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So who are the top 10-20 most powerful characters in Bleach?

Yamamoto
Ichigo
Aizen
Shusui
Starrk
Barragan
Unohana
Ukitake
Yoruichi
Urahara
Ulquiorra
Shinji
Nel
Harribel
Byakuya
Kenpachi
Nnoitra
Grimmjow

Give or take.

Switch Nel for Hitsugaya. awesome

Or Gin.

I like Q99's list, however, we frankly don't know enough about Unohana or Yoruichi to be all that accurate. I personally have the feeling that Uno may be above Shusui

Yoruichi fights at pretty high level even without zanpakuto, and she has to have bankai, hence my rating up there.

Unohana, yea, but everyone seems to act like she's in the Shusui/Ukitaki tier.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Switch Nel for Hitsugaya. awesome

Or Gin.

Nel was stronger than Nnoitra, so I think that's where she goes.

I'd put Gin and Hitsugaya on the end of the list, in that order. Even though Harribel was imprisoned by Toshiro's ice, she was merely trapped and not hurt, meaning he didn't really have enough power to cause her much injury. He's kinda inconstant in his performance because he makes mistake too.

Wouldn't Ichigo be more powerful than Yamamoto if you take power-scaling into consideration?

Well I can't really see Nel above Nnoitra either. I mean she did stomp him unreleased for about 10 seconds but his release should've outclassed hers IMO.

Originally posted by Q99
Yoruichi fights at pretty high level even without zanpakuto, and she has to have bankai, hence my rating up there.

Nel was stronger than Nnoitra, so I think that's where she goes.

I'd put Gin and Hitsugaya on the end of the list, in that order. Even though Harribel was imprisoned by Toshiro's ice, she was merely trapped and not hurt, meaning he didn't really have enough power to cause her much injury. He's kinda inconstant in his performance because he makes mistake too.

For some reason though I feel like Urahara is probably stronger than her...probably. mmm

He didn't even release though.

Well that's kinda not a good reason. Her being trapped still meant she basically lost. Though this was mostly due to ERPS rendering her best attacks worthless.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
For some reason though I feel like Urahara is probably stronger than her...probably. mmm

He didn't even release though.

Well that's kinda not a good reason. Her being trapped still meant she basically lost. Though this was mostly due to ERPS rendering her best attacks worthless.

Well if she's supposed to be an elder captain, then she probably is above Yoruichi.

He also tanked all of her attacks

She still should've been able to blitz him/overpower him/blast powerful cero at him. She kind of sucked for a no# 3 espada looking back at it now.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Well if she's supposed to be an elder captain, then she probably is above Yoruichi.

He also tanked all of her attacks

She still should've been able to blitz him/overpower him/blast powerful cero at him. She kind of sucked for a no# 3 espada looking back at it now.

Was not talking about Unohana.

Yep.

To be fair, she did blitz him. He just had his substitution jutsu ready. And eh...true. She really should not be considered above Ulquiorra. Then again, the rankings are based off of Reitsu or something.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
She still should've been able to blitz him/overpower him/blast powerful cero at him. She kind of sucked for a no# 3 espada looking back at it now. Nel was an original espada, meaning her number wasn't really accurate when compared to the newer ones. She would most likely be on Grimmjow's level rather than Tia's.

Damn you pronouns! *shakes fist*

Ranking is supposed to be overall power, but with his second release Ulq punches above his class.

Harribel seems like she'd be overall stronger than Toshiro, she'd probably just laugh at Luppi's attack that wounded him, but his ultimate attack is rather badass.

it's clear that Hitsugaya is below Tia. It took him and two 2nd's to fight her and she still had the upper hand.

Harribel is stronger the Hitsugaya. He just has a one hit kill(or at least, trap) move that really can't be beat.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Was not talking about Unohana.

Yep.

To be fair, she did blitz him. He just had his substitution jutsu ready. And eh...true. She really should not be considered above Ulquiorra. Then again, the rankings are based off of Reitsu or something.

Unohana/Urahara...it's easy to get those mixed up

But even by that standard, Halibel's reiatsu wasn't all that impressive. She also wasn't very impressive unreleased either considering her inferior(Ulquiorra) tanked Ichigo's strongest shot unreleased.

Q99: Well he did have to kind of "Kirin" prep his strongest attack, which was made considerably easier due to Halibel herself.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Harribel is stronger the Hitsugaya. He just has a one hit kill(or at least, trap) move that really can't be beat. can't be beat, by whom? it's very likely that any of the top 7 on Q99's list could bust out of that trap... or not get trapped in the first place. Honestly, Tia got the shit end of the stick with that matchup, Hitsu would have died had his opponent been any of the other Espada. He got extremely lucky that his opponent used water attacks.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Unohana/Urahara...it's easy to get those mixed up not really. one has breasts.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
For some reason though I feel like Urahara is probably stronger than her...probably. mmm

He didn't even release though.

Yoruichi used to be his boss, though.

And he used Shikai, while she fought unarmed with just some guards.

I think, with prep he may be stronger, but sans prep she is.

Originally posted by Q99
Yoruichi used to be his boss, though.

And he used Shikai, while she fought unarmed with just some guards.

I think, with prep he may be stronger, but sans prep she is.

And now he is effectively her boss.

And kido. Not that it means anything. All Kenpachi does is fight with his Shikai and he is lolstrong.

I can agree to this I guess. And I personally think Gin should be stronger than her. His bankai is hax and all.

His bankai didn't seem too hax- if you keep out of the path of it's stab, and can block it's sweeps, you're good. Ichigo was defending pretty well.

Honestly I find it a bit hard to rate him.

Yamamoto
Aizen/Ichigo/Isshin
Shunsui
Ukitaki/Stark
Barragan
Ulquiorra/Wonderweis
Harribel/Nel/Kenpachi/Byakuya
Hitsugya/Soi-Fon/Shinji/Hachi/Gin
Noitra/Grimmjow/Zomari/Komamura/Tousen/Kensei/Hisagi
Rose/Love/Szayel/Ikkaku/Yumachika/Mayuri
Izuru/Renji/Rukia
Matsumoto/Chad/Uruyu

Yoruichi-while probably up there, not enough known about her.
Urahara-same as Youichi, but I'm guessing he's more powerful than we think.
Unohana-same as above

Any others I left off are about the same s the last few names on the list.

Wonderwiess? lolno.

We know more about Yoruichi and Urahara than Isshin though. :/

Originally posted by marwash22
Wonderwiess? lolno.

Vasto Lorde. Speedblitzed Jushiro. Used a scream to destroy Hitsugaya's most powerful Ice Construct.
And if you believe he fought Kensei & Mashiro, he beat them without much difficulty.

EDIT:
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
We know more about Yoruichi and Urahara than Isshin though. :/

Isshin went toe-to-toe with an Aizen that owned most of the other Captains and Vizards, and this was after he had regained his powers after using FGT.

Now that I think about it, I don't know why I put him at #10 when he should be much higher. The dude could use FGT, and his regular GT makes Bankai Ichigo's GT look like crap.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Isshin went toe-to-toe with an Aizen that owned most of the other Captains and Vizards, and this was after he had regained his powers after using FGT.

It's precisely due to the low number of feats he has, that I place him at #10. He should be more powerful than Starrk & Shunsui. Shunsui has hax on his side though.

And was having help from the other two I mentioned, who have more feats to their name.

Dun care.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And was having help from the other two I mentioned, who have more feats to their name.

Dun care.

Yeah, after Aizen transformed, at which point, a case can be made for him being >= Yamamoto.
Guess who went toe-to-toe with Aizen before the transformation, and who b****-slapped him through several buildings with one finger.

I edited again.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Vasto Lorde. Speedblitzed Jushiro. Used a scream to destroy Hitsugaya's most powerful Ice Construct.
And if you believe he fought Kensei & Mashiro, he beat them without much difficulty. no.

