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I think there will be a time at the end of the world where we will be judged and god will decided reather we go to heaven or hell or the other place that is just between.
What do you think about this?Any thing you want to state or ask go ahead!
See you around!JM

I don't belive in a Judgement Day, espeially since the Guy who wrote about it seems to be a lunatic, who was it John if I recall right. As I said befvore the Bible has good parts that can show you how to live your Life (of you interpret them right) but Judgement Day is just plain stupid. If God was good he would acccept everyone, I sure hope there is a good God but I can't believe in him.
But if there should actually be a judgement day well shit happens.

I don't know who wrote about judgement day.It is true god would accept everyone to be good.But the ones that are evil do you think they should be punish?
I know we all have free well but what ever path we choose we might regret it if there is a judgement day.JM

there will be one.

@clovie: i think so.... sure there will be one...

hysterical

Of course eviln people should be punished, nbut itr womn't happen from a God who in my opinion doesn't exist.

End of the World...Judgement day....Doomsday....whatever you call it SHOULD just happen. There is too many bad people that should die.

WTF that is like saying there are too many fires so some divine entitiy will come and blow them out, there doesn't need to be a judgment day just because there are evil people, what kind of stupid proof is that supposed to be

Divine intervertion or not....bad people should just die.

Well I didn't say that was wrong I just don't belive in a God doing that.

Whoever does it ....(God, The Devil, A crazy Machine, An Alien invader) this world needs to get purge fast.

What i beleiev Christianity Is, Is that it is like a Children's Story. If your bad the boogeyman will get you / you go to hell. It bassically "Scares" the epopel into being Nice to each other, thats all. Its a children's Story, liek Santa Claus. So NO there will NTO be a judgment day, its just seomthing thy said in the past so you all act nice to each other.

The ONLY real judgment day is When your on trial for murder. Or somehting.

And I am not racist towards Religions, Ihave a broad undersatnding of them, and many of my friends are Catholic, Its just that when you get to the point where yuo beleive you will go to hell for not saying thank you, or not going to church on day, Your pretty said and you don't think for yourself, others think for you, and you follow it. Your not a free thinker.

Damn you are right --Crash Overload
Why do you dislike humanity to much, don't get me wrong I don't think we are great either but I would like to hear your reasons -- Wind Dancer

just to let you know crash racist means to not like someone for their race and race alone, so you cant be racist against someone for their religion. and secondly take one look at yourself all the things you think do, all the things that go into letting you do something as simple as pour a soda, then go outside and look at the world, all the complicated intricacies, and tell me that you dont think theres something out there above us. now i dont tottally disagree b/c alot of the ideas of storytelling are to keep people in line, but you cant discount all thought of a higher being b/c of that

Then what is the proper term if I may ask?

and also i read above someone wondering why if God was good would he not just accept us all evil or not, and the christians and other like religions belive that God is willing to give forgiveness for our sins no matter what (hence the reason Christ died on the cross for us), as long as we are truly sorry and accept that we are sinners. but if someone commits endless wrongs and feels no remorse and would do it again, why would that person recieve the forgiveness he/she wasnt looking for?

tell you the truth crash im not sure, I know an anti-semite is someone against Jewish people, but I dont know the rest, i wasnt being a smartass just didnt know if you knew that

Then you beleive that tehre is a higher being up tehre that controls everything? Down right to pouring a glass of water?

You also beleive that (I am asking) That every murdering, acciden that happens is What the Higher being made us Do?

You beleive that when somebody does soemthign, theya re not respouncible for there actions as the higher being made them do it?

Hum, So whatever happens, nobody is responcible for it, as SOMEBODY made them do it?

Is that what you beleive?

You do not, that when Somebody says a Fish told the person to burn down a hosue they are said to be crazy? (I am not saying anybody is crazy here)

well racist is the best term I know to describe it
And if there is a good God I would say he accepts everyone thsat is good he doesn't need to be Christian but who am I to say.

In addition, i wuold like to ask all the hard core almost fundamentalist Christians out there What they think about the other religions, lIke Budism, or Islam (Islam = Matrix, literly, its the beleif that tehre inner spirt, aka us, is trapped on this earth aka the Matrix, and that we are seperated with Original god that created us, and by praing we can reform the tunnul, or lost channel and reach god away from this "prison world"

What do you think, thoes who are not swaded from God, What do you think of thoes Pollythiestic Relegions uot tehre today, and the people who follow them?

