Agnostic and Atheist?

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moonwalker741
Whats the difference between them, Agnostic and Atheism?

Tex
Atheists do not believe in god.
Agnostics dont believe god exists but wont rule out the possibility that he might exist.

debbiejo
I guess it's better to be an agnostic..I'd say..

Better to have an open mind about the possibilities

FeceMan
Originally posted by debbiejo
I guess it's better to be an agnostic..I'd say..

Better to have an open mind about the possibilities
You're probably going to be hammered for that one.

MC Mike
Originally posted by debbiejo
I guess it's better to be an agnostic..I'd say..

Better to have an open mind about the possibilities

Not really, Atheism means you KNOW there is no god. (Atheists don't "believe" anything.) Agnosticism means you don't know whether there is or isn't a god. And religious, of course, means you believe in a god.

MC Mike
Oh and

- - Religious Forum - -

Jackie Malfoy
Originally posted by Tex
Atheists do not believe in god.
Agnostics dont believe god exists but wont rule out the possibility that he might exist.

I think I am an agnostic then.JM

Ou Be Low hoo
Originally posted by debbiejo
I guess it's better to be an agnostic..I'd say..

Better to have an open mind about the possibilities

Oh yeah...sure! It's better to have no sense of conviction and just spend your whole life walking around hedging bets! Great life! Woo! Go you!

Clovie
Originally posted by moonwalker741
Whats the difference between them, Agnostic and Atheism? atheist is claiming not to believe in God and kinda fights with ppl who believe
agnostic believes there might be some 'force' but no one is able to prove its exstance. so he doesn't call it God

Adam_PoE
Atheism is the belief that there is no god or the absence of a belief that there is a god.

An agnostic is one who is doubtful of the existence of god, but does not profess true atheism.

moonwalker741
Originally posted by MC Mike
Oh and

- - Religious Forum - -

Where is that, wasnt it always here in the GD forum?

KharmaDog
I'm a dyslexic agnostic, I often question whether there is a dog.

MC Mike
Originally posted by KharmaDog
I'm a dyslexic agnostic, I often question whether there is a dog.

I hope you did that on purpose. laughing out loud

big gay kirk
Atheism is the belief Not the knowledge, as it is impossible to prove a negative...) that there is no God or higher power...
Agnosticism (against or without knowledge...) is not the belief that there may or may not be a god, but the belief that if there is a god it would be impossible for humans to understand or have knowledge of that god's aims, ideals, plans, etc... which is why many of us divide them into Agnostics (capital A) who believe the above, and agnostics (lower case a) who are the "there might be, or there might not be" brigade.... in many ways, agnostics are the same as christians.... (as opposed to Christians...)

blalocklover
Well depending on yours answers I might open another thread but let keep as:

I understand what is a agnostic. Can we divide atheists in a way that separate a) the "bully" ones (let's say) that constantly remind others on their condition an often debates with religious.
b) the ones that think that there is no point in discussing among believers (when it's usually a debate biased and far away from a theology conversation or such thing) and if they debate "follow" the believer and argue about/against his/her side, I mean only discuss "religious contradictions" and not depart from a: "Ok I'm a atheist so..." I think this kind can even dig in a whole debate without even mention his/her beliefs, only because it doesn't matter.

What leads me to this, just a quote "atheists are a fundamentalist sect" It was just only a sarcasm but most of the time you find the first kind and not the second one. Is any classification or argue like that (perhaps It's not a big deal anyway) Just quoted from Corran in another thread "Atheism is a non-prophet organisation."

Other topic what about people like S. Hawking that refutes God existence only based in something like "God could not have place in a Universe like this one (referring only to conditions entropy and that stuff)" I think He matches with agnostics or closer

debbiejo
Originally posted by KharmaDog
I'm a dyslexic agnostic, I often question whether there is a dog.


This one made me laugh.. laughing out loud rolling on floor laughing blink

debbiejo
[

Phoenix
Originally posted by moonwalker741
Whats the difference between them, Agnostic and Atheism?

I think it is that athiests don't believe in God at all, and agnostics say that they will believe in God if He is proved to them

Moonunit
OMG! Like Athism is like so like totally ya! and like I am so like an agnostic and everything cos like god so has like a white beard and like totally sits on clouds!

peterKSL
lmao!!! or are you trying to be sarcastic there? confused

Magee
How can u maybe beleive in God? You either do or u dont, not in between. To me an agnostic is someone with not enough faith to follow a religion so he/she takes the easy way out. Doesnt want to go to church, pray or wat have u but doesnt dismiss that there might be a higher power in the universe, sad.

