Midicholorians: A second look at Episode 3??

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southtownbluz
Heya, my first thread and I want your opinions.

I've thought much over the choice of including a description of a biological explanation of the force. Clearly, most people (myself included) were happy enough knowing that it was there. Period. All it required was faith and it made it much more mystical that way.

But "microscopic lifeforms inside our cells, etc. etc." What was all that about. So I started to think.

Palpatine looks disfigured and I've always thought that it was a result of the darkside of the force. Anakin in the new trailer (maybe it was just my tv guys) looked as though his skin was a bit pale, heading towards that skin color of the emperor. His eyes have obviously undergone a genetic change. So perhaps this was a clever description laid down as foreshadow of some explanations that would take place in Episode 3 by Sidious. Perhaps it will be further explained, or perhaps Qui-gon's statements were explanation enough. But I think that has a great deal to do with the physical changes perceived through the realization of the Darkside. It's interesting that among these lifeforms exist darker lifeforms or perhaps there are biological or psychic implications that these lifeforms can be altered, hence "Unnatural".

Think about it. Food for thought.

DCLXVI
Hmm.
Interesting.
And this isn't a worthless thread, too. Good job! eek!

BAILY
Interesting take indeed.. me likey

Mist
Oooohhh....i think im gonna like this thread. maybe midicholorians react violently against dark side usage? but then dooku's not affected.
hmm....

TheElectricFox
Yeah i mentioned the same Idea of "you look like the way you feel inside" in a recent research paper for Philosophy. The Philosopher Descartes had the same general idea about human thought 400 years prior to Star Wars.

DarthLithic
George has long used old text, and old thought for the basis of the SW stories. I find this thought interesting. kinda like in Excorcist, how the little girl is changed physically by the evil power within her. kinda the same thought

ArthasKnight
Ah, a new thread that doesn't suck!

I never likd the idea of midichlorians myself, I thought they killed the relogious aspect of the Force by giving it a biological explanation. Kinda like the theory of evolution killing the whole "God created the world and human beings" kinda thing. But I digress...

This sounds intriguing, the fact that the midichlorians respond to a person turning toward the dark side. If you have anything more to say on this, southtownbluz, I'd like to hear it.

Velcro_Boy
anakin didnt look pale to me.

smoker4
I thought he looked pale in the obi duel bits of the trailer

XX Emperor XX
Awesome theory...As we know the there are two forces, the light side and the dark side. Perhaps like u suggested southtownbluz when you tap into the dark side of the force your body does in fact go under some physical changes because of the fact you are tapping into a power thats so great your body transforms and thus considered "unnatural" by the jedi. Remember what Palps says in the trailer "learn to know the dark side of the force and you shall achieve a power greater than any Jedi" Maybe the dark side just gives you such immense power that your body has trouble controlling it, and makes the dark side stronger, but b/c of the fact the light side of the force just has the "will of the force" on its side it allows it to prevail over the dark side and why Yoda told luke the dark side isn't stronger.

xeous
Right, Jedi feel the will of the force and carry out what it wants.

Sith manipulate the force to do what they want.

Interesting theory, BTW.

DarkYoda
(In Obi-Wan voice) Very Interesting! big grin

southtownbluz
Additionally, whether biological augmentation or careful psychic meditation, the distortion of the physical body can be proportionate to the strength of the user.....or perhaps, the midichlorian count. Anakin was a newbie, clearly powerful, but not trained adeptly enough to be as disfigured the Emperor. This would ring true for both Count Dooku and Maul. Both were apprentices, mind you. So I would deduce that time brings a greater disfigurement as well as a more in depth understanding of its nature.

