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Isn't that sweet? Cant you just feel the love?
God would be proud. I think that's the reason he created gay people, to capitalise on the hate and prejudice of the 3 largest religions in order to bring them together. hug

Yes I think the gay march should be prevented at all costs! As the rabbi said "this is very ugly and very nasty to have these people come to Jerusalem" and "the event would desecrate the city".

A city that is filled with peace, love and acceptance and has a history of each! *sarcasm*

Frankly I dont know why the fabulous gays would want to march in that dirty little sh!t sand city anyways. Its the capital of ignorance, prejudice and hate.

They should stay in Frisco looking fabulous! policecaptainsmoke

whole Texy....

united..by hate...it seems to be the only way to bring groups so deverse together...ironic isn't is?

Gay people need to disassociate themselves from religion completely and stop their futile attempts to seek understanding from religious people and leaders.

These people hate gays because they believe their god hates gays.
Nothing you do or say will ever change their minds.

These are silly weak minded people that lack reason and do not understand that their religions are founded upon lies and fallacies.

God has never spoken through anyone.
Homosexuality is natural, it occurs in almost every species. Why create something if you hate it?

These religious people infuriate me to no end. This is the perfect example of how their hate and prejudice is detrimental to human advancement and social advancement.

Agreed Tex

hug

Awwwwwwwwwww

Originally posted by Tex
Gay people need to disassociate themselves from religion completely and stop their futile attempts to seek understanding from religious people and leaders.

Simple solution: Ignore the WorldPride Festival and the religious issues surrounding it. I couldn't think of a better way for "disassociation." There you have it, nobody gets hurt, and case is closed.

Moving to Religion forum....

the whole premise that god actually created gays is a debatable topic it self


actually the fact is that religious organization do lots to benefit mankind

Most religious people have a higher stance of morality than any non religious person and are less likely to kill, steal, cheat, etc...

Another fact is that in every organization there is an opportunity for people to be corrupt and bigoted, or ungrateful or whatever. And the opportunity can and does turn into reality.

But these hateful and predujice people who are generally a small minority get the most news.

When's the last time you heard "christians reach out to felons, showing them the love of christ"?

I love how religious people own morality. Suggesting that if your not a religious person you have no morals.

I stumbled upon this beautiful quote, its uncredited.

"Morality is doing what's right regardless of what you're told. Religion is doing what you're told regardless of what's right."

Current scientific research strongly suggests that sexuality is determined by genetics as opposed to environment. The research suggesting its environmental is minute compared to the genetic.

Besides, how exactly does a little penguin turn gay from living in his environment?

You know they have gay penguins dont you? They live together and have sex and they sit on little round rocks trying to hatch them.
There's dolphins and cats and dogs, baboons, gorillas, giraffes, elephants, birds you name it and homosexuality exists.

If animals are instinct their sexuality is determined by genetics. Humans are no different, we're all created from the same building blocks. God loves his gays!

religion is shit.
i believe in jesus, but never really bring it up,
since i dont want to be associated with this gang of hateful thugs.
if there really is a hell, i bet that most of these high and mighty a$$holes
who point their fingers at gays as being damnable will find themselves damned. hypocrites make me sick.

and yes, all gay people should shout a collective "f*** your religion".
why would you want to be a part of an establishment built on a foundation of hate, bigotry, persecution, war, murder, corruption...and well...........evil?

all gays of the world should get out of their religious societies and create a new religion of their own where everybody is welcomed

Originally posted by Echuu

actually the fact is that religious organization do lots to benefit mankind

Most religious people have a higher stance of morality than any non religious person and are less likely to kill, steal, cheat, etc...


They do very little actually. The vast majority of their "good work" is done to promote their cause of spreading Christianity. Organised Christian church's are extremely wealthy organisations whose vast wealth is used to grow and promote their ideals. To upkeep and build church's and sustain their powerful grip.

A very small percentage of their wealth goes to charitable causes.

The premise of heaven also helps entice them to do good and the threat of hell prevents them from doing wrong.

I'm not Christian but god has given me reason to know what's right and wrong. I dont need to be bribed with heaven to get me to do something good. I dont do wrong because I know it is just that and I'm a good person.

Hell plays no part in my decision, I dont believe it or heaven exists.

Who's more moral - someone who does good expecting no divine reward or someone who does something good only for a divine reward?

Christianity and morality are two synonymous that should never be used together.

ok

Please dont put words in my mouth- I never said that non religious people dont have morals- i said that people who are part of a religion generally have a higher moral stance

Who are these scientists you speak of?
Where are these gay animals?
Do you have proof?

I don't seem to hear about this much; I mean, my friend has a bunch of dogs and never once has he said, "hey my two male dogs were trying to hump each other yesterday."

I think it is environment; and there are gays that have turned straight and vica versa

for example; that gay politician who was married and had two kids;
I guess he was born gay.....


I personally don't like the term religion. Too many christians today have gotten stuck in just doing the same old routine

Originally posted by Echuu
ok

Please dont put words in my mouth- I never said that non religious people dont have morals- i said that people who are part of a religion generally have a higher moral stance


You're clearly suggesting that non religious people have sub-par morals or none at all. Putting religious people on a moral pedestal solely because their religious. That's wrong and prejudiced.


These scientists do exist, gay animals are a fact and yes there is proof. The church used to label homosexuality as "animalistic". Research the topics and you'll discover a wealth of information.



Homosexuals make up a very small percentage of the total human population, the same is true of the animal kingdom. Your friend hasn't been blessed with any gay dogs. Shame really, I dont think he'll be winning any dog shows!




He was born gay, he was living as a closet homosexual who had sex with women to keep up appearances. He loves his wife very much but not in a sexual way. It is possible for a gay man to have sex with a woman and not enjoy it. Happens all the time. Society is such that many homosexuals are afraid to come out for fear of persecution and discrimination. So they live in denial and hide their homosexuality.

