FF vs. These four X-men redux

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demigawd
ok, that other thread got a little confusing, so let's qualify this a bit more for Round 2.

The Fantastic Four:

Reed Richards as of 2003
Sue Richards as of 2003
Johnny Storm as of 2003
Ben Grimm as of 2003

vs.

The X-men:

Jean Grey as of 2003
Storm as of 2003
Iceman as of 2003
Colossus as 2004

Go to it!

Alpha Centauri
From the offset, Jean Grey? No Phoenix Force? Or are we talking Phoenix.

Coz the name says Jean Grey.

-AC

radioboy121
I'm still not fully sure if Astonishing X-Men is normal stream, so Colossus could also still be dead. Can you specify what their designated powers at that point as abilities are constantly changing unless told up to a certain issue; it's hard to remember what issue goes with what year after awhile.

stormfront13
I give this to the x-men. Storm can easily take out human torch because she already did in the contest of champions. i think that colossus will be able to take care of the thing(maybe). Ice man and jean can take out sue and reed. The only tough competion would be sue.

Alpha Centauri
Oh no.

Not Contest of Champions again.

Does anyone actually realise that it was a series created purely for the purpose of "anyone can win"?

-AC

stormfront13
It doesn't matter, storm can counteract almost any of his powers!

demigawd
Jean Grey at the level she was at in 2003. That means high level telepathy and telekinesis. THere will be NO debate about whether or not she's Phoenix - we're just using her appearances during 2003, which include realizing her potential in TP and TK.

WHat do you mean you're not sure if Astonishing is a normal stream? Of course it's in continuity - what gave you the impression that it was otherwise? It was even referenced in other X-titles.

Use the characters as you think of them now, man. Not their 1973 version, and not some weird AOA/Days of Futures Past version or anything else. As you think of them now. Jeez...

And Contest of Champions is fair game!

stormfront13
I always thought contest of champions was fair too, but according to AC their not.

Alpha Centauri
Contest of Champions was created purely out of Chris Claremont's ego driven desire to have an everyone Vs everyone, anyone can win comic.

Do I detect a little Claremont bias just because he's been good to SOMEONE'S favourite character?

How is it fair game? Storm could never beat Torch.

Storm is much better to have in this fight than Nightcrawler I'll admit. What is she bringing effectively though? The weather (already have Ice-Man).

Unless it's some drastic change that could actually make their team vastly better, I back F4.

-AC

demigawd
Storm is capable of taking out Mr. Fantastic. Something Nightcrawler can't do.

Alpha Centauri
I'm not grumpy, I just don't see how a comic created for the very purpose of pitting characters against each other regardless of powers is fair game.

We all actually know Storm isn't capable of defeating Torch don't we?

-AC

demigawd
And are you accusing me of Claremont bias? Perish the thought! Contest of Champions happened in this reality, in this continuity, in this timeline. So the results are valid and binding. It wasn't a What If, so it's perfectly fair to reference the results of the fights there on this board.

demigawd
I think Storm is very much capable of taking out Torch. It's not like Torch radiates cosmic fire or anything. Wolverine took him out with a fire extinguisher, lol.

pr1983
alpha... whether she could beat torch is debatable...

but seriously... she's one of the strongest mutants there is... 'the weather' is alot more powerful than you seem to realise...

stormfront13
All storm had to do was create a big gust of wind and torches flame was out and he was falling to the ground! She almost took him out with one attack. You are not giving storm enough credit! Torch had lured her into the basement of a building and burned all the support. the building was falling and storm manuvered her way out and used her wind to make the building fall on him. I find it impressive that storm alone could support a building long enough for herself to get out. She has taken him out once so why couldn't she do it again. Storm has numerous ways of taking out torch. Storm could also tako out reed because he might not be able to get a hold of her because she will be to fast for him. I'm not saying that she definitley could but its a true possibility.

demigawd
I'd have to give this fight to the X-men. Colossus takes Thing in a close one. Jean mind-blasts Sue. And Iceman/Storm can choose from among Reed and Johnny and beat either. Johnny wouldn't nova flame with the rest of the group around, and that would have been his only means of taking out his two biggest threats in one shot. If he takes out Iceman, Storm will get him. If he takes out Storm, Iceman will get him. And I don't think Reed has quite enough oomph to save Johnny fast enough.

