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so the FF4 vs Colossus, Iceman, Nightcrawler, and Jean

LOL... what a great forum "VS these 4 xmen I chose."

Since colussus was recently updated to the 100 class strength range, and icemans is now the shiznite with the ability to freeze people from the inside out,
I really would bet those two alone could take the FF4...
And in the dude with the Havoc wolverine sig...
"The thing looks like cookie dough when he jumps from bridges"

Hmm, will think on this.

Going with F4 for now.

-AC

Whats so special about the F4 they can take on Colussus and Iceman?

Haha, what kind of nonsense is this.

Fantastic Four would take down all of the X-Men.

Sue can *probably* block Iceman's attempts to freeze others and the others could keep Colossus busy. Or melt him.

The newly revamped collusus is in the 100 class range of strength, and is almost invulnreble...

Iceman can freeze the insides of humans...

Why the Fantastic 4?

"Why the Fantastic 4?"

Well Human Torch's supernova is much much more of a heat blast than Colossus is resistant to. Thing would be able to keep him busy and then some.

As for Ice-Man, Sue would be able to protect herself and Reed while they took him out. I agree with Vic, the X-Men in general aren't gonna be enough to take out the F4 at their best.

-AC

No need to drop them from the competition, im sure Torch can heat things up... however I am also sure Iceman can cool things down.

torch would take all moisture out of the air, iceman included then melt colossus, jean would be tough but suffering from extreme heat and trying to shield herself sue could take her out with force field attacks, nightcrawler'd probably run away at this point to tell the rest of the x men......... if he didn't then it'd just be a matter of time before they got him as he can't hurt the thing or mr fantasticand can't get close to torch without burning and sue'd be invisible so he wouldnt' know where she was

Maybe your right then

*Nightcrawler teleports into X-Men war room to find them and falls to ground*

N.C: They.....they beat me up and killed Ice-Man and Colossus.

*X-Men all get their gear together and stroll to the place where the fight is*

Cyclops: Alright. Who the Hell did this?

Human Torch: We did.

*X-Men whistle in unison and slowly back-up into the Blackbird, then fly off*

-AC

lol almost exactly how i pictured it

Although I hate to say it, but that bubble field is notoriously strong that Invisible Woman uses and has proven to negate Jean's influence both telepathic and telekinetic (i.e. shown when Avengers and FF found her in the incubator and when she went offensive, none of the members, except Invisible Woman could stop her).

Human Torch should not be considered to go supernova all the time, especially with his teammates around and Iceman is far more versatile than his former incarnations, but Human Torch may still have the advantage, unless Iceman pulls up an instant cell freeze a la Legion.

I think all X-Men members enlisted could take Mr. Fantastic and I'm leaning on Colossus on the durability factor against Thing. I would like to favor the X-Men, but that pesky Invisible Woman power somewhat turns the tables.

no four x-men could be a great match up for the FF...u need at least 7. Dont even bother mentioning how someone's powers have been increased, the Torch is presently the herald of Galactus and he has invisible woman type powers...he could probably trash the entire x-men alone. Just because Colossus has class 100 strength now, doesnt mean he would beat the Thing, it only means he would stand a chance, because in the past he wouldnt. Invisible Woman is obviously going to beat any x-person you throw at her...and which x-men can physically take mister fantastic? not to mention that he would have already made a plan to neutralize any of their powers.

F4 sue and johny would make the diference

while i believe current colossus could take thing down, and iceman in his current incarnation is extremely powerful, i believe sue would be the deciding factor...

f4... but only just...

I mean you've gotta assess roles here.

X-Men: Essentially the Marvel version of Team America: World Police. They come to help and settle things on a national scale really.

Fantastic Four: When shit goes up slack ally on a universal scale, the alarms go off in the Baxter Building, they grab their gear, hop in the jet and go off to work. Bearing in mind there is only 4 and they don't have the most intimidating powers.

-AC

dude... not intimidating? seriously?

mr fantastic... one of the greatest minds in marvel and an excellent leader, and a pretty decent power...

human torch... the guy is literally a human fireball... extremely powerful...

the thing... one of marvels heavy hitters...

sue... too powerful to even begin talking about...

the reason x-men is national is due to the fact that they face other mutants... thats their m.o, they deal with hate and bigotry on a daily basis...

colossus... currently extremely strong and more durable than thing imo...

iceman... powers potentially limitless, just like torch...

jean... extremely powerful psychic and telekinetic, but no sue...

nightcrawler... um... oh f*ck it...

I like the FF as much as the X-men. But that statement was kinda farfetched Imo. The X-men have dealt with the Shi-ar Imperial guard and have battled the Brood on several ocasions. And if I remember right recently the FF came to the X-men for help in the crossover comic that is out now. But as far as the fight goes It would a sure brawl and I dont think I can pick a winner. The only real advantage the FF has is Reed. And maybe thats enough.

"I like the FF as much as the X-men. But that statement was kinda farfetched Imo. The X-men have dealt with the Shi-ar Imperial guard and have battled the Brood on several ocasions. And if I remember right recently the FF came to the X-men for help in the crossover comic that is out now. But as far as the fight goes It would a sure brawl and I dont think I can pick a winner. The only real advantage the FF has is Reed. And maybe thats enough."

Was just talking essentially.

-AC

X-men easily. Iceman alone could almost tkae them all out. Iceman can't be killed by any means the FF have. If, a BIG if, Torch were to burn all of the moisture out of the air so that Iceman was unable to reform his body, Iceman woud take the moisture out of Sue or Reed or Thing or Johny or all of them. Colossus, with his newly enhanced strength, would be able to take out Thing. Jean, umm well she basically is the Phoenix, the Phoenix is literally part of who he is, so she would beat their arses. NC is the only one who doesn't stack up...

