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To the naked eye this looks like a good fight
I missed the age of Apocalypse but was there in X-factor when he arrived on the scene. I don't know as much about his offensive powers as many so everyone chime in.
I've seen him stand shoulder to shoulder with the High Evolutionary.

Thanos murders Apocalypse.

If Cable's Clone "Stryfe" could beat him...then Thanos would murder him..

my god apoc would be thanos' *****...ALL NIGHT.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
If Cable's Clone "Stryfe" could beat him...then Thanos would murder him..

hmmm........ i think Stryfe would have a good chance against Thanos, but Apoc ... not so much

I think Apoc. may well be the end of the current order of the Marvel universe. Toady he is just a traveler, much like Thanos. Both are not bound by their own lives. Apocalypse all the way...

Apoc is strong..and is getting stronger everytime I see him...maybe someday he'll get Thanos...maybe someday soon...Ahhahahhahahhahhahahahhahhahahahahha (hahhahahaahhahaha) burlybrawl

Originally posted by Wonderman
I think Apoc. may well be the end of the current order of the Marvel universe. Toady he is just a traveler, much like Thanos. Both are not bound by their own lives. Apocalypse all the way... Hmm interesting...I'd probably say you're on drugs, too.

The Mad Titan all the way.

Thanos is one of the few people who would take Apoc down no sweat...but when you live forever and a mass power..who's to say Apoc couldn't ever take down the big T. junkie

Originally posted by Mainstream
Thanos is one of the few people who would take Apoc down no sweat...but when you live forever and a mass power..who's to say Apoc couldn't ever take down the big T. junkie

apoc is nothing compare to Thanos .

what if Apoc had that glove thingie?

If Aunt May's pet cat had that glove thingie, it could beat Thanos. Let's leave the glove thingy out of it. lol.

Thanos wrecks Apocalypse. Poccy is powerful, but you have to question someone who got blasted to high heaven by Cyclops.

okay..okay..okay..I get it..big T is one of the few people who Apoc can't mess with...for now. hahahhahahhahhahhahahahahha (hahahahhahahahhaahhahahahhahahahhaahhahahhahahha!
burlybrawl getting beat by a pet cat would suck.

by the glove do you mean IG??

yeah...the super magic glove...with it Apoc could run the universe..f**k that he could run the multiverse..all would tremble before the might, power and cunning of En Sabah Nur......banrap

with that it's not a fight is it . LOL

they should have never created IG , and my god they went as far as making HOTU .

hell with the IC..I could make the Justice League and Xmen my little B*tches!blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah

Now this is interesting.

The catch with Apocalypse is that you can't really defeat him through physical means. You have to attack him through psionics or attack his molecular cohesion. Anything less won't really harm him, and even attacking him psionicly is a task because he has established a bit of a psionic minefield for telepaths that try to harm him. Apocalypse's versatility makes him a serious threat in this battle.

Thanos is exceedingly strong himself, and stated that he was weary of the day he'd battle Hulk (not scared, just wasn't looking forward to it). Apocalypse is STRONGER than Hulk, and unlike Hulk who needs his strength stimulated through anger to fuel it, all Apocalypse has to do is will his strength increase and draw upon ambient and extradimensional energy to fuel him, and it's done. He can go from Class 100 to class 1,000,000 in moments. His ability to control his molecules, morph, and alter his size and density allow him to become any substance from dextrous plasma to adamantium and beyond or as tall as a skyscraper, and he can grant himself any physical ability, like say the ability to absorb kinetic energy to fuel his strength ala Sebastian Shaw or absorb and redirect kinetic energy ala Bishop, which would render a majority of Thanos' attacks pointless. He can also morph all or part of himself into advanced machinery, like morphing a portion of his back into a propulsion drive and having jet wings extend from his shoulders, or forming rockets in his feet or back, granting him the ability to fly or move at great speeds.

I say it's a draw or Thanos out lasts Apocalypse. Thanos has gone toe to toe with Tyrant and is still standing, but Thanos within himself doesn't (to my knowledge, and without Thanos employing some sort of weapon/artifact to increase his powers, so just using his base powers) have the means to destroy Apocalypse using all of his powers full bore. I've never seen Thanos have control over the EM spectrum to the extent Magneto did in AoA to rip Apocalypse apart with adverse polarities at the molecular level, and though Thanos does posess psionic energy blast attacks, he doesn't have the telekinetic abilities of Nate Grey/Cable/Stryfe (two of which were BRED to defeat Apocalypse), and if Apoc employs the Shaw/Bishop ability as I stated before, though Thanos has very powerful cosmic energy attacks at his disposal, they are countered, as well as any other blast Thanos could emit because it's a form of kinetic energy.

They could fight and counter until Apoc needs a new host body in 5000 years and then Thanos would win.

Or Thanos could use a Cosmic Cube, Infinity Gem, Infinity Gauntlet, or Heart of the Universe and erase Apocalypse.

no far in Big T uses his stuff! burlybrawlburlybrawlburlybrawlburlybrawlburlybrawl
burlybrawlburlybrawl I'm going with it would be a never ending battle.

On paper, Apoc has what it takes to fight Thanos. But Thanos can't die so... this fight will probably go to Thanos, but when written right, Apoc can give Thanos much trouble !

perhaps I'll write it...don't really know much about Thanos though.

Thanos is too keen and experienced to be taken out by Apoc.
WHy and how come the XMen keep kicking this guys ass????
WHY????????
It;s crazy to think that the MAD TITAN himself cannot take him down.

Originally posted by LordFear
Thanos is too keen and experienced to be taken out by Apoc.
WHy and how come the XMen keep kicking this guys ass????
WHY????????

Very simple. I'll give you two good reasons:

1. He's the villain, the X-Men are the good guys. You do the math.
2. For the same reason Doom almost always screws up in the end.

Nobody is invincible. Nobody is perfect. Apocalypse isn't and Thanos isn't.

Originally posted by illadelph12
The catch with Apocalypse is that you can't really defeat him through physical means. You have to attack him through psionics or attack his molecular cohesion. Anything less won't really harm him, and even attacking him psionicly is a task because he has established a bit of a psionic minefield for telepaths that try to harm him. Apocalypse's versatility makes him a serious threat in this battle.

Thanos is exceedingly strong himself, and stated that he was weary of the day he'd battle Hulk (not scared, just wasn't looking forward to it). Apocalypse is STRONGER than Hulk, and unlike Hulk who needs his strength stimulated through anger to fuel it, all Apocalypse has to do is will his strength increase and draw upon ambient and extradimensional energy to fuel him, and it's done. He can go from Class 100 to class 1,000,000 in moments. His ability to control his molecules, morph, and alter his size and density allow him to become any substance from dextrous plasma to adamantium and beyond or as tall as a skyscraper, and he can grant himself any physical ability, like say the ability to absorb kinetic energy to fuel his strength ala Sebastian Shaw or absorb and redirect kinetic energy ala Bishop, which would render a majority of Thanos' attacks pointless. He can also morph all or part of himself into advanced machinery, like morphing a portion of his back into a propulsion drive and having jet wings extend from his shoulders, or forming rockets in his feet or back, granting him the ability to fly or move at great speeds. Hmm...interesting. Of course considering he's NEVER demonstrated any of these abilities, (aside from growing large, which means nothing considering Sentinels are friggin huge and get their asses handed to them by mutants 1/10th their size on a regular basis), I'd say it's all BS. If he was really that powerful, why not grant himself the power of Eternity and rewrite the face of the universe?

I say it's a draw or Thanos out lasts Apocalypse. Thanos has gone toe to toe with Tyrant and is still standing, but Thanos within himself doesn't (to my knowledge, and without Thanos employing some sort of weapon/artifact to increase his powers, so just using his base powers) have the means to destroy Apocalypse using all of his powers full bore. I've never seen Thanos have control over the EM spectrum to the extent Magneto did in AoA to rip Apocalypse apart with adverse polarities at the molecular level, and though Thanos does posess psionic energy blast attacks, he doesn't have the telekinetic abilities of Nate Grey/Cable/Stryfe (two of which were BRED to defeat Apocalypse), and if Apoc employs the Shaw/Bishop ability as I stated before, though Thanos has very powerful cosmic energy attacks at his disposal, they are countered, as well as any other blast Thanos could emit because it's a form of kinetic energy.

Can I have some of what you're smoking? It must be some of the best shit ever!

They could fight and counter until Apoc needs a new host body in 5000 years and then Thanos would win.

Or Thanos would simply bitchslap Apockie into oblivion...and if anybody has the power to do it, it's Thanos.

Or Thanos could use a Cosmic Cube, Infinity Gem, Infinity Gauntlet, or Heart of the Universe and erase Apocalypse.

Naah, he wouldn't need any of that...he's a guy that's pushed around the Silver Surfer with relative ease, why would he have any problem whatsoever with Apocalypse?

The same reason Galactus, Darkseid, Imperiex, Tyrant, Mephisto, Eclipso, or any other powerful villain gets defeated. Good guys always win, even against stacked odds and a superior enemy.

