More nods to EP3 and OT, and how the PT changes views/assumptions on the Jedi Order.

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After watching Episode 2 again, I noticed that during the scene where Obi Wan is given a tour of the Kamino cloning facility- the shot where clones are sitting down to a meal- their food trays have groves in them very similar to symbol on the backs of Stormtrooper's in the OT. Coincidence? I think not! Aren't you excited by this discovery? Well, how hungry are you for spoilers right now?

On a more Episode 3 related note, however...

A scene from Episode 2 that if revisited in Episode 3 this way, could be quite cool: Notice the conversation between Anakin and Palpatine early in the film-

PALPATINE: You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time you will learn to trust your feelings. Then you will be invincible. I have said it many times, you are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met.

Seeing as Palpatine is so used to planning by seeing into the future, perhaps here is the very spot Anakin makes a choice to turn to the darkside, to become 'invincible'?

And so they walk on a little further, when...

PALPATINE: I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.

Could Palpatine be having a little joke to himself, knowing full well that he is standing on the very spot he he will 'become more powerful than Master Yoda', ie. kicking his ass?

I have a feeling that we will be revisiting a lot of sets from Episode 2 in Episode 3. Possibly even scenes with shots set up identically to Episode 2, for example-

We know that there are 'bedroom' scenes for Anakin and Padme. Perhaps there will be a shot very similar to when he's looking out Padme's window having a teary, same camera shot, but an older- perhaps wiser Anakin looing out? Perhaps not.

I'm also beginning to understand why by ANH, Han can reference the Jedi as a 'hokey religion' only 20 years after the Jedi being around. I get the feeling the Jedi are all but forgotten/ignored even during Episode 1 & 2. An example is when Obi Wan and Anakin walk into the bar. As they walk in you can hear an alien of to the right say "huh, Jedi!!" in a very mocking tone. Another example would be the "Jedi poodoo" line. Perhaps the Clone Wars will be viewed as an event that saw the Jedi come out in numbers, and try to reclaim some old glory- but in the end fail (as Palpatine sets them up to be).

One more observation (I figure reading is a good thing):

I think the Jedi (or at least 1 or 2 of them) have always known that the events in Episode 2 & 3 could possibly happen (Yoda & Mace), ie. MACE WINDU: So, it is done then. And the way, Yoda responds, there is a massive hint of *something* going on there...

I dare you to draw a longer bow than that, buddy! wink

Jedi Priestess
Nice topic! smile

Thanks! I've been reading Star Wars forums for years and I've always wanted to just join in, but I've always chickened out. I thought I'd jump right in and start dumping my thoughts onto this forum. The people on this forum are, on the whole, open to ideas and accommodating- unlike a lot of poster's-come-god's-unto-themselves on other unnamed forums.

I can heartily recommend not watching the PT for a while, and then going back to it with an open mind. You might surprise yourself with how *many* things can be shed in a new light and help the overall story gel completely with the OT.

Many people have problems with the PT, but the more I think on it, the more I step away from my expectations of how things are viewed/set up, the more I'm excited by this 6 film story. I don't think it's a matter of justifying the PT, merely a way of understanding it.

There are just some very strong preconceptions that have lingered these past 20 years and I think they can often cloud your perception of the 'real' story.

YODA: You must unlearn, what you have learned.

How true.

I think Star Wars is a lot like pie, it looks good, it definatly smells good, and you really want to eat it.

I recall a Pablo Hidalgo Chat from 30/06/04 where he said that Grievous is not Sifo-Dyas . I hate risking being flamed here, but let me draw an even longer bow...

I think Grievous could have been Sifo-Dyas. And I can make this immediate apparently contradictive statement when I point out the following:

Darth Vader is not Anakin Skywalker.

Anakin becomes Darth Vader.

BEN: Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.

Tie this in with why Grievous as a character exists in the first place- he is a plot point to introduce you to the technology of how Anakin's body, with such strong command of the Force, can be kept alive after his horrific 'death'.

