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Its not so much that he feels betrayed but the Sidious makes him think that he has been betrayed.

Oni-Wan loved Anakin like a son. They were together through all sorts of adventures and had a unique bond. However, he would always let that fatherly fear, as I call it, prevent Anakin from advancing. Sure, Anakin was physically powerful in many ways, but he was immature in other ways and Obi-Wan knew this. Obi-Wan meant the best for Anakin, but was never very good at showing it because the PT Jedi know little about the usefulness of emotion. Palpatine managed to convert Anakin to the darkside because he could feel Anakin's anger, and instead of telling Anakin not to express himself, he encouraged it. Of course, it was in a highly negative and evil way.

Well one thing is, that there's a rule more or less, that if you are a Jedi Knight and kill a Sith lord, you get "promoted' to Jedi Master. As we all know, Anakin kills Dooku with relative ease(supposedly), and doesnt get the respect and promotion that he rightfully deserves. While I personally feel that he would have normally dealt with it, or wouldnt feel that way if Qui-Gon would have trained him, Sidious makes him feel like he's unappreciated or just pushed aside while other Jedis that Anakin is in fact more powerful than, are getting more reconigtion.

And i think OB1's problem was that he knew Ani was more powerful and gifted than him, so while his master, he always tried to "humble" Ani, which doesnt work. He's always like, " very good, my very young apprentice." ya know qlays making Ani feel insignificant. thats what i think from what ive seen and read.

u dont get promoted to jedi master when u kill a sith lord.
u become a jedi master when u take an apprentice, hence, MASTER
the sith hve been extinct for a millenia before sidious, so why would they ahve that rule?

no, you become a master when the council says you are. Obi-wan is still a Knight in II. In ROTS, he is a master, because the council has bestowed this title upon him.

The mistakes Obi-wan made were more or less based on them both being victims of circumstance. Obi-wan was limited because there was so much going on. Usually, the Jedi faced things that could always be dealt with, diplomatic issues, easy fights against weaker oppoonents. Situations were one is able to point out the lessons along the way. The Clone Wars brought situations in which Obi-wan and Anakin would be seperated off and on for longer durations than usual, something that should not happen between teacher and pupil, master and apprentice. Also, all of the points Darth Nefarus made were very valid. The Jedi aren't supposed to get emotional, where as Anakin is driven by emotions. This is forbidden and looked down upon yes, but you also, as his teacher, need to allow him to feel in his own way. Accept him and he will be more understanding, and eventually come around to letting go of such emotions. That's why I've always felt that if Qui-gon had survived to teach Anakin, we'd have never seen Vader happen. Qui-gon was just the sort of teacher Anakin needed, free enough that Anakin would have been able to stretch a little and feel more free and accepted. I think around Obi-wan, Anakin feels judged. I don't think that Kenobi is judging him, I just think that Anakin knows how great Obi-wan is, that he always feels inadequate, thus fueling small criticisms into larger issues that Anakin takes to heart, which fuels his growing anger. The mistakes are on both ends of the stick. Its really just a bad combination in my opinion.

I seem to remember Palpatine saying "Master Kenobi" in Episode 2.

He tried to teach Anakin how to use his lightsaber instead of teaching Anakin how to use his own

He was just playing that "Humble old man" -play.

None around wanted to correct him, because he was just acting polite. And he was a supreme chancellor.

Anakin was also referred as "a master Jedi". However Padme made the thing clear soon enough afterwards.

so when you graduate college with a MASTERS degree you have an apprentice? I know thats not the same thing, but you get the title as a result of MASTERing something. Whether it be Jedi skills or whatever. And yes it has been said that destroying a sith, bumps you up to Jedi Master, because you obviously have the skills needed to do so. I heard GL say it himself, im just not sure if it was on the film commentary or on the bonus disc, either way i know i heard it.

I think one of Anakin's biggest gripes against OB-Wan involve his not being there when his mother was attacked. Just a thought of mine.

another one i would be thinking of is the fact that Obi-1 was knighted after Qui-gon's death, a death that anakin always postponed for his Master by saving his life countless of times.

a logical conclusion anakin could draw

" I am better than Obi-1 ; he let his master die and i always saved his life. He became a Jedi Knight and is now a General and i am still being mocked for my dexterity and my daring moves with the force "

Anakin could feel that his master is hindering his development of the force and could feel threatened by betrayl of a friend

obi wans biggest mistake was not telling luke that leia was his sister after the hologram message was played on tatooine

couldve been messy.

