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Based solely on ability (no weapons or powers except Stick & DD senses). Here's the Fighter's Hierarchy in the Marvel Universe

1. Stick
2. Captain America
3. Black Panther (should actually be tied with Cap but no ties here)
4. Wolverine (relies too much on claws and healing to be any higher)
5. Shang Chi
6. Daredevil
7. Bullseye
8. Elektra (edges out Betsy because she doesn't use telepathy)
9. Psylocke
10. Ironfist
11. Silver Samurai
12. Punisher
13. Blade (can't be any higher without his swords)
14. Batroc
15. Moon Knight
16. Night Thrasher

I know it's wrong. lol.

There's one guy who can mimic anyone else's fighting style and use it on a whim...he was an Avengers villain, can't remember his name....he' supposed to be one of the best...

You forgot Sabretooth, Cable, and Conan

I'm not saying my list is better than your Krissy, but this is just my opinion on the hierarchy. I omitted Stck and Black Panther because I know little about them.


1. Captain America
2. Wolverine
3. Sabretooth
4. Conan
5. Shang Chi
6. Cable
7. Omega Red
8. Maverick
9. Dardevil
10. Iron Fist
11. Elektra
12. Punisher

Picoico, his name is Taskmaster. I'm assuming he didn't make Krissy's list because his fighting style relies on his mutant photographic memory. Krissy is only allowing Stick and Daredevil to use their powers. He is incredible though, considering he can fight exactly like anybody he has faced before.

What are Sticks powers?

Not totally sure, I think they are the same as Daredevil. For instance, super hearing, touch, smell, and the radar sense that allows him to "see" in a 360 degree perimeter around him.

Three Weapon X'ers and Omega Red in the top 10, Abaddon? Not sure about that.

Well, Wolverine, Sabretooth, and Maverick were the best of the best in Weapon X. Wolverine and Sabretooth are where they should be but I may let Maverick slide a notch or two. These 3 people were chosen because they had superior fighting skills and they aged slow. All 3 have many years of experience. Omega Red is the russian super-soldier. He has extensive KGB training and his super-endurance lets him train very hard. He was trained to be the best also. I drew these conclusions based on the Marvel card sets I own and just overall reading. In every card set that I have, Wolvie, Cap, Cable, Sabes, Maverick, and Omega Red have a maxed out stat for fighting ability. Omega Red and Maverick may be second rate characters but you gotta give the devil his due.

wolverine isn't that high up, even with healing and claws included

My list.

1. Shang Chi
2. the Cat
3. Iron Fist (about equal with the Cat, but no ties as aforementioned)
4. Stick
5. Taskmaster (he's not a mutant, he just has an uncanny ability, would you deny Batman his detective skills?)
6. Eric Killmonger--Panther foe whom T'Challa has never been able to best in combat
7. Black Panther
8. Captain America
9 Daredevil
10 Elektra
11 Wolverine
12 Deadpool
13 Batroc
14 Black Widow
15 Psylocke
16 Bullseye
17 Silver Samurai
18 Moon Knight
19 Maverick
20 Night Thrasher

Scarlet Spider, there's no need to even mention Batman. If Taskmaster was a mutant, there would be no correlation between his abilities and Batman's detective skills. Obviously, the problem is that I was mistaken about Taskmaster. If you are certain that he has no powers, then I will take your word for it. I very appreciative of your correction and the new found knowledge you have bestowed me.

I would understand if he were to be removed from the list however, as his talent/ability is not something that an ordinary guy can train at and acquire. But yes, he is just a baseline human.

In no way is Wolvie or even Cap higher than Shang Chi. Stick is 3 at best. Chi is the highest, no question. I like Scarlet's list, I agree with the top 10, but I'd put Bullseye at about 11.

Well, if Taskmaster mimic ability is just an uncanny talent, he deserves to be there, considering Captain America is stronger and faster than everybody on the list due to a serum he took(cheating punk).

..and moving...

Shang Chi
Cap
Conan
Wolvie
Cable
Sabertooth

I ommited many, but i think these should go in this order

I like Shang Chi but being the master of kung fu doesn't automatically mean being number 1. There are plenty of other fighting styles that can put the kibosh on a martial artist - UFC.

While that was Shang Chi's catch phrase, he was indeed much more than "The Master of Kung Fu"

yup shang chi is the best.

shang chi
stick
black panther
cap
daredevil
wolvie
iron fist

I don't think Conan should be put on the list. He never really appeared in continuity with any of the characters, and he was only a licensed character. The Howard estate has since withdrawn the right for Marvel to use him, and gotten a hunk o' money from Dark Horse.