I find that really hard to believe.JM

Originally posted by Tex
You're clearly suggesting that non religious people have sub-par morals or none at all. Putting religious people on a moral pedestal solely because their religious. That's wrong and prejudiced.


These scientists do exist, gay animals are a fact and yes there is proof. The church used to label homosexuality as "animalistic". Research the topics and you'll discover a wealth of information.



Homosexuals make up a very small percentage of the total human population, the same is true of the animal kingdom. Your friend hasn't been blessed with any gay dogs. Shame really, I dont think he'll be winning any dog shows!




He was born gay, he was living as a closet homosexual who had sex with women to keep up appearances. He loves his wife very much but not in a sexual way. It is possible for a gay man to have sex with a woman and not enjoy it. Happens all the time. Society is such that many homosexuals are afraid to come out for fear of persecution and discrimination. So they live in denial and hide their homosexuality.

What are you talking about? It's not prejudice, it's truth. Mass murderers, thieves, and rapists usuually are those without any type of religion. I'm not saying that unreligious people don't have a chance for that higher morality but that religious people usually do have it.
A good question to ask is where does morality come from.

I will research those topics.

"Your friend hasn't been blessed with any gay dogs. Shame really, I dont think he'll be winning any dog shows! "

I dont think that's entirely accurate. Just look at the Italian mob, very religious and very violent and crime prone. As far as mass murders go, lets not forget all of the people mass murdered by Christians during the crusades and Inquisitions.

Religious people have been responsible for more murders (in the name of their religion) than non religious people.

Originally posted by Tex
I dont think that's entirely accurate. Just look at the Italian mob, very religious and very violent and crime prone. As far as mass murders go, lets not forget all of the people mass murdered by Christians during the crusades and Inquisitions.

Religious people have been responsible for more murders (in the name of their religion) than non religious people.

I don't think that's entirely true.
The Italian mob was more "religious" per say in family values, not necessarily church going.

The Inquisitions and most of the crusades were very horrible I do agree.

I still totally despise the word religion. For me I don't have one;
I prefer a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" to being apart of a large denomination, though the Assembly of God churchs are quite un-bigoted and fair.

I suppose you could say that churchs who are religious get into more of a judgmental attitude to those that sin and that is where the hate comes from.
It runs into the practice what you preach thing. If more people were truely "Pious" instead of religious they would be more loving.

now thats a load of bs, they just think they have a higher moral standard. Difference between me who aint part of a religion and these so called higher moral standard religious people is that I dont play a freaking charade all the time.

The only element that jumpstarts more wars than oil and land combined is religion.

Luckily now the 3 major religions can stop fighting amongst themselves and focus all of their hate and anger towards the gays. angel

Maybe....there is a chance for peace? :sarcasm:

Oh.....

Out of the three, Islam is the most prejudice and ruthless one as it has the exact verses referring what is to be done with homosexuals. They have a precise law which forbids any sexuality - its illegal in Islamic countries still.

Christians follow not so persise rules - the bible isnt as detailed as Quran on homosexuality and whats to be done with offenders and such - and its not illegal in Christian countries.

Judaism has nothing on the homosexuality in the Torah, but i think for them its cultural and such.

yet they treat gay people like they were leprous

Im talking about the holy books in case you missed the whole point of my post. So do Jews!

The point was that they dont have the PERCISE RULES in the Bible the way they do in Quran and Torah doesnt have ANY rules on homosexuality and that its mostly to do with the culture of religion.

Please read the post.

yeah talk about who missed the point of the post here

yeah please do

really i dont understand why gays are willing to believe in stupid relegions who hate their very existance in the first place, and i can assure you that although some relegions might have SOME good points, they are however mostly negetive and the only reason you hear that relegious poeple generally have more morals is cause its the people who go for that relegion in the first place that are telling you.

Perhaps it is that people, who can't chose sexuality, can't chose what they have faith in. If a gay person feels Christianity is right for him, he shouldn't have to hide it. After all, we love each other for our flaws, I guess that means some people will love their God, despite its flaws, and really, I think that if there is something divine it would have flaws. Nothing is perfect.

And Christians should be careful of precedent. When they first came out of the religious closet they were persecuted left, right and centre. However that just made them even more strong headed and prepared to stay the course. I hope one day gay people take over the world, just to spite foolish, small minded, self righteous, ultimately very flawed followers of religion (and those who don't). They seem to have forgotten so much of what they preach, such as the basic "Judge not lest ye be judged" and really, if there God sides with them on such a matter I think all should be judged. But eh, I don't think God would be like that. Seems awfully petty to be the ultimate and all, but get upset about sexuality, something people have NO choice about.

Originally posted by finti
yeah talk about who missed the point of the post here

yeah please do

I see. But they dont treat gays any more harshly then Muslims or Jews do. In fact, as I mentioned homosexuality is illegal in Islamic countries - as a homosexual you lose human rights.

Not sure for Jews however, but I'll deffinitivly research that.

And Christians although being judgemental towards homosexuals as well as discriminative and prejudice particulary in America (although Europe aint that great either), have not passed the laws which take away human rights of homosexuals or made homosexuality illegal.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And Christians although being judgemental towards homosexuals as well as discriminative and prejudice particulary in America (although Europe aint that great either), have not passed the laws which take away human rights of homosexuals or made homosexuality illegal.



Until the U.S. Supreme Court ruled sodomy laws unconstitutional on 26 Jun 2003, homosexuality was illegal in 13 states.

Gay, lesbian, and bisexual employees can be fired on the basis of their sexual orientation in 34 states.

U.S. immigration laws do not allow lesbian and gay citizens or permanent residents to petition for their same-sex partners to immigrate.