Hmm...Ill's been called out. Let the battle begin in earnest...

This should be good.

that's the rule..bad guys have to lose...but they may take down some heros with them...the xmen mainly mess up Apoc plans...I wouldn't say they kick his ass....per say.

Originally posted by Mainstream
that's the rule..bad guys have to lose Yes that is the rule, but there's a fundamental difference between Apoc and Thanos. Thanos has DEMONSTRATED the will and ability to reach godhood...and yes he lost cause "he's the bad guy" and bad guys always lose. Apocalypse however, has NEVER demonstrated anything that comes close...and he loses anyway.

During the Infinity Gauntlet saga, Thanos slapped the Hulk and that other green guy (his name escapes me at the moment) with ease to get them out of his way, calling them "dull-witted brutes". You really think he would consider someone like Apocalypse a threat?

Apoc is not a god but he is G**da** strong...he'd beat 85% of the other bad guys...maybe 90% Thanos is in the lucky 10 to 15% Apoc can't F**k with....at least at his current strenght.

Seriously I don't see anywhere in Apoc's history where he has made or demonstrated great power aside from growing up and down.
Thanos on the other hand has displayed a plethora of monumental achievements.

Apoc..had people worship him by the thousands..he inspires fear to millions...that's gotta count for something.

actually apoc does have those abilities a good number of them can be seen in his little bout with the high evolutianary which he took control of by the way. Apoc doesn't always get beaten by the x-men apoc himself hardly ever fights the x-men headon or without underlings.......And what it took to beat/kill apoc.......one of the most powerful mutants....ever, magneto. another but one that was bred to kill apoc, stryfe. and uhhh the twelve......Do you even know who are in the freakin twelve.....the pheonix alone would give thanos a run for his money, but the entire twelve,,,,not a group to be taken lightly.

Apoc is like a kingpin..Lex Luthur type...usually sends in Flunkies to do his dirty work.

demi, Lord S didn't call me out. He disagreed with me, but had to voice it in a manner that was belittling. If I thought less of my debating abilities, it might have given my feelings a boo-boo...

Now, as for this comment by Lord S:



You are incorrect. Thanos, under his own power, can not '***** Apockie into oblivion'. With the IG or HOTU, yes, but with Thanos' base abilities versus Apocalypse's base abilities, no.

Anything Thanos throws at Apocalypse, from a class 5,000,000+ punch, to a planet busting cosmic blast, Apocalypse has within his power to counter. Did you even fully read my post? Do you understand the extent of Apocalypse's abilities.

He could alter himself into an organic cosmic energy conduit/re-director (Bishop-esque ability) and fire back anything Thanos attacked him with.

He could change his density to a state where Thanos' physical blows do not harm him by either absorbing the impact, or absorbing the kinetic energy of the blow and using it to strengthen himself even further (ala Sebastian Shaw).

Apocalypse can alter his body to grant himself any physical ability. Thanos, unless he has a means to attack Apocalypse's molecular cohesion at the molecular level through either telekinesis or magnetic manipulation (Magneto, Cable, and Cable derivitives Nate Grey and Stryfe) does not posess a method to take down Apocalypse.

His energy blasts can be absorbed and redirected, absorbed as fuel, or simply absorbed and dissipated.

His physical attacks would not rock Apocalypse. Apocalypse's density control allows him to become as heavy as he wishes. If Thanos throws a 500,000 ton punch, Apoc can weigh 600,000 tons by increasing his density, size, or both, and can alter himself to be as hard as the hardest material imaginable.

Thanos's best bet is to fight Apocalypse to exhaustion, which takes 5000 years until he requires a new host body. Thanos is patient and calculating, as well as immortal, so that should be no problem. He'd better remember to attack him when the 5,000 years are up or Apoc will just be at it again in a new body.

Slapping Hulk and slapping Apocalypse are entirely different feats. Hulk has unlimited strength, unlimited healing/regeneration, and that's about it. Apocalypse has that, and the ability to control how dense (or hard) his body is, as well as how heavy his body is. If Apocalypse doesn't want to be lifted or knocked off his feet, he doesn't have to be. Hulk weighs a little over half a ton. Any punch packing a ton or more of force landed correctly can knock him down. Not out, but down. When he gets up, he still weighs around 1,200 lbs, he's just pissed off. Apocalypse could weigh as much as a planet and be as hard as adamantium, and be pissed off.

Apocalypse doen't have the means to kill Thanos either though.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Apocalypse could weigh as much as a planet and be as hard as adamantium, and be pissed off.

And where/when has he ever demonstrated this uncanny ability? I'm sure his bio says all that...I'd prefer to believe it when I see it, rather than buy into the hyperbole of "Apoc can grant himself any power", cause it's really preposterous.

Thanos would easily destroy Apoc and I mean easy

Originally posted by illadelph12
Apocalypse could weigh as much as a planet

I've never heard of this happening.

It's in the same comic where Flash ends all crime on Earth due to his speed, Hulk gets so pissed he tosses a solar system, and Galactus just eats Earth and everything else. If characters in comics used their full power 24/7 there would be no reason to have a series. The X men would have died in their first fight with Magneto. That's why the forum rules state that characters go all out with their powers within their characters personality. Apocalypse is an embodiment of evil, so to think he'd go all out to kill Thanos in a death match is very feasible.

Hmm...Ill makes some strong points here. I don't know if anyone's gonna come back with anything.

demigawd playin' fight promoter.

Funny thing is I was watching a Rocky film fest yesterday on AMC and in Rocky 5 they have that bootleg Don King fight promoter that was hilarious.

"Only in America!!!"

Don King should have sued for copyright infringment.

This is completely off topic , but has anyone else ever noticed that in the Rocky films the boxers hardly ever used their block, and every punch is a jab or haymaker? I was watching Rocky 2, 3 and 4 and Clubber Lang, Apollo Creed and Drago were droppin' the ugliest bombs on Rocky and he'd never put his guard up. Then in Rocky 3 when he fight Clubber (Mr. T) the 2nd time, he jabs him like 40 times and Clubber never puts his guard up.
Those movies are hilarious (and classic). The American Ninja flicks are mad comedy too.

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's in the same comic where Flash ends all crime on Earth due to his speed, Hulk gets so pissed he tosses a solar system, and Galactus just eats Earth and everything else. If characters in comics used their full power 24/7 there would be no reason to have a series. The X men would have died in their first fight with Magneto. That's why the forum rules state that characters go all out with their powers within their characters personality. So in other words you're telling me it's all bullshit, right? Which is what I've been telling you. Nice backpeddling to the old "he's the bad guy and he has to lose" routine rather than put up real proof that Apoc can really "grant himself any power he chooses".

That's why the forum rules state that characters go all out with their powers within their characters personality.

Yes...powers and abilities that the characters actually HAVE and have DISPLAYED...not ones their fanboys dream of.

Apocalypse is an embodiment of evil, so to think he'd go all out to kill Thanos in a death match is very feasible.

Uh...no, he's not. He's an extraordinary powerful mutant, who with the aid of obsolete Celestial technology he barely understands, can do wonderous things...but embodiment of evil? Come on. Thanos is someone you can call an embodiment of evil...Darkseid is definitely someone you can label that...but Apocalypse, no way.

Oh, and you mentioned "belittling" earlier, and just in case you were wondering, I choose to belittle you because of the, *ahem*, credentials you supplied in that other thread by suggesting Nightcrawler can separate Hulk's head from his body. No explanation is necessary on that.

Oh dip!

Yo, son, Lord S must be a restaurant franchise, because Ill just got served!

(I'm so bored today, lol)

Isn't that AOL?

Oh no wait...that's "you've got mail".

You mean like Hulk's "unlimited strength" that allows him to hang with Superman in a fist fight even though Supes has the speed, flight and versatility advantage over him?

Please.

If that line of reasoning can be used for Hulk versus anyone, it can be used for Apocalypse. 'Fanboyism' or no 'Fanboyism', it's feasible. Don't be a hypocrite.

As for bringing up the Nightcrawler argument (which has nothing to do with this), whether you, or anyone else, choose to accept it or not, I could care less. It is possible, and has been shown to be so in the comic books within canon material, not a "What If" or fan voted crossover, in continuity. You don't like it, I could give a f*ck. It happened, it can happen, in a deathmatch, it would happen. I provided comic book numbers where it happened, and other posters provided scans from comics that I didn't bring up of the same thing happening. All others provided was "No way can he beat Hulk. Hulk has unlimited strength and durability". I didn't say Nightcrawler was going to pimp slap Hulk with his tail, having tough skin don't mean sh*t when your opponent can teleport your limbs and head away.

It's funny how close minded muthaf*ckas get on here when it comes to someone fighting Hulk, and now Thanos. Not only could Nightcrawler decapitate and dismember Hulk, but Cloak from Cloak & Dagger would own Hulk easily. You don't have to have Class 100+ strength or cosmic powers to beat Hulk, you just need an ability that can exploit a weakness Hulk has, like the fact he's still organic and only weighs about 1,200 lbs. "Hulk smash" is not always the way. People seem to think in boxes on here, and assume that since there's more people in their box, they must be right. A million Frenchmen can be wrong homie. I think for myself, and I back it up with logic.

