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This is a battle of telepaths. Here's the rules.

1. Both can ONLY use their telepathic abilities. Martian Manhunter is NOT allowed to use any of his other powers (i.e superstrength, superspeed, Martian vision.
2. They don't know anything about each other. They have just met.
3. Professor Charles Xavier is at his normal power levels (i.e. no Onslaught). Martian Manhunter is at his normal power levels (i.e no Fernus).
4. Due to recent events Martian Manhunter is no longer vulnerable to flame and no longer fears it. (The Burning storyline of the JLA).
5. No outside influences. MM can't call in the JLA. Prof. X can't call in the X-Men.
6. No enhancements. MM cannot use Martian technology to boost his telepathy. Professor X cannot use Cerebra.

Discuss and debate!

probably xavier, DC operates in a higer level in terms of strenght and speed, the telepaths are Marvel territory.

I do read in dcguide that the martians have a special thelepathic attack that they can use only once, and i think MM already use it to defend the earth so....

I say MM.

me to

Noone likey this thread?

i think charles...dat dude is a hectic telepath....it hink u would posses the cerebral strength to take out MM

Xavier

Believe it or not, Martian Manhunter is a stronger and more adept telepath than Charles Xavier. MM is capable of mind-reading, astral projection, psi-bolts, and mindwiping just like Charles Xavier is. However, there are a few things in favor of our favorite Gumby.

When Charles Xavier first discovered his mutant powers, he endeavored to train himself in the use of his powers. MM on the other hand is quite different. The Martian society that MM grew up has thousands of years of culture and advancement. The Martians were all telepathic and developed new and different techniques as years passed on. MM absorbed all of these techniques instantly via telepathy. MM's brain virtually houses thousands of years of telepathic techniques, battle strategies, and training. Charles Xavier was self-taught. MM is capable of connecting with every sentinent person on Earth. Charles is incapable of this action without the aid of Cerebra. MM once mindwiped 70 different people around the globe simultaneously, including Lex Luthor. Charles Xavier exhausted himself mindwiping ONE (i.e. Magneto). MM has literally everyone of his peoples', from the beginning of his race to the end, telepathic prowess, experience, and techniques. Charles Xavier only has his experiences. MM takes this one without a doubt.

After I heard that, maybe I put my money on MM.

Yay! I converted one. And Doctor Doom, no less!

Charles has one power MM doesn't. Telepathic manipulation. He couldn't connect with everyone on earth, but he could control the actions of everyone in his vincinity, possibly further. Remember, with the help of Jean Grey, he subdued the Phoenix.

o0o...hmm...maybe i go with MM...i didnt know he was THAT powerful....he mayb beat da lil baldy

Charles couldn't connect with everyone around the globe without Cerebro, but he did contact aliens several light-years away. Maybe Martian Manhunter could control more people, but I think Xavier has a more powerful affect on them. Martian Manhunter's powers are moreso for communication, causing memory loss, and incapacitating his victims. Charles can do all of this and manipulate his victims. Magneto had developed limited mental abilities to resist Xavier's control. All of the people Manhunter mindwiped were only humans with no resistance to him. Xavier also defeated the Shadow King by himself on the Astral Plane. Don't count him out of the fight quite so quickly.

Xavier takes down the somewhat jolly green gaint

If your talking about Hulk, Mainstream, that isn't a very good comparison. Despite Bruce Banner's genius, Hulk's mind is actually very fragile.

To supessucks:

A very valid argument. Charles CANNOT contact aliens light-years away. He can only contact his off and on soulmate the Shi'ar Queen Lilandra. Martian Manhunter is capable of mental manipulation, even more so than Charles Xavier. He has more than two-thousand years of telepathic experience. Charles Xavier only has his own limited experience. Everything Charles can do, MM can do better. The Shadow King is one very powerful opponent that Charles barely defeated (at the cost of his legs no less). MM once battle 400 White Martians in psychic combat and won. Charles Xavier was a self-taught telepath. MM was a war general that studied and mastered over two-thousand years of Martian telepathic techniques, skills, and principles. In essence, Charles Xavier has barely scratched the surface. It's like comparing a elementary school math student to a Harvard-educated mathmatician. Its no comparsion. The things that Charles has mastered as an adult, MM had mastered as a child. All Martians are naturally telepathic. Telepathy is their way of life. They've created hundreds of styles, techniques and skills for thousands of years. MM mastered them all. MM takes this one.

mm all the way. i cant imagine what i could add that draco hasnt said but remeber that MM has mindwiped 70 equally powerful pychics, and made them believe they were ordinary beings plus manipulated world leaders in the middle east all the way from his home in colorado.

shadow king is one guy who charles took 4ever to beat, he needed help with phoenix, he could barely contain proteus even though he was assissted by psylocke. lastly when sebastian shaw was trying to unleash phoenix to suit his needs, and the entity took over and was about to kill shaw he boke out his patented lame ass "if you kill, you'll be no better than him" speech. he was trying to shut down her emotions talking bout, "no jean i wont let you kill him, i wont let you be a murderer" or something like that and the phonenix who now took over jean gave him a quick lash and shut him the f*ck up.

Manjaro, for the record, Phoenix is much more powerful than Professor X or Martian Manhunter.



Has Martian Manhunter ever exhibited Mind control? Mindwiping Telepathic linking, and Mind control are all completely different. His profile does not say that he has Mind control, but I have given you the benefit of the doubt. When Professor X shut down magneto's conscious he was not exhausted. He absorbed Magneto's conscious and powers and became Onslaught, who would definately beat Martian Manhunter in telepathic combat. Professor X has communicated telepathically with the X-Men and Starjammers from lightyears away (once again, during the Phoenix Saga,) and the Shi'ar (not just Llylandra.)

Training and strategy can only take you so far. Ability is key. I hate to do this but this is the only semi-accurate way of comparing Marvel and DC characters; click on each of the links below.

http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/martian_manhunter.htm
http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/professorx.htm

The chart says Xavier's mind is more potent.

To supessucks:

You're basing your assumptions on a internet role-playing game?!



ONCE AGAIN you have confused the 90's cartoon with the comic book. Charles Xavier did NOT communicate telepathically with the X-Men and the Starjammers light-years away. This never happened. Charles Xavier was unable to do so because the Cerebro was limited to Earth. Charles Xavier WAS exhausted from mindwiping Magneto. He was bedridden for days. Magneto's subconscious infected Charles Xavier. This was catalyst for him becoming Onslaught. All of the angry, negative feelings that Charles Xavier had been supressing broke free. Charles Xavier never had Magneto's powers when he was Onslaught. He just had Juggernaut's powers and his own immense strength.

The "resources" are completely irrelevant. One: because its freakin Dungeons and Dragons role-playing game. Two: It's not a reliable source because it has several inaccuracies about his powers (MM doesn't have heat vision).

Experience and Strategy ARE the Keys. MM has techniques Charles wouldn't dream of. Also his brain is different. He can constantly shapeshift his brain to confuse Prof. X. He once made his entire brain into a right hemisphere so that he could escape a maze designed by the Joker. (Rock of Ages/JLA). Charley is going down for the very same reasons I stated above.

Hey, it was the best I could do. Onslaught does have command of Magneto's magnetic power. Before I continue to debate, are they fighting on the astral plane?

To supessucks:

Onslaught had a psychic semblance of Magneto's powers but not his real powers. His armor just reflected the the infection of Magneto's subconscious.

They are fighting telepathically. So yes, the astral plane is a viable battleground.

Then again, perhaps you are right. I conceed. You have "converted" me. Besides, current Xavier is unable to use psychic power.

Really!? When did that happen?! I don't read Excaliber. It's kinda corny anyway.

I'm not sure when or how it happened, but Marvel says so.

chuck all the way.