Same-sex couples are denied over 1,000 benefits, rights, and protections that federal law affords to married, heterosexual couples, as well as hundreds of such protections at the state level.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE


Until the U.S. Supreme Court ruled sodomy laws unconstitutional on 26 Jun 2003, homosexuality was illegal in 13 states.

Gay, lesbian, and bisexual employees can be fired on the basis of their sexual orientation in 34 states.

U.S. immigration laws do not allow lesbian and gay citizens or permanent residents to petition for their same-sex partners to immigrate.

Same-sex couples are denied over 1,000 benefits, rights, and protections that federal law affords to married, heterosexual couples, as well as hundreds of such protections at the state level.

Uuum, I know the history - much more the Europien and what had happened to people who did practice homosexuality. Homosexuality is not illegal - the marrage is, the act is not punishable by death.

But oh, if it is, then please provide me with the link to such constitutions.

Anyway, here are some links for you, please make sure you read them - then and maybe then you can release that my consern does not lie with america only, but in the opression of minorities across the world, as i have mentioned to you before - America doesnt equal the world -

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42242

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/1858469.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1813926.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/204934.stm

http://www.dianahsieh.com/undergrad/siic.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1655961.stm

http://urj.org/ask/homosexuality/

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=72432

Some Christian ones (but you already know those)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3258041.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3205727.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4256945.stm

I have few more on Judaism, I'll provide that later.

Maybe you can't see beyond America, but some of us can.

I wipe my ass on all of those religions.

And I second that.

Religion is one thing i cannot forgive the mankind for.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Uuum, I know the history - much more the Europien and what had happened to people who did practice homosexuality. Homosexuality is not illegal - the marrage is, the act is not punishable by death.

But oh, if it is, then please provide me with the link to such constitutions.

Anyway, here are some links for you, please make sure you read them - then and maybe then you can release that my consern does not lie with america only, but in the opression of minorities across the world, as i have mentioned to you before - America doesnt equal the world -

I have few more on Judaism, I'll provide that later.

Maybe you can't see beyond America, but some of us can.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And Christians although being judgemental towards homosexuals as well as discriminative and prejudice particulary in America (although Europe aint that great either), have not passed the laws which take away human rights of homosexuals or made homosexuality illegal.

And? Are you imprisoned in america for being homosexual? Are homosexuals stoned to death? Is homosexuality illegal at present?

Well?

Have you seen the links I provided, or do you like to selectivly read what I write?

'Particulary in America' comment was made to appease people like you who cannot see beyond what is in front of your face.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And? Are you imprisoned in america for being homosexual? Are homosexuals stoned to death? Is homosexuality illegal at present?

Well?

Have you seen the links I provided, or do you like to selectivly read what I write?

'Particulary in America' comment was made to appease people like you who cannot see beyond what is in front of your face.

Clearly, laws have been passed which make homosexuality illegal and take away the human rights of homosexuals, including in America, to the contrary of your previous statement.

Do not state that Christians, particularly those in America, are judgemental of homosexuality but have not passed laws which make homosexuality illegal or take away the rights of homosexuals, and then get upset when it is proven that you are wrong.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Out of the three, Islam is the most prejudice and ruthless one as it has the exact verses referring what is to be done with homosexuals. They have a precise law which forbids any sexuality - its illegal in Islamic countries still.

Christians follow not so persise rules - the bible isnt as detailed as Quran on homosexuality and whats to be done with offenders and such - and its not illegal in Christian countries.

Judaism has nothing on the homosexuality in the Torah, but i think for them its cultural and such.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Im talking about the holy books in case you missed the whole point of my post. So do Jews!

The point was that they dont have the PERCISE RULES in the Bible the way they do in Quran and Torah doesnt have ANY rules on homosexuality and that its mostly to do with the culture of religion.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I see. But they dont treat gays any more harshly then Muslims or Jews do. In fact, as I mentioned homosexuality is illegal in Islamic countries - as a homosexual you lose human rights.

Not sure for Jews however, but I'll deffinitivly research that.

And Christians although being judgemental towards homosexuals as well as discriminative and prejudice particulary in America (although Europe aint that great either), have not passed the laws which take away human rights of homosexuals or made homosexuality illegal.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Uuum, I know the history - much more the Europien and what had happened to people who did practice homosexuality. Homosexuality is not illegal - the marrage is, the act is not punishable by death.

But oh, if it is, then please provide me with the link to such constitutions.

Anyway, here are some links for you, please make sure you read them - then and maybe then you can release that my consern does not lie with america only, but in the opression of minorities across the world, as i have mentioned to you before - America doesnt equal the world -

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42242

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/1858469.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1813926.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/204934.stm

http://www.dianahsieh.com/undergrad/siic.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1655961.stm

http://urj.org/ask/homosexuality/

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=72432

Some Christian ones (but you already know those)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3258041.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3205727.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4256945.stm

I have few more on Judaism, I'll provide that later.

Maybe you can't see beyond America, but some of us can.



You really don't know what the hell you're talking about, do you?

The Quran has "exact verses" dealing with homosexuality and
what is to be done with it? The Bible isn't as detailed as the Quran
on homosexuality? And how many times have you read the
Quran, I wonder?

Most of the references to homosexuality in the Quran are like
those of the Bible, ones relating to the story of Lot.
http://www.geocities.com/IslamAwareness/Homo/homo.html


And who says the jewish Torah has nothing on homosexuality?
Where the hell do you think the story of Lot came from?

Go and read Genesis Chapter 19, about the story of Sodom and
Gamorrah.

Go read Leviticus Ch.20, V.13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as
he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:
they shall surely be put to death; their blood upon them."
(Sounds pretty "precise" to me).

That's the Hebrew Old Testament, not the Christian New one.


As for Homosexuality outlawed in Muslim lands, and not in
the US and Europe. First of all, it's interesting that in the links
you provided about Egypt, it says that there are no official laws
against homosexuality.