I for one am an Atheist and choose not to beleive in God(s) and stick to science and facts.

Shadwofathought
I respect your choice on atheism but I just want to correct you in the fact that most parts of science have no clue what facts are.

Adam_PoE

Magee
As stated by Alan_PoE most science is based on facts, experiments and tests are used to try and find out the truth instead of guessing or just simply using the imagination... Like most religions.

Phoenix
How can science deal with facts when those facts are often proved to be wrong? e.g. a thousand years ago, it was a fact that the earth was flat

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Phoenix
How can science deal with facts when those facts are often proved to be wrong? e.g. a thousand years ago, it was a fact that the earth was flat

The idea that the earth is flat was never a fact, it was a hypothesis. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Shadwofathought
We know NOW that it was never a fact. As far as they could prove the earth revolved around the sun and the earth was flat. We've since learned otherwise. But who's to say that all the "facts" they're dealing with now aren't in the same category that they'll be proven to be false later.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Shadwofathought
We know NOW that it was never a fact. As far as they could prove the earth revolved around the sun and the earth was flat. We've since learned otherwise. But who's to say that all the "facts" they're dealing with now aren't in the same category that they'll be proven to be false later.

Facts cannot be proven incorrect, only hypothesis and theories can. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Phoenix
Instead of rolling your eyes at us all, try to remember this is a philosophy forum not a science forum. Philosophy is to do with humans - what humans belive to be true are facts for them not hypothesis or theory. the earth is flat was a FACT for most humans, NOT a hypothesis or a theory.

WindDancer
Well said Phoenix. yes

leonheartmm
thas true pheonix but then again these scientific facts or hypothesise have some solid ground to them and are always ready to accept more convincing hypothesis, but relegion on the other hand is factless, baseless, irrational and stubborn in a sense that it doesnt accept ANY logic, which makes it completely ridiculuos.

Shadwofathought
That's not true. It always depends on who you are dealing with. I will agree that there are many religious people who refuse to accept certain "facts" and they are very irrational but that's not the case with all religious folks. Its just the stereotype. And not all scientists are willing to accept new theories (it took long enough for them to accept that the world was in fact not flat and the earth didn't revolve around the sun).

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Phoenix
Instead of rolling your eyes at us all, try to remember this is a philosophy forum not a science forum. Philosophy is to do with humans - what humans belive to be true are facts for them not hypothesis or theory. the earth is flat was a FACT for most humans, NOT a hypothesis or a theory.

What pragmatic nonsense. Facts cannot be proven incorrect if they are truly facts. If one were to believe that 1 + 1 = 3, would that then be "true" and a "fact" as well?

roll eyes (sarcastic)

^ Oh, what is this? That's right, it is an eye roll. Try to remember that "philosophy" is Latin for "love of knowledge," a study that science certainly pertains to.

peterKSL
Nice Adam!! big grin

finti
wrong, there were plenty who argued against this but they were persecuted for heresy so it became an underground knowledge by the scholars that it wasnt flat.

debbiejo
Underground society....Lets go.

sk8stuff09
ive met very few athiest, but i'd like to ask one: "how the do u think everything was created?"

gls
and what are u exactly sk8stuff?
christian?

i'm jus wondering..

Ketchuptome
Alot of ideas on his thread yes

Ignite
I'm Agnostic...have been for ages..

but recently ive been thinking about becoming an Atheist....

Agwings2010

BackFire
1. I don't know.

2. N/A

3. Dunno

4. N/A

5. To enjoy life and make it as satisfying as possible.

6. Some guy who was probably a little crazy, maybe homosexual.

7. No

8. I just don't care.

9. He seems kinda mean, killing children to get back at their parents and shit.

10. Yes

11. It was Catholic, I think, I don't remember. It was a long long time ago. I thought it was really shitty and boring. I went with one of my friends when we were young, and I had to go into sunday school with them, our teacher was a smelly sweaty woman. That's all I remember, I never went back.

Clone
1. yes

2. i dont know!