Probably why Dooku can use force lightning. Longer time to train on the Dark Side, 10+ years to be exact. smile

Cascador
Actually, I don't believe there are two forces...there is just the Force. They name it the dark side of the Force because it's the way you dissobey the will of the Force and use the Force on an unnatural way. You use the Force to have powers which the Force did not intend to create. The way it changes your physical state depends how deep you tap in the dark side of the Force and how strong you are in te Force in general. Dooku was kinda neutral cause he still considered himself a Jedi altho he used the dark side but he did not have the hatred, the anger to transform. Anakin did have hatred and anger and he used the dark side so much that his eyes and skin changed. That is why Dooku didn't change. He was more political and just didn't agree with the Jedi and wanted to destroy them not out of hatred but political reasons. Anakin wanted to destroy them out of hate, so he tapped deeper in the dark side than Dooku did

southtownbluz
How powerful Anakin must have been to be changed in such a short amount of time!

XX Emperor XX
Im not disagreeing that the dark side can transform you physically over a period of time, but hasn't been said that the emperor becomes disfigured at the hands of windu? and not by tapping into the dark side

Cascador
he becomes more misfigured, he was already misfigured.

southtownbluz
I don't buy into the whole Mace Windu disfigured Palpy. Sounds cheesy. I think that the shock to himself snapped him out of his ability to control his body at a molecular (or medichlorianic) level.

Think about it: The Dark Side would have to be a power that taps into the very substance of the midichlorians. A Sith might, with enough power, be able to control his own genetic structure, to a small degree. Hiding the hideous aftereffects (namely dermal appearance) of the Dark Side.

Not unlike small-scale shapeshifting. SMALL SCALE. I'm not saying he could assume the appearance of Padme. Just clean up the appearance a little.

Cascador
you saw yourself at ep VI, that he almost looked like a lizard. That's because he was now emperor and their was no purpose to hide his true appearance. The Dark Side of the Force changes your appearance, simply like palpatine says...It's unnatural, which can't be healthy.
It's like drugs.

XX Emperor XX
Maybe the whole dark side changing your appreance is true like said before only Sidious is greatly disformed because he's been tapping into the dark side for so long, and maybe he can hide his appreance, but after the fight with Windu, Windu conflicts damage on his face preventing Palps from ever hiding his true identity

southtownbluz
That, Emperor, or he doesn't really give a crap. After all, he becomes the Emperor, so his "clean" appearance might have only been kept to not attract attention to himself. Who's to know that the Jedi haven't seen a similar disfiguration in Sith previously? He might have easily given himself away.

Also, he needed to keep a clean face for Anakin as to not frighten him away. I'm thinking only after his seduction did he see Palpy's true form. By then it didn't matter.

Then again, who knows, maybe Anakin sees it early on and thinks it looks hot. LOL

just kidding guys XD

DrSuperfresh
"maybe midicholorians react violently against dark side usage? but then dooku's not affected."

who knows, maybe dooku USED to look like cindy crawford.

Captain REX
I think that is a very good theory, Southtown!

Could be true; there are the minor changes to appearance in KOTR...

DCLXVI
True 'dat, REX....

Mist
ok, getting the eu crap outta the way, what about all the previous sith lords during the golden age of the sith? none of them seem pretty screwed as palpatine, and they are like sith in their prime.

it would be good if palpatine said something like hes been using the darkside since he was young or something. then you could see how long hes been using it and how badly it has twisted him.

or not....watever.

southtownbluz
Good question, Mist. I don't know much about the EU so I couldn't answer. My guess on the differences of this theory and the inhouse production work from LucasArts is merely coincidental, since they've never been alluded to before. Perhaps the EU work isn't restricted because it's not necessarily canon. That or these particular deformations are related to humanlike species and wouldn't affect some alien races, i.e. Maul. Although, I think the issue with Maul was more of inexperience than anything else.

Might sound like a cheap excuse, but then there's also the issue of midichlorian count/power. Even Maul had to train for some time, although I'm not sure how long his training was. Obviously, he was young and unable to use Force lightning. Possibly, it wasn't even possible due to his midichlorain count. And Dooku, with all his prior knowledge of the force, still had no degredation genetically after Dark Force training. As it was explained before, it could have been due to a political stance versus outright evil. Either way, his knowledge combined with exposure to the Force made it possible to weild force lightning. Although, the genetic repercussions were abated for one reason or another.