Mashiro thoroughly dominated him without her zanpakuto while not even taking him seriously, then her mask timed out and he sucker punched her in the eye. Kensei then steps in and thoroughly dominates Wonderweiss until... what happened exactly after that is a mystery to me 'cause the shit just ended with no explanation. we're supposed to believe a captain got owned off panel/screen?

The only vizard captain* who showed anything in that fight was Shinji.

Rose, Love, and Kensei didn't do much at all.


*Hachigen being a non-captain.

Originally posted by marwash22
no.

Mashiro thoroughly dominated him without her zanpakuto while not even taking him seriously, then her mask timed out and he sucker punched her in the eye. Kensei then steps in and thoroughly dominates Wonderweiss until... what happened exactly after that is a mystery to me 'cause the shit just ended with no explanation. we're supposed to believe a captain got owned off panel/screen?


Right, and despite them 'dominating' him, they barely hurt him.
He didn't have, or rather, couldn't have had help from anyone except Aizen, so yes, said captain got owned off-panel.
That, or Aizen saved him using his hypnosis, in which case, I could easily make the argument that the entire thing was hypnosis, seeing as Wonderweiss should be a lot more powerful than that fight made him out to be.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yeah, after Aizen transformed, at which point, a case can be made for him being >= Yamamoto.
Guess who went toe-to-toe with Aizen before the transformation, and who b****-slapped him through several buildings with one finger.

I edited again.

Not Urahara. He was too busy beating the shit out of him with Kido and being so much faster than Aizen. :O

Originally posted by marwash22
no.

Mashiro thoroughly dominated him without her zanpakuto while not even taking him seriously, then her mask timed out and he sucker punched her in the eye. Kensei then steps in and thoroughly dominates Wonderweiss until... what happened exactly after that is a mystery to me 'cause the shit just ended with no explanation. we're supposed to believe a captain got owned off panel/screen?

Si. Would not be the first time a Captain class fighter got pwned off camera.

Wonderweiss blitzed Ukitake, who is one of the stronger captains and was keeping up with Starrk. And he was commented on being Vasto level. He should by all rights be considered above Grimmjow if nothing else.

My list is very similar to DP's:



0. Urahara (with Prep)
1. Ichigo (post Jinzen)
2. Aizen (Hogyoku transformations)
3. Yamamoto
4. Ulquiorra (Segunda Etapa)
5. Isshin
6. Unohana
7. Shunsui
8. Starrk
9. Baraggan
10. Ukitake
11. Harribel
12. Shinji
13. Yoruichi
14. Gin
15. Kenpachi
16. Nnoitra
17. Grimmjow
18. Soi-Fon
19. Byakuya





Starrk pulled out his best with Shunsui still holding onto a "tech" that would supposedly increase his power by "10 times". That's a major power difference. No idea why Starrk was holding back.

And how could you guys forget Kenpachi? He's supposedly on par with Byakuya and he beat Nnoitra fair and square withOUT bankai. Imagine Kenpachi or Yamamoto with Bankai?

Originally posted by dadudemon
My list is very similar to DP's:



0. Urahara (with Prep)
1. Ichigo (post Jinzen)
2. Aizen (Hogyoku transformations)
3. Yamamoto
4. Ulquiorra (Segunda Etapa)
5. Isshin
6. Unohana
7. Shunsui
8. Starrk
9. Baraggan
10. Ukitake
11. Harribel
12. Shinji
13. Yoruichi
14. Gin
15. Kenpachi
16. Nnoitra
17. Grimmjow
18. Soi-Fon
19. Byakuya





Starrk pulled out his best with Shunsui still holding onto a "tech" that would supposedly increase his power by "10 times". That's a major power difference. No idea why Starrk was holding back.

And how could you guys forget Kenpachi? He's supposedly on par with Byakuya and he beat Nnoitra fair and square withOUT bankai. Imagine Kenpachi or Yamamoto with Bankai?

^ Yeah, your top 5 is nearly the same as my top 5, and I did not include Unohana as she's featless as far as Combat is concerned. Even though I placed Isshin at #10, I put him above Ulquiorra based on the fact that he was going toe-to-toe with pre-transformation Aizen, and in the past, he too had FGT, though it wouldn't be as powerful as Ichigo's was.

There were too many people around. What exactly his Bankai does is unknown, but given that Bankai is typically an expansion of the Shikai form, in all likelihood, it would increase Katen Kyokotsu's radius of effect, and nearly everyone on the battlefield would have to play by its rules. At least that is what I think.

Kenpachi's a one-trick pony. estahuh

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not Urahara. He was too busy beating the shit out of him with Kido and being so much faster than Aizen. :O

Si. Would not be the first time a Captain class fighter got pwned off camera.

Wonderweiss blitzed Ukitake, who is one of the stronger captains and was keeping up with Starrk. And he was commented on being Vasto level. He should by all rights be considered above Grimmjow if nothing else.
Nah. Urahara was busy coming up with a strat for Aizen, and then f***ing Yoruichi like the bawss he is. awesome

In all seriousness, Urahara could beat anyone short of Hogyoku Aizen & Jinzen Ichigo with those Reiatsu-blockers of his. Even Yamamoto and H2 Ichigo would be destroyed by them, but whether Urahara could get them on those two is another matter.

Not only was he commented on being Espada Level by SS, but given his shape as a hollow, he was a Vasto Lorde before he became an Arrancar. Espada #1-3 were confirmed Vasto Lorde. So yeah.

Plus he was on his knees in front of Aizen, so is it any wonder that Aizen chose him? vin

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
^ Yeah, your top 5 is nearly the same as my top 5, and I did not include Unohana as she's featless as far as Combat is concerned. Even though I placed Isshin at #10, I put him above Ulquiorra based on the fact that he was going toe-to-toe with pre-transformation Aizen, and in the past, he too had FGT, though it wouldn't be as powerful as Ichigo's was.

There were too many people around. What exactly his Bankai does is unknown, but given that Bankai is typically an expansion of the Shikai form, in all likelihood, it would increase Katen Kyokotsu's radius of effect, and nearly everyone on the battlefield would have to play by its rules. At least that is what I think.

Kenpachi's a one-trick pony. estahuh

Isshin has to be that high because he did go toe-2-toe with Aizen (and even had him significantly outclassed until Aizen transformed) and Aizen was supposedly better than any of the Espada.

Unohana gets her rank based on her stats AND the fact that Joshiro is supposed to fear Unohana's strength. She has the implied power that is second only to Yamamoto and Aizen. That's enough for me because all my evidence is "canon" and none of it conjecture.

We have no idea what his Bankai would be. Look at Ichigo's: it is the exact opposite in form to his shikai. It is also in no way related to his shikai form. So Ichigo is an exception.

There's no reason to assume on what exactly his Bankai would be. Look at Soi Fon's: the exact opposite of what her Shikai is: loud, big, cumbersome, and has a very larger explosion and destruct radius.


There's just no way to be sure. Sure, you may think of many examples of expanding bankais (Renji, Byakuya, Toshiro, Fox Face, Gin, and Ikkaku off the top of my head) but I don't think we can conclude on the nature of Ukitake's or Shunsui's bankais, just yet. Not even Yamamoto's but most likely Yamamoto's is just more FARS and SPLOSIONS!

Originally posted by dadudemon
Isshin has to be that high because he did go toe-2-toe with Aizen (and even had him significantly outclassed until Aizen transformed) and Aizen was supposedly better than any of the Espada.

Unohana gets her rank based on her stats AND the fact that Joshiro is supposed to fear Unohana's strength. She has the implied power that is second only to Yamamoto and Aizen. That's enough for me because all my evidence is "canon" and none of it conjecture.