That simple. Don't agree, prove me wrong. Not with opinion, with proof.

Provide evidence that Apocalypse DOES NOT have unlimited strength, molecular control, and density control like his Marvel bio states, and then provide evidence that Hulk DOES have unlimited strength like his Marvel bio states, from the comics.

Too many hypocrites on here. If the argument works for Hulk, it works for other characters as well. Hulk has potentially unlimited strength. Apocalypse has the same, plus density control, shapeshifting, and the ability to grant himself other physical abilities by altering his molecular arrangment.

You better miss me with that childish point on conjecture homie.

Ring the bell demi.

DAAAAAYYYYYYUUUUUUM! Someone grab a fire extinguisher, Lord S just got SMOKED.

Ok, let me quote you for a second...



Ok, now that we're done with that...

If that line of reasoning can be used for Hulk versus anyone, it can be used for Apocalypse. 'Fanboyism' or no 'Fanboyism', it's feasible. Don't be a hypocrite.

It's not about being a hypocrite, my informationally handicapped muppet, it's about using logic and common sense and applying it with a sense of rationality.

As for bringing up the Nightcrawler argument (which has nothing to do with this), whether you, or anyone else, choose to accept it or not, I could care less.

I didn't ask you to care, but thank you anyway.

I think for myself, and I back it up with logic.

What logic? Where? I must have missed it. Oh, you must have meant illogic...typo on your part, don't worry homie, it happens all the time.

That simple. Don't agree, prove me wrong. Not with opinion, with proof.

You first.

Provide evidence that Apocalypse DOES NOT have unlimited strength, molecular control, and density control like his Marvel bio states, and then provide evidence that Hulk DOES have unlimited strength like his Marvel bio states, from the comics.

Uh nice try, but the onus in not on me to provide evidence to counter something that is claimed, yet never proven. Once it's proven, then it's my job to counter it with proof. Again, good try.

BTW, I've never claimed that Hulk has "unlimited strength"...the whole idea of any character possessing unlimited strength is just absurd. It's a hyperbole, and I don't buy into those. In fact in that "Hulk vs. Thanos" thread, I give the victory to Thanos.

Apocalypse has the same, plus density control, shapeshifting, and the ability to grant himself other physical abilities by altering his molecular arrangment.

Again, are you basing this on actual proof or what you read in a bio?

conjecture

Yeah, pot, kettle, black...homie.

By the way, this isn't personal Lord S. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, and I respect that. I got no beef with you just like I have no beef with Alpha.

I do, however, think you bringing me up in that other thread (Hulk/Thanos) where I wasn't even involved in the debate was b*tchmade. No beef, but sh*t like that's not necessary or called for, feel me. You don't agree, prove that Nightcrawler never dismembered someone in the comic books. Don't try to belittle me because you and a few others disagree with what was written.

As far as proving what Marvel says about their own characters, I'm not the writer, so I can only go by what they say about their character. Whether or not they prove to show the characters full abilities in ink is up to them. Similar to the Flash being able to throat slash hundreds of super heroes in a second yet he hasn't been displayed to do it, but his powers portray that he could.
That's why Tron states in the rules that:



It's a proven fact that Apocalypse can alter his mass, density, matter, and strength, the full extent of which has not been shown as of yet. So one could theorize, as I have, that Apocalypse could pull off the method of counter attack I stated. Would you like book numbers of when Apocalypse has shape shifted or turned himself into various metals, or his arms into various devices.

Besides, I didn't say Apocalypse could/would win, I said he'd hold up until his energies failed due to need of a new host body and Thanos would take him.

Informationally handicapped. That was good.

If this is the case, then why are you so vehemenently against the fact that Nightcrawler can teleport limbs and bodyparts off when it has been PROVEN that he can do so. So much in fact that you brought it up in a thread that had nothing to do with the thread at hand or me being involved in the thread.

Now, you said:



I proved that with evidence and you let your own opinion override the facts at hand.

Why?

Matter of fact, forget it. I already made my points, gave my reasons and basis for them. I don't need to go further.

Thanos. Apocalypse's power is overhyped. Thanos slapped Hulk and Drax out in a scuffle to get ahold of the IG. He was headslamming Hulk and Thing while Thor and Hercules tried to attack him. Before his death, Thanos was beating down Thor and Thing; after his death, he got a power boost.

Apocalypse sucks at fighting compared to Thanos. His strength and power are below the titan. His an ape compared to Thanos. Thor, Surfer, Warlock, Gladiator, etc. can beat Apocalypse down. Who is he to compare to Thanos?

Dang. Owned. If Lord S's real name is Tina, Ill's real name is Ike.


(this is too much fun)

Drama King!!

I'm liking the Apoc. arguments. Thanos's trump card is always that he can't actually die, so he'd win eventually (5,000 year rule seems to be Apoc's biggest weakness...at least in this fight). But if we're going "who gets the best licks in during the short-term fight" then I might give it to Apoc. Yeah, Thanos has "shown" more, but if Apoc. is operating at full potential, there won't be much Thanos can do to kill him until the body switch.

-DM

I'm definitely thinking the apoc side of this argument is winning, Thanos is gonna win the fight, but team apoc does have most excellent points.
well done.

If Apocalypse has any chance of beating Thanos, then he can
beat Silver Surfer or Morg. And I doubt there is anyone who can
seriously argue that Apocalypse can last more than a second against
Silver Surfer or Morg.


Apocalypse is not even the most powerful being on Earth. Yet
Thanos is one of the single most powerful being in the whole universe
(excluding the Cosmic Beings).

Thanos has beaten, or atleast stood up to, some of the strongest
characters in Marvel, from Silver Surfer, to Odin, to Tyrant.
Apocalypse can barely last against the X-men.

Apocalyse lived 5,000 years on Earth, doing nothing but preteding
to be a god to some superstitious humans.

Thanos has lived atleast 10,000 years, during which time he has
wandered the universe, and faught countless battles.


Bottom line: Thanos erases Apocalypse (if he even notices him)
from the face of the planet in a second (something even Silver
Surfer can do). Of it's a fist fight, Thanos tears Apocalypse's head
off one move.

Sorry illadelph12, but you have to look at the big picture here.

it's posts like that one that's the reason team thanos is losing this debate.

Originally posted by jinzin
it's posts like that one that's the reason team thanos is losing this debate.



????

you're being completely ignorant of apoc. He's not the pushover you make him out to be. you make it sound as if the x-men beat apoc regularly in head on fights....they don't. Magneto did it,,,,at full bore he'd even give thanos trouble, same for stryfe, and I'd be surprised to see thanos vicotrious over the twelve, the pheonix alone would give him a run for his money. And apoc against SS. SS has an extremely hard time dealing with hulk, spiderman even gave SS a decent fuss. APOC would probably beat the guy to be quite honest.

Originally posted by jinzin
you're being completely ignorant of apoc. He's not the pushover you make him out to be. you make it sound as if the x-men beat apoc regularly in head on fights....they don't. Magneto did it,,,,at full bore he'd even give thanos trouble, same for stryfe, and I'd be surprised to see thanos vicotrious over the twelve, the pheonix alone would give him a run for his money. And apoc against SS. SS has an extremely hard time dealing with hulk, spiderman even gave SS a decent fuss. APOC would probably beat the guy to be quite honest.



Funny, I thought my post was quite clear.

I doubt Magneto would give someone like Thanos a tough time.
Maybe more than Apocalypse, but not much.

About the Phoenix, ofcourse Phoenix (let loose) would destroy
Thanos, but Phoenix is not in the same league, or catagory, as
Magneto and Apocalypse. Phoenix is a Cosmic Being, in the
same league as Galactus and the Celestials. She shouldn't
even be brought into this debate.

And as for Silver Surfer, you are, ofcourse joking? Silver
Surfer can vaporize Hulk and Spider-Man together. That he does
not has to do with the fact that he is a good guy. He's not
going to kill the Hulk or Spider-Man, or any other hero or
friend.

You say I'm ignorant of Apocalypse? Maybe so. But you seem
to know absolutely nothing about Thanos and cosmic powers.
Thanos can probably obliterate a hundred Apocalypses at the
same time. Maybe you should read some Silver Surfer or
Fantastic Four comics, they'd tell you all about what cosmic
powered beings like Thanos and Silver Surfer can do.

I seem to know nothing about thanos? my ass.

Originally posted by jinzin
... my ass.


What about it? It big, fat and gets kicked often.

funny, not accurate in the least, and not really funny either but whateva.

