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Assuming that there is a 'god' thing:

Can it be assumed that he IS a villain.

How can people say that he was responsible for the creation of realitty and the universe, but he wasnt responsible for things like the holocaust.

If he existed, then he should be either responsible for EVERYTHING or NOTHING. There should not be a god that is respnsible for some things, but not others.

If he is responsible for nothing, then he is not worth worshipping and not worth being categorised as a god.
If he is responsible for everything, then he is responsible for things like the holocaust, and he does not deserve to be worshipped or categorised as a god.

he wasn't responsible for the holocaust he just let it happen because God had to test people's strength ro see how much they could bare without him

lol OH PLEASE.

Yes. He is a cruel son of a ***** if he exists.

Which he doesn't.

Indeed Darth Revan is right. If God was Omnipotent he would have known from the beginning what will happen when he creates mankind ergo he is responsible if he exist. Damn he is one sick **** now isn't he?

The pain in the ass about Judgement Day is that they keep delaying it....2000....oops, 2001...2002....2003...blah.
I gave up LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ago on the Judgement Day theorem.

hey whatever you've your opinion and I've stated mine.

Wrong thread. Sorry.

Nope. He's a good guy but we suck as a species.

we indeed do
with or without God

According the old Testament, God created good and evil.... (Isaiah) and as supreme being, he is chief of good, and chief of evil... he is in fact, the epitome of all things... the Book of Enoch (excised from the Bible around 200AD) does, however, hint that the victor in the War in Heaven was actually the Rebel Angel (variously described as Satan or Lucifer...) In the Book of Job, God explicitly instructs Satan (who in this book appears to be a faithful servant of God) to destroy Job's life to test Job's faith... Interestingly enough, in the early Christian church, Jesus was often known by the epithet "Lucifer" which means Light Bringer...

The Judaeo-Christian God was only split into Good and Evil halves after Jewish encounters with the duallistic religions of mesopotamia, for example Zoroastrianism.... and originally, Jehovah was only one of many gods (or "Elohim" worshipped by the hebrews... later he did a deal with the hebrews that if they worshipped him as supreme and neglected their other gods, he would make them a great nation...

Why would god be a bad guy?The devil is the one that is bad.God is supose to be good.Where do you guys get your facts?JM

No he's not a bad guy (assuming he's male), he just isn't going to step in and solve our problems for us. He hopes that as a race we can overcome our own problems, because if he has to keep stepping in and stopping us from screwing up all the time, then our existence is basically pointless. He created us so us being here is a direct result from God, but that doesn't mean that every time something terrible on earth begins to take place he is going to step in and stop it. He probably figures that if we're stupid enough to kill our own race off and humans cease to exist because of that, then we didn't deserve to exist in the first place.

Now I don't believe in God, so I basically just answered the question how I would if I did believe in God. In reality, God's not the bad guy, human beings are the bad guy. God won't end life on earth, we will.

Not responsible, allowed it to happen. With free will, it is people who are responsible for their own choices.

I never understand why people always ask..."why did God let this happen"? Simple fact is, shit happens. God gave humanity free will, and chose to stay out of the lives of humanity, but let them come to him.God is perfect,but humanity is not.

Yeah but that makes God a bad guy since he would know everything thatg will happen in the Universe and how screwed up earth and huimanity will be and he still created us while knowing that Hitler is going to kill millions of people and that terroerists are going to kill people in his name, I mean sure if he never had stepped down to the people and said "Yo you have to worship me" then non of thos **** would have happened, Hitler couldn't have killed jews if there weren't any. So He is bad or at least indolent if he actually exists.
Now I choose not to belive in him, if there will ever be proof that he exists I will choose not to like him.

If he's not becoming a facist idiot at that moment and makes me belive in him, that is.

That just like George Bush (not only him most politicans and people that have the power to change something) having the power to do good in the world but just not doing it, I say **** free will people should live good. (Yeah I know I am kind of Brave New World there)

Now I belive that Humans should serve Humankind, but they can have good lives at the same time can't they?

What has the devil done wrong.God has done more bad than the devil. Rememder the story of Noah.He killed all the people.