But regardless, the reason why homosexuality isn't outlawed in
the US or Europe has nothing to do with Christianity, but rather
with the fact that these countries are secular. Muslim nations
are not (atleast not to the extent of the West). If the US or
western Europe wasn't secular, if they brought Christianity into
their laws like muslim countries do, then there homosexuality
would've been illegal there too.

That was a stupid comparison you made. It is akin to me comparing
the Pope with porn actor Ron Jeremy, and concluding that while
Christianity is a moral faith (because the christian Pope is a moral
man), Judaism is a completely immoral religion (because Ron
Jeremy,who is jewish, is immoral). That's nonesense.

Finally, it is none of your concern to judge these far older nations
and cultures on their views of morality. If they see homosexuality
as immoral, then that's their business. It's not for anyone to
push their moral (or immoral) views on them. They happen to see
polygamy as perfectly okay, but I'm thinking you wouldn't want
polygamy to be legalized in the West, would you?

excellent point

well from a guys point of view ..........

I think girls should have a harem of gorgeous guys too.

No that would be all wrong

Originally posted by King Burger
You really don't know what the hell you're talking about, do you?

The Quran has "exact verses" dealing with homosexuality and
what is to be done with it? The Bible isn't as detailed as the Quran
on homosexuality? And how many times have you read the
Quran, I wonder?

I read the Quran and I read the Hadith, and I know the Shaira law. How many times have you read the Hadith, Sunna, Quran and Sharia Law, if you're gonna preach to me.


Originally posted by King Burger
Most of the references to homosexuality in the Quran are like
those of the Bible, ones relating to the story of Lot.
http://www.geocities.com/IslamAwareness/Homo/homo.html


And who says the jewish Torah has nothing on homosexuality?
Where the hell do you think the story of Lot came from?

Go and read Genesis Chapter 19, about the story of Sodom and
Gamorrah.

Go read Leviticus Ch.20, V.13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as
he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:
they shall surely be put to death; their blood upon them."
(Sounds pretty "precise" to me).

That's the Hebrew Old Testament, not the Christian New one.

Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all pretty much the same in theology - newsflash! many stories of those in Hadith resemble those in Torah and Bible - read. The sharia law has a strict law...actually, go look up what Sharia is, then come back.



Originally posted by King Burger
As for Homosexuality outlawed in Muslim lands, and not in
the US and Europe. First of all, it's interesting that in the links
you provided about Egypt, it says that there are no official laws
against homosexuality.

But regardless, the reason why homosexuality isn't outlawed in
the US or Europe has nothing to do with Christianity, but rather
with the fact that these countries are secular. Muslim nations
are not (atleast not to the extent of the West). If the US or
western Europe wasn't secular, if they brought Christianity into
their laws like muslim countries do, then there homosexuality
would've been illegal there too.

And again, ignorance to what Sharia law is makes you say things like above. Google it or petes sake!

Originally posted by King Burger
That was a stupid comparison you made. It is akin to me comparing
the Pope with porn actor Ron Jeremy, and concluding that while
Christianity is a moral faith (because the christian Pope is a moral
man), Judaism is a completely immoral religion (because Ron
Jeremy,who is jewish, is immoral). That's nonesense.

Stupidity!

Please provide me with the quote at where I have suggested Christianity is a moral religon at all!


Originally posted by King Burger
Finally, it is none of your concern to judge these far older nations
and cultures on their views of morality. If they see homosexuality
as immoral, then that's their business. It's not for anyone to
push their moral (or immoral) views on them. They happen to see
polygamy as perfectly okay, but I'm thinking you wouldn't want
polygamy to be legalized in the West, would you?

At least my consernes are for human rights, unlike American consern witch is for money and oil.

And would you be happy if polyandry was legalized in the west? Not only is it unsafe but its a risk but a financial burden. But if many peple in the west thought they could afford to keep 4 or more wifes then by all means - legalize it.

So, yes im waiting for you to pin point as to where i have said Christianity was a moral religon.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Clearly, laws have been passed which make homosexuality illegal and take away the human rights of homosexuals, including in America, to the contrary of your previous statement.

Do not state that Christians, particularly those in America, are judgemental of homosexuality but have not passed laws which make homosexuality illegal or take away the rights of homosexuals, and then get upset when it is proven that you are wrong. I understand.

The point is - while most of the organized religions are trying to preach ''acceptance'' and ''tolerance'' they're doing the exact oposite.

In fact, such word as ''tolerance of homosexuals'' shouldnt be even spoken. Tolerance? We're tolerating each other? It should be acceptance and co-existance not 'tolerance'...tolerating means putting up with something...how...wrong.

And PS!!

Before my posts get misunderstood some more my very first post in this thread meant this -

Christians and Jews do not have an equivelent of Islamic Sharia Law.

Sharia in Arabic means ''the way'' and its the set of rules and laws (from economic to social) which tell Muslims how to live. Drwan upon Quran and Sunnah I think and its all about how Mohammed lived his life. It has things like dress code and domestic treatment and roles of women, homosexuals, jihad...etc.

So for example Saudi Arabia has the Sharia courts - their country is pretty much run on those laws - for example adultary is punishable by death (stoning I think)...etc.

That was my point - while Christians and Jews have no such equivelent, or to that extent. (although they could in theory have it, but they dont)

so in other words the christians and jews have no reason whatsoever to act the way they do towards the gay then

Originally posted by finti
so in other words the christians and jews have no reason whatsoever to act the way they do towards the gay then

WTF? In the bible which you said millison o times it is stated that homosexuality is wrong! Its in their HOLY book! Sheesh!

Please stop putting words in my mouth and read what i wrote. Christians have a bible in which clearly states homosexuality is wrong.
Jews have Torah which state homosexuals are wrong, Muslims have Quran which states homosexuality is wrong, and Sharia which is a series of Islamic LAWS which state homosexuality is wrong and how it is to be dealth with it.
Islamic states implement Sharia as their countrys laws. Christians and Jews do not have to that extent.