We have no idea what his Bankai would be. Look at Ichigo's: it is the exact opposite in form to his shikai. It is also in no way related to his shikai form. So Ichigo is an exception.

There's no reason to assume on what exactly his Bankai would be. Look at Soi Fon's: the exact opposite of what her Shikai is: loud, big, cumbersome, and has a very larger explosion and destruct radius.


There's just no way to be sure. Sure, you may think of many examples of expanding bankais (Renji, Byakuya, Toshiro, Fox Face, Gin, and Ikkaku off the top of my head) but I don't think we can conclude on the nature of Ukitake's or Shunsui's bankais, just yet. Not even Yamamoto's but most likely Yamamoto's is just more FARS and SPLOSIONS!

Yep. In the past, he also had access to FGT.

Not only do I take databook stats with a grain of salt, but they are now outdated.
Yeah, Shunsui is scared of her, but then again, Unohana can scare the shit out of anyone even while smiling at them. Ergo, I think she could be anywhere between Yamamoto and Gin.

Only Soi-Fon's is a complete turn around from her Shikai, but it is still an expansion. Ichigo's Bankai on the other hand isn't a turn around. It still uses his Spiritual power and converts it into a powerful attack. Only reason it is different from other Bankais is due to the fact that Bankais are normally expansions of power, whereas his Bankai is a compression of all that power. Its effect is still the same, albeit upgraded. That compression is the reason he can move fast enough to blitz Byakuya easily.
So yeah, while we definitely do not know what Shunsui's Bankai can do, odds of it being a massive expansion of his Shikai are very high, when you take into account most other Bankais, and Ukitake's statement concerning the use of Shunsui's Bankai.

I have no idea why any of you are adding Unohana. She's done nothing, wait tl she actually fights, which she will in this last arc.

I have no idea why you put Isshin on the list but not Urahara/Yoruichi. Both have done considerably more.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Harribel is stronger the Hitsugaya. He just has a one hit kill(or at least, trap) move that really can't be beat.

He had PIS on his side more like. I swear that fricking Ice-clone bullshit is almost as bad as the Great Snake Escape. Nor does it make sense that despite Hitsugaya losing even before her Ressureccion that he's somehow able to keep up with her enhanced speed afterwards even though he had to use the bullshit ice-clone thing to avoid getting blitzed the first time. Why the heck didn't she just blitz him again? Argh, screw Tossero!

I assumed he was doing what Soi-fon did and was holding back to judge her strength. :O

Nah, theres nothing suggesting that.

Though that thing with Soi-fon was also dumb. Hold back to gain knowledge usefull in later battles? Theres probably not going to be later battles ya bimbo! All the highest ranking members of both sides are present in battle at that point, the war was going to end that day pretty much regardless. And even then given how important that fight was, holding back in it is once again, completely ****ing retarded.

There was nothing that suggested creating an Ice clone was one of his moves either. haermm

Even came with blood.

And could talk.

I thought he used it at the last second, like Substitution jutsu. Ah well.

It makes substitution jutsu look downright reasonable and not cheap at all. I still don't know how it worked. It looked like some kind of reflecting mirror but how does that even begin to make sense if Halibel cut it in half? Its the epitomy of ass-pull imo. I'm frankly shocked TVtropes doesn't have it listed. Shocked!

Maybe you're the only one who cared...you *****. uhuh

Originally posted by Thoren
I have no idea why any of you are adding Unohana. She's done nothing, wait tl she actually fights, which she will in this last arc. Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I have no idea why you put Isshin on the list but not Urahara/Yoruichi. Both have done considerably more.

So it's settled then. My list trumps everyone else's lists since it lacks Unohana, and contains Yoruichi & Urahara. awesome

You may all bow down to me now. excellent

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I have no idea why you put Isshin on the list but not Urahara/Yoruichi. Both have done considerably more.
I wouldn't say considerably.

Isshin trashed Aizen, Uraharra kido'd Aizen, while not effective at first, in the end he proved to be great at kido, but he didn't put up that great of a fight. Yoruichi beat Soi-Fon, which isn't that impressive, and I was hoping she'd have ***** kicked Aizen, but was handly defeated.

I'm waiting to see more of their abilities to rank them properly.

I just found a site that has every episode. They don't sell the entire series in stores, so I had to cheat. I'll buy the rest when they come out, as I am collecting the entire series, but I just couldn't wait that long.

It's not a bad site either.

Candyman technically killed Aizen twice. baller status.

Isshin is much stronger than Yoruichi and Urahara.

Based on what? Getting up first after being one shot like the others?

Based on tooling base-form Aizen like he was a chump.

That too though, yeah.

Go back and reread it. Urahara schooled Aizen much more.

Yoruichi used armor and Urahara used shikai... Isshin was fighting at base so I'd say he's above both of them.

edit: scratch that. did he use gt at base?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Go back and reread it. Urahara schooled Aizen much more. Not physically.

And, yeah, Isshin was not even using his Shikai.

Plus he knows the Final Getsuga Tensho.

Urahara schooling Aizen couldn't have been done w/o Isshin though

I find it funny how Ryuken ins't even an honorable mention or even an unknown.

Originally posted by marwash22
Candyman technically killed Aizen twice. baller status.

Exactly why he's > Dangai Ichigo on the official fan list. awesome

Originally posted by marwash22
Yoruichi used armor and Urahara used shikai... Isshin was fighting at base so I'd say he's above both of them.

edit: scratch that. did he use gt at base?

He used GT, a Shikai tech. Don't think he could use it unless his Zanpakuto was in Shikai mode.
On a tangent though, his GT made Bankai Ichigo's GT look like fluffy shit.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Go back and reread it. Urahara schooled Aizen much more.

And your case for Yoruichi is?

Urahara is easily > Isshin if we include prep and items.
Isshin is still stronger in direct combat than Yoruichi.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Urahara schooling Aizen couldn't have been done w/o Isshin though

I find it funny how Ryuken ins't even an honorable mention or even an unknown.

I take it you missed my list brah.

Originally posted by marwash22
Yoruichi used armor and Urahara used shikai... Isshin was fighting at base so I'd say he's above both of them.

edit: scratch that. did he use gt at base?

And a sword. :O

Originally posted by NemeBro
Not physically.

And, yeah, Isshin was not even using his Shikai.

Plus he knows the Final Getsuga Tensho.

No one physically beat Barragan either now did they?

Whoop. Urahara initially pwned him without swinging his sword. :O

And Urahara knows the substitution jutsu.



She fought Aizen without her sword. F*ck not using Shikai, she fought a living god with her bare hands.

And skill. But I'm not really seeing it. Sure, his Getsuga was impressive I guess.

http://images.wikia.com/bleach/en/images/f/f0/IsshinGetsugaTensho.gif

But I prefer...

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101214193339/bleach/en/images/2/2c/HiasobiBenihimeJuzutsunagi.gif

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I find it funny how Ryuken ins't even an honorable mention or even an unknown. what has he done to garner any mention?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I take it you missed my list brah.

Yeah I didn't see it at first..my bad

Originally posted by marwash22
what has he done to garner any mention?
Tell Isshin he's a bad dad while shooting his son in the chest along with attacking his dreams for the sake of putting him down. Bad Parenting=Power right?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Whoop. Urahara initially pwned him without swinging his sword. :O so did Isshin... with a finger.

Originally posted by marwash22
so did Isshin... with a finger.

Nah bro. He was swinging most of the time. vin

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

She fought Aizen without her sword. F*ck not using Shikai, she fought a living god with her bare hands.

And skill. But I'm not really seeing it. Sure, his Getsuga was impressive I guess.

http://images.wikia.com/bleach/en/images/f/f0/IsshinGetsugaTensho.gif

But I prefer...