Yeah I bet the Devil was a Guy who liked humanity and wanted to stop god from being an ******* so he rebeled against him, and God , as the sick **** he is, told everyone that actually the Devil is the bad one, and not htat his sadist ideas are actually what causes everything bad on earth.

god lets shit happen.... but according to the bible the death we know is not the final death... so i guess, to god these deaths are nothing more than a long sleep.... all people will wake up again at the time of the judgement day.... then the "bad" people will have to stay on earth for a while more with all their sins and all bad and lucifer and his fallen angels.... the "good" people will go to heaven and live there without sins and bad forever...
so... in my opinion god is a good guy.

Suppose that when I get dressed in the morning, I can put on either a pair of black socks or a pair of white socks.

If God knows that I will put on a pair of white socks and I put on a pair of black socks instead, God does not know everything and therefore, is not omniscient.

But if I have to put on the color of socks God knows I will put on, then I do not have free will as I have to make the choice He knows I will make.

If God is truly omniscient, then He knows whether I am going to heaven or hell before He creates me. How can an omnibenevolent God create someone only to destine him to hell? How can an omnibenevolent God punish beings that do not have free will and have to do what He knows they will do?

Well that is kind of fascist, something like hitler "yeah we gonna live all in peace and love except for jews and homosexuals and stuff cause I don't like them"
I actually like comparing Hitler with God its so true except that God is a little more powerful.

Exactly what I am saying adam_poe thanks I couldnt have put it better.

You have the free will to make your decisions, but they are just known in advance. It is a little like Cassandra in Greek mythology.

How?

Well but it was the same with Cassandra in Greek Mythology they didn't have free will anymore they just did what they would do no real decision.
If you don't have the chance to put black socks on you don't have free will, and you only have the ability to put white dsocks on since God knows you w9oll put white socks on.

And the Hitler thing I just like to do it, since God will Burn people (hell) for no particular reason and Hitler did the same.

Pr.16:4
"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
Jn.12:40
"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
Rom.9:18
"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."
2 Th.2:11-12
"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."

I do not understand what you are saying. Please rephrase this so it is more coherent.

Yes, because He requires so much out of you to go to heaven and hates everybody else.

God doesnt burn you for no reason

If he had NO reason as you say, if you had never sinned, then there is no way you could ever go to hell. Peter probably wouldnt be able to open the gates up quick enough for you.

1. A decision that is 100% known before is not a decision. Its whatever History or something.

2. I just thought it was funny since I never heard anyone compare God with Hitler. But of course you can say God supports what we nowadays define as good so this comparison is stupid of course.

I don't see what the point of human existence would be if God stepped in and intervened every time we screwed up. If he gave us all free will and we get to choose whether we want to be good or bad, do you think he's going to step in and take away our free will everytime we make the wrong decision? That would be pointless. Had there been a God I wouldn't view him as a bad guy, because he would have gave us life. Life isn't all peaches and rainbows, there are ups and downs. Don't blame the creator for war and genocide, blame the created.

But its 'god' that would have caused people to exist. They didnt ask to be created, so he created them knowing that they will eventually sin and be burned.

I doubt that there is a single living adult human that is truely innocent and has never committed a single sin (even in their thoughts). Although it is largely debatable as to exactly what is defined as a sin.

As i posted earlier, yeah he created them knowing they would sin

Pr.16:4
"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

How is it NOT a decision? I do not understand your logic. The indivual still has a choice, but God already knows what he or she will choose.

Thank you.

God wants everyone to go to heaven. However, some reject the free gift of salvation. God knows this beforehand, but God is JUST. In the end, God gives people who do not accept Him exactly what they want: nothing to do with Him. *Smiles wryly.*

so he just created them to judge them aand put them in hell?
---->*******
thats my only conclusion

You are correct, everyone will eventually sin but sins can be forgiven.

He created us as beings of worship. Everyone thinks of heaven or hell as a judgment. Judgment, in my eyes, is the seven bowls of wrath (or whatnot). Hell is complete separation from God--you are getting what you so desired in life.

No man a decision that has only one path I mean that can only lead to one cionclusion nis not na decision goddammit,.
If I can'T put on white socks tommorow, and I just thoinkk I could its not FREE WILL. God can't you understand.

And are you saying he gives us after death the opportunity to say "oh dammit I was bad give me a chance" or will he just say "your bad!! If you weren't a muslim and brought up to believe in that you would have had a chance but oh well shit happens". I meran what is a good life? I mean some people that belive in God still do shit (one of them even bombs countriesd if he feels like it (in the name of God)).

