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Ok so Bilb and I were debating this. I think that by Vader tossing Palpatine down the shaft in ROTJ balance was restored at that moment. Bilb however feels differently, she thinks that balance was not restored until both Palpatine AND Vader are died.

What do you think and why?

um shouldnt this be in the IV-VI section?

and i say balance was restored after vader and palpatine died.
Because of how luke used the light and dark sides of the force

Originally posted by Uber_God
um shouldnt this be in the IV-VI section?


Well the reason I posted it here is because I was talking about Anakin fulfilling his destiny as the Chosen one. But it could be moved quite easily.

Well, here is my take on it..

Anakin's 'Death' in ROTS is figurative, not literal. Its not until he kills Sids and is really truly physically dead that balance is acheived... Once he kills the Emporer balance is achieved but its the potential for turning that is dangerous, and what will DEFINITELY keep him from turning? DEATH

dont you mean rotj?

But if he has returned to the light side and fulfilled his destiny then he's not going back over to the darkside. I just dont see that happeneing.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Well the reason I posted it here is because I was talking about Anakin fulfilling his destiny as the Chosen one. But it could be moved quite easily.

threads that i think involve the old and new trilogy i would put into the EU

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
But if he has returned to the light side and fulfilled his destiny then he's not going back over to the darkside. I just dont see that happeneing.

Drug dealers sent to prison fufil their destiny of their prison sentence
but a shitload still sell drugs

Oh please........you cant equate drug dealers with Darth Vader.

Originally posted by Uber_God
dont you mean rotj?

Nope, I mean ROTS, In Ep 3 ANAKIN dies and VADER is born, Thats why I stated it that way..

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I edited

so did i


--------------------------------------------
fair enough bilb

I edited

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
But if he has returned to the light side and fulfilled his destiny then he's not going back over to the darkside. I just dont see that happeneing.

Thats exactly why I said the POTENTIAL for turning is dangerous. And he does have that potential, he has turned once he may very well do it again, what would he do if he had lived & Luke had died shortly after ROTJ? He would have lost someone dear to him AGAIN.. he doesnt handle that very well...

yes indeed
i woulda said that but i was too lazy to

Originally posted by bilb
Thats exactly why I said the POTENTIAL for turning is dangerous. And he does have that potential, he has turned once he may very well do it again, what would he do if he had lived & Luke had died shortly after ROTJ? He would have lost someone dear to him AGAIN.. he doesnt handle that very well...

But see I think that he has finally grasped what exactly it is about the Force that the Jedi tried to teach him. Therefore, I think balance was restored with the death of Sideous and Anakins death was unnecessary in matter of the force so to speak.

That is more than likely true, but you cant ignore the possibility that it could happen. Therefore, he's gotta go....

Why does that have to be a possibility at this point? People can and do change. He can live.

but even if anakin didnt turn to the darkside of the force and lived it means theres a person using the light side of the force and another using the light and dark

which is 2 parts light 1 part dark

thats like not very balanced

hope you understand it cause i barely can

But who's to say he'd be using the dark side of the force had he lived?

whos to say he wouldnt?

i was also saying that luke was using the dark side of the force

The thing is the question is: is balance restored with Sideous death alone? And you both said that it was restored when Sideous died and then added on that Vader had to die to. Do you see what Im getting at here?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Why does that have to be a possibility at this point? People can and do change. He can live.

OK, lets do the math here. Anakin's 'Sith Trial' was to wipe out ALL Jedi, which he does quite effectively. Noone would fault him for taking out the Seperatists, esp Gunray, after they to take out Padme. But, not only does he kill the bad guys, he kills his comrades (jedi), children (younglings), and wife. AND he allows the biggest bad guy to live. Now what known spree/serial killer can you think of that you can say with 100% certainty was rehabilitated and would NEVER do such a thing again?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
The thing is the question is is balance restore with Sideous death alone? And you both said that it was restored when Sideous died and then added on that Vader had to die to. Do you see what Im getting at here?

Yes, IMHO all traces of the Sith must be gone for balance to be acheived..

Ah but see I dont think Anakin is a Sith any longer. He's been redeemed by Luke.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
The thing is the question is: is balance restored with Sideous death alone? And you both said that it was restored when Sideous died and then added on that Vader had to die to. Do you see what Im getting at here?

um i said after they both died
not sidious then added when vader died

Originally posted by bilb
.. Once he kills the Emporer balance is achieved

ok sorry Uber it was just Bilb.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Ah but see I dont think Anakin is a Sith any longer. He's been redeemed by Luke.