And what do you think about the Dinnorsaurs tat walked the earth over 65 million years ago?

What about thoes HArd Core Fundamentalitic people? Do you think that the all the scientific discoveries where hoaxes? if not all which ones?

Do you beleive that Eveoltion is also a hoax?

I don't necessary hate humanity. Is just that there things I sincerely don't like. I believe that this is a Dog eat Dog world. You fight your own fight and help those can't defend themselves. But at the same time I just don't trust ANYONE. There is only two people I trust and love and for me that's enough. I've seen some sickening shit and I just wish those people get some punishment of some kind. If it doesn't happen....well, I'll continue to be pessimistic towards humanity.

not at all crash, youre forgetting that according to scripture we were all given free will, allowing us to do as we wished, however it is God's wish that we follow in the ways of his son Jesus Christ, although we dont have to...thereby leaving us accountable for our actions, however he knows we are flawed and with free will we are bound to make mistakes which is why Christ died for our sins to allow us to be forgiven. and what i said about pouring a soda is not that he controls that but think of what it would take to create something so intricate, all the things that have to happen in order for you to get that soda from the refrig. into a glass. and Bardock i fully agree with the last thing you said, i dont think a person has to go to church everyweek and pray three times a day, morerather i belive that if a person leads a good, selfless, kind giving, and loving life, he/she will be welcolmed in the gates of heaven, sorry for the long post but i couldnt think of a way to shorten it

So god Created All of yourSel<ves All our Circulatory System, our Nervous System, Wow he most of been some scientist.

Still didn't answer my other questiosn thought

I woulso like to say this:

2000 years or so ag, Greeks and romans Beleived in a pollyhtiesic Religon, with hundreds of different gods, that aws the main religions ... of sorts, Same with Buddism and such,

Now 90% of the world beelives in a singular god, and the Ide of the god of love and everything is almosta ll gone,s ave for Buddism and such (gods of fertility, richness....)

What will we belive in 2000 years from now?

I am nto pure atheist, i was Rased a Christian, I just don'T beleive in the Bible, I beleive SOME stuff is accurate, the trials fo Jesus and such, but I don'T beleive in any of the miracles. I don't beleive IN mircales

Nore do i beleive in Love at first sight, but thats something else.

We should follow the morals of the Bible and the good morals of the religions, but other then that, Religions fight among each other, and what isa good thing can come out to be a very bad thing.

what was your other question. and keep in mind God couldnt be a scientist, science is something created by man to understand what God created--bet you never heard it defined like that before, lol

Its on the previous page

and as far as beliving in miracles, i have never personally experienced one, other than the fact that i was born healthy, however it is documented that unexplained healings and other miracles have happened, whether you attribute it to God or sheer will of man, i dont know but they are out there, and i agree with the last part of what you said, that we should all lead good lives and holy wars are the biggest instance of hipocracy in the world, no god would want us to kill what he has created. just my thought tho'

well I mean if you see god as a way of life I can agree with that
but I just can't belive in a real God it sounds so irrational to me.

in the same respect it sounds irrational to me to belive that our universe, our history, our entire existence came about because of some cosmic car accident where two things ran into each other and caused the big bang, to tell you the truth i think religion and science can coexists with an open mind u just need to see it from the right point of view.

and also, it depends on your definition of real---most belive real to be something that you can touch see smell hear, in that sense God is not "real" he is something that is beyond the comprehension of our minds. and to those who KNOW that God does not exist, remember back before Columbus sailed, people KNEW that the world was flat, truth and whats real just means its what we accept at the moment, weve allready proven to ourselves that what we KNOW to be true, can be flipped on us at a moments notice, because noone knows what discoveries tommorow brings

well I can accept some kind of eternal thing that was before the Big Bang but a living God that actually acts on the world is just not believably to me?

Oh well I totally agree we can never know I am just saying what I belive and why I belive it.

oh your absolutley right, I tottally respect people that stand by their beliefs, in the same sense that what i belive may, hypothetically, be wrong. that doesent deter me, and that is what Faith is

I actually would like to know your view on Judgement Day, I think you didn't state it yet.

The Universe Was reconstructed Infinity Amount of times, Its just that before the cosmic forces and gravitational feilds Caused eevrything to go abck together into a mass the size of a pinhead, then Beacsue of the rpessure it exploaded, Only this time the universe will die in cold. A it keeps on expanding. So no more big crunch.

