremthor put like 2 or 3 different links for you to look at.

And none of your facts are relevant, as everything you've listed are things that Thanos has done, which LT stopped easily as soon as he felt Thanos threatened the universe.

umm i did check thats why i ADDED the powers all of beyonders powers were listed and ranked as beyond but as for known powers: it stated what i put omnipatence. Did you bother to check his links?

You are obviously misinterpreting "Beyond."

And by the way good work on ever so slightly improving the grammer. Your 3rd grade teacher would be proud.

Seriously, do you have a learning disability? I didn't post LT's powers, I simply said he can do what he wishes with a wave of his hand. Beyonder has the ability to think his goals into existence, but those goals are NOT on a multiverse level. They are a galactic level, not even a UNIVERSAL level.

That 'weakness' part should tell you something Midie-boy. Beyonder has a weakness. Living Tribunal does not. LT can create any paradoxes he so desires, thereby nullifying the entrance of Beyonder into HIS multiverse. You cannot defeat God *or he who has God's power.*

Silly child, you cannot win. Bedtime. Now. Go. Shhhh.

LETS SAY ITS A TIE SO THAT EVERYONES HAPPY

I know you want everyone to be happy , but...

I'm going to side with Living Tribunal. He's the highest manifestation of power in the Marvel Universe.

The LT I mean wrath is back!!!!! blushes sorry for the confusion the Beyonder is not misinterpreted it was from the same page wrath used for his proof he just disqualified himself for all i care. And im not the one who is so incompetent as to not see the name of the thread wrath so maybe you should get yourself checked for that disorder? How funny you can read my posts and give a rebutle since my grammer is so bad my grammer maybe bad but its not half as bad as your lack of common sense.

You've actually reached the point of nonsensical arguing with yourself. You can't be arguing with me, because what the hell are you talking about I cannot see the name of the thread? I see it fine thanks. And trust me kid, if I was the LT, I'd have removed you from existence the first time you typed your inane toddler babbling. You still haven't improved your grammar. I cannot fathom how you think you deserve respect when you cannot put a sentence together. Talk like a grown-up, cease the childish insults, and we'll discuss this like men and disagree with each other without resorting to 'you obviously never read the comic if you think so and so will win.' It's opinion, and my opinion happens to be supported by the vast majority of people posting here. Fact is, your opinion is wrong, but can still be respected if presented in a respectable way.

Well said.

well the beyonder's "weakness" was only a hypothesis, it was never put to the test, but since we are talking about weaknesess here, korvak managed to defy the living tribunal's gudgement, now what i wonder, would u call that other than a weakness. anyway, in terms of power levels, LT has all his stats at cl5000 rank, and ONLY his protection from physical and energy attacks is at a BEYOND level, but the original beyonder had ALL his stats at the BEYOND LEVEL, before marvel decided that he should be a cosmic cube. so whose stronger, beyonder or LT.

Korvak is not Beyonder.

yea i didnt say he was, hes just your average hardly even subcosmic guy, but if HE managed to get away with defying the all powerful{in ur terms} LT, then that proves that LT does indeed have weaknesses and is not all powerful.

What story was Korvak in? And it was marvels words, not mine.

How is supremthor quite right? He's getting this info from a Marvel Heroes Classic Roleplaying Game. This information ISN'T even ACCURATE; furthermore, this bio incomporates the RECONNING OF BEYONDER as well.
History:
The Beyonder was discovered to be an incomplete cosmic cube. The ability to alter reality in a solar system, but nowhere near the level of universe or even galaxy destruction as originally represented (see original stats below). All those things like that the Beyonder did where illusion, a cube has vast illusion powers as well as reality manipulation and can appear far more powerful than it really is.

We're talking about the original Beyonder from SW I & II - there's a difference. This isn't evidence to anything.