Alpha Centauri
"And are you accusing me of Claremont bias? Perish the thought! Contest of Champions happened in this reality, in this continuity, in this timeline. So the results are valid and binding. It wasn't a What If, so it's perfectly fair to reference the results of the fights there on this board."

I never said you couldn't refer to it. Refer to it all you like.

I don't see how it's accurate being that it is factually just a fantasy match series. Regardless of mismatches. It's basically making people who aren't equal, equal, for the purpose of Claremont wanting to see them fight. If you can refer to that knowing how it is, then that's an extremely questionable outlook. It wasn't sold or marketed as a What If, but it was a comic series based on Claremont's "What if these characters fought?" "But she'd lose to him." "Nah but see, what if they were equal." "That wouldn't make sense." "Since when did anything I come up with make much sense?" "True."

Yes I am accusing you of Claremont bias because you clearly are. Am I wrong? All of his Magneto pushes are just coincidence?

Stormfront, you're going by Contest of Champions I trust?

On topic and considering their powers:

That not withstanding. I never demeaned Storm's power PR, she's powerful. Very. However it is essentially just the weather. The elements are gonna be inaffective against some of the F4.

"I'd have to give this fight to the X-men. Colossus takes Thing in a close one. Jean mind-blasts Sue. And Iceman/Storm can choose from among Reed and Johnny and beat either. Johnny wouldn't nova flame with the rest of the group around, and that would have been his only means of taking out his two biggest threats in one shot. If he takes out Iceman, Storm will get him. If he takes out Storm, Iceman will get him. And I don't think Reed has quite enough oomph to save Johnny fast enough."

I really don't understand why people have a habit of saying it like it's happened. It's a bit presumptuous to say it like that. Is there any point of creating a decent thread if all that's gonna happen is you come in and say "This happens to him, this happens to her. The X-Men win"?

You say I'm not giving Storm credit but you are saying they will or would do things. How do you know this? Could, might? Yes. Would, will? No.

-AC

laydiiplayette
They aren't really stating what has happened, they are getting ready for your posts, which will most likely contradict them. If they didn't say that, you would say that it was illogical or some bs like that. You have a habit of also saying what WILL happen (in your point of view, that is).

manjaro
i dont even know where to begin

Alpha Centauri
No I don't. I say what could and might happened based on the powers.

I never make a post like Demi just did, claiming how a fight will go in detail. Why? Coz I don't know how it'll go. Hasn't happened.

Please stop making every thread about me and how I post. Getting a little sick of being the centre of attention all the time.

-AC

laydiiplayette
I'm not making it about you. You take it as if it is. You don't want it to seem like its about you? Then don't make yourself think your that important.

demigawd
No more or less so than Secret Wars or COC1. It was a title that was primarily designed to see who would win certain dream matches. I found the results to be largely accurate. I always believed that Storm could beat Human Torch. She did. I always believed that Storm would get owned by Thor. She was. I always believed that Black Panther vs. Cap would be incredibly close. It was. (I had my money on BP, though). I don't recall there being any results that I found outrageously questionable. By "outrageously questionable", I mean, "Spider-Man beats Thor". If Torch had beaten Storm instead, I would have disagreed, but I wouldn't have found that "outrageously questionable".





I don't remember the series all that well, but what fights didn't sit well with you? (I won't attempt to rebutt anything after this, since it'll take us way off topic).



Well, I love Magneto, and Claremont is the definitive Magneto writer, but I never loved Claremont *specifically* because he writes Magneto as a powerhouse. In fact, Magneto was constantly getting punked while he was an X-man. I still liked the stories.

And I love Magneto not so much because of how he's written. I love him because he's a character based firmly in scientific principles. It makes debating about him fun to me. I often support Graviton in his fights for similar reasons.



Storm's power would be ineffective against Sue. But I don't see how it would be ineffective against anybody else.

laydiiplayette
well, if it rained, you could see where's sue's force fields and stuff are.

stormfront13
I'm goin by my own knowlege of storm and the humantorch. I like both of these characters but I think that there's no way that torch will win. Do you even know what destruction can cause? I'm not saying what they wll or will not do. I was restating what happened in the comic. ALso I give my opinion about the fights . I'm not the one who decides who wins and who doesn't. You can either agree with my statements or disagree.

demigawd
How'd I get dragged into this???