3. yes

4. i belive there is some sort of paradise in the end for the good. and a "hell" for the bad.

5. To reproduce. continue life. while living life enjoy it.

6. Jesus Christ- great powers. got into a fight with Mithra. he came out victorious.

7. nope

8. i'm scared of the truth sad lol never herd of it.

9. Powerful. doesn't really care if you believe, he is tired of trying. everybody has their limits. abusing his powers. great sense of humor. (my thoughts)

10. yes

11. I think i have been to a Cath. church with my parents. didn't like it. they made us kneel alot. made us stand up. back to kneeling. really annoying. i have also been to a Christian church. same s*it.

Mindship
Originally posted by KharmaDog
I'm a dyslexic agnostic, I often question whether there is a dog.

laughing out loud That's good.

Does God exist?
Atheist: "Definitely not."
Agnostic: "I don't know."
Pragmatic Agnostic: "I don't know...but since there are practical benefits to assuming there is an Infinite Consciousness, I'm goin' with that, especially since, if I'm wrong, when I die I'll never know it."
smile

Ushgarak
That last position there actually known as the position of the stupid agnostic, it having no internal value.

Lord Melkor
I am almost sure that there is something "higher", but I really don`t know enough to follow any religion. I believe in limited telepathy and precognition because I have something close to evidence that such things exist.

I find the concept of all-loving, all-powerful God very naive- how can we measure the omnipotent with human concepts such as "love?". If there are any "supreme beings", it is more likely that they would be incredibly alien to us, like we are towards ants.

debbiejo
I've found the same to be true also.

Mindship
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That last position there actually known as the position of the stupid agnostic, it having no internal value.

Judgment w/o clarification...doesn't sound so bright itself and certainly comes across as quite anxious that there own position might be the one needing a second look. IMO.

Ushgarak
Nope, merely contempt resulting from this being something that has already been clarified and argued about many times around here.

Quick summary: faith in a religion is only of value if genuinely held, not held simply as a 'get-out' clause. Believing in something 'just in case' is like a child holding crossed fingers behind his back trying to cover all options. It's just as childish, and it is just as useless.

It's a position that has received a severe critical mauling, all the way down to Terry Pratchett, who had someone who estolled that belief waking up in the afterlife surrounded by Gods with sharp implements who say to him "This is what we do with smart arses around here."

Douglas Adams rather more plainly puts it:

"This (idea), to me, suggests such a level of silliness and muddle that I usually edge out of the conversation rather than get sucked into it. If it turns out that I have been wrong all along, and there is a God, and if it further turns out that this kind of legalistic, behind your back, Clintonian hair splitting impressed him, then I think I would choose not to worship him anyway."

It is a position without any respect any more.

---

People should jusge by the facts, not perceived potential benefits. This is, after all, about truth. A comfortable lie is still a lie and there should be no respect for those who would deliberately choose ignorance because it is more comforting. Hence, an agnostic who chooses to believe in God for those reasons is actually at the bottom of the respect pile, below those of simple blind faith. At least the blind faith is genuine and sincere, not weasly and cowardly.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Ushgarak

People should jusge by the facts, not perceived potential benefits. This is, after all, about truth. A comfortable lie is still a lie and there should be no respect for those who would deliberately choose ignorance because it is more comforting. Hence, an agnostic who chooses to believe in God for those reasons is actually at the bottom of the respect pile, below those of simple blind faith. At least the blind faith is genuine and sincere, not weasly and cowardly. eek! ......I see your point.

Janus Marius
So do I. But Socrates and Sarte would argue that blind faith is the same as leading an unexamined life, or living on "bad faith". So really, is that that much better than being pragmatic about it?

Ushgarak
I really don't understand how anyone of intellectual stance can ever take that view (of the agnostic believing for the benefits). To choose to believe in something simply on a calculated logical equation that you would be better off that way is so totally anathema to the very point of having a faith in the first place as to defy all sense.

It's not REALLY belief at all, either.

Ushgarak
Yes, I believe it is better.

Better to leave your life unexamined than to examine it and then consciously take a decision that rejects any value you got from that examination.

Janus Marius
I was talking about you putting blind faith above simple pragmaticism. While religious pragmaticism really defeats the purpose, blind faith is somehow better? I don't really see this at all.

Ushgarak
Well, I just gave my justification.

Blind faith is really something to be pitied.

