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Hmm let's discuss....Marvel's judge/jury vs. the great bastardly Devil himself.

I say lucifer would win.

LT is just a servent. Lucifer is able to do whatever he wants.

He is the first son of god, and the first creation.
He created time.

Though, I would pick Lucifer (so that also necessary mean Michael) above LT. This tree beign are literally the most pwoerful beigns in Comic universe ever, with exception of God.

LT judgemetn wouldn't affect on Lucifer, since Lucifer and Micheal are first son of God and LT is limited with this almighty judgesagainst Lucifer, you cannot judge God firs son.

and The Spectre is equal to LT, one time Lucifer was moving the moon and Spectre showed up asking him why he was moving it and Lucifer told him to go away and Spectre hung his head down and left without saying anything back to him....... lol, so Lucifer wins ez.

Originally posted by kevdude
and The Spectre is equal to LT, one time Lucifer was moving the moon and Spectre showed up asking him why he was moving it and Lucifer told him to go away and Spectre hung his head down and left without saying anything back to him....... lol, so Lucifer wins ez.

I don't think Spectre is equal to LT.

If Spectre was equal to LT then he would have as many fight scenes as LT.

during the DC/Marvel crossover it was shown the Spectre/LT are equals, the Spectre is The Wrath of God, enough said.........

He's the Wrath of God. And he still fights in a physical form? Well... makes me feel bad for every DC character who worships their DC God.

Originally posted by kevdude
during the DC/Marvel crossover it was shown the Spectre/LT are equals, the Spectre is The Wrath of God, enough said.........

Hulk also punched Superman in a crossover and he just stood there.

No basically at the time of the crosovers, Living Tribunal was at the spectre's power level, however it was only after that that LT was given the kind of powers he has now, hes wayyyyy above the spectre now. however, best LT can do is destroy 1 universe at 1 time, however lucifer has 50% of the power needed to actually create his own multiverse, which makes lucifer the winner.

Lucifer Morningstar wins hands down go hang your head low LT.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
No basically at the time of the crosovers, Living Tribunal was at the spectre's power level, however it was only after that that LT was given the kind of powers he has now, hes wayyyyy above the spectre now. however, best LT can do is destroy 1 universe at 1 time, however lucifer has 50% of the power needed to actually create his own multiverse, which makes lucifer the winner.

Wasn't The Infinity Saga before DC vs Marvel? LT was always at that level, more powerful than Spectre. Just cause they we're paired together does not mean their equals. Ex: Lobo Vs. Wolverine, Flash Vs. Quick Silver, Aquaman Vs. Namor, Superman Vs. Hulk, DARKSEID VS. THANOS - and we all know that Darkseid ain't no Thanos...level.



I guess someone forgot to send a memo to Fenris about 1] taking control of Lucifer and 2] killing GOD's other son Michael.




How does that bare anything? God creates angels and men. Angel's servant of God, and men have free will. Yet Angels > men.

Just 'cause Lucifer has free will doesn't make him more powerful than LT. And since Lucifer doesn't work for God, and LT does - guess why God would favor? When you get down to it, both are creations of God. So why would a servant of God not be more powerful than a free willed creation? And no, free will does not equal power. I have no doubt that Presence could've killed Lucifer or force Lucifer to be his servant if he wanted.

Originally posted by Beyonder
I guess someone forgot to send a memo to Fenris about 1] taking control of Lucifer and 2] killing GOD's other son Michael.


I guess someone has forgot to mention that *BOTH* Lucifer and Michael were royally ****ed up by the creation shattering force released by the Fenris wolf BEFORE Lucifer was possessed by him and killed Michael.

So... Anyone think Lucifer could take the IG?

Originally posted by Mider
Lucifer Morningstar wins hands down go hang your head low LT.

Yeah! F*ck LT!

Originally posted by Beyonder I guess someone forgot to send a memo to Fenris about 1] taking control of Lucifer and 2] killing GOD's other son Michael

As I remember, Fenris was only able to control Lucifer, because he has prepared for it for ages AND Lucifer was already very weakened prior to the confrontation because of the poison cherub that had him reeling.