They have an actual rules - the laws. Christians and Jews have the holy books and they dont have an equivelent to Islamic Sharia which was what I was stating in the first post, and if people warent so egar to bash one or the other religon you would have seen pass what you want to see.

christians also have a thing in their book that clearly say they shall not pass judgment, they clearly dont follow this one so why should they pay more attention to that homosexuality is wrong than that of passing judgment?

Even if muslim countries have laws toward homosexuality in a indirect way so do some countries with a vast majority of christians. At least the muslim under shariah comes straight forward in their views unlike the christians ones. So in a way they are equivalent it is just one of them has it written while the other has it as subconscious moral rug.

If all Christians, Muslims, Buddhists..etc..would only follow the teachings of the founder I think you would find that they all teach love for everyone..It's the narratives that throws in the judgemental teachings and rules....

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I read the Quran and I read the Hadith, and I know the Shaira law. How many times have you read the Hadith, Sunna, Quran and Sharia Law, if you're gonna preach to me.

Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all pretty much the same in theology - newsflash! many stories of those in Hadith resemble those in Torah and Bible - read. The sharia law has a strict law...actually, go look up what Sharia is, then come back.



I too am familar with the Quran and Hadith. And if you were
indeed knowledgable of them, then you would know that there
is no text called "Sunna" or "Sharia".

"Sunna" is just arabic for "tradition".


Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Stupidity!

Please provide me with the quote at where I have suggested Christianity is a moral religon at all!

The point I was trying to make was that you were using the
fact that homosexuals aren't persecuted in the West as proof
that islam is worse than christianity on this issue (your quotes
"Christians follow not so persise rules - the bible isnt as
detailed as Quran on homosexuality and whats to be done with
offenders and such - and its not illegal in Christian countries.";
"I see. But they dont treat gays any more harshly then Muslims
or Jews do. In fact, as I mentioned homosexuality is illegal in
Islamic countries - as a homosexual you lose human rights.";
"And Christians although being judgemental towards homosexuals
as well as discriminative and prejudice particulary in America
(although Europe aint that great either), have not passed the laws
which take away human rights of homosexuals or made homosexuality
illegal."; "Uuum, I know the history - much more the Europien
and what had happened to people who did practice homosexuality.
Homosexuality is not illegal - the marrage is, the act is not punishable
by death.". I pointed out that that moronic, since these
countries would likely also outlaw homosexuality if they followed
christian laws. That they don't is due to their not following
christian laws because they are secular. Same with Israel, if the
government there followed the advice of their orthodox rabbis,
then they'd be just intolerate of any homosexuals in their country
as well. Understand?

You insist people re-read your posts. Maybe you should take your
own advice as well.


Originally posted by lil bitchiness
At least my consernes are for human rights, unlike American consern witch is for money and oil.

Yes, ofcourse, compare your own individual point of view with
the supposed view of a whole nation of 290 million.


I personally doubt you ever did read the Quran or the Hadiths,
unless ofcourse you are were raised a muslim, in which case
your opiions would show you to be an apostate, and apostates
are usually filled with too much hatred of their fomrer religion to
see straight.

You assume way too much, put words in my mouth and read what you feel like.

I made my point already - it had nothing to do with one religion being better than worse than the other, since they are all a lot of bullshit - islam and christianity.

I read the Quran and the Ahadith, hence I know the massive bullshit they both say.

Same goes for bible, although i have never fully read the bible - from what i have - its about as full of crap and hateret as Quran.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You assume way too much, put words in my mouth and read what you feel like.

I made my point already - it had nothing to do with one religion being better than worse than the other, since they are all a lot of bullshit - islam and christianity.

I read the Quran and the Ahadith, hence I know the massive bullshit they both say.

Same goes for bible, although i have never fully read the bible - from what i have - its about as full of crap and hateret as Quran.


Whatever you say.

As for the "crap" and "hatred" in the religions, well nobody's forcing
you to join them.

Originally posted by King Burger
Whatever you say.

As for the "crap" and "hatred" in the religions, well nobody's forcing
you to join them. Yep, whatever I say indeed.

And nope, noone can possibly make me join any of the above religions. I have a religion, its called Buddhism.

Any holy book, which claims that is holy, yet have contradictions in it - is not from any God - how can a god that is almighty possibly write a book then make clear contradictions.
And Bible, Torah and Quran are full of contradictions. Lets not even talk about absurdities.

some might debate whether buddhism is counted as a religion or not..............

well wouldn't count out buddhism when it came to absurdities though

Originally posted by finti
some might debate whether buddhism is counted as a religion or not..............

well wouldn't count out buddhism when it came to absurdities though

Buddhism IS counted as a religion. Ask a Tibetien or any other Monk.
I count it as a philosophy of life, and I argued agains it being a religion - like 10 times now.

Which part of Buddhism do you count as absurdity?

the entire spiritual stuff the cycle of birth, life, death and rebirth

Originally posted by finti
the entire spiritual stuff the cycle of birth, life, death

Reincarnation in other words. Fair enough, many people reject the idea of it.

But life and death aint exactly absurd - cos we're doing that right now.

the cycle of lifes you go through to reach nirvana, as of now I live when I die I die end of finti end of story

Maybe. Maybe not.

I think thats down to a core of belief, by absurdities, I was more talking of absurdities like this - in the bible some people had an incredile life spans -

''5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.''

Thats a LONG life... reeve

Or like when god made the light and the darkness on earth on the day one, but he didnt make light producing objects till the day four.

Ok, and then theres a verse about ehoram who was 32 years old when he began to reign and he reigned for eight years and then died, so he was 40 years old. After his death, his youngest son Ahaziah began to reign at the age of 42 (22:1-2). So the son (Ahaziah) was two years older than his father. reeve

And then Quran says

Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers. reeve

Mary, the mother of Jesus, was the sister of Aaron. (Apparently, Muhammad confused Mary with Miriam.)