Wow, that's not honest, I think. No weapons, okay, but no powers ? Captain America has superpowers, you know. Same for Black Panther, Wolverine, Bullseye (if you include his adamantium skeleton, which will influence his fighting style), Iron Fist, Moon Knight...

So all these people have to be deleted from the list

Unfortunately, so many characters have additional abilities that a human wouldn't have (e.g. Stick with his absorbing abilities), so my list would be greatly reduced based on the requirements.

Shang Chi
Stick (w/o absorbing)
Daredevil
Elecktra
Human Fly
Silver Sable/Black Widow

Gambit is a good fighter, but I believe his agility is strongly based on his mutant powers also (Rogue said his mutant powers include natural agility).

I was thinking the same, Who kid. Many of Krissy's fighters have powers. Most would probably be ranked lower, but Captain America? If he didn't have the serum? Heh, the only list you would see him on is for registered voters.

I compiled my list regardless of powers, just natural fighting prowess. Panther's herbs just enhance his natural abilties, they don't pump him up from Erkel to Hulk Hogan proportions. "Stripped naked and dripping wet, he is still one of the most dangerous men in the world." -- Falcon...which reminds me, he should be on that list too. Hm.

Moon Knight's strenght waxes and wanes, you could just pick him on a day with no moon, he's just a regular guy, but he still goes out to fight the good fight. Nighthawk's powers only activate at night, and as he was originally a powerless Batman copy he should probably be on this list as well...damn my incompetence. But the Cat beat's em all. "SHOW ME THE TATTOO!!!" *rips off shirt* "Totally Fonzie...."

Why is deadpool not on there? He beat Cap and TM. Pfft. His healing factor works, but he also trained himself to endure massive amounts of pain.

Don't forget to put Nightcrawler who can use his arms legs and tail.

Conan not on the list? Come on now, him and weapon master (one of his arch nemisis) are gods with all sorts weapons. This includes everything from there fist and rocks to basically any weapon that was available to them. They have interacted with marvel characters in alternate story lines such as what if. Conan fights both Wolverine and gets a win on both of them (in both occasions they're one and one.)

To say Captaim America doesn't belong on that list is ludicrous. He's mastered so many forms of martial arts and has gone toe to toe with basically everyone who deserves to be on this list.

And powers don't make the fighter. Take away Cap's shield and his enhanced strength and everything the super soldier serum gave him and he still belongs on this list. Take away Wolvies adamantium and his healing factor and he still belongs on this list. If it isn't strictly fighting abilty then i can just say Thor's the best fighter cause he's got Odin force and blah blah blah.

Anyway, we all seem to agree that Shang Chi is the best, so let's decide who's second best. Sounds like a natural course of action no?

Well, Cap's advantage over the other fighters on the list is so slight, it's negligible. Black Panther's not going to win any strongest man in the world competitions. And Bullseye's not gonna be hitting anyone with his spine, and he has no weapons so his accuracy isn't going to help him. Wolverine's claws and healing have been removed for this fight. Ironfirst doesn't have his knockout punch. Moon Knight will only be using his mercenary skills. Stick doesn't have his absorbing powers, only his enhanced senses (without senses, he can't fight).

It's based solely on fighting ability.

Senses don't count as part of fighting ability. If they did it would put Spider Man on the list. He's practically untouchable. Take em away and he couldn't brawl worth squat.

Daredevil's and Stick's are more of an extension of the five senses. Spider sense is an extra power, more like intuition, that doesn't fall into the five senses.

A radar sense is much more than just "an extension of the five senses." That's a whole new sense, just like the spider-sense.

I assume you know Venom and Carnage, right ? Two of the most dangerous and deadly Spider-Man villains ever.

Well, I'll tell you a secret : Spider-Man fights them without his spider-sense.

master
shang chi
stick
deadpool{wo healing factor}
captain america
black panther
daredevil
wolverine{without adamantium or healing facor}

hey and most of them ilke captain america, master and black panther have only been enhanced to the human max, but they are NOT superhuman. but stick and daredevil have to have their radar senses because they cant fight blind, and stick also said that anyone can build a radar sense if they train themselves right.

anyway master is such a great hand to hand combatant and his knowledge of manipulating pressure points on a body is so great that although he can only lift around 800lbs with difficulty, he still managed to knock namor the submariner unconcience, and namor can lift around 90 tons.