No I desired a good life with people being friendly a life that works through science and not through God how trhe **** do I get that?

You had your chance to say "oh damnit I was bad give me a chance" while you were alive. If you did not do so, well... And you speak of leading a "good life". You do not comprehend this--you do not have to lead a good life to go to heaven! You can be evil, corrupt, vile and still go to heaven, just as someone who was good, righteous, and sacrificial can still go to hell.

Just because God already knows what you will do does not mean that you don't have a choice. You can choose between white socks and black socks, but God knows what you will choose beforehand--it is not as though He is MAKING you choose black socks, God just knows what you will pick.

The former you will never have; the latter is possible. It is your choice.

eh how is that what kind of lunatic would do that?

And someone brought up in the deepest part of somalia never hearing of the Bible or anything had no chance to say so how should he knoe what this "god" person considers right .

To what are you referring?


This is a question I have asked myself and I cannot answer it.

I was refering to that:

you do not have to lead a good life to go to heaven! You can be evil, corrupt, vile and still go to heaven, just as someone who was good, righteous, and sacrificial can still go to hell.

since I don'T get your God can you explain me what he is trying to tell us with that?

God is saying that one must have one's sins forgiven to enter into heaven, and there is only one way to do so: the crucifixion of Jesus.

So you have to belive and worship god and Jesus while you life to enter heaven and that is the only possibility? So someone who rapes children andd kills woman but prays to Jesus might get in while someone who lives like the perfect Christian life but doesn't belive in God is ****ed?

And again if that is true what about Babys that fdie never hearing of Jesus or people that live in "bad" regions its not their fault that they don't know anything aboot the Christian God.

For Pete's sake, read what I wrote--YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORSHIP GOD TO GO TO HEAVEN! Yes, that is the only possibility. Yes, the rapist/murderer would get into heaven while the other fellow would not. Yes, it seems unfair until you realize that you have to do ONE tiny thing to go to heaven. Do you know how much Christ suffered on the cross? Do you know the agony he endured? The Romans had crucifixion down to an art. Through that pain you have the opportunity to live forever.

I told you, I do not know. But, think of it this way: babies can't really sin, they do not have a moral compass and they cannot disobey.

You know how many more have died on the cross and through other even worse kind of tortures? . And it is stupid God just want s us to worship him then, he doesn't care what we do and who we are, he just likes the attention he doesn nothing for us, he is a bad person. So you say Beliving is the most important thing, what about people that don't really belive in him but go to church. And me for example I can'T truly belive in god I might be able to say I do belive in god but I never really will I have no chance to come to heaven if there is any, and God knew that and he still created me , why I ask you why did he do that, he created non belivers for what reason?

Name some (forms of torture).

First off, neither is God a person nor is He "bad". God does care what we do and who we are, but he does want us to worship him...and yet we do not have to. He does nothing for us? How about breathing life into your body or sending His son to die a humiliating, agonizing death so that you have the opportunity not to go to hell?

Take a swing at that one--you tell me what happens.

You can believe in God. And if you do say that you believe in God and you do not, well, He knows everything.

nah just a load of bull

First no I can't I am uinable to, at least now.
Why do you want to know forms of torture? Well Hanging on a piano string sounds like not fun at all, that thing where four horses get each an arm or aleg and then pullk doesn't sound like fun., thinting on this sharp stone or whatever and getting weights on your legs suck, get salt on your feet and die laughing because a goat licks it from your feet isn't my favorite way to die.
But why dioes he want us to belive? And why can't he just give the non-belivers what they want to stop existing after death? Why Hell? I really don't get that.

That is not a valid argument.

neither does the chrisitans they just like to think they do

Oh thanks finti I forgot that, yes he does nothing positive for us, many people would be better of not existing, sending his son down and therefore causing more death and pain then ever before is not particular good from my point of view either. Neither is an institution like hell.

just as good as listing up things from the bible, cause they aint valid as argument either

Do you know the agony of crucifixion? I think it is worse than any of the forms of torture/death you have described. You still do not understand, though--hell is not a punishment (per se), it is the COMPLETE AND UTTER SEPARATION OF AN INDIVIDAUL FROM GOD.

crusifixtion aint the worst form of torture, phsycological torture is

I don't want to ****ing live after I am dead I want to be dead. And Crucifixion is surely not the worst death and jesus is not the only one who died from it either.