And as for the Apocalypse, Well everything Points to either 2005 (or as a belive it ) 2008 / 2012

2005 - My friend is dreadfulyl afraid that aliens will come abcka nd abduct us all.

2008 / 2012, tehre aws an error in calculating the Actual Date of the years, we might eb in 2007, and the end might be next year or in 5 years., or we might be in either 1999 or in 1995...

In which case the biblical apocolypse. But I beleive it will be Nuclear destruction... if only the Alxendria Library was not burnt down, They hide some stuff before we just need to find it.

I also ebelive in A Post Nuclear war that happened 3 times beofere on this earth, the enxt one will be the end,

Proofs? Texts in the Mahabarata, Ancient skriputers, A "sheet of glass" found underneath the new Mexican Desert which can be only cause be grains of sand crystilizing with each other, Which can be done using a nuclear weapon.

Within the Mahabarata, It said all sorts of tuff lie that, the Mahabarahta describs VERY accuratly jet plans and heo they work, twhat a nuclear balst looks like, the effects of nerve gas.

The Mahabarata is 2,000 years old.

No, there will be no judgement day, a meteor will hit the earth and destroy everything, or else there will be a nuclear holocaust.

Yes and he'd accept all the murderers and thieves and they could go around in heaven having enjoyment in causing pain to others-yeah that's right come on admit it your just pissed your missing something from your life.

then who will they be punished by-a higher power? that's the same thing as saying their is a GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh so sorry according to that good ol' book the world I'll get a lot worse than it is now before judgement day sorry.

yeah and the end is me punisihng the so called gods

The good ol' book is fiction. It was written by humans, not God. There is nothing but worthless rhetorical non-sense that says that it was written by "divinely inspired" humans.

I could spend my entire life writing a "Holy book" that contains many simple truths, along with fictional accounts of God. I could spend decades perfecting it and teaching people to live by it, and while much of it would be true, the parts that claim to be "facts" would just never be.

No true prophecy in the Bible has ever come to pass. Oh, sure, you can say "well, the Bible said that one day people will reject God, and it came true!" It's called a vague prediction that will inevitably occur thousands of times over thousands of years. Furthermore, the predictions that are "not so vague" are complete and utter non-sense.

"Ooh, be good and do your chores cause God will send you to Hell if you don't respect me."

Filthy tripe.

See, respect Someone That Says that, Unfourtunatly when is aid soemthign along theos lines, ALL THE MODS Well, a good part of them anyways, Came down on me.

Yeah My parol hearing

Slight exaggeration no?

Celestial girl maybe you didn't understand my post I said there is no god or judgement day, but if there was a "good" God (as christians belive) he would accpt ev3eryone (which he won't since he doesn't exist) and I said bad people should be opunished not by a non-existant God but by Humans and not becuase of revenge or any other feelings but just because they might harm humanity again.

So I never said there was a God and you could have read that in my post too.

Why would a good God accept everyone?

Cause he is ****ing good and he created us so it is basically his fault and why should a good God harm anyine if he is omnipotent he could give anyone a good life so he actually must be an ass.

What would be his fault? That we have free will?

To be good does that mean you dont punish?

If you are omnipotent yes. And of course it is his fault cause there is no equality someone that was born and raised in a ghetto is not worse or better then someone who was born in a "good" family but he is surely mmore liklely to commit a serious crime.

Omnibenevolence.

God is willing to accept everyone, it is their own actions that determine wether or not they will be accepted.



Sins can be forgiven, if you ask. We will all falter because we are are all imperfect. Its not about being perfect, its about trying to do whats best and asking for forgiveness when you do whats wrong.

For the rest, refer above.

So your saying if a parent punishes his child for doing something wrong is bad? Then how does the child know what bad or good is? God is the parent we are his children. It is ethics that we have to punish people in order to live peacefully in society-that does not mean murder.

No Apocalypse. No Judgment Day. Move along, citizens.

Do you know nothing? Heck if it was that hard I'd probably be on my way to hell right now but I'm not-new testament bud.

Nope, Surge is right, it's a load of shit

Your sig says:
"Everyone's got a passion, what's yours?"
I like to write....

That's cool, thanks for answering your the official first person to.

I also have a deep and profound respect towards women.....

