Defining God: Discussing the nature and attributes of God

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KidRock
What do you think of god? Is he a physical being up in heaven somewhere or is it just an idea.. something you put hope into.

DuronKiller
maybe not physical... but its not created by man either.... i think its some being in another dimension... which we'll never find and would never understand it....

Jury
My Christian thought on God as what the Bible says is the One who is a Spirit, can not be seen in His form. smile ... but can be felt and experience through Holy Spirit.

WindDancer
One tough loving deity. His son was a little more kinder and caring.

Cinemaddiction
Driving force in my life.

BackFire
I belive God is an idea, nothing more.

It's something a lot of people use for motivation in their lives when they don't have anything else.

A4E
I think god does exist, but he'z like.. i dunno... well i just hate the fatc\\ct oif posting in threads like these bcuz finti and backfire think of me as a bloody jesus freak, and i am so not!! i want everyone to know that i do beliebe in god, hoever i do not believe in the roman church, and am not a jesus freak lol and i support gay marriage, and abortion (well not support it lol but agree with it) and all those stuff

finti
so where have I called you a jesus freak, jesus freak?

Bardock42
WTF people? How can you not believe in the Catholic Church?
Trust me it exists.
Its god that doesn't exist hahahahha

Cinemaddiction
The Catholic churches preachings are dated, for one, and secondly, they are a bunch of hypocrites.

Evil Dead
thirdly.......they are based on the unfounded, unscientific ramblings of people we today would consider "primitive"..........

a person doesn't know how to work a microwave.......but you expect me to take his word that he has the true knowledge of god?

Dwarfdude
God cannot be seen nor touched physically. He is something else. The whisp of wind that you feel like you can see, but in reality you cannot, that is what God is.

JohnConstantine
the first reply in this topic was wut i was thinking. Good post Duronthumb up

finti
or a delusion as we also call it

Darth Revan
This thing about "feeling" god is all a lot of hype. I spent the better part of my life doing everything they told me to, buying into all the bullshit completely, praying constantly... Then I decided it was a load of crap and quit bothering to try. I am a happier person for it. smile

Silver Stardust
Yeah, really, DR...

I see God as nothing more than an idea created by humankind.

Afro Cheese
Gos definitely isn't a physical being. I don't believe god exists but even those who do don't believe he is a physical being. At least I haven't met anyone who does.

clickclick
God is a metaphysical being (supernatural).

Evil Dead
so are trolls, fairies and leprachauns. Makes them none the more credible.

clickclick
Trolls, fairies and leprachauns are supposed to be physical, god is not.

Whether or not you find something to be believable is simply relative to the indivual.

Evil Dead
I didn't say believable........I said credible.

and no......faeries, trolls and the like are believed to be beings that exist in another dimension of space that visit our own on purpose or by accident from time to time..........like their world and ours crossing paths from time to time.

ushomefree
God exists.

The universe is far to complex to have happened by chance.

If you found a watch in the middle of the woods, one may ponder as to where this decvice came from?

Well, the same can be said about the universe we live in. Everything is in uniform with the other.

Take all the parts of a watch and place them in a cup. Shake them up for as long as you wish, and the end result will ALWAYS be a pile of aimless, non-productive parts.

Knowing so, the world must have been created with a divine mastermind... God.

Surely I provide no proof. But, this message is simply devised to inspire deep thought. What came first, the egg or chicken? Either answer, your stuck explaining how that egg or young chicken grew to reproduce it's own and fend for itself.

Fire
The idea of wether or not god exists is a personal matter, there is no proof for it and there will never be found any proof for it.

ushomefree
Fire

There is proof. It's called Science. You need to read more.

finti
and science proved god how?

Fire
Same question, I think you are seeing things that aren't there usho

ushomefree
Finti

Read books on evolution and Darwin's theory.

There is more evidence to suggest that life on this planet was created by a higher power as opposed to happening by chance.

Answering a question of this magnitude requires knowledge and understanding of Biochemistry! It's that simple. I'm currently reading a book about it, and so should you for the matter.

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could NOT possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modification, my theory would absolutely break down. -Charles Darwin

Please continue.

Charles Darwin believed that the cell is a relatively simple structure that could've evolved through natural selection. But as the quote above illustrates, Darwin himeslf saw holes in his theory should cells be proven to be too structurally complex to have evolved on their own.

Due to technological advances over the past 30 years, scientists no longer have to speculate on the cell. They now have the abililty to view and understand a cell's composition in ways that were unheard of in Darwin's time.

With this newly discovered knowledge in tow, scientist Michael Behe writes in his book "Darwin's Black Box" (Free Press, 1998) that it's impossible for cells to have evolved through a gradual process, because they're irreducibly complex.

In other words, a core set of parts has to be present in a cell in order for it to function in the first place. To explain his point, Behe uses the example of an ordinary mousetrap.