Shang Chi
Iron Fist
Captain America
Daredevil

Hey, Krissy, is this thread about who has the best fighting technique and skill? Or is the list about who would win their fights without weapons and powers?

Actually maybe Wolverine might deserve to be back on the list even if he was denied his abilities.

Without reliance of his mutant powers and adamantium, he would fight differently (e.g. not run directly into a fray of flying bullets).

He has had plenty of experience in various techniques (even if he can't remember where he got them) and he still gave Lady Deathstrike little workout when he lost his healing abilities and adamantium.

Conan is badass. I'm not refuting that. I'm just saying he shouldn't be on a Marvel list. He's not Marvel anymore, and he predates the company by a decade. They lost the right to his domain along with that of Fu Manchu (who is Shang Chi's father), Doc Savage and others awhile ago. On a list of ultimate fighting badasses, I'd definatly put him right up there.

Ok, I'm not going to argue on him not being in the company no more. I guess that pretty much disqualifies him.

But Shang Chi is for sure #1.

I don't know anything about stick, but powers really don't count as fighting ability. If they did i'd be argueing Galactus.

And Wolvie would definitely be near the top. And Cap would be above him.

Make no mistake though, I do love Conan, he's just not under the umbrella anymore. Have you ever checked out Solomon Kane? He was one of Howard's earlier creations, he had some great stories.

No but thanks for the tip I'll be sure to check it out. What do you think of Kull?

Anyway why do people keep putting down Wolvie and Cap? If they had no powers what so ever they could still be top grade heros on their fighting ability alone. Just very different heros.

That's the difference between them and people who rely on their powers. Spidey would be a nerd at a science fair. I don't know enough about stick to comment except for his seemingly silly name. Iron fist ends up second grade without his knockout punch.

Wait, Wolverine would still be dangerous without being a mutant and not having an adamantium skeleton. But, if the good captain did not have the serum, he would not be able to beat up any heroes. He wouldn't be able to beat up any civilians.

Your completely mistaken. Captain America is just as good if not a better fighter than Wolverine.

He may have as good as technique, but if the serum was somehow taken from his body(i know its not possible), the good captain would way about 100lbs. No strength or speed.

Technique was all i was talking about, but come on! 100 pounds! He was a soldier before the super soldier project too.

I agree with Scarlet Spider's list for the most part. But just as a quick comment -- Kilmonger will fall to T'Challa...he's just got some issues with his baby's momma right now, yo. But he'll handle that when he's ready.

I just don't understand why everyone ommits Cable from the list. His hand-to-hand skills are on the same level as Wolvie, and they both know this.

Cable doesn't have the recognition that Wolverine has developed as a major fan favorite over the years. He probably never will which is how I personally prefer it. He's got the hand-to-hand skills there but not exactly on the level compared to say -- Stick. Just an opinion.

Probably because he's always shown either using his powers or some weaponry, if his hand to hand fighting ability was showcased more he'd probably get the recognition.

When he was first created his fighting prowess was showcased. It's only within the last 6 to 7 years or so that his powers have even been seen. If you look back to New Mutants comics he was always battling it out with Wolverine hand to hand. And there are many other instances in which he does. I think it has more to do with favoritism than anything. He's just not a marketable character. Besides it doesn't help his case being co-created by the craptastic Rob Liefeld.

Mercilous, are you saying that the good captain would still be able to kick butt, despite only weighing about 100lbs? Or are you saying that he will weight alot more than 100lbs without the serum? I thought when he took the serum he only weighed 98lbs? Am I wrong? Have the cap facts changed since I last read? Somebody give me a hand please. Sorry, If I created confusion.

He wasn't a soldier before he took the serum, he was a weak little bastard. Pfft.

Deadpool = Captain America. Read any comic with both of them in it, they trade blows and are just about the same level, until DP roshambos CA

It doesn't matter since the Cat would waste all of them.


Shen Kuei, BIATCHEZ!

SHOW ME THE TATOO!!!

Black Cat is a kitten compared to The BLACK PANTHER. Ya hurrd?

Cap 98 pounds? This hardlly seems like someone the "weapon X" project would have picked.

And Cable deserves to be somewhere on this list.

Yes, the good captain weighed 98lbs before the serum. Maybe his origin changed since I last knew. Can someone help me out and confirm Cap weighed 98lbs before the serum.