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101214193339/bleach/en/images/2/2c/HiasobiBenihimeJuzutsunagi.gif

That's your case? Seriously? Yeah, Yoruichi is inferior to Isshin.
Bare hands? Lulz. Then Isshin fought a living god with a butter knife, and did more damage to him with one slice than Yoruichi ever did with multiple punches. 313

GT did more damage. That attack, while awesome, was just a diversion. You can tell by how Aizen had his "OH SHIT, EVERYTHING'S BACKWARDS" face on when Isshin used GT. awesome

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That's your case? Seriously? Yeah, Yoruichi is inferior to Isshin.
Bare hands? Lulz. Then Isshin fought a living god with a butter knife, and did more damage to him with one slice than Yoruichi ever did with multiple punches. 313

GT did more damage. That attack, while awesome, was just a diversion.

You're implying that the boxing gloves she was wearing is a more potent weapon than a Zanpakuto, sealed or not. This is silly.

And looked more impressive. :O

that attack kisuke used probably would have merc'd anyone who didn't have a power gem in their chest.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
You're implying that the boxing gloves she was wearing is a more potent weapon than a Zanpakuto, sealed or not. This is silly.

And looked more impressive. :O

Bare hands are more impressive than a butter knife. Is that seriously what you got from my post? Re-read my post.
Either way, Isshin is still > Yoruichi regardless of what they used. You bring her Bankai to the table, and I bring Isshin's overall superior physical stats, Bankai & FGT. I still win. 313

Big whoop.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Bare hands are more impressive than a butter knife. Is that seriously what you got from my post? Re-read my post.
Either way, Isshin is still > Yoruichi regardless of what they used. You bring her Bankai to the table, and I bring Isshin's overall superior physical stats, Bankai & FGT. I still win. 313

Big whoop.

Nah.
Whoa what? Where are you getting these superior stats from? Strength I'll give you(though Yoruichi is still capable of similar feats with just her fists) but speed? Kido? Intelligence? I'm not seeing anything to suggest he is better at those. And sweet, FGT. That move where he has to set and go into his sword, thus being open to attack.

>_>

I'm not saying Isshin is strictly weaker than them. Personally, I'd consider them to be on a relatively equal level. If I had to pick a strongest of the three, it would be Urahara, since Aizen seems to consider him more of a threat.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nah.
Whoa what? Where are you getting these superior stats from? Strength I'll give you(though Yoruichi is still capable of similar feats with just her fists) but speed? Kido? Intelligence? I'm not seeing anything to suggest he is better at those. And sweet, FGT. That move where he has to set and go into his sword, thus being open to attack.

>_>

I'm not saying Isshin is strictly weaker than them. Personally, I'd consider them to be on a relatively equal level. If I had to pick a strongest of the three, it would be Urahara, since Aizen seems to consider him more of a threat.

Feats.
Not really. She needs Shunko and/or that Armor to dish out the kind of strength that rivals what Aizen & Isshin can do. Isshin can do with one finger what she needs armor and fists to do.
I'll give you Kido, if only because she knows Shunko. Hasn't demonstrated any actual Kido though.
Speed's hers too obviously.
Seen nothing to suggest she is more intelligent than Isshin in combat. On the overall though, she probably is.
She's not as durable as he is.
She doesn't have as much Reiatsu as he does in all likelihood, and a fight between Shinigami is a clash of Reiatsu. kruemelmonsteryn0
No, you have it confused with Jinzen. Not like Yoruichi could hurt him even if he was sitting still. Yes, I too can act like a douchebag.
I mean FGT, where he simply transforms and proceeds to kill her.

Nah. Isshin taking on Aizen by himself when other captains failed miserably tells me otherwise.
Yes, I too would pick Urahara as the strongest out of those three, if only because his intelligence & tools are uber. With those tools and the right set-up, he could own Yamamoto, someone who is ridiculously beyond him in direct combat.
However, by his own admission, he would never have been able to pwn Aizen if he were his old self, unlike Isshin, who did. Ergo, Isshin's feats are superior. excellent

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Feats.
Not really. She needs Shunko and/or that Armor to dish out the kind of strength that rivals what Aizen & Isshin can do. Isshin can do with one finger what she needs armor and fists to do.
I'll give you Kido, if only because she knows Shunko. Hasn't demonstrated any actual Kido though.
Speed's hers too obviously.
Seen nothing to suggest she is more intelligent than Isshin in combat. On the overall though, she probably is.
She's not as durable as he is.
She doesn't have as much Reiatsu as he does in all likelihood, and a fight between Shinigami is a clash of Reiatsu. kruemelmonsteryn0

....Good thing she has those.
The finger was Kido.
Besides Isshin being stupid in general? :O
Speed renders durability negligable.
Probably but is a guess. Still, the superior stats he has are in strenght and possibility reitsu.


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No, you have it confused with Jinzen. Not like Yoruichi could hurt him even if he was sitting still. Yes, I too can act like a douchebag.
I mean FGT, where he simply transforms and proceeds to kill her.

Remind me what Jinzen is again. And if he had FGT on standby, why not use it on Aizen? :/

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah. Isshin taking on Aizen by himself when other captains failed miserably tells me otherwise.
Yes, I too would pick Urahara as the strongest out of those three, if only because his intelligence & tools are uber. With those tools and the right set-up, he could own Yamamoto, someone who is ridiculously beyond him in direct combat.
However, by his own admission, he would never have been able to pwn Aizen if he were his old self, unlike Isshin, who did. Ergo, Isshin's feats are superior. excellent

Aizen was also at his limit as a Shinigami, so how impressive that is is relative. And keep in mind, the Captains had been fighting a lot. Shinji was really the only one going into it fresh.

He didn't. :O

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
....Good thing she has those.
The finger was Kido.
Besides Isshin being stupid in general? :O
Speed renders durability negligable.
Probably but is a guess. Still, the superior stats he has are in strenght and possibility reitsu.

Armor isn't her standard equipment, and was given to her by Urahara.
Doubt that.
Not like Yoruichi acts any smarter than Isshin in general.
Not really.
Reiatsu is all that matters in the end as per Aizen's words.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Remind me what Jinzen is again. And if he had FGT on standby, why not use it on Aizen? :/

The move where he has to sit and go into his sword, and is open to attack.

Same reason they all didn't use Bankai.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Aizen was also at his limit as a Shinigami, so how impressive that is is relative. And keep in mind, the Captains had been fighting a lot. Shinji was really the only one going into it fresh.

He didn't. :O

Reached said limit due to Isshin's efforts.
True, but were they burned out or even exhausted to the point where we could say they were at half strength? Nah.

Yes he did.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Armor isn't her standard equipment, and was given to her by Urahara.
Doubt that.
Not like Yoruichi acts any smarter than Isshin in general.
Not really.
Reiatsu is all that matters in the end as per Aizen's words.

Shunko is.
It was.
She does.
Ya.
Aizen said that to a girl who was quite honestly almost empty in Reiatsu.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The move where he has to sit and go into his sword, and is open to attack.

Same reason they all didn't use Bankai.

That's called Meditatition you ****er. I had no idea Kubo felt the need to call it something else. haermm

Perhaps FGT can only be used once. shrug I mean otherwise, Ichigo really didn't need to learn how to do it.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Reached said limit due to Isshin's efforts.
True, but were they burned out or even exhausted to the point where we could say they were at half strength? Nah.

Yes he did.

He didn't do much though. :O
Soi-Fon certainly was. She only uses her bankai like once every 3 days and she used it twice within an hour. There was no way she should have been above half. Hitsugaya would probably have been in a similar position, though less severe. Shinsui and Shinji have less of an excuse.

He fought a tired Aizen who didn't use his Shikai. Whoop.

I love bleach arguments. ermmhappy

Personally I think Bleachers abilities are so inconsistent that getting the power levels right is all but impossible.

Yoruichi had trouble with Soifon.