I mean Fighting: CL1000? What's that? How do they know?
Agility: CL1000? Huh?
Strength: CL1000?
Endurance: CL3000? Measured by WHAT?
Reason: CL1000? What the hell is reason? How'd they measure that?
Intuition: CL1000 Say what?
Psyche: CL3000 You've got to be kidding me!
Health: 6000 So is this Dragon Ball Z or something; I thought Beyonder was a Marvel creation.
Karma: Unlimited Karma? Isn't karma luck?
Resources: Un
Popularity: 0
Your going to go by THIS about the Beyonder? Please!

Here's a little they wrote about LT.
Known Powers:
Invulnerability: The Living Tribunal has Beyond protection against all physical, energy, psionic and magical attacks.
Omni-Power: The Living Tribunal is the most powerful known being in existence. He can use any listed Power or Stunt with CL5000 ability, though he rarely does so.

LT's Power at Class 5000? You're all going to go by this to compare Beyonder and LT. This site is a game site. Please don't hold it up as EVIDENCE TO ANYTHING.

And Wrath, you admitted to not reading SW II. Well, SWII is where Beyonder demonstrated alot of his powers and shows you where he ranks in the cosmic hierarchy. If you haven't read, how can you say, with a straight face to Mider (who read SW I & II), that LT is more powerful than the original Beyonder?

Wrath

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the meaning of 'immature.' Let us embark upon a lesson shall we? When you call people names: you are immature. When you explain to someone that if they cannot spell or write in complete sentences with proper punctuation and grammar, then their arguments are invalid: that is not immature. That is trying to teach children that if they are not going to present themselves as educated individuals, then they cannot enter into an adult conversation. Learn the difference sport.

Duh! You called him a child. That's not being immature Wrath. You don't even know his age, yet you refer to him as "child" based on his writing. Now you're trying to bs your way out of it, are you serious? You're the one who's being "immature" and unfamiliar with the term. You don't have to be an A$$ about it or call him a child, just tell him to use better spell or you won't reply to his post.

Also, I have never quoted any Marvel bio, I didn't even read them for this debate. Nor did I read SW II, I never said I did. But if you look closely, I never argued anything regarding Secret Wars II! I never mentioned Warlock, you did! This is SW I Beyonder vs. LT. I don't care if you bring up Warlock, but that's not the issue. The issue if you claiming LT couldn't act, and I refuted that by pointing out he COULD act but he didn't, ex. Thanos.

1] The Original Beyonder was featured in both SW I & II. In I, alot was explained about him; in II, his powers and origins were EXPLAINED EVER FURTHER! How can you argue that he can't compare to LT if you're only basing this on SWI? You're only getting HALF THE STORY by doing that.

2] And why didn't act regarding Thanos? Because Thanos' goal was to kill life - NOT end the universe. LT ACTED against Warlock (who wielded the SAME POWER) because Warlock's past/origins made him unfit to wield power that could destroy the universe. Eternity made this case before LT and LT AGREED with that assesment THUS HE ACTED. He told Warlock if Warlock RESISTED - their fight could destroy the universe. Thus Warlock gave in. If Thanos was a threat to the universe - NOT just LIFE - LT would've acted as well. Beyonder threatened to destroy all existence just to get the Celestials to act - he was toying with them. Every cosmic being knew the Beyonder was a threat to all existence - non could do a thing including LT. If he could, he would've.



Him making himself mortal isn't about the ability to die. Thor is a god, Thanos is a Titan, Surfer is a herald, non of these individuals are considered mortal, right? Yet they all can die - Thanos has. Thor & other gods can die too. Furthermore, would you also consider them to be immortal to a CERTAIN degree. Now let's continue...

...being mortal is often meant as being human or human level. Thor often refers to humans as mortals. In SW I, Beyonder had NO FORM. In SW II, he took a human form & went to Earth to experience emotions. When he makes himself MORTAL, he isn't trying himself vulnerable to death; he was trying to become more human. He wanted to know what being a human being felt like - not just look like a human. It was all about experiencing human emotions. He himself said he was able to retain all his powers despite turning into an ordinary mortal - that's how power he was. Mortal means human in this case, not vulnerability to death (mortality). Everything is SW II was about experiencing new things/emotions and learning what his role is.