"X-men easily. Iceman alone could almost tkae them all out. "

Ice-Man could actually take out the Fantastic Four?

-AC

I find it amusing how little respect the Fantastic Four gets. After all, all they've ever really done is take on global and galactic threats on nearly a regular basis that the likes of the X-Men or Avengers could only dream of, along with gaining the respect of most cosmic beings.

I'm still actually reeling from that "Ice-Man could take them alone" claim.

-AC

You sure Vaporman, ummm, Iceman really could?

iceman is really powerful... but this is the Fantastic Four... jeez...

Iceman is an Omeag Mutants, one perk of that being that he doesn' need a physical body. So even if Human Torch vaporized him, he would be able to find moisture from somewhere(I.E. The FF's bodies.) and reform a body. Jean is also an Omega, she IS the living embodiment of the Phoenix. This was an unfair mathup to put The FF up against this particular group of X-men...

F4 would take out the X-Men, Ice-Man and all.

Ice-Man is no match for Sue Storm.

-AC

since when does jean have phoenix capabilities in this fight?

is jean pheonix?

that a good question.orginal not..but now she is..I think Muffin Man

so the X-men

Yes, it turns out that Jean's genetic makeup makes her the phoenix! And Iceman is more than a match for Sue Storm.

Maybe if it were something more like Cyclops, Storm, Colossus, and Sunfire or something, this might be more fair, but it was just an unfair matchup to put the FF against two pretty good X-men(Nightcrawler and Colossus) and the two most powerful X-men...

Replace Nightcrawler (Gutentag mein Freund) with a more impressive X-Man, and we have a good fight.

Not really...

...Throw Nightcrawler out all together, and the outcome is going to be the same.

Jean is a cosmic force as the Phoenix. She may even be able to rival the powers of Adam Warlock. Iceman is not too far behind. Neither of them can be physically taken out, and the FF don't have the rights means to take them out. As far as I'm concerned, Colossus and Nightcrawler are irrelevant, as Phoenix and Iceman would take down the FF long before they would get into the fight...

I doubt the FF would fear these opponents in the light of the people they have taken on in the past. I would always back the Thing against Colossus, power up or not, considering he gives the Hulk trouble usually.

Lest we forget the power-up the Human Torch curretly has.

Let us remember to consider Jean's current state, you know, where she is basically a god... ...er... ...goddess. Even if we went with Johny as a herald, he is no match for Phoenix, and Iceman tips the scales that much more. There is no denying that the X-men would win.

"There is no denying that the X-men would win."

There is because it's happening. Realistically you are the underdog here.

-AC

I wouldn't. Colossus is stronger and tougher, so he should win from Thing.

Thats what I said... Colossus is like ten times stronger now.

If The Thing was already 20 times stronger than him though, doesn't matter.

-AC

Colossus was already stronger than Thing. Using the traditional Marvel tons lifting scale, Colossus, before his current beef-up, he weighed in at 90 tons. His current level is somewhere between 90 and 100 tons, it hasn't specified. Thing goes at about 85. The only reason Thing would win is because he's better and more experienced in fist brawling.

"The only reason Thing would win is because he's better and more experienced in fist brawling."

Isn't exactly gonna be ballet when they fight is it?

-AC

Youd like it to be, wouldnt you?

Why are you following me into every single thread to try and get something started? Stop being a fool. You are posting things to me of no relevance to the thread we are in, that's flaming.

-AC

Like has been asked on this forum before, where and when has it actually said that Colossus has gotten a big power boost? And don't mention the Ultimate version.

Hulk is as well, Thing doesn't seem to care.

Colossus is a jobber in my opinion.

Thing doesn't seem to care ? What ? Thing admits he's not in the same league as Hulk.

The only clear victory Thing ever had over Hulk, is when he was Spike-Thing (or what's his name), and this was when the weakest Hulk - Grey dude - incarnation underestimated Spike-Thing.

And even the stronger Spike-Thing got defeated by Grey Hulk.

"Thing doesn't seem to care ? What ? Thing admits he's not in the same league as Hulk."

I think he was implying that Colossus being stronger and tougher isn't gonna deterr him from fighting, as Hulk is tougher and stronger also and he still fought him.

-AC

Because you always have to disagree, the majority of this thread right now is saying Colussus is powerful enough to handle The Thing, you argue against it.
85 class, VS 100 class, the stronger will win, who cares about fighting style if you can lift a building, and your competitor can lift a truck...

Thats not real to there actual ability, its just an example.

BTW, The Thing mustve at one time been in league with the hulk...

and if you cant make out the pic that The Thing giving Hulk a nice big PUNCH... which sent him flying.

BTW, Colossus' boost was heavily implied in his ressurrection issues in Astonishing X-men. Which is why, in my post, I said he was somewhere 90-100. He may not have had an actual boost, hence 90, but if he did then he wouldn't have gone past 100 tons range

So Thing gave him a nice uppercut or so. So what ?

I ask you one thing : do not make me scan ALL the panels in which Thing got handled badly by Hulk...

im joking dude, but he mustve been able to do something to the hulk in the past...

I still think Collusus would kill him.

"Because you always have to disagree, the majority of this thread right now is saying Colussus is powerful enough to handle The Thing, you argue against it."

I didn't argue against it you simpleton. I merely said pointed out, when it was brought to light that Thing is a better fighter, that it wouldn't come down to technique, it would be a brawl. A brawl than Thing would win I believe. Besides, just coz everyone is saying one thing, doesn't mean I HAVE to agree if I don't believe they are correct. Hell, we've seen the reverse happen in another famous thread.