Then If you get dirty (by touching a woman or something), and can't find any clean water around at prayer time, you can clean up by rubbing your face and hands in some clean dirt. reeve

But then at night the sun sets in a muddy spring.

reeve eeh?

Originally posted by finti
the cycle of lifes you go through to reach nirvana, as of now I live when I die I die end of finti end of story


You might come back fintietta...

Lil B...Do the Buddhists have a book?

Buddhist have scriptures - they're called Sutra. They all deal with different things. They dont have one main book, like other religions have...Tiptaka, as many may know is the largest one.

I've never read it - I dont speak the language it is originaly writen in, and the English translation of it takes up 42 volumes.

Many of those scriptures are chanted in the Monistaries - its not something one keeps besides the bed. hehe

They are about self discipline and conduct. How to avoid greed, hate and deliusions of life.

The Kalama Sutra is rather important one, because it has the advice the Buddha gives about what person chooses to believe in and what they don't.

Buddha says that perspon shouldn't follow anything blindly if they think that what is being taught is unwholesome, would be censured by the wise and which leads to harm and suffering, which is what buddhism is trying to avoid.

^^ That is from the scroles (obviously not quoted, but its what it says)

kama sutra

I don't know much about Buddha, but it sounds like he gives some good advise.

I wonder if Krishnah also gave that kind of advise also.

Jesus I know did.

Nice one

I wish people wouldn't say that gays should disassociate themselves from religion and form their own. There's no reason for that. The anti-gay people are the ones who should disassociate themselves from Christianity. I am a devout Christian and am planning to become a priest. I feel that the Lord created and loves gay people.

It is true that the more research that is done on homosexuality, the more proof we are seeing that its causes are biological rather than environmental. Even if this were not true, I don't feel that it makes sense theologically to say that homosexuality is wrong or un-Christian just because it is in the Bible -- Bible quotations have been used to support such concepts as slavery and the idea that women are inferior to men. The fact is that the Bible is a book that was written by real people who lived in a different time and in a different culture -- it is a book produced by humans, it is not God's diary.

Originally posted by Echuu
the whole premise that god actually created gays is a debatable topic it self


Most religious people have a higher stance of morality than any non religious person and are less likely to kill, steal, cheat, etc...



what so i'm more likely to kill someone? more likely to steal? more likely to cheat??????? Eh don't think so buddy, i have morals, and am just as likely i'd say as any religous person. Thats quite an insulting statement.

It's nice to know that everybody's getting along.

*Starts playing a mixed CD of "Why Can't We Be Friends" and the Reading Rainbow theme song.*

*Grabs a banner with a large rainbow on it and puts on leather, assless chaps.*

Originally posted by FeceMan
It's nice to know that everybody's getting along.

*Starts playing a mixed CD of "Why Can't We Be Friends" and the Reading Rainbow theme song.*

*Grabs a banner with a large rainbow on it and puts on leather, assless chaps.*



I'll bring cake!!

Originally posted by finti
kama sutra


Best religion ever!

Originally posted by Tex
I love how religious people own morality. Suggesting that if your not a religious person you have no morals.

Morals/ethics come from religion. To accept morality and in the same breath condemn religion as the scourge of humanity is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Tex
I stumbled upon this beautiful quote, its uncredited.

"Morality is doing what's right regardless of what you're told. Religion is doing what you're told regardless of what's right."

"Beautiful?"

Religion is living by the morals, that are right, as your lifestyle, as told to you by the God who gave them to you.

Originally posted by Tex
Current scientific research strongly suggests that sexuality is determined by genetics as opposed to environment. The research suggesting its environmental is minute compared to the genetic.

Besides, how exactly does a little penguin turn gay from living in his environment?

You know they have gay penguins dont you? They live together and have sex and they sit on little round rocks trying to hatch them.
There's dolphins and cats and dogs, baboons, gorillas, giraffes, elephants, birds you name it and homosexuality exists.

If animals are instinct their sexuality is determined by genetics. Humans are no different, we're all created from the same building blocks. God loves his gays!

It's pretty clear that homosexuality is a genetic defect in some cases and social/environmental in most others. It's possible that our processed food diet contributes in some way.

Originally posted by MRasheed
Morals/ethics come from religion. To accept morality and in the same breath condemn religion as the scourge of humanity is ridiculous.

"Beautiful?"

Religion is living by the morals, that are right, as your lifestyle, as told to you by the God who gave them to you.

It's pretty clear that homosexuality is a genetic defect in some cases and social/environmental in most others. It's possible that our processed food diet contributes in some way.

How would you explain a moral atheist then, if a fear and/or love of God is needed for people to have morals?

Which religion then?

In the cases of being born gay (you call it a defect), how can the homosexual be held accountable in the eyes of God? Pretty sure their were plenty of gays frolicking about before Campbell started putting chicken soup in a can.

Originally posted by Robtard
How would you explain a moral atheist then, if a fear and/or love of God is needed for people to have morals? Which religion then?


I said it comes from religion, as in that's the very the origin of the concept.


Originally posted by Robtard
In the cases of being born gay (you call it a defect), how can the homosexual be held accountable in the eyes of God?

The same way we all are. Each of us has his/her own particular sin that is that person's special vice that they struggle with over all others. It's part of the Game... overcoming temptation and sin and doing good and believing in the One who made you so that ye may prosper.

It's why we're here.

Originally posted by MRasheed
I said it comes from religion, as in that's the very the origin of the concept.




The same way we all are. Each of us has his/her own particular sin that is that person's special vice that they struggle with over all others. It's part of the Game... overcoming temptation and sin and doing good and believing in the One who made you so that ye may prosper.