Someone who has taken the time to think about stuff and then comes up with a dumb answer has no excuse.

Janus Marius
Okay. So having no sense of examing your own life philosophy is somehow worse than coming up with a pragmatic one? Right. I gotcha.

Janus Marius
Let me elaborate- I think it's equally foolish to make both wrong decisions and no decisions at all. However, at least the pragmatic has taken a step forward and analyzed some things. The person leading by blind faith never questions, and never knows. And while ignorance may be bliss, the unexamined life isn't worth living- if I may be cliche about it.

Ushgarak
Well, there you go. My opinion is that a choice like that one is worse than not attempting to make a choice at all.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by moonwalker741
Whats the difference between them, Agnostic and Atheism? Agnostic means "without knowledge" more or less a fence sitter, they don't directly deny the existence, but they don't have a proclaimed faith either. I know several agnostics who think that an intelligent creator makes more sense, and have read all of the bible.

Mindship
Blind faith is believing w/o reason other than, "Because such-n-such says so." It accepts w/o examination. IMO, this is what die-hard theists and atheists do.

My position is based on examination of the facts available, realizing my limits, and then saying, "Hmm...now what do I do?" So I start over at square one.

1. Putting aside for the moment what is meant by "God," the question is: Does God exist? Despite what theists and atheists might profess with absolute certainty, No One Really Knows.

2. Since I can't make a decision based on fact, what other criteria might I use? Being practical, it makes sense to adopt a philosophy which best gets one through life (the fine points of one's philosophy being dependent on what one is looking for).

3. Adopting a position of "God exists" (as opposed to, "He does not exist"wink gives the following practical advantages...
I. A wider explanatory framework, which does Not have to contradict the universe as revealed by science but can supplement it (again, depending on what you mean by "God"wink.
II. An additional source of comfort and healing in times of loss and suffering.

4. In the final analysis: IF I am wrong and atheists are right--God does not exist; death = nothingness--neither of us will ever know it when we die. I can't be proven wrong. However, if I am right and atheists are wrong, I have the chance to say "Punk'd!". In either event, while alive, I have the practical advantages noted above.

Is this the answer for everyone? Of course not. Everyone's agenda is different.

Phoenix2001
I am a devoted Agnostic. I don't choose to be an Agnostic to make things easier for me but rather I choose to be an Agnostic so that I can draw my own conclusions.

I assume that most of you at one time have heard a quote that goes something like, "Read not to believe or disagree but to weigh and consider." To be an agnostic is to accept knowledge as it comes. It is the most logical way of life because none of us can ever be truthfully certain about "Truth."

It doesn't matter what any of us believe. Our beliefs do not change the truth of reality.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
I am a devoted Agnostic. I don't choose to be an Agnostic to make things easier for me but rather I choose to be an Agnostic so that I can draw my own conclusions.

I assume that most of you at one time have heard a quote that goes something like, "Read not to believe or disagree but to weigh and consider." To be an agnostic is to accept knowledge as it comes. It is the most logical way of life because none of us can ever be truthfully certain about "Truth."

It doesn't matter what any of us believe. Our beliefs do not change the truth of reality.

You should read the Lotus sutra.

debbiejo
And quantum physics books........ angel

Arachnoidfreak
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You should read the Lotus sutra.

Of the Sutras...I think the Kama Sutra is the best.

shifty

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Of the Sutras...I think the Kama Sutra is the best.

shifty

laughing That is NOT one of the Sutras of Buddha.

Have you read it? It tells about how to prevent orgasms and a lot of other really strange stuff, but it does show really good positions.

debbiejo
Yeah, there was a thread about that.........I learned quite a lot... yes embarrasment

Phoenix2001
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You should read the Lotus sutra.

Thanks. But I already know how to have sex...

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
laughing That is NOT one of the Sutras of Buddha.

Have you read it? It tells about how to prevent orgasms and a lot of other really strange stuff, but it does show really good positions.

Yeah, but some of that stuff requires double jointedness. Ack.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Thanks. But I already know how to have sex...

Ha ha, the Lotus sutra has nothing to do with sex. If you are truly open minded, you might learn something.

Phoenix2001
That's just the thing. None of us are truly anything.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
That's just the thing. None of us are truly anything.