But he IS human, so you cannot discount the possibilty that he may go back to the Dark Side in the future. Humans screw up, often more than once. Look at addicts.. go into rehab over & over again for the exact same thing. Happens all the time. Ergo it COULD happen in this case as well...

Yes like what i said before

And again
ever luke used the dark side to help himself

---------------------------------------------------------

um why have we got 6 votes but 3 people?
any1 voting join in if you want to

I thing it is when Palpatine is killed because he was so more powerful than anyone else alive. I think Vader would have been extremely powerful had it not been for his injuries. But once the all powerful Palpatine was dead, Anakin's death meant little to the balance of the force.

Sorry if that wasnt too clear.

You guys are being too literal. Remember this is fantasy. And it is the story about the fall of Anakin Skywalker and his redemption. I just honestly dont think George meant him to be redeemed and then screw up again.

And Uber that's EU and it doesnt count.

I think the Chosen one was a Martyr, a force enomoly that further unbalanced the force to inevitably balance it in the end, so he must die too to balance the force

well thats probably the point of him getting killed
so he couldnt screw up again

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
You guys are being too literal. Remember this is fantasy. And it is the story about the fall of Anakin Skywalker and his redemption. I just honestly dont think George meant him to be redeemed and then screw up again.

And Uber that's EU and it doesnt count.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
You guys are being too literal. Remember this is fantasy. And it is the story about the fall of Anakin Skywalker and his redemption. I just honestly dont think George meant him to be redeemed and then screw up again.

And Uber that's EU and it doesnt count.

Not really. In a galaxy filled to overflowing wioth aliens & droids GL chose to make Anakin/Vader human. Therefore all human traits and charteristics are applicable...

um what exactly is eu?

I think you are still by-passing Georges intent Bilb.

If it's not in the movies it's EU.

Originally posted by bilb
Not really. In a galaxy filled to overflowing wioth aliens & droids GL chose to make Anakin/Vader human. Therefore all human traits and charteristics are applicable...

um can you name any movies where the main character isnt or doesnt appears to be human?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I think you are still by-passing Georges intent Bilb.

If it's not in the movies it's EU.

But every single thing I have said was shown ONSCREEN!!

Wait a sec, I may have misunderstood what you meant about Luke using the dark side. What instance are you talking about Uber?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess

If it's not in the movies it's EU.

what part are you exaclty reffering to preistess?

Originally posted by Uber_God
um can you name any movies where the main character isnt or doesnt appears to be human?

Enemy Mine? Hitchiker's Guide?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Wait a sec, I may have misunderstood what you meant about Luke using the dark side. What instance are you talking about Uber?

things like how in rotj he chokes those 2 pig guards

Originally posted by bilb
But every single thing I have said was shown ONSCREEN!!


I know that girlfriend, but there isnt a big ole sign that flashes BALANCE RESTORED at the exact moment. Hence this discussion.

Originally posted by Uber_God
things like how in rotj he chokes those 2 pig guards

Thats not evil, he didnt kill them, merely disabled them in the process of a rescue..

Originally posted by bilb
Enemy Mine? Hitchiker's Guide?

fair enough
but the dude from hitchhikers guide did appear to be human

Originally posted by Uber_God
things like how in rotj he chokes those 2 pig guards

Yeah I misread ya, I thought you were talking book wise. My bad.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I know that girlfriend, but there isnt a big ole sign that flashes BALANCE RESTORED at the exact moment. Hence this discussion.

Just playin by your own rules missy!! Just cause I make sense dont mean I'm wrong!!!

Originally posted by bilb
Thats not evil, he didnt kill them, merely disabled them in the process of a rescue..

still the force choke thing is part of the dark side

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Yeah I misread ya, I thought you were talking book wise. My bad.

im waiting to see ep3 before i read any eu books

Originally posted by Uber_God
fair enough
but the dude from hitchhikers guide did appear to be human

your eyes can decieve you, dont trust them..............

I never saw that as a force choke myself, but what do I know. And I am making sense Miss Bilb.

Originally posted by bilb
your eyes can decieve you, dont trust them..............

yes master

Originally posted by Uber_God
still the force choke thing is part of the dark side

I think the intent and outcome are as or more important than the act in this case

Originally posted by Uber_God
im waiting to see ep3 before i read any eu books

90% of sux IMHO Uber.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I never saw that as a force choke myself, but what do I know. And I am making sense Miss Bilb.