Uh, I never said Apocalypse would win. Did anyone catch that part or did you just assume since I spoke on Apocalypse's abilities I said he would win? I was just stating the method of combat Apoc has at his disposal to counter Thanos. He doesn't have the means to kill Thanos, he simply has a means to render Thanos's attack useless. Eventually his powers would destroy the body he's in and Thanos could take him. I'm pretty well versed on both characters, that's how I know that under his own power Thanos does not have the electro-magnetic, telekinetic, or psionic manipulation it would take to attack Apoc.

Also, just because Thanos has beaten more 'powerful' characters, you shouldn't assume he'd just crush anyone who doesn't have the same firepower. That's Dragonball logic. You have to go by what the characters abilities allow him to do.

Like, for instance, Cloak vs Hulk.

Hulk can go blow for blow with any character anywhere, and knock a majority out, and he can heal from any wound, Cloak couldn't hope to do any of that. Hulk is infinite times more powerful than Cloak, yet Cloak's abilities, though he's vastly weaker than his opponent, allow him to counter Hulk's attacks or entrap him if he wished. It's not about who you've beaten or how powerful you are, it's about the individual match-up; abilities versus abilities.

Fair enough.

But with regards to...



...you forget that maybe telekinetic or psionic or electro-magnetic
attacks are the best ones to defeat Apocalypse with, from the point
of view of earth heroes, but that doesn't mean that a big blast of
cosmic energy cannot vaporize him.

In other words, earth heroes have to depend on such attacks as the
three you stated, because they don't have access to higher levels
of powers. But Thanos does. Thanos can probably turn an average
US State, or the British Island, into a giant crater. Access to such
levels of power makes Thanos beyond most earth super-beings.

Originally posted by demigawd
Dang. Owned. If Lord S's real name is Tina, Ill's real name is Ike.


(this is too much fun)
Originally posted by jinzin
it's posts like that one that's the reason team thanos is losing this debate.

Jinzin often speaks out of his rear. I've noticed it in other threads

Originally posted by King Burger
What about it? It big, fat and gets kicked often.

More members of this forum should have your logic and understanding.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Uh, I never said Apocalypse would win. Did anyone catch that part or did you just assume since I spoke on Apocalypse's abilities I said he would win? I was just stating the method of combat Apoc has at his disposal to counter Thanos. He doesn't have the means to kill Thanos, he simply has a means to render Thanos's attack useless. Eventually his powers would destroy the body he's in and Thanos could take him. I'm pretty well versed on both characters, that's how I know that under his own power Thanos does not have the electro-magnetic, telekinetic, or psionic manipulation it would take to attack Apoc.

Also, just because Thanos has beaten more 'powerful' characters, you shouldn't assume he'd just crush anyone who doesn't have the same firepower. That's Dragonball logic. You have to go by what the characters abilities allow him to do.

Like, for instance, Cloak vs Hulk.

Hulk can go blow for blow with any character anywhere, and knock a majority out, and he can heal from any wound, Cloak couldn't hope to do any of that. Hulk is infinite times more powerful than Cloak, yet Cloak's abilities, though he's vastly weaker than his opponent, allow him to counter Hulk's attacks or entrap him if he wished. It's not about who you've beaten or how powerful you are, it's about the individual match-up; abilities versus abilities.

I already accounted for that in an earlier post KB. A cosmic energy blast is still kinetic energy. Apocalypse absorbs energy to fuel his powers by design anyway. Augmenting his body to absorb cosmic energy and either re-direct it as a return blast or absorb it as fuel to strengthen himself is not a big feat. Some mutants, like for instance Havok or the Living Monolith, already do that naturally. Apocalypse could as well given his powers to alter his molecular make up.

Besides, I said Thanos would win. I just don't think it would be a massacre.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Besides, I said Thanos would win. I just don't think it would be a massacre.
Same here.

i think it will be massacre.

Apc been hurt by the likes cyc , mag etc.

while Thanos easily takes guys like SS , hulk , drax etc.

Originally posted by who?-kid
Same here.

Oh, it'd be. All that's stated by posters about why Apocalypse would stand a chance is nothing but a stretch of his power. He can't change into adamantium or make himself denser than the Earth or absorb energy or increase his strength.

Ok time to clear up some fallacies and misconceptions...

Originally posted by illadelph12
I do, however, think you bringing me up in that other thread (Hulk/Thanos) where I wasn't even involved in the debate was b*tchmade. No beef, but sh*t like that's not necessary or called for, feel me. You don't agree, prove that Nightcrawler never dismembered someone in the comic books. Don't try to belittle me because you and a few others disagree with what was written.

I don't recall mentioning you at all in that thread. I did voice my opinion that Thanos vs. Hulk was a decent fight, as opposed to Nightcrawler vs. Hulk. Why that hurts your feelings is beyond me.

As far as proving what Marvel says about their own characters, I'm not the writer, so I can only go by what they say about their character. Whether or not they prove to show the characters full abilities in ink is up to them.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I prefer to see powers and abilities exhibited at least a couple of times in realistic situations versus realistic opponents before I choose to accept that the character is capable of wielding said power.

It's a proven fact that Apocalypse can alter his mass, density, matter, and strength, the full extent of which has not been shown as of yet. So one could theorize, as I have, that Apocalypse could pull off the method of counter attack I stated. Would you like book numbers of when Apocalypse has shape shifted or turned himself into various metals, or his arms into various devices.

Key phrase...the full extent of which has not been shown as of yet...so you're choosing to exaggerate. I would like book numbers...especially where Apoc has altered his mass and density to weigh as much as a planet, and his armour to make it as hard as adamantium. Plus I want to see the one where he goes from Class 100 to Class 1,000,000 and becomes as powerful as Celestials...then I might actually start believing some of the tripe that comes off the keyboards of his fanboys. Other than that, I don't need any book numbers. I've seen him grow to fairly large sizes, and alter his armour to create shields, guns, a life supports system in space, etc. Devices that I'm sure Thanos and his cosmic power would have little trouble getting past.

Now to derail the thread a little...

If this is the case, then why are you so vehemenently against the fact that Nightcrawler can teleport limbs and bodyparts off when it has been PROVEN that he can do so.

I am not vehemently against Nightcrawler being able to do that...just not against someone like the Hulk.

Your response to this will be: But he did it against the Magus, who is just as powerful or more than the Hulk

To that I say: That's Dragonball logic.

Sound familiar? They're your words, not mine...and they apply in the case of Nightcrawler...but not in the case of Thanos vs. Apocalypse, cause Thanos is simply on another level...one that Apockie had struggled desperately to achieve before his untimely death. Boo hoo.

So much in fact that you brought it up in a thread that had nothing to do with the thread at hand or me being involved in the thread.

Here's where you're wrong, twinkletoes. You brought it up. All I did was explain to you that I was belittling you because I perceived your credibility to be too microscopic to compute, based on the opinions expressed in the Hulk vs. NC thread. In no way was that an invitation to begin debating that in this thread. You started that all on your own.

Back on track...

I proved that with evidence and you let your own opinion override the facts at hand.

Why?

Matter of fact, forget it. I already made my points, gave my reasons and basis for them. I don't need to go further.

Spoken so 'matter of factly'...yet I'm still at a loss to figure out what 'facts' you presented. I never argued that Apocalypse couldn't alter his size, mass, shapeshift, etc. What you're doing is tainting your 'facts' with opinion based on a hyperbole...I'm simply not believing it.

You've chosen to exaggerate Apoc's abilities...I have not done the same. With Thanos, you don't have to at all. What are you going to tell me next? He's a match for Galactus now?

I too don't believe that Apocalypse will be a pushover...but it won't take hundreds of years either for Thanos to dispose of him.

Moving on to others...

Originally posted by jinzin
actually apoc does have those abilities a good number of them can be seen in his little bout with the high evolutianary which he took control of by the way. Can't believe I missed this...I'd hardly say he "took control" of the High Evolutionary...it ended in a stalemate, and the Evo even considered forcing him back to continue after he left, but thought it to be a waste of time. Even if Apoc did come off more powerful than the Evolutionary, who cares? That suddenly means he stands a chance against Thanos? Thanos is not about to take a guy named 'Herbert' seriously.

Apoc doesn't always get beaten by the x-men apoc himself hardly ever fights the x-men headon or without underlings.......And what it took to beat/kill apoc.......one of the most powerful mutants....ever, magneto. another but one that was bred to kill apoc, stryfe. and uhhh the twelve......Do you even know who are in the freakin twelve.....the pheonix alone would give thanos a run for his money, but the entire twelve,,,,not a group to be taken lightly.

Ooooh, the 'Freakin Twelve'. The only one of which would catch the attention of Thanos would be Nate Grey...Jean does not pose even the smallest of threats to Thanos. Now, wielding the power of the Phoenix Force...well that's a different story...but then if you want to give her that, then give Thanos the Infinity Gauntlet, and he'll cage her like a canary, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

How about if Thanos just turns on the time bomb on his belt just as he did after the IG story... a simple bomb you say? Who was on that hunk of rock with Thanos - Thor, Hulk, Drax, Dr Strange, Surfer, Warlock with the IG no less - all capable of withstanding enormous amounts of cosmic energy, yet they still had to knock Thanos away from that asteroid to stay safe.