Behe argues that a mouse trap is irreducibly complex, because all it's pieces have to be present and in working order for it to function. You can't just put a piece of wood out in the attic and catch a mouse or two, then add a spring to snatch a second, and then assemble the hammer for even more.

This incremental appraoch doesn't work. Instead, all these pieces must be assembled together and functioning properly before the challenge of mouse catching can even begin.

In the same way, cells and other living organisms are irreducibly complex, which seems incompatible with the survival-of-the-fittest theory and suggests strong evidence that cells were created by God.

finti
like what

ushomefree
Finti

You have the IQ of a popcorn fart.

Is it fair to say that the computer you use could have been created over time thowing all it's parts and pieces into a blender, or simply leaving the items static for millions of years would produce a computer by chance? How about the 2005 Corvette? How about Cellular phones? How about televisions and DVD players? How about satellites that revolve in outerspace?

All these things require an intelligent creator. Elephants, Blue Whales, Sharks, Dinosaurs and YOU are no different. We (Humans) are too complex to have happened by chance. Think about how complex you are. You... all the way down to the last cell that makes up your body and organs, are just as complex... like a computer!

Do you ever have anything intelligent to say? What facts do you have to support that there is no creator? And what scientific sources are you utlizing?

Are you studying facts or using your own philosophy?

Arena Host
The existence of something can be proved by more methods than just science.
I have stated this before, a god is personal. Look up the meaning of "god" and "God". It is stupid to call something god when you do not worship it or consider it your god.

The Christian god does exist, but it is not what most think it is.

finti
oh enlighten us then

good you have something to look up to then

yeah it is called evolution

dont need any facts it aint I who try to tell people it is all gods creation, the job of proving their stuff is up to the believers, I dont have to prove a non existence besides saying.

Ive seen arguments from both sides and the faithful always comes out short with only vague innuendos as arguments, the bible as an example of the latter.
I use the experience I have in life so far to determine the simple facts at least when it comes to christianity, and Ive seen a lot during my life and nothing has supported the existent of any kind of divine powers

clickclick
Yes, there is something called evolution but one must understand the flaws in the theory and understand that there are two types of evolution. Microevolution = yes

Macroevolution = unproven, evidence that should be there supporting it (if it were true) is not.

Spontaneous generation of life from non life by random chance= unproven and is seemingly ridiculous

If somebody is willing to believe things that like, that those are somehow reasonable explanations for life existence and so on, its unfathomable that they would not accept a more logical explanation. One might suggest that creationism is not more logical but that is a completele lie and we all know it. That is what is known as denial. One can deny the truth, one can hope and wish it away but it will not change, they will remain none the less wrong.

If as Atheists believe, life were the result of random chance then life would have no purpose. It would lack the the meaning they (atheists) show it to have. There is a moral issue that they pretend to believe and yet their actions and other beliefs of theirs contradict it . As we see however, contradiction and logic matter not to an Atheist, not when it gets in the way with their worldview.

While atheists suggest that they depend on logic and evidence, we know that to be untrue. They depend on avoidance of the issue, sidestepping, backtracking, ignoring their contradictions and so on.

Science is supposed to be objective yet there is nothing objective about an atheism. They do not go hand in hand as an atheist despite what an atheist would like to believe. There has been a craftiness that I will not deny, trying to paint it as science vs religion. In truth though that is a fallacy.

I always wonder why they fear accepting that a creator created the universe,its laws and so on. They instead are willing and do accept anything else instead, full of completely unproven and illogical theories instead. It shouldnt be a mystery to me why this is and yet I am amazed by it every time I see it.

Fire
oke just give me one piece of evidence that there
A) is a creator? (SERIOUS evidence nothing like the bible says so cause that's BS)
B) that he created the universe?

clickclick
Should read :

Science is supposed to be objective and but there is nothing objective about atheism. They do not go hand in hand despite what atheists would like you to believe. There has been craftiness that I will not deny, trying to paint it as science vs religion but in truth that is a fallacy.

I always wonder why they fear accepting that a creator created the universe, its laws and so on. They are willing to and do accept anything else instead, full of completely unproven and illogical theories. It shouldnt be a mystery to me why this is and yet I am amazed every time I see it.

finti
life has no other purpose than to live it
maybe to you not to me, I find the belief in an omnipotent oniprecence being ridicoluse


actually thats how I look at christians

dont fear it just dont believe in it, big difference there

instead of what? illogical and laughable beliefs thats, guess what, unproven too!!!!!!!!!!!

no more wrong or right just as it is with those of faith they are no more wrong or right

clickclick
There are some things that you must consider first. If you are an atheist, are you willing to be objective? If not, this could and probably would indeed be fruitless.