I heard about some form of Chinese torture where they kill you by slowly dripping water on your head.. it's supposed to like drive you insane or something.. I don't really get how it kills you.

And in what way am I not seperated from God now except for my grandmother annoying me with telling me I will burn in hell?

No I think they let you slowly die but while doing that you get the water dripping on you.

well it doesnt kill you, it is a psycological form or torture to break you down and it is said to be one of the worst form of torture to encounter. It aint chinese though, it is widley used especially during times of war. And in the end you probably go insane if you dont break down and spill your guts before you go insane

sounds less fun then crucifixion why didn't Jesus get that done to him?

I'd rather go to heaven.. that sounds a hell of a lot better than just dieing. I don't believe in heaven.. so it's all just a fantasy to me.. but if it existed you bet your ass I'd want to go. And jesus wasn't the only one to be crucified.. but I think being God's son might have played a role in the significance of his crucifixion. I still think it's funny how some long haired hippy guy claimed to be God's son 2000 years ago and people are still talking about it today. Jesus was one of two things: 1) God's son 2) a really good con artist.

no parties in heaven

well I'd rathet go to heaven too sounds like fun, but since I would never be accepted I rather die then life for 1000 yeards with some demons somewhere.

Because that would be pointless.. Jesus was already insane.

oh indeed I forgot about that.

iagree but god is making my life a living breathing hell or the devil plu things like this will open more and more qeustions like what happened with b2k or s*** like that

I get mine from the Bible... and the books that used to be in the Bible until the church got rid of them....

Talking of the Bible, lets see what it says about Heaven and Hell.... Well, it turns out that heaven is standing for eternity telling God how great he is, and enjoying it, and Hell is... well, sorry guys, but according to the Bible there is no eternal damnation in hellfire, or purgatory... if you repent, its praise God time, if not, then you cease to exist, and God uses his omnipotence to make it so that you never existed in the first place... Hell as a place of suffering is a foreign idea, adopted into Christianity for political reasons...

On the subject of repentance.... according to the bible, a multiple rapist who repents gets the eternal life and praise god bit... but someone who does good work all their life, steals a candy bar at age five and never repents of it, gets the ceasing to exist.... one reason I'm no longer a Christian...

It said this in the bible?That is very hard to believe.Since god to the relionish people have god as there savor.So why would they say he is a bad guy.
It makes no sence what so ever guys!JM

Interestingly enough, the "Devil" is usually associated in Christian mythology with the idea of the Light-Bringer (Luciferos)... a title also given to Christ by the early church... in most cultures, the Light Bringer was seen as a heroic, pro-human figure, opposing anti-human gods.... cf prometheus and Zeus, Ahuru Mazda and Ahriman, etc....

Please provide an example of an instance in which God knows everything but it is possible for one to do the opposite of what God knows he will do.

Or if you prefer, please reconcile how an omnibenevolent God can create an individual with the foreknowledge that he will go to hell.

Trust me, crucifixion was worse. And it was humiliating. The pain would be unbearable, to a level in which death would be a mercy.

You just don't get it, do you? God would not turn you away; there is no reason why you cannot go to heaven. Rather die with demons for 1000 years? Try for eternity. You don't see anything in hell; it is unending agony...and I'm pretty sure demons are not in the business of partying and friendship.

This is one of those paradoxical things that I cannot answer yet have puzzled over many times.

"Now, if God knows everything, does He know whether or not I am going to put mustard on my sandwich? What if I am about to put mustard on and then decide against it, did He know that?"

*Shrugs.* I don't know, to be honest. Maybe God rewrites history or something.




It is fair. The individual has the choice to serve God or to side with Satan. God lets the person choose; he or she is free to make his or her decision. To let everyone go to heaven would violate justice and free will. God still loves those who hate Him, and, in the end, He gives them freedom from Him forever.

Also, lucifer has been referred to as the morning star, while jesus claimed to be the evening star, both of which are the same thing.