^^^
Good point!

hyperbole: exaggeration; overstatement

possibilty: The quality or state of being possible; the power of happening, being, or existing.

Semantics.

It's all a matter of opinion and perspective, Lord S.

Also, I won't stoop to the childish name calling such as 'twinkletoes', or assuming you're smoking something potent or question your intelligence due to your differing opinions.

You think it's an exageration that a character with psionic control over his atomic structure, and the ability to control his size, matter, and density, and who has on many documented occasions changed his body to various sizes, metals, substances, and devices, could change himself into adamantium, which IS a metal.

I think it is a possibility.

The fact Marvel never displays this can be for many reasons, like for instance, that it would make Apoc an unbeatable opponent for the X-Men if they used his characters premise to it's full extent. I could speculate, but I don't care to because it would solve nothing. It's their work of fiction, I have no say in the matter. I can simply state possibilities given the premise presented to me.



No. I never said that . Galactus has cosmic level control over matter and the atomic structure of matter. He can alter an organism like Norrin Radd from flesh and bone into a being like the Silver Surfer with a thought and his powers. Thanos simply has cosmic energy blasts, he doesn't have the control over matter as Galactus does. He's simply a powerful, augmented, mutant Titanian Eternal who can emit energy blast from absorbed cosmic energy and create forcefields. He's not one of the 3 essential forces in the Marvel Universe. He has to procure artifacts to be on or above that level.



Plot device.



I'm not a child. I can interpret insinuation and innuendo. Like in the Apocalypse vs. Surfer thread. My feelings aren't hurt, I simply feel it's unnecessary for you to bring up our differing opinions in a belittling way for a sort of subliminal insult. I feel it's childish.

Now, I've already said what I have to say. I explained my reasoning many times. You choose not to agree, so be it. I don't feel I have to say anything more on this matter, nor will I.

Apoc seems to have the power of Life. He has his energy sleep where whatever he has suffered in the past is deleted.
Thanos draws on stuff, energies and what not. Apoc. generates the stuff all for himself. I think facing Apoc. energies is more deadly than the stuff Thanos can throw at you.
When 2 peps fight and one is throwing stagnant energies around(powerful but plain) and the other is making fresh stuff. I give it to the guy who makes his own.
Thus Apocalypse in 3 rounds.

Originally posted by illadelph12
You think it's an exageration that a character with psionic control over his atomic structure, and the ability to control his size, matter, and density, and who has on many documented occasions changed his body to various sizes, metals, substances, and devices, could change himself into adamantium, which IS a metal. Yes I believe it is a gross exaggeration. Tell me Apocalypse can grow to the size of the Statue of Liberty, I'll believe you. Tell me he can turn his arms into blasters, I'll believe you. Tell me he can create a forcefield, I'll believe you. Tell me he can turn his armour into adamantium...unless he's already incorporated some sort of liquid version of it into his armour, I'll tell you you're insane. Tell me he can weigh as much as a freaking planet...I'll tell you that you need your head examined. If you were half as intelligent and mature as you try to push on everyone, you'd see it.

The fact Marvel never displays this can be for many reasons, like for instance, that it would make Apoc an unbeatable opponent for the X-Men if they used his characters premise to it's full extent. I could speculate, but I don't care to because it would solve nothing. It's their work of fiction, I have no say in the matter. I can simply state possibilities given the premise presented to me.

The problem I have is with this whole "grant himself ANY power he chooses" and "unlimited strength". I know you have a problem with the latter as it applies to the Hulk. I don't mind a slight exaggeration, but going from class 100 to class 1,000,000 and weighing as much as a planet is going a little over the top, wouldn't you agree?

No. I never said that . Galactus has cosmic level control over matter and the atomic structure of matter. He can alter an organism like Norrin Radd from flesh and bone into a being like the Silver Surfer with a thought and his powers. Thanos simply has cosmic energy blasts, he doesn't have the control over matter as Galactus does. He's simply a powerful, augmented, mutant Titanian Eternal who can emit energy blast from absorbed cosmic energy and create forcefields. He's not one of the 3 essential forces in the Marvel Universe. He has to procure artifacts to be on or above that level.

Thank you for the lesson...Galactus 101. I am forever indebted to you! The reason I brought it up was because many Apoc fanboys claim that he is on par with Galactus, and was just checking if you, due to your recent vacuous comments, would go down that slippery slope as well. It's refreshing to see you don't hold that opinion. My respect for you has increased by 1%.

I'm not a child. I can interpret insinuation and innuendo. Like in the Apocalypse vs. Surfer thread. My feelings aren't hurt, I simply feel it's unnecessary for you to bring up our differing opinions in a belittling way for a sort of subliminal insult. I feel it's childish.



Waaah...here's the box of tissues you ordered. Please...you've been no less flippant yourself.

hyperbole: exaggeration; overstatement

possibilty: The quality or state of being possible; the power of happening, being, or existing.

opinion: to opine; Favorable estimation; hence, consideration; reputation; fame; public sentiment or esteem; The judgment or sentiment which the mind forms of persons, concepts or things; personal estimation.

Semantics.

density: combination of how compressed a material is to how much its atoms or molecules weigh per unit volume.

All it would take is knowledge of the atomic structure of adamantium (which Apocalypse has) and a thought, since his control of his atomic structure is psionic. Adamantium is a type of metal that is extremely dense. Apocalypse can alter his atomic structure and density, and can change from flesh to any type of matter, metal included, altering his structure, size and density (weight), with his power, and has changed his body into metals on numerous occasions.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. I've rehashed my reasoning on this topic many times. In your opinion, it's an exageration. I feel given the premise that it's a possibility in my opinion.

As I said before, I will go no further. If you do not believe he can change into metals and alter his density and atomic structure, though he has been displayed to do so, so be it.

Apoc: foolish insects! do you not realize I am an Immortal...I am...Apocalypse! ( love it when he says stuff like that!)

Yeah. Bad enough I'm an insect. But now I'm a foolish one, too?

yeah....I can be foolish..or I could be an insect..but I refuse to be both! matrixness

Originally posted by Mainstream
Apoc: foolish insects! do you not realize I am an Immortal...I am...Apocalypse! ( love it when he says stuff like that!)
it's funny he says stuff like that , then gets his ass kicked

how long has he been trying to take over earth lol what a fool.

Originally posted by illadelph12
As I said before, I will go no further. If you do not believe he can change into metals and alter his density and atomic structure, though he has been displayed to do so, so be it. Fair enough, Ill.

what you expect I mean he's a bad guy...he can't win.....for now anyway.

Apoc: simple minded slugs....soon their shall be a new age...an age..of Apocalypse..hahahahahahhahahahahahhahahhaha!

Well, in this case, it doesn't matter...they're both bad guys, so there's no "bad guys lose" factor involved.

It seems the core points have been exausted in this debate, so let me throw a little point out:

Thanos is a high level matter manipulator, being in control of cosmic power. He exercises a high degree of control at the molecular level. He's used his power to heal people before, he's re-arranged matter to such a fine degree that he was able to instantly restore a house destroyed in a battle, he's terraformed rock and the environment using his own power and he's created breathable atmosphere for his IW colleagues.

Additionally, he's a powerful enough telepath to have labotomized a herald of Galactus and overwhelm Moondragon in the past. Considering that Poccy has a demonstrated weakness against both of those, and Thanos has both of those in abundance, you should probably take that into consideration for this fight.

Thanos is a lot more than Hulk with power blasts.

Addendum (for clarification):



Apocalypse can not grant himself any power, he can grant himself any PHYSICAL ABILITY. For instance, he can't turn his arm into the Infinity Gauntlet and wield it's power. He could mimic it's aesthetic design, but he doesn't have access to the energies the gems contain. He can't become Magneto and have psionic manipulation over the electro magnetic spectrum, but he can alter his body to metabolize kinetic and cosmic energy like Havok, Bishop, Living Monolith, or Sebastian Shaw, which a is physical trait.

fair enough...

Apoc: I have lost..but when you are immortal time means nothing...nothing...to one such as I...Apocalypse...Hahhahahahhahahaahahhhahahah (hahahahahahah)

its clear to me that the ppl voicing aganist apoc's physical self augmenting capabilties dont know much about him. or thanos too FTM. the thing is... just like illadelph has hinted countless times just like Havok, Living Monolith and even Atlas/Giant man. Apocalypse draws energy from an extra-dimensionary source,that is seeminlgy infinite. and he bends it to his will.

so long as he keeps drawing from this source his power could grow way beyond the current exponential levels they are now. so to put a rest to it somewhat, even tho its only gonna spark more foolish "if i never seen it it cant happen debating" he has control of his body down to an atomic level. therfore he can change into anything he feels like, and yes that includes adamantium or growing to the size of the earth, turning into a giant energy spewing weapon capable of destroying the earth, or becoming more dense than the desnest thing you can think of. Even tho it was his own self serving rantings apoc did say the the celestials power exceed all but his own(plus the fact that he has mastered celestial technolgy)..and i dont think that thanos under his OWN power is more powerful than a celestial

when you think about it apocalypse is basically a brash mixture of Cyborg Superman+Firestorm. but the changes he can achieve are limtied to his own body.so it all boils down to reverting back to everything illadelph said earlier about his abilites and them being true....but as far as this battles goes, i think it would end up the same way it did when thanos fought tyrant--draw(even tho thanos ran off b4 tyrant could go mideval on his ass)

One other thing I'd like to add in addition to my post above: Apocalypse has molecular control over his body, not atomic control. There's a world of difference between the two. He can control his density, by packing in his molecules, but he couldn't become as hard as adamantium. Adamantium isn't as strong as it is because of it's density. Look at it this way - 1 pound of steel vs. 100 pounds of tissue molecularly packed in for equal density. So sure, it's awfully solid, similarly so to steel. But it's still tissue...you can burn it. You can't burn steel.