Obviously, he created us, if he really cared that much that we obey his rules, he would have created us to be mindless drones who did exactly as he pleased. "Free will" is also a load of shit, because god could've just as easily created us to only be capable of obeying a set of rules. Sometimes I wonder if the Christian god has the personality of some ****ed-up ten year old who likes melting plastic army men with a magnifying glass.

Oh, and my passion is music

cool, mines reading but were kinda getting off subject here aren't we guys?

thats great MC John but anyway.
We are not Gods children we are his creation (I mean we are not really its your belive) he could have made us better but he didn't, if a parent punioshs its child it will no what is good and what is bad if God is going to punish us on Judgement day we might know what is good andd what is bad but what the **** does that help when you are not allowed to live on in paradise?

The pain in the ass about Judgement Day is that they keep delaying it....2000....oops, 2001...2002....2003...blah.
I gave up LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ago on the Judgement Day theorem.

K well for one Our poarents created us right by having sex-God created us by well saying so, two well that's what were on earth for... learning what's good and bad.

most christians don't belive in an exact date or do they?
I mean that never worried me aboot judgement day some crazy people always claim the world is gonna end tomorrow.

Well, I'm talking about the bishops in the streets on New Years begging ppl to pray for their souls and such....plus, ppl are always finding "codes" and "messages" in the Bibles and scriptures that they say are relevant to J.D. = Bullshit.

As a Christian they're are some days were I wish he would just get it over with, but as a Christian I beleive that it won't happen for a long time.

Or ever. I'd like to think that IF there is a God, he is merciful and would show us the right path without KILLING us and DAMNING our souls. But hey, that's just me.

yeah so would I and he is but if we were always good would you really call that freedom?

do you think some guy in somalia that is starving to death cares about freedom
and our parents weren't able to make us perfect or give us great lives God is so yes that is something different.

Eh....maybe not.
See, I tend to believe that IF there is A God, or many, or whatever, that this God/Gods would allow us to make our own mistakes, but instead of letting us kill ourselves OR they/him/her kill us, they save us and bring us to eternal peace.....without dying horribly first.....

if there was a good God thats what he would be excpected to so

Meh....I don't believe in god or Jesus, why am I debating this? lol

Yeah but God cares whether we get are own freedom or not

well then he is an ass and not good at all

well how can you call him an ass if you don't beleive in him?

arrrrrrrrrrrghhhh.
Well the God you you belive in can only be a bad person if he exists, is that better?

He's an evil person because he wants us to do good righhhhhht? Um yeah mind explaining that to me a little better.

No because He doesn't give everyone thje chance to do good, nor does he give us good lives so **** him

that's bulls**t he gives everyone a chance to do good, we can make the best out of our crappy lives and that's what he wants us to do

yera like the kids that die after birth or soon afterwards sure you are right. I forgot they got the chance to live a good life but ****ed it up. And anyway he just is an ass cause he could make our lives better if he would exist but he doesn't

What do you mean by that and I Already told you he left up to us to make the best out of our crappy lives it's why we have freedom.

Well I don't doubt that you belive that, I just say that if that is true God can't be good.

Would you share a room with someone you had never met? Would you have an intimate relationship with someone you had only just met? No. You would want to know them first. If you don't have a relationship with God, how can you expect Him to take you to hevean?

depends on the situation

I believe that Evolution is something God 'made' happen.
No, religious followers fight with each other. 90% of the time, religion is an excuse, not an actual reason.
Who does He not give the chance to live a good life to?

I'm surprised Im the first one to mention this

If God is omniscient, free will does not exist and an omnibenevolent God would not punish beings with no free will.

Even if he knows everything you were going to do, it doesnt mean you didnt make those decisions.

why not?

Suppose that when I get dressed in the morning, I can put on either a pair of black socks or a pair of white socks.

If God knows that I will put on a pair of white socks and I put on a pair of black socks instead, God does not know everything and therefore, is not omniscient.

But if I have to put on the color of socks God knows I will put on, then I do not have free will as I have to make the choice He knows I will make.

If God is truly omniscient, then He knows whether I am going to heaven or hell before He creates me. How can an omnibenevolent God create someone only to destine him to hell? How can an omnibenevolent God punish beings that do not have free will and have to do what He knows they will do?

@ CelestialGirl: Because God would have know what we will do and it would be his fault since he created us that way, we wouldn't have a chance to decide anything for real since he knew what irt was so when he made mankind or started the Big Bang he would know that I for example won't belive in him so that is kind of bad because with creating everything he already knew that I was gonna burn in hell for not beliveing in him so its his fault.

