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Very good thinking!
Look in many other threads, there's already been more talking about this issue> Look at the "spoilers from MF"-thread or the "Latest updates from TFN"-thread!

then wtf is the point of 'the chosen one'?
it would essentially kill the overall story that anakin is the
only one can bring balance to the force. he is the only one
powerful enough to overcome sid's power. without that
element, the central character is stripped of much power
and significance.

palps will take a dive, since he knows mace cant touch him.
he will do so for the sole purpose of luring anakin to the dark
side. but he will be in control, at every moment. even when
he seems to be defeated.

yes

Or it shows Sids being weak and nothing without Anakin!
Anakin gave into the DarkSide and that's where it ends for Anakin being more powerfull than Sids, so yeah from a certain point of view Sids is very much in control.
Sidious is a very dangerous mastermind, but Mace Windu proves to be one of the most skilled swordsman in the order...I believe.
But yet again, we'll have to see in the end

the "chosen one" and "the will of the force" are very mystical concepts, closely tied to the idea of fate......the fact that mace loses the duel in the end despite being a superior swordsman plays into this nicely really, when you think about it....

Thanks man !

the point im making is that the entire story pivots around anakin and the prophecy. palpatine is the ultimate evil and a master of the darkside, and only the chosen one can defeat him. and in ep6 anakin lets go of the darkside and uses his power to kill palps. he didnt fulfill the prophecy by turning good, he did so by killing palps. if he wasnt the only one who could, then like i said...wtf is the point?

what you say seems to assume that palps' ultimate power is only over those that fall to the darkside.

good point....well rather it was worded the right way. We all should know that it focuses on Anakin. Anakin has always been stronger than Sidious, he just has the edge mentally over Vader/Anakin. Thats the only reason why Vader was subservant to him. I truely beleinve that Vader caould of taken out Palps whenever he wanted, but until Luke came along, he never had a reason to. he did whatever he wanted whennever he wanted. Ok, so he had to spit out "Master" here and there, but he was the muscle behind it all.

Sorry, Subjekt, you are wrong, GL directly states that Vader has lost most of his power and so he would be very secondary to Palps at this point.

The Chosen one CAN re-balance the Force if it becomes totally unbalanced. Nowhere is it ever said that someone else can't stop it becoming unbalanced in the first place, if Windu comes close to achieveing this.

Indeed, if the story IS that inevitable then it loses all its point.

Not to discredit what you said, but where did he say that?

Commentary on the OT DVDs; Anakin lost his power when he became cybernised, and the Emperor never got what he wanted- hence the Emperor looking to Luke.

then whats the point in the prophacy if any jedi has the potential to defeat palps? and as far as stopping the force from being unbalanced...the force is already way unbalanced as the jedi's vision is clouded, and palps runs the senate and has absolute power in ep2.

palps IS the inbalance...his very existance. as a sith, his only goal is to control the galaxy. the only difference between him in the PT is that he hides his identity...but he still controls everything. there is no balance. and if there was, then at what point is it lost?

It is BECOMING imbalanced, but it won't be fully so until Sidious wins at the end of Episode III.

"Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy," says GL- the second FOLLOWS the first; it is not out of balance yet, just going that way.

There doesn't HAVE to be a point of the Prophecy. It is just there as a possibility. IF the Force becomes unbalanced, THEN the Chosen one can restore it.

If Palpatine could not be stopped before that point it is ludicrous, totally ludicrous- he may as well just walk into the Temple and kill all the Jedi personally, because nothing can stop him. Instead he enagages in a massively complicated ten year plan that he takes great pains not to let the Jedi de-rail. By any logic, and by GL's words, it WAS possible to stop Sidious first. Just they do not.

very good points ush...

In one of the threads there's that interview with Samuel L. Jackson; he says that the he was winning against palps. Now whether palps was doing that on purpose or not we'll just have to wait till the movie or a big spoiler.

i dont translate it that way. the way i see it, anakin's turn assures palps' survival, since the one who could defeat him has chosen not to. at that point, since palps cannot be defeated, balance is lost completely.