So Apocalypse can try to approximate certain materials, but the fact that his self-control is limited to molecules limits exactly what he's able to do. I'd say only half the things on Ill's list are actually possible.

Originally posted by manjaro
http://webhome.idirect.com/~sprasher/images/blah.gif Wow...so Apoc is on par with a Celestial? Tell me something...is ignorance really as blissful as they say?

no smart guy i wasnt making that claim i was just saying what he said. that why i said tho it was his own self served rantings. anybody can say anything they want about themselves but that doesnt make it true. IMO if he came to that conclusion in the first place that means he must have measured his power aginst theirs to some extent. whether or not its factual is irrevelant so i really dont see the need to get insulting

Originally posted by demigawd
One other thing I'd like to add in addition to my post above: Apocalypse has molecular control over his body, not atomic control. There's a world of difference between the two.

actually there isnt. molecules are a bunch of atoms bonded together so if you control molecules youre controlling atoms. point taken tho. i concede that he probably couldnt replicate adamantium exaclty but he would come pretty close

No, controlling atoms give you the ability to control molecules, not the other way around. But given what you said afterwards, I think we're on the same page - Poccy wouldn't be able to turn into Adamantium or any other molecular/atomic compound. He could only control the molecules in his body, or draw upon more energy to supplement his molecules. So he could increase his density and size and all of that, but he won't be able to synthesize or absorb anything that his molecules aren't naturally able to do. Given that he's been laid out by optic blasts, that doesn't seem likely.

I don't know whether or not Ill has some specific scientific theory in mind, but I'd like to discuss it.

.

I see what you're saying demi, but I'm pretty sure it's psionic control of his atomic structure and not just his molecular structure given the fact he can transmute his being from flesh to metal and mechanical devices. If it were simply molecules that wouldn't be possible. If he were made of cotton he couldn't become as hard as steel by simply moving around his molecular structure. It's similar to Collossus' transformation. For reference, I offer this:

"Known Superhuman Powers: Apocalypse is a mutant who possesses superhuman strength which he can augment by psionically drawing on outside energy sources. Apocalypse can alter the atomic structure of his body at will in order to change his form. He can even increase his size by taking on additional mass from a presumably extra-dimensional source. Through his ability to alter his form, Apocalypse can give himself virtually any superhuman physical power.

Apocalypse has an extraordinarily long life span that has already lasted thousands of years. He can survive for weeks without food or water and can rapidly recover from injuries that would prove fatal to normal human beings. In the future, however, his physical form will eventually grow too aged and enfeebled to contain his vast superhuman energies. Hence, he will transfer his consciousness and powers into a succession of host bodies, abandoning each one when it too grows too old to contain his power."

Not from Marvel.com since, but accurate.

Apocalypse has always described his own power as being molecular control, not atomic control. That encylopedia reference is the only time I've heard of it being molecular.

It's also never been shown that he alters his form to metal specifically. He has a metallic appearance, but have you seen evidence that it's specifically metal? I'd always assumed that, like any other shapechanger, he just changes shape but everything is just his body, similar to Mystique turning into Wolverine complete with "metal" claws that aren't really metal.

Have you see something that revealed it be actual metal? Or where he referred to some part of his body as being a specific metal?

I think it's more a grammatical (and scientific) error on the part of the writers at Marvel. I guess I'll have to get scientific:

A molecule is a base element of a compound.

An atom is the base of an element, which make up compounds.

For instance, you don't have water atoms, you have water molecules, which consist of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom.

Apocalypse is made of flesh and bone, which are compounds. You can not re-arrange flesh into items such as energy canons, jet packs, rockets, drills, pistons, battering rams, or jet wings, just as you can not turn water into, well, flesh, without altering it's atomic structure, thereby transmuting it into another compound.

Originally posted by manjaro
no smart guy i wasnt making that claim i was just saying what he said. that why i said tho it was his own self served rantings. anybody can say anything they want about themselves but that doesnt make it true. IMO if he came to that conclusion in the first place that means he must have measured his power aginst theirs to some extent. whether or not its factual is irrevelant so i really dont see the need to get insulting Well let's dissect what you said...

Even tho it was his own self serving rantings apoc did say the the celestials power exceed all but his own(plus the fact that he has mastered celestial technolgy)

So he claimed it...and everybody likes to toot their own horn, which is fine...but then you said:

..and i dont think that thanos under his OWN power is more powerful than a celestial

And what's the purpose of this sentence...if not to imply that Apoc is indeed more powerful than a Celestial, since you're mentioning Thanos in a context that compares him to Apocalypse and Celestials.

And BTW, why is it 'foolish' to ask for proof? Are you one of those ultra right-wing conservatives who take everything at face value and don't question anything? Are we supposed to believe everything about Apocalypse...even though the extreme examples have never been displayed...just cause somebody wrote it in a bio? Even if the source is Marvel, writing, 'Apocalypse can give himself virtually any superhuman physical power', is simply another way of saying, 'this is a potential cash-cow character, and we're not entirely sure which direction he'll be going in yet, so we'll give him unlimited power for the time being until we can figure out what to do with him'.

Go ask Jim Starlin what he would think about Apocalypse vs. Thanos, and I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you where to go.

And if Apoc is so powerful and so dangerous...why is it that only the X-teams consider him to be a major threat? What other teams, besides the X-teams, bother to care when Apocalypse is wreaking havoc? On the other hand, when Thanos stirs up shit, EVERYBODY cares.

Apocalypse is made of flesh and bone, which are compounds. You can not re-arrange flesh into items such as energy canons, jet packs, rockets, drills, pistons, battering rams, or jet wings, just as you can not turn water into, well, flesh, without altering it's atomic structure, thereby transmuting it into another compound.

I don't believe his flesh and bone is what's being rearranged...it's his armour.

My own theory on how Poccy's power worked was that was able to draw on additional mass from the outside and pack those into his existing molecules. That increased density is what gives him the strength and extra durability that he has, but it's still just the same molecules. His energy projection and psionic-like power was part of the Celestial enhancement after finding Ship (since his only mutant power is molecular control). That energy projection is what facilitates powers such as energy canons, jet packs rockets, etc. All the other shapes, just as battering rams, pistons, etc. were just part of the regular shape-shifting gamut...I've seen Mystique do some of the same things (the difference being that she can't reinforce herself with additional "extra-dimensional" mass).

All of that can be done without actually transmuting your atomic structure.

(Just got back from my lunch break. )

Ok.

I'll see if I can find a comic where it says Apocalypse changes into a metal, just to put you guys at ease.

Also, just so you guys know (or you may already know), density is an atomic trait, not a molecular trait.

You can't increase your density by packing more molecules together, you can only increase your mass (weight). You can't make water molecules more dense by adding more water molecules to them, just the mass, you would increase the density by packing the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in the compound more close together to make the compound more stable (in the case of water, by decreasing it's temperature and freezing it), thereby increasing it's density. You can't make skin harder by adding more skin. You can only make it thicker, but it won't increase it's density or change it's matter, just it's mass (thickness).

Also, to add, you can increase your weight without increasing your mass by increasing your density. That's why a 5'x 5' block of wood and 5' x 5' block of steel weigh different amounts, a difference in atomic density, not molecular mass.

Apocalypse: OH SH!T!

http://img235.exs.cx/img235/3137/namorvsapocalypse014hn.jpg

All seeing Apocalypse

http://img235.exs.cx/img235/3137/namorvsapocalypse014hn.th.jpg

Namor: Eat table!

http://img122.exs.cx/my.phploc=img122&image=namorvsapocalypse034py.jpg


Apocalypse: F#CK THAT, better duck and have the pacific ocean drop on me than have that table hit me.

http://img240.exs.cx/my.phploc=img240&image=namorvsapocalypse045at.jpg

Originally posted by illadelph12
(Just got back from my lunch break. )

Ok.

I'll see if I can find a comic where it says Apocalypse changes into a metal, just to put you guys at ease.

Also, just so you guys know (or you may already know), density is an atomic trait, not a molecular trait.