I think Palpy and Anakin represent hatred and evil in there "purest" forms. They were both raw power, with Anakin coming along with an even higher potential and midi-count. Hence, GL's comment that Anakin becomes pure evil. The two of them dominated a universe, a feat not referenced in any documentations of Star Wars history. None that I know of, at least.

A unique case, the two of them, but there are references that could link the midichlorian theory. All of the Sith have displayed either physical deformations (whether as mild as Anakin/Palpatine/Maul's eyes or as extreme as Palpy's face and Anakin's skin) or unatural force abilities, i.e. Dooku/Palpatine's force lightning.

Albeit that raises a question of Anakin's ability to use force lightning in the game. It could be creative freedom or a progressive based system, and all this might even have merit in the game.

Jedi Priestess
South! eek! Excellent thread man! thumbsup And I like your theory. Anakin looks pretty ragged to me in ROTS.

Mist
Originally posted by southtownbluz

I think Palpy and Anakin represent hatred and evil in there "purest" forms. They were both raw power, with Anakin coming along with an even higher potential and midi-count. Hence, GL's comment that Anakin becomes pure evil. The two of them dominated a universe, a feat not referenced in any documentations of Star Wars history. None that I know of, at least.


Thats true i suppose. I suppose they could rely more on using their hatred and anger physically, as previous sith (after the rule of two and secrecy) couldnt really do much except plan out and execute small things without being noticed.

And the golden age sith were in the middle of a war against the jedi, so they probably didnt have a lot of time to focus their abilities to full capability, whereas anakin and palpatine pretty much own everyone in the galaxy, and have the clones to assault the jedi.

meh...who knows, this might turn into an unanswered question like yoda's species.

((The_Anomaly))
this makes perfect sense to me, the dark side has an effect on the Midicholorians in ur cells, and makes u "become unatural" looking cause it deformes ur skin etc.

good job!

Jedi Priestess
I just saw Mist's signature! ROTFLMAO hysterical

Mist
*bows to the priestess*

Jedi Priestess
*hmmm I sense a disturbance in the Force, someone is fishing for points* wink

Mist
another 50 perhaps?

Mist
Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I just saw Mist's signature! ROTFLMAO hysterical

come on, thats gotta be worth at least 50!

Jedi Priestess
Granted that was pretty fecking funny. OK 50 it is. smile

Mist
YES! as i recall, the count is now 175? only 775 more...and ill have that planet.....

Darth Plagueis
Has it occurred to anyone that from what we have been allowed to see, Anakins post-burn appearance matches up nicely with the revealed Empire and ROTJ shots...with 20 some odd years of natural aging! What I mean is that the Anakin we see in the original trilogy is scarred and artificial from the events we will all see unfold in Ep3....but not seemingly affected by 22 some odd years of constant Sith power use in the same way as Palps.....when the helmet comes off in ROTJ, I think that we are supposed to correlate this with a now 42 (give or take) year old version of the guy we will bid farewell to in Ep3.....but realistiacally, he has been EVIL sith for 20 years...Alderraan is just the most recent atrocity by the time we catch up with him....but he is not all "evilled out".......why?

Jazzman_78
Originally posted by Darth Plagueis
Has it occurred to anyone that from what we have been allowed to see, Anakins post-burn appearance matches up nicely with the revealed Empire and ROTJ shots...with 20 some odd years of natural aging! What I mean is that the Anakin we see in the original trilogy is scarred and artificial from the events we will all see unfold in Ep3....but not seemingly affected by 22 some odd years of constant Sith power use in the same way as Palps.....when the helmet comes off in ROTJ, I think that we are supposed to correlate this with a now 42 (give or take) year old version of the guy we will bid farewell to in Ep3.....but realistiacally, he has been EVIL sith for 20 years...Alderraan is just the most recent atrocity by the time we catch up with him....but he is not all "evilled out".......why?