Sifo-Dyas could very well have been a secret apprentice of Sidious, like Count Dooku. He could very well have been "killed almost 10 years ago", and kept alive/reborn as General Grievous.

I'm sure this observation has been made before, I just wanted to reiterate it as I think it still holds some merit.

That Pablo Hidalgo can be a tricky one.

if he was sifodyas how come he cant block obi wan shooting him? he should have the force as well.

Well, such a blast could possibly happen at very close range. Most talk over most boards regarding the Obi Wan/Grievous fight is about how ridiculous it sounds that Obi Wan can take down Grievous with a blaster shot. You'd have to imagine a close fight, not from a distance, to see how it could happen.

Darth Subjekt
i have to admit that people are actually SAYING something in their statements, rather than just saying an off the wall comment that holds about as much water as a thimble.

Now having said that, and also respecting the logic and thought put into the statements made about GG being Sifo Dyas, here's why i cant swallow that theory:
It was said in something I read that stated that GG was trained in the Jedi arts by Dooku to give him an edge of the jedi, hence weilding up to 4 lightsabers. And while Sidious/Palpatine definity knows of GG, he is in fact unaware of the training given by Dooku. And if Sifo Dyas(or someone claiming to be him) ordered a CLONE army, I dont see why he would be made leader of the DROID army. Why wouldnt he assume the role of General of the clones? It would give him an advantage in that position, being that he is NOT exactly like the rest, and could be identified as an explicit leader, rather than thousands being led by, well, themself. While i could be wrong since none of us have seen the movie yet, i highly doubt that SD is GG. By all means, let me know what you think.

Jedi Priestess
I believe it's been confirmed that there is no connection between Grevious and Syfo-Dyas. And you are right, the whole Syfo-Dyas topic has been beaten like a dead horse. wink

Jedi Priestess, you're right, it was pretty low to take the discussion in a "Sifo-Dyas is General Grievous" direction... I shouldn't bait people evil face

Darth Subjekt, thank you for responding to my topic. On the topic of the General being trained in the arts of the lightsaber- surely doesn't the ability to not only attack, but to defend when in lightsaber combat an act that requires contact of the Force?

I can only post ideas based on what I have seen in the movies, or know of the upcoming movie. This story arc of Dooku training Greivous, where is it from? I'd love to read it. Perhaps it would indeed throw my theory into chaos.

At the time of ordering the clones Sifo-Dyas would have been in 'complete' form, before his death. And I'm sure his role would have been bigger had he not been 'killed'. Perhaps Dooku was the next apprentice in line after Sifo-Dyas?

Whether General Grievous be a leader of a clone army or a droid army, he would stand out either way, wouldn't you say? He's fairly uniquely identifiable, wouldn't you agree?

Maybe I'm completely off the ball here, but is it in any way possible that Sifo-Dyas is actually dead, like they said he is? Cause I honestly think I've heard every possibility but that one mentioned at some point.

Darth Subjekt
yes i agree that he would stand out and be identifiable, i just dont think that would be the case. I think, in plainest terms, thats just a little too intracate or complicated when they can just throw in a changling or something. the only person who i beleive has another identity is Sidious, who we all know is Palpatine. I think the reason we see GG is just to see that Vader isnt the first person to be man and machine. Its just a way to see the room they were both "built" in, or answer the question, "Well why is Vader the only one in the UNIVERSE who has taken advantage of this type of technology?" or basically, "why arent there more like him?" Sorry so long winded, but its late and ive been up for like 20 hrs. wink

Hey, that's cool! If anything I'm trying to invite 'long-winded' discussion! I'm starting to get a little bored of 1 line replies- it often cuts down a thread before it's time. There aren't enough enduring threads anymore. Discuss, people!