I actually think that Xavier's powers are more highly trained. MM may have the powers, but we have never seen all of them exhibited. He could have them dormantly stored, and a single battle wit Xavier would not release all of them. Also, MM does have some telepathic might, but when he fights, he uses his Martian Vison (or w/e its called), his strength, and other powers besides his telepathy. If he were to fight without using his other skills, he wuld be at a loss of experience. Where as Xavier has had to rely on his telepathic powers as his core weapon. He uses them frequently, and has become known as a prominant telepathic icon, who many people suspect is the strongest telepath. My vote is for Xavier.

just because MM's society has been doing telapathic things for thousands of years doesnt mean hes a better telepath. example, the asgaurdians have been using huge amounts of physical strength for a hell of a long time, and hulk when he was only created for a few years surpassed basicaly all of them in physical strength.

marvels telepaths are much much stronger than DC's, please give me an example of MM doing anything close to X's level

wrong!!!!! about marvel's telepaths that is. we have seen time and time agin that dc operates on a riducoulsly more powerful level that that of marvel plus chuck has admitted ooon many occasions that the only ppl in the enitire world's mind that he cant read or have any major effect on are shape shifters, and those who can beome intangilbe (even if thry are not using the power at the time). has he has said about mystique and shadowcat. in fact he has conceded this to them on many occasions

and guess what? MM has both powers down

for the record supessucks i never said that MM was more powerful than phoenix, just charley

? when did Xavier say he cannot use his powers against shapeshifters and intangables? He mentally probed Sprite (modern day shadowcat) and can knockout Mystique with a mental bolt. I havent seen DC operate on such a "ridiculously greater" power scale. Phoenix absorbed a star; Galactus and Destroyer are far more powerful than Superman; Surfer is just as fast as Flash; Hulk destroyed an astroid twice earth's size; what does DC do that's so much more powerful?

Well, Superman blew out a star with his breathe once, and I've already mentioned the whole planet juggling and sneezing away a solar system trick. And we won't even mention Flash.

As I said, Phoenix consumed multiple stars, and Galactus eats planets for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And let's not even mention Thanos, or Silver Surfer.

Regardless, I'm talking about current day characters, not past "pre-crisis" characters.

I wonder if he eats moons for snack?

you never know....

Well, you're refering to cosmic beings there, and it actually makes sense for them to be that powerful, unlike DC's overpowered characters.

Ummmm, did you just change your name?

Sprite? dude thats a weak ass argument if i ever heard one. the last time kitty referred to herself as sprite was back in the 80's dude.......the 80's!(at least as far as i remember). contrary to what you might have believed ,once intangible ktty's mind cannot be read or her scent cannot be picked up. xavier said this himself when he sent her along with the team to do some recon(cant remember what issue) he said something to the effect of,"what better person to send than one who's mind cannot be read." and if you remember in ultimate x men. the one where wolverine tried to kill scott when she snuck along for the ride she hid in the back of the jet and wolvie couldnt smell her while she was in shift.

as for mystique

mystique #1. direct quote from xavier

"Mystique eludes most coventional forms of detection, and i am unable to get a telepathic lock on her ever shifting gray matter."

issue:2 xavier and forge try to locate mystique. another direct quote

"my telepathic abilities remain useless in locating mystique herself, so i am forced to rely on ppl who may have seen her.......i have scanned more than 30000 minds in the area you suggested, and i have yet to uncover a single eye witness."


issue #3 after finding and rescuing mystique she does not believe it is charles xavier though she denies being involved in a terroist attack

mystique: im not lying, Xavier!, Go ahead read my mind

X: you know full well that your powers prevent me from doing that mystique. And even if i could, your mind is not a place i long to visit.

after they get to one of xaviers safe houses

X:........future breifings will be handled telepathically.

M: how ? i thought your powers didnt click with mine

X: i am unable to divine your thoughts or where abouts, and i cannot control your actions, but communication is possible over short distances

lets jump all the way to issue #7 everyone meets up at the house M is staying. she jokingly offers to lecture chuck's students on ethics. chuck gets mad. direct quote

"If you ever set foot within 500 yards of my institute you will live just long enough to regret it. you maybe one of the few mutants alive who's mind i cannot read, but that does not mean i am unable to harm you.!"

the harming part would make sense seeing as she is just a mutant but i highly doubt he could do the same thing to a high order psychic like J'onn.

tee hee Sprite..........that one actually made me laff

dude first of all, in your infinte wisdom it must occur to you that any asteroid thats twice as big as earth are otherwise known as planets. secondly an asteroid by definintion is a small celestial body between planets. as far as a greater scale, dude your pulling cosmic beings out of your ass man. charcters who are understandly that powerful. there are regular ppl in dc with that kind of power.

how about Dr. polaris(magento ripoff) who while hopped up on joker gas turned himself into the north pole and was shifting the earths planetry axis, and the eqautor as he was moving along. something mags could only dream of doing under his own power

how about when superman flew so fast in one direction he sucked the air out of everybodys lungs and knocked them out. he did that twice by my count most recently when he fought against those ripoffs of the charcters in the Authority.

and how about the fact the just about every single major JLA /JSA villain waves power on a planetary scale, some universal. and they have to deal with ALL these ppl at some point or another. its like every next issue they face off against another universal destroyer, while in marvel one team pretty much gets one big bad guy to deal with, then its back to foiling bank robberies, terrorist acts, and mad scientists.

FF=galactus, then back to third rate villans

X-men=dark phoenix, magneto

Hulk=Abomination,militatry guys who want his blood to make a clone army, absorbing man sometimes

Avengers=LOki, alien invasions

defenders=Yandroth(old school)

lol manjaro ur good

Actually my infinite wisdom tell me that an asteroid is any interplanetary, or intersteller planitoid body, larger or smaller than any planet (the largest asteroid Mathilde is larger than Mercury.)

Whether Martian Manhunter could shapeshift and become intangable or not, it is irrelevant as physical attributes mean nothing on the astral plane.

My infinite wisdom also tells me that you don't read many Marvel comics. Most of the enemies that the more powerful marvel characters (not Spiderman, or Daredevil, mind you.) fight are aliens or gods. The Celestials, the Destroyer, the Collector, Galactus, Contemplator, Ego, Apocalypse, The Obliterator, Redshift, Enchantress, Terrax, or Thanos. All of them have power on a universal scale.
Does Joker possess planetary or universal power? Or Solomon Grundy? Or how about Harley Quinn? How many DC villains, besides Doomsday and Darksied, have universal power? How many people, (over the age of 12) even like the Justice League?

yes i agree it is irrevelant bcuz the fact that charles couldnt affect his mind they wouldnt even end up on the astral plane in the first place.

the point of breaking out the mistique thing was to show that a shapeshifter doesnt have to activate thier power to be impervious to charles, the fact that they have unstable molecules in the fist place is what makes the diff so j'onn would just walk over and back hand him out of his wheelchair and its over

secondly i wasnt trying to go t-i-t for tat as to what company has the most powerful beings. Again you make the mistake of calling upon cosmic beings and mythical dieties to make an argument for you. i am merley trying to point out to you that there are more "regular" plain ol bad guys in DC that has that kind of power, more than marvel does.

thirdly, all those characters you mention prove my point. for they are gods and cosmic beings, "which understanbly has that kind of power". they are in one or a few ppl's rogue's gallery. the only one on your list that makes any sense his apocalypse for he is only a mutant.

whenever Ego shows up in a comic you know that thor,thanos, or galactus must be near by. whenver you see the celestials they always go against thanos, or any body else who trying to stop them from doing something, but they never show up to earth and all the heroes have to band together to dispatch them. and galactus and his heralds only came to earth a few times with the exception of SS of course, and they always show up on the Fantastic 4's doorstep. but other than galctus, and apocalypse who else on your list has a vested interest in earth. to the point where they would want to lay siege to it, enslave or destroy the population? hardly any.

all those cosmic beings operate else where in the universe , or in different dimensions, and thats where they stay for the most part. but, whenever some god or demon shows up one person usually gets rid of them. the same way strange always stop dormammu all by himself. SOMETIMES, enlisting the aid of others. , but how many times has charcters like
Darksied
Mongol
Brainiac
Doomsday
Gen Eiling
Amazo
obsidian
general Zod
Dr. polaris
The sin eater
Grayven
GOG
the fairy tale lady
primordial evils like maggedon, id and JJ thunders genie's evil twin Djinn
Metallo
Sinestro
actually tried to destroy the earth for some reaon or another so that an entire group of heroes have to get involved. thats what im talking about. and of all these only a few are from outer space, or pan dimensional. whereas in marvel each and every one of the real heavy hitters are cosmics or gods.