Why would god punish people first and not just let them stop existing wouldn't that be nicer.
Oh and if he ceases you out of existence so that you actually never existed wouldn't he make some people that maybe liked you lesss happy?

I am not an expert but I am sure crucifixation is not the worst form of deat h there is surely something worse (and whatever, he wasn't the only one dying like that).

There's that little thing called justice. The point is, God is giving you exactly what you wanted in life. Shouldn't you be HAPPY that you won't have to deal with any Christians or God?

What?

At this I chuckle without mirth. Find me something that was worse than what Jesus suffered and then we can talk about this. You are correct that Jesus was not the only to die by crucifixion, but the process is one of the most excruciating and humiliating experiences.

try being pulled apart by 4 horses

I don't think so. Crucifixion was worse.

EDIT: Actually, I should say that the entire process LEADING to crucifixion and the crucifixion made it many times worse.

being nailed to a tree and eaten alive by ants

Maybe.

But has that actually happened? I could say being flayed alive, dunked in a saltwater bath three times a day for as long as you could be kept alive, being chewed on by insects and rodents, having your eyes gouged out, and being forced to eat yourself would be a pretty horrific death. But it hasn't happened.

The Apaches had many ways of torure so had many of the native american tribes

i don't believe in god, so for me it's just the question of belief, whether he's good or bad....

i think, if he exists he's a f*cking jack*ass!
i don#t care, how much he wants to test us and i don't care how much fault this suffering is our own (all of it....), but there are enough people who didn't do anything, who could be very religious and they're life is still a living hell!

either that or he isn't almighty!
but luckily for me,he doesn't exist at all or my hate would ruin my life!

Dragged on a hurdle to the place of execution
Hanged by the neck, but removed before death
Disembowelled, and the genitalia and entrails burned before the victim's eyes
Beheaded and the body divided into four parts (quartered).

And that is where ignorance comes into play. Being "religious" does not equate salvation. The Bible gives very clear instructions on how one must be saved. If those "religious" people choose not to follow them...well, nuts to them.

That is a politician's answer--yes or no? I don't do well with answers like that--I assume that you were not intending to be misleading--as, to me, it is like:

"Are some flowers red?"
"Flowers have many different colors."

yeah the apaches used ants as a form of torture, many other American natives had other extreme forms of torture that was to see how much pain a man could take. How long did they last after being tortured, yeah and the Iroquois flayed their victims alive so did the Hurons and Abanakis

First what about my torture up there?

Second: YOu always say atheists don't want to have anything to do with you so good God and he gives them that after death, but atheist actually would probably like to have something to do with God if he actually existed and we don't want to be separated from God and live with Demons we would either like heeaven too but since I can understand why we won't get that why can't we just stop existing as we (at least I) really wish?

But your existence ending on death isn't what you want. What every human wants is to go to hevean (surely?)

Not sure aboot that, don't klnow what heaven is but I accept that we won't exist afterwards I can deal with that, but Hell errr no I don't like that

So if you had your way, bad people would cease to exist and good people would go to hevean?

well exactly
I wouldn't define bad or good by worshipping god though
and well I am not god so what can I tell him/her what do you say ifd god is an it what I could believe best?

no2 i wouldn't want to go to heaven, if it existed! and i wouldn't like god, if he existed!

because if the prophets or whoever were right, that god is almighty, i couldn't live with the fact, that someone/thing has so much power over me! it is said that he woudln't abuse it, but, well....how could i ever trust someone, having that kind of power over me and everyone?

OK, perhaps that WOULD be worse...but, where Jesus live, crucifixion was worse. And I think it would be difficult to judge either way unless one experienced them both...bleh.

I dismissed that earlier.

They made their choice in life. After death, it is too late for them to change their minds. I'm sure they would like it more, but it is too late for them.

Because, if "the prophets or whoever" were right, God WOULDN'T use it against you. By your logic, going to heaven is the only way that God can have power over you. But what if God *does* exist and He has power over you right now? In the end, does it matter?

so it is for everyone

Dragged on a hurdle to the place of execution
Hanged by the neck, but removed before death
Disembowelled, and the genitalia and entrails burned before the victim's eyes
Beheaded and the body divided into four parts (quartered).