One explanation could be that when a force user returns to the light side, they lose their deformities. Remember, when Luke removed Vader's helmet, he had already returned to the Light (at least that's my understanding). In ESB, although we saw the back of Vader's head w/ scar, we never see his face.
Another thought. Age affects different people's faces differently, some better and some worse. Perhaps different Sith are affected differently by the use of the Dark Side.
Jst my thoughts.

jediwilldaddy
here's what im thinking on that.. when anakin becomes vader, he is really just a kid still.. then all this sh@t happens to him and now he is disfigured and requires this suit to live which is something i have always believed to vaders crutch and the leash that palps has on vader to control him, hence the statement " i must obey my master" imagine if anakin/vader laying on the or table being transformed into this machine has some regret of the actions that led to his predicament.. perhaps he feels like he could have listened a little more and not been such a jackass.. he would most likely feel trapped or stuck in this new role that he didn't really read the job desription on before he signed up.. in the end i think it would make all a little pissed off if we had to follow some old guy around and do his bidding and kiss his a$$. im almost positive that from that moment the conflict that luke spoke about with vader began.. i believe vader was looking for a way out from the beginning , however he was going about it the wrong way.. vader probably thought that his way out from under the emperor was for him to be destroyed because at least then he could have some sense of controling his own destiny again.. sadly his only way out was to sacrifice himself which he gladly did to save his son from his own fate.. my point is that vader never deformed like papls because the conflict was to strong within him and he never really gave himself completely to the darkside as we have thought before..

Darth Plagueis
Hmmmm...going back to the altered DVD versions though, Anakins' force ghost (is there an "official" term for this phenomenon?) has been altered to reflect Haydens version, suggesting....well, suggesting what exactly???? His apparition reppresents how he looked decades before his death......hmmm...troubling the future is,,,,

Mist
yeah, they shoulda kept the old guy in, at least we could accept that was what anakin shoulda been like without the darkside. but now, bleh. too much hayden.

Darth Plagueis
I so agree, and have we even been given a reason for this change?? Yoda and Obi look like they did at the time of their deaths....

Darth Plagueis
The very end of ROTJ (newest verion) should have been like " oh hell, we remember YOU! And then they beat him down with rocks and twigs.

Mist
maybe its coz anakin went back to how he was BEFORE he turned to the darkside.

Mist
Originally posted by Darth Plagueis
The very end of ROTJ (newest verion) should have been like " oh hell, we remember YOU! And then they beat him down with rocks and twigs.

laughing
and then the ghosts of hundreds of Jedi come back as well and start kicking him on the ground.

Jazzman_78
If he wanted to replace Shaw for continuity, so be it. But, Lucas could have at least had Hayden in aging makeup, to look in his late 40's. I'm just thankful that he didn't do more than remove eybrows and recolor Shaw's eyes for the Vader death scene. I mean, thank God Luke didn't pull away Vader's mask to reveal Hayden's face!

Darth Plagueis
Originally posted by Mist
laughing
and then the ghosts of hundreds of Jedi come back as well and start kicking him on the ground. I love it!!

Captain REX
Indeed, they should have made Anakin look a tad more aged than 22 (his age as of ROTS). ROTJ is over 20 years later, after all. He should have been 45...

...and the Emperor was in his 90's... stick out tongue

Mist
Mace comes in "payback time, Biatch!"

Imaginary
nono Write your essay, Mist.

Captain REX
If this midichlorian thing is true, then I want to see what side of the Force Mace is using to make himself black... stick out tongue

Mist
laughing

and what makes plo koon ugly
laughing

Captain REX
Allergic reaction to the Force?

Mist
looks like he sneezed and his brain flew out and attached to his face.

Arsenal
I think that if they were editing the end of ROTJ with the ghosts, they could have at least added some more Jedi from the prequels, like Mace for instance. This could be do to the rumor about Qui Gon being the one who explains about becoming one with the force and some jedi never getting to learn about it. Great theory by the way southtown.