"BTW, The Thing mustve at one time been in league with the hulk...

and if you cant make out the pic that The Thing giving Hulk a nice big PUNCH... which sent him flying."

Do you spend your life searching for Anti-Hulk stuff? Don't call anyone a fan boy again and expect to be taken seriously, just advice.

-AC

Simpleton! Wee!
You are a good insulter dude... If tron/paola wasnt here im sure youd say more than that... Which is fine with me I dont really care what you call me.

Anti-Hulk stuff? Do I search for it?
Yes, I do... And as a matter of fact there are ALOT of times when the hulk has almost been destroyed even before he could get mad enough to do anything about it. All that picture shows is at SOME point ,The Thing mustve been able to duke it out with Hulk without getting his ass handed to him immediatly...
But theres no doubt in my mind that with a bit more anger The Hulk couldve stood against that punch... I dunno though it did send him flying.

Yes, I know this. I didn't at any point imply Thing would win, I said he doesn't care that he is outgunned. All you did was go on to state the implied part of my post.

Further, if he can put up a good fight against the Hulk, I don't see Colossus being anything more than his equal.

when you're as strong as the thing or colossus you can hurt almost anyone, i believe a more skillful 80 level fighter could take out a low 100 leveler the likes of cap DD and spidey knock the crap out of way more powerful (stronger anyway) guys all the time, strength alone doesn't win fights, it helps obviously but as seen in hundreds of spidey and DD fights if you don't actualy get hit it doesn't matter if the other guy is human or 50 class, everyone (almost) will tire and go down to a superior combatant, the thing is a better fighter - he can take this

"Anti-Hulk stuff? Do I search for it?
Yes, I do... And as a matter of fact there are ALOT of times when the hulk has almost been destroyed even before he could get mad enough to do anything about it. All that picture shows is at SOME point ,The Thing mustve been able to duke it out with Hulk without getting his ass handed to him immediatly...
But theres no doubt in my mind that with a bit more anger The Hulk couldve stood against that punch... I dunno though it did send him flying."

This all boils down to you and every other Juggernaut fan thinking that Anger = what is needed for Hulk to be strong.

It isn't. It's just one of the things that he can get to that point with.

If Hulk gets punch, sent flying, then gets up and wins the fight convincingly, the one punch is of no consequence. Coz in the end, it didn't help Thing.

-AC

As I have stated before Colossus was class 100 before he died. I know this cause I read it in a Marvel Encyclopedia awhile back. It clearly said at the time of his death he could lift 100 tons. As for the name of the book I dont remember but I speak the truth. All I remember is it was a huge what hardcover. 10 years ago I would have said maybe the Thing but now I would almost certainly pick Colossus.

The X-Men win. Jean Grey is on their team.

why the hell are so many people underestimating colossus, the guy is a good brawler, and i also imo (dare i say it) more intelligent than thing (in a tactical sense). hes more likely to use brains AND brawn than thing. he is stronger and probably quicker in his current form. i like thing but surely colossus has overtaken him...

I would like someone to show me where Colossus has come out on top against the caliber of enemies as the Thing...his resume is no where close. Class 100 or not, there r equally compelling arguments to say the modern Thing is portrayed as a class 100 as well.

first of all.. colossus has been dead for several years... second, thing is a more central character than colossus ever was, third, i have to go looking through my comics...

Don't believe Marvel Encyclopedia. They are wrong on many things. Colossus was class 90 before he died. Don't let their lies spread freely.

yup...

Even against the entire current x-men teams (uncanny, astonashing, new, main) the F4 would easily beat them.

thats alot of x-men...

"first of all.. colossus has been dead for several years... second, thing is a more central character than colossus ever was, third, i have to go looking through my comics..."

Colossus may be more tactical and whatever, but surely even he is smart enough to know that in a battle with Thing, the best thing he has going for him is the strength factor? Thing willingly (knowing he'll lose or not) fights The Hulk. I doubt he's gonna go into Colossus with anything but full steam, that's why I don't believe Colossus can handle him.

-AC

i agree with you saying colossus knows the best is his strength, but he is quicker than thing from whatr i've seen, and that is a definate advantage, in fact the one big thing going for colossus imo is that colossus won't underestimate the thing, i dunno if ben would do likewise...

most of the x-men are really weak.

and alot are really powerful... you could put together a decent team capable of beating the f4, but it'd be 7 or 8 of them...

I agree that Colossus is faster and not as prone to underestimation as Thing is.

However, Colossus dodges Thing and smacks him up a bit. It isn't gonna do much. Same for Colossus I guess. However when it comes down to brawling (coz it would) Thing would take him.

-AC

i know what you mean, but colossus is no slouch when it comes to fighting, i mean, the x-men train daily, including countless sessions with wolverine (an accomplished martial artist), im sure colossus has picked up something in that time...

Thing is from The Bronx though isn't he?

Hahaha.

-AC

And Thing went to army.

So did Uncle Ben!

http://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/marvel/amazspid516/19.jpghttp://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/marvel/amazspid516/20.jpg
This isn't relevant, but Uncle Ben is actually pretty cool.

i have no doubt that ben (either of em) is an excellent fighter...

but look at cyclops, he couldn't throw a punch when he started out, now he's a really good fighter (aikido and tae kwon do), its not much imo of a stretch to think colossus has done the same...

YANCY STREET GANG DON'T TAKE NO PUNK-ASS CHUMPS....REPRESENT!!

Even if Colossus is stronger and a little quicker, Thing's years of brawling
experience would win. Colossus definitely picked up skills, but
Thing's the best street brawler of all time. He's beaten Colossus quite
easily in the past. Some added strength won't suffice to close the gap.