Which brings me back to the main point of this topic- are there more examples of people viewing the PT differently, interpreting actions, dialogue or even set pieces in a new light? Are there more examples of how people have begun with a negative attitude to the PT- often thinking that ideas and philosophies, even events that have occurred did not gel with the OT- only to rethink, and review and change their mind?

What were these new interpretations, exactly?

Anybody? Does anybody actually try to look at these films after wiping their brains clear of 20 years of preconceived ideas and notions? What have you discovered? Two other ways in which I've changed how I view the PT:

Episode 2 is not just a love story. It's turning point on which all Jedi doctrine is changed. A Jedi gets married and has a child? Preposterous! Try and watch Episode 2 as a story of the first monk to ever get his end away. I tell you, it changes things.

Secondly, stop putting the Jedi on such a high pedestal. I don't think they're intended to be that way. Sure, they're powerful, and can tap into this mysterious Force. But it's just an allegory for Spiritual Faith and, like in this day and age, it doesn't seemed to be as revered. In fact, most devout followers of a faith in this day and age find a lot of controversy follow them and people oppose them- why?- because they are outdated and ignorant! Too tied to their ways!

This is where the Jedi Order is at. An old, hokey religion. A religion that categorises and ignores the changes in the universe around them.

JOCASTA NU: The archives are comprehensive and totally secure, my young Jedi. One thing you may be absolutely sure of - if an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist!

How stuffy...

Err... frankly I ALWAYS looked at them with an open mind. I think it is disingenuous to assume people did not.

The Jedi's pedestal is in their powers of law enforcement. Ok, people don't always show them respect- but that's just the same as the police. They still HAVE the powers, and they are feared for that and teeated appropriately, as the Federation flunkies revealed at the start of TPM- as soon as the Jedi turned up, they wanted out!

The Jedi are in no way at all ignoring the changes around them- they are trying their best, but the imbalance of the Force, and treachery, will destroy them. If Luke can, he'll put the exact same thing back afterwards.

The Jedi are a force for pure good in a Universe of simple morality, and it is not right to try and complicate that.

Jedi doctrine is NOT changed by AOTC. It is simply demonstrated why Anakin is so selfish and wrong to do what he did.

I think you are selling the Order way too short.


"Darth Vader is not Anakin Skywalker.

Anakin becomes Darth Vader."

Point of view. Stating that too heavily detracts from the culpability of Anakin.

And the chances of Sidious having a secret apprentice other than Anakin are very small indeed- it violates the rule.

So all things considered- no, I have never had serious cause to change my view of the PT, which was never negative in the first place anyway.

:.Space Opera.:
when i saw the OT for the first time when i was a very young boy, it became a legend in my heart. at first i did not become obsessed with it. but i was too young to be obsessed with anything other than my mother and my wiener. THEN when they re-released the films in January 1997 i was very excited that they would do such a thing as to re-releasing films that were made 20 years before. i became obsessive. i collected as many action figures as i could and i bought posters and covered every inch of my walls with them. i would have long discussions about the movies with my friends in elementry. but most of all, i discovered the art of film scoring and how the musical composition of a film can affect the story drastically. i soon read into film scoring and now i am on my way into becoming a film scorer myself, so as you can see, star wars has effected my life majorly. TPM was exactly the way i wanted it to look like, and exactly the way i wanted the story to be. but at the time i was still a kid in the sixth rade. i still was obsessive no matter what. i think that the PT made the OT a little bit better in my eyes. the RotS trailer makes this clear in the sense of BEN's speach to luke about the clone wars and darth vader. this one speach delivered by the great alec guiness was the one thing that interested me the most when i was young. how we were thrown into the middle of the story with little recolection of what was happening and the mystery of why it said Ep 4 at the beginning of the film. now the answers are being told in the greatest of detail in wonderful form through these movies. as the PTs are at their end now and we only have one chapter left, i look at the OTs in a much greater light as a story that was told a long time ago with many questions and as you said earlier saber....preconcieved notions, and is now being answered in wonderful context. so now, i belive that the OTs have been expanded on through music and special effects as well as the storyline. the story is still there. no matter how it is told.

good topic i like i like

:.Space Opera.:
yes saber. " i see you becoming the greatest of all posters..."