@ frodo34x: I just say if he was good he would accept all people. And he knows os if he is omniscent doesn't he. I mean how can he let anyone not live in paradise if he knew he wouldn't live the way he wanted when he started creation, he could have made a better world, where everyone belives in him and can go to Heaven

Oh and people that don't have the chance to live a good live exist. I think many people in India and Africa have rather bad lives without God and in america there are ghettos too aren't there? If you are brougt up one way you can't just behave another.
And since God knows anything he also knew that there will a saddam or a Hitler, and just think about how many bad things happened in his name he must have known that when he showed himself to the jews or when he told Mohammed to tell people about him or when he put his "son" on the earth.

Um maybe they don't have enough money, and will probably die suffering but they can still be grateful for what they had, besides I've met someone who lives in Africa and people there do beleive in God-sure not all of them beleive in God but the ones that do are alot happier than the ones that don't.

About the God is evil cause he made us this way, he made us this way for free will, he did create it yes but it never touched it it happened when we ate the fruit!

He knew we would eat the fruit when he created us

You make the choice he knows you will make but you do in fact make that choice. Therefore free will has not been violated.

He did not make that their destiny though, it was their own personal choices. Choices that he knew they would make but ones he did not force upon them.

Chouices he knew they had to make in that particular situation because of upbringin and other reasons that weren't their fault . And if someone knows whatever will happen and there is no other possibility for it, I wouldn't call it free will, the concept of a God is against free will anyway.

On my experience, I had the following point of views on Judgement Day.

Religion:
Based on the Revelation, on the day that only He, the Great One above or God knows, he will sort out the people just as how a shepheard separates goats from the sheeps in the farm. All those who believe and had dedicated themselves to God will be rewarded with heavenly glory while those who continously sin without remorse will be sent to hell.

Science Reality:
The sun is about to lose it's energy that supports life. Since it's a star, a few more millenniums, it will explode anytime and become a black hole that will suck everything into it's dark vortex. I am positive that this will really happen sometime in the clouded future.

Science Fiction:
Dinosaurs, Robots and the supernatural will rise from hell or wherever they are supposed to be and will annihilate everything in Planet Earth making everything their's or some madman planning to take over the world.

Anyways, even if I do believe in the three things I stated, I won't think about the world ending right now. I have many things to enjoy and life is worth living especially when the world progresses.

Now you are saying that people shouldnt take responsiblity for their actions because of environmental factors. Im pretty sure the law would disagree with you, I know that I do.

Just because God's knows what you will do before you do it doesnt mean that he makes you do it.

How is the concept of God against free will?

No no no, I said if God would exist then people shouldn't have responsibility. My Philosophical Ideas are of a whole different kind again I just say someone that doesn'T have free will should at least not be punished by the person who made them do it.
And of course god knowing what will happen and still create it that way means that god made you do it and is responsible.

And I am sorry I didn't mean the concept of God but the concept of the Christian God as omniscent and omnipotent is against free will .

"And Harry Potter and all his wizard friends went straight to hell for practicing witchcraft!"

*Throws book in the fire.*

"Yay!"

Lol.

ok I surely didn't get that

Just a thing from the Simpsons.

Could you be a little more spefic in your statements, it seems a little broad/vague.

Err I will try:
If God created us he would know what every single one of us would do, so he kenw before we were actually were born that we would sin and that there would be n o way around it, we would exactly do what he already knew we would there fore we have no free will since we can't do anything else, and God knowing that when he created the Universe makes him resposible for it. You know kind of like someone throwing an atomic Bomb ion a city and perfectly knowing what will happen so its not hte fault of the Bomb but of the person causiong it.

Sinning is inevitale because everyone is imperfect. There isnt suppose to be a way around sinning, God doesnt ask for perfection.

Your example is that of destruction and the bomb has no consciousness.

God created it for the potential for good of humans, the ones who would follow, the ones who dont are the inevitable part of free will. But he wanted free will, not to force everybody.

But there is no free will if he knows what is gonna happen anyway.

Yes their will be judgement day and it will be great white thrown judgement when god will judge the nations of the world by his books called the lambs book of life but this is after 10000 year reigh of Christ.

oh man I forgot all about that,
darktim1 is right

If omniscience exists, free will does not. It is a fairly simple concept, really.

If God knows that I will do something, I have no other choice but to do what He knows I will do, otherwise He would not really know now would He?