I will not tell you here that the bible says this or that, you underestimate me. On the subject of the bible (briefly here), it is there for people to know the truth but I will move on from that for now. You must also consider what kind of evidence you are expecting for a creator. For if you are asking for visual proof, I can assure you that I can not offer you that kind of "proof". However do not mistakingly assume this to mean that there is no evidence. However we can delve into philosophical aspects, aspects of science and so on.

I am also curious as to how much evidence really plays a role in your current worldview. It certainly can not be the reason that you are (im sorry to assume) an atheist. So I must wonder how much evidence really even matters in your worldview.

As to creating the universe, I will get to that in time.

Basically I would like to know those things.

Are you an atheist?
How important evidence is in your worldview?
Also, can you accept that you will not get visual proof of the creator but that there are other forms of evidence?

clickclick
Why would it even have that purpose? It has no purpose whatsoever according to atheism. It can merely be described, as they would, what can be known as the battle to stave off entropy. A battle though that has no real purpose, it just exists according to atheism. Now as I have stated, their actions and some of their beliefs (atheists) simply do not coincide with this one belief. They contradict themselves and dont even realize it.

Though you state that you find the notion of a creator to be ridiculous, that was not was not unexpected given our last go round. However, let me give you an example of something. Lets say for instance one found 2+2 equalling 4 to be ridiculous, how would you look at that? As you know that creators can create, you can not resonably state that a creator is a ridiculous belief. However, random chance creating the universe and life from non life, is ridiculous in premise even if one chooses to accept it. I would like to see mere random chance (sans influence) create me a TV, a Mcclarren, 200 mill in cash and so on.

As to how you look at christians, that comment takes us nowhere so I will just leave it as is.

Now, you stated that its not fear but rather disbelief, however I suggest (in this case) that they are interwined.

As to the 'illogical beliefs' of christianity, elaborate if you will.

Well I believe there is a right and a wrong in this case however people are entitled to their beliefs. I do suggest to you though that everybody operates on faith.

ushomefree
Evolution is true. However, it doesn't bring light to the beginning of life on this planet.

clickclick
Let me say one more thing about objectivity.

If one is unwilling to be objective and they just want to argue, then just let me know. Its like somebody plugging their ears and yelling. Sometimes I feel like these discussion approach that. I am not here to insult anybody for differing beliefs (this includes condescention), I am simply here to share my views.

If one is willing and able to be objective, then we can have ourselves a fruitful discussion. The discussions with potential I have some time for, the ones without however, I will dismiss.

I am not going to argue just to argue, that is so pointless.

clickclick
Not quite sure why you felt the need to state that (no offense) if this was a response to me. I did not dimiss evolution entirely, we know that microevolution exists.

I wont even entirely dismiss the theory of macroevolution (though I do have many problems with it and the evidence is just not there though it should be).

Fire
A) I'm not an atheist I'm an Agnostic, I do not believe in god: but I do not exclude the chance that god exists.
B) Depends on what you mean with worldview. I do normaly not believe in anything which can't be proven, altho there are certain exceptions: like the existences of Intelligent life outside of earth. However I am always open to the possiblity that even tho I don't believe in it, it might as well be there.
C) Until I see some serious evidence, (doesn't have to be visual proof but does have to be NON debattable) of god I will never believe in god, this doesn't mean he does not exist

finti
to compare the belief in a higher being with that of simple math is so poor its border to comedy

not more ridicoluse than an omniprecence being

well if not you people do win big stuff out of random chance so

believe in a divine trinity

well it is you who comes out with things that "we all know that to be a lie" and "One can deny the truth, one can hope and wish it away but it will not change, they will remain none the less wrong" suggesting you actually wont let people be entitled to a belief and maybe you should actually take up on your own suggestion here

clickclick
Let me just say that though I do not know you, you seem to be a reasonable person.

About part C though, I feel like most anything can be debated technically speaking.

I will address your earlier questions, no problem man.

Fire
well there is a serious debate about something and then there is debatting for the sake of debatting

clickclick
Im not going to say that it is necessarily or seemingly that obvious to a person, I was however using that as an example. Perhaps you found it to be a bit insulting though so I can see your objection.

I will admit that, omnipresence is not easy to comprehend. We know so many limitations and something like that can be hard to really grasp, how can we relate.

Winning something by random chance and random chance creating things are two entirely different things.

The trinity is another thing that is not easy to comprehend. I can do my best to explain it if you would like but I certainly dont completely understand it.

You are correct man, I did say that there is a right and a wrong in this issue, something I assume that you believe aswell. I dont believe that everybody is correct, I do however believe that everybody is entilted to their own views, I would not deny that.

clickclick
Fire ill get back to you later on (Today), I dont want you think that that im avoiding the issue.