Originally posted by BeyonderHow does that bare anything? God creates angels and men. Angel's servant of God, and men have free will. Yet Angels > men.

Just 'cause Lucifer has free will doesn't make him more powerful than LT. And since Lucifer doesn't work for God, and LT does - guess why God would favor? When you get down to it, both are creations of God. So why would a servant of God not be more powerful than a free willed creation? And no, free will does not equal power. I have no doubt that Presence could've killed Lucifer or force Lucifer to be his servant if he wanted.

Ok, lets say that the Presence and TOAA are really one for arguments sake(because obviously, I dont agree with them being one).

Now, to the business at hand. I disagree with the notion of God's servants being more powerful than the "free willed creations", because, first of all, Lucifer is not just a free willed creation. He, along with Mikey, are the most powerful beings next to God, which means that God specifically created them as next to him in power WHATEVER happens to the three of them. I mean you didnt see the Angels(serving God) became more powerful than Lucifer when he stop serving God, do you?

Now this battle is a good one, and if we actually stop basing our aguments on their status as blah, blah, blah for God, and actually start basing on the things that theyve ACCOMPLISHED, then this battle wouldnt be more confusing. And as for me, Ill give this to Lucifer, because he has atleast shown his powers to be above the multiverse level(eg. the demiurgic explosion). I have yet to see LT accomplish a feat like that. But then again, Im not a keen follower of LT, so LT fans are welcome to point me out on a feat he accomplished that can rival Lucifer's, and will discuss about it.

just wondering Synchro, how would u describe TOAA to The Presence?? who is TOAA in your view?

Synchr i dont think that any one is actually a FAN of living tribunal, the guy's a real bore.

Basically, for me, I think that TOAA and The Presence have nothing in relation to each other, save for them being the all knowing, all powerful creators of their respective multiverses, thats it. Ill just post here what I posted before on another thread as to why I dont think theyre one.

The Presence and TOAA are equal, but Ive always had my doubts about this idea of the Presence and TOAA being one because of the reason that there should only be one God. I mean ofcourse here in our real world(or in the christian faith), there should only be one God. But this is only comics, it isnt real. How can you incorporate our beliefs into this piece of paper? Its concepts doesnt even apply to our world(e.g humans with superpowers), so who's to say that the concept of God in comics is different to our world(e.g The Presence and TOAA are not one but two separate Supreme Beings).

Another reason is.... Ive seen people here say that because the Presence and TOAA are one, then that means that the Living Tribunal is above all the beings in the multiverse, including Lucifer and Michael, because "God"(the supposed Presence and TOAA) made him in charge of it.

Well, that reasoning is wrong, because your only looking at what TOAA did. If your going to make this 2 beings into one, then you also should consider what the Presence did: Creating Michael and Lucifer as having NO equal and only God as above them.

Having said all that, if we link it all up, then the result will be: God created LT, Michael and Lucifer, with LT being above the 2 but at the same time the brothers are above LT.

Confusing isnt it? That is another reason why I disagree about The Presence and TOAA as being one.

Now ofcourse, this is only my own humble opinion. Im not trying to force somebody to believe in what I believe in. Thats just the way I see it. Now if anybody disagrees, thats cool with me. If anybody wants to refute my statement, then state you reasons and Ill gladly discuss it with you.

LT was created by god and given unbelieveable powers to protect the multiuniverse , and he is back'ed up by him so if had to fight lucifer morning star god would give LT unlimited powers that even lucifer can't withstand. LT wins servant of god.

yeah that is confusing if u put it that way, in my opinion of The Presence and TOAA are the same tho, the LT is above all of the Marvel Universe as is The Word and The Spectre is in the DC Universe, The LT, The Word and The Spectre are messengers for the most High (God).

during DC/Marvel crossover they both went looking for God, putting everything together that The Presence and TOAA are the same being, their can only be 1 God, some call him The Presence some call him TOAA, they are just aspects of how u look at God (Yahweh).

Lucifer and Michael are above The Word and Spectre and should be above LT, they both are Yahweh's most favorites sons, nobody comes close the them and the only being above them is The Presence. LT is the guardian of the MU as Spectre is the guardian of the DCU, together DCU+MU = Creation.