What's wrong with scripting a fight? I'm not saying, "It'll definitely go like this". I'm just saying, "This is what I think would happen....". Any writer could write any fight to go any way he wants. Naturally.

Victor Von Doom
I think to envisage a winner you obviously have to imagine how it'll play out on some level. I think splitting it into four distinct fights is pushing it though.

Alpha Centauri
"I'm not making it about you. You take it as if it is. You don't want it to seem like its about you? Then don't make yourself think your that important."

I don't think I'm important. You are the one hunting me down in every thread, bringing that around. Stop it. Are you posting about the thread? No. Posting about me? Yes.

Demi: Secret Wars was a good and evil fantasy battle. The characters were not all equal in power. Contest of Champions is Claremont making everyone like that just so he'd see who'd win.

"I don't remember the series all that well, but what fights didn't sit well with you? (I won't attempt to rebutt anything after this, since it'll take us way off topic)."

Every fight involved in it didn't sit well with me because of the reason it was created. Claremont abused his position to create something for himself.

"Well, I love Magneto, and Claremont is the definitive Magneto writer, but I never loved Claremont *specifically* because he writes Magneto as a powerhouse. In fact, Magneto was constantly getting punked while he was an X-man. I still liked the stories."

Yes but if we look at the grand scheme, everything Claremont has done is either

A) Total crap.

or B) Became total crap.


Like I said. With respect to all the decent posters in this forum, I don't like nor agree with why Contest of Champions was created. I believe it was self serving and ego driven.

So out of respect to the posters and the thread, as stated before, I would rather not comment on a thread that I don't personally agree with if all I'm gonna get is Contest of Champions. If that's what this debate is based around, fine by me if you wanna do that. I won't ruin a thread by telling you what I already have.

I think that's respectful.

-AC

demigawd
To each is own, I suppose. But I'm a man of my word, I won't debate the COC thing any further. I'd like to hear the positions of other posters on how this battle would go. VV Doom makes a good point when he says that we're perhaps focusing too much on individual matchups.

stormfront13
I don't get the big deal with AC saying that scrpting the fight is wrong. When I say what will happen I say it out of my opinion. I'm not saying that it will actually happen.

laydiiplayette
See, your doing it again, making it about yourself. Its not. Its not like you only post on a select few. You post on most of them. Some of them that I am interested in. Anyways, I don't want to post about it because I know your just gonna reply and something in your post is gonna piss me off, so I'd rather just defend others that are arguing for who I think is going to win.

stormfront13
Who are you talkin about laydiiplayette?-me?

laydiiplayette
no.

Alpha Centauri
"I don't get the big deal with AC saying that scrpting the fight is wrong. When I say what will happen I say it out of my opinion. I'm not saying that it will actually happen."

It's not wrong, it's just silly. I don't think it's fun at all or any kind of way to debate.

"See, your doing it again, making it about yourself. Its not. Its not like you only post on a select few. You post on most of them. Some of them that I am interested in. Anyways, I don't want to post about it because I know your just gonna reply and something in your post is gonna piss me off, so I'd rather just defend others that are arguing for who I think is going to win."

Stop addressing me outside of the thread topic. Stop. Simple request. How about defend yourself as to why you think someone will win? Why just agree with someone else? Your choice though.

The reference of choice seems to be Contest of Champions and if that be your choice, fine. I don't see how or why you'd want to have that as back up considering why it was created so replying with that to me isn't much good to you. Coz I'm always gonna view it as one man's abuse of position, which it was.

So like I SAID before I was replied to AGAIN by Lady, out of respect to those who still wanna use the thread, I'm not gonna post in it.

-AC

Euripides
Good Lord. Your holier than thou attitude is getting highly annoying.

stormfront13
ok.

Alpha Centauri
Holier than thou? Did I not just say that I'd respect others choices to base the thread on that and leave out of respect for the forum and the posters who choose to use it?

Yes. So zip it.

I have my views and once I've said them once or twice, I see no reason to ruin threads.

Anyone wants to say anything to me now can take it to PM.

-AC

Euripides
Blah Blah Blah. Please. Your words are lost on me. You claim to respect other people. You don't. I've read your posts. You insult people behind their back.

And get of your pedestal. You preaching to the choir.

demigawd
I think scripting battles is a fun way of playing the writer. I mean, what's the point of having a vs. board if you're limited to saying, "Hulk is stronger, therefore he wins". Be creative! Let loose a little bit! You don't like Claremont, BECOME the writer in the thread and do it your way instead! I find the most entertaining posts are the ones where someone puts some effort into their answers. But I guess it's just a matter of personal taste.