If I must do what God knows I will do, I do not have free will but the semblance thereof.

If God is omniscient, our actions are predetermined and we do not have free will.

If we have free will, then God does not know everything and is not omniscient.

Thats what I am trying to tell them but they won't listen

I get the concept that you have but I disagree.

You are suggesting that his knowing interferes but it does not need to be so.

Your actions are known to him but none the less are your actions. He knows all the decisions you are going to make, the decisions you WILL MAKE on your own accord, not are forced to make.

Please provide an example of an instance in which God knows everything but it is possible for one to do the opposite of what God knows he will do.

Or if you prefer, please reconcile how an omnibenevolent God can create an individual with the foreknowledge that he will go to hell.

Your insinuating that God knowing your choice forces you to do something, it doesnt. He just knows everything, the way you think, the things you will do but they are the things you do, YOU DO them on your own. To you, everything is new are able to make whatever decision you want.

To god, he already knows the things YOU will choose.



He still gave them a choice, they are responsible for their decisions.

So I presume that you cannot provide an example of an instance in which God knows everything but it is possible for one to do the opposite of what God knows he will do?

So if God knows that I am going to commit a crime, can I choose not to?





If God knows an individual is going to hell before he is created, then his going to hell is predestined by God and not the result of his actions. If God knows he is going to hell, how can he do anything but what God knows he will do? Furthermore, why would an omnibenevolent God create an individual knowing that he will go to hell?

I didnt try to provide an example because I dont see the need for one.

It is not possible to do something other than what God knows you will do. This however does not mean you didnt get to make your own choices, it means that he knows your choices before you do. They are however, your choices.

Free will is not affected unless there is interference, omniscience is not interference.

If God knows you are going to commit a crime it is because that is your decision. God knows your decisions just as you will know later on. They are still your decisions though.



He created them with free choice, he knows what they will do with those choices and if if that leads them to hell then so be it. That is not his fault, while you appear to be wanting to the put the blame on God for creating them, that is incorrect. They had free choice and so they take responsibility.

Knowing that they will go to hell is different from making them do the things that led them their.

By your own admission, it is impossible to do anything other than what God knows you will do. Therefore, if God knows that I will commit a crime, I must commit a crime. I cannot decide not to at the last moment or God would not be omniscient. But if I cannot decide not to, I do not have free will now do I?





By creating an individual knowing that he will go to hell, God is destining that individual to go to hell before he is even born. Why would an omnibenevolent God do this?

Ultimately, the problem with omniscience is that of reconciling divine foreknowledge and human freedom. If God knows all of our future actions, then our future is fixed, but if our future is fixed, then there is nothing we can do to change it. The ability to determine our future actions is what constitutes human freedom. Divine foreknowledge precludes the possibility of our being free agents. The only way to reconcile this paradox is to accept that either God is not omniscient or that human beings do not have free will.

Its a given that you can not do something that God wont know, he is omniscient. Your ability to make a choice is not diminished by God's knowledge of the outcome. Your choice is real but God knows the end result.

You can decide at the last minute not to commit that crime but God would know that too. His knowing doesnt force you to do bad, you choose to do so.



Creating an indivual he knows will go to hell does not mean he forced them there by creating them. That is the path they choose, they still had to choose it.

It is not fixed by him, it is known by him. It is done by whomever on their own accord.

Faking out God is not what determines free will. We determine our future and God knows our future.

It is not one or the other because omniscience does not affect free will.

The existence of both divine foreknowledge and human freedom is a paradoxial impossibility. Either God is omniscient or human beings have free will. Which is it?

God may be thought of as timeless, which means that god exists outside of time, unconstrained by the process of cause and effect. If god exists outside of time, then god can observe all events throughout the course of our history as if they were simultaneous. God knows what our future holds without also affecting our present or our free will.

You still arent getting it. Its both...

It can't be look, if god or whoever knows what I am going to do, and I am not abnle to do anything else then I can't choose and I don'T have free will it just is true
and for the arguement that he knows that we will go to hell that is even more true since he could just choose not to create us in that way and we wouldn't need to go to hell.

its a load of humbug so it is neither

finti you just said we don'T have free will nor is good omniscent interesting point of view

Bah humbug, scrooge

thats right

You arent looking at it the right way. You dont know what he knows, to you everything is new so how do you not get to choose? His omniscence doesnt affect your free will.