Enchantress and Destroyer are both from earth. So is the Leader, and Onslaught, and Loki.

BTW, you're edit

Loki, Enchantress, and destroyer are all from Asgard buddy, thats not Earth. thats an extra dimensional realm, so much for how much you know.

i can only imagine what you wrote b4 paola edited, im sure whatever it was it couldnt have been good. shows you how some ppl cant accept it when thier silly arguments get shot down.

BTW last time i checked the leader wasnt a heavy hitter

What about Ceres?

Can they throw stuff at each other with there minds?

that would be telekisises an abitliy that j'onn doesnt have but charles has limitedly

Telekinesis doesn't apply on the Astral plane. Since when does Xavier have telekinesis?

He doesn't. Although his Ultimate version does.

I never read Ultimate X-men... I'm a disgrace.

Wow! I am shocked that most people here think that MM could take out XAVIER. XAVIER is the epitome of telepathy. He is the icon of telepathy. He's the man that nerds and dorks sum other telepathy to. He is an omega level telepath. The only person who is prolly more powerful than him is X-Man. This guy turned magneto into a vegetable, he got through a telepathic static that X-Man caused causing the astral plane to disrupt and other telepaths to lose their powers when he got into our timeline which by the way is not an easy thing to do because we can see xavier , bleeding through his nose, and shut down the phoenix force. Before you say MM is this and that, mind your p's and q's kids.

Xavier is the "epitome" of physcic abilities because A.) More people know about him, B.) Not very many know about MM, and C.) Manhunter's psychic abilities are sometimes overshadowed by his many other abilities (flight, strength, intangibility, invisibility, etc.).

Xavier is not an Omega level mutant. Cable and Phoenix are both more powerful then him too.

DC Fanboys are fighting a losing battle here. Just take a look at the polls. Martian Manhunter's telepathy is probaly on par with Marvel Boy from the New Warriors. ^__^

Read the following and think again.



Polls don't mean nothing.

MM is one of the most powerful psychics in DC or Marvel. Charles doesn't have no chance with it

MM.

I've always thought that MM's telepathy was more combat-orientated (better in battle), whereas CX's telepathy was more passive and more global (more able to read minds of a large number of people).

MM has better telepathy in quality, but xaviers has a much larger range.

I agree with Eleven, even though i can't say i know a lot about MM both characters seem to be at least comparable in terms of psychic powers, however, MM might have the edge in terms of experience and abilities.

About that "nobody over the age of 12 loves the JLA", its funny how every comic book store or convention i ever went to always say that DC aims at an older audience, while Marvel, even though their trying to fix their Fisher Price image with the new Marvel Knights and MAX series, which are excellent btw, aim at a younger audience. I know very few comic book fans over the age of 21 who are huge Marvel fans, they either like both or prefer DC.

I myself am 26 and am not a fan boy of either company, im a fan of certain characters. Im glad though that Marvel started those two "more mature" series i mentioned above, through them i can revisit old favorites of mine that i just left behind gradually as i grew older.

Just because we know Manhunter is better doesn't make us fanboys. Would we be DC fanboys if we said Superman could beat Spiderman?

And polls don't mean anything. A million people who don't know anything could vote the wrong way, while only one person has enough knowledge to vote correctly.

Did EVERYONE completely ignore my argument at the beginning at the thread?

In terms of raw power, xavier has so much. MM has always been afraid to go beyond mind probes. Sure, he's powerful but were' talking about XAVIER here. The guy who pretty much demolished the marvel universe as onlaught. Think about it, this guy gets imprisoned the shadow king, contacted Lilandra millions of light years away, held a lot of people in a catatonic state within a five block radius (x-men versus avengers), and can scan multiple minds globally.

You know damn well they did, lol.

http://img25.exs.cx/img25/9850/mm4bz.gif

Thank you!

Love the cartoon!

I didn't.

Great cartoon DarkCrawler. Oh and Draco, I want that sig SOOOOO bad.

Alright. I'll admit that MM has beter range than Xavier currently, but that's because Magneto took steps to hinder Charles' ability to use his telepathy globally by screwing with the earths magnetic field. In close quarter psychic combat, one on one, Charles is unstoppable. Shadow King draws on the negative psychic energy of the entire PLANET and Charles beat him. I don't care if he had to struggle, he BEAT him. Xavier has mentally frozen and simultaneously manipulated the memories of a village of three hundred. Recently, Charles took on and even overpowered the Exemplar Bedlam, who is the avatar of the God of Mind and Madness and whose telepathy could penetrate Juggernaut's helmet. In a close confrontation Xavier can win.

Interesting

Xaiver is only limited on Earth because of Magneto messing with EM field of the planet but off-world he has pulled off stuns like this.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5897/professorx18ma.th.jpg

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3753/professorx23eo.th.jpg

He did all of this while sitting on an orbiting moon.

This will probably hurt Xaviers case more then help it...but even though Mags screwed with the Earths magnetic field Xavier still manages to break through Exodus's static around Avalon for a few seconds, he does this while the entire astral plane is being screwed up due to the fight between Exodus and Holocaust...he also does this from his office without the aid of Cerebro or any other device(Cerebro is offline)...Avalon is situated in space..


http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6788/xmenv204301rougherii2.th.jpghttp://img77.imageshack.us/img77/4255/xmenv204315rougheryr5.th.jpghttp://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1330/xmenv204320roughernx3.th.jpg

Point being he has range...just not sure if it's MM range...

BTW Isn't Cassandra Nova the Prime example of what Xavier's telepathy would be like if he doesn't hold back? She manifested her telepathy on the physical plane...beat up Gladiator and caused him to wet his pants...

My other point being I don't think Xavier would go down without a putting up a good fight...regardless of MM's heritage...

What is so odd about Manhuner, is that he can alter his brain. his actual brain, for added affects and thingys. He turned his mind into the choas of the joker, just to beat the jokers maze. If i am remembering correctly. Xavier gets all freaky with wierd minds and such. I"m sure A gleaming of this would let MM know how to beat PX. but, Prox could also make MM Think he was on fire and it would all be over. It deponds on who's will is stronger.

MM owns him

His telepathic powers >>>>>>>> Prof's powers

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
This will probably hurt Xaviers case more then help it...but even though Mags screwed with the Earths magnetic field Xavier still manages to break through Exodus's static around Avalon for a few seconds, he does this while the entire astral plane is being screwed up due to the fight between Exodus and Holocaust...he also does this from his office without the aid of Cerebro or any other device(Cerebro is offline)...Avalon is situated in space..


http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6788/xmenv204301rougherii2.th.jpghttp://img77.imageshack.us/img77/4255/xmenv204315rougheryr5.th.jpghttp://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1330/xmenv204320roughernx3.th.jpg

Point being he has range...just not sure if it's MM range...

BTW Isn't Cassandra Nova the Prime example of what Xavier's telepathy would be like if he doesn't hold back? She manifested her telepathy on the physical plane...beat up Gladiator and caused him to wet his pants...

My other point being I don't think Xavier would go down without a putting up a good fight...regardless of MM's heritage... Cassie can basically access the full spectrum of abilities the person's genome grants them. Xavier has all the abilities that Cassandra Nova showed in his genetic potential, but they are latent.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Cassie can basically access the full spectrum of abilities the person's genome grants them. Xavier has all the abilities that Cassandra Nova showed in his genetic potential, but they are latent.