Cap was an average joe before he took the serum.

Cap was a 98lb weakling before taking the serum. Doctor Erskine, head of the super soldier experiment was impressed by his tenacity and willingness, however if it was unmatched by his feeble body. He aimed to not only create super soldiers from regular schmucks, but also to turn the flat footed sickly rejects into soldiers who could defend their country as well. Thus the serum went to Rogers.

Behind the good doctor's back, it also went to another man, McIntyre. He was a healthy and strong man, but had been repremanded for misconduct. A general gave it to him, thinking that administering it to weak people like Rogers was a mistake. However, I think Erskine had to give the recipient a special innoculation, which the general failed to administer, eventually killing Protocide. He was put on ice however, later found by A.I.M. and revived. Hasn't been seen since some of the later Cap v3 issues.

Tests for the super soldier serum were originally given to enlisted African America men. One of these men, Isaiah Bradley went on to become a black Captain America before Rogers' time. The serum was unstable though, causing brain damage. However, it was passed onto his son Josiah X, who has super soldier abilities.

Nice moves, Scarlet Spider, nice moves. That was very detailed. Your efforts have been most appreciated.

Glad to see someone appreciates me

Alright alright, his fighting prowess alone though still puts him on this list.

do these fighters have to live on Earth?...here is my Earthling list...but I just had to have some ties:

-Shang Chi
-Stick
-Black Panther/Killmonger
-Captain America/Iron Fist
-Mantis (sometimes on Earth)
-Daredevil
-Karnak
-Elektra
-Deadpool/Bullseye
-Nomad/Task Master (can copy fighting style but not strategy or determination)
-Sabretooth
-Wolverine
-Cable
-Nick Fury
-Punisher
-Kazar
-Omega Red

Cap is better than Panther no matter how much he's praised him.

DD, Elektra, Bullseye, Fury, Punisher and possibly others aren't even close.

Taskmaster doesn't count and if Nomad has the same power neither does he.

But a simple sucker punch to Rogers, pre-serum, would send him to the nearest MASH unit.

Taskmaster's memory is a skill he learned. Its not a mutant ability or something unnatural, its like someone with a faster reaction time then someone else.

This looks more accurate. Though I'm not sure Kazar should be that low - he lives in Savage Land (I can't see Punisher beating Kazar in hand to hand)! And I think the only two who should be tied are Cap and Panther. And if Karnak is included, he'd probably be number two as he can end any fight with one hit really.

And you forgot the Cat!

Alright memory counts, although i'm still not sure on the nature of it. If he can copy any style then it depends on his tactics. That too my understanding is superb. This theoretically would put him slightly above anyone he fights unless that person was a superior strategist. As for Nomad if it's a power then he doesn't belong on this list at all.

Elektra in one of her versions would go on this list, I guess that's why people keep listing her. DD was only able to match Electra 'cause of his his heightened senses. He's good but not that good without his powers. Bullseye's been beat severelly by DD, with ranged weaponry I'd agree he'd belong on this list but he's just not that good all around.

Punisher's great with firearms, but not so great in hand to hand. He's thrown down seriously but he'd be outmatched by the people on this list badly. Plus Punisher killed Fury (damn you marvel for bringin him back) and they're both basically on the same skill level.

The Panther and Cap have fought on multiple occasions...Panther held back and they still drawed...when you count Panther's superior athleticism and agility, he edges out over Cap...Im not saying DD is only slightly below them...its just the order of the list..I didnt guage their fighting ability, I just ranked them...thus, I can put anyone on the wish I feel like, as long as its in the right order...Maybe I should place Kazar higher...I havent seen him fight many good fighters...He has fought and lost to Panther though, doesnt mean much since everyone loses to him almost. Punisher has held his own with Wolverine in hand to hand using just a knife, so that counts for something. Fury, he's old as hell and been extensively trained by military just like any weapon X guys, and takes anual doses of super soldier serum to slow his aging. Fury, has more resources and intelligence than most of these guys too...I think Karnak can take most people on this list out with one hit...he has trained his body for centuries and even controls his autonomic functions...he has more endurance, speed, and better reaction time than captain america...he's also one of the few royal inhumans to not recieve any mutation...he has been taken down by Panther so thats the only reason I placed him so far down...still, the X-guys r nowhere near his level. As for Cat, I wasnt sure where to put him...in a sense of strictly fighting, r u sure he belongs as high as number 2?

Don't get your panties all up on a bunch.