Philosophicus
"However, random chance creating the universe and life from non life, is ridiculous in premise even if one chooses to accept it"

Given enough time, anything and everything will happen. People just can't imagine that all came from chance, but if you think about it in terms of how long - billions of years - it took to manifest everything that is, it's not so ridiculous. A billion years is impossible to picture in your mind, just imagine all the "impossible" things that can happen over such a long period of time.

finti
no I just found it poor and laughable

oh I know enough on that matter, they done their best to hammer it in through 9 years of christianity as a subject at school so.......... (Christianity is mandatory as a subject at school here in Norway if your parents dont object you participate in those classes or you are of a different religion you have to take them. Everyday for 9 years)

Philosophicus
Go finti!

clickclick
Which is your opinion and you are entitled to it, doesnt make you correct and I dont even know that you really understood my intention in saying it. It was an example that was drawn to show a perspective.

Well if you dont want me to give an explanation on that then so be it, I will not force it upon you.

clickclick
So given your belief that anything can and will happen over time, does that then include a belief that over time a divine being would create a universe?

As to anything and everything happening over time, we can get further into that I suppose though at this point im curious to have you answer my question.

Chain Smoker
This is a silly question clickclick - a divine being is omnipotent, he doesn't need a lot of time to create the universe as he has the power to create it in an infinitesimally small instant. If you meant that a divine being could evolve over time, then he fails to be divine anymore, because an omnipotent, omnicient being doesn't evolve, he's suppose to have existed for eternity, needing no origin.

clickclick
I was not suggesting that a divine being would need a lot of time to create a universe.

Now your suggestion that a divine being doesnt evolve becomes problematic, as there is no basis for that. According to the theory, random chance + time = anything can and will happen over time.

You have mistaken me if you believe I was talking about God, I was speaking theoretically some divine being.

The atheistic belief that things can simply evolve, why is there any limitation to evolution? Time trumps limitations remember?

If a universe can come from nothing without cause and then come into existence without cause, why cant a omnipotent being come from nothing without cause?

In fact if anything can and will happen over time, why would said Divine being ever need to evolve? Theoretically it should be able to come as is.

Chain Smoker
Divine means unnatural or supernatural and thus does not fit into the picture of evolution/chance. Divine being(s) is not a natural possibility in other words.



God is a Divine Being. What are you trying to say?



There is no limitation to evolution - that's an unfounded argument.



An omnipotent/Divine being is superfluous in the equation if we establish the possibility that the universe came from nothing or existed for eternity. What need is there for a God if the universe can subsist eternally on its own? To explain the universe with a Divine Being who is unexplainable in itself, is not solving anything and is not an explanation as the divinity itself is without explanation. We might as well just leave it there with an unexplainable eternal universe, without superimposing just another unexplainable entity upon it.

clickclick
I do not like having to seperate and then put back together somebodies response in order for me to respond to it. If I were to do the same thing it will just become extremely messy, with quotes everywhere and a lack of organization. As a courtesy and just all around being helpful to the discussions here, can you either make few quotes or preferably make one whole response that is not seperated by every line that I wrote.

As to the limit of evolution, I was following the basic premise that through time anything can and will happen. You suggest that there are limitations but based on that premise, how could there be. I would just use the same argument that one can not fathom the infinite possibilities of infinite time.

A divine being isnt 'naturally possible' and neither is the singularity yet all signs point to that. Even an eternal universe is not naturally possible, not based on the laws of nature we have. Added to the fact that there is no evidence of that and all the evidence points the contrary. It is also unprovable and you would be arriviving at a conclusion that would be, because it is. Apparently evidence and logical explanations are not nearly as important to you as you pretend.

Is non life by random chance begetting life possible? Not based on any evidence it isnt.

I know what divine means, I also know that doesnt mean omnipotence contrary to what you have suggested. Unless you are pulling out your "Required power for a divine being handbook", then what would even be your basis for that statement?

The universe is not eternal A) you can throw that out B) even if that was the case (which its not) then you would have no room to talk about anybody who mentions a higher power. Certainly you cant say its because your belief is more reasonable.

Chain Smoker
Existence or the Absolute as such must be eternal, otherwise you end up with an edge without being able to describe what is beyond that. The term 'Universe' should mean Existence as a whole - it should imply Everything there exists, so it simply must be eternal - call that God if you want, but not God as in a divine being with a personal connection with its creation. God is simply blind eternity, nothing more and nothing less - the absurdity of all of Existence - he is the universe and therefore the universe is eternal. But if you still disagree I respect that.

Arena Host
clickclick, either you are a bias fool who doesn't look at what you are saying or you are trying to lay mind control traps in words, or both. Go back over all of your posts in this discussion and count how many times you have written hypocritical statements. Most of the information you have presented is invalid and I've read most of it from anti-athiest books written by christians. I'm not going to spell it out for you, find your own mistakes because clearly you are hardly observing when people tell you them.

finti
well if it is the trinity concept you think pf well this is how I saw it
god is one being that are/can be recognized in 3 manners: father, the son and the holy spirit
it is a dogma form the early christians and I dont think they really knew what the hell they were doing when they came up with it

clickclick
Yup, Im definetly trying to lay "mind traps" roll eyes (sarcastic) I was unaware that incredibly talented comedians visited this board.