Speak for yourself. stick out tongue

I am truly a mechanical designer, I am truly a songwriter and I am truly a Buddhist. big grin

Phoenix2001
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Speak for yourself. stick out tongue

I am truly a mechanical designer, I am truly a songwriter and I am truly a Buddhist. big grin

Congratulations.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Congratulations.

None needed... big grin

big gay kirk
I once claimed that nothing was true.... but everyone found out I was lying.....

Mindship
Originally posted by big gay kirk
I once claimed that nothing was true....

Then your statement, too, is false, in which case, everything is true, including your statement. But then, if nothing is true, your statement, too, is false, in which case, everything is true, including your statement. But then...

rolling on floor laughing

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mindship
Then your statement, too, is false, in which case, everything is true, including your statement. But then, if nothing is true, your statement, too, is false, in which case, everything is true, including your statement. But then...

rolling on floor laughing

What's your problem? It makes sense to me.vinkko

debbiejo
Originally posted by Mindship
Then your statement, too, is false, in which case, everything is true, including your statement. But then, if nothing is true, your statement, too, is false, in which case, everything is true, including your statement. But then...

rolling on floor laughing Another paradox??? blink

Jonathan Mark
Originally posted by Mindship
Then your statement, too, is false, in which case, everything is true, including your statement. But then, if nothing is true, your statement, too, is false, in which case, everything is true, including your statement. But then...

rolling on floor laughing

Man that hurts my head...

Phoenix2001
If nothing is true then how can you have truth? Nothing is nothing. Truth is something.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
If nothing is true then how can you have truth? Nothing is nothing. Truth is something.

How do you know that truth is anything at all?

Phoenix2001
Because you're living it.

Mindship
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
If nothing is true then how can you have truth? Nothing is nothing. Truth is something.

If "nothing is true" then Truth is Nothing. Nothing is the "something" Truth is. balloon

Returning to topic, sort of...
Truth for an atheist: No God.
Truth for an agnostic: Uncertainty?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Because you're living it.

Can you prove that?

Phoenix2001
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Can you prove that?

Personally, I don't think anyone can. The more that we as humans prove to be true that we once thought to be untrue only raises more questions that may not be answered.

Perhaps saying that we're living the truth is too much certainty on my part.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Personally, I don't think anyone can. The more that we as humans prove to be true that we once thought to be untrue only raises more questions that may not be answered.

Perhaps saying that we're living the truth is too much certainty on my part.

Good.

There is a real world, but sense we are limited in how we can perceive it, our understanding will always be limited. cool

The Omega
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Good.

There is a real world...

Technically we don't know that. smile
How would you prove that there IS a real world?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by The Omega
Technically we don't know that. smile
How would you prove that there IS a real world?

It is a realization that each person has to come to. There is no way to prove this, but proof is not all that important. The only thing that the realization, that there is a real world, benefits us humans, is it helps in understanding what is real and what is not. It is easy to be fooled and deluded; so if you remember that no one knows what the true reality is, then you will not be easily fooled. However, you can go too far with this idea and become diluted into thinking that nothing exists.

Bardock42
Originally posted by The Omega
Technically we don't know that. smile
How would you prove that there IS a real world?

Oh thanks, I am not the only one.

The Omega

Bardock42

Shakyamunison

WrathfulDwarf
For those who ask "If this is reality?"


If I (i.e. me, and external being from your reality) kick you in the face would you say I do not exist? Or would you say the kick doesn't exist? If you say the kick doesn't exist....then I keep kicking you on the face as much as I want and always say...."I never kick you"

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
For those who ask "If this is reality?"


If I (i.e. me, and external being from your reality) kick you in the face would you say I do not exist? Or would you say the kick doesn't exist? If you say the kick doesn't exist....then I keep kicking you on the face as much as I want and always say...."I never kick you"

I say if someone shoots you in the head, you will die. That is proof of a real world, but I don't know what that real world is.

Bardock42
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
For those who ask "If this is reality?"


If I (i.e. me, and external being from your reality) kick you in the face would you say I do not exist? Or would you say the kick doesn't exist? If you say the kick doesn't exist....then I keep kicking you on the face as much as I want and always say...."I never kick you"

That's not prove at all. The Kick might not exist. You might not exist. I might not exist. But for me it seems like i would be hurt by those kicks, and I seem to think that I don't like to be hurt.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I say if someone shoots you in the head, you will die. That is proof of a real world, but I don't know what that real world is. Sadly it isn't.