Living Tribunal 2nd most powerful in the MU only, God is above him, but if u talk about everything that God created then Lucifer and Michael are above him. the Brothers with The Presence watching over them created Creation, and LT job is to watch over that half of Creation(MU) and Spectres job is to watch over the other half(DCU).

Thanos became a god like being when he had the heart and LT lost to him, Lucifer has gone up against some god like beings before and ripped them apart pretty ez. winner Lucifer Morningstar.

but then again if God gave LT power to win over Lucifer he probably could, but that would be kinda like cheating tho rit?

Originally posted by kevdude
yeah that is confusing if u put it that way, in my opinion of The Presence and TOAA are the same tho, the LT is above all of the Marvel Universe as is The Word and The Spectre is in the DC Universe, The LT, The Word and The Spectre are messengers for the most High (God).

Nope. Not sure what the word is, but Spectre does not guard over the multiverse. Heck, Spectre is part of the JSA. Have you seen LT needing to join some team?



Again: DC Vs. Marvel had:

Darkseid Vs. Thanos - we all know Thanos is more powerful than Darkseid
Lobo Vs. Wolverine - Lobo would kill Wolverine
Aquaman Vs. Namor - Aquaman wishes he was equal to Namor
Flash Vs. Quick Silver - well QS ain't quick enough to match Flash

Same role DOES NOT mean equal in power.

Spectre isn't on LT's level. So they were looking for God. Well they both serve God so why wouldn't they both look for him? But does that mean their equal in power?

LT = guardian of the multiverse
Spectre = gods fury

Anti-Monitor, Parallax, Emperor Joker have all put Spectre down.



The Brothers were reconned into being PAWNS of both LT and Spectre. God created Lucifer, Michael, and Living Tribunal. Where else do you think LT came from? He's just as much of a son of God as any of them.



Thanos had the Heart Of The Universe. HOTU = TOAA's power Lucifer has never gone up against the Presence and ripped him apart. Thanos with the Heart would kill LT, Lucifer, Michael, and Spectre.

How did Thanos get such a power? All part of TOAA/God's plan.



So powerful yet he was controlled?

nope never have seen LT joining a team, but Spectre does have a human spirit with him so i don't find it that surprising he is in the JSA. Spectres power limits get stronger and weaker from time to time it is just how much power The Presence decides how much he has. Ive read that a full powered Spectre is up to Living Tribunals power.

oh and the Brothers i was talking about was Lucifer and Michael not the DC/Marvel brothers. and ummm when i said Lucifer has gone up against God like beings, meaning very powerful monsters not The Presence, Lucifer wouldn't last 1 sec with God...........

God gave lucifer and michael (and hence, elaine) powers that equalled his own. The only others to have power equal to god are the prescence, and genesis.

So DCGod and Lucifer have equal powers? And Lucifer has half the power to create one universe? Pitiful!

Deal it it people LT eats it against Luficer Morningstar.

All these examples are like blah blah blah God's son blah blah then they give an example of something like Odin could do. Not saying Odin isn't that powerful but he's obviously not the top of the chain.

Yes, but Luicfrer and Micheal are equla in powers, but still when they fought, when Lucfer rebelled for the first time, Michel beat him, why, beacuse God was backing Micheal up, so if God woudl abck LT, LT would win, but othewrwise, netural space, I give more chance to Lucifer, why would God give more power to LT, servant than to his own son. Yes this son rebbeled, but God has nothing to worry about, God is still above anything or anyone. But I think Lucifer would also went down agaisnt Thanos when he become God like powers, or maybe not, maybe true God gave the powers to be protecetd by anythign, no matter what, except himslef of course.

You're thinking like the MGod is a bible copycat like the DCGod though. And like they're the one in the same. There's no love or favoritism with MGod. There's TOAA then there's LT, keeper of balance.

It's almost like TOAA is a telephone system/company, LT is the workers, and the rest of creation are the phones in the homes. LT makes sure phones that should be on are on and phones that should be off are off. Making sure the lines and connections are in good condition and everything. LT has the power over all of that with only TOAA to answer to because if there was no phone system/company, there would be no phones.