Here is a thought, how about you point out my supposed hypocritical statements since you supposedly found incalculable amounts of them.

I dont read anti-athiesm books and your suggestion that what I have stated was invalid is incredibly weak, certainly at this point. Here is a suggestion, support what you say or stop wasting my time.

Now I read down further and see that you suggested I find them. You are indeed a troll and I will waste no further time on you.

clickclick

clickclick
I think it goes back to the jews though. It mentions the word, the father and the holy spirit being part of god in the old testament aswell.

Im not quite sure why you find it illogical so if you wouldn't mind I could use little more of an elaboration.

finti
ehh I just find the entire idea behind divine beings illogical, due to the fact that it doesnt make any reasonable sense to me whatsoever

clickclick
ok.

Arena Host
Heh heh, that was a troll like post wasn't it. I did post my real opinion of you clickclick and I am not sorry for it. I am skeptic of your beleifs, I don't know you. However, I used my own personal opinion system rating you and then told you to look at your own posts using it. That is my error and for that I am sorry. This post was a vent of my own frustration and my intention was not to cause trouble but to change your point of veiw.

Mandos
Before questionning ourselves if there is a God or not, we must first describe what he is.
Since no real proof of the existence of God actually exists, it is very complicated.
Many points of view will be written here, and all of them are important and should enter in consideration in the description of the Ultimate Force.
(Please, sentences like: God is a carebear will be rejected)
First of my question: If there is a God, is he dead or alive? Does he influence the laws of the universe when he is in it, or in another "dimension", if I can express myself that way?

Celestialgirl
Um, I say God is a higher power, like us except more power then we have. I believe God is alive because whebn I worship him there's just this thing that wants to burst out of me and i don't think that thing could be dead if i felt like that. I believe he's always there-everywhere watching us.

finti
what you want it to be

Mandos
So if I want God to be me, I am God.
This is an excentric example, but the principle applies. God cannot be what we want him to be.

finti
so if you want your god to be loving caring and just it cant be that? Why not

Mandos
God is something you don't have any control over. You can't decide if he is good or evil because you don't know. Whitch brings us back to the first question: What is God?

finti
nah, if i choose the cosmic reaction that caused the big bang as my god that would be my god. And for me that god would be that comsic reaction nothing more, no creator of rules no judicial deity and so on.
Unless you follow a set religion where the rules about what god is is already set yo can make your god whatever you want that god to be

Jackie Malfoy
Well as far as we know we know he is not human but some kind of spirt or ghost or what ever you may call it.Like the devil we can't see him but we know somehow that he is with us at all times.JM

finti
we do?

Fire
I'm sorry, however interesting this is, this does not proof the existence of a deity in anyway. It is not because we do not know the cause of the universe that it has none. It is not because we do not know the existence of the laws of nature that they were created by random chance-which is not the same thing as saying they were made by a deity. This, to me, sounds like someone using human ignorance as a way to proof god. kinda like "Cause if we can't explain it it most be god" I don't buy that.
So life without purpose is contradicted because people crie when somebody dies and so forth. I think people do not know the purpose of life, let alone know if there is or is not a purpose to life. But this does not conflict with people forming emotional bands with eachother and thus feeling sad when that person is gone.



So because humans have a moral code that means god exists? Sorry but I think you overestimate the human moral code. Most basic morals humans apply are simple applied as a way to keep society and large groups of people functioning. Over time our moral code got more and more complex like our society.
You might not know this bu Chimps and other Primates also have a moral code, not as complex as our moral code but still it shows a lot of resemblence to our moral code.


Again you use the lack of scientific knowledge to explain the existence of god. Which for me aint any proof at all, sorry.

Mandos
We don't know anything about him. And that's the problem.
Big Bang is not a God. God=spiritual power...
But it is also possible that there is no God. Nobody knows.
Therefore, we can't define what God is. Debate close, unless God appeared in front of you. But let me doubt it.

ushomefree
Fire

Clickclick is simply relating a couple of interesting facts or understandings that point to a creator. While his argument may be weak, it certainly doesn't DISPROVE a creator in your favor! There is a vast amount of information regarding the essence of a creator. You must divorce yourself from the nonsense (people's philosophy) and take genuine steps in understanding all facts and circumstances before making decisions. A topic of this magitude DOES NOT have simple answers. You must study the facts! There is no other way. You cannot rely on your own philosophy. The world is bigger than your small little mind!

I've been studying for about 4 to 6 months referring to books on evolution and secular history, and my finds are truely amazing! Surely, I don't present facts myself and I'm not trying to. I'm simply saying that you obviously haven't studied and that you should.

More facts point to a creator... not the other way around. You would know this if you'd did your homework.

I'm curious, what FACTS do you have that support God (or a creator) being false? Time for you to speak.