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I say if someone shoots you in the head, you will die. That is proof of a real world

But your EXPERIENCE tells you that by shooting someone they will die. Why would you deny your own experiences? Thanks to your experiences you are what you're now.

Bardock42
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
But your EXPERIENCE tells you that by shooting someone they will die. Why would you deny your own experiences? Thanks to your experiences you are what you're now.

I don't deny them. I jsut realize that they might be wrong, misleading or non-existant.

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by Bardock42
That's not prove at all. The Kick might not exist. You might not exist. I might not exist. But for me it seems like i would be hurt by those kicks, and I seem to think that I don't like to be hurt.
Sadly it isn't.

Trust me I do exist. Also you exist. And the world also exist. Step outside and look at it. Why do you just said "I might not exist?" when if fact you do exist. I'm talking to you from Los Angeles. You're in Germany. Hello bardock! This is WD talking to you!

debbiejo
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Trust me I do exist. Also you exist. And the world also exist. Step outside and look at it. Why do you just said "I might not exist?" when if fact you do exist. I'm talking to you from Los Angeles. You're in Germany. Hello bardock! This is WD talking to you! Me too, I exist.....unless you think you may have a psychological disease...then you're stuck with me... cool

WrathfulDwarf
Hi deb! You're always welcome in my reality. wink

Bardock42
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Trust me I do exist. Also you exist. And the world also exist. Step outside and look at it. Why do you just said "I might not exist?" when if fact you do exist. I'm talking to you from Los Angeles. You're in Germany. Hello bardock! This is WD talking to you!

I don't think your word will be sufficent. Also my experience won't. There will always be a slight shadow of doubt. I believe that you exist. I really do. But I can't be sure.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't think your word will be sufficent. Also my experience won't. There will always be a slight shadow of doubt. I believe that you exist. I really do. But I can't be sure. What about me??? confused

If you can't trust your 5 senses to know what is real and what is not, then what can you trust???

Bardock42
Originally posted by debbiejo
What about me??? confused

If you can't trust your 5 senses to know what is real and what is not, then what can you trust???

YOu might exist as well.

Nothing, that's the whole point.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Bardock42
YOu might exist as well.

Nothing, that's the whole point. Well that is what our senses are for to feel the realness of reality.

Bardock42
Originally posted by debbiejo
Well that is what our senses are for to feel the realness of reality.

If they exist.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Bardock42
If they exist. OHhh noooo.....only you would think of that..LOL...But they do exist....I'm feeling my keyboard with my fingers right now and I hear the keys clicking......And I'm listening to myself talk to myself also.........It must be real....

Bardock42
Originally posted by debbiejo
OHhh noooo.....only you would think of that..LOL...But they do exist....I'm feeling my keyboard with my fingers right now and I hear the keys clicking......And I'm listening to myself talk to myself also.........It must be real....

Why? Why msut it be real?

And even if your senses are real, why do you assume you can trust them?

debbiejo
Originally posted by Bardock42
Why? Why msut it be real?

And even if your senses are real, why do you assume you can trust them? Because to deny it a person would lose touch with reality.........Though I do see what you're saying, I could just be in you're dream, or you in mine......People do live that way....It's schizophrenia........and who's to say they're wrong and we're right...........Hmmm, maybe that's where the majority comes in...

Bardock42
Originally posted by debbiejo
Because to deny it a person would lose touch with reality.........Though I do see what you're saying, I could just be in you're dream, or you in mine......People do live that way....It's schizophrenia........and who's to say they're wrong and we're right...........Hmmm, maybe that's where the majority comes in...

No you see, you hit the nail on the head ther. We can't be sure. That's all. Don't centre your life around it. But realize it.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
But your EXPERIENCE tells you that by shooting someone they will die. Why would you deny your own experiences? Thanks to your experiences you are what you're now.

I don't understand, I don't deny my own experiences.

Bardock42

Mindship
Obviously, we are aware of something, whether it is a private or consensual hallucination, a Big Newtonian Machine or God's Dream. Real, illusion; hell, let's make up a whole new word for it. We'd still be in the same boat. Before there were any words, there was this, and plumbing the depths of language only highlights how beyond language this is.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mindship
Obviously, we are aware of something, whether it is a private or consensual hallucination, a Big Newtonian Machine or God's Dream. Real, illusion; hell, let's make up a whole new word for it. We'd still be in the same boat. Before there were any words, there was this, and plumbing the depths of language only highlights how beyond language this is.