Euripides
See Alpha? ALOT of people dislike you.

laydiiplayette
lol, you sound like my 9th grade World Lit. teacher. He was cool.

Alpha Centauri
"Blah Blah Blah. Please. Your words are lost on me. You claim to respect other people. You don't. I've read your posts. You insult people behind their back. "

Apparantly you found them worthy of posting in this thread for. Oh and by the way, if Euripedes doesn't like you he'll attempt to send you an email virus as he did to me recently. Thought I'd bring that up. Not to pop the bubble but it's hard to insult people behind their back here. You can't exactly go "Psst Demi, I really don't like so and so."

I agree to an extent Demi, it's when it gets to the point that people become the writer to a degree of overlooking things. I take powers into consideration and what might happen also. People have gone so far as to rule out things, "This won't happen because she can do this. I don't care if Torch can do that."

Either way, people on these boards such as you, disagree with me sometimes. We understand each other though, correct? I really am tired of never claiming anything about myself yet having all these people invade threads to tell me how great I think I am. Has anybody at all besides me noticed this and think that it should end, for the sake of the forum?

-AC

Euripides
You degrade people. And you know it. Stop acting. It's really quite sad. And you insult people behind their back. You give a heart-warming speech when they are present but you talk trash about them when they are gone :

"It's just absolutely no fun. The threads that are fun, just become pointless coz you get a Sentinel Boy or an IRTMU that you have to explain things to about 90 times."

Hypocrite

Alpha Centauri
"You degrade people. And you know it. Stop acting. It's really quite sad. And you insult people behind their back. You give a heart-warming speech when they are present but you talk trash about them when they are gone :"

I do? I think everyone on this forum can attest to the fact that if I think you're talking rubbish I'll tell you. I don't dislike anyone on this forum really. I might dislike their attitude on here, but that's as far as it goes. You're all screen names to me at the end of the day, as I should be to you.

I don't think I'm anything special. You and others spend more time hyping me up to be something I never claimed, than I ever have.

Do me a favour, get off my jock, take a chill pill and relax.

Because you know what? When it comes to the crunch, if it comes down to the crunch, I'll have more people on this forum backing me than going against me.

-AC

Euripides
You don't have jock. You've been emasculated since birth.

Victor Von Doom
I think the intervention of Mrs Garrett's giant rack is required about now.

Alpha Centauri
How are these people not banned?

-AC

demigawd
Aww...my poor thread. Where has it gone?

Euripides
Because they honestly hate you too.

Euripides
For the love... Torch wins. One Super Nova blast and Storm's a crispy critter.

laydiiplayette
you told me you thought very highly of yourself.

Alpha Centauri
Well we agree Euri smile.

-AC

Euripides
My god. A sense of humility. The world is going to end, I know it. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Alpha Centauri
Yeah, it will one day.

-AC

stormfront13
what are we talking about anymore??

Alpha Centauri
At this point I'd like everyone to take notice of when this thread went downhill and who was responsible.

-AC

Kackdee
See. Hello again. You know who this.

stormfront13
was it me??

Alpha Centauri
No it wasn't you Stormfront.

Oh look who's back.

-AC

Kackdee
Look closer.

Victor Von Doom
Are you going to quickly flick him in the face?

Kackdee
It's an Internet forum. Smartass.

Victor Von Doom
Oh...oh yeah.

Tron
Euripides, you've been warned once already, and you continue.

So, say goodbye to your forum posting days, cause you are banned indefinitely.

crazyspinz
wow, ff4 vs xmen threads always have crazy things happen in them

TronLoser
Yeah Right. roll eyes (sarcastic)

crazyspinz
wow, you are acualy the most retated person in the world

TronLoser
Nah. Just dedicated.

crazyspinz
no, retarted

pr1983
oh sweet jesus...

WindDancer
Bye bye Euripides socks!

Tron
Right, indeed.wink

WindBreaker
Hello Hello Again! sick

laydiiplayette
...

crazyspinz
you have way to much time on your hands

pr1983
indeed...

Yawn
Well this has gotten boring. Oh well. Guess I'll catch up on my reading for my classes. Teasing Internet Forum nerds has been fun though. evil face

Alpha Centauri
I knew someone had to be orchestrating all the Anti-Alpha feeling around here. Shoulda known it was you.