Whomever doesnt need to go to hell, they choose to deny him. God will punish those, not "not create them".

If agents are truly free, their choice of action cannot be known by observation of the future.

If I have free will, my future is not fixed and my actions cannot known until I do them. For God to know what I will do before I do it, my future must be fixed but then I cannot have free will.

The existence of both divine foreknowledge and human freedom is a paradoxial impossibility. The only way it can be reconciled is to accept that either God is not omniscient or that human beings do not have free will. Perhaps the Christians that would like to have it both ways should read The Bible as it clearly states the latter.

Romans 9:18-20;

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Your belief is flawed. Also just to let you know it says that God knows all things in the bible.

God knows what we will choose but your way you are interpreting it is as if God is only in the present. That is incorrect. He is everywhere all the time, past, present and future.

God transcends time.

Even if God can transcend time, He can only know the future if it is fixed.

indeed

Again you are wrong. God is already in the future so hes already seen everything. God is everywhere all the time, the past, present and future.

I told you your belief was flawed.

hang on a second, who said you sit on all the correct answeres, this is out of points of views and last time I checked you didnt sit with monopoly on common sense

If you understand the concept, you could not disagree with me.

Also I find your position quite... hmm strange. If you review above you can see time after time he insisted what I was saying was an impossibility and that I had to choose one of his two options.

So he does that, you look the other way. I show him hes wrong and state so, you get on my case?

You can repeat that I am wrong at nauseum and it will not change the fact that the existence of both divine foreknowledge and human freedom is a paradoxial impossibility.

Omnipresence only reinforces the problem with omniscience. It would be quite impossible to be present in a future that does not yet exist. For God to be present in the future, the future must already exist. If the future already exists, it is fixed and unchangeable.

you havent shown him wrong all you come out as is an arrogant prick who thinks to highly of yourself thats why Im on your case.

You suggest your belief is a fact despite being disproven? That is nonsensical.

Do you not understand the idea of being the future? The future does exist, that is the very nature of the future. Human beings cant be in the future but an omnipotent, omnipresent one can.

You insist are trying to make God's nature like our own but that is simply incorrect.

The future does already exist, we just arent in it but God is, just as he is in the past and present. God exists outside of time, you know the place where the universe came into being? Where the singularity began?

The fact that the future already exists does not affect your ability to have free will. You make your choices, you live your life and wherever that ends up, God is already there.

again, as long as it is based on faith and belief it aint facts

States the non objective observer who quite frankly, has yet to explain why you didnt get on his case for the same thing. Hes done virtually the same thing but you ignored it.

If you dont understand what im saying, I cant change that. I can see how the concept might be hard for some people to understand.

This has no relevancy to what is being discussed. Im talking about a concept, whether or not it is possible. The concept is logical, that is a fact.

he never got on to " if you dont get the consept of this " and " you are wrong" This is about what we believe and it cant be proven one way or another, so saying that people dont get the consept of it and that they are wrong is the only thing that is actually wrong here

By your own admission, the future already exists. This means that the future is fixed. If our future is fixed, there is nothing we can do to change it. The ability to determine our future actions is what constitutes human freedom. Fixed future = no human freedom.

The only way to solve the omniscience paradox is to make it no longer a paradox. This can only be accomplished by negating the existence of one of the terms. Obviously, this is a lose-lose scenario for you which is why you obstinately assert that both can exist.

Just read his posts and you will see what im talking about. He states that what im saying is an impossibility (obviously hes saying that im wrong) and that it has to be one or the other.

Lets be honest im not gonna flip out about that, hes entitled to his opinion but why you seem to be looking for a reason to get on my case. I suppose you are saying it to me because you and I have had some disagreements and I am on the opposing side. That would be the most logical explanation.

The future isnt fixed, wasnt fixed by God. Its peoples choices that decide the future, God knows those choices as he is everywhere. He has already seen the choices you make, CHOICES being the operative word.

Our future is the future to us, we are limited to living in the present. God is not.

more that I agree with his views, not where he says you are wrong, but his arguments are more my line than yours are

If people's choices decide the future, then the future cannot exist until those decisions have been made.

Either the future already exists and is therefore fixed, or our decisions determine the future and the future does not yet exist. You cannot have it both ways.

yes I absolutely agree you just say "but god is not understandable" and "it can be both" but that ius just BS, one way or another there is no easy way out there you have to choose just saying No it can be doesn't wexplain anything.