"There you man, keep as cool as you can, face pile of trials with smiles. For it rials them to believe that you perceive the wed that they weave."

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Mindship
Obviously, we are aware of something, whether it is a private or consensual hallucination, a Big Newtonian Machine or God's Dream. Real, illusion; hell, let's make up a whole new word for it. We'd still be in the same boat. Before there were any words, there was this, and plumbing the depths of language only highlights how beyond language this is.

I elect we call it "Blok".

Mindship
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I elect we call it "Blok".

I was gonna go with nagual. wink



*got me foot tappin' to that one* Happy Dance

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mindship
I was gonna go with nagual. wink



*got me foot tappin' to that one* Happy Dance

I figured you know The Moody Blues. BTW they are still going strong. I saw then last year.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Mindship
Obviously, we are aware of something, whether it is a private or consensual hallucination, a Big Newtonian Machine or God's Dream. Real, illusion; hell, let's make up a whole new word for it. We'd still be in the same boat. Before there were any words, there was this, and plumbing the depths of language only highlights how beyond language this is. I suppose if we are all hallucinating together and seeing the same things, then were ok..... cool

Mindship
You figured correctly, sir. One of the great harmonizing/poetic ensembles.
But how come no one is recognizing nagual? "Darn, darn, darn" (let's see if anyone gets That one).


H'mmm...sounds like something Agent Smith might want us to believe (interesting you should pick the smilie with sunglasses...)

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mindship
...But how come no one is recognizing nagual? "Darn, darn, darn" (let's see if anyone gets That one)...

Sorry, you got me on this one.

Mindship
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sorry, you got me on this one.

Nagual was the term Don Juan used, in the Carlos Castenada books, to refer to the Ineffable. "Tales of Power" was an especially fascinating read (however true/fictional the encounters may've been).

And "Darn, darn, darn!" Herman Munster.

debbiejo
I've heard of Carlos Castenada books, but havent read them myself....

Lord Urizen
I'm Agnostic.

Athiesm is TOO FINAL and too depressing for me.

I feel much better beleiving someone is there for us, i just dont know anything about him/her.

Ne ways WHY DO WE NEED A GOD?

It's like we dont feel that we're worth anything unless we think a superior force loves us ?

DO WE NEED THAT to feel important?

Wow..self esteem issues bro

Templares
Im an atheist.

Roulette
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I'm Agnostic.

Athiesm is TOO FINAL and too depressing for me.

Yeah, me too.

And I agree with that....it is too final for me...

I can't rule out the possibility of a higher being.

How can we be so certain of anything that we cannot prove exists?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Roulette
Yeah, me too.

And I agree with that....it is too final for me...

I can't rule out the possibility of a higher being.

How can we be so certain of anything that we cannot prove exists?

Well, I agree, but how far do you take it? I mean we can't really be certain of anything, can we?

Lord Urizen
Yeah, me too.

And I agree with that....it is too final for me...

I can't rule out the possibility of a higher being.

How can we be so certain of anything that we cannot prove exists?




I prefer to beleive in my OWN VERSION of God, it that sounds hypocritical or not....

A God who truly loves us and doesn't care what kind of lives we try to live, as long as we are not trying to harm another human being or animal.

I cannot beleive in a judgemental and prejudice God. The creator should be open to all his creation, not just a select few.

:FH: Fox
"Oh yeah...sure! It's better to have no sense of conviction and just spend your whole life walking around hedging bets! Great life! Woo! Go you!"

turn down the sarcasm please!! It doesn't mean you wonder around. Nature has all the answers. Maybe there is a higher being? Who knows? That is one of the things nature can't answer, but the quote. Oh yeah. Best to keep an open mind. Why bother spending time in a chiurch if it does nothing but waste time? Why be an athiest when it will give you sadness in hell? You see, keeping an open mind means trying hard to not offend anything that is a higher being but not sucking up while you're doing that. And not...well. it's hard to explain properly without raising fury.

Storm
Atheism is compatible with religion/spirituality. Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of any gods, not the absence of religion, the absence of belief in the supernatural, the absence of superstitions, the absence of irrational beliefs, etc.