Aizen blitzed Soifon, Shunsui, and Hitsugaya at the same time.

Isshin was physically dominating Aizen.

Ergo, he could physically dominate Yoruichi.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Not only do I take databook stats with a grain of salt, but they are now outdated.
Yeah, Shunsui is scared of her, but then again, Unohana can scare the shit out of anyone even while smiling at them. Ergo, I think she could be anywhere between Yamamoto and Gin.

I disagree: the databook is still fairly accurate for even current Gotei.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Only Soi-Fon's is a complete turn around from her Shikai, but it is still an expansion. Ichigo's Bankai on the other hand isn't a turn around. It still uses his Spiritual power and converts it into a powerful attack. Only reason it is different from other Bankais is due to the fact that Bankais are normally expansions of power, whereas his Bankai is a compression of all that power. Its effect is still the same, albeit upgraded. That compression is the reason he can move fast enough to blitz Byakuya easily.
So yeah, while we definitely do not know what Shunsui's Bankai can do, odds of it being a massive expansion of his Shikai are very high, when you take into account most other Bankais, and Ukitake's statement concerning the use of Shunsui's Bankai.

I disagree, here, as well. Ichigo's is the exact opposite.

Large and combersome to ultra small and compressed. Ichigo's is probably the smallest Bankai. His shikai is among the largest, however.

As far as Shunsui, it is just as likely that his Bankai is something ridiculously unrelated as it is just an expansion of the field of effect.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yoruichi had trouble with Soifon.

Aizen blitzed Soifon, Shunsui, and Hitsugaya at the same time.

Isshin was physically dominating Aizen.

Ergo, he could physically dominate Yoruichi.

Yoruichi was holding back. When she got serious she shut down Soi-Fon with ease.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
So it's settled then. My list trumps everyone else's lists since it lacks Unohana, and contains Yoruichi & Urahara. awesome

You may all bow down to me now. excellent

I say thee nay! My list is in better order and I think I have a couple you didn't and don't have a couple you did not have.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yoruichi had trouble with Soifon.

Aizen blitzed Soifon, Shunsui, and Hitsugaya at the same time.

Isshin was physically dominating Aizen.

Ergo, he could physically dominate Yoruichi.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-631-8/bleach/chapter-177.html

Yoruichi and Soi-Fon blitz Aizen.

But Neph is right, power scaling this will not work.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Shunko is.
It was.
She does.
Ya.
Aizen said that to a girl who was quite honestly almost empty in Reiatsu.

Too bad she needs both to do with two fists what Isshin does with one finger. vin
Nope. If it was, Kido goes to Isshin, not Yoruichi.
Not that I know of. It's one of her endearing qualities. Usually acting like that around others, unless she's serious and wants to kick ass. awesome
Nope.
Irrelevant. He has more reiatsu than either Yoruichi or Soi-Fon do at full power, as does Isshin, so his words still apply.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
That's called Meditatition you ****er. I had no idea Kubo felt the need to call it something else. haermm

Perhaps FGT can only be used once. shrug I mean otherwise, Ichigo really didn't need to learn how to do it.

Kubo calls it Jinzen. srug Don't worry. When I take over Bleach, I'm changing it to awesome spirit talking lap-in-sword deep meditation. excellent

Dunno. Don't even know why FGT takes away Shinigami/Hollow powers in the first place.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He didn't do much though. :O
Soi-Fon certainly was. She only uses her bankai like once every 3 days and she used it twice within an hour. There was no way she should have been above half. Hitsugaya would probably have been in a similar position, though less severe. Shinsui and Shinji have less of an excuse.

He fought a tired Aizen who didn't use his Shikai. Whoop.

Then relatively speaking, the others did not do anything.
Kay, so, other than Soi-Fon, Aizen took on Hitsugaya, Komamura, Love, Rose, Shinji, Shunsui, , and still had more than enough stamina to talk shit to Ichigo and Yamamoto, who he barely fought.

Prove he didn't use his Shikai. kruemelmonsteryn0 For all we know, Isshin has not seen the release much like his son.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree: the databook is still fairly accurate for even current Gotei.



I disagree, here, as well. Ichigo's is the exact opposite.

Large and combersome to ultra small and compressed. Ichigo's is probably the smallest Bankai. His shikai is among the largest, however.

As far as Shunsui, it is just as likely that his Bankai is something ridiculously unrelated as it is just an expansion of the field of effect.

I disagree. It was a publicity stunt. Kubo just made those stats to shut the hippies up. awesome

Cumbersome my ass. Love's Shikai is cumbersome. Ichigo's is anything but.
If it were a complete turn like Soi-Fon's, Ichigo would have a tiny-ass knife Bankai that produced small shields or shot out farts. Clearly not the case. Its effect is nothing but an upgrade of its Shikai effect, and it only slightly shrinks in size.
Odds that it upgrades his Shikai's effect and range are far, far, greater than the odds of it being something completely unrelated. Only Soi-Fon's Bankai has been a complete turnabout in terms of effect, while Ichigo's is the only one that has been a turnabout in terms of size. Compare that to the rest of the Bankais we've seen, which are all expansions in size and effect.

i have it on good authority that Shunsui's bankai is a giant Monopoly board.

Originally posted by marwash22
i have it on good authority that Shunsui's bankai is a giant Monopoly board.

My friend suggested Toon World.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Too bad she needs both to do with two fists what Isshin does with one finger. vin
Nope. If it was, Kido goes to Isshin, not Yoruichi.
Not that I know of. It's one of her endearing qualities. Usually acting like that around others, unless she's serious and wants to kick ass. awesome
Nope.
Irrelevant. He has more reiatsu than either Yoruichi or Soi-Fon do at full power, as does Isshin, so his words still apply.

So long as they're dead.
It wasn't as impressive as Shunko.
She acts playful, not really stupid. Isshin just acts really friggin goofy.
Yep.
Assumption. 313



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Kubo calls it Jinzen. srug Don't worry. When I take over Bleach, I'm changing it to awesome spirit talking lap-in-sword deep meditation. excellent

Dunno. Don't even know why FGT takes away Shinigami/Hollow powers in the first place.

Good.

Because the Shinigami didn't want the Quincy to show them up. Didn't work. Dangai Ichigo was not as cool as "F*ck you Spiritons, you all be my b!tches" Ishida.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Then relatively speaking, the others did not do anything.
Kay, so, other than Soi-Fon, Aizen took on Hitsugaya, Komamura, Love, Rose, Shinji, Shunsui, , and still had more than enough stamina to talk shit to Ichigo and Yamamoto, who he barely fought.

Prove he didn't use his Shikai. kruemelmonsteryn0 For all we know, Isshin has not seen the release much like his son.

Thought he used Kyoka Suigetsu to do that.

Because it seemed to be the real Aizen. :O

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
My friend suggested Toon World.

Shunsui is Pegasus? mmm

So long as they're dead.
It wasn't as impressive as Shunko.
She acts playful, not really stupid. Isshin just acts really friggin goofy.
Yep.
Assumption. 313

It's settled then. Isshin's middle finger = Yoruichi's amped fists. vin
True, but nearly as impressive considering it was one finger. So imagine what he could do with one hand. Assuming it is Kido of course, which I doubt it is.
Everyone in Bleach short of Aizen and Tsukishima have acted goofy at some point. Yoruichi is no exception.
Nope.
Nope, fact. 131



Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Good.

Because the Shinigami didn't want the Quincy to show them up. Didn't work. Dangai Ichigo was not as cool as "F*ck you Spiritons, you all be my b!tches" Ishida.

You mean Ichigo didn't want Ishida to show him up, which he does constantly.
Damn straight. Kubo doesn't realize that he has an uber matter manipulator in Ishida. awesome


Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Thought he used Kyoka Suigetsu to do that.