THROW YO' SET IN THE AIR!!! YANCY STREET GANG ALL UP IN THE HIZZY!!!

It doesn't matter who would win in the fight between Colossus and Thing, because in the end, the X-men would dominate. Nightcrawler and Collossus are pretty well irrelevant here. It would take all of two seconds for Iceman to flash-freeze the FF or Phoenix to mind-wipe them. There isn't much to discuss here, the FF are simply outclassed by two omegas. Iceman and Phoenix are just plain beyond what the FF alone can handle...

Finally! Somebody was intelligent enough to point this argument out.

Pfff, I think Thing has the popularity-edge here. But if we look at the facts, Colossus has the edge.

He's stronger (not that much, but still, stronger is stronger) and more durable. He trains on an almost daily basis in the Danger Room, together with Wolverine. Brawling only will get you so far. Fine tuning your skills will get you further in my opinion.

I like'em both, and Thing is going to put up one hell of a fight (and bore us probably with "Don't mess with one of the Yancy Street guys "- like everyone of Yancy Street has two black belts...), but since Colossus is probably faster and certainly stronger and more durable, I vote for Colossus.

I think it's not far fetched to vote for him. Colossus has a Royal Flush, Thing "only" a Straight Flush. Now you can all place your bets

The Thing has far more experience fighting than Colossus (who started
training & fighting when he joined X-men). Thing's been fighting on the
streets since he was a little kid. Nothing like growing up in a gang-land
environment to sharpen one's instincts and will to survive. It's live or die.
Thing regularly fights people more powerful and NEVER gives up.
You think Colossus can go toe-to-toe with the Hulk as regularly and
impressively as The Thing does. No way. Colossus is a bit stronger now,
but Thing's got way more experience, instincts, will-power and heart.

http://www.myhogan.com/exiles/images/gladiatorscolthing.jpg

That pic is from Exiles.

Regardless of whether Thing can beat Colossus or not, the fact is the X-Men would win hands down. This rapidly turning into a Colossus vs. Thing thread.

Yeah, Phoenix or Iceman could beat FF alone.

guys guys... sue storm? seriously,. the woman got skills... but i still say x-men...

Sue Storm is the only variant that the FF4 has against the X-Men. A telepathic attack would put her down.

i know that... but jeez... show a little respect... it is the f4... and we're assuming jean has phoenix level powers...

Phoenix or not, Jean Grey's psypowers alone would topple Sue.

Sue is incredibly powerful. I know for a fact she could take on the X-Men all by herself and have a chance of winning.

"Yeah, Phoenix or Iceman could beat FF alone."

This is actually a laughable post. Ice-Man alone isn't beating any of the Fantastic Four. His best chance is against Mr.Fantastic and I still don't see him winning.

If Sue has a chance of winning alone, then her combined with Human Torch, Thing and Mr.Fantastic would quite clearly take out the X-Men. There are more offensive and defensive techniques at the disposal of F4 than that of the X-Men.

-AC

You are underestimating Iceman. Back then he was incredibly weak. But nowadays he's a force to be reckoned with. He's impossible to kill. He has god-like control over water.

Phoenix has Omega level telepathy and telekinisis. A single thought and the FF4 are her sex-slaves.

"You are underestimating Iceman. Back then he was incredibly weak. But nowadays he's a force to be reckoned with. He's impossible to kill. He has god-like control over water."

Ice-Man isn't impossible to kill. God like control over water against a man with God like power over cosmic and earth type flames? Hmm, I think I'm gonna go with Torch. Sue Storm only has to protect them in an ultra strong bubble long enough for Torch to power up a supernova inside it then when he lets it go, the X-Men are dust. Ice-Man included.

"Phoenix has Omega level telepathy and telekinisis. A single thought and the FF4 are her sex-slaves."

Why are you automatically giving her Phoenix Powers?

-AC

God like power over cosmic? We're discussing plain ol' "flame on" Jonny. Not Silver Surfer stand-in Jonny.

Phoenix does not have her Phoenix potential. Without it she still has Omega level telepathy and telekinesis.

"God like power over cosmic? We're discussing plain ol' "flame on" Jonny. Not Silver Surfer stand-in Jonny."

Why are we talking about past Human Torch and not past Ice-Man? Why is Ice-Man allowed his current "God-Like" powers yet Torch has to remain standard? Even so, regular Torch has enough power to melt Colossus level organic metal, Ice-Man isn't gonna be a problem for him.

Why are you still referring to Phoenix? Jean Grey is the one who we're all refering to.

-AC

Iceman still has his same powers. He's just learned to better at it over the years. The Torch does not have his same powers. He was imbued with the power of cosmic.

Phoenix is a codename for Jean Grey. It has been for several years. Jean Grey without her Phoenix Potential has Omega-level telepathy and telekinisis. (New X-Men)

The Torch requires oxygen to burn. TK can remove the oxygen molecules around him reducing him back to his human form. A simple mental domination over his mind and the Torch would attack his teammates. The are many ways to defeat him.

Iceman cannot be melted, destroyed or killed. As long as there is moisture (like in Reed Richard's body) he's essentially impossible to kill.

I'm sure Ice-Man and Jean Grey will be on hand to take on Galactus next time he decides to take on the Earth.

If the FF were so smart and only dealt with the cosmic threats why did they come looking for the help of the X-men in the crossover comic. And then to top it all off they had to use the X-jet to get into orbit. Whats that all about?

Well, it was a crossover. I imagine it was all about that.