It's less like an angelic host and more of an organized system you see. An organized system of two entities... heh.

Originally posted by kevdude yeah that is confusing if u put it that way, in my opinion of The Presence and TOAA are the same tho, the LT is above all of the Marvel Universe as is The Word and The Spectre is in the DC Universe, The LT, The Word and The Spectre are messengers for the most High (God).

Nothing to say about this, your just basically disagreeing with me without refuting my statement.

Originally posted by kevdude during DC/Marvel crossover they both went looking for God, putting everything together that The Presence and TOAA are the same being, their can only be 1 God, some call him The Presence some call him TOAA, they are just aspects of how u look at God (Yahweh).

Did they really say that their can only be 1 God? Coz I was sure as hell didnt read them saying that.

Originally posted by kevdude but then again if God gave LT power to win over Lucifer he probably could, but that would be kinda like cheating tho rit?

One minute. As I understand, LT doesnt get power from TOAA. TOAA already gave him power from the beginning to protect the multiverse, and thats it. The power TOAA gave him in the beginning is still the power he has now. It doesnt go up and down like the Spectre.

Originally posted by Beyonder So powerful yet he was controlled?

Your underestimating Fenris here. Fenris is the embodiment of Destruction and Chaos. In Norse Mythology, Fenris the Wolf, son of Loki, was said to bring about the end of the world(or in the Lucifer story, the end of the universe): Ragnarok. So going by his status how can you expect a very weakened Lucifer to beat or even avoid being controlled by him? Fenris is not just "another god".

I will agree with you though that Thanos with HOTU would beat everyone to a pulp, including Lucifer, Michael, The Spectre and The Living Tribunal.

1. The Presence
2. The Source
3. Rama Kushna
4. H'ronmeer
5.Meshta
6.Gyges and Garamas (with God power)
7.Great Evil Beast (appeared in an issue in which the Infinity Avengers kinda ripped off if you read it carefully)
----->8.Spectre at his full potential (omnipotent is unbeatable rather you're omnipresent or omniscient)
9. Mawu (the religious God of Africa shown in Spectre #58 )
10.The Voice (An entity part of the Presence)
11.The Word
12. Wally the God Boy
----->13. Lucifer Morningstar
14. Archangel Michael

For all you who said both that Spectre is equal to LT and below Lucifer at the same time... 2nd to God only my ass.

LT=big gold dude who acts as the WILL OF GOD. That means whatever God wants, LT can do. The only thing that puts him below God is that he can't do shit if God doesn't want him to. So if Lucy wants to fight LT, he wants to fight God. And don't even start saying he can beat God.

And for the record, I'm not saying that TOAA and Presence are the same, I'm saying that they are parallel. Idenitcal in every way, but separate.

WOAH!!!! your list is massively exaggerated, Dizzle. What the hell? How in the hell that 12 other beings are more powerful than Lucifer and Michael. Wally the God Boy?? H'ronmeer?? Meshta?? GYGES AND GARAMAS??????!!!!!!!???????? You must be kidding me. Why dont you prove it, genius. Give me evidence that this 12 beings can EVEN create 1/3 of the multiverse, prove to me that they can withstand the demiurgic explosion standing on ground zero, without having a TAN. LOL!!! Rama Kushna is just a Death Goddess of a MINOR eastern religion. So what are you talking about?

And yes Lucifer and Michael are next to God. Go read the entire Lucifer Comic Book, before you start saying things.

Yes, LT is the will of God, but guess what? that will can only be exercised against those who exist IN THE MULTIVERSE. And guess what again? Lucifer and Michael existed BEFORE the multiverse.

I will be waiting for your reply.

WOAH!!!! your list is massively exaggerated, Dizzle. What the hell? How in the hell that 12 other beings are more powerful than Lucifer and Michael. Wally the God Boy?? H'ronmeer?? Meshta?? GYGES AND GARAMAS??????!!!!!!!???????? You must be kidding me. Why dont you prove it, genius. Give me evidence that this 12 beings can EVEN create 1/3 of the multiverse, prove to me that they can withstand the demiurgic explosion standing on ground zero, without having a TAN. LOL!!! Rama Kushna is just a Death Goddess of a MINOR eastern religion. So what are you talking about?