Because it seemed to be the real Aizen. :O

Pretty sure he took out Komamura, Love & Rose without it.

Most of the fight happened off-panel.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It's settled then. Isshin's middle finger = Yoruichi's amped fists. vin
True, but nearly as impressive considering it was one finger. So imagine what he could do with one hand. Assuming it is Kido of course, which I doubt it is.
Everyone in Bleach short of Aizen and Tsukishima have acted goofy at some point. Yoruichi is no exception.
Nope.
Nope, fact. 131

Nah, not equal.
I dunno what else it would be. Unless you're suggesting he flicked Aizen through those buildings. Which doesn't make sense.
Playful=/=Goofy.
Yah.
Proofs?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You mean Ichigo didn't want Ishida to show him up, which he does constantly.
Damn straight. Kubo doesn't realize that he has an uber matter manipulator in Ishida. awesome

Nah man. Orihime and Rangiku both want Ichigo, not Ishida.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Pretty sure he took out Komamura, Love & Rose without it.

Most of the fight happened off-panel.

They suck.

Yep.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nah, not equal.
I dunno what else it would be. Unless you're suggesting he flicked Aizen through those buildings. Which doesn't make sense.
Playful=/=Goofy.
Yah.
Proofs?

Yeah, my bad. Isshin's Middle Finger > Yoruichi's Amped Fists.
Can't be Kido, seeing as there was no name or anything.
Uh yes it does.
Nah.
Aizen has more reiatsu than the Espada combined. awesome

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nah man. Orihime and Rangiku both want Ichigo, not Ishida.

They both want Ichigo to leave them alone. Meanwhile, Orihime lets Ishida grope her. Rangiku only wants Gin, so meh.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
They suck.

Yep.

Not really.

Good, so you got no proof.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I disagree. It was a publicity stunt. Kubo just made those stats to shut the hippies up. awesome

When did we get the "scaredo of Unohana" stuff? When did the databooks come out? That would reveal whether or not it was a publicity stunt or something Kubo legitimately planned.

IIRC, everyone was like, "OHHH! That's why Unohana was feared by the others! Look at her stats!"

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Cumbersome my ass.

You that fat, bro? uhuh

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Love's Shikai is cumbersome. Ichigo's is anything but.

I disagree. Ichigo's sword is stupid big even by Shikai standards.




Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
If it were a complete turn like Soi-Fon's, Ichigo would have a tiny-ass knife Bankai that produced small shields or shot out farts.

That's a fairly accurate assessment of the size different, actually. That's how much of a difference Ichigo's sword is from the constant released shikai mode.

Sure, it's not as large of a difference as Soi Fon's, but they pretty much havve the same type of release...just opposite.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Clearly not the case. Its effect is nothing but an upgrade of its Shikai effect,

No, that's not correct.

The effect is compressing all of the power into a smaller area to increase Ichigo's speed and power, greatly. His "shikai" effect is just "release tons of reiatsu, dewdz and not even care!" The Bankai is the opposite.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
and it only slightly shrinks in size.

No, it greatly decreases it size. Slightly would imply the sword is pretty much the same size...but noticeably smaller. Ichigo's new bankai is many many times smaller. Maybe 2-5 dozen times smaller in volume.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Odds that it upgrades his Shikai's effect and range are far, far, greater than the odds of it being something completely unrelated.

Incorrect, odds are that the bankai upgrade will, just barely, favor the same effect of Shunsui's shikai but with greater area.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Only Soi-Fon's Bankai has been a complete turnabout in terms of effect, while Ichigo's is the only one that has been a turnabout in terms of size. Compare that to the rest of the Bankais we've seen, which are all expansions in size and effect.

That's not correct, either. You're 0/5.

Let's go down the list:

They are all fairly unique.


Soi Fon's goes from a two hit kill finger blade to a large *ss missile launcher. This does not make your case.

Mayuri's goes from a three pronged shikai sword that uses a paralyzing toxin to a GIANT ass baby-worm thingie that spews out toxic gasses. Related, but not even close to similar. It also adds tons and tons of retractable blades to the front. This does not make your case because it is much different as well as being larger. In fact, I would say Mayuri's is the most varied from sealed, to shikai, to bankai.

Toshiro's shikai looks very similar to his sealed mode. His bankai mode adds ice wings, ice tail, and a video game like counter for how much powah he has left in that mode. Additionally, his bankai mode has his sword being pretty much the same exact sword...but with a crap ton of new techs to use. So, no, the sword barely changes. It just expands the number of techs he can use and adds unnecessary flight (because he does not need flight to....fly...shunpo and all). This does not make your case.

Tosen's Shikai has ...what...two modes? His sword, itself, stays the same. They are just "techs" he gets access to in his shikai mode. The multi-sword thingie and the loud screaming noise tech. But what does his bankai do? None of those. It turns into a giant dome of blackness and surrounds the person and removes their senses except for the sense of touch so he can slowly kill them. He keeps a sealed sword while inside his bankai mode, however. So Tosen is another example of a complete non sequitur bankai mode. This does not make your case.

Kensei's is different, too. His shikai form turns into a smaller knife that has two abilities: the wind blades (typical metal wire cutting tech) and the stabby blast thingie. Do we get even bigger wind blades and a blasting "final flash" type attach in bankai mode? NOPE! It's bladed "brass knuckles" with some body armor over his arms and across his back. He basically gets something similar to what Yoruichi got from Urahara to fight Aizen with. This one is another non sequitur upgrade. This does not make your case.

Ichigo's does the opposite from Shikai to bankai, as well. This does not make your case.


6 types that do not make your case.


Moving onto your case types...

Now we get to Sajin. He is the perfect example of the case you're trying to make. He goes from smaller parts of his big avatar to the full mode of his bankai avatar. This one is the best example of the point you're trying to make. But how many have I covered so far without making your point? Exactly.

Byakuya's is similar to Sajin's in that his bankai is just an expansion of his Shikai: more tiny blades.

Gin's bankai ability is just being able to more quickly extend and retract his blade over a longer distance. It is another case of bigger bankai that supports your case.

Renji. His sword turns into a much bigger version of his shikai. This one also makes your case.

Ikkaku's is also the same example of just being a larger version of his shikai.


5 Bankais that make your case.



We can move Mayuri's over to your side, if you want, which is why I said yours is just barely in favor of having a larger effect...but that would not be accurate because the differences in abilities from Mayuri's shikai to bankai are very different. It's not an expansion of the same effect...it's different effects, altogether. So it does not make your case.


However, we can still do it 5 to 6.


That's still not making your case that it is extremely likely that Shunsui's bankai is simply an expansion of the powers. It's almost as likely that it is not. Hell, Toshiro's reach on his powers in shikai is just as far as anything else he has (except his ultimate freeze everything mode..Toshiro just adds more techs, he doesn't expand, really).

I wonder if Hisagi has a bankai? He seems like he might be hiding it if he does.

Originally posted by Thoren
I wonder if Hisagi has a bankai? He seems like he might be hiding it if he does.

I doubt it, unless it's new.

Only the div 11 people really have reason to hide bankais.

Only Ikkaku wants to hide it.

Oh and Yumichika wants to hide his kido zanpakutou.

Originally posted by dadudemon
When did we get the "scaredo of Unohana" stuff? When did the databooks come out?

IIRC, everyone was like, "OHHH! That's why Unohana was feared by the others! Look at her stats!"

'Scared of Unohana' stuff is completely irrelevant to her actual combat-related strength, unless we know for certain that she can beat the shit out of him, which we don't.

They also failed to take into account her knack for scaring the shit out of people even when she's smiling.

I mean, if you want to say she is super-strong because she is one of the oldest captains, then I'd agree with ya. Basing it off outdated stats in a handbook, and a comment from Shunsui, is not going to convince me. estahuh

Originally posted by dadudemon
You that fat, bro? uhuh

Your wife said nothing of the sort when she came over, so I take it you are even fatter than me. sneer
(I apologize in advance if that was over the line)

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. Ichigo's sword is stupid big even by Shikai standards.