Ah...that makes sense...kind like Emma's latent telekinesis...

Xavier. J'onn makes him work hard for it though.

As good as MM is, Xavier is a damn telepathic beast.

One-on-one, Xavier defeats Martian Manhunter.

Ooooh. I remember this thread.

Seriously though:

Spider-Man: Good Lord! Count Nefaria is more than 1000 miles away. Who could possibly read his mind for the deactivation codes of this nuclear bomb?

Charles Xavier: Hold on! I'll wheel myself back to the mansion and get Cerebro!

MM: 109738....

Originally posted by Draco69
Ooooh. I remember this thread.

Seriously though:

Spider-Man: Good Lord! Count Nefaria is more than 1000 miles away. Who could possibly read his mind for the deactivation codes of this nuclear bomb?

Charles Xavier: Hold on! I'll wheel myself back to the mansion and get Cerebro!

MM: 109738....

That's a bit biased...

Xavier could do it. Rather easily, too. He's done far greater.

Originally posted by Draco69
Ooooh. I remember this thread.

Seriously though:

Spider-Man: Good Lord! Count Nefaria is more than 1000 miles away. Who could possibly read his mind for the deactivation codes of this nuclear bomb?

Charles Xavier: Hold on! I'll wheel myself back to the mansion and get Cerebro!

MM: 109738....

Your confusing range with power.

Think about with only half his power mental powers, Xaiver has enter the sub-atomic doorway to the Mirco-verse.

Originally posted by HandOfFate
Your confusing range with power.

Think about with only half his power mental powers, Xaiver has enter the sub-atomic doorway to the Mirco-verse.

MM has managed to penetrate the Overmind of Heaven. A feat only the Great Evil Beast has done...

Originally posted by Draco69
MM has managed to penetrate the Overmind of Heaven. A feat only the Great Evil Beast has done...
You really know how to shut someone down.

Originally posted by Draco69
MM has managed to penetrate the Overmind of Heaven. A feat only the Great Evil Beast has done...

Really, what issue was that?

Originally posted by HandOfFate
Really, what issue was that?

The Zauriel limited series.

X wins

MM ftw

Originally posted by Draco69
The Zauriel limited series.

Wait, are you talking about JLA: Paradise Lost?

Professor X.

martian manhunter wins because charles has no powers

Prof. X ftw!

Originally posted by hawkwind
martian manhunter wins because charles has no powers what?

from what little others have told me about MM he's more in control of his full scope of power than xavier but if the fight is an intense one and the mental blocks xavier has breaks down his telepathic power is pretty much unmatched

Anyway the way I've always seen it

X > MM in terms of offensive power
MM > X in terms of support power

You need someone turned into a vegetable you go to X, you need a mindlink or some such go to Manhunter.

To put it in retrospect


who did more damage


Onslaught or Fernus?

Yeah, I'm going to be a fanboy and say Prof. X wins. Mostly because, if they fought, I'd like to see X win. Not pwn him, but win.

How can John Jonzz defeat someone who was half of Onslaught?

Xavier has channeled the thoughts of an entire world. An alien world no less as all can see from the scans a few pages before. Xavier also managed to defeat and drive away Ego during 'Maximum Security,' with some assistance from a young Skrull mutant. The exact circumstances elude me, but he was able to manipulate the young Skrull's mind through subtle shape-shifting of his brain to act as his conduit and then he literally fried Ego's synapses. Xavier has also defeated artificial intelligence with his mind, which was something I didn't think possible. Among other things, in 'X-Men: Genesis,' Xavier was able to train a group of X-Men for months, in the space of several hours. He's also shown the ability to transfer his consciousness to other bodies. His original body died and he transferred to a clone.

Finally, the guy has turned out ot be a grade-A a$$hole. I'm not talking about Onslaught. He had an original X-Men team go in to Krakoa who died. One of them was the third Summers brother and he covered it all up from his students. He also learned that the Danger Room had achieved sentience and wondered what was going on, but decided he needed his students trained rather than free the consciousness which lay within and kept it trapped for years. He's utterly ruthless in my honest opinion. Considering he has no problem with mass telepathy, or problems with alien minds (shapeshifters even), or even artificial intelligence minds... I think Xavier would give Martian Manhunter serious problems. If you add in the existence of the Astral Plane into the battlefield, I don't see him losing. The lowdown: he's got planetary scale telepathy, he's defeated cosmic beings and he's defeated artificial intelligence.

Martian Manhunter as far as I know still has an aversion to fire in an abstract way. While physically he's alright, I believe in the Fernus stoyline, he is still weak to psychic fire or somewhat. This was out of the words of MM himself. Sounds like a vulnerability to me. He's also been shown to have limits. I think it was Despero whom he was able to trap in a wish-fulfillment scenario, but he exhausted this ability by using it only once. I don't believe there is an exact equivalent of the Astral Plane in DC, but there ought to be a similar analogue, where mind > substance. If he can access and tap into it personally, then I believe he has a shot. Otherwise, I say Xavier finds this psychic fire weakness and takes him out, with or without the assistance of the Astral Plane.

He's not vulnerable to psychic fire. He's vulnerable to "flames" of passion. If a house is burning and MM is standing right in the middle of it. He suffers no pain. However if a family is trapped in the burning home, he'll suffer psychic backlash.

Unless Xavier is willing to torch is own mansion full of students...

MM also channeled the thoughts of the entire world. On several different occasions. Xavier used every last ounce of psychic strength he had to do this feat. MM? He beared no strain whatsoever.

MM has made contact with every single being in the DC universe and coalesced their psychic energy to serve as a shield against Solaris. EVERY single being.

He also managed to breach the Overmind of Heaven a feat that was only reproduced by the Great Evil Beast alone. He literally breached the consciousness of GOD.

He also managed to make psychic contact with the Source and fuel the psychic energy of all those who have passed and returned to the source to defeat his brother Malfic and to pacify Darkseid.

He also clearly has no strain scanning the world and reading the thoughts every being simultaneously daily with no repreccussions whatsoever. Xavier? He continually needs Cerbero to accomplish such a feat.

MM also possesses nearly ten thousand years of psychic combat experience from a race of beings who lived and breathed telepathy as it were first-nature. Xavier? He had to learn by himself. MM? He absorbed the psychic knowledge of EVERY Martian (except the current ones that are still alive...) and added THEIR power to his. His race counted in the MILLIONS. He possesses the psychic raw energy of MILLIONS of Green Martians.

He also defeated the Martian God H'rommer. H'rommer is considered by the GLC corps to be the most powerful psychic being alive. A being who can alter the Astral Plane to his will as if he were God.

Artificial intelligence if of no matter to MM. He's mentally controlled the likes of the Metal Men or psychically KOed Red Tornado.

Mass telepathy? Try mass telepathy against hundreds of White Martians who are incredibly skilled TPs themselves. He mindwiped them all.

Cosmic beings. MM has psychically battled God's Wrath....

Xavier is simply outclassed.

He's facing an opponent with FAR more experience, FAR more psychic resouivers (he has his ENTIRE races' psychic energies to call!), FAR more versality, and quite simply is better than Xavier in everyway.

It's like a pretensious unlearned martial artist who is talented but self-taught against a master who has been trained since birth by the best of the best.

Originally posted by Draco69
He's not vulnerable to psychic fire. He's vulnerable to "flames" of passion. If a house is burning and MM is standing right in the middle of it. He suffers no pain. However if a family is trapped in the burning home, he'll suffer psychic backlash.

Unless Xavier is willing to torch is own mansion full of students...

MM also channeled the thoughts of the entire world. On several different occasions. Xavier used every last ounce of psychic strength he had to do this feat. MM? He beared no strain whatsoever.

MM has made contact with every single being in the DC universe and coalesced their psychic energy to serve as a shield against Solaris. EVERY single being.