Sure you can put whoever you want on the list. They just don't qualify as Marvel's best fighters so I didn't see a reason to list them is all.

The thing with Karnak is he can see the flaw/weakness in anything so he only has to defend against any attack and hit once. Nomad was a replacement Captain America for a while, I think (not sure so don't quote me on that), so he's right to be placed in the middle. That being said, should US Agent be considered or any others trained by Cap, like Hawkeye? I'm just saying

Originally he was a "villian" from the Master of Kung Fu (Shang Chi's) series. Though displeased with his life style (the tattoo, mercenary tendencies etc.) Shang Chi respects him as a fighter, and says he is a master of the fighting arts. He has beaten Iron Fist before, and stalemated Shang.

What about Fu Man Chu?

Marvel lost rights to use him. So the estate of whomever created the character is now in charge of him, and will lease him out as they want. Currently, Marvel does not possess the rights to use him, much like Conan.

You guys totaly forgot to put Agent X, who is below DP in melee, but above in gunnery.

Also, Blade. Even without his vampiric powers he would put the hurt down on the bottom of the list. Definitly above punisher, maybe right around Sabs/wolvie/cable

Damn you marvel...

yea but the thing about karnak's ability is that it is from training...its not a power, or mutant/inhuman in nature...more like spiritual...he is kinda like Slade in some ways

My list-
1.Stick
2.Stone
3.Elektra
4.Kirigi
5.Echo
6.Daredevil
7.Iron Fist
8.Ogun
9.Bullseye
10.Black Panther
11.Captain America
12.Wolverine
13.Kingpin
14.Black Widow
15.Deadpool

hmmmm... I'd almost want to turn you list upside down, or maybe stick it in a blender.

before you do that, keep in mind that DD has kicked a lot of ass in his time, including iron fist's and sabretooth's and also held his own against namor, Dr. Doom and the hulk. Bullseye is a monomaniac that studies the fighting skills of everyone he fights making him extremely dangerous. the only way elektra beat him the second time was by fighting with complete savagery. Stick is virtually jesus christ. Echo can mimic anyone and has yet to be bested in combat by anyone. As a rule, members of the chaste are always on top of the heap.

But he's also admited inferiority to many fighters. His Boxing/Senses combo makes him pretty dangerous, but I still think that the senses shouldn't be included. That goes for stick as well. It really isn't humanly possible (at least not in DD's case and I don't know about Stick.) Bullseye is probably the best ranged wise, but is no where near as talented up in your face, as DD has proved. And if Echo's thing is a power then he shouldn't go there either. If it's like taskmaster where it's a memory gig then yes.

When did Daredevil hold his own against the Hulk? The only time I've seen them fight, Daredevil was trying to calm Hulk down so he'd turn back into Banner, and the Hulk put him in the hospital.

Echo has perfect muscle memory but is deaf. she has no other powers. and DD is more than a boxer, he was trained by Stick and the Chaste and is therefore probably the most skilled martial artist wearing a full costume. apart from various special skills and training, he uses moves from boxing, Judo, Ninjitsu, Kung Fu, Muay Thai, and Kendo (he's used a Katana and Ninjata several times before). His skills also include the power to transfer his life energy and purify the souls of others.

Oh man, has it really been that long since i read DD?

well, apart from the more superhuman feats, he's done what no other superhero was able to do and nearly beat the kingpin to death with his bare hands.

Yeah, that is indeed impressive.

Still my list would look more like:

Shang Chi
Captain America
Wolverine
Black Panther (unless he took on Cap without his suit)

I left alot of people out but the order is right.

I'd put DD's circle a whole step below these guys.

both DD and Elektra have trashed Wolverine. The guy actually lacks a lot of speed and control.

Maybe the way he was depicted in a certain issue. People like to see Wolvie like that so that's the way writers depict him. He's conquered his rage and uses it most efficiently as per his Bushido training. Wolverine is a wonderful character when written correctly.

I've often thought that if Wolverine was written better, he'd win a lot more fights. He has various training in martial arts, plus government training. His senses make him an exceptional hunter as well. But when you see him in action, it's mostly hacking and slashing. If he balanced all his training with his claws and brutality, he'd be a tough person to beat.

maybe, but the chaste (including DD and Elektra), black panther, Iron Fist, and cap are just on a whole different level. I would like to see Wolvie take on Bullseye though. the only thing wolvie has on him is the healing factor-they both have incredible weapons skills and both have adamantium skeletons....

ummm, is that a joke?