Tell me whats in your ways better then being crucified here?
ANd we didn't change our minds its what we want in the first place.

would he take any advantage of manipulating you??
i think you got no other choice than trusting him.... if god exists, you dont know if he already manipulated you. so... theres one other choice... so commit suicide now? you wouldnt... because there are too many people you love and who love you...

what if youd have to decide after death to go to heaven or to die.
wouldnt that be the same as deciding to or not to commit suicide?

so youd hurt all your friends all persons you took into your heart and who took you in their hearts..... just because you dont like the idea of someone beeing able to manipulate you...? you are manipulated by everything you see, everyone you get to know.... and just because 1 person/thing/whatever could do that (and you wouldnt even be able to know that).... youd hurt so many people?

you would go to heaven i think there are only a very few persons (relatively to the mass of human beeings), who actually would decide for death.... though many wouldnt admit to go to heaven in such a situation, they definitely would...

thats my opinion....

Crucifixion was a horrible way to kill people... so much so that the Romans would not allow any of their subject or client states to practice it... the only crime that the Romans would allow to be punished by crucifixion was that of insurrection or rebellion against the Empire... in other words, saying you were the Son of God and preaching love just wouldn't get you crucified... and if the Sanhedrin attempted to get anyone crucified, the Romans would have had any such attempt stopped... the Jewish High Priest just didn't have the authority... although he could have ordered a stoning... when crucified, the victim was nailed or tied to a cross, usually but not exclusively a Tau or t-shaped cross, his wrists being secured to the cross-piece, while his legs would have been secured in such a way that he could take the weight of his body on his legs... after a while, the legs would tire, and the person would hang from his wrists, arms spread... thsi constricted the chest, slowly suffocating him... so he would put the weight on his legs again... and so on... a crucified person would be bobbing up and down usually for about two or three days before they died... sometimes a seat was provided for them to prevent them dying, and it was not unknown for a crucified man to last over a week... if the governor of a province thought a man deserved mercy, or in volatile areas such as Judaea where a crucifixion during a holy period could have sparked riots, the victim would have been stabbed through the stomach or chest to hasten the death... so when Jesus is pierced, that can be read as an act of mercy, or an attempt by Pilate to not provoke a riot, depending how charitable you want to be... it was a horrible way to die, and it is documented that Pilate, held to be one of the more ruthless and unpopular governors of Judaea, enjoyed crucifixions....

I do not understand--what is your point?

BGK, I'm going to clean up what you wrote a little . (Forgive me if I mess up the order of events; I'm quite tired.)

Jesus' Crucifixion:

1. Stress and anxiety produce a condition (hematidrosis/hemohydrosis) where the capillaries in the sweat glands burst, causing blood to be excreted with sweat. So Jesus sweated blood.

2. Jesus receives thirty-nine lashes with a whip that has chunks of glass in it. The whip is designed to strip the skin from the victim's back, and, with the thirty-nine lashes, Jesus' rib cage may have been visible.

3. People gather around Jesus, mocking and insulting him, some spitting at him, and they strip him down, ram a crown of thorns on his head, and dress him in a scarlet robe. Now, these aren't your rose thorns; these are long, thick thorns that would have penetrated deep into his head.

4. Jesus is re-dressed and made to carry his cross. His arms are bound to it and it weighs a lot. Perhaps 90+ pounds? Then Jesus has to drag the thing around, stumbling as he goes. Imagine what happens when you trip, cannot use your hands to break your fall, and have a large log strapped to your back? You break the fall with your chin.

5. The nails now come into play. These huge, blunt nails--that is BLUNT; they are not like our nails--get hammered into Jesus' wrists and ankles. What's worse is that the Romans "insert" the nails in such a way that a nerve is struck in the arms, creating an immense pain on top of Jesus' arms being run through by hunks of metal.

6. Now Jesus' cross is stood upright. The straightening of his arms breaks the aformentioned nerves. (Ouch.) And so begins the long, slow process of suffocation.

Crucifixion puts all the weight of an individual on his or her breast. This causes the individual to be unable to breathe without a great deal of effort. The victim must push him or herself up (using his or her now-crippled legs) to suck in air.

People could take quite a bit of time to die in this manner (that's when the punishers broke out the hammers), as the human body has this extremely powerful desire to survive. The victim, never losing consciousness, eventually cannot push him or herself up to take a breath and would have asphyxiated.