Fire
was I talking to you?

If you would have read all my posts Usho you would have known that I never stated god does not exist, I simply do not believe in god. There is a difference. Also the entire point of proving something is proving that exists not that it does not exist. that's the entire base of science

clickclick
According to the theory there is not supposed to be a cause for the universe, if there was then that points to a creator. Its supposed to be the result of uncaused random chance. Now the universe having a begining is based on evidence. Im following a logical pattern here to draw some conclusions.

We know that creators can create, it is logical to believe that something that came into being was with cause. It is dictated by the law of cause and effect. What do we know that came into being without cause? Or what has random chance created that was unaided by outside forces?

As to the laws of nature, same thing. We have proof that laws can be enacted, when has random chance created laws? Why would any laws get created let alone numerous ones? Science can search for a million years and that isnt going to be explained. Its certainly wasnt a necessity and random chance would bring chaos not laws for order.

As to life without purpose, the point I was making was that most people dont treat it that way. Even people who purport to have that belief do not. We all treat life like it has meaning, save for maybe a psychopath here and there. Why should any one life matter? Emotional attachments to meaningless, purposeless creatures? It doesnt follow.



I am not using a lack of scientific knowledge, I am using scientific knowledge + evidence and it is congruent with what im saying. Now when I talk about the moral code, that doesnt mean that everyone adheres to them or that everybody is in agreement. However this isnt because moral law does not exist but because people have differing beliefs. Everybody isnt right. If somebody has moral relativistic beliefs, there should be no laws enacted on the basis of morals. If there is no true right then there is no true wrong. Of course even people who claim to have moral relativistic beliefs contradict themselves. As to chimps, they along with the rest of the animal kingdom do not have moral codes. They do operate in a way that is beneficial to their existence but it has nothing to do with morals, they are acting instinctively. That is not the same with us.

Fire
I'm not really getting your reply but I'll read it a few more times when I have more time. I still doubt it's gonna change my mind tho

Fire
A): probably nothing, but this does not mean that nothing exist, our scientific knowledge is very limited, ppl haven't been around very long and the universe and everything in it is very complex.
B): Same answer as question A)
C): No idea, but just because we do not know of it, does not mean it has never happened
D): No idea, but it doesn't mean they were created by god.

See my Logic, I'm not saying God doesn't exist or anything. I'm just saying this doesn't proof that God exists. I know this might seem like a weird type of defense but just as you believe in your faith. I believe in letting all options open.

clickclick
Hey man, I dont really expect to change yours or anybodies mind. I believe that there is sufficient evidence however for me to draw some logical conclussions. Now I'm also aware that two people can look at the same thing and get different conclusion but for me, it is as I said. Im willing to be objective on all this but that is so long as the other possibilities are logical. If I dont feel they are, I will not entertain the ideas. To each his/her own.

Fire
True, true, I know you didn't expect to change my opinion. Sorry if I came across that way, wasn't ment to.

This is one of the better discussions I had about wether or not god exists tho.

eleveninches
What do you define as a 'God'
What is your own definition of a 'God'

This is not asking what that god is like, but it's asking how do YOU define a 'God'

?

finti
god: being/beings that have supernatural powers and are set to rule life on earth, tyrants that shall be worshiped by humans.

Jackie Malfoy
That is a hard question.I guess that you have that feeling that god is wijth you and watching you at all times.And it is like the sences we have of hearing seeing and touching.
It is just there for me somehow.JM

eleveninches
So if you were being stalked, you would classify your stalker as god??
This isnt about what you feel a god would do, but how you define them.

WindDancer
This is mine:

God: The Father and the son and spirit as ONE. Originally God created the universe to observe the magnitute of his/her powers. We are nothing but guinea pigs for an experiment. Our suffering and happiness are meaningless to God. All we are are nothing but organic meatbags with the only purpose to serve as an experiment. Whether you worship God or don't belive in God it doesn't matter. You're just an experiment....nothing more.

Fiery Eyes
Define God: full of mercy, grace, love, forgiving, full of kindness, gentleness, slow to anger. Always there, no matter the time of day or nite, he doesn't put you on hold, or say we'll talk later, HE'S there. the more you are around him, the closer you can feel him. If you run to him, he'll run to you. He's a friend, that we all want in life.

eleveninches
So if there was a human that matched that exact description that you gave, you would classify them as god???

Storm

Rose of Isis
The problem with defining God, particularly if referring to the reasoning of Anselm, is that the arguments used are so often circular. People continually attempt to prove his existence by claiming that as God is a conceivable being, with the concept of him being so infinitely great, that this implies he must exist. I find it a flawed argument as it assumes that anything conceivable has potential to exist.