He also managed to breach the Overmind of Heaven a feat that was only reproduced by the Great Evil Beast alone. He literally breached the consciousness of GOD.

He also managed to make psychic contact with the Source and fuel the psychic energy of all those who have passed and returned to the source to defeat his brother Malfic and to pacify Darkseid.

He also clearly has no strain scanning the world and reading the thoughts every being simultaneously daily with no repreccussions whatsoever. Xavier? He continually needs Cerbero to accomplish such a feat.

MM also possesses nearly ten thousand years of psychic combat experience from a race of beings who lived and breathed telepathy as it were first-nature. Xavier? He had to learn by himself. MM? He absorbed the psychic knowledge of EVERY Martian (except the current ones that are still alive...) and added THEIR power to his. His race counted in the MILLIONS. He possesses the psychic raw energy of MILLIONS of Green Martians.

He also defeated the Martian God H'rommer. H'rommer is considered by the GLC corps to be the most powerful psychic being alive. A being who can alter the Astral Plane to his will as if he were God.

Artificial intelligence if of no matter to MM. He's mentally controlled the likes of the Metal Men or psychically KOed Red Tornado.

Mass telepathy? Try mass telepathy against hundreds of White Martians who are incredibly skilled TPs themselves. He mindwiped them all.

Cosmic beings. MM has psychically battled God's Wrath....

Xavier is simply outclassed.

He's facing an opponent with FAR more experience, FAR more psychic resouivers (he has his ENTIRE races' psychic energies to call!), FAR more versality, and quite simply is better than Xavier in everyway.

It's like a pretensious unlearned martial artist who is talented but self-taught against a master who has been trained since birth by the best of the best.

shock

If even half of that is true Xavier is screwed. But I give him 1/10 for being played by PatrickStewart.

I would think it obvious. I mean:

MM: Superman. I've just mentally scanned the entire Earth and several of our neighboring galaxies. Despero is nowhere to be found.

Xavier: I cannot find Pyro and the Brotherhood in Scotland. They must be elsewhere. Storm, take me to the Blackbird and I will use Cerbero to find them.

Originally posted by Draco69
I would think it obvious. I mean:

MM: Superman. I've just mentally scanned the entire Earth and several of our neighboring galaxies. Despero is nowhere to be found.

Xavier: I cannot find Pyro and the Brotherhood in Scotland. They must be elsewhere. Storm, take me to the Blackbird and I will use Cerbero to find them.



I've got some interesting information that you should see, Draco. Magneto used his powers to subtly manipulate the magnetic field to prevent all long-range telepathy on Earth.

http://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=classicxmen1911tg4.jpg

Originally posted by batdude123
I've got some interesting information that you should see, Draco. Magneto used his powers to subtly manipulate the magnetic field to prevent all long-range telepathy on Earth.

http://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=classicxmen1911tg4.jpg

A valid point old friend,however it was recently made light how Jonn has been constantly dampening the Keys own telepathic abilities for several years,this includes how he read every mind on the planet,owned spectre,owned Joker and several other Telepathic feats.

The Metal Men have souls if I'm not mistaken and are not mere robots. The Red Tornado is an Air Elemental housed in an android. They are not pure AI robots like Danger was. I believe there is a strong distinction. And while MM's ability to call upon his entire race's telepathic powers is impressive (could you describe it a bit more please? for now, I'll take it at face value)... Xavier's got the astral plane. I think everybody knows about the astral plane.

But everything Draco has posted is certainly impressive. I would like to know the context of his impressive challenge against God's own mind barriers and God's Wrath and his victory over the supposed most powerful psychic being in the universe, H'rommer. That is certainly impressive if he did it personally. Perhaps you might share some scans or someone else could to fill in some context?

Of course, it is curious then how it is that J'onn couldn't undo Ted Kord's mental manipulations of Superman in 'Sacrifice.' J'onn didn't even know what Ted Kord was doing the whole time during Justice League International. It's also curious that he was plainly defeated by Despero in 'Crisis of Conscience,' WHILE Aquaman was helping him. I suppose than, that Despero would beat H'rommer quite handily. Then again... it's also quite curious how Despero seemed to struggle to take over Superman's mind.

So... then that means Ted Kord > Superman > Despero > MM > H'rommer > supposedly over every other psychic being in DC.

That doesn't really make sense to me. Unless it is, that MM's supposed victories over H'rommer and challenges against the mind and Wrath of God were extenuated or have some type of context you're not telling me. I'd like to learn more and a rare thank you to batdude123 for pointing out the psychic interference that Magneto set in place on Earth. I had personally forgotten that.

MM was telepathically in contact with Despero for two issues,and when he and Aquaman combined powers Despero himself said how they were weaker than normal due to absorbing the negative emotions.

Also Despero wasn't struggling that hard.It took him one panel to own Black Canary and he needed both GL and Hawkman to be distracted.Superman was on the brink of failing every time we saw him and Despero,but it was only one panel each time and he was interruptted every attempt,no real resistance feat on Supermans side i'm afraid.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
MM was telepathically in contact with Despero for two issues,and when he and Aquaman combined powers Despero himself said how they were weaker than normal due to absorbing the negative emotions.

Also Despero wasn't struggling that hard.It took him one panel to own Black Canary and he needed both GL and Hawkman to be distracted.Superman was on the brink of failing every time we saw him and Despero,but it was only one panel each time and he was interruptted every attempt,no real resistance feat on Supermans side i'm afraid. I own 'Crisis of Conscience,' and I do not remember Despero mentioning that either Aquaman OR Martian Manhunter were telepathically weaker because of "absorbing negative emotions." I do remember Despero mentioning that he saw the Justice League weaker emotionally or something to that effect... and that greatly satisfied him.

And the Superman resistance feat is not the main point of mentioning Despero. Because in the end, you see a metahuman like Maxwell Lord hide his actions from Martian Manhunter for all the years they were together in the Justice League International. J'onn was also unable to safely undo the mental manipulations that Maxwell Lord had used on Superman. So then... even taking Superman out of the scale I posted earlier, which isn't something I turly believed and merely posited for illustration's sake: Maxwell Lord and/or Despero > Martian Manhunter > H'rommer > supposedly over all other psychic beings in universe according to Draco... err GL Corps...

And yes, I know I switched Ted Kord's and Maxwell Lord's name in my original post. How interesting that comparison would have been. Again, these posts are directed mainly towards Draco who is comfortable shooting from the hip with feats galore, etc. However, considering just the events from 'Sacrifice' and 'Crisis of Conscience,' I'm going to need some context or clarification to accept all of Draco's assertions. Goodness... I don't even need to to talk about other psychic foes J'onn has had challenges with, like Hector Hammond, Dr. Psycho and Gorilla Grodd. I think Maxwell Lord and Despero are more recent and everybody has read the instances I've listed.

EDIT: Perhaps nvrbeenwthgrl might have something to say with your insinuations that J'onn might have beaten Despero mentally one-on-one when he's already exhausted his wish-fulfillment loop ability.

prof x would mind wipe jj

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I own 'Crisis of Conscience,' and I do not remember Despero mentioning that either Aquaman OR Martian Manhunter were telepathically weaker because of "absorbing negative emotions." I do remember Despero mentioning that he saw the Justice League weaker emotionally or something to that effect... and that greatly satisfied him.

And the Superman resistance feat is not the main point of mentioning Despero. Because in the end, you see a metahuman like Maxwell Lord hide his actions from Martian Manhunter for all the years they were together in the Justice League International. J'onn was also unable to safely undo the mental manipulations that Maxwell Lord had used on Superman. So then... even taking Superman out of the scale I posted earlier, which isn't something I turly believed and merely posited for illustration's sake: Maxwell Lord and/or Despero > Martian Manhunter > H'rommer > supposedly over all other psychic beings in universe according to Draco... err GL Corps...