And yes Lucifer and Michael are next to The Presence. Go read the entire Lucifer Comic Book, before you start saying things.

Yes, LT is the will of God, but guess what? that will can only be exercised against those who exist IN THE MULTIVERSE. And guess what again? Lucifer and Michael existed BEFORE the multiverse.

I will be waiting for your reply.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Yes, but Luicfrer and Micheal are equla in powers, but still when they fought, when Lucfer rebelled for the first time, Michel beat him, why, beacuse God was backing Micheal up

Do you have proof of this? Where did it say in the Lucifer comic that God backed Michael up in order to beat Lucifer and kick him out of heaven? Tell me the issue number.

just the fact that The Spectre went looking for The Father and LT went along with him should be enough to prove that they both are the same, In DC/Vertigo they have the Christian/Jewish God as their God, and since Marvel and DC came together in a crossover that means that Christan God is over that comic book as well.. LT has said before The One Above All is on High(Heaven). any time Spectre and LT have talked together they talked like they have known each other for a very long time.. if this is not enough information that their is only 1 God in both DC/Marvel then i give up lol

becase they both looking for their father doesn't mean their the same as power, will and wrath of god are two different things. Yes they both serve him but there powers are totaly different. LT has more power than spectre he doesn't need a human host.

Well, for me, im not convinced, because they went searching for God, but did they found and proved that the TOAA and Presence are one? No.

Originally posted by Synchro
Yes, LT is the will of God, but guess what? that will can only be exercised against those who exist IN THE MULTIVERSE. And guess what again? Lucifer and Michael existed BEFORE the multiverse.

Lucifer will have no power over LT because LT's not in the DC universe, har har har. What a cop-out.

yeah so Lucifer Morningstar is not from Marvel Universe so how does LT win again? oh and for your information Lucifer Morningstar can exist outside of realitiy Lt loses this fight FINALLY SOMEONE KICKS HIS ASS but then again who cant.

LT is not from the DC universe so how does Lucifer win again?

Originally posted by Synchro

And yes Lucifer and Michael are next to The Presence. Go read the entire Lucifer Comic Book, before you start saying things.

Next to GOD? Guess what? So is LT.



Yes, as lackeys created by the Presence to bring forth the Multiverse. And Lucifer needed his brother to create the entire Multiverse. And age does NOT equal power. So what if there created before the Multiverse? Does that prove that there going to be more powerful than someone came later into the Multiverse? Furthermore, can you prove that LT was created after the Multiverse was created?

And guess what? Lucifer has been weakened or hurt from beings existing in the Multiverse.



Destruction and Chaos are below LT. Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion/Choas/Order are all below the Infinity Gautlet. All of them including the IG is below LT. Fenris is still a planetary threat. Ragnorak happens to the Norse Gods. Not any other pantheon. Eternity is above such pantheons. LT is above Eternity.

If Lucifer is so powerful, why is he constantly having to deal with beings lower in the totem pole than him? The fact that he's can be weakened or hurt says alot about his vulnerability to LT. As for LT only operating in the Multiverse and Lucifer exist before or outside, it isn't much of an argument since beings lower in power than LT who also exist in the Multiverse can and have effected Lucifer.

eleveninches

God gave lucifer and michael (and hence, elaine) powers that equalled his own. The only others to have power equal to god are the prescence, and genesis.


They're equal to the Presence? Is that why they (Lucifer and Michael) needed each other to create the Multiverse? Is that why Lucifer occasionally weakened or hurt by lower beings?

I give more chance to Lucifer, why would God give more power to LT, servant than to his own son. Yes this son rebbeled, but God has nothing to worry about, God is still above anything or anyone.

Why not? LT didn't create himself. God did. Therefore, LT is also God's son.

Why would God give Lucifer more power than someone he expects to protect all his creation? Lucifer isn't the guardian and protect of the Multiverse, why should he have more power than someone who works on behalf of God to protect all creation?