Why did they ask the X-Men for help? Because Marvel needed a reason to have them team up. And they sure as hell don't need the X-Jet to get into space, they got they're own sh*t for that.

It was written by a Japanese guy with obviously no real knowledge of either team. I highly doubt that the Fantastic Four had no way of scanning the space station for life. Not to mention needing a spacecraft.

you do all know that nightcrawler could tp into a buble, cut upen sue and tp out right?

and there is no frikin way torch will melt colossus, he can withstand mutiple blasts from havoc (wich is about as hot as the interior of the sun) and hes never been burned by anything (exept in AoA, but those where chem burns). and he has hightend reflex's and is a better fightedr than the thing.

toch vs ice man = stale mate

The Torch could arguably melt Colossus. Pyro did it. It doesn't matter anyway. X-Men wins.

The actually amount of degrees Colossus can resist is nowhere.....NOWHERE near the amount Torch can put out.

If Pyro melted Colossus, Torch is disintegrating him.

-AC

Thing is Sue's shield of +3 to blocking can block a whole mess of things. It can block telepathy and quite possibly Nightcrawler's teleport attempts and Iceman's attempt to freeze things past it.

ive also seen colossus walk right through pyros flame... and this is old colossus...

um but night crawler doesnt acualy teleport. he gets put into another dimention, moves to his desired place, then comes back ionto ours, but he does all of that in what feels like mila secondsd to us, and that ius why he has more touble tping upwards and why he is tired all the time.

"Thing is Sue's shield of +3 to blocking can block a whole mess of things. It can block telepathy and quite possibly Nightcrawler's teleport attempts and Iceman's attempt to freeze things past it."

Exactly. So that pretty much puts to bed the Jean/Ice-Man theory.

Why are we refering to NEW Colossus and NEW Ice-Man, but OLD Torch?

If we're refering to NEW X-Men. We're also referring to the New F4. Torch is a herald. The fight is done.

-AC

I know how it works but still. Those shields are friggen twink.

Sue's field can arguably block telepathy. But not Jean's telepathy. Sue may be protected momentarily but her teammates are left unprotected.

Iceman doesn't need to go through Sue's shield. He can just suck the moisture out of her, freeze the blood in veins, freeze her organs, etc.

Nightcrawler can teleport anywhere he pleases. Including insider Sue's forcefield.

Colossus WAS melted by Pyro back in the 80's. Kitty and Peter were on a date and it was ruined by an attack by the Brotherhood. Pyro melted Peter's skin and caused it to crack and rupture. He became a statue. He was saved by the Morlock Healer and Rogue.

but it would make no sense. ( i know its a comic book but...) nothing has ever stop nioght cralwer form tping any where

i wasnt arguing with u

maybe his skin improved... i'll try an dig up that pic i have...

"Sue's field can arguably block telepathy. But not Jean's telepathy"

If you don't even know if Sue can block telepathy, how do you know the degree to which she is capable of blocking it?

"Iceman doesn't need to go through Sue's shield. He can just suck the moisture out of her, freeze the blood in veins, freeze her organs, etc."

Not through a Sue Storm shield.

"Nightcrawler can teleport anywhere he pleases. Including insider Sue's forcefield."

Why can he?

"but it would make no sense. ( i know its a comic book but...) nothing has ever stop nioght cralwer form tping any where"

Does he not have to see where he's going? How can he see what's invisible and inside a forcefield?

Colossus being stronger or more durable is cool and all, but against people used to fighting Galactus, is it an impossible obstacle? No.

-AC

they are not used to fighing galactus, thety where getting there asses handed to them then reed pulled out the ultimate nulifier.

and nightcrawler does not acualy teleport, did u not read what i said?
"um but night crawler doesnt acualy teleport. he gets put into another dimention, moves to his desired place, then comes back ionto ours, but he does all of that in what feels like mila secondsd to us, and that ius why he has more touble tping upwards and why he is tired all the time."


and how willt he ff4 attack if they are surounded by her sheild the whole time?

To Alpha Centauri

Sue Storm's shield protects from various outside PHYSICAL influences. A bullet, a cannonball, Namor's fist. But it has it's limits.

I don't recall Sue Storm ever blocking telepathy with her shields but I'll take your word on it. Jean Grey's telepathy is Omega-level. She's a baby step behind Prof. X. Sue Storm cannot block any psychic attacks from her. Maybe she can block some psi-blasts. But Jean can do more than that. She can make her see things that aren't there. Cast illusions over Sue's teammates to make her think that they are her enemies. Shut down her senses. Make her vomit or defacte. The list goes on.

Iceman can manipulate the water in Sue's body. Forcefield or not. He has mental control of water molecules. Nothing is actually hitting the field.

Nightcrawler has enhanced senses. He could detect Sue's presence. It's not like he's going to affect the battle outcome anyway.

The FF uses the ultimate nulliefer or some wacky genius plan to defeat Galactus. Not brute force.

ok... uncanny xmen #177...

pyro uses massive amounts of fire to put colossus to boiling point... but colossus is stable, until avalanche drops liquid nitrogen on top of him... then he turns to stone...

it is unclear whether he was actually melting imo...

uncanny x-men #199...

pyro tries to take down colossus, colossus walks right through in metal form and knocks him out with one punch...

"they are not used to fighing galactus, thety where getting there asses handed to them then reed pulled out the ultimate nulifier."

Pulled out the ultimate nullifier and did what with it? Or used it to do what? The answer is: Defeat Galactus.

If they can defeat GALACTUS, why can they no defeat a bunch of Earth-born mutants? Come on now.

"and how willt he ff4 attack if they are surounded by her sheild the whole time?"