Bullseye has an adamantium spine.

actually it's his whole skeleton, some of his vertebrae are complete adamantium prosthetics but his entire skeleton is plated.

WHAAA!!!!!!

well, he made short work of Gambit. (amazing fight, btw)

I'm not saying he's not better than Gambit. Gambit's good but no where near greatness.

As for this spine issue... since when?

since daredevil ****ed him up way back in 181 (one of the greatest comics ever, death of elektra, etc.). he was paralyzed until Lord Darkwind (yes THAT darkwind, Deathstrike's daddy and the inventor of Adamantium bonding) healed his spinal chord, made him immune to adamantium poisoning, replaced several bones with and completely plated his skeleton with adamantium in DD 196-200.

I read Elektra's death but didn't read after that. I have to say I really hate how they just pan out Adamantium these days. It's suppose to be rare but more and more characters are getting it. Then they go and kill perfectly good characters that deserve much better to pretend that the adamantium is coming from somewhere.

hmmm, i heard that panther beat shang chi once, can someone verify that fact please.
i dont think its true though, chi along with stick is just about as good as they come

I doubt it. But either way, any victoy where Panther is wearing his vibranium suit should seriously be reevaluated.

hmmm, which other heroes has chi gon up against?

panther and shang chi have fought briefly and to a draw...but this is way before the suit...he only started wearing the suit after the Onslaught story....basically all his real fights that are evidence for him being at the top of the list were when he was wearing a black piece of spandex...Wolverine is an awesome fighter...he has been writed very badly these past few years, and downgraded in the fighting departent...however, even at his best he was definitely below panther and captain america...Daredevil beat Sabertooth with two hits...that should suggest he is above wolverine in fighting...
like I said before....my top five would have to be:

Shang-Chi
Stick
Black Panther
Captain America/Iron Fist
(someone could certainly argue that Mantis should be in the top five...she isnt on Earth much, but her alien martial arts are proficient enough to fight some cosmics although her power is dramatically lower ie Silver Surfer)

maybe Im wrong about Iron-fist...maybe I should just throw Daredevil in there...I would like to know what NEVER would have to say...he knows more about Shang-Chi, Black Panther, Daredevil, and Iron Fist more than any of us...he has apparently read every appearance these guys have made.

Daredevil kicked the crap out of Iron Fist back in the first contest of champions

But Batroc could beat them all.

was batroc that avenger who used to wear that suit that looked like a combo of wolverine and DD's yellow suit?

No. That was Demolition Man (D-Man for short). Batroc is a Captain American foe. A master of Savate Kick Boxing, along with a host of other styles, uses a whip cane as a weapon, which he boasts when properly used can kill a man in something like 3 hits.

Here's a pic of him: http://www.marveldirectory.com/pics/picsb/batroc.gif

He's French.

Bah, I can do it in one (and Cap has.)

Would anyone consider Puck from Alpha Flight?

No, because he's a midget. I could punt him.

I can't believe I'm even dignifying this comment with a response. In Captain America #30, October 2004, Cap beats the crap out of Batroc AND his henchmen in only 4 pages. He ends with the word "Idiot." End of that.

In the "Contest of Champions II" series, Dead Pool beat DD, and Cap defeated Black Panther. And I quote (BP referring to Cap):

"The speed and reactions of the man are incredible. For every move, he has a counter. He adapts instinctively to every situation, every fighting style. Yet - why do I sense that he is HOLDING BACK?"

Any questions?

Excellent, it's good to have a Cap fan on. No one wants to give the fighting machine the credit he deserves in these threads.

Deadpool used a hologram to fool DD, if you don't count hs healing factor, his gizmos or his immortality, DP would lose.

Well that is the point, it's about fighting to my understanding not powers and gizmos.

But you also have to figure in DD has the supersense. Deadpool has more experience fighting, and uses more forms of martial arts, as proven when he defeated Taskmaster by using his dance style as taught by sensei lionel richie.

nothing compared to the chaste

Lol, it was a joke, jeez. It eez jest no one gives ze maztair of Savate Keek Boxing ze credit he deservez.