And yes, I know I switched Ted Kord's and Maxwell Lord's name in my original post. How interesting that comparison would have been. Again, these posts are directed mainly towards Draco who is comfortable shooting from the hip with feats galore, etc. However, considering just the events from 'Sacrifice' and 'Crisis of Conscience,' I'm going to need some context or clarification to accept all of Draco's assertions. Goodness... I don't even need to to talk about other psychic foes J'onn has had challenges with, like Hector Hammond, Dr. Psycho and Gorilla Grodd. I think Maxwell Lord and Despero are more recent and everybody has read the instances I've listed.

EDIT: Perhaps nvrbeenwthgrl might have something to say with your insinuations that J'onn might have beaten Despero mentally one-on-one when he's already exhausted his wish-fulfillment loop ability.

I don't think Jonn would take Despero 1 on 1,i never said that in my post at all......


Also Jonn never detected Maxwell lords intentions throughout the years because as he has said he never would enter a mind without permission,and as he would never have a reason to look he wouldn't have something to find.

Considering Jonns higher showings against his lower one's,does it really come as a surprise that Jonn would have trouble with Telepaths like that?It's basically a Flash comic,if the hero ever went all out the comic would be two panels.

I own crisis of conscious too and Despero says In the last issue "the negative emotions have left there minds fractured and vulnerable"

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I don't think Jonn would take Despero 1 on 1,i never said that in my post at all......


Also Jonn never detected Maxwell lords intentions throughout the years because as he has said he never would enter a mind without permission,and as he would never have a reason to look he wouldn't have something to find.

Considering Jonns higher showings against his lower one's,does it really come as a surprise that Jonn would have trouble with Telepaths like that?It's basically a Flash comic,if the hero ever went all out the comic would be two panels.

I own crisis of conscious too and Despero says In the last issue "the negative emotions have left there minds fractured and vulnerable" So then, you agree that Despero could plainly beat Martian Manhunter. Do you then, have a problem with hypothesizing that Despero would have an easier time penetrating the Overmind, or battling theWrath of God or defeating H'rommer? The whole point of the question is Draco's continued insistence that Martian Manhunter is truly one of the great telepathic minds in the DC universe entire. Considering his average bouts with Dr. Psycho, Gorilla Grodd and Hector Hammond... I find the high-end feats posted a bit hard to swallow. Especially without context. Your thoughts?

Martian Manhunter's respect for the sanctity of the mind is a noble attribute. But if he fails to see the scale of mental manipulation that Maxwell Lord affected upon the Justice League International, he's either gullible or blind. In any case, he felt helpless with Superman's mind tampering. If I am also not mistaken, he could not track down Maxwell Lord after the Justice League discovered he was responsible. These are three distinct and convincing reasons why Maxwell Lord is plainly above Martian Manhunter. Again, the question is posed... could Maxwell Lord penetrate the Overmind, defeat H'rommer, etc more easily then J'onn?

Contrasting higher showings and lower showings can be inappropriate in certain situations. But when you have the strength of one mind against another's, the contrast serves to illustrate inconsistency, scope and perhaps loopholes and plot devices that haven't been fully divulged yet. These so-called low showings against Despero and Maxwell Lord's powers are hardly low showings. But they were very recent and they leave nothing to the imagination. There are no plot devices and they are not tenuous in the least. I don't believe J'onn to be a 3rd rate telepath. That is not the intention of my repeated inquiries. I believe he's 1st class... but in a class of his own??? I'd like to know more before I accept that.

Since J'onn has had troubles with the array of DC criminal telepaths, so no... such showings are not surprising. But don't expect me to ignore them either, ESPECIALLY when they are more recent and leave nothing to circumstance.

And with regards to Despero's last statement, that is much closer to my take of Despero's statement than yours. My interpretation is that Despero was referring to the entire League and how easy it was to turn them against each other, by amplifying and preying on the aggression and resentment the League felt towards each other already. However, I disagree with your interpretation that when fighting J'onn and Aquaman, he stated they were weaker because they "absorbed negative emotions." I disagree that he was referring to J'onn and Aquaman specifically when they assaulted him or that statement being made during their fight at all. It came after. This mistake on your part is plain to see, since the 2v1 fight came before the last issue. Maybe you're trying to say something else?

Originally posted by Draco69
He's not vulnerable to psychic fire. He's vulnerable to "flames" of passion. If a house is burning and MM is standing right in the middle of it. He suffers no pain. However if a family is trapped in the burning home, he'll suffer psychic backlash.

Unless Xavier is willing to torch is own mansion full of students...

MM also channeled the thoughts of the entire world. On several different occasions. Xavier used every last ounce of psychic strength he had to do this feat. MM? He beared no strain whatsoever.

MM has made contact with every single being in the DC universe and coalesced their psychic energy to serve as a shield against Solaris. EVERY single being.

He also managed to breach the Overmind of Heaven a feat that was only reproduced by the Great Evil Beast alone. He literally breached the consciousness of GOD.

He also managed to make psychic contact with the Source and fuel the psychic energy of all those who have passed and returned to the source to defeat his brother Malfic and to pacify Darkseid.

He also clearly has no strain scanning the world and reading the thoughts every being simultaneously daily with no repreccussions whatsoever. Xavier? He continually needs Cerbero to accomplish such a feat.

MM also possesses nearly ten thousand years of psychic combat experience from a race of beings who lived and breathed telepathy as it were first-nature. Xavier? He had to learn by himself. MM? He absorbed the psychic knowledge of EVERY Martian (except the current ones that are still alive...) and added THEIR power to his. His race counted in the MILLIONS. He possesses the psychic raw energy of MILLIONS of Green Martians.

He also defeated the Martian God H'rommer. H'rommer is considered by the GLC corps to be the most powerful psychic being alive. A being who can alter the Astral Plane to his will as if he were God.

Artificial intelligence if of no matter to MM. He's mentally controlled the likes of the Metal Men or psychically KOed Red Tornado.

Mass telepathy? Try mass telepathy against hundreds of White Martians who are incredibly skilled TPs themselves. He mindwiped them all.

Cosmic beings. MM has psychically battled God's Wrath....

Xavier is simply outclassed.

He's facing an opponent with FAR more experience, FAR more psychic resouivers (he has his ENTIRE races' psychic energies to call!), FAR more versality, and quite simply is better than Xavier in everyway.

It's like a pretensious unlearned martial artist who is talented but self-taught against a master who has been trained since birth by the best of the best.
This and when he was Fernus he was mass manipulating citizens to kill the heroes relatives and associates. Also he was manipulating hundreds if not thousands of prisoners and world leaders. Then as Martian Manhunter he was scanning the globe and only failed because Fernus's consciousness deep within him. Oh and considering that the whole thing with Superman being controlled was crap. It had him hitting Flash and easily breaking GL constructs and the entire JLA was jobbing like idiots. MM jobs alot. He's the guy used to make others good. Just by using one or two instances you can't say all that. Xavier was mindraped by Apoc who isn't known for his telepathy. So is Xavier a weaker telepath. and considering the fact that X has mostly always needed the Cerebro to do mass-telepathy i'd say that mostly its Xavier that has overall weaker showings.

whose stronger using telepathic ? white queen or lilandra ?

Originally posted by Superherovandal
This and when he was Fernus he was mass manipulating citizens to kill the heroes relatives and associates. Also he was manipulating hundreds if not thousands of prisoners and world leaders. Then as Martian Manhunter he was scanning the globe and only failed because Fernus's consciousness deep within him. Oh and considering that the whole thing with Superman being controlled was crap. It had him hitting Flash and easily breaking GL constructs and the entire JLA was jobbing like idiots. MM jobs alot. He's the guy used to make others good. Just by using one or two instances you can't say all that. Xavier was mindraped by Apoc who isn't known for his telepathy. So is Xavier a weaker telepath. and considering the fact that X has mostly always needed the Cerebro to do mass-telepathy i'd say that mostly its Xavier that has overall weaker showings. Considering that some of you are pumping up Martian Manhunter as not a 1st class telepath, but in a class of his own, capable of taking on telepathic threats and obstacles of the highest order, I can rightly insist that you address the most recent instances. These are not "low-end eye-brow raising" weak showings. Despero and Maxwell Lord being more powerful is not a SMvFL instance. It's mental prowess vs mental prowess. He was clearly beaten and it made sense. That leads me to believe you're not providing me appropriate context with which to judge his high-showings.