It's why we're here.

And before religion? People were simply with morals?

Which religion is needed to be moral though? Or simply being religious equates morality?

Yeah, doesn't really compare. Guess those born gay (aka defective sinners?) just got a raw deal.

Originally posted by Robtard
And before religion? People were simply with morals?

Adam was the prophet of God. The first one. There was always religion. God was with us from the beginning.

Originally posted by Robtard
Which religion is needed to be moral though?

Whichever ones that lists mandatory moral tenants in the faith. I know the three Abrahamic ones do.

Originally posted by Robtard
Or simply being religious equates morality?

Only if the religion in question lists the moral tenants as part of the faith.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yeah, doesn't really compare.

*snort* Why not?

Originally posted by Robtard
Guess those born gay (aka defective sinners?) just got a raw deal.

All sinners are born with their own pet temptation to overcome. All of us. It's a weakness inherent in the Flesh. The homosexual doesn't have it any worse than the fornicator, the adulterer, the thief, etc.

Originally posted by MRasheed
Adam was the prophet of God. The first one. There was always religion. God was with us from the beginning.



Whichever ones that lists mandatory moral tenants in the faith. I know the three Abrahamic ones do.



Only if the religion in question lists the moral tenants as part of the faith.



*snort* Why not?



All sinners are born with their own pet temptation to overcome. All of us. It's a weakness inherent in the Flesh. The homosexual doesn't have it any worse than the fornicator, the adulterer, the thief, etc.

That answers my question, 'man started with Adam and the magical garden; nothing came before.' I obviously don't believe this story.

As a Muslim, wouldn't not submitted to the will of God via Mohammad's writings/teachings/morals be an affront to God? My Qur'an reading is rusty though.

Snort? Because they're still born gay, it wasn't their choice; it's part of who they are. It's not like you or I choosing to steal that lollipop. Apples to oranges.

And you know people are natural born adulterers and thieves and this is who they are how? The urge to ****, sure, that's natural. But going back to being born gay, it would be a double-whammy, not only were you born with the urge to ****, but to **** the wrong sex.

Originally posted by Robtard
That answers my question, 'man started with Adam and the magical garden; nothing came before.' I obviously don't believe this story.

And I obviously do. How did you think I was going to recieve your "And before religion?" line?

Originally posted by Robtard
As a Muslim, wouldn't not submitted to the will of God via Mohammad's writings/teachings/morals be an affront to God? My Qur'an reading is rusty though.

What are you talking about now, Robtard? Did you ask me what religion has morals in it, or did you ask me what religion do I subscribe to?

Originally posted by Robtard
Snort? Because they're still born gay, it wasn't their choice; it's part of who they are. It's not like you or I choosing to steal that lollipop. Apples to oranges.

Just because you and I weren't born with a natural tendency towards theft making it an especially difficult temptation for us doesn't mean other people aren't experiencing this.

Originally posted by Robtard
And you know people are natural born adulterers and thieves and this is who they are how? The urge to ****, sure, that's natural. But going back to being born gay, it would be a double-whammy, not only were you born with the urge to ****, but to **** the wrong sex.

I suspect that the guy born to stalk and kill hookers and throw their chopped up bits in a plastic garbage bag that he tosses off the bridge has it worse.

Originally posted by MRasheed
And I obviously do. How did you think I was going to recieve your "And before religion?" line?



What are you talking about now, Robtard? Did you ask me what religion has morals in it, or did you ask me what religion do I subscribe to?



Just because you and I weren't born with a natural tendency towards theft making it an especially difficult temptation for us doesn't mean other people aren't experiencing this.



I suspect that the guy born to stalk and kill hookers and throw their chopped up bits in a plastic garbage bag that he tosses off the bridge has it worse.

I didn't want to assume, hence the question.

You've said Islam. Am curious as you seem to think that Christians and Jews are okay in the eyes of God, despite not subscribing to Islam.

And I asked in the question after, how do you know people are born thieves and adulterers?

Don't know, sin is sin in the eyes of God, no? John had something that might disagree though.

Originally posted by Robtard
You've said Islam. Am curious as you seem to think that Christians and Jews are okay in the eyes of God, despite not subscribing to Islam.

The Holy Qur'an 2: 62
(1) Those who believe in the Qur'an, and those who follow the Jewish scriptures, and the christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Originally posted by Robtard
And I asked in the question after, how do you know people are born thieves and adulterers?

How do you know they aren't?

I know based on how temptation/sin functions in the world.

Originally posted by Robtard
Don't know, sin is sin in the eyes of God, no?

There are certain sins that are VERY serious and are actually unforgivable to God. But that post was in reference to you saying how hard homosexuals had it (presumably as far as control is concerned). The serial killer would seem to have it harder to me.

Originally posted by MRasheed
The Holy Qur'an 2: 62
(1) Those who believe in the Qur'an, and those who follow the Jewish scriptures, and the christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.



How do you know they aren't?

I know based on how temptation/sin functions in the world.



There are certain sins that are VERY serious and are actually unforgivable to God. But that post was in reference to you saying how hard homosexuals had it (presumably as far as control is concerned). The serial killer would seem to have it harder to me.

Isn't that a reference to those non Muslims that still follow the principles of the Qur'an? IE who are essentially like Muslims in certain regards.

I don't know with 100% certainty that being a thief isn't something genetic; it does seem to be a learned social behavior though.

How does do they function in the real world?

Yeah, I'd have to look it up in John(?) as it's hazy. But also recall sin being equal.

Originally posted by Robtard
Isn't that a reference to those non Muslims that still follow the principles of the Qur'an? IE who are essentially like Muslims in certain regards.

Yup. Believe in God, avoid evil, do good. That's the message of God.

Originally posted by Robtard
I don't know with 100% certainty that being a thief isn't something genetic; it does seem to be a learned social behavior though.