I'm confused. If we're discussing the best fighters, then you have to consider the fighter as a whole, as he appears in the comic. They're not going to come to the battlefield butt-naked with their skills or powers or whatever they bring to the table as a fighter tied up and stuck in a knapsack. You are not talking about REAL combatants, but fantastical fighters with fantastical powers that make them the fighters they are. Cap will have his Serum, because it is part of him and he was not Cap until after he took the injections and the Vita-Rays and the training in all those different forms of hand-to-hand combat. The same goes for the Black Panther or Dare Devil or any of these other guys. You can't strip them down to what their characters are NOT, and then say, "Okay, NOW who's the best?" Either we're discussing the actual characters, or we're discussing a skewed version of them.

Well, Krissy has made it clear that she is putting some limits to the powers that heroes can use in this thread. If you want people to start making lists of the best fighters with no limits of powers allowed, then you should probably make your own thread. However, if you do, you won't see any of the names you have seen here. You will see names like Thor, Superman, Hulk, etc

Not really. These are power guys who use sheer brute strength to win. Thor can fight like all hell, but every punch hits like a freight train and you know he's not following it with an elegant back spin kick to the face. I'm still talking about the hand-to-hand experts, the ones who rely most on their skill as a "martial artist" to land their punches and roll with the bad guys'. But I just don't think you can place limitations on some of them and then look at their skills equally. You can't let Dare Devil keep his radar sense, because he got that from a freak accident and then honed it to a unique fighting style. But it was just a chemical bath to the face that started it. Cap was a 98 lb. weakling until he took his injections and a Vita-Ray bath, then he grew bigger and stronger and honed his fighting skills and techniques with his new, bigger and better body. BP was an athletic son-of-a-king, but then he took a little trip into the jungle, found his herbs, and became the Black Panther (his original origin can be found in the Avengers comics way back when he was a regular member). So to strip down some fighters and not others isn't really an accurate measure of the "Best Fighters".

I definitely agree with that it. I don't think its fair for some fighters to have some advantages while other fighters do not. If I made a fighters thread, fighters would only be allowed to use abilities that can be applied and accomplished in real life. But, I am not complaining. I think Krissy can do whatever he/she wants and this thread has achieved a good deal of feedback. I realize some of my comments may have seem argumentative towards you, Capt. JK. Sorry, That is not intentional.

It's all cool, man. I'm having a great time. My girlfriend thinks we're ALL a bunch of dorks, but I'm having a great time. I jump on these to argue for Cap because he's my favorite and I love comic books and I'm teaching my son to love and respect them too. Some of my BEST childhood memories involve my love of comics and the games and fun that sprang up out of those pieces of paper (Megos Rule!). Keep it coming, man.

*Note: This last entry should only be read with some soft violin music playing in the background.*

That's good that you are showing comics to your son. He may aspire to be like them which would instill good moral values at a young age. It is also an added bonus that you mainly show him a hero like Captain America. Most super heroes have a very slight tint of evil in them. But heroes like Captain America and Superman are symbols of truth and justice.

Yeah, I'm not a Supes fan at all, but I like his values. I think the popular thing nowadays is to make the hero too gritty and "walks a thin line between good and bad". I like Cap for one reason because to him, a hero is a hero - plain and simple. (The other reason is because I inherited some 1940's Captain America comics that traveled around in my grandfather's footlocker when he fought the Japanese in WW2. He passed them on to me. They're in pretty ratty shape, but I wouldn't trade them or the memories of my grandfather reading them with me when I was a kid for the world.) He's the reason I fell in love with comics in the first place, Captain America specifically.

I say no powers. Only martial skill. Or i'd argue Galactus.

Oh please. The Wonder Twins would eat him for breakfast. "Form of... a gerbil! Form of... a puddle of drool!" Kick AZZ!!!

You get my point though. Although I'd say weapons count, cause that's part of martial skill.

But do you consider physical enhancement as a power, or just part of the character? Shooting fireballs out of your butt is a power, but I think DD's radar sense is really just his form of seeing the punches coming at him (albeit much better than most). You can't take away Cap's Serum, because then he's not Cap anymore. Thor or Galactus or Surfer are easily more powerful, but none of them spring to mind when you think of hand-to-hand combatants. Those are the likes of Cap, DD, Shanh-Chi, Black Panther, Iron Fist, etc. Superman is NOT a great fighter. On an even playing field, Bat Man would have him eating through a tube.