Now, imagine being put through all this. The anxiety, the pain of the skin and muscle of your back being flayed, the gouging thorns...imagine each one being done to you. Imagine it in grisly detail, down to your very last scream. Then name a worse death.

well let say it is a heaven, and faithful chrisitians are heading there after death. What if they changed their minds then, whats the options for them.

IIRC, Pilate didn't want Jesus to be crucified. Mathew27v15:44 shows this.

Why the hell would they WANT to change their minds? And what does that have to do with this discussion?

he said no one can change their mind after death, since they are dead, you know not existing, that is what finti meant with that.

I still do not see the relevance...anyone care to clear this up?

it was aimed at the post that it is too late to change your mind about jesus and god when you are dead, my reply was a joke about what if there was a heaven and a chrisitian wanted to change his mind after he was dead, he 3wanted to go to hell cause iot sounded more fun

^ Oh. Well, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be more fun.

Its an interesting concept, God a villain, and you know what they say, the victor writes the history. Maybe Satan was a noble rebel, trying to over throw some manner of corrupt religious government.....

But a bad guy really. Hmmm. He creates a universe full of evil, but doesn't support it. We assume he could stop it if he wished, but doesn't as it is a part of some bigger picture. Ergo he is a manipulator of Machiavellian magnitude. I don't actually think, if God exists, that he/she/it is evil, but rather morally ambiguous, and as unsatisfying as it sounds, not really bound to our concepts of right and wrong.

interesting thesis
well, if god exists i dont think he'd be bound to what we know as right and wrong, either.... but why? what would he relate to when making decisions....?

the problem is that Matthew was written long after the fact.... history shows that Pilate, far from being the hand washer of matthew, was ruthless and vindictive... however, when the church became centred on Rome anti-Roman elements of the Gospels were watered down... so we have jews screaming for a man to be crucified for religious crimes, and the Roman governor saying, "I'll have none of it..." To have been crucified, the Romans must have considered jesus a threat to Rome... a rebel or terrorist.... the jews could not have demanded a crucifixion for religious reasons.... The Jews themselves thought jesus was there to lead a revolution against the Romans.... a lot of the Gospels is unhistoric... for instance, the so-called tradition of freeing a criminal for Passover... nowhere in contemporary records is this mentioned... except in the Gospels... and there is good evidence that the bar Rabbi (or Barrabus to give him his Romanised name) that the Jews shouted their support for, was Jesus himself.... jesus was the son of a rabbi ("carpenter being first century aramaic slang for "Rabbi..."

I didn'T know that, that is great to know though.

God is not a "bad guy". He is the Creator. In the beginning, he created man, but he did not create man without a will. Man chose to disobey God and that is the reason why the world is in the state that it is in...it was man's choice to bring evil on himself, not God.

Why is it that everything good that happens is because of "God's will" and everything bad that happens isn't...It's because "God gave us free will and we led ourselves to that moment"...

Religious people are such a broken record...

No, God is not a bad God. We have choices in life, we are not his robots. He made us to fellowship w/him, we have a choice rather or not we want to or not.

We indeeed have free will (maybe)
But that doesn'T have anything to do with God. I think both the good as weel as the bad things are partly created by men and by nature.

Originally posted by eleveninches
Assuming that there is a 'god' thing:

Can it be assumed that he IS a villain.

How can people say that he was responsible for the creation of realitty and the universe, but he wasnt responsible for things like the holocaust.

If he existed, then he should be either responsible for EVERYTHING or NOTHING. There should not be a god that is respnsible for some things, but not others.

If he is responsible for nothing, then he is not worth worshipping and not worth being categorised as a god.
If he is responsible for everything, then he is responsible for things like the holocaust, and he does not deserve to be worshipped or categorised as a god.

God isn't responsible for moronic things Humans do.

Originally posted by JLRTENJAC
God isn't responsible for moronic things Humans do.

Humans are part of God.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Humans are part of God.

Oh...Shaky...you're so smart....yes we are parts of God...all of us..

are you sure?

Originally posted by Bardock42
We indeeed have free will (maybe)
But that doesn'T have anything to do with God. I think both the good as weel as the bad things are partly created by men and by nature.