"palps will take a dive, since he knows mace cant touch him.
he will do so for the sole purpose of luring anakin to the dark
side. but he will be in control, at every moment. even when
he seems to be defeated"-PVS

I totally agree PVS,

Any possibility that Sidious gains more power after Anakin turns to the darkside? Hence he is able to defeat Yoda....? hmmmmmmm. A thought........anyone?

but anakin wont fully turn until the duel...i think

he won't be turned at all.
he doesn't exist.
it's just a movie dudes

It's not a matter of translation! He clearly says that the unbalancing occurs after he turns- and the final act is, of course, the destruction of the Jedi.

Palpatine very much could have possibly been beaten. But once he wins, only the Chosen One could have stopped him. But at the time of the Mace fight, he hasn't won yet.

"Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy"

my opinion: only anakin can defeat palps, anakin turns and joins palps, palps has no more enemies capable of killing him...balance is destroyed. i can see the arguement you put forth ush, and i think it is valid. what i fail to see is how there is no room for translation. its all opinion.

what is the point of 'the chosen one' if someone else could have defeated him? then it could have been any powerful jedi who would survive the purge. it could have been kenobi...or yoda...or luke. besides, GL states that anakin is the only one who can kill palps. i can see that you argue that he meant "at that point in the story" and that he wasnt saying that nobody in the PT could defeat palps...but that too is up to translation.

As I agree more with PVS, the only other way i can think of this logically, is if it all boils down to "destiny". So, and ill prolly get a little confusing on this, maybe its not that, "he kills palps cause hes the chosen one" , but more hes the chosen one BECAUSE he kills palps. Know what i mean? Like maybe it want written in stone that one would be born to destroy the Sith, but more like, had Mace been the one to kill Palps, then HE would have been hailed the chosen one. It just so happens to be Anakin that does it. And while they (the jedi) may have seen the end result (anakin destroying palps), they just couldnt see the inbetween times (sith Vader) because of the darkside clouding aspect.

I hope that made sense the way i wrote it, but if not, ask me a direct question as to what i meant and ill do my best to clarify.

well...you forgot the whole immaculate conception thing.
the chosen one was said to have been concieved by the force.
sorry to throw a wrench in your machine

For Sidious losing... it was said that everyone would lose a duel in the movie.. so one would think that Sidious would lose, too. It was pointed out in the most recent HS chat with Rick.

yes...he'll lose, thats not being debated.
whats being debated is if mace actually bests him,
or if palps plays possum (say that 3 times fast) in an
attempt to get anakin to turn (which as we know worked nicely
if this was the case)

Ah, k.

PossumPossumPossum. I think he'd be playing possum to get Anakin to defend him, in turn turning to the dark side. It would work nicely, and I think GL might see that too. Mace might be able to best him, though. Hm... I'd have to think on that. Either way is plausable.

Direct Quote from Mr. Jackson himself:

"...I'm standing there and I'm winning actually even without Anakin's help up until he steps in and does what he does to turn the tide and that, you know, I go out the way I do. I've been begging not to die in my sleep or get stabbed in the back by, you know, some clone and it didn't happen. So I'm happy." - SLJ


So Mace is in the lead...

Youre right PVS, but im just trying to give us a compelling argument, lol. Im on youre side with this debate. And like you said, Ush's comments are ligitiment, but im with you on the whole, "what the purpose then?" aspect of it.

NO KOZZY!!!!

you have to say "palps plays possum" 3 times fast

and snakebyte, like i said, its well known that mace will seemingly get the better of palps. but who's to say palps would not orchestrate his own defeat, as he's done from the start...you know...orchestrating the occupation of his own world by the federation...allowing the rebels to know the location of the shield generator...putting himself at further risk so that he may reap greater rewards...and what greater a reward than having the 'chosen one' on a leash. palps is one thing above all: overconfident. he proves this time and time again.

and yes subject, i find ush's arguement to be completely valid. i just dont see it as fact.

he still force choked people though so he didnt lose all his powers

he didnt say he lost ALL his power, just that mech vader is literally half the man he used to be, whether it be physically or in his force powers. doesnt mean he lost it, or became weak in any way. it just means he's not the 'ultimate jedi' anymore...not that he ever was.

Ok, as a fan of the REAL SW, namely the OT, i refuse to incorparate the midichlorian count crap into how strong a jedi is. And even with it, its based off a ratio. Thats how they could tell he had more than Yoda from just a simple blood sample. So even being half the man, he still has the ratio of them, and is still bigger than Yoda. But that wasnt mentioned in the OT so i CHOOSE not to have that be a factor. All that was, was a way to put a scientific explanation to something far beyond science. The way Yoda descibed the force was the best. So i personally dont think having less body mass has anything to do with power...."judge me by my size do you?" And PVS im agreeing with you 100%. I just dont want to seem like im trying to discredit what Ush was saying.