Nah. Stupid big would be Love's shikai. Ichigo's is fairly big. Not cumbersome or unwieldy or slow.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that's not correct.

The effect is compressing all of the power into a smaller area to increase Ichigo's speed and power, greatly. His "shikai" effect is just "release tons of reiatsu, dewdz and not even care!" The Bankai is the opposite.

No, that's not correct either.
His Bankai does both like I said. It compresses his power to increase his speed, and it upgrades his sword's ability to "release tons of reiatsu, dewdz and not even care!"

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, it greatly decreases it size. Slightly would imply the sword is pretty much the same size...but noticeably smaller. Ichigo's new bankai is many many times smaller. Maybe 2-5 dozen times smaller in volume.

Uh, okay? I said 'slightly' as I was taking into account just how remarkably different in size Bankais are from Shikais. Zangetsu's size change isn't as drastic.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Incorrect, odds are that the bankai upgrade will, just barely, favor the same effect of Shunsui's shikai but with greater area.

Incorrect. Odds are that the Bankai upgrade will favour the same effect of Shusui's shikai, but upgrade both the potency and range.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's not correct, either. You're 0/5.

Let's go down the list:

They are all fairly unique.

Funny, because you are 0/5 so far. estahuh

We shall see.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Soi Fon's goes from a two hit kill finger blade to a large *ss missile launcher. This does not make your case.

Agreed to this.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Mayuri's goes from a three pronged shikai sword that uses a paralyzing toxin to a GIANT ass baby-worm thingie that spews out toxic gasses. Related, but not even close to similar. It also adds tons and tons of retractable blades to the front. This does not make your case because it is much different as well as being larger. In fact, I would say Mayuri's is the most varied from sealed, to shikai, to bankai.

Expansion in size: Shikai is a hand-held instrument; Bankai is a huge construct. Check.

Expansion in effect: Shikai carries a paralyzing toxin that needs to be injected via a stab. Bankai carries a lethal toxin that can be inhaled, and has numerous blades. Check.

Mayuri's Zanpakuto makes my case.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Toshiro's shikai looks very similar to his sealed mode. His bankai mode adds ice wings, ice tail, and a video game like counter for how much powah he has left in that mode. Additionally, his bankai mode has his sword being pretty much the same exact sword...but with a crap ton of new techs to use. So, no, the sword barely changes. It just expands the number of techs he can use and adds unnecessary flight (because he does not need flight to....fly...shunpo and all). This does not make your case.

Expansion in Size: Shikai is a normal sword. Bankai creates an Ice-form around Hitsugaya that is larger than his sword. Not a huge-ass increase, but still a notable increase, like Zangetsu's decrease in size. Check.

Expansion in Effect: Shikai has one tech for his Ice, and his Tenso Jurin (main ability) has an unspecified range. Bankai increases the versatility & potency of his Ice by giving him more techniques, and the range of Tenso Jurin is magnified tremendously. Check.

Another Zanpakuto that makes my case.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Tosen's Shikai has ...what...two modes? His sword, itself, stays the same. They are just "techs" he gets access to in his shikai mode. The multi-sword thingie and the loud screaming noise tech. But what does his bankai do? None of those. It turns into a giant dome of blackness and surrounds the person and removes their senses except for the sense of touch so he can slowly kill them. He keeps a sealed sword while inside his bankai mode, however. So Tosen is another example of a complete non sequitur bankai mode. This does not make your case.

Will give you this one.

Probably could formulate an argument, but I'll throw you a bone for this one. 313

Originally posted by dadudemon
Kensei's is different, too. His shikai form turns into a smaller knife that has two abilities: the wind blades (typical metal wire cutting tech) and the stabby blast thingie. Do we get even bigger wind blades and a blasting "final flash" type attach in bankai mode? NOPE! It's bladed "brass knuckles" with some body armor over his arms and across his back. He basically gets something similar to what Yoruichi got from Urahara to fight Aizen with. This one is another non sequitur upgrade. This does not make your case.

Irrelevant. The effects of Kensei's Bankai are not shown in battle. His Bankai cannot be used at all for any case.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ichigo's does the opposite from Shikai to bankai, as well. This does not make your case.

No.
His Bankai does not make my case as far as size is concerned, which is why his Bankai is unique and extraordinary. In terms of effect, it makes my case.

Originally posted by dadudemon
6 types that do not make your case.


Moving onto your case types...

No. 2 types that do not make my case, and 2 that do in fact make my case. 1 is a completely unique case and is the only unique case we'll ever likely see, given that Byakuya was surprised by its size. The last one is an unknown and is in the same boat as Shunsui's.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Now we get to Sajin. He is the perfect example of the case you're trying to make. He goes from smaller parts of his big avatar to the full mode of his bankai avatar. This one is the best example of the point you're trying to make. But how many have I covered so far without making your point? Exactly.

2 to be exact.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Byakuya's is similar to Sajin's in that his bankai is just an expansion of his Shikai: more tiny blades.

Yes.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Gin's bankai ability is just being able to more quickly extend and retract his blade over a longer distance. It is another case of bigger bankai that supports your case.

Yes.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Renji. His sword turns into a much bigger version of his shikai. This one also makes your case.

Yes.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ikkaku's is also the same example of just being a larger version of his shikai.


5 Bankais that make your case.

Yes.

No, 7 Bankais that make my case. 2 that make yours.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We can move Mayuri's over to your side, if you want, which is why I said yours is just barely in favor of having a larger effect...but that would not be accurate because the differences in abilities from Mayuri's shikai to bankai are very different. It's not an expansion of the same effect...it's different effects, altogether. So it does not make your case.

However, we can still do it 5 to 6.

Er, no. You are misunderstanding the word effect.
7 - 2 is the correct answer.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's still not making your case that it is extremely likely that Shunsui's bankai is simply an expansion of the powers. It's almost as likely that it is not. Hell, Toshiro's reach on his powers in shikai is just as far as anything else he has (except his ultimate freeze everything mode..Toshiro just adds more techs, he doesn't expand, really).

Incorrect. The ability and range of his Zanpakuto increases.
In addition, techniques count as part of the expansion. You can see the same shit happening with Byakuya, as he is able to use those millions of blades in a variety of forms for different techniques in Bankai mode, something he cannot do in Shikai.

~ Anyway, I think imma drop out of this thread. It's dead anyway. Gave my list (inherently and exponentially superior to any other list in this thread, including yours awesome), argued a little with Aura & then you, and now I shall move on.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
'Scared of Unohana' stuff is completely irrelevant to her actual combat-related strength, unless we know for certain that she can beat the shit out of him, which we don't.

No it's not: he's scared of her because she can kick his ass.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
They also failed to take into account her knack for scaring the shit out of people even when she's smiling.

Because she's a b*tch, bro. And they know about her crazy powah.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I mean, if you want to say she is super-strong because she is one of the oldest captains, then I'd agree with ya. Basing it off outdated stats in a handbook,

Hey, it's not me that says she's super strong: it's the mother****in' author, himself. She's the second most powerful captain because Aizen ain't around anymore.

Additionally, shinigami do not gain power like Ichigo, does. They gain power very very slowly. I still do not think Renji's power is all that much greater: he was able to fight on Par with Ichigo in the rescue arc and Ichigo was more strong enough to withstand blows (no homo) from a 50 foot tall giant and his giant ass ax (was it an ax?)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
and a comment from Shunsui, is not going to convince me.

Well, it should...because you love Shunsui.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Your wife said nothing of the sort when she came...

You should have just typed that. uhuh

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
...so I take it you are even fatter than me.