You can't increase your density by packing more molecules together, you can only increase your mass (weight). You can't make water molecules more dense by adding more water molecules to them, just the mass, you would increase the density by packing the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in the compound more close together to make the compound more stable (in the case of water, by decreasing it's temperature and freezing it), thereby increasing it's density. You can't make skin harder by adding more skin. You can only make it thicker, but it won't increase it's density or change it's matter, just it's mass (thickness).

Also, to add, you can increase your weight without increasing your mass by increasing your density. That's why a 5'x 5' block of wood and 5' x 5' block of steel weigh different amounts, a difference in atomic density, not molecular mass.

Untrue. Density is simply a measurement of mass/volume. It applies to anything - from atomic to molecular to the density of people riding a train. If Apocalypse has a volume of, say, 100 square cm and a mass of 500kg he has a density of 5kg/sq cm. If he wants to increase his density, he would call on his extradimensional source and increase his mass within the same volume. If he wants to double his density, he would increase his mass to 1000kg but keep the same size. Voila - his density is now 10kg/sq cm. Nothing atomic about it.

Isnt this just beating a dead horse?

How so?

Because they umm... oink oink oink!

That's scientifically unsound demi.

You can not increase the density of a molecule (compound) by adding more molecules to it. If you have 100 liters of water, adding more water molecules will not make the water thicker to increase the density, it would only increase the volume.

In chemistry, the density of many substances is compared to the density of water. Does an object float on water or sink in the water? If an object such as a piece of wood floats on water it is less dense than water, as opposed to a rock which sinks, due to it being more dense than water.

A rock is obviously more dense than a mass of paper of the same size. A styrofoam cup is less dense than a stainless steel cup of the same size.

Density is a physical property of matter, as each element and compound has a unique density associated with it. Density defined in a qualitative manner as the measure of the relative "heaviness" of objects with a CONSTANT volume.

Therefore, to add more molecules to himself, Apocalypse would alter his volume, not his density, because he would be adding more flesh to flesh. The only way to change his density would be to alter the type of molecules/matter he consisted of, which would mean altering his atomic structure.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's scientifically unsound demi.


lol. In reference to the debate itself, I mentioned in an earlier post that Thanos has shown high level matter manipulation abilities before, as well as telepathic feats, both of which are Poccy weaknesses.



That's frequently true - but not always. You can actually change how closely packed the molecular structure is to increase the density. For example, high-density polyethylene vs. low-density polyethylene. They're both the same molecule, but high-density polyethylene is more closely packed.



I see what you're saying and I agree with you. I guess the real question, then is, when Apocalypse draws "additional mass" to increase density and all that, what exactly IS this "additional mass"? Are they molecules? Atoms? What are they molecules or atoms of?



Not exactly. A human can increase his density by working out, adding more muscle mass to replace the fat (since muscle outweights fat). His volume will increase somewhat, but you can double your strength without doubling your size. I imagine a similar principle takes place at will with Poccy, depending on what this "additional mass" is. There have only been two examples of his strength increasing in comics - one was when he turned HUGE, and the other was when he "bulked up" during the X-cutioner storyline. There haven't been any examples of him increasing his strength without physically growing or bulking up. So he can increase his density, but to increase his strength to extreme levels, it would appear that he'd HAVE to alter his size to accommodate. That suggest a molecular, rather than an atomic control, as your own explanations have proven.

Apoc: foolish children...my power is immense...let them come..let Wolverine come, Let Jean Grey Summers come, let Rogue and Gambit come, let Magneto come, Let even Xavier come...let them come and feel the power which is....Apocalypse

Interesting point there. The thing in this scenario though is that you aren't actually changing the composition of the actual compounds in the body, just the ratio of the amounts that equal the sum by reducing fat and increasing muscle, and since muscle (protein) is a more dense compound than fat, the same volume of fat molecules and protein molecules have different weight values. You aren't controlling the 'density' of your body, you are controlling the sum of your parts. Like replacing a fiberglass bumper with a steel bumper of the same size on your car. Both have the same size, volume, and dimensions, but the material of the object has changed, and the steel bumper has a higher weight value (and strength) due to the density of the steel, not the amount of steel.

I wish I could have conversations like this with my friends. It gets boring talking about basketball, hip hop, and booty 24/7.

.

Apocalypse atomic body structure permits vast amounts of power and endurance. making him extremely powerful.

sombody please help me this crap is killing me
please help

Apoc: you want help child? I shall give you rest...eternal rest...hahahahhahahahhahaha (hahahahahahahaha)

Originally posted by illadelph12
Interesting point there. The thing in this scenario though is that you aren't actually changing the composition of the actual compounds in the body, just the ratio of the amounts that equal the sum by reducing fat and increasing muscle, and since muscle (protein) is a more dense compound than fat, the same volume of fat molecules and protein molecules have different weight values. You aren't controlling the 'density' of your body, you are controlling the sum of your parts. Like replacing a fiberglass bumper with a steel bumper of the same size on your car. Both have the same size, volume, and dimensions, but the material of the object has changed, and the steel bumper has a higher weight value (and strength) due to the density of the steel, not the amount of steel.


I agree. But controlling the sum of your parts, in turn, controls its density. Poccy calling upon this "extradimensional mass" could give him extremely dense...mass that increases durability and strength. That, presumably, would take the place of fat and muscle the way working out replaces fat with muscle. The net effect is the same. Either way, unless we know what this "mass" is, we can only speculate. And unless we know specific instances in which some part of his body changed to another substance (except energy blasts, which are Celestial), we can't assume that he's able to exert atomic control, at least not beyond being able to form molecules and compounds. But the base elements would always be the same.



Oh, believe me - I know. I know. lol.

Not that there's anything wrong with basketball mind you. But my Knicks suck, so there's not much to be happy about other than Kobe getting played every night.



Explain.



Try an enema. Or a laxative.

Missed this first time around:



Not exactly.

To lift something obviously you need either physical strength or another means of creating a source of directional locomotion. An organic body can only lift what it's muscle mass will allow through strength unless re-inforced by other means (in comics: telekinesis, magnetism, power cosmic, solar powered bio-matrix, etc.). A skinny 4 year old child is not going to lift a car because that's beyond his strength capacity due to inherrent muscle mass. Apocalypse can increase his muscle mass (the amount of his protein molecules) to lift large objects, or, as he has done on occasion, he could morph a portion of himself (usually his arms) into a crane-like robotic arm to strengthen his grip or smack someone up.

You're a Knicks fan too? I used to live in NY till I was about 10 (E. 35 & Flatbush, BK). Been down since Starks was rockin the high top fade (and choking). Did you see the way we put it on Boston last night? Jamal Crawford did this sick dunk. If only we were playing for something.

I agree with everything you said...what was it of mine you were correcting? Poccy has increased muscle mass, but it's showed in a physical change (the "bulk up". He's also morphed like you said...but in both those cases, he altered his size, as I said.

Originally posted by illadelph12
You're a Knicks fan too? I used to live in NY till I was about 10 (E. 35 & Flatbush, BK). Been down since Starks was rockin the high top fade (and choking). Did you see the way we put it on Boston last night? Jamal Crawford did this sick dunk. If only we were playing for something.

If the Knicks fought with that kind of heart every night, they'd be at least fourth seed right now. The fact that they don't (Stephan is OVERRATED) is why they're on the outside looking in.

I miss the old days, when the Knicks would suffocate everybody with defense...then get to the playoffs for their annual steamrolling by the Bulls.

I posted that before I saw your next post. My bad demi.

S'all good. I'm always replying to stuff late and screwing everything up, lol.

Yeah. Those were the days. I could live with losing to Mike. I didn't like it, but I could accept it. I looked at it as Mike defending his kingdom and we were trying to take his crown off his head. Makes it a little easier to swallow (that and that Mike's originally from Brooklyn, not NC or Chi-town). Now, when Reggie Miller did us in, I wanted to hit someone with a Pedigree. I couldn't handle that.

These Knicks nowadays don't have the heart man. Back when we had people that played all out like Oak and LJ (even with his back problems). Even Herb Williams would ball. Now it's just plain sad. These cats collecting checks. Tim Thomas talks more than he scores. What happened to this cat? We need a goon like old school Rick Mahorn from the Pistons and Oak. An edge. That's what they lack. No heart.

Oakley but the 'Ug' Thug. He played for my team and *I* was afraid of him. And I often felt it was an honor to lose to the Chicago Jordans - like the Knicks were a big part of history or something. I have a thing for dynasties; it even beats out local loyalty. I'd pubically root for the Knicks at home, but I'd secretly root for the Bulls.

But you're right - I hated losing to the Heat when Riley left, and I HATED, HATED, HATED losing to the Pacers. There was just something Reggie's cocky, smug, anorexic Shrek-looking mug that always irked the hell out of me. Especially with those god damned three pointers of death.

God I hate that man.

We are SO far off topic, lol.