Really? When? Got a link?

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
90% of sux IMHO Uber.

pardon?

i understood 90% and uber
but thats about it

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
90% of sux IMHO Uber.

99%

EDIT : nvm i got it

what exactly are the parts that do not suck according to you two?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!! Bilb, you know that I am making perfect sense. My point is this in order to bring balance to the Force Anakin had to destroy the Sith. When Vader (who is back to ANAKIN) tosses Sideous over the railing he has done that. He has fulfilled his desitny and balance is restored at that moment. That was the question. Not whether or not Vader had to die, but at what moment balance was restored.

Originally posted by Uber_God
um shouldnt this be in the IV-VI section?

and i say balance was restored after vader and palpatine died.
Because of how luke used the light and dark sides of the force

Yep, it needs to be moved.

Regardless if it's about Anakin fulfilling his destiny. This is still a discussion about Return of the Jedi.

All I have liked are the books that cover the movies themselves, a few in between, Shadows of the Empire and the Thrawn trilogy..

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!! Bilb, you know that I am making perfect sense. My point is this in order to bring balance to the Force Anakin had to destroy the Sith. When Vader (who is back to ANAKIN) tosses Sideous over the railing he has done that. He has fulfilled his desitny and balance is restored at that moment. That was the question. Not whether or not Vader had to die, but at what moment balance was restored.

Damnit woman!! LISTEN TO ME... POTENTIAL to turn back. POTENTIAL is the key word. When he dies, yes absolutely he has been redeemed but he is still human and still capable of making mistakes!!

And Uber, Clone Wars and LOE are great IMO...............

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!! Bilb, you know that I am making perfect sense. My point is this in order to bring balance to the Force Anakin had to destroy the Sith. When Vader (who is back to ANAKIN) tosses Sideous over the railing he has done that. He has fulfilled his desitny and balance is restored at that moment. That was the question. Not whether or not Vader had to die, but at what moment balance was restored.

maybe by killing himself and the emperor is how he brought balance

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
Ok so Bilb and I were debating this. I think that by Vader tossing Palpatine down the shaft in ROTJ balance was restored at that moment.




Bilb however feels differently, she thinks that balance was not restored until both Palpatine AND Vader are died.

What do you think and why?

The question is WHEN IS BALANCE RESTORED???


NOT does Anakin have to die.

Balance is restored once BOTH are dead...

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
But who's to say he'd be using the dark side of the force had he lived? I personally believe that "Balance" was restored when Palpatine died. Vader was on his way to being good again when he helped Luke. Vader could have lived and the Empire would still be in shambles and the Sith would be no more.

Originally posted by Uber_God
um shouldnt this be in the IV-VI section?

and i say balance was restored after vader and palpatine died.
Because of how luke used the light and dark sides of the force

ok now look at the sentence I circled Bilb. You plainly state that when Sideous is killed balance is achieved. Then you go on to add why Anakin must die, so that it stays in balance. But its Sideous death that brings the balance. See what I mean?

Yes and then look at the VERY NEXT SENTENCE as well..

Let me guess, you only read one select passage from the whole of the Bible as well?

where does it say about why vader must die?

Originally posted by bilb
Yes and then look at the VERY NEXT SENTENCE as well..

Let me guess, you only read one select passage from the whole of the Bible as well?

i did
its in my sig aswell :P

She was talking to me Uber.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
ok now look at the sentence I circled Bilb. You plainly state that when Sideous is killed balance is achieved. Then you go on to add why Anakin must die, so that it stays in balance. But its Sideous death that brings the balance. See what I mean?

OK miss imma quote yer ass............. I DID type that and i WAS WRONG!! Like i have said many times, HUMANS MAKE MISTAKES. My point has been for four pages now that it takes the death of both for balance to be restored..

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
She was talking to me Uber.

i know
i was just pointing it out

and bilb has a point

Originally posted by Uber_God
where does it say about why vader must die?

The word Potential , Uber..

k

Originally posted by bilb
OK miss imma quote yer ass............. I DID type that and i WAS WRONG!! Like i have said many times, HUMANS MAKE MISTAKES. My point has been for four pages now that it takes the death of both for balance to be restored..