*wonders if that made sense*

debbiejo
I can't even conceive of God. He is all the wonderful things like love, But I can't help that if I met Him I would feel terror! Good thing He loves me.

eleveninches
discuss here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t322850.html

Philosophicus
God can be very simply defined: The highest form of being, in the sense that it includes all conditions of existence in its comprise and steering all processes within existence via omnipotent intelligence.

debbiejo
God is unfathomable. Boy that's a big word in the morning. But I think for some reason He cares about us. Love? of course. God is also your worst nightmare.

Philosophicus
Well, FUUUCK god if he doesn't care about us - I know he doesn't even exist - he told me so himself!

eleveninches
/\laughing out loud

debbiejo
^ ha ha, OK then. God is unfathomable and could be your worst nightmare. And I'm glad it/he loves me. stick out tongue

eleveninches
Is the fact that it loves you actually proof that it is unfathomable?

Philosophicus
How can a loving god be one's worst nightmare? If god is to be love at all, then he must be unconditional love, thus it would be an act of hate to send a creature he created himself to hell.

Jackie Malfoy
Oh sorry I must had misread what you said.I say god is the creater of the world and made us the way we are.JM

debbiejo
I don't believe God sends people to hell to burn foreever.

I feel God gives you a choice to believe in Him and if you don't He honors your choice.

Cthulhu
The question depends on what religon you follow.

Different ones have stricter or looser definitions,

for example, christianity's criteria is that you be one of the holy trinity (either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit/Ghost) notice also that although there is and can only ever be one true deity, room is still left for "demi-gods", angels for example, could be considered such.

While a more earth based religon might say that anything that has the power to create/suspend a natural phenomonon fits the definition of a "god".

so, godhood is relative...for me anyway...

Shakyamunison
Everything, you name it, throw it on the pile.

Lord Melkor
A higher power, the reason behind universe, the drive of evolution.

debbiejo
God honors your choice because it is part of what It is...and what we are.....It's unfathomable...the choice being whether you see It or not...not condemning you for not believing....

I don't even know what to call It......But it could be a lot like George Carlin..

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by debbiejo
God honors your choice because it is part of what It is...and what we are.....It's unfathomable...the choice being whether you see It or not...not condemning you for not believing....

I don't even know what to call It......But it could be a lot like George Carlin..

laughing out loud

Emperor Ashtar
I've heard many people claim that there is no evidence of the exsistence of GOD and/or Gods. Yet, these are the same individuals who believe GOD to be some invisible Sky-Father in the clouds.

So, I ask you all, especially those of faith to answer me this one question: What is GOD?

Quiero Mota
Um...God.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Um...God.

Well, most people don't use the term to be defined in their definition.

Boris
A fairytale.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, most people don't use the term to be defined in their definition.

True.

Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
So, I ask you all, especially those of faith to answer me this one question: What is GOD?

How do want that to be ansewered? "God is..."

xmarksthespot
A societal construct.

Emperor Ashtar
I also find it to be a personal construct as well.

Mindship
"God is..." ...not a Republican.

debbiejo
God/Spirit/Source/Universe is all things and in all things visible and invisible. Energy, cause and effect, a force we cannot not comprehend.

Emperor Ashtar
Originally posted by Quiero Mota




"God is..."

Just go into detial of your pre disposed perception of GOD and how you came to this conclusion.

Healing Artisan
Originally posted by debbiejo
God/Spirit/Source/Universe is all things and in all things visible and invisible. Energy, cause and effect, a force we cannot not comprehend. agree

Emperor Ashtar
Originally posted by debbiejo
God/Spirit/Source/Universe is all things and in all things visible and invisible. Energy, cause and effect, a force we cannot not comprehend.

If we cannot comprehend this force, how do we know it's GOD?

debbiejo
Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
If we cannot comprehend this force, how do we know it's GOD? We just call it that for convenience. I don't know, you want to call it Bob? I'm cool with that. cool

Emperor Ashtar
Originally posted by debbiejo
We just call it that for convenience. I don't know, you want to call it Bob? I'm cool with that. cool

Or I'll call it the universe, but if you want to call the universe God it's fine by me.

debbiejo
Well I did also call it Universe. But Bob sounds more friendly. cool

I vote a name change.

Xenogears
God is the monotheist deity that some people believe in.

jollyjim311
God is:

A great robed bearded Skyfather who creates everything "I Dream of Genie" style. He watches over all and allows mass genocide, ever-burning souls, and the betrayal of his own creations as part of his "master plan." He hides from airplanes, space shuttles, satellites, and most aviation-based technology. Also, he is the guy who makes clouds look like ice cream cones and all shapes and types of canines from time to time.

Magee
God is a fictional character who has taken on thousands of forms over thousands of religions which span thousands of years. He/she/it is simply the product of an over active brain which thinks to much and that human feeling that some people get of needing a purpose/ way of life to even get up in the morning. God has also been used many times in human history to control the followers of said God and to justify acts of war.

Simply put, humans created God. It can be anything you want it to be.