And you're right about Starbury. Dude got skills, but he thinks (and 'knows') he's better than he actually plays. He reads his own press clippings like that b*tch Kobe in LA. I stay out here in Cali now actually (Oakland). I went to a Lakers/Warriors game just to boo Kobe (Warriors tickets are mad cheap). I had a sign that said "Let's go, KoB*tch, Let's Go" and everything trying to get on SportsCenter. lol

One time at a Cavs/Warriors game (02-03 season) I was there cheering for Ricky Davis when he was a Cav, had a sign that said "Rick the Ruler" (Slick Rick bite) and on the flipside said "Pretty Ricky's what they call him" (a line from "Martin" talking about Pretty Ricky Fontaine. I had Warriors fans cheering for him by the end of the game. It was hilarious. We should have picked Ricky up ourselves, he can put up points, he's just a defensive liability due to lack of effort.

lol

Yeah, we are way off topic.

lol, man. Reggie is a Olive Oyl lookin' mothaf*cka, but he got j all day and all night. Thing is he knows it. That cat can still shoot and he's geriatric now. He put up like 27 last night. I still have nightmares about that game. How do you put up 11 points in 13 seconds???

Yo, you ever see when Charles Barkley puts the picture of the Alien next to Sam Cassell on Inside the NBA (TNT). That sh*t is so hilarious. Barkley's a fool.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I went to a Lakers/Warriors game just to boo Kobe (Warriors tickets are mad cheap). I had a sign that said "Let's go, KoB*tch, Let's Go" and everything trying to get on SportsCenter. lol


Oh, so that was YOU I saw on SportsCenter doing that!

Originally posted by illadelph12

Yo, you ever see when Charles Barkley puts the picture of the Alien next to Sam Cassell on Inside the NBA (TNT). That sh*t is so hilarious. Barkley's a fool.

HAHAHAHA...mad wrong!

True, but wrong.

lol Probably not. There were a lot of people booing Kobe that night. No one can stand his arrogant ass. If you saw my sign it was me.

I can't stand Jim Gray's punk ass either.

poor Kobe now he knows how much Shaq was to that team.

look at the heat now.

Except for when he turns in the Phoenix and, along with Scott and a young Nate, killed Apocalypse in the future.

Oh wait, wrong Gray. But at least it brought everything full circle before Tron yelled at us, lol. Are there other boards on here? Like sports boards and stuff? I never did much exploring since I found this place through a google search for Magneto and Hulk.

Word kgkg. Kobe is not carrying a team on his own. He's not Mike. Mike played for rings. Kobe plays for fame. Until he grows up and realizes that, he'll never be anything without Shaq but a highlight reel and not even as good as Dominique Wilkins in his prime, let alone Jordan...

Uh... Yeah.

X-Men that is...

Not that there was anything wrong with Dominique, lol. One of the best dunkers I've ever seen...

Nique had heart. He ran with Spud Webb and was a contender.

He had JOHN CONCAK on his team!! If you can win with that walking brick on your team, you've got skills.

Not the Heart of the Universe...

But heart.

lol, ahh, basketball discussions interspersed with comicbook references. This is the life...

well basketball and comic are mixed

Shaq is superman
wade is flash
Chris benoi is Wov
etc

I don't know, for some reason, when I think of Shaq, I think more of Steel than I do Superman.

I don't know why that could be.

Could be that corny ass movie he made...

Steel = worst movie ever

Spurs will sweep the playoffs.

If Apocalypse is at full power (we have seen Apocalypse in extreme level of power and also in weak level of power like in AoA or when he needs host body, time always catch up with Apocaylpse), Apocalypse beats Thanos. I can't even see Thanos hurting him. Did you ever thought why is Marvel making Apocalpyse always old, weak power of energy, beacuse Apocalypse is just too powerful to walk the Earth at full powers all the time. Apocalypse can increase at such size that Thanos would look insect, he would gain such size and weight thus he would suprass Thanos in strength and beside strenght he would give him such advagnateg in mass that Thanos would be in such big trouble. Apocalypse would have every physicall advantage. Apcalypse wins.

Oh my gah, go away noob. Do you know who Thanos is?

Tyrant, Beyonder, or Odin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Apocalypse
Tyrant, Beyonder, or Odin >>Thanos

Thanos is older than Apocalypse.

Too powerful to walk the Earth? Onslaught, 8th Day Juggernaut, Phoenix, Shaman Nate, Odin, Galactus, Demigorge, Set, Chthon, etc. have all walked the Earth. Marvel has all allowed them to do it, but not a fully powered Apocalypse? I guess Apocalypse is more powerful than the people mentioned.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Do you know who Thanos is? Fair question.

Xplosive, do you know who Thanos is? If you tell me he's some big Titan with lotsa muscles, it's okay...I'll know instantly where you're coming from.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Oh my gah, go away noob. Do you know who Thanos is?

Tyrant, Beyonder, or Odin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Apocalypse
Tyrant, Beyonder, or Odin >>Thanos

Thanos is older than Apocalypse.

Too powerful to walk the Earth? Onslaught, 8th Day Juggernaut, Phoenix, Shaman Nate, Odin, Galactus, Demigorge, Set, Chthon, etc. have all walked the Earth. Marvel has all allowed them to do it, but not a fully powered Apocalypse? I guess Apocalypse is more powerful than the people mentioned.

O know a lot and a lot who Thanos is, you ony don't think with your own head, that is you problem. Galactus walked the Earth, he was always defeted, Apocalypse was defetd, why you mentione Juggeenaut, Phoenix not only walked the Earth, but also was close to destroy galaxy. I alredy don't repsect that forum when I read Galactus would beat Phoenix, maybe easily and... and people only said maybe if Phoenix woudl sum all of powers of PF, than maybe could defeta Galactus. Galactus doens't posses not close, not close, not close and not close, so extremely, extremely far from Phoenix Force full powers, the point is, that you generally people don't think with your own head. And when I read Spider-Man would beat Collossus or whn you say Spider-Man beat Juggernaut, cause writters done that, you must think with your own head and you will realize that Spdier-Man doens't stand a chance against Juggernaut or Collossus and Galactus doesn't stand a chance v PF, and Apocalypse easily stand a chance vs Thanos, again you must think with your own head.

"I am as far beyond mortals as they are beyond mutants...I am Apocalypse"

im one who strongly believes that Apocalypse has a strength advantage. The drawback is that he only manipulates one form of energy, one that is unique to him, and he has to produce from his own body, whereas thanos is more like a conduit for all sorts of cosmic energy that permeates the entire universe. just picture a small tap stuck into a gigantic dam of comsic energy or something(best i could come up with) thats why thanos seemilngly is the favorite for he has all that raw power at his disposal. but the fact remains that apoc IMO has more personal power, he dosnt have the luxury of manipulating cosmic energy and he is still a top dog.

And apocalypse for all intents and puprpose is a being OF pure energy, pretty much like the Cyborg Superman where is offensive capabilites are only limited by his imagination. Xplosive does make a valid point, Apocalypse has never truly been at his full power going up against anybody. its always the same thing with portaying him. something fancy and dramatic like he is in a long slumber and his earlier minions have left ancient keys and clues all over the world to unlock his tomb then anyone who frees him will get a reward and blah blah blah. and the Xmen or Nate try to stop them.

and even if they dont stop the minions they always run into apocalypse when he just woke up from his slumber not giving him a chance to preapre any defenses or when he's just about to receive his power up, and they blast at him b4 he could jump in his rejuvination chamber thingy. but him at his full power would be more of a match for thanos than everyone thinks.

in fact the only reason i concede that thanos would win is becauase he is immortal and he knows he can take anybody on free of care. take that option away and it is a very distinct possibilty that thanos would be dust under apoc's feet.

"I shall crush Thanos like an insect...a foolish little insect"

Originally posted by Mainstream
"I am as far beyond mortals as they are beyond mutants...I am Apocalypse"

True, but that was Apocalypse from cartoon.

And it's even said that Apocalypse full scope of power has never been revealed.

Beyond the whole power analysis thing, Apocalypse's durability is questionable. He hasn't ALWAYS been weakened when the X-men have fought him. Remember, Poccy was an X-FACTOR villain for years. And Poccy, fighting along side ALL of his horsemen, couldn't beat Cyclops, a de-powered Jean, Angel, Beast and an Iceman who didn't have any control over his powers. Do you think Thanos would need four henchmen fighting with him....to get a draw? Against THAT team?

Poccy is good at manipulating his body to avoid getting hit, but I notice that once he gets hit, he's hurt pretty easily. And he's been torn apart a little more easily than someone who wants to play with the big boys should be - Phoenix did him in, Cyclops did him in, Magneto did him in, he was killed pretty quickly in the future.

No. Too many low showings.

Yes, demi is correct.

Power and durability aside, if you compare the two by analyzing their accomplishments, Apocalypse is nothing more than an insect compared to Thanos.

Like I said before in this thread, just because a *bio* says Apoc possesses certain powers, you really can't believe it until it's been displayed...and he's NEVER lived up to the hype that people have created for him. Thanos has, and will continue to do so whenever they decide to bring him back.

Poor Apocalypse.