Originally posted by Mider
yeah so Lucifer Morningstar is not from Marvel Universe so how does LT win again? oh and for your information Lucifer Morningstar can exist outside of realitiy Lt loses this fight FINALLY SOMEONE KICKS HIS ASS but then again who cant.

Yeah! F*ck LT!

LT is below lucifer in power in every way, living tribunal only has enough power to destroy one universe at a time, he can not create a universe. lucifer can create universes as he pleases and has slightly more than half of the power needed to actually create an entire multiverse. tribunal has nowhere near that much power. plus tribunal was destroyed once when thanos destroyed the entire multivrese with the heart of the universe but when lucifer killed micheal, the entire dc multiverse was destroyed and lucifer, who stood at ground zero of the demiurgic explosion, didnt so much as get a tan. lucifer can also create the other endless as he sees fit in his universe or multiverse from scratch, so now tell me, who is stronger?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
LT is below lucifer in power in every way, living tribunal only has enough power to destroy one universe at a time, he can not create a universe...tribunal has nowhere near that much power.Do you have proof of any of that?

That's sooo different and you know it.

its not different at all, infact i forgot to mention that marvel has only 1 multiverse but DC has more than one, n lucifer was 50% responsible for creatin both, n lets not forget that the marvel MULTIVERSE was never destroyed exept for that one time with the heart of the universe, n in that the tribunal died, so when the DC multiverse was destroyed, howcome lucifer did not even get a tan? he stood right at ground zero of the demiurgic explosion that destroyed the enitre multiverse, ill tell u y, cause hes above the tribinal, and all other endless, abstracts and concepts of nature, even beyond the concept of existance and time{which he can create as he pleases from scratch by the way, sumthin the tribunal can never do} so therefore i see no differencce between the destructions of both ,multiverses.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lets not forget that the marvel MULTIVERSE was never destroyed exept for that one time with the heart of the universe, n in that the tribunal died, so when the DC multiverse was destroyed, howcome lucifer did not even get a tan?Could it be that it wasn't just "boom, multiverse sploded" but Thanos unmade everything because he had the power to do so? I'm sure Thanos with THOTU would have no problem unmaking Lucy and Mike with a power second to no one.

thas just ur OPPINION, the heart of the universe just gives u power over the SINGLE MARVEL MULTIVERSE, it has no power over the beyond realm or over the one above all. lucifre is beyond the multiverse or the endless, hes had more than 50% of a hand in creatin MORE THAN ONE MULTIVERSES, hes also stood at the point where a WHOLE MULTIVERSE WAS DESTROYED and escaped without a tan{THIS is in my oppinion, every bit as equal as the destruction of the marvel multiverse at the hands of thanos with the heart of the universe}, and later he CREATED ANOTHER MULTIVERSE{givin him power over more than one multiverse as opposed to the heart of the universe which had power over just ONE MULTIVERSE}

Uhmm... I thought The Living Tribunal was second to god?
Are you people stating Lucifer is as powerful as god? Because you would have to be god to be over second to god... youd have to be first to god... which is god... or... TOAA...

Im going on another vacation... this forum seems to be... drooping...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
thas just ur OPPINION, the heart of the universe just gives u power over the SINGLE MARVEL MULTIVERSE, it has no power over the beyond realm or over the one above all. With the THOTU you become one with the one above all.

Do any of the people replying actually read (you know, cos they are comics) Lucifer comics? Or is it all bandwagon jumping and assumptions, like the whole Superman Prime bs.

no u dont swanky tuna, cause all u do is destroy, and put down a SINGLE multiverse, u still have no power over the beyond realm{and the one above all is supposed to have power over that too, secondly living tribunal is not as powerful as the beyonders or as powerful as the full potential franklin richards, remember, he can only destroy one universe at a time, not even 2 at a time and certainly not the entire multiverse, his judgement has been escaped before by korvac,

You still don't have any proof.

n i say it again n again that the destruction of the multiverse meant the end for Tribunal but it didnt even affect lucifer who the CREATED another MULTIVERSE, and theoretically, he can create as many MULTIVERSES as he wants with the help from micheal or elaine, meaning that he has the power of atleