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Heaven is just peoples coping for death such as reincarnation.

its not that simple...

ok then explain

its a question of faith, of a belief that there is some higher plain of existence, something to aspire to. look at buddhism, they believe in reincarnation, there whole belief system is based on the assumption that they have more than one lifetime (that and attaining spiritual enlightenment and many others). sure it makes death easier to handle, but i believe its more than that.

lets say you were reincarnated
if you dont know you are reincarnated why does it even matter
if you cant enjoy the second life why believe it

but why not believe it? why not believe u can have a second chance?

Your essence should be carried over shouldn't it? Their belief is that eventually you'd get into some symbiosis with the universe or something when you become perfect. The "am" will live one even If the "I" won't.

I have to say I argee with Pr1983 on this one1Being the first time I ever argee with someone on this site!Go Pr!JM

now i'll never make the list

No I am afraid you will not!LOL!JM

damn i am so sorry to hear that pr
but on the other hand i just made the list

Yes, heaven is just a way for people to cope with death. It's much nicer to believe that when your loved ones die they go to some magical place in the sky, just like it's easier to tell your kid that their pet ran away to join the circus than it is to explain to them what death is.

That is true Cheese but I think that may be lieing to the kids.I mean in that sence it is ok to lie to them but one day I think it is good if you exclaim the truth to them.
That way they know.JM

*shakes fist furiously*

damn you!

and this coming from a 13 year old KID if shes that old

and i only made one post and she did her whole "you on the list"
so

I agree, people deserve to know the truth. Which is why I believe people should stop believing religious lies like heaven and hell and just live life for what it's worth.

lies? i'm sorry but how do you know? i don't know if there is anything more, but until we can prove otherwise i don't see anything wrong in believing that the human consciousness can expand and evolve after we die.

Well you can believe whatever you want, but in the end there is nothing to back that up. I can't prove there is no heaven, but I have no reason to believe there is. I'm just confused by the fact that it seem as if the average person does buy into heaven and hell and many other aspects of religion without even questioning it. As far as I'm concerned, it's not "how can you prove there's no afterlife?" it's "what is your reason for believing there is?" I understand people want hope and faith that life isn't it, but just because you want it to be true doesn't mean you can go around telling everybody that it is definitely true.

There is notheirng wrong with that too PR but the kids should know.What ever you belive in is what you should tell the kids.Maybe you are wrong but if it has something to do with your relion or whatever.
Kids deserve to know the truth.JM

first of all, i never tell anyone its true, this is a debate and i'm merely expressing my opinion, the same as you.

i'm not religious, i havent been to mass in years and i never pray or anything, i even dislike the pope. and dont ask me what i think of the bible.

my belief is that this cannot be the high point of the evolution of our consciousness (i hope i said that right). i believe there is more to it than occupying this body. i believe while our bodies may not evolve, that our consciousness can.

Fantastic bit of philosophy you gave us there. I mean, the reasons you gave to us were so compelling that I denounced my religion right then and there.

I suppose one could argue that you are correct because so many other religions have a heave/hell-esque place where the good are rewarded and the evil punished for their sins.

However, in response to this, why would anyone invent a hell? If heaven is a way for coping with loss, why would anyone want to believe someone is in hell?

So if you child asks abot death and where one goes when they die.What are you going to tell them?JM

Maybe, nobody knows. I wasn't saying you tell people that, I was saying religion in general. People tend to believe in heaven and hell as a result of religion for the most part. It seems to me that even if there is a heaven and a hell, why should you mold your life around it. Why should you live your whole life worrying about getting into heaven? Just worry about now, in case there is no heaven. And then if you die and it turns out there is a heaven, great. But at least if it turns out there wasn't one you haven't wasted your life trying to achieve an impossible goal.

But I tend to be someone who won't believe in something unless there is at least a little bit of a reason to. Just because I was taught it was true growing up doesn't mean I'm going to buy into it now that I'm old enough to form my own opinion. And I for one see no other reason why people believe in heaven or hell except for the fact that religion says it's true. Sorry, that isn't enough for me.

Scare tactics. "Better be good or you'll burn in the lake of fire.."

and I agree but what about when kids start asking about death?You can't just say forget about it and live your life?You should be able to tell them what you belive in and your views.
Even llike I said before it may not be real no one really knows!As for me I belive in heaven and hell and if asked by one of my kids one day I wil say that when you die and you are good you go to heaven but if you are bad you go to hell.
THis is what I believe in dispite my jewish reglion and that it is what I plan to tell my kids.JM

ok my mistake



nobody should, and i do agree that you should not spend your life behaving yourself just to get into heaven. i don't, and i intend to enjoy my life.

i just believe that if this is it, that there's nothing after this life, then its an awful waste of a species.

But the human species can continue to live and prosper, it's just organisms that die off, not the species.

true, but i mean evolution wise, for you and me as individuals. is this it? if so i'd be disappointed.

And that is if you belive in that evoultion stuff which I don't!JM

Yeah, of course I'd rather have an afterlife than just dieing with nothing to look forward to, but just because I would rather have an afterlife doesn't mean I believe that's actually going to happen.

thats your choice and i respect that even though my beliefs differ.

But if you know you don't have an afterlife or don't belive in it.Then you I think you should in this life be good then what ever when you die you don't have to worry.JM

Methinks not. I'm fairly certain that the physical punishments we suffer for our crimes make up for that.

Think about it. Religion could have all the rules they want, how are they going to enforce them without punishment to those who don't abide by them. They want people to live a life free of sin so they convince them that if they are sinful then the devil will torture them for eternity. I'm not only talking about crime, I'm talking about anything that is considered a sin. Besides, whats so bad about getting the death penalty if afterwards you get to live in paradise? I think that's why they developed the thought of hell. What is the motivation to be good if everybody goes to heaven anyway?

Middle age people believed that everybody who lived in a Christian land (or had a vague idea of God, or something all encompassing like that) went to a purgatory, and then heaven.

What do you mean by middle age?

welll, if their isnt a heaven, and their isnt a god, and the world is just made up of cells and were just here takin up the air, then whats the point? u can go back and say we all evolved from monkeys or whatever, but how did the monkeys get here? then u can go back even futher, but eventually u get to cells. how did cells get here. GOD! everything doesnt have to agree with science. heaven is a place rewarding those who led a good life and thats teh facts

Its difficult to say for certain, and every person is different. If one believes, there is likely to be more to it then just saying heaven is a way to cope with death. In ancient times, Suma, Egypt and so forth, when life was harsh and short, religion does appear to have been a way to make it more bearable "we are in a 20 year drought suffering from plague and so on, but we will be rewarded in the afterlife", similarly, some scholars claim that at various times various religious institutions have used faith to keep people under control, such as work hard, obey ones master and be pious and you will be rewarded after death. But is that all to it? I don't completely think so.

That is my point too.If we were made monkeys first at the beginning then who made us and where did we come from?That is one reason I believe in creation it makes better sence to me.
That whole monkey thing is just confusing.I mean we can't just had apear here on earth without no one making us.Right?Uh sorry off topic again.
JM

So the theory of matter becoming life, evolving to cope better with the water, evolving fins that would allow them better movement in shallow waters, using those fins eventaully to wlak on land, evolving further and further and further to cope better until we become what we are. A theory proven by skeletons and fossils and old cave paintings etc, is rubbish.

But the theory where a big giant man dressed in white somewhere up in the clouds got tired of listening to harps so he decided to make the world and light and creatures and everything is perfect sense?

Put it this way, if god created light while creating the earth, what of the stars that are billions of years older than the earth, did God have a lightswitch or something to turn them on when he wanted?

Jackie and fruits, there is an evolution thread in the general discussion forum. Maybe you should look into the facts a little deeper before you start talking about "the world is made of cells" and "people came from monkeys?"

I can understand why people would want to believe in heaven. I would love it if every time a loved one died they floated up into paradise and waited for me there, but it just seems like a fairy tale to me. I have never seen anything that would make me believe that is true, and until I do I am going to continue to believe heaven and hell is just one big fairy tale. It's not a fact, because a fact is something that's undoubtedly true.

There is no proof that there is not an afterlife...A Heaven or hell either, even a Purgatory. There is no proof that reincarnation does not exists either.

One simply does not know for sure in this life.

As for remembering Reincarnated lives...Some can...lol

You can't prove there is no afterlife.. but that doesn't mean we should by default believe that there is one. On the contrary, it would be more reasonable to believe there isn't an afterlife until we know for a fact that one exists. I am not saying "don't believe in heaven" I am just saying if you do believe in heaven that's a belief based on faith and you can't present it as a valid fact. You can't prove that aliens don't exist, but does that mean that aliens definitely do exist? No, it doesn't.

If there is an afterlife, it makes sense that there was a beforelife

who said there has to be a point, if a god created the universe whats the point of all the planets, like in our system there are 8 other planets(as of our knowledge today) that just are there

Jupiter absorbs the bulk of the asteroids. Saturn and Mars inspire people to paint or write books on beauty or aliens. Mercury and Venus provide a comparison to the other planets, as their days are longer than their years. Uranus helps with many a Joke. Neptune and Pluto give us a time scale of the planets (in more than two hundred years Neptune will become the ninth planet again) and Sedna draws attention to the importance of ancient animalism religions (i.e. the Inuit, or Eskimos). They are all vital.

Heaven would bring little comfort if people believe it to be a "good place" just fabricated to bring the hurting comfort....so I doubt this theory could hold true

I find it odd that people who believe in Heaven, supposedly a paradise, are more afriad to die than I am, who only believes that nothing happens after you kick the bucket.

If some kind god was going to let you live forever in paradise (in heaven after you die), then why would he have bothered making you suffer for any time at all on earth. If you can do anything in paradise, would you also be able to make it so that you never went to earth, but just were born in paradise.

You know, religious people who believe in those 'religious lies' like heaven and hell could be offended by that statement.




"If some kind god was going to let you live forever in paradise (in heaven after you die), then why would he have bothered making you suffer for any time at all on earth. If you can do anything in paradise, would you also be able to make it so that you never went to earth, but just were born in paradise."

Because God didnt make us like mindless puppets who serve him. He gave us choice and free will - to do what we want. Heaven or 'paradise' as you might say, shows God's love for us, no matter who we are, that there is somewhere better than this, that isnt fun of sin, lies, deceit etc. God doesnt 'make' us suffer. - and i'll stop there because i know finti hates it when ppl start preaching

Unless you count all those people that have recovered memories from former lives...*rolls eyes*.



I am not afraid of death. I do not fear death, but that does not mean death is welcome at my door. I still have plenty of living to do .

I'd be afraid to die too if I knew that there was a heaven and a hell, cause there's nothing guaranteeing I'd be going to heaven...

How stereotyped is that? And your ignorance of the Bible makes your arguement null and void.



Because we were made to be immortal and to be without the sufferings we live through. But then Eve screwed things up with Adam.

"I'd be afraid to die too if I knew that there was a heaven and a hell, cause there's nothing guaranteeing I'd be going to heaven..."

Well u would have a guarantee of going to heaven if u accepted that Jesus died on the cross for you and submitted your life to God. *shrugs* but that's ur choice

So the only factor that determines whether I will live in paradise or burn for eternity is whether or not I accept that Jesus died on the cross for me? If that is true than Christianity is even easier than I thought. And if "submit your life to God" means live without sin, then I'd already be going to hell.

It's not mean to be hard, you know. Of course, one SHOULD try to follow the standard that the Bible sets in one's own life, but if you want to risk a last-second conversion, go for it. But God will know if you're lying .

Oh.. so if I live a life of sin but then am genuinely converted to Christianity a few years before I die it doesn't matter how much I sinned in my life, I'll still get into heaven?

Yep, there is no unforgivable sin...the bible says so


it also says there IS an unforgivable sin...but whey, the bibles like that

Blasphemy of the spirit is an unforgiveable sin. I'll excuse your ignorance on this one and point out that "blasphemy of the spirit" means the rejection of God.

So basically once your an Atheist there is no point converting to Christianity because that is unforgivable anyway?

I have a hypothetical question. If somebody like Hitler was to repent for all his sins and he genuinely meant it, would he be able to go to heaven or is there a limit on how much you can have sinned in the past to repent? Like if he was truley sorry for what he had done and accepted God and Jesus before he died, would he be able to go to heaven despite destroying millions of lives?

No, you misunderstand--one can be an atheist and become a Christian. I meant that one must be rejecting God when one dies. As in, you could convert to Christianity a minute before you die from a life of atheism or occultic practices or whatnot and still go to heaven.

There is no limit on the number of sins one can commit. If one truly believes in God and--this sounds so childish, but this is the best way to describe it--asks Him into one's heart, one can still go to heaven. If Hitler had accepted Christ, he would have gone to heaven without repercussions for his crimes.

So then rejecting God is forgivable, as long as you change your mind before you kick the bucket..

That's ****ed up...

It's called forgiveness and unconditional love. Humans aren't so good at that. *Smiles wryly.*

Well I'm sorry but you would think that even if Hitler became as holy as Mother Theresa before he died he would at least get a few decades in hell for all that slaughter. Doesn't seem half fair that someone who was good all their life would go to the same place as someone who lived in sin their whole life and then just changed at the end.

You are absolutely correct--it's NOT fair. But Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross, carrying the burden of all the past and future sins with him in his agonizing death, so we wouldn't have to suffer for our misdeeds.

This is what separates Christianity from other religions. When did one of the gods come down and sacrifice himself so that humans wouldn't end up in a place of eternal torment?

Oddly enough, Hitler WAS Christian. An Episcopalian. He also used to quote Martin Luther on how the Jews were evil and were responsible for the death of Christ.

Well, there's something you don't hear every day.

I'm not exactly sure what you were trying to imply.

Not implying anything. Like I said, I always mean what I say and say what I mean.

Well, I've never seen you say that.

Anyway, I just thought I'd drop that little tidbit on this debate and watch where it leads.

SEE! I KNEW I WASN'T THE ONLY ONE WHO SAID TIDBIT!

eh several mythologies have the sacrificial act of "god-man" like Osiris of theEgyptian mythology and Dionysus of the Greek mythology.

Never studied Egyptian mythology (I'm a Greek/Roman and Norse guy). What's the story about Dionysus? I know he had those vicious hordes of Maenads...

^ well ur doing way better than me, i havent studied any sort of mythology. so i'll just do the old blonde 'smile and nod thing.'

I thought I was the only one!

I think blonds have that innate right, lol.

or christian denomination as we also call them

god of fertility and wine. Could bring people out of the underworld (raising the dead, sounds familiar) he died and was resurrected.