And don't mention Fernus anymore. I'm not mentioning Cassandra Nova or Onslaught, both of whose powers were derived from Xavier's gene sequence and spirit respectively and unleashed in an evil form. Make a "Fernus vs. Onslaught" thread if you like.

Considering I've stated that Xavier would give Manhunter problems, especially if he has access to the Astral Plane and not insinuated that Xavier pwnz J'onn, I'm not sure why you're arguing against it with me. Finally, I believe the distinction with the mass telepathy and Cerebro and Magneto's interference has been sufficiently explained. And for the last time: I'm not using J'onn's low-end feats! To do that would be to bring out Gorilla Grodd, Hector Hammond and Dr. Psycho. So stop getting your feathers ruffled. If I wanted to be pissy about it, you have no idea how far I could reach.
Originally posted by spidey-dude
whose stronger using telepathic ? white queen or lilandra ? I'd say White Queen. She was instrumental in defeating Cassandra Nova at the height of her power. Although Cassandra Nova got back at her from beyond the grave.

any who voted for prof x should know that APOC mindraped prof X....mean APOC can take MM out with tp

Originally posted by Superherovandal
the fact that X has mostly always needed the Cerebro to do mass-telepathy i'd say that mostly its Xavier that has overall weaker showings.

Well that's not true, seeing that he was able to mind-link with 8 billion skrulls without Cerebro, while sitting on a orbiting moon in X-Men #98.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Considering that some of you are pumping up Martian Manhunter as not a 1st class telepath, but in a class of his own, capable of taking on telepathic threats and obstacles of the highest order, I can rightly insist that you address the most recent instances. These are not "low-end eye-brow raising" weak showings. Despero and Maxwell Lord being more powerful is not a SMvFL instance. It's mental prowess vs mental prowess. He was clearly beaten and it made sense. That leads me to believe you're not providing me appropriate context with which to judge his high-showings.

And don't mention Fernus anymore. I'm not mentioning Cassandra Nova or Onslaught, both of whose powers were derived from Xavier's gene sequence and spirit respectively and unleashed in an evil form. Make a "Fernus vs. Onslaught" thread if you like.

Considering I've stated that Xavier would give Manhunter problems, especially if he has access to the Astral Plane and not insinuated that Xavier pwnz J'onn, I'm not sure why you're arguing against it with me. Finally, I believe the distinction with the mass telepathy and Cerebro and Magneto's interference has been sufficiently explained. And for the last time: I'm not using J'onn's low-end feats! To do that would be to bring out Gorilla Grodd, Hector Hammond and Dr. Psycho. So stop getting your feathers ruffled. If I wanted to be pissy about it, you have no idea how far I could reach.
I'd say White Queen. She was instrumental in defeating Cassandra Nova at the height of her power. Although Cassandra Nova got back at her from beyond the grave.

You THink it's a low end feat to be beaten by Gorrilla grodd, hammond or dr. psycho? THey are some of the best offensive TP users in comics. And they have gotten some serious boost in power ala Neron and most recently Dr. Psycho got another boost from the Goddess Circe.

Martian Manhunter is the telepath Xaviers wishes to be when he grows up.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You THink it's a low end feat to be beaten by Gorrilla grodd, hammond or dr. psycho? THey are some of the best offensive TP users in comics. And they have gotten some serious boost in power ala Neron and most recently Dr. Psycho got another boost from the Goddess Circe. Excellent. I've been waiting for this. There are some among you that understand exactly what nvrbeenwthgrl has just said. They are some of the best tp users. They can give J'onn a run for his money on any day of the week. Then there are also telepaths who downright beat J'onn. Despero and Maxwell Lord among those. Except... what some posters here would have us believe... is that J'onn is in a class all by himself. They ignore his normal showings. Not low-end. Not high-end. His normal, unquestioned, consistent and plausible showings.

And this is the great bane of some KMC threads. In a hotly contested debate, one side shoots out the high-end showings with extenuated circumstances. The other side tries to shoot em down with low-end showings which are laughable. What does everybody ignore? The normal and consistent showings. The showings that make the character who he is. The normal history you have in mind when you think about a character. Whether you agree with this or not, this is the focus of my continued posts.

Because it is happening right here, right now. J'onn is not in a class of his own. But that is what several people are trying to lead the less knowledgeable to believe. He is vulnerable and he has been overpowered. He's confronted obstacles he could not overcome and he has been oblivious to mental manipulation on the largest scale. And these defeats have not come at the hands of cosmos-scale entities. They've come at the hand of the likes of Despero, Maxwell Lord, Dr Psycho, Gorilla Grodd and Hector Hammond. The logical thing to ask now is... is Xavier comparable at all to them? How you answer that question is entirely your opinion. But to ignore the question and the analysis is irresponsible debating.

EDIT: It was not my intent to trap you, nvrbeenwthgrl. But it was my full intention to get a DC-knowledgable poster to point out what I've been saying the whole time: Losses to Despero and Maxwell Lord are not low-end showings... which some people were characterizing them as. I was trying to show J'onn's normal and unextenuated showings and have everyone reflect more on that than obsess over high-end showings with no context. But they weren't hearing it. I needed someone like you to highlight the point I've been trying to make the entire time.

Maxwell Lord isn't better than MM. He's a low-end telepath. It took him years to manipulate Supes. MM has on multiple occasions easily controlled Supes. That alone shows his superiority to Lord. and being less than Despero and Hammond is nothing to show weakness. Hammond has manipulated many planets at once with ease. MM is normally shown as a very high-end telepath. He's shown to have high skills. Yes he has telepaths in his range or better but to say he isn't very high telepathically would be stupid. The whole Sacrifice storyline was a Supes wankfest and like i've said before Max took years to control Supes whilst MM has consistently shown the ability to easily control Supes. That shows his superiority to MM. MM has jobbed sometimes in order to make that story last longer or be longer. That storyline was one such occasion.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
Maxwell Lord isn't better than MM. He's a low-end telepath. It took him years to manipulate Supes. MM has on multiple occasions easily controlled Supes. That alone shows his superiority to Lord. and being less than Despero and Hammond is nothing to show weakness. Hammond has manipulated many planets at once with ease. MM is normally shown as a very high-end telepath. He's shown to have high skills. Yes he has telepaths in his range or better but to say he isn't very high telepathically would be stupid. The whole Sacrifice storyline was a Supes wankfest and like i've said before Max took years to control Supes whilst MM has consistently shown the ability to easily control Supes. That shows his superiority to MM. MM has jobbed sometimes in order to make that story last longer or be longer. That storyline was one such occasion. It wasn't just J'onn's inability to undo or even in the most minute way help Superman's mind that makes Maxwell Lord superior. It is also J'onn's complete obliviousness to Maxwell Lord's mental tampering with the entire Justice League International during their years together. It is also J'onns inability to find Maxwell Lord telepathically. That's three distinct reasons. And your reliance on, "Well J'onn jobbed, so it doesn't count." is the second oldest excuse in the KMC Handbook. This didn't just happen in some inconsequential storyline, it happened in one of the most important storylines that would define the DCU from there on in. You want to ignore 'Prelude to Infinite Crisis,' 'Sacrifice,' 'The Omac Project' and ultimately a major part of 'Infinite Crisis' itself because you think it's jobbing and/or PIS? That is, ultimately your opinion. You know what it is not? It is not good debating.