They have done so before. Point is, how will the X-Men attack if the F4 are surrounded by the sheild?

-AC

ok, if the ff4 have the ultimate nulifier they can beat anyone, but they dont carrie it around with them

The FF4 doesn't defeat Galactus. They scare him away. That's it. The Ultimate Nullifier destroys a universe. I think it would be in the FF4's best interest not to use it on the X-Men or anyone else for that matter.

The trick would be that her shield would block Iceman's influence on the molecules past her shields.

Nightcrawler is the only one I'd be iffy about the forcefield blocking.

The forcefield cannot block the Iceman's influence over H20 past her shields. I highly doubt it could.

"ok, if the ff4 have the ultimate nulifier they can beat anyone, but they dont carrie it around with them"

They don't need that to beat the X-Men.

"She's a baby step behind Prof. X. Sue Storm cannot block any psychic attacks from her. Maybe she can block some psi-blasts. But Jean can do more than that. She can make her see things that aren't there. Cast illusions over Sue's teammates to make her think that they are her enemies. Shut down her senses. Make her vomit or defacte. The list goes on."

How do you know that "Sue Storm cannot block psychic attacks from her"? If Sue can, then her teammates inside the bubble won't be affected either.

"Iceman can manipulate the water in Sue's body. Forcefield or not. He has mental control of water molecules. Nothing is actually hitting the field."

How is the mental control of these water molocules gonna penetrate her forcefield? Unless you can prove that he will succeed "forcefield or not", you shouldn't be saying it.

"The FF uses the ultimate nulliefer or some wacky genius plan to defeat Galactus. Not brute force."

They have enough brute force to overcome certain members of the X-Men, most infact. Colossus is the only brute force member included and I believe Thing can take him, he'd also most certainly go down to Torch. If they can plot a GENIUS PLAN to defeat Galactus, they can out plan and outsmart the X-Men. The X-Men are outclassed here.

"The FF4 doesn't defeat Galactus. They scare him away. That's it."

A retreat is a defeat. They won, the accomplished their mission which was to stop him.

"The forcefield cannot block the Iceman's influence over H20 past her shields. I highly doubt it could."

Exactly, you highly doubt it could. You aren't proving anything. So stop with all the "Sue cannot..." blah blah blah unless you can prove it.

-AC

crazyspinz... next time u create a thread... please... and i mean please... confirm which incarnations you use, whether jean has phoenix force, whether torch is current... all that crap...

Alpha Centari :

Your entire arguement rests on Sue Richards and the fact that the FF4 "defeated" Galactus. That's it.

"They don't need to beat the X-Men"

What are the FF4 going to do scare them away with a sample of Thing's toenails?

"How is the mental control of these water molocules gonna penetrate her forcefield? Unless you can prove that he will succeed "forcefield or not", you shouldn't be saying it."

Sue's forcefields guard against outside influences. That's it. Iceman ice spike attacks won't go through but mentally manipulating the blood in her brain to freeze certainly will. Her forcefields would not protect her.

"A retreat is a defeat. They won, the accomplished their mission which was to stop him."

The X-Men ain't gonna run away. The statement is utter bull.

This isn't every X-Man versus Sue Richards. This X-Men vs. Fantastic Four. Mr. Fantastic is taken out either by Iceman or Phoenix. The Thing would tussle with Colossus for awhile until Iceman freezes his heart. The Human Torch is completely vulnerable to a psychic attack or telekinetic manipulation of oxygen molecules.

What it really comes down to is Sue Richards. She can carry the team far but certainly not enough. Psychic attacks may not breach her shield but sensory/visual manipulation or H20 manipulation certainly will.

The FF4 are out of their league in this one. Face the truth.

I like the X Men in this fight. I'm petty sure there is a Fantastic 4 simulation in the Danger Room. All that needs to happen is Nightcrawler kamikaze's Sue at the outset and teleports them both into a wall (sacrifices must be made), then The Fantastic 4 are fantasically f*cked. If this is Phoenix Jean, she brain locks the remaining members and match is over. Piotr and Bobby just stand there and wonder what just happened and why there is a blue tail and a blood puddle next to the Baxter Building.

"All that needs to happen is Nightcrawler kamikaze's Sue at the outset and teleports them both into a wall (sacrifices must be made), then The Fantastic 4 are fantasically f*cked. If this is Phoenix Jean, she brain locks the remaining members and match is over. Piotr and Bobby just stand there and wonder what just happened and why there is a blue tail and a blood puddle next to the Baxter Building."

This is very very creative but all it is really, is you saying what you think would happen. You and Draco are confusing what you think, with what is likely.

"Your entire arguement rests on Sue Richards and the fact that the FF4 "defeated" Galactus. That's it."

Yours rests on saying that they cannot do things without proving it.

"What are the FF4 going to do scare them away with a sample of Thing's toenails?"

That's funny. Really, it is. You obviously have limited knowledge on the F4.

"Sue's forcefields guard against outside influences. That's it. Iceman ice spike attacks won't go through but mentally manipulating the blood in her brain to freeze certainly will. Her forcefields would not protect her."

Certainly will? Do you have proof or do you BELIEVE he most certainly will be able to freeze her? Coz it it's the latter, again you are proving nothing.

"The X-Men ain't gonna run away. The statement is utter bull."

I never said they would. If they stuck around they're either gonna be retreating with a great deal less of their members, or not retreating at all and losing all their members. It's that simple.

"This X-Men vs. Fantastic Four. Mr. Fantastic is taken out either by Iceman or Phoenix. The Thing would tussle with Colossus for awhile until Iceman freezes his heart. The Human Torch is completely vulnerable to a psychic attack or telekinetic manipulation of oxygen molecules."