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/spadesmamma61/Moms%20Pictures/40.gif Kimmers eyes

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/spadesmamma61/Moms%20Pictures/40.gif Kimmers eyes

Back atcha!!

so is this discussion at an end?
who won?
was it me?

Poll says I do!

Yeah well, exit polls said Kerry would win too, so there ya go!

well i wont look at the poll and just think to myself that i win

My two cents...coming late on the debate is this:

Having Anakin die doesn't necessarily make that part of balancing the force, but then again it does...

Its sort of a Christian theme, really...or any religion. Testimony, what have you, needs to be sealed in blood and sacrifice. In one sense, after the Emporer is dead, the path of the Chosen One (delete "chosen" for Matrix fans) is complete...at the end of the path is death. Once Christ fulfilled his destiny..."It is finished" and he gave up the ghost...no more to be done in the physical world. But balance comes at the death of the Emperor.

If this is a pattern and how it must be, that death seals the word and works...then his path is not complete until death takes him, option 2 in this poll.

Casting religiosity aside for a moment, having VADER redeem HIMSELF may ultimately be what brings the Force into balance. Using his will to overcome evil may, in some way...actually destroy it. Palpatine's death then is more like taking care of loose threads.

This leads you to consider that balance may not be considered balance as we imagine it to be. Perhaps balance is a merging of light and dark, good and evil. This can be seen in the EU NJO with talk that no true light and dark side exist...just the Unifying Force...Perhaps the Force is a dynamic entity, needing the Chosen one...a savior, to help fulfill it's destiny.

Individually speaking: has anyone else gone to the Dark Side and returned? Perhaps if there is and always was a single "unified" Force, the balance is within individuals. Individuals determine themselves are either good or evil. Anakin embodies both, and the struggle to be good or evil is the balance...Anakin has to face his evil and overcome it in order to truly be a whole person.

So you see, the question of Balance and the Force, and the role of the Chosen One, may actually be more complicated.

HOWEVER...the great and powerful flanneled one, believes it is when the Emperor dies.

That being said...JP wins the debate.

As an EU sideline...Vader clings to life through the power of the Dark Side...he cannot sustain his life with the force otherwise...Perhaps because Anakin is truely dead? Doesn't make sense because it is clearly ANAKIN who is unmasked...I really don't think George thought the whole Hayden ROTJ thing through...

And also having all Sith eradicated doesn't bring balance...for balance, good and evil must coexist. Therefore, I choose the Unified Force theory.

BTW...I love it when chicks fight....visuals...oooooooohhhhhhhh

Ah but the flanneled one specificaly said that balance is NO Sith just Jedi. And we werent really fighting, we are the best of friends and were laughing our asses off via msn during this, but we did disagree on the question so I made the thread for outside input. Very interesting stuff tlb.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
balance is NO Sith just Jedi.

no sith just jedi isnt really a good balance

Hey I agree but that is George's definition.

Vader died the minute that anakin pick up Sidious and threw him in the shaft, so i'd go with the former.

@JP: The part where Luke "uses" the dark side is when he lets in to his anger and repeatedly strikes Vader on the DS, eventually taking his hand.


I think it obvious that both of them needed to die. When Vader returned to the light side in choosing to save Luke and kill Palpatine that is what killed him (I believe that this is straight from GL's mouth). In order to kill Palps he had to die. Palps can only see the dark side, he couldn't see Vader's change. If Vader ever decided to try and topple Palps without switching to the light Palps would see it coming and kick his ass.

Well, first of all, I agree that Anakin's redemption hardly purges his soul; he is still a mass murderer and I think Yoda's line that 'Forever will it dominate your destiny' should be read literally. There is no real way back for someone who has become as unbalanced and evil as someone like Anakin- he might have saved his 'soul', as it were, but he cannot undo what he is. I believe his death is an integral part of any process of redemption for him.

As for the main question... GL makes it clear that Balance is restored when Vader kills Sidious, that much is certain. Whether he means this in the context of him SACRIFICING himself to kill Sidious... is certainly up for debate, as we see.

My personal belief is to sidestep it by thinking that he could not have killed Sidious without such sacrifice, and so there could be no question of Sidious dying but the Sith sitll being there. And it is Sidious' death that is the big moment; Balance, I believe, is restored at that point- Sidious dead and Vader doomed.

well it's how you see who Vader is. Vader is a Sith Lord, so he had to die. That is what happens. Vader dies and Anakin is resurrected so they both had to die from a certain point of view.

crap
seems the votes are against us
( us being me )

Originally posted by Uber_God
no sith just jedi isnt really a good balance

That's because its not a balance at all....you need opposition in all things.