It's possible, but I can see my abs a bit in the mirror. Still..I've got some fat that needs to go.

(I'm winning because I took this seriously)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
(I apologize in advance if that was over the line)

You can't possibly go over the line with jokes. NEVAH! (At least, with me...I'd be careful about others because they get mad about the silliest of things).



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah. Stupid big would be Love's shikai. Ichigo's is fairly big. Not cumbersome or unwieldy or slow.

Love's Shikai is actually a bankai.

Seriously, though, Love's shikai is just as strong as most bankai's. His shikai is not stupid big, either: it's "okay, wtf is this shit" big. It falls into the category of Tsuande swinging Gamabunta's bamboo katana.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No, that's not correct either.

It is correct. No what?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
His Bankai does both like I said. It compresses his power to increase his speed, and it upgrades his sword's ability to "release tons of reiatsu, dewdz and not even care!"

Okay, so you mean what I said with some more stuff added? Because you said, "Its effect is nothing but an upgrade of its Shikai effect" which is not correct, in the slightest.

And his sword is not releasing tons of reiatsu: Ichigo is using the sword as a channeler of his own rieryoku. Basically, Ichigo pumps up his sword (no homo...or is it yes homo this time?) with his own rieryoku and basically fires it from his sword. I will agree that it increases the power of the effect of the getsuga tensho, for sure.

But it is not what you said which I responded to:

"Its effect is nothing but an upgrade of its Shikai effect"

Which we both know is not true. Since this last time, you're basically saying what I'm saying, you've conceded and that means I win. And isn't that the most important thing, here? crazy



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Uh, okay? I said 'slightly' as I was taking into account just how remarkably different in size Bankais are from Shikais. Zangetsu's size change isn't as drastic.

Okay, so we meet in the middle: your use of slightly is not correct but we can say that Ichigo's bankai is not much different in size compared to other's bankais, right?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Incorrect. Odds are that the Bankai upgrade will favour the same effect of Shusui's shikai, but upgrade both the potency and range.

Actually, odds are in favor of neither side. It's fairly 50 - 50.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Funny, because you are 5/5 so far.

We shall see.

Corrected your typo. 313



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Agreed to this.

That's, mo-fo (because you're banging my wife and she's a mom).

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Expansion in size: Shikai is a hand-held instrument; Bankai is a huge construct. Check.

Uncheck: you're arguing one of the zanpakuto's specific effects increasing in effect area, not the actual bankai itself. In Mayuri's case, he gets different special effects when going to bankai, thus not proving your point.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Expansion in effect: Shikai carries a paralyzing toxin that needs to be injected via a stab. Bankai carries a lethal toxin that can be inhaled, and has numerous blades. Check.

Mayuri's Zanpakuto makes my case.

Uncheck: you're making my case, not yours. That's a different effect. It didn't expand the area of the paralyzing toxin. If your theory on Shunsui and bankais is correct, then Mayuri's bankai should just increase the area of affect for the paralyzing toxin. That's not what happens because it gets an entirely new effect and delivery system (gas instead of sword strikes).



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Expansion in Size: Shikai is a normal sword. Bankai creates an Ice-form around Hitsugaya that is larger than his sword. Not a huge-ass increase, but still a notable increase, like Zangetsu's decrease in size. Check.

Uncheck: the sword itself stays the same size. The ice is not his bankai as he can create ice at any stage (from what I know). Additionally, the "range" of his ice attacks is the same whether in shikai or bankai because he has that ice dragon attack that looks like shenlong. lol

Additionally, if you want to include the ice wings as actually being the zanpakuto, that still does not make your case: it is not an expansion of the effect, like you're trying to make a case for, it is an expansion of the sword itself into a physically larger construct. We'll come back to this point.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Expansion in Effect: Shikai has one tech for his Ice, and his Tenso Jurin (main ability) has an unspecified range. Bankai increases the versatility & potency of his Ice by giving him more techniques, and the range of Tenso Jurin is magnified tremendously. Check.

Another Zanpakuto that makes my case.

I agree and concede this point. His zanpakuto's effect over ice increases in area. This makes part of your case. I could argue that different effects are going on here because Hyoten Hyakkaso is not Tenso Jurin...meaning, it makes my case because the "greater" effects are just different techs altogether.

But that would be dishonest of me and here's why: they are just all techs involving his manipulation of Ice. He created them or whatever. It would be the same with Yamamoto: I'd assume that his ability to create fire constructs and techs would increase in area of effect and in diversity. However, we can't be sure. But that's what it seems like with elemental zanpakuto: it just increases the power of their elemental control proving your point about effect.


Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Will give you this one.

Probably could formulate an argument, but I'll throw you a bone for this one. 313

You sonuva.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Irrelevant. The effects of Kensei's Bankai are not shown in battle. His Bankai cannot be used at all for any case.

Yes they were. Or am I missing something? His bankai got smaller. His bankai amps his power and gives him armor. Completely non-sequitur techs, too, from his bankai mode. It does not prove your point about "increasing the effects of the shikai tech" like you're trying to make with Shunsui.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No.
His Bankai does not make my case as far as size is concerned, which is why his Bankai is unique and extraordinary. In terms of effect, it makes my case.

In terms of effect, it does not. They have different effects from shikai to bankai. Different effects, entirely, to be exact (Getsuga Tensho is excluded).

If you wanted to argue that Shunsui got different techs when he goes bankai, I would agree with you and the numbers would be in your favor.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No. 2 types that do not make my case, and 2 that do in fact make my case. 1 is a completely unique case and is the only unique case we'll ever likely see, given that Byakuya was surprised by its size. The last one is an unknown and is in the same boat as Shunsui's.

No, 5 types, because I conceded one, that do not make your case.


]

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
2 to be exact.

No, 7. And you'll see why, in a bit. Just had an epiphany.



Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No, 7 Bankais that make my case. 2 that make yours.

No, 6 that make your case and 5 that make mine.

But I can argue everything from a different angle and pwn.

Watch this:


Only 4 make your case and 7 make mine. That's it: just 4.

Why? Cause Renji gets different techs when he goes bankai: blaster canon thingie and the ability to bring the segments back together right there on the spot, and Zabimaru also is no longer a bladed weapon (meaning, it changes effect, altogether, in almost all functions). That's not an increase in the effect, that's just a change of effects, altogether.

Ikkaku's shikai is a sansetsukon and naginata hybrid. When he goes bankai, it is no longer a naginata (meaning, it changes its "effect". Hell, even one of the segments becomes a kwan dao which is entirely different from a sansetsukon. Also, the main portion of effect is his bankai gets its attack power filled up : not an effect in shikai mode. So this one does not make your case, either. Just simply getting bigger is not your point: it's the special techs increasing in area of effect.





Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Er, no. You are misunderstanding the word effect.
7 - 2 is the correct answer.

I don't think so: you're stating the shunsui's special attack trick thingie, from his shikai, will expand in it's area of effect so he could not use it against Starrk because it would hurt his team mates.

So you must prove that. I'm simply showing you evidence for why your conclusion is not logically sound. You only have 4 bankais that you can use to make your case. 7 do not make your case.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Incorrect. The ability and range of his Zanpakuto increases.

If you want to move the bar/argument to something about simply increasing the attack area, then all but Ichigo's and Kensei''s bankais greatly increase their attack area. But that's not the case you're making.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
In addition, techniques count as part of the expansion. You can see the same shit happening with Byakuya, as he is able to use those millions of blades in a variety of forms for different techniques in Bankai mode, something he cannot do in Shikai.

So you're making my case, now?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
~ Anyway, I think imma drop out of this thread. It's dead anyway. Gave my list (inherently and exponentially superior to any other list in this thread, including yours awesome), argued a little with Aura & then you, and now I shall move on.

You're dropping out because you just realized the same thing I did: only 4 actually make your case. estahuh