Keep getting banned.

-AC

Tron
Please do, cause it's so much fun.wink

Oh, and stay on topic.

WindDancer
As Tron has mention please keep this on topic.

And please don't feed the Troll and report his posts.

-WD

crazyspinz
cant you ban his IP adress or something, some guys in my WoW guild got banned and they couldnt post on the forums from the same computer

Tron
Being worked on as we speak.

crazyspinz
k

manjaro
this thread is almost dead man, let me attempt to revive it. IMO it still would boil down to jean vs Sue. they are easily the two heaviest hitters here. however, since Reed would come in with all sorts of brain smarts jean could read his mind and figure out thier game plan b4 hand. but i refuse to beleive this group of x men can still win.

stormfront13
I still thik that the x-men have numerous ways ou taking the ff4

Scoobless
wow....... i just read all the posts thus far........ lol........ sorry i missed out on it all

anyway, sue's forcefield blocks jeans telepathy as well as storm's and colossus's attacks (don't know about iceman) she could encase jean inside a field to block her off of all FF members (and suffocate her) while creating another shield around herself reed and ben to let johnny fire off some major heat and finish it

or, she could turn ben invisible and let him take out colossus, jean - forcefield again, torch melt iceman, reed could wrap around storm

the FF's teamwork is far superior to the x-men's which is why they would win this

demigawd
Since when did Sue's forcefield block telepathy? Getting confirmation on whether she's done that before would be critical in viewing how this fight would go.

The way I see it, Jean takes point and psi-blasts the entire FF4 team before the X-men even arrive on the battlefield. Everybody goes down. Even if Sue does manage to survive that, she can't take the X-men by herself.

As far as I'm concerned, the psi-factor makes this pretty one-sided in favor of X-men.

Scoobless
which explains my strategy of using the forcefield to block it, i'll try to dig up where that is referenced from for you

Scoobless
looks like i picked it up from the other FF X Men thread

"radioboy121
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2004
Location:
Although I hate to say it, but that bubble field is notoriously strong that Invisible Woman uses and has proven to negate Jean's influence both telepathic and telekinetic (i.e. shown when Avengers and FF found her in the incubator and when she went offensive, none of the members, except Invisible Woman could stop her)."

this is where i first heard it, but no-one argued over it there so i assumed they had known about it as well

demigawd
I don't remember Jean telepathically assaulting anyone in that story. It was a psionic blast that put down a bunch of Avengers, etc. But it was entirely telekinetic IIRC.

I'd be shocked to hear of a story where Sue was able to deflect telepathy with her shields.

If anyone else here who read the story more recently can clarify this, or knows of some other instance where Sue blocked telepathy with her field, that would be great.

As it stands, however, the FF wins or loses based on this one factor. And no, they don't get prep time to build psionic deflectors unless the X-men get prep time to ask Forge to build them a cosmic energy absorption module...

Scoobless
ok, untill i get confirmation (which may never come) on the force field v's telepathy thing, i'll leave it

HOWEVER, i have never read an x-men story where jean goes into a fight against anyone and immediately starts trying to shut down minds.... so i don't believe it's in her character to do this until she is desperate, which would be too late in this case

mr F already has psionic deflectors (or dampeners or blockers or whatever he calls them) but wont have them at the ready, so no go
there

based on their usual tactics i would go with the FF (like you hadn't guessed) purely due to their cohesiveness as a team

demigawd
Jean simultaneously attacked Magneto telepathically and telekinetically.

Jean attacked Apocalypse telepathically while Scott attacked him physically

Jean tried to attack Onslaught's mind when they first thought

Jean mind-blasted an entire group of Magistrates

Jean mind-blasted Colossus during danger room sparring

Jean telepathically attacked the Hulk when he invaded the mansion

I'd say Jean does telepathic attacks *at least* as often as she does telekinetic attacks now.

stormfront13
yeah, she does. wether or not jeans telepathy affects sues forcefields is not that impoetant to me. Can't iceman just freeze her blood?? If she's out then the x-men will win. In my opinion sue is the deciding factor, if shes taken out quick then the x-men win, but if she's hard to take down then the x-men might lose.

Scoobless
torch could waste everybody all at once and claim victory for his team...... even though he may be the only one left alive

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