Another thing that is interesting is that the Jedi order had become stagnant...they became stuck in an old way of thinking allowing the Sith to come to power. The fact that the Jedi were not aware of Palpatine is something that shouldn't be..."The shroud of the Dark Side..."

Obviously the Dark Side has eclipsed the light...

This is where Lucas is coming from, but I never understood how NO sith is a balance either...

I could continue...but I burnt myself out last night.

Ultimately, I think there are too many holes in the story and even more in the philosophy. Lucas didn't give it as much thought as the Wachowski's did...

Well I have to agree with the whole 'there is no balance without some evil' debate. Balance is just that, BALANCE. Meaning both ends are equal, like a seesaw as it were. Its not until both sides have equal weight that the seesaw will be completely horizontal.
However, this is GL's universe. And if he said that balance is restored when Sids dies I will defer to him..

I missed out a lot in this topic already, but IMHO, it's as simple as the deaths of Darth Sidious and Darth Vader re-balance the force. Without Sith, the force isn't corrupted and the darkside would no longer be more powerful than the light.

Having just read this entire thread, has it not occurred to anyone that the amount of time between the emperors death and Vaders is like MAYBE ten minutes. Although I can see both points, it's kind of like arguing wether or not the force was balanced at 2:00 or 2:15....

Um...it has NOTHING to do with time.

I think we all like the philisophical discussion....I mean its better than posting in a "ME WANT LINKY" thread.

This vote really isnt accurate, mainly because when Palpitine dies Vader is already dead Darth Vader is only the Evel side of Anakin when Anakin kills Palpitine there is no Vader hes already dead, Anakin was the chosen one the Jedi Council just couldnt see HOW he was going to bring back balance to the force, Anakin kills Palpi reviving balance to the force there for he was the chosen one, Luke was mainly just the antagonist to the Evel, thats why the twins are so important, they are they only thing that can put humanity back into Vader, makeing him disappear, and letting Anakin fulfill the prophicy.

This is the main reason why when luke says "ive got to save you" and Anakin says "you already have" meaning luke saved his better half.

Originally posted by Darth Plagueis
Having just read this entire thread, has it not occurred to anyone that the amount of time between the emperors death and Vaders is like MAYBE ten minutes. Although I can see both points, it's kind of like arguing wether or not the force was balanced at 2:00 or 2:15....

Yes indeedy and thats the point. I wanted to know when it was. And by Vader I meant the guy in the suit EHmaster call him what you will.

Anyone ever saw episode 6 ? , it's about Anakins return to the light , his moment where he understands his wrong doings and brings balance to the force , it doesntm atter that he died , he confessed to Luke he was right about him and that he should tell his sister , Vader was gone and ANakin returned , Anakins love for his son redeemed him , and he finally accepted the fact that all things pass out , from plants on the ground to the stars high in the sky

Originally posted by tlbauerle
Um...it has NOTHING to do with time.

I think we all like the philisophical discussion....I mean its better than posting in a "ME WANT LINKY" thread. Huh?? ANY question with a "WHEN" in it involves time....and I certainly wasn't chastising anyone for posting here, it's refreshing to find people actually talking about Star Wars in one of these threads, and was just adding an element to the conversation. JP made her point just fine......

Yeah, Anakin's death has nothing to do with anything, hell he could have survived and the balance would have been restored, but he died

The more I think about it, the more relevant time becomes....Is Palpatine dead when he is thrown down the shaft?? NO!!! He presumably dies during the fall....and, concievably AT THE SAME TIME that Vader does!!!!!

Vader dies the moment Anakin picks up Palpatine, and Palpatine dies when he hits the bottom. Time isn't that big of a factor in this, and even if it is, so what? Balance is restored, that's what's important.

That also wasnt the question DN. If you dont think it's important dont participoate in the debate, simple as that.

One Palps is dead, because only the light is left.

Jeez, Vader IS Anakin just like Palpatine IS Sidious, they are the SAME person!!!!

IMHO, they aren't the same person, as Anakin is aligned witht he lightside, and Darth Vader is aligned with the darkside. They're completely different and their actions (IMHO) speak for themselves.