Darth Subjekt
Being that I got in to the wrong aspect of this topic, allow me to redirect my thoughts and feelings.

Im 24 years and ROTJ was the first moive i saw in theaters ever. While I cant remember intracate details from that time, i definitly reconized images when i saw it again, so i completely understand about the obbsessiveness of the films. The OT is my favorite group of movies ever. The first time I saw TPM i was in awe due to the fancy swordsmanship and more than just 3 Jedi. But going back and watching the OT after TPM even after AOTC, i saw that they werent even the same type of movies. The PT, to me, seemed like it relied more on special effects rather than story. Bu ti also realize that this part of the story needs to be told. But they try to get too in depth about things. The best example i can think of, is the explnation of the force. Ob1's and Yoda's were the best, they kept it what it should be, somewhat mysticle. I dont want to hear about midichlorians, thats crap, and shouldnt even be brought up. But now looking back i do give the PT its just due, as it is a part of the story that explains certain things from the OT.
I think that Ep3 will lean more towards the OT in style, which i cant wait for.

As Lucas once said in the OT the storys are told in a small section of the galaxy but in th PT they get 2 visit the centre of the republic & all these exotic worlds, i think thats why the prequels seem a little different they're still stayin true to the original storyline, i agree with space opera the prequels have made the OT better.

P.s. Episode III is gonna be a mint film

Darth Subjekt
i that how you spell that? lol

:.Space Opera.:
lucas saved the best for last!


Darth Subjekt
isnt that the wy its supposed to be? lol......hope it holds true to be the best. i think it will be the greatest movie period....beyond just the realm of Star Wars.

Red Superfly
Nah, I have my doubts.

I'll probably come out of the theatres thinking "OMG that was amazing".

But after a while,and when it comes out on DVD, I'll get sick of the CGI. I always do. CGI with me is a one-hit wonder. It'll impress me the first time, but it'll annoy me if I see it again and again.

Also, the fact that it'll be one fight after another means it probably won't have as much substance, charm, or flow as Empire Strikes Back or even A New Hope.

For me, Empire Strikes Back is the best film ever. It's the one movie that really stunned me the first time, and still continues to amaze me with it's flawlessness and absolutely stunning characters.

Darth Subjekt
id have to agree. CGI does get old after awhile. But i still think that Ep3 will be more than just SE, like TPM and AOTC.

:.Space Opera.:
"But after a while,and when it comes out on DVD, I'll get sick of the CGI. I always do. CGI with me is a one-hit wonder. It'll impress me the first time, but it'll annoy me if I see it again and again."

i agree with you to a point. it depends on what is being animated in the film. i could watch the clone wars sequene over and over and not get tired of it. but there are some points in the SE that annoy me like when anakin jumps on the back of that huge beast in the arena. it looked totally fake and outa propotion

Darth Subjekt
yea and when he was riding that creature to get padne all wet and gushy...that was unneeded and looked terrible. But i didnt even know that ALL the clones were CGI, i thought that the close ups were real people, but it turns out that they were all CGI, which blew me away.

:.Space Opera.:
yeah but i hope they copnstruct some costumes in Ep.3 to add some realism.

I totally agree on the CG point. Watching AOTC the other day, I especially noticed it during the speeder chase scene through Coruscant. Take the shot of Anakin on Zam's speeder. There's no need to pause the screen, you little special-effect nitpicking whores (yes, yes, I am one of them...)- you can just glaringly see how the shot is composited. Glaringly.