And remember there is a diffeence between beating someone and killing them. Sidious beats Yoda but doesnt kill him.

im not saying that ush is wrong...i'm just saying its up in the air at this point.

but i really think the way im describing could happen as well.
the reason i think this is continuity. in ep4, kenobi sees luke,
he sees that luke sees him dueling with vader. he orchestrated it
that way. the mission was not to defeat vader, but make sure luke sees ben defeated. i can see something very similar in ep3. although mace will seem to get the better of palps, we will notice that palps doesnt get so much as a scratch. kinda like muhammed ali's rope a dope. just to keep him busy until the golden child shows up. once anakin shows up, i think we will see a smirk on palps' face and he will allow mace to get the better of him...however still not leaving so much as a scratch.

thats what im putting my money on.
if i loose, i loose.

I totally agree with you Ush.
Sometimes the simplest explanation comes from GL himself.
We better start listening to the commentary on all the DVD's more carefully (although Lucas contradicts himself from time to time)!

ah yes, lucas' infinate contraditions. just like a woman, GL always reserves the right to change his mind...and oh does he change it.

at PVS

okay, try this on.....the prophecy doesn't say that no one other than the chosen one will be CAPABLE of interrupting the chain of events, just that they WON'T.....and what happens?, mace is CAPABLE of besting palpatine, but DOESN'T in the end, while anakin, by the end of the saga, would seem to be very unlikely to pose a danger to palpatine, but does.....this is the nature of prophecy, it's inevitable however unlikely.....

also keep in mind that palpatine's other major power, besides persuasion, is seeing into the future (see the conceptual link to the way a "prophecy" works).....i would assume that he forsees himself losing the duel, but somehow still ending up on top, or even going as far as to "see" anakin's intervention.....and actually has the brass to go into battle knowing that he's taking a risk, but having forseen that the risk will pay off.....so he is genuinely losing, yet his losing is simultaneously a winning move....as you say, a disgusting amount of self confidence (which will eventually be his undoing).....and by the way, i don't have a side on this, i think you both make interesting points, some that could possibly even co-exsist....

i've also been thinking that it could be kinda interesting if we're never quite sure whether palpatine is playing a game or not....and 10 years from now people would still be debating it, with just a few hints either way to keep it interesting.....

No, that is just you backtracking to change the focus of what I was saying. That quote was not given in support of the main point. I gave it to counter YOUR idea that the Force was already unbalanced by the time of the Mace/Palpatine fight. That quote proves, as far as GL is concerned, that it was not.

So as the Force is not yet unbalanced, the Prophecy has not yet become a certainty, and so it is not necessary for it to be the Chosen One that kills Palps.

As soon as that unbalance has occured, only THEN is the Chosen One actually needed.

Any other option destroys the drama of the Prequel Films- one of the whole themes of which is "How does Sidious manage to defeat the entire Jedi Order?". This is actually shown in entertaining detail. If the actual ansdwer is "because it is physically impossible for anyone to stop him" you have just invalidated that entire plot. Luckily this is not so. Sidious is not magically unstoppable at this point- it gets EFFORT for him to pull it off, and it is not at all weird if Mace comes close to beating him.

ok fine ush, we'll see may19.

I agree. the way the PT describes the Force is pathetic. there was absolutly no need to include midchlorians at all! I agree with PVS, Lucas just makes it up as he goes along. We we never given any indication that vader was weak in the OT. much the opposite!

More to the point.Sidious is probably just playin with Mace up to a point then BAM!!! out the window.

Well guys this is what i think,

Sidoius will fight Mace and it will a short fight, Then Anakin will Burst in the Room and Sidious will turn into his Palptine Figure and Anakin will try to Help him, since Palps has been the only one giving him support and Faith untill now. But When Anakin Trys and stops Mace he will argue with him telling hes Evil, But surely the other 4 Jedis who came in with Mace and Take Anakin?