Lord Urizen
Yes, Athiests tend to beleive that when we die, we become nothing.

That's tooooo sad for me to beleive.

I think we are worth SO MUCH MORE to result in becoming nothing more than rotting bodies.

I strongly beleive in a SOUL, whether or not God exists.

Alliance
Originally posted by Storm
Atheism is compatible with religion/spirituality. Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of any gods, not the absence of religion, the absence of belief in the supernatural, the absence of superstitions, the absence of irrational beliefs, etc.

I agree. Its in most religionus polls. Its just not representative to poll world religions when over 1/5th of the world in non-religious. Athiesm/agnosciticsm should be represented in religions debates

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, Athiests tend to beleive that when we die, we become nothing.
That's tooooo sad for me to beleive.I think we are worth SO MUCH MORE to result in becoming nothing more than rotting bodies.I strongly beleive in a SOUL, whether or not God exists.

I'm athiest, I believe you have a soul. It just dies when the rest of you dies. Your soul is like your life force/essence.

And then you compost! eek! I don't know why people NEED to feel that they have a romantic afterlife.

Lord Urizen
Because some people base the worth of thier current life on the worth of what they think thier afterlife will be.

I don't.

I personally think THIS LIFE is worth so much regardless of an afterlife.

But I DO beleive in a SOUL..that is eternal and lives on SOMEHOW.....not necessarily Heaven or even reincarnation.....

But just somehow....the essense of who we are must exist in SOME way after we die.

Alliance
but couldn't death itself be the death of the soul?

Lord Urizen
it could be, but then it would also be OBLIVION because then we would cease to exist.

Alliance
you do...you compost.

The soul is that little special feeling you get from being alive. You feel different. Its like consciousness. When you die, that stops.

Anyway, athiests usually get a pretty hard snub.

Roulette
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I agree, but how far do you take it? I mean we can't really be certain of anything, can we?

I made a very general statement before....I was referring to such things as ghosts, spirits, god....etc. Things that some people believe in, and others don't. Now, I've never seen a ghost, but some people are so sure that they have. Just because some people have said they've seen one, doesn't mean that I should believe that they exist.

I can't be certain that there is a higher being because I don't have hard evidence that one exists. But then I start wondering how exactly the world came into existance. It's all very complicated. I like to stay inbetween.

debbiejo
This always confuses me.................Cause there are degrees of both.

Templares
Im an atheist. I dont believe in a Higher Being or the existence of an immortal essence like the soul, mind, chakra or whatever that will live on once you passed away . . . . and frankly its not really that sad. It is depressing on the first few weeks/months of being an atheist but once you got over that hump, things would settle back to normal.

Anyway, if im wrong and a Higher Being does exist, im counting on two things:

If he's perfectly good, im just going to count on his better nature to forgive my sins.

If he's perfectly just, then im just going to argue my case as to why i should be saved (assuming i did plenty of good deeds in life). If he couldnt be argued with, then i just have to take solace on the fact that i didnt wasted my life worshipping a petty, prick who likes to play hide and seek and deliver conflicting doctrines with his believers.

If he's a cruel, cold-hearted, SOB, then F him and see above.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Templares
Im an atheist. I dont believe in a Higher Being or the existence of an immortal essence like the soul, mind, chakra or whatever that will live on once you passed away . . . . and frankly its not really that sad. It is depressing on the first few weeks/months of being an atheist but once you got over that hump, things would settle back to normal.

Anyway, if im wrong and a Higher Being does exist, im counting on two things:

If he's perfectly good, im just going to count on his better nature to forgive my sins.

If he's perfectly just, then im just going to argue my case as to why i should be saved (assuming i did plenty of good deeds in life). If he couldnt be argued with, then i just have to take solace on the fact that i didnt wasted my life worshipping a petty, prick who likes to play hide and seek and deliver conflicting doctrines with his believers.

If he's a cruel, cold-hearted, SOB, then F him and see above.


I actually agree with you very much here.

I rather live my life and have my fun, then have wasted it on serving a selfish bully of a God.

Regardless of whether or not there is an afterlife, THIS LIFE matters very much.

Roulette
Originally posted by Templares
If he's a cruel, cold-hearted, SOB, then F him and see above.

laughing out loud

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