Additionally Mercilous, Thanos w/ the Gauntlet something similar. When he fought the heroes, he turned off every gems power, except the power gem. He still retained all the power of the entire IG but didn't have access to all but one. Thus it improved the heroes chances and was a way for him to impress Death.

how do these threads get closed?

thread starter should request so to the moderator *me*

Right Wrath, sure Wrath, whatever Wrath. The Gauntlet's power was over one universe and was not a threat to the multiverse. LT interfered because Warlock was a danger to the ONE UNIVERSE he was in - not the entire universe. Eternity presented his case against Warlock to LT and LT agreed - Warlock was a danger to the universe. LT was willing to battle it out with Warlock stating that it would result in the destroy of the universe if they were to struggle over the Gauntlet and what supreme god (of one universe) would Warlock be if he resisted. Thus Warlock agree to relinquish his might. However, Warlock had the right to give the gems to whom he wished, against Eternity's wishes (who wanted the Gauntlet for himself). Again, LT acted because ONE universe was endangered, not the multiverse.

Furthermore, Beyonder threatened to destroy existence just to get the Celestials to act. If Beyonder wasn't able to destroy the existence, you REALLY THINK the Celestials would've taken action as the Beyonder WANTED? They acted because they knew would and could. By acting/fighting they gave him what HE WANTED and SPARED the universe. Why didn't LT interfere? 'Cause he couldn't. He never he any power over the Beyonder throughout SW II. He was among the other cosmic deity who couldn't do a thing.

Much like regular Thor was able to injure Galactus during his encounter with Ego, the definition of a character's power changes with time. I observed only mentionings of Living Tribunal's name before the Infinity Gauntlet series, but I'm surmising he was depowered during the 80's to give leeway for Secret Wars.

During the early to late 90's, Living Tribunal was once considered one (if not THE) highest force in the Marvel universe. Then came that DC/Marvel crossover that threw in the mix the brothers who were claimed to be beyond even him.

If we are associating the current Living Tribunal with the 80's Beyonder, then Living Tribunal would be classified as powerful enough to will him out of existence.

LT wasn't depowered anything. And LT in the 90's stated himself that if Warlock with the Gauntlet was to resist, their struggle for the Gauntlet would destroy the universe. If LT could've snapped his fingers and taken it, he wouldn't have stated that to Warlock in front of all the cosmic deities. LT doesn't just snap his fingers and his wishes comes true. The Gauntlet can do the exact thing, however, LT is more power - BUT not powerful enough to just snap his fingers and expect the Gauntlet wielder to loose the Gauntlet or die. He didn't will Warlock anything, just logical convinced Warlock to give up that power rather than end the universe through their struggle.

The universe, not the multiverse.

because this topic has been discussed soo long and i have posted here before ill just say that he rules the tribunal's ass. tribunal has jurisdiction on everything in the multiverse, but the beyonder wasnt from the multiverse, he was from the beyond realm, and was therefore beyond the bouns, rules, restrictions and effetcts of the entire multiverse, that is why the tribunal had and even in his current state, would have no power over him, i believe that earlier in this thread, some one posted a page of a comic where galactus clearly defines the beyonder as out of this MULTIVERSE, so there you go, problem solved, thrad closed, end of story.
but im sure this threads gonna go on, some people just arent willing to let go of their point of view.

LT's powers weren't defined well enough in the 80s. He was more of a mystery.

lion, you're not reading what I said. Beyonder is FROM the beyond, but when he ENTERS the multiverse of the LT, he IS under the rules of LT. That is end of your story, not the end of the story. There's a major difference. Anything physical entering this multiverse automatically comes under the rules and boundaries of the multiverse, that's a scientific fact. Anyone can argue all day 'Marvel can do whatever they want in comic books' and yeah that's the case, but you know what, I can argue the Captain Universe Spider-Man could beat them both, and you can't argue against me because they didn't face each other. Point is, I'm not stupid enough to argue that, because I recognize the obvious fact that God is God. You cannot be more powerful. Period.