Wow, that sounds dangerously close to what preachers do on Sunday mornings. Take what is said totally out of context. What GL said was that Anakin IS THE chosen one, thats why Palps wants him. Its not until AFTER Vader needs the suit that the emporer 'realizes he didnt get what he wanted out of Vader'.

The entire purpose of the Chosen One is to bring balance, thats why he was born when he was: because it was time for the Chosen One, things were out of balance which necessitated his being born. Mace couldnt possibly stop it because A) he is not the Chosen One and B) the balance was already off.

The prophecy of the Chosen One and its fulfillment is the entire reason behind the whole saga.

Sounds right to me........

Bilbs

OK

star wars is about destiny...finding and fulfilling one's destiny.
sure, palps is mortal like everyone else, but its anakin's fate to destroy the sith. thats why mace cant defeat palps and the reason anakin was concieved by the force. if not, then why else?

but yeah, i think we will see a smirk on palp's face ala ben kenobi in ep4. we shall see in 3 months

bicker bicker... the truth is noone really knows what is going to transpire outside of the concrete facts mentioned in the ot... of course those facts were spoken mostly by an old man who is from a certain point of view a f@#$ing liar... and by the way, so what if george lucas is making this s&*t up as he goes along.. it is his story to tell and he's kept you bastards waiting in the wings all of these years for the completion of this masterpiece.. like it or not you will all buy your tickets like me for the show due to come out this may and then you will only have to discuss what you did or did not like about it... what i really cant stand is that most people think that star wars is only special to them and that only they can decipher all of theese cryptic facts about it to give them some divine understanding as to how it is going to end.... dont forget that theese threads live on and are not deleted after the film is released... there will be quite a few of you that will eat a big slice of the crow pie i have been cooking for months...discuss theese topics if you wish but please dont act as if you know it all about starwars because you probably dont know sh@t..........

clapping

Oh so sorry to offend, or do you not understand teh meaning of forums such as these? If not, let me enlighten you, ITS FOR SPECULATION. We actually enjoy coming up with theories and discussing them. Thats what the whole thing is about so if that is such an assault on your senses, find yourself a nice knitting website and let us have our fun.

I still feel that GL'll probably stick by the Anakin-less-powerful-after-his
little-accident-so-Palps-tries-to-replace-him-with-Luke bit.....
But then I actually like crow pie....

well guess we should just ask raz to close the ep3 forum down.
no purpose in debating star wars since you seem to have a problem with it.
hey, i have an idea, either put your ideas on the table or stfu. you have no humble pie to sell. if ush is correct, then i will gladly eat the humble pie HE serves me.

unless you have something to contribute, you really have no say in it.
so either put your ideas forth or quit playing 'holier than thou' and bashing on members, because its pretty lame

Thats the PVS we all know & love!!!

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/moresmilies/whip.gif

OK Ush, if you wanna quote people, how bout this......"Remember OB1, if the prophecy is true, then only your apprentice can bring the force, BACK in to balance." Key word...."BACK" so wy say "back into balance" if its not already unbalanced? Sorry Ush, but the fact is that the force is not in balance in Ep2...so there's no way it can be in balance in Ep3..... .....oh, btw...."the darkside clouds EVEYTHING.", Yoda.....that sounds pretty onesided to me, and if something is one sided, thats means unbalanced.

WooHOO!!! Go Subjekt!!!!

Push it to the limit,oooh yeah.

Yup, its official, I have a troll. Oh goodie.

SWEEEEEEEEEEET........hahahahahahahahaha
at Bilb and a most welcome speech!

thank you for pointing that out subjekt. yes, quigon senses that the force is out of balance. i believe that the sith's very existance throws the balance of the force off.

and yes, in ep2 mace and yoda declare that their ability to use the force has diminished. thats enough of a hint for me.

i think when anakin goes bad, that is what seals the deal. so long as the chosen one refuses his destiny, that balance will never be restored.