Just like homosexuality, theft can be both a genetic anomaly as well as an appetite cultivated through learned behavior.

Originally posted by Robtard
How does do they function in the real world?

We already talked about that. Everybody has their pet temptation that they struggle with over most or all others. For the one person, his biggest temptation is sex with other women other than his wife; for the other it is theft, for the other it is intercourse with people of his same gender. Everybody comes here with their very own special temptation on a scantron sheet and a No. 2 pencil they must get through life with.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yeah, I'd have to look it up in John(?) as it's hazy. But also recall sin being equal.

There are sins He will not forgive.

Which sins are unforgivable and which scripture (OT, NT, Qur'an?) are you using?

I do find it funny/odd when people cherry-pick, let Christians quoting Leviticus to condemn homosexuality.

Originally posted by Robtard
Which sins are unforgivable and which scripture (OT, NT, Qur'an?) are you using?

The Holy Qur'an 4:48
(5) Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

Originally posted by Robtard
I do find it funny/odd when people cherry-pick...

Me too.

The Holy Qur'an 4:116
(7) Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).

Those passages are similar to the OT, having no other gods before God.

Christianity ultimately really only has one unforgivable sin, rejecting the Jesus.

You're a heretic if you reject any of the main tenants which include the divinity of Jesus, the divine sonship of Jesus, the concepts of Original Sin, the Resurrection, and Jesus dying for the sins of mankind.

But once you accept Jesus as the savior, you're good with God. Pretty much comes as a packaged deal.

Originally posted by Robtard
But once you accept Jesus as the savior, you're good with God. Pretty much comes as a packaged deal. It's like life insurance. lol

Get your policy now, don't wait until an accident happens.

That's actually a misconception that even many Christians have about it, but it is not true. Just like it is in Islam, a Christian is not actually saved until he/she walks the talk too.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
It's like life insurance. lol

Get your policy now, don't wait until an accident happens.

Basically yes. Once you're dead, it's too late. BETTER HURRY AND GET YOURS NOW WHILE SUPPLIES LAST!

Though there are some sects of Christianity that stipulate a soul can be saved and enter heaven even after death. Think the LDS might be one of them.

Originally posted by MRasheed
That's actually a misconception that even many Christians have about it, but it is not true. Just like it is in Islam, a Christian is not actually saved until he/she walks the talk too.

Yeah, but God forgives those that stray along the path though, so again, there is no real "X" amount of time is needed, just belief in the end.

However much time you need to make sure our good deeds outweigh your bad deeds sure.

Originally posted by MRasheed
That's actually a misconception that even many Christians have about it, but it is not true. Just like it is in Islam, a Christian is not actually saved until he/she walks the talk too. But walking the talk is just doing good things, so then, a non-believer can actually walk in righteousness.

Originally posted by MRasheed
However much time you need to make sure our good deeds outweigh your bad deeds sure.

Except Jesus-God forgives bad deeds, as long as you accept him/Him as the savior, dude.

EG if I have 7,542 bad deeds and 5,526 good deeds. Accepting Jesus as my savior washes away the bad deeds, ergo, it's now 5,526 good to nil bad; I'm in pretty good shape in receiving that holy drop-kick through the pearly-gates once my ticket punches out.

Originally posted by Robtard
Except Jesus-God forgives bad deeds, as long as you accept him/Him as the savior, dude.

EG if I have 7,542 bad deeds and 5,526 good deeds. Accepting Jesus as my savior washes away the bad deeds, ergo, it's now 5,526 good to nil bad; I'm in pretty good shape in receiving that holy drop-kick through the pearly-gates once my ticket punches out.

Your 'good' deeds as an unbeliever mean nothing, and are like "dust blowing away on the wind." Consequently, after your death bed conversion, your good deeds tally is at 0, and while your bad deeds were forgiven, the unforgivable ones are still there! So if you are too weak from being about to die, how are you possibly going to fix that within the next 3 minutes or whatever?

You see what I'm saying?

Originally posted by Deja~vu
But walking the talk is just doing good things, so then, a non-believer can actually walk in righteousness.

No. "Walking the talk" is literally the physical manifestation of your belief, that's why the 'good' deeds of the unbeliever are worthless.

They are against gays getting married not just because they are gay.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
They are against gays getting married not just because they are gay.

True. Many people mistakenly believe that Christians hate gay people for being gay, which isn't true. (Though I can't speak for EVERYONE.)

I don't hate gay people at all. It's the acts that are the sin. And I'm a sinner myself. I can no more hate gays than I can hate myself. "Hate the sin, not the sinner" and all that jazz.

Originally posted by MRasheed
Morals/ethics come from religion. To accept morality and in the same breath condemn religion as the scourge of humanity is ridiculous.

Actually, ethics is a philosophical digression from morality. Ethics is not of religious nature, but rather an attempt to make sense and logic of right and wrong, through use of philosophy over religion and God.

Additionally, morality is traditionally viewed as common sense. We've gotten a great deal of good from religion, and it's not a shame to embrace these values without embracing the religion itself. You can embrace the values of something, while at the same time curse the rest of it.

Take Hitler for example (Always Hitler), just because he was a bad man doesn't mean you can't give his intelligence credit. He was a smart man, of that there is no doubt, no matter what evil he did.

Originally posted by TacDavey
True. Many people mistakenly believe that Christians hate gay people for being gay, which isn't true. (Though I can't speak for EVERYONE.)

I don't hate gay people at all. It's the acts that are the sin. And I'm a sinner myself. I can no more hate gays than I can hate myself. "Hate the sin, not the sinner" and all that jazz.

"Hate the sin, love the sinner", a quote from the man who also said " I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ"

Originally posted by Super Marie 64
"Hate the sin, love the sinner", a quote from the man who also said " I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ"

Heh, I didn't know who said it originally. Doesn't change the point I was making.