Problem solved, thread cosed, end of story.

a black hole doesnt go under the rules of science but it exists in the universe....so i guess not everything is bound by rules and jurisdiction, just like the Beyonder was not bound by the LT.

Oh i guess that when an invading army goes into another country its under the jurisdiction of that govenment great example Wrath geez give it up already.

I'm not sure about this whole jurisdiction thing but the Living Tribunal was a little concerned about The Starbrand because it came from another reality.

Uh, a black hole is part of the scientific world. It is simply a collapsed Supernova Type II with such an incredible amount of mass that it forms a 'hole' in the fabric of space. The gravitational pull of the collapsed star is so great that it is capable of sucking all matter, including light, into its event horizon. There's nothing unscientific about it. Scientists have been full aware of the properties of black holes for 20 years now. Where the hell have you been?

Countries don't have the power to snap their fingers and will anyone and anything out of said country.

pfft what science page did you go to find that house wrath? I know you did it still doesnt matter you dont know whats inside the black hole :P and no its not totally know why it happens and a nova explodes dosent it? We are talking about jurisdiction not power The Beyonder was not under the LT"s juridiction or power.

Yes he was. Here let me try to argue like you so that you might understand.

pfft. Everything that Beyonder did was mostly an illusion. How can you acknowledge Secret wars I but not II and II and V and XII, where they clearly further explain the beyonders powers. Beyonder was so full of himself that he wants you to beleive everything he said no matter how much he was bsing both you and him.

Marvel can do whatever they want, this sometimes has nothing to do with science. Marvel did do what they want, and they said that Beyonder in Secret Wars ! was no where near as powerful as he seemed. They also said that LT was the most powerful being there was no matter what they wrote in the past.

And by the by, beyonder didn't kill death, mortal means mortal, not whatever the hell you're talkiing about. Unless beyonder your almighty champion somehow doesn't have access to a dictionary (real poweful my eye.)

This thread is about the Original beyonder not the illuion casting one thats why i dont need to acknowledge oh and wrath, one question if LT is so powerful and is supposed to protect and blah blah blah how come he never stoped the Infinites? who were trying to merge all the energies in all realities and thus kill a few countless people. And yes they were seconds away from doing it i didnt see an LT around.

He can see all events future and past. If you knew anything about LT you'd know this too. There's no reason to stop an unsuccessful attempt.

And are you saying that it was a different Beyonder?

Yes mercilous it was a diffrent Beyonder the other one was an incomplete comsmic cube but the original was the sum total of his universe, I think you guys give to much credit to the LT i know he is powerful but you guys make him to powerful he has never done anything that has gone so far as to make him as powerful as you all say, Korvac Saga is a great example Korvac grew to a level of power so great that all the beings that the LT sent after him as in galactus, grandmaster, master order, lord chaos, the shaper of worlds, the stranger, the watcher was involved to an unknown extent, as well as the inbetweener, every single force that went up against korvac was killed and its powers absorbed the LT finally had to step in and try and distroy Korvac himself by causing the sun to go nova but even that was unsucessful Korvac protected himself and the LT just decided to get the hell out of there, and seal that universe off from all the others, Korvac then took the ultimate nulifier that was used to kill galactus and nulified the universe and himself, only three people survived one who's name escapes me for the moment but for sure the other two were, Dr Strange, and the Phoenix. You can all say what you want about the LT he probably is greater then any single force in the universe but as for a combined total of a universe in a single being, i dont think so. The Beyonders universe was from beyonder the multiverse and was thus even greater in power then your average universe, why? cause it simply was i mean he did threaten to distroy the universe and he probably could have the LT never steped in to stop Beyonder like he did Korvac in any case the LT could not stop the Beyonder and further more when it came to Korvac the LT failed at protecting a universe under his "jurisdiction"