There's the 3D composited building
There's the beautiful matte background
There's the speeder made out of balsa
Oh, yeah. And there's a human actor

Or is it...? wink

I agree. For as much as we can label the PT as 'a cartoon' or as a 'CG-fest' there are just as many moments when you are taken back the first time someone says to you: "but, that scene IS all CG".

"What? All of it?".


Well, bugger me.

Does anyone have any other instances of that happening? I know that to this day I still love knowing that it ain't Ewan McGregor's hand catching Anakin's lightsaber during the Coruscant chase. Most people wouldn't even have guessed. Don't ever think that ILM is losing it's ground on the rest of the competition. LOTR (as much as I love it and the work done by WETA) isn't even close to the Star Wars PT in creating whole new worlds.

For the last 6 months I have been a constant reviewer of the film Attack Of The Clones because I feel that it is actually the most important film in the saga for laying groundwork for the revelationary events in Revenge Of The Sith- onwards. I would watch this much more than any of the others, even though I don't enjoy it the most... But there is so much in it (hopefully) wink

Over time we've been getting little bits of information on scenes that will feature in ROTS. So we know where a scene may take place, what the event entails, etc. But we don't really know how a shot may be set exactly, or what the dialogue may be. Whenever I'm watching AOTC I notice that there are many, many potential nods towards how scenes may eventuate in ROTS (all this usually from the thematic).

I should add that John Williams is also the master story teller of these films. At times I think the score gives more insight into the events on-screen than what is on screen. Anyway, I digress...

Take the section of the film AOTC where after one another, our two main heroes of the PT set upon the turning point from which everything changes- Obi-Wan totally uncovers the Seperatists, and Anakin has his mother die, and he touch the dark side for the first time (once again John Williams hints at this duel fates- in this case, the dueling possiblitlies of remaining Anakin Skywalker or becoming Darth Vader). Now I want to propose 2 different scenes for ROTS:

1). Does anyone really know how exactly the duel progresses? I've tried to search but found nothing. I think that this duel will be fought between 2 major stages. The first, after Obi-Wan discovers Anakin's slaughter of Seperatist leaders- this is where the duel commences. Now think as to why Obi-Wan is so motivated- The dark side (Darth Vader) is becoming strong in Skywalker. This is pretty much the last shot Obi-Wan has at saving his apprentice.

The second, being the point at which Obi-Wan has lost his apprentice is struggling to kill who is essentially Darth Vader. Now Obi-Wan is no longer thinking of saving this person, it is intent to kill- much like he did Darth Maul.

Any what is the turning point of these 2 major stages?

2) Imagine Anakin over Obi-Wan, ready to kill. Then imagine the surprise presence of Padme. Imagine the rage a young Skywalker would have, especially since he is already toying with the Dark Side. I presume that it is here that Anakin Force-chokes, throws, whatever- kills Padme. This, like the major turning point of seeing his Mother die and starting his path down the Dark Path, will be the breaking point. The point where Anakin may gain his yellow eyes? (Meaning a full turn to the Dark Side?) (There's just another post all for why Dooku doesn't have yellow eyes).

And what could Anakin say to a dead wife? "Now I am complete".

Dark, dark, dark. Think back to his Mother's last lines. This is the point at which Anakin touches and begins his seduction to the Dark Side. What could be a more catastrophic event the Anakin more than the death of his mother? His wife. You betcha. Darth Vader has taken hold, and kills Padme to make Anakin's turn complete. What more a perfect first line for Darth Vader to speak.

What do you think?

Count Doodoo
PALPATINE: I see you becoming the greatest of all the Jedi, Anakin. Even more powerful than Master Yoda.

Could Palpatine be having a little joke to himself, knowing full well that he is standing on the very spot he he will 'become more powerful than Master Yoda', ie. kicking his ass?

I thought that that fight takes place in the jedi temple.

.:Space Opera:.
cool very cool. i think that anakin would be the attacker on obi wan, not obi wan trying to kill ani out of frustration. and i dont know if he would KILL padme but wound her pretty bad.

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