We have free will...the labels we put on things are created by man..The thing we call god, or entity or spirit or nature is a creative force and we are also parts of a creative force...It's our choice...no coercion to do one or the other besides your own conscious....It's supposed to be a learning thing...listening to your conscious...some just don't learn much.

God must be the ultimate aspect of reality, it must trancend every definable concept like good or evil. If we could reduce god to one of this concepts he would be a limited god.

Yes...the god/or what ever you want to call it...it the "all there is", including us...It's the ultimate energy creative force....no judgements...just creative force...

Also know as the "Law of Attaction"....It's attracted to ourselves and our thoughts...you attract what you think about....It's a creative force.

god loves us

We are all parts of "What It is"....The creative force......Creating our own reality....I feel that this life is only a song dance to what we know...or hope to know......This life is only a song.......dance sweetly, dance sweetly....just dance like Nobody is looking........

Someone that is dancing within us all.....always has been.

Why would that make God a bad guy...?????

Originally posted by debbiejo
We are all parts of "What It is"....The creative force......Creating our own reality....I feel that this life is only a song dance to what we know...or hope to know......This life is only a song.......dance sweetly, dance sweetly....just dance like Nobody is looking........

Someone that is dancing within us all.....always has been.

Why would that make God a bad guy...?????

Oh No... another chicken is going to die.

then this so called god has a funny and obscured way of showing it

I'm not going to kill anymore.....I promise.....

I don't think god or the entity or spirit or whatever you want to call it is bad....It just creates through us....we are part of it...It's just people that create what we would call wrong.

Originally posted by eleveninches
Assuming that there is a 'god' thing:

Can it be assumed that he IS a villain.

How can people say that he was responsible for the creation of realitty and the universe, but he wasnt responsible for things like the holocaust.

If he existed, then he should be either responsible for EVERYTHING or NOTHING. There should not be a god that is respnsible for some things, but not others.

If he is responsible for nothing, then he is not worth worshipping and not worth being categorised as a god.
If he is responsible for everything, then he is responsible for things like the holocaust, and he does not deserve to be worshipped or categorised as a god.

1. You think god is gonna treat us like little babies and destroy any force of manmade evil? No, it's mans fault that the holocaust happened, so man must sort it outs himself, it's probably god who helped stop Hitler anyway.

2."If he existed, then he should be either responsible for EVERYTHING or NOTHING. There should not be a god that is respnsible for some things, but not others."
Lol, i wonder why Earth hasn't been bombarded with meteorites yet? He isn't going to treat mankind like children and nurture them for their own deeds, or didn't have to, but infact he sorta did.

3. "If he is responsible for nothing, then he is not worth worshipping and not worth being categorised as a god.
If he is responsible for everything, then he is responsible for things like the holocaust, and he does not deserve to be worshipped or categorised as a god."
You suddenly came up with all this about responibility, and he's we are in this position.
responsible for the human race which is true. But he didn't make us bad, and our fault that all these bad things happened not his.

by the help of an atheist army?

Now...they'll say, "Well god works in mysterious ways."

Originally posted by Chibi Boy
1. You think god is gonna treat us like little babies and destroy any force of manmade evil? No, it's mans fault that the holocaust happened, so man must sort it outs himself, it's probably god who helped stop Hitler anyway.

2."If he existed, then he should be either responsible for EVERYTHING or NOTHING. There should not be a god that is respnsible for some things, but not others."
Lol, i wonder why Earth hasn't been bombarded with meteorites yet? He isn't going to treat mankind like children and nurture them for their own deeds, or didn't have to, but infact he sorta did.

3. "If he is responsible for nothing, then he is not worth worshipping and not worth being categorised as a god.
If he is responsible for everything, then he is responsible for things like the holocaust, and he does not deserve to be worshipped or categorised as a god."
You suddenly came up with all this about responibility, and he's we are in this position.
responsible for the human race which is true. But he didn't make us bad, and our fault that all these bad things happened not his.

"Innocent bystander" is an oxymoron; if one witnesses something bad happening and does nothing when he has the power to intervene, he can hardly be called innocent.

Originally posted by Celestialgirl
he wasn't responsible for the holocaust he just let it happen because God had to test people's strength ro see how much they could bare without him
Originally posted by KidRock
lol OH PLEASE.
No she's right.

load of crap thats what it is

I agree....that's messed up thinking....