Why are you pairing up characters with other characters just so you can try to gain an edge? They're not all gonna line up and pair together. This isn't dodgeball, you don't get to pick who you fight. You're also still assuming the X-Men can do these things to the F4 with no back-up or proof.

"Psychic attacks may not breach her shield but sensory/visual manipulation or H20 manipulation certainly will."

Visual? Nope. H20 certainly will? You keep saying that, never giving any reason why. You believing it will doesn't mean it will happen, chances are that if Jean cannot penetrate her shields/bubbles, Ice-Man's mind won't be able to. It's common sense.

"The FF4 are out of their league in this one. Face the truth."

Heed your own advice.

-AC

hysterical

dude... that is hilarious... but oddly plausible...

So what you are basically arguing that Sue's shield's can or cannot buffer Iceman's H20 manipulation or Jean's telepathy because I haven't offered proof or evidence. Where's your evidence? All I see is supposition and opinion. Countering an agrument by crying "lack of proof' isn't a good way to debate. In fact it's a p*** poor way to debate. Offer proof that Sue Richards fields CAN buffer the said above then I will gladly concede. Until then, the X-Men win hands down.

guys guys, there is no way to prove definitively whether sue could block jean and bobby or not... they've never been pitted against each other while they've possessed these capabilities... unless we know that then we'll never end this...

"Where's your evidence? All I see is supposition and opinion. Countering an agrument by crying "lack of proof' isn't a good way to debate. In fact it's a p*** poor way to debate. Offer proof that Sue Richards fields CAN buffer the said above then I will gladly concede. Until then, the X-Men win hands down."

You have repeatedly said she cannot do things. Repeatedly said that they F4 cannot do things. Where is YOUR evidence that they can't? Where is YOUR evidence that Ice-Man and Jean can break through or penetrate Sue's barrier? Hmm? You aren't giving any more evidence than I am. Sue and anyone else within her forcefield are protected from concussive force. Concussion can be cause psionically or physically. Moreover, they are mental forcefields. Therefore they are resistable to telepathy.

-AC

Is Iceman's ability to freeze water not an outside influence on the water itself? The reason Sue is likely to block his powers is because they're very similiar to telepathy/telekinesis which she can block.

Out of curiosity, what kind of Herald is Human Torch? Silver Surfer kind of herald or just boosted powers?

"Out of curiosity, what kind of Herald is Human Torch? Silver Surfer kind of herald or just boosted powers?"

Well Surfer had no powers before becoming a herald. Torch is a herald in the main sense of the word. I read a rumour that he's much stronger, boosted powers, or is soon to be made such in an upcoming F4 comic. #522 I think. The front cover sees him surrounded by a Sue Storm like forcefield.

-AC

"You have repeatedly said she cannot do things. Repeatedly said that they F4 cannot do things. Where is YOUR evidence that they can't? Where is YOUR evidence that Ice-Man and Jean can break through or penetrate Sue's barrier? Hmm? You aren't giving any more evidence than I am. Sue and anyone else within her forcefield are protected from concussive force. Concussion can be cause psionically or physically. Moreover, they are mental forcefields. Therefore they are resistable to telepathy."

The F***? Mental forcefields are resistable to telepathy? Concussions can be caused by psionic force or physical force, so obviously telepathy can't get through. Bull****. Please! You didn't prove anything! Sue Storm's forcefield's aren't mental forcefields. They are energy forcefields:

"Sue Richards' psionic ability to manipulate ambient cosmic energy enables her to bend light around her body without distortion, thus rendering herself invisible. The cells of her body produce an unknown form of energy she can mentally project around other people and objects -- rending them invisible, as well. Richards' brain cells produce psionic force she can shape into relatively simple forms - such as rectangle planes, globes, cylinders, cones and domes. Also, she can mentally project protective fields that are highly resistant to concussive forces. And by projecting columns of psionic force beneath her, she can travel through the air."

Her forcefields are made of ambient cosmic energy not mental energies. The "mental forcefields are resistant to telepathy" is nullified.

The X-MEN win.

I thought her force fields were merely invisible barriers. I kinda doubt that they are impenetrable by anything. You were also saying earlier that the fantastic 4 would win simply because sue could protect them from anything. But even if sue protects them, they are on the defensive, so you fail to state how they would further stategize to defeat the x-men.

Yea thats probably it.

Also Onslaught psychic attacks took Sue Richards out in second during the "Heroes Reborn" storyline. She had a shield up and she fell anyway.

Psylocke also read the mind of Juggernaut through his helmets in that arc. Plus it's freakin Onslaught.

"Plus it's freakin Onslaught."

Exactly. No one on the X-Men team has Onslaught's telepathic or psionic ability.

"Concussions can be caused by psionic force or physical force, so obviously telepathy can't get through. Bull****. Please! You didn't prove anything! Sue Storm's forcefield's aren't mental forcefields. They are energy forcefields."

She PSIONICALLY absorbs it and MENTALLY manifests it. There are two main telepathic qualities in the creation of those shields. I said that CONCUSSIVE force is called such because it has CONCUSSIVE effects (knockout, concussion). Concussion and knockout can be caused mentally/psionically or physically. She is untouchable by those mediums when in protection of her forcefields. Calm down with the profanity junior. If you can't take the heat, stay out of my kitchen.

"The "mental forcefields are resistant to telepathy" is nullified."

Read above junior.

"You were also saying earlier that the fantastic 4 would win simply because sue could protect them from anything. But even if sue protects them, they are on the defensive, so you fail to state how they would further stategize to defeat the x-men."