EDIT: Do you see this guys? Do you see it, nvrbeenwthagrl? I have to defend the veracity of Maxwell Lord's telepathy because someone is willing to set it aside as a low showing because they think it is jobbing. That's an argument a f*cking Marvel fanboy would make. This is EXACTLY what I'm arguing against. And apparently, I'm on the other side! This is coming from an apparent DC fan! It is a weak attempt to cast aside J'onn J'onzz, the character... and try to showcase the "ub3r-class-all-his-own" Martian "OMGWTFBBQ" Manhunter.

bump

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Martian Manhunter is the telepath Xaviers wishes to be when he grows up.

If Magneto hadn't messed him up, Xavier would've been superior.

Bump.

Mainly for WWH v. MMH giggles. There was a fair amount of off-topic debate in the WWH v. MMH debate purely on WWH's telepathic defenses. And I still saw a majority of people considering J'onn to be a far superior telepath to Xavier. It appeared that many people thought J'onn outclassed Xavier. I simply don't see that to be true. So let's revisit!

Split 5/10 between the two in a purely telepathic battle.

Xavier has shown that he is a beast on the Astral Plane, if he pulled J'onn there, and fought with the intention to kill I see him defeating MM every time.

The professor gets all googly at alien minds. MM turns his brain into the joker's like he did before and ****s Xavier good.

MM pretty handily IMO.

Martian Manhunter.

Would there be any point to me actually typing his name,or can you all guess? haermm

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Would there be any point to me actually typing his name,or can you all guess? haermm Trickster_Priest?

Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
Trickster_Priest?

I refuse to be insulted by the man with the omni-dong sig.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I refuse to be insulted by the man with the omni-dong sig. But I can still insult you right? 313

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
But I can still insult you right? 313

A man with Kakashi in his sig could violate me for all i care.

Meh. Still got people thinking J'onn is a far superior telepath then Xavier. Still wondering why. Not only does Professor X have less low feats, I still think Profexxor X has more high-end feats in his belt then Manhunter. Xavier's got more planetwide telepathy feats, more galaxy spanning telepathy feats and more successful battles/encounters with abstract level feats. That and he can affect machines and AI. Plus he's been upgraded to an unknown degree since his merger with the M'Kraan crystal. Guess I'll have to point people to his respect thread to help sway popular opinion. First page and a half is about Ult. Xavier, but after a page and a half or so, you'll get the good stuff:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=418908&pagenumber=2

I'm runnin' with the Old Chuck.

John has read the mind of every person in the world, unlike Xavier he doesn't need Cerebro. That alone puts him above Xavier. Not to mention he's taken on white martians, who also happen to have great telepathy.

Xavier doesn't need cerebro.

Originally posted by Draco69
MM also channeled the thoughts of the entire world. On several different occasions. Xavier used every last ounce of psychic strength he had to do this feat. MM? He beared no strain whatsoever.

MM has made contact with every single being in the DC universe and coalesced their psychic energy to serve as a shield against Solaris. EVERY single being.

He also managed to breach the Overmind of Heaven a feat that was only reproduced by the Great Evil Beast alone. He literally breached the consciousness of GOD.

He also managed to make psychic contact with the Source and fuel the psychic energy of all those who have passed and returned to the source to defeat his brother Malfic and to pacify Darkseid.

He also clearly has no strain scanning the world and reading the thoughts every being simultaneously daily with no repreccussions whatsoever. Xavier? He continually needs Cerbero to accomplish such a feat.

MM also possesses nearly ten thousand years of psychic combat experience from a race of beings who lived and breathed telepathy as it were first-nature. Xavier? He had to learn by himself. MM? He absorbed the psychic knowledge of EVERY Martian (except the current ones that are still alive...) and added THEIR power to his. His race counted in the MILLIONS. He possesses the psychic raw energy of MILLIONS of Green Martians.

He also defeated the Martian God H'rommer. H'rommer is considered by the GLC corps to be the most powerful psychic being alive. A being who can alter the Astral Plane to his will as if he were God.

Artificial intelligence if of no matter to MM. He's mentally controlled the likes of the Metal Men or psychically KOed Red Tornado.

Mass telepathy? Try mass telepathy against hundreds of White Martians who are incredibly skilled TPs themselves. He mindwiped them all.

Cosmic beings. MM has psychically battled God's Wrath....

Xavier is simply outclassed.

He's facing an opponent with FAR more experience, FAR more psychic resouivers (he has his ENTIRE races' psychic energies to call!), FAR more versality, and quite simply is better than Xavier in everyway.

It's like a pretensious unlearned martial artist who is talented but self-taught against a master who has been trained since birth by the best of the best.

Scans?

Here's a little secret for you; Martian Manhunter was a second (maybe third) tier character from inception onward. Nothing wrong w/ this, some of my favorite char. are as well, but the thing is, sometimes a company, in an attempt to breath life into a second-shelfer, will play around with them, alter them, amp their power, change their histories, turn them from good to bad (and back again)... all in order to keep them relevant. You can usually spot these cases as they happen mostly to characters who cannot hold- or never even had- their own series.
Up until fairly recently (recently in the long history of the character), MM was a fairly powerful character, but nowhere near as powerful as Superman, no where near as powerful a telepath as Xavier. But DC tinkered and amped him up, and up, and up.
And up.
And I don't buy it. If tomorrow, a comic book had Green Arrow bulseyeing a molecule from a mile away, I wouldn't buy that either. I would chalk that up to what it is; lazy (if talented) writers thinking "what can I do with this character now? Hey, I know- I'll increase his power!" My view of MM is much closer to the classic, core, character; powerful, not god-like. And not above Xavier as a telepath.

People,Jonn's FAR older then 10,000.

Hell,Take apocalypses age,times it by say....oh,500,and i doubt your halfway there.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Meh. Still got people thinking J'onn is a far superior telepath then Xavier. Still wondering why. Not only does Professor X have less low feats, I still think Profexxor X has more high-end feats in his belt then Manhunter. Xavier's got more planetwide telepathy feats, more galaxy spanning telepathy feats and more successful battles/encounters with abstract level feats. That and he can affect machines and AI. Plus he's been upgraded to an unknown degree since his merger with the M'Kraan crystal. Guess I'll have to point people to his respect thread to help sway popular opinion. First page and a half is about Ult. Xavier, but after a page and a half or so, you'll get the good stuff:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=418908&pagenumber=2 MM is much more powerful than Chuck my friend.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
MM is much more powerful than Chuck my friend.

Proof?

Eh,Icould just be as lazy as OneDumbGo and say go to his respect thread.

But in a nutshell,Jonn wins because he is a million times more experienced,lived in a culture based around telepathy,not to mention that Xavier(even when he was Onslaught) had a ***** of a time with Alien minds...let alone an alien who's atleast an equal telepath.Jonn's stalemated Starro the conquerer before,while Aquaman was utterly stomped(not saying that Aquamans anywhere near Xavier,just showing Jonn's a cut above the Average DC telepath),Plus,Jonn was able to dominate every criminal mind on earth when he wanted to,and he was able to beat his brother in a telepathic one-on-one before,while Malefic has been able to mindrape the entire league at once.

None of that shows me he is a better telepath than Xavier.

He may win this fight, but being a superior telepath imo has yet to be seen.

even if Xavier is a stronger telepath, can he use his telepathic powers.... to draw on the void of strength to create ice cream, thus saving us all from a little boy's tears?

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2381/mm3gy0.th.jpg

I submit that he cannot. And thus, J'onn wins.

Originally posted by Mindset
None of that shows me he is a better telepath than Xavier.

He may win this fight, but being a superior telepath imo has yet to be seen.

Well,Go look at Jonn's respect thread if it matters that much to you.

I just did.

And I have before.

Well then,show me why you think Xavier is a better telepath.

I don't.

I just don't think MM is better either.

So you think their tied?

Yes

Originally posted by Mindset
Yes Fair enough.

I just give Jonn the nod because of his greater experience with it,and some of the strange(and retarded) stuff he's done with it.

Bump