The only thing that makes me second guess myself is in ESB Palps tells Vader, "He could destroy us." and then Vader tells Luke, "You can destroy the Emporer, he has forseen it." But then i think that was ANAKIN trying to get his son to go with him. Maybe he knew what would happen in the end of ROTJ and he was just trying to side-step it....i dont know.....but i still keep with my original point......

i think vader's plan was to allow luke to kill the emporer, based on a misunderstanding...an intentional 'sin of omission' on the emporer's part.

i believe it was impossible for luke to do it...not like everyone planned anyway.
and as far as vader's ambitions...he wasnt quite up to speed with palps'
plans from what i've seen in the OT. one simple line tells me that
"he will come to me?". palps is the giver of plans, visions, and information...
where vader is on a 'need to know' basis.

i believe that palps suspected that vader's son could bring anakin
back to the good side and in turn destroy the sith by reminding anakin
of his true identity and his destiny. i believe he kept the details away from
vader and simply said "he could destroy us", to appeal to vader's love for power. it would make sense for him to do so, as vader is still evil, and wants to keep his power.

so vader secretly offers up the possability of sparing luke AND taking absolute power in the sith, based on his misunderstanding of palp's vision.

"you can destroy the emporer! he has forseen this"
well...as far as i can tell palps visions are quite clear right down to the last detail. how could he not suspect the return of anakin? of coarse he did.
"i wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear lord vader..."

so yeah, i think palps forsaw the end of RotJ and manipulated vader in an attempt to not only avoid his fate, but gain a new apprentice...AND get rid
of his untrustworthy half-a-man apprentice.

All UK SW fans who arent going out and getting sh1tfaced you may wanna know that Samuel L Jackson is on the PARKINSON show tonight....he prob wont say much but i guess well get something and if he isnt sayin anythin EP3 wise theres always JLOs ass to look at as shes on too.

What times it on cylob?

10.15 dude.

Cool thanx, ill be watching the old silver haired devils interviewing skills tonight

Cool....Cheers for the heads up.....!!

Pfft! This only takes a moderate amount of logic to understand. Before you try and be so smug- do your research.

The Prophecy states the Force WILL BECOME unbalanced. And if it does, the Chosen One can restore it. Mace Windu is stating that if the Prophecy is correcxt, ther force will become unbalanced, and the Chosen One will restore it. He does not say it is certain that the Oprhecy is so. Just that if it is, they need him.

Proof for this? GL's own words. GL has directly stated that the Council knows that the Balance is slipping and will slip further, as said in the Orophecy, but the Prophecy also says the Balance can be latr restored.

And I will remind you that George Lucas has also directly stated that the Force does not go out of balance until AFTER Anakin is taken over by dark forces. This does not happen until the end of Episode III.

So before you start being so triumphant... do some damn research. You are wrong on this one.

Hey Ush, could you provide an article, or link that would help enlighten me as to Lucas' opinion?
Because, IMHO, it just seems like the force is already out of balance in favor of the darkside. If it wasn't, how would Sidious be able to lie to the Jedi council face to face without their knowledge? How would the clones have been ordered without the Jedi knowing?

Do please ^^^

First off, watch you tounge with me boy. And i just watched the entire OT Bonus DVD, and NOWHERE did i hear him say that. Im going off WHAT WAS SAID, not something that i wanted to just imply. He said BACK into balance....no more, no less.

"I thnk its time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished." "only the dark lord of the sith knows of our WEAKNESS" How the hell is that not unbalanced? Im sorry Ushm but is in fact you who are wrong.

Ya know, ive noticed something here. Everytime theres a debate and one side is wrong, once they realize that they are wrong, theyre so damn quick to yell out "CONFIRMED" or "GL SAID SO". Its merely a way to try to save face, and win an argument. Hell, ill admit ive done it. Its just petty to me. So find something more solid than, "GL said so" and post it on here, or a link, or something.....

only if you love SW that much...

^^^......what???.....

Good point, but I don't think so, because I think that Anakan was already apart of the dark side at the start of 3, but I think Sidious simply beats Yoda because either Yoda's old and he can't be arsed, and plus Yoda is a small green shit who just aimlessly jumps everywhere and does nothing.

I hope you realize in the picture of the lightsabers, you've missed out Yoda's small lightsabers, and Count Dooku's bent lightsaber as well.

^^^^ i hope you realize that i didnt make that pic and any errors in said pic are out of my control. Im not gonna go spend $200 on photoshop so i can change someone else's picture. And the reason it dosnt have Yoda's or Dooku's, is because it was released after TPM.....logic man, logic.....

But if anyone wants to fix it, feel free....you'll also notice that Mace's name is on the wrong saber.

All right fair enough but you said that the pictures were released after Episode I, if that's true then how do you know what Mace's lightsaber was because I don't think you saw Mace's lightsaber in Episode I?