He had an affair with Padme resulting in Luke and Leia. He screwed up Anakin's life. So no, Obi Wan never did tell them who their father was. And anyone who says it is Vader is officially wrong due to substantial evidence of panties, bra's and Jedi sexual grooming oil. This new twist in Episode III: Revenge of the Sith will now allow George Lucas and associates to make a new trilogy explaining the events of Luke and Leias fall to the Dark Side against Obi Wan.

It comes down to a young man with a lot of emtional issues who gets taken advantage of, and eventually manipulated by the forces of evil.

This arc reflects society today. We don't pay enough attention to those who have tough exteriors but fragile emotions. If Anakin diddn't have OBI...he'd have a quicker ride to "hell".

so u are saying that Obi was a good friend but failed to read into his emotions ?

If true, that Obi-Wan sneaks aboard the Naboo skiff of Padme or that she sneaks onto Obi-Wan's craft, (the point is that he allows himself to be seen by anakin on Mustafaar with the presence of Padme) may be one of his mistakes.

He indirectly contributes to padme's death by aggreveating the circumstances when he meets Anakin as Darth Vader for the Final Showdown.

I'm with JP...the only mistake I see is not letting Ani go help his mom. But I dont really view that as Obi's 'mistake'. He was following the code he'd been taught all his life. I honestly dont think Obi would have ever been able to concieve that something like love could lead to such horrendous ramifications. Other than that, I dont see that Obi made mistakes. They were all victims of circumstance & Obi did way better than most at staying true to himself & his beliefs.

In ESB, on Dagobah, Obi speaks to Yoda:

Yoda: He is reckless

Obi-Wan: So was I, if you remember

isnt that an admission to mistakes ?

His mistakes also lead to the balance of The Force..............

Obi-Wan's mistake was training Anakin in the first place. Remember he was against Anakin being trained at all because he knew how dangerous the boy was.

"The boy is dangerous. They all sense it, why can't you?"

Obi-Wan only trained Anakin after Qui-Gon told him to, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he agreed with it. He just loved Qui-Gon so much that he was willing to do whatever he told him. Maybe it was this reluctance to train Anakin that led to the bad training methods (holding back emotions, scolding, and everything else that people have said).

And by the way, it is ridiculous to me that one would get promoted to Master just by killing a Sith. Obi-Wan wasn't promoted to Master after Episode I when he killed Darth Maul. No, you get the rank of Master when the council feels you deserve it.

Yeah that idea is stupid. Become a Master if you kill a Jedi.

If that was true, then every Jedi would try and kill a Sith to become a Master. Who came up with that cockamamey idea?

I assume you mean become a Master if you kill a Sith?

Yep.........

i wonder if the Sith are the same? Jango killed Jedi Master Trebor Coleman( who was on the council too) at Geonosis? Don't think Palpy b too happy if Jango turned up demanding to be a Sith master!!!!

"....Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me, now his failure is complete"-Vader ROTJ

When hearing that statment I don't think Obi-Wan made any mistakes I think Anakin just believes he did because he just needs someone to blame for what has happened to him in his life and who else is there to blame but his master Obi-Wan. I think Anakin feels that Obi-Wan never embrassed his skills and allowed him to develop farther and quicker then the other jedi's and for him not being strong enough to save his mother because Obi-Wan was holding him back and making him more machine than man

Obi-Wan made many mistakes. Like someone else said, he didn't train Anakin for Anakin's sake. Obi-Wan did it for Qui-Gon and to prove he knew as much as Yoda. (He was wrong)

Obi-Wan just expected Anakin to shut off all of his attachments and accept the principles of a Jedi, but he never explained anything well enough to him. They argue in AOTC about how the security is not a job for Jedi, but Obi-Wan does not explain to Anakin that being a Jedi is about helping others, and listening to those older and wiser than he is.

Obi-Wan also neglected to see how jealous Anakin probably is of him. Obi-Wan is a master first, on the council before him, and if Padme brings Obi-Wan to Anakin, he'll flip out. Obi-Wan always "holds him backl"

i really dont think obi made any mistakes in regards to causing the fall of anakin. i think it was very much circumstances and paplatine. i think that whoever was training anakin he would have fallen simply because palpatine was a master of deception. how else could he be among jedi at nearly all time and no one suspects him of anything especially the coucil.

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
Obi-Wan made many mistakes. Like someone else said, he didn't train Anakin for Anakin's sake. Obi-Wan did it for Qui-Gon and to prove he knew as much as Yoda. (He was wrong)

Obi-Wan just expected Anakin to shut off all of his attachments and accept the principles of a Jedi, but he never explained anything well enough to him. They argue in AOTC about how the security is not a job for Jedi, but Obi-Wan does not explain to Anakin that being a Jedi is about helping others, and listening to those older and wiser than he is.