And JP, fine, to answer the question, as soon as Palpatine hits the bottom and that blue energy comes shooting up the reactor, balance is restored.

"The conflict within" is a struggle between warring sides of the same personality, while Darth Vader embodies the darkside "there is still good in him"......like it or not, Anakin Skywalker becomes, and IS Darth Vader (but STILL Anakin in the armor)!!

I agree, but I'm just saying IMO, the darkside is like an alternate personality to you, providing you with power and a sense of fulfillment while eating your soul. I know they are the same person physically, but I still count them as two different people.

Okay, but you still have to give in to the darkside, it doesn't just take you over. My analogy would be like a great guy who becomes a complete ass when drunk...different personalities, to be sure, but fundamentally, the same person. The actions of "the drunk(his personal darkside)" are not associated with anyone other than himself...

I see what you're saying, because you're right, Anakin does allow the darkness to take him so he can get more power.

Anakin in the end suffers from a split personality disorder
and when he kills somtin or som1 its vader and not squaky clean anakin
just a little thought in my head

Well, my problem is that you all are portraying Anakin and Vader as two opposites (squeaky clean probably wouldn't encompass the murder of an entire tribe of Tuskens), when in fact we see a lot of Vader in Anakin in the prequels, and later, a lot of Anakin in Vader in 5 & (most notably) 6.

The only way palpi wouldve died is if Vader died to (meaning Anakin came back) so in a sense both had to die BUT Anakin physicaly did not have to die for the balance, the evel in him just needed to, the only way anyone was ever going to kill palpi was if it came unexpected from betrayal. So you could say Palpi got a dose of his own stuff being that he had betrayed so many others.

Originally posted by Sith_Dreamer
One Palps is dead, because only the light is left.

Like i said before that aint balance

all good and no evil isnt a balance

Well, with over a thousand populated worlds, its a safe bet that a LOT more evil is present in the SW universe than just a couple of Sith....

but they dont use the force do they now?

How do you know????

Noone used the force to blow up Alderaan, arguably the biggest atrocity committed in all of the SW films.....

there's still evil in the galaxy after Sidious is dead. the imbalance has to do with Sidious' ability to pollute the force itself, which is why he remains hidden for so many years and how he can BS the Jedi council face to face

if your a good senator you can bullshit anyone you wish

True, but he completely masked his Sith powers, by using a Sith power...
I worded that funny, but I think you get my point.

Either its the late hour...or the nature of these boards lately....

But is it me or has the conversation taken a dive toward the WTF scale of debating?

how tlb?

i still say by anakin getting himself killed he brought balance to the force

Originally posted by Uber_God
um shouldnt this be in the IV-VI section?


yep.


anyway, first off how does helping kill off the entire jedi order, and then killing palpatine, followed by his own death equate to balancing the force??

if it was balanced, wouldn't that mean there'd be one jedi and one sith?? wtf..

i was saying about that before gang

Luke uses the light and dark side of the force making him not a jedi but not a sith either so he balances the force

and you just made this up off the top of your head?? that counts?

what about leia??

leia never used the force in the trilogy

I dont count EU as its not written by lucas

first off, the potential to do evil is in every jedi. why would it be needed for anakin to die? especially since he's a broken down machine by the end of ep6. at that point luke has the same potential as anakin to turn evil, yet he is ever so much more powerful.

and seriously, this talk of 'balance of the force' includes killing all the jedi, is just plain wrong. the jedi dont create balance, they help keep it. the sith dont play into the balance, they destroy it. so please, you have to think beyond jedi=good sith=evil on two ends of a scale.

there's no way anakin HAD to be killed to fulfill his destiny, but in the end he's kind of a martyr, sacrificing himself. i dont think he dies in ep6 because of any damage sustained by force lightning, but that the dark side has kept him alive as an abomination...he stopped himself from dying. thats one of the 'unnatural' abilities palpatine mentioned.

so yeah. forget the scale, and forget that anakin's turn was part of his destiny. anakin's destiny is to kill the sith and restore balance. when he becomes vader he denies that destiny, and ignores the prophecy. once he becomes anakin and finally fulfills his destiny by killing the sith, THAT is when balance is restored.

i will agree that anakin must die, but not because he's a slave to it the force or to destiny. i have always believed that in ep6 vader knew he was going to die when he decided to save his son... and that had vader sustained that same damage and remained evil, he would have been completely fixable.(hypothetically if palps killed luke).

i skipped alot of that
next time try breaking it down

im off to bed
goodnight

Actually thats a good point PVS. Because it seems like that the way the Jedi 'cheat death' is far different than the Sith way. It seems like , and I hope wil be confirmed in ROTS, that it is a choice you make to give up your physical body and become one with the force, ala Yoda & Obi. So one could argue that Anakin (having been brought back to the lightside) CHOSE to end his mortal life when he told Luke to take off his mask. I know he was critically injured from the lightening, but technology had kept him alive for 20 years, I'm betting it could have patched him up again. Yet he CHOSE to give himself to the force. Once again, everything comes down to choice.

FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JEDI PRIESTESS WHY COULDN'T YOU USE THE SEARCH BUTTON BLAH BLAH BLAH
THIS IS THE WRONG FORUM BLAH BLAH BLAH

Jeez if this had been started by anyone else you would have been straight down their throat.

get your head out your ass please!

Hmmmm, lets see here. Registered March 2005, TODAY, with exactly ONE post and it just so happens to be a JP flame. Wonder who this could be?

what a SAD life you live Pellufo

yeah, well foba bett is completely right.


PVS, those are great theories, but they're just completely wrong because i say so. which is basically what you said about everyone's theory about the balance of the force.

I may be taking this too literally, but I figured that after Vader and Sidious had killed all the Jedi except for Obi-Wan and Yoda, balance was acheived. 2 Jedi, 2 Sith. Anakin was the chosen one that would bring balance to the force...and he did so by making the teams even, so to speak.

I feel that this was needed because the Jedi (and the Republic) had become somewhat complacent. Things had to get worse before they got better, and Anakin/Vader was the key.

Sorry if this idea was already posted...I tried to read through the thread but there are way too many fools cloggin things up around here lately. Way of the internet, I guess.

Creech you'd think thats the way that makes most sense wouldnt ya? Unfortunately Lucas see's this subject a bit skewed Im afraid.

Yup. Lucas has the word on this one. Creechur is wrong and PVS is right.

It's not about simplistic scale balancing., GL says, directly, the Sith create imbalance; to restore balance you must destroy the Sith- and in fatc that is the only way. Whilst the Sith are in power, there can be no balance. Trying to keep equal numbers of Jedi and Sith, or any nonsense like that, has nothing to do with anything- official.

Originally posted by Gangularis
PVS, those are great theories, but they're just completely wrong because i say so. which is basically what you said about everyone's theory about the balance of the force.

WELL PVS IS JUST ANOTHER JERK WITH A ROD IN HIS ASS WHO THINKS HE KNOWS IT ALL

Originally posted by bilb
Hmmmm, lets see here. Registered March 2005, TODAY, with exactly ONE post and it just so happens to be a JP flame. Wonder who this could be?

YOU CAN WONDER ALL YOU LIKE BUT YOU DONT KNOW ME. SO GET DOWN OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE. AND WHEN YOUR DONE REMOVE YOUR HEAD FROM "JP"S ASS OR WHEREVER YOU'VE STUCK IT.

i smell a banning

I SMELL A SHITHEAD

Originally posted by Ushgarak
PVS is right.

jawdrop

yeah and who made him the master of all star wars knowledge? i hate you. i bet you look like your avatar

Originally posted by bilb
Actually thats a good point PVS. Because it seems like that the way the Jedi 'cheat death' is far different than the Sith way. It seems like , and I hope wil be confirmed in ROTS, that it is a choice you make to give up your physical body and become one with the force, ala Yoda & Obi. So one could argue that Anakin (having been brought back to the lightside) CHOSE to end his mortal life when he told Luke to take off his mask. I know he was critically injured from the lightening, but technology had kept him alive for 20 years, I'm betting it could have patched him up again. Yet he CHOSE to give himself to the force. Once again, everything comes down to choice.

what always bugged me...and i know this is off topic...but why did yoda and anakin choose to become force ghosts? the sith was already destroyed...so why did they need to hang around? unless luke still needed to rebuild the jedi order and needed their counseling? maybe that should be a thread in the OT forum... im too lazy to post it though

Foba, you need to take a chill pill. He was right, get over it.

just a sock troll. pay it no mind

Hey Foba Bett, nuck a sut, I'm sorry that you hate other peoples opinons and all, but that's the point, and PVS, thank you for wording it better than I did. The Sith create the imbalance, and that's what matters.