Telemicus
Originally posted by Darth Plagueis
Hmmmm...going back to the altered DVD versions though, Anakins' force ghost (is there an "official" term for this phenomenon?) has been altered to reflect Haydens version, suggesting....well, suggesting what exactly???? His apparition reppresents how he looked decades before his death......hmmm...troubling the future is,,,,

Great thread bud, really interesting reading!

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but just picking up on this...Would it not have been a good idea to get Ewan to do all the Obi-wan ghosts in ESB and ROTJ? It would have tied the prequals together nicely seeing young Obi talking to Yoda again? Luke might have been a but wtf though....

Another thing, why does Sid have to 'change' in Ep III?
I thought it would be plausable for the dark side to twist your appearence over time explaning the differences between Ep III and IV?

DARTH STEVIOUS
So do u think Darth Maul looked different before he turned to the dark side i wonder what he looked like.

Jedi Priestess
Originally posted by Telemicus
Great thread bud, really interesting reading!

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but just picking up on this...Would it not have been a good idea to get Ewan to do all the Obi-wan ghosts in ESB and ROTJ? It would have tied the prequals together nicely seeing young Obi talking to Yoda again? Luke might have been a but wtf though....

?

I think that wouldnt have looked right to change Obi-Wan's look. It's been said that Hayden was inserted in there because thats how Anakin looked when he ceased to be the good man that was Anakin Skywalker and became Darth vader if you get my drift. Using that logic it makes perfect sense to me. smile

And I like to think Maul always looked that bad ass. There was no reason for him to alter his appearance. But I do think the tats came later in his life, closer to the time he became Sids apprentice.

DarthLithic
Originally posted by XX Emperor XX
Maybe the whole dark side changing your appreance is true like said before only Sidious is greatly disformed because he's been tapping into the dark side for so long, and maybe he can hide his appreance, but after the fight with Windu, Windu conflicts damage on his face preventing Palps from ever hiding his true identity

I think it's more that he has no reason to hide his appearance anymore. He's basically won the struggle between good and evil at this point. I would thing that there is a certain amout of effort to maintain his appearance, and after revealing himself durring the Windu fight, there is no longer a need to change his appearance after this point.

southtownbluz
Here's my theory on Hayden's ghost. I spent about 15 minutes writing a detailed explanation, but somehow I lost the text, so I'll rewrite this, however it is extremely compiled.

Midichlorian Force Theory 101 (Condensed)

1) During Sith training, midichlorians are used as biological catalysts for unnatural metaphysical and psychic abilities. Genetic deformations appear over time, through application of this technique, even mutating the user's physical appearance. This constant expenditure of energy leaves the midichlorians barren and useless. Like dead cells. So at death, the energy lifeforce has been depleted. Result? No Sith Ghost.

2) Qui-Gon is able to return as a Force ghost because he's able to detect Anakin's power. (now, this hasn't been confirmed for episode 3, but I will seek to explain his involvement in Episode 2) Like a radar in the darkness. A light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. Anakin had more midichlorians than any lifeform, more than Yoda, the most powerful Jedi. With that much power, any converse activity by Anakin would be felt throughout the balance of the Force, like ripples in a pond. It is my theory that Anakin's actions in Episode 2 triggered Qui-Gon's interaction from beyound the grave. Clearly, this is due to his intensive emotional attachment to Anakin Skywalker. We all heard his voice in Attack of the Clones. Even in mystical theory, ghosts return to the realm of the living for some unfinished business, whether emotional ties or an insatiable lust for vengeance.

3) Anakin is able to return to the living as a Force ghost because, while his dead midichlorian cells were depleted and lifeless, he had enough midichlorians left over that were good that enabled him to retain his lifeforce energy. "There is good in him, i sense it." The good midichlorians weren't destroyed during Anakin's fall to evil, simply incubated, if I could use that word. Or maybe still. Silent.

Conversely, if we didn't apply the theory of good/bad midichlorians, we could suggest that he was only using a portion of his midichlorian count to tap into the Dark Side.

Remaining midichlorians might be like genetic imprints. Sidious is able to retain his human face while in disguise. They carry with them the genetic disposition or memory to do so.