I think DD is a fine fighter, but would not be as good without his radar sense. So i wouldn't count him. Cap's fighting ability comes from his training. Without it you would have a peak human who couldn't fight worth squat. If you want to include powers, then Silver surfer can fight at the speed of light and weilds the power cosmic most effectively. Thanos uses his sheilds and powers and technology in a martial manner. What's different from Hitman using his premonition to DD using his much enhanced radar sense? They both use it to be better fighers but take it away and all of a sudden...

capt jk, you got a son! lol, didnt picture that, hmmm, maybe i shouldnt be too shocked, but u know, i kinda thought that most people here were like young comic readers like me.
neway, i think that we really should look at the pure skill of a person, rather than his super human powers, these however do not include supe human sense{other than psionic powers like precognition, definite super human reflexes and cosmic awarerness stc}, and the people who depend upon them{like daredevil}, also the combatants, i think can only have strength upto the upper level or peak level human strength level, and it shouldnt matter how they got it{like cap} cause even if it is through a serum or sumthing, they are still not super human, and any normal weapons or weapons that do not have any powers should also be counted, if they are truly part of the character{like caps shield or electra's sai's}
anyway thats just my oppinion{i may be givin some characters too much of an advantage by includin the weapons though}

btw, between cap and shang chi, who do u people think is the better fighter, personally i think its shang.

It is Shang. Shang is the Master of Kung Fu. As for every other martial art, he's just really ****ing awesome. Cap is a great fighter, but Shang was raised to be the best by the evil Fu Manchu (before Marvel lost the rights to use him--whoops!). However he always had a different set of morals than dear old dad, and upon leaving and going out into the world on his 19th birthday, he was able to embrace honor and a bunch of whimsical crap like that.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
capt jk, you got a son! lol, didnt picture that, hmmm, maybe i shouldnt be too shocked, but u know, i kinda thought that most people here were like young comic readers like me.

Yeah, well comics have been around a long time, "son". I'm an ancient fan of 34 years of age, but I've been reading and loving comics since I was a small child. I inherited my love of comics (along with a pretty decent collection) from my grandfather, including several original Captain America comics from the 1940's that he carried in his footlocker during WW2 in the Pacific as he fought the Japanese. My collection probably stands at around 7000 books now.

wow, thas a lot of comics, and i know that theyve been around longer than most people have, lol, its just that, a lot of people, and i do mean a LOT, justy grow out of the comic thing.

lol, so now ur gonna act all grown up on me hun, callin ME "son", lol. just kiddin man.
btw, im still 16 so technically, u can call me that,lol

Now you sound like my girlfriend (she's only 23).

hmmm, well she has good reason to think that your a dork now doesnt she. 34 year old MAN, who has a son, and a 23 year old girlfriend{nice goin btw,34 on 23}, reading captain america, hahahahahahahahhahahaaha!





i bet uve also told her about the crushes uve had on all the comic book babes since u started readin em, lol.

I too inhereted my love of comics from my father, Capt.JK. Although, unluckily much of his collection was stored in sub-par conditions (unbeknownst to him, when he found out he was PISSED) and thus lost many, many gems (1st issues of X-Men, FF, Avengers, Spider-Man, many old Thor's, 1st Defenders etc.) but I still recieved about 650 comics from him. He says that's about a fifth of what he had at one time .

16?!?!

our love affair then just might not work

hmmm, wish i had a comic lovin dad like you guys.

paola honey, i may be 16 years old, but i gotta hotter body than any guy here, {not to mention that my mental level far exceeds that of any 40 year old ue met.





hey im not jokin about the body, i work out like mad

think of it this way, by the time your 50 or sumthin, ill be in my 30s, now wouldnt that be lovely.

doesn't sound bad at all.... but we'll discuss it THEN.

back on topic

Dude, my girlfriend (the mother of my son) is a 23 year old lingerie/fashion model (11 years my junior), and I've got 2 college degrees. Don't purport to be the only one who can lift a set of weights or bench-press a dictionary. But it's good that you work out and read. Now spank him Paola.

Anyway, back to the thread. I'm not sure how I'd rank 'em, but I would definitely place Shang-Chi, Captain America, Black Panther, Stick, and DD as the top terrace, with maybe Iron Fist somewhere nearby on the list (Top 10, anyway).

What's your list Capt.JK? I'd like to see where you rank everyone.

I think a better list is ecption of black panther
wolverine
captian
ogun
sticks
master x
shang chi{reason he so low is he lost to wolverien in 5 sconds flatt]
iron first
electra
daredevil
bulleye

Oh Wolverine 8888....its good to see u back....you make the threads so much more interesting

hey i should send u a pic of me..although i don't work out a lot i seem to be "hot" to a lot of people!!

btw, still not sure about Bullseye bein on the list.