Oh and mercilous it was not an unseccesful attemp by the infinites, they changed there minds thats all there is to it. I still never saw the LT around.

first of all, when discussing comic books, u shouldnt look too much at physics, cause most of the time, the writers dont think much about them, true that in the real universe, anything that is part of EXISTANCE, be it matter, energy, space, time, gravity or zero point energy from hyperspace. but that wasnt true in the marvel universe and secret wars 1 and 2. and indeed the beyonder wasnt part of this universe or multiverseeven when he was in this universe. anyway, another thing is that the tribunal IS NOT GOD, he serves the marvel GOD.


on a side note, black holes are not completely explained in any sense, infact most OF WHAT WE DO KNOW ABOUT THEM IS ALSO THEORY, but for the most part, they remain unexplained, hell did u know that something as simple as the physics of a simple tornadoe or whirlpool or also theoretical right now. so we shouldnt be too sure about just something that we read in a book or the net about science.

*be it matter, space energy, time, gravity, or zero point energy from hyperspace, is part of the universe. but this was not true in the marvel....................................................................

Kid, I've studied astronomy probably since before you were born, surely since before you could read. I don't get my information from my high school textbook. You really don't want to get into a scientific debate with me sport. I'll tolerate *to a point* your rambling about a comic book character, but I'll rip you to shreds if you think I'll allow you to discuss science or history with me on an equal level. Not going to happen.

I didn't say they were completely explained. Few things in the astronomical world are completely explained, including the Earth itself. Of course much of it is theory, but it's accepted theory, meaning scientists are open to differing points of view but what's known now is expected to be the case. Just as the Big Bang is accepted *though it's losing ground*, but still theory. I don't read my science on the internet, lol, that would be quite foolish.

Stop calling me kid, at least im not a know it all A$$-hole who cant even give up a lost battle.

rolls eyes your arragance is pathetic Wrath, there is no longer a debate in this forum about who is the more powerful character, The Beyonder could clearly win, how funny you gave a rebutle to my sciecnt talk but not to the more important example about Korvac. Did i mention your a d**k head?

no bashing!

if you have an opinion on any member here, state so through private message system. Don't do it on the board. Never.

Living Tribunal (or any other character) will not be illustrated to fix every problem that happens in the Marvel Universe, otherwise that defeats the purpose of a storyline.

Perhaps it was the writers' mistake to even make LT beyond a cosmic judge as his placement leaves many to wonder why he doesn't engage on an issue himself - whether it be unconcern or another factor.

As to the emphasis of scientific reasoning behind the abilities described in comics, writers may acknowledge certain factors, such as the "grandfather paradox" with Legion killing Professor Xavier (he therefore ceased to exist and started the AOA series), but other ones are left to pure fictious feats (undescribed ability of flight).

first off it is very important that we never confuse real science with comic book science. with regards to beyonder, i alwys understood that his body or another beyonder's for that matter is an entire reality unto itself. so that means all the beyonders' bodies combined is what makes the "beyond" realm. we dont know if this realm just happened upon itself or TOAA him/it/herself created to mind f*ck everybody, including LT ,all we know that the "beyond" realm exists independently of the multiverse. We also know that LT has jursidiction over the entire multiverse. Therefore, it is logical to assume that providing that the Beyonder remains outside the multiversal time/space continuum he will be "beyond" the influence of LT(pun intended)

as we have learned in the Earth/Paradise/Universe X series. whenever somebody time travels it just creates another alternate universe for mephisto to escape into. seeing as how there are myriads of time travelers in the MU, it is also logical to assume that with each new created reality LT's power concievably grows.(maybe thats strecthing it a bit)

so at the end of the day we can say that if the beyonder ventures into the time/space that LT governs, he will fall under his jurisdiction, whether or not LT can will him out of existence we dont know but at least he could still have some time of influence over him