Jim Reaper
God is a crutch for people who think that they will live forever. You'll never get a definitive explanation of what god is from the church... They like to stick and move these days. It's tough to keep pace with science after all.

FeceMan
God is not The Matrix.

yogert
we have no way of knowing who or what god is. We've ask our sevlves that since the beginng of mankind. but ask yourselves do u have any idea what the hell your talking about....no. so don't listen to ANYBODY else to find god.
you got one choice, belive or dont belive.so how much does god matter to you

Magee
0

ADarksideJedi
God is a spirt that you have to believe even if you can't see him.Sometimes not seeing is believeing.You have a feeling that he exist in your mind.
Even if you are not christian you still know that he exist that you choose to deny and lie to yourself other wise.jm

jollyjim311
Why would God allow the Holocaust, then?

Symmetric Chaos
God is whatever or whoever you need it to be. God is the aspect if life that makes you feel complete no matter what it is.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by debbiejo
God/Spirit/Source/Universe is all things and in all things visible and invisible. Energy, cause and effect, a force we cannot not comprehend.

Yeah, that about says it.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
God is:

A great robed bearded Skyfather who creates everything "I Dream of Genie" style. He watches over all and allows mass genocide, ever-burning souls, and the betrayal of his own creations as part of his "master plan." He hides from airplanes, space shuttles, satellites, and most aviation-based technology. Also, he is the guy who makes clouds look like ice cream cones and all shapes and types of canines from time to time.

And he lives on Mount Olympus.

Originally posted by Jim Reaper
God is a crutch for people who think that they will live forever. You'll never get a definitive explanation of what god is from the church... They like to stick and move these days. It's tough to keep pace with science after all.

Sometimes I think that.

Emperor Ashtar
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
God is whatever or whoever you need it to be. God is the aspect if life that makes you feel complete no matter what it is.

Best explanation in my opinion.

yogert
you are all saying the same things over and over again. Why because u listen to the church and all those other basterds about what god should be. do any of you really think tou have a clue to what god is.
and you may hate the church and all these people whorship god when you
never had the balls to find god in yourself
and you might never be at peace with god beacause you probably wont know who or what god is. but god is in every one.

Rogue Jedi
I tend to stay away from churches. Church is here *points at chest*. It's not some wooden building full of hypocrites.

PITT_HAPPENS
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
God is whatever or whoever you need it to be. God is the aspect if life that makes you feel complete no matter what it is. God is the Sci-Fi channel eek!
















stick out tongue

Jim Reaper
Originally posted by FeceMan
God is not The Matrix.

They're both nonsense.

753
what about pantheistic definitions of god? can they reconcile materialism with the idea of a deity?

Mindship
God by nature is undefinable. Only attributes are discussed.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Mindship
God by nature is undefinable. Only attributes are discussed.
But, right there you already have used a definition. Your definition of God is that he has to be undefinable. Sorry, that doesn't work.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by King Kandy
But, right there you already have used a definition. Your definition of God is that he has to be undefinable. Sorry, that doesn't work.

How does that not work? Something that is undefinable by definition is undefinable is just semantics bracking down, not the meaning that is being expressed.

753
Originally posted by Mindship
God by nature is undefinable. Only attributes are discussed. well, there are reasonably well defined concepts that are called god

Shakyamunison
edit

King Kandy
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How does that not work? Something that is undefinable by definition is undefinable is just semantics bracking down, not the meaning that is being expressed.
He says that God is, by nature, undefinable.

The problem here is that you would have had to have defined what God's nature is in order to make such a statement.

753
you'd just be listing one atribute though. Not really a definition.

King Kandy
I don't see what possible value saying it is undefinable has then. Its impossible to list every single attribute of anything in this world; I don't see why God gets special status.

ADarksideJedi
A physical Being

Mindship
Originally posted by King Kandy
But, right there you already have used a definition. Your definition of God is that he has to be undefinable. Sorry, that doesn't work. You are correct, sir. Any 'definition' (even mine) ultimately falls short (though mostly, in this instance, I was just playing with the words of the thread title).

Originally posted by 753
well, there are reasonably well defined concepts that are called god Indeed. We are not short on effort.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't see what possible value saying it is undefinable has then. Its impossible to list every single attribute of anything in this world; I don't see why God gets special status. Because trying to comprehensively define God generates paradoxes. 'God' is beyond language and logic, not merely exhaustive of them (as if trying to list every attribute). This is one of the reasons the 'reality of God' is rejected. In the context of language and logic, 'He' doesn't make sense (eg, omnipotence paradox).

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Mindship
God by nature is undefinable. Only attributes are discussed.

I disagree. While "gods" in the generic sense are undefinable (the Greek, Hindu and Christian concepts are all obviously very different but referred to with the same word), "god" in the specific is always defined in some way.

More than than that, a nonexhaustive listing of attributes would constitute a definition anyway. If it didn't then everything would be undefinable.

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