Anakin was able to stay "young Anakin", because when he ceased to be Anakin any longer, those midichlorians that were no longer used lay dormant or still. But after death, he was able to revive due to the lifefore that existed in those cells.

I can go into more detail, but this post is looking to be a bit long.

Anyways, think it over.

Darth_Nefarus
not bad junior smile

Darth Jello
windu disfigures palpatine, it makes sense. Now Palps has legitimate evidence of an assasination attempt and sympathy from the senate against the jedi.

Darth_Nefarus
I never thought of it like that, good assumption

southtownbluz
Hmmm.

Meditate on this, I will.

Arsenal
Southtown you are very wise.

J-Unit
There Is Only One Force Not Two, Common Two Forces Darkside And Lightside Thats clean BS...The One That Posted This Comment Sucks...It depends on How The Force Wants To Act With The Force Users...If The Sith Have Used It And Concured It Then The Force Is With Them If Not It's With The Jedi's

southtownbluz
J-Unit> It's already been established that there is only one Force. I think he was a little off in his description, but he knows there's only The Force and not 2 forces.


BUt, I want to know what you think of this theory. The mace vs palpatine makes for a great finale or battle, but do you really think Mace disfigures Palpatine so that he looks like a totallly different person??

Really, this is coming out in a couple of months, so I definitely want to get involved in The Last Star Wars film of all time.

Is Lucas on point or is he just being lazy with plot points? My evidence points to Lucas actually having a craft in this. And even with Dooku's gay fight in Episode 2, i still have respect for Lucas. I got a chance to see the raw footage Lucas recorded in episode 2 and honestly, althought heavily cut, the footage in episode 2 (lightsaber duel specifically) WAS INDEED WHACK. For real. It was slow and uneventful.

Hopefully, Episode 3 proves differently.

J-Unit
Well They Say That Anakin Thus Get Darker Bit By Bit When He Each Time Turns Down This Dark Path So Everything Can Happen....And Yeah He Looked A Little Bit Pailed Indeedy

DenKi
J-Unit,

Stop using caps everything u idoit.

tpaquin
Yeah, that's really annoying.

I think that this has value. I've though a lot about why Dooku lacked the "eyes" thing, but since Anakin's midiclorian count pales in comparison to his, it seems likely that he would be manipulated physically much earlier, in that way.

DarthLithic
If you read the book, Anakin Hasn't slept for quite some time, due to his dreams. I think that has something to do with it, but I agree, I think the use of the dark energies of the force takes a physical toll as well. Very interesting point.

Milosz006
Vader's appearance in Epi 6 is clearly changed by the dark side. Unless you wanna argue getting burned in lava somehow makes you pale. Remember that in KOTOR the more evil your character becomes the more pale and evil looking they get, so I'm sure it's a possiblity. I don't think Sidious ends up the way he does by some redirected lightning.

southtownbluz
Well, it appears that Palpatine's face was indeed disfigured by Mace's bolts, but it looks like I was right: The Midichlorian theory did play a larger part than what people expected.

astrofan428
Originally posted by Milosz006
Vader's appearance in Epi 6 is clearly changed by the dark side. Unless you wanna argue getting burned in lava somehow makes you pale. Remember that in KOTOR the more evil your character becomes the more pale and evil looking they get, so I'm sure it's a possiblity. I don't think Sidious ends up the way he does by some redirected lightning.

Maybe that is from having no exposure to a sun in 20 years.

ragesRemorse
I believe the introduction to midicholorians was a star wars killer in itself. I remember the first time qui gon mentioned midicholorians. My mouth was on the floor, and i felt like i was watching a spoof of star wars. George doesnt feel the need to expalin anything else in star wars from hyperdrive, to light sabers, to spaceships, he doenst even bother to answer the questions he leaves open in his other movies, but he has a desire to exaplain the single aspect which the star wars world revolves around.

George buddy, your a washed up hack, you can take your midicholorians and shove them up your a** Happy Dance

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