Obi-Wan also neglected to see how jealous Anakin probably is of him. Obi-Wan is a master first, on the council before him, and if Padme brings Obi-Wan to Anakin, he'll flip out. Obi-Wan always "holds him backl"

Well I dont think Obi-Wan made many mistakes.GL said its Anakins inabilty to control his temper that will lead to his undoing. If Anakin is jealous of Obi-Wan then that is Anakin's problem. If you want to attain mastery status one must check their attitude. That is why Anakin/Vader never made it past the secondary level either as a Jedi or a Sith. He was too impatient and headstrong to listen to advice.

I dont think Obi wan made any mistakes (apart from the mullet), he was forced into training anakin and the council should have stuck to their original decision!

Actually training anakin would be considered a privelaged advancement for Obi-wan. from Padwan learner to Padwan teacher.maybe too hastily done was such a step.

to be precise it was Yoda who had reservations on anakin's training, all the other members of the council thought that anakin's skills were impressive.

Anakin had it in him but did not know how to weild it. It was up to Obi to teach him. but instead of adopting Qui-Gon's perspective of the force, ("feel, don't think -- use your instincts.", obi took up the perspective of most Jedi - that was to meditate.

Later on in ANH, Ben finally concedes this by telling Luke to feel the force.

Anakin was thought to meditate on it and while doing so, he stared down the dark side - only with a high midi-chlorian count may you be curious to sample it. Meditating on it is completly different to using it. Since the Force is two sided, you meditate on both of them. Qui-gon used to live for it - living on the light side of the force and not losing himself into meditation - he would have tought anakin to live within the lightside.

Therfore mistakes such as:

1) Unloyalty - as in the sense of Not using Qui-Gon's teachings but using the General teachings preached by Yoda.
2) underestimating anakin - knowing that he had a high midi-chlorian count. anakin had to have a customised training programme. Jinn's instruction would have been ideal.
3) Arrogance - Obi was a master to anakin very shortly after he was a Padwan to Jinn. he presumed he could be a good teacher as Yoda.

should be taken into consideration.

I think you guys are putting a lot of blame on Obi-Wan here.Like someone else said, Obi-Wan could have been no different to Mace Windu or Mundi or even Yoda in teaching skills. Obi-Wan blames himself, so should we? Poor guy has been beating himself up for over twenty years over it and I don't think it was his fault at all. Obi-Wan was a great student as we all know. Jinn even said he'd become more wise than he ever could be. Obi-Wan and especially Anakin, are victims of circumstance. That being The Clone Wars. Constantly being called up for battle not knowing whether they'll have enough time to meditate. Obi-Wan and the council became Knights and were seasoned Jedi before the CLone Wars took place. ANakin was thrown into the CLone War in the most critical of times in his Jedi life and there was nothing Obi-Wan could do he just had to try and cope juggling his own responsibilties with training Anakin.

The Emperor knew exactly what he was doing. He picked Anakin to be his apprentice because:

a) The Clone War he started would influence Anakin's mind.
b) The Clone War would greet Anakin with pain and violence.
c) The Clone War would split Anakin and Obi-Wan up on occassion, interrupting his Jedi training.
d) Anakin would continue to focus his Jedi powers on the combat aspect of being a Jedi, rather than finding the peace that Mace, Obi-Wan and the other Jedi could find.

Obi-Wan blames himself, even after all these years. He was like a father to Anakin, any loving parent would blame themselves. However, I don't think the majority of the blame lies with Obi-Wan, it actually lies with Sidious. Also it lies with Qui-Gonn. He was so concerned with Anakin being the chosen one that he was blind to his danger that Obi-Wan himself could see. Obi-Wan's reluctance and loyalty to Ginn means that absolves him of some of the blame. Anakin would later blame Obi-Wan and the Jedi for his mothers death (leaving her unprotected) even though it was Qui-Gonns foolishness that caused it.

this is a quote from star wars Databank not mine.

and i disagree with you saying that the clone wars were instrumental to anakin's attribution to the dark side

Then at least explain why. Anakin was also obviously fuelled with revenge because of what Dooku did to him. These were all combining factors that make Obi-Wan a victim of circumstance. A basic grasp of human psychology would show that.

I never said Obi-Wan was NEVER to blame, just that Sidious plot worked a charm on Anakin and had a lot to do with Obi-Wan's failure. I said we shouldn't blame Obi-Wan as much as we are. Man, I post all that crap the least you could do would be to READ it.