They don't need to be all inside Sue's barrier really. She can place forcefields around multiple objects or people. Even render them invisible at the same time. So not only would the X-Men have to FIND the F4, but they wouldn't be able to anything when they did.

However, let's suppose that you are correct just for fun. How would they defeat the X-Men from within the shield had they all been under the same one and couldn't attack back? Well on the flip, if they can't attack out and X-Men can't get in, no one is gonna defeat anyone. F4 will have defeated the X-Men's only method of attack. Rendered them useless. So would be a stalemate.

F4 outclass the X-Men.

-AC

Psylocke didn't read his mind. She plunged her psychic dagger into his head. Apparently her psydagger was able to penetrate Jugg's helmet. Onslaught is Xavier on rampage. He still has Xavier's telepathy.

"Onslaught is Xavier on rampage. He still has Xavier's telepathy."

But Onslaught isn't part of this fight. Unless he joined the X-Men and I'm THAT out of touch.

-AC

To Alpha Centari :

You obviously ignored the excerpt because you would know that she PSYCHICALLY manipulates ambient cosmic energy. Concussions and telepathy have nothing to do with each other. The forcefields would not protect her from psychic illusions, psychic manipulations, telekinetic control or any other psychic attack. Your argument is very flimsy. You haven't proven that her forcefields can protect against all forms of telepathy. You've only said that "concussive" forces cannot penetrate her shields

The X-Men don't need to find the FF4. Jean can psychically sense their presence, Iceman can just adjust his sight to read temperatures and Kurt can use his enhanced senses to hear or smell them.

The FF4 would put up a good fight, but they would lose.

The X-Men wins.

Really?

wait wait wait, you just say that it would end in a stalemate, and just because you say so, the fantastic 4 win?

Huh. I was referring to the battle between Juggs and Psylocke, Beast and Bishop. It's either a result of the Crimson Dawn or most probably a writer's screwup. If Xavier can't read Juggs mind, then Psylocke certainly can't.

Stalemate = FF4 wins.

Yeah, right.

"The forcefields would not protect her from psychic illusions, psychic manipulations, telekinetic control or any other psychic attack. Your argument is very flimsy. "

Stop saying the forcefields wouldn't protect her from psychic offense without proving why. You've never heard of a psionic concussion? I suggest you read some more comics involving telepaths. When a mind numbing bolt is used to knock out an opponent, it's a psionic concussion. If mind powers (telepathy, telekinetics and psionics) have no way of penetrating her field due to her being resistant and untouchable to any kind of concussive force whilst inside them, how is Jean or Xavier having any effect? Answer: They aren't.

"The X-Men don't need to find the FF4. Jean can psychically sense their presence, Iceman can just adjust his sight to read temperatures and Kurt can use his enhanced senses to hear or smell them."

How can she sense their presence? Sue would have them all protected by an individual forcefield (which she is capable of). So psychic power would have no effect. Outside influences don't work so how you think Ice-Man can all of a sudden see someone who's protected by a forcefield AND invisible, is silly. As for smell, hahaha. How's he gonna smell through a forcefield? Be real.

"The X-Men wins."

No, they do not. If you believe they do, start proving it. Coz right now, you're not doing anything to prove me wrong besides saying "She can't", "He can".

"Stalemate = FF4 wins. Yeah, right."

I never said this. At all.

"wait wait wait, you just say that it would end in a stalemate, and just because you say so, the fantastic 4 win?"

What in the Hell? Go and read my post please. I gave you a realisation of a scenario you mentioned. You asked what would happen if the F4 couldn't attack while inside a forcefield. I said, if they can't attack out, and the X-Men can't attack in, what will happen? F4 would have taken away any form of attack the X-Men can use. It would be a stalemate.

I THEN said, The F4 outclass the X-Men. NOT connected to the above statement. I said it in closing.

Read my posts.

-AC

"Stop saying the forcefields wouldn't protect her from psychic offense without proving why. You've never heard of a psionic concussion? I suggest you read some more comics involving telepaths. When a mind numbing bolt is used to knock out an opponent, it's a psionic concussion. If mind powers (telepathy, telekinetic and psionics) have no way of penetrating her field due to her being resistant and untouchable to any kind of concussive force whilst inside them, how is Jean or Xavier having any effect? Answer: They aren't."

Alpha. You HAVEN'T proven that telepathy can't penetrate her forcefield. The statement above is inviable. In fact all of your arguments are inviable.

However I have some shred of evidence that Sue Storm is vulnerable to telepathy: Psycho Man. Psycho Man utilizes a device that PSYCHICALLY manipulates one's emotions and MENTALLY controls them. Psycho Man turned the Invisible Woman against her teammates. Despite her forcefields the device worked on her anyway. She turned into Malice and attacked the FF4 members. (Fantastc Four #287) Thus proving that telepathy can go through her forcefield and nullifying any of you prior arguments.

The X-MEN Win.

"Alpha. You HAVEN'T proven that telepathy can't penetrate her forcefield. The statement above is inviable. In fact all of your arguments are inviable."

Now that we've concluded you don't like the truth, but have clearly admitted it inside somewhere:

Fantastic Four #287 where Dr.Doom poses as the Invincible Man? Coz Psycho Man isn't in that issue.

After digging through my comics, I found something.

Malice is an entity, comprising of Sue Storm's dark side that she left over from the Infinity Wars. She appeared first in "Jungle Action #8". She wasn't spawned by Psycho Man.

-AC

"Now that we've concluded you don't like the truth"

What truth? You have NO EVIDENCE. Jeez!

My apologies (damn betas) I looked it up again and found it was actually in Secret Wars II #2.

That's another Malice. (There's lots of Malices)