Put it this way, if The Clone War didn't happen - would Anakin have betrayed the Jedi? I think not. No Dooku, more training, more Jedi, no war, no brooding hatred, no frustration, no revenge, no Vader. The Clone War was a defining factor in Anakins turn. Sure he was slipping to the darkside before then, but Luke managed to turn himself back to the lightside after he almost slipped, it can be done.

And no EU crap being used as an arguement please.

I don't think Obi-wan made any mistakes, the real reson why he turned (as said by GL) is that he was never trained by Yoda, he was too old, so he didnt learn that much about patience and controling his feelings as he would have, and he was easy to manipulate.

And the Clone war was sidious' plan all along, to gain control of the senate and turn anakin, he knew that anakin would advance faster and not get the training he needed in a war.

Man, i honestly did read your post and i went to reply it taking me about 40 minutes to write a reply. It was a lenghty post......when i hit the Submit Rply button i got forwarded to the re-log in page.......

and when i hit the Back Button all components of the reply were not there anymore. But the Re-log in page !!!!














i'll soon post but this time i make sure its not only on KMC software

Originally posted by Red Superfly
I think you guys are putting a lot of blame on Obi-Wan here.Like someone else said, Obi-Wan could have been no different to Mace Windu or Mundi or even Yoda in teaching skills. Obi-Wan blames himself, so should we? Poor guy has been beating himself up for over twenty years over it and I don't think it was his fault at all. Obi-Wan was a great student as we all know. Jinn even said he'd become more wise than he ever could be. Obi-Wan and especially Anakin, are victims of circumstance. That being The Clone Wars. Constantly being called up for battle not knowing whether they'll have enough time to meditate. Obi-Wan and the council became Knights and were seasoned Jedi before the CLone Wars took place. ANakin was thrown into the CLone War in the most critical of times in his Jedi life and there was nothing Obi-Wan could do he just had to try and cope juggling his own responsibilties with training Anakin.

The Emperor knew exactly what he was doing. He picked Anakin to be his apprentice because:

a) The Clone War he started would influence Anakin's mind.
b) The Clone War would greet Anakin with pain and violence.
c) The Clone War would split Anakin and Obi-Wan up on occassion, interrupting his Jedi training.
d) Anakin would continue to focus his Jedi powers on the combat aspect of being a Jedi, rather than finding the peace that Mace, Obi-Wan and the other Jedi could find.

Obi-Wan blames himself, even after all these years. He was like a father to Anakin, any loving parent would blame themselves. However, I don't think the majority of the blame lies with Obi-Wan, it actually lies with Sidious. Also it lies with Qui-Gonn. He was so concerned with Anakin being the chosen one that he was blind to his danger that Obi-Wan himself could see. Obi-Wan's reluctance and loyalty to Ginn means that absolves him of some of the blame. Anakin would later blame Obi-Wan and the Jedi for his mothers death (leaving her unprotected) even though it was Qui-Gonns foolishness that caused it.

Exactly Superfly I think one cant continue to blame Obi-wan for Anakin's failures. I mean it was Anakin that made the choice to abandon anakin, it was Anakin that turned his back on his family and when he met up with Luke he wasnt concerned with compassion for Luke, the only thing he was concerned with was overthrowing the empereror and ruling the galaxy. I was reading Truce At Bakara and Anakin's force ghose appears to Leia begging Leia for her forgiveness saying he wants to clear her heart and mind of anger because anger is of the darkside. I am like Anakin its too late to start preaching fatherly advice, he lost that right when he became Darth Vader and supported the empire.

Yeah but we must also understand that the dark side of the force isn't something you can dip in and out of. Blaming Anakin is also a bit unfair. I'd say Anakin is the biggest victim in all of this next to Obi-Wan. Anakin was pushed into the dark side because of so many factors, most of those factors Darth Sidious was responsible for, a biggie being the Clone War and the "nurturring" Palpatine gave him.

Remember, the more Anakin was away from Obi-Wan, the more Palpatine could subtley warp his mind and interfere with his Jedi training, which he did perfectly.

And like I said I'm not taking EU as an explanation here. It's not what Lucas wrote, merely a fan fic. For all we know Leia forgave Anakin instantly. But that is not open for debate because EU is tricky ground, you can't take it as canon. Go by the movies only.

I understand what you are saying Red Superfly but to say Anakin is a victim of circumstance removes Anakin from his responsibilties. It was his choice to go to the darkside and abandon anakin skywalker. Also it was his choice to commit evil acts against the galaxy and fight his son and torture his daughter and just because he kill Sidious doesnt make him any less responsible for the evilness he committed. So to not blame Anakin would seem unfair to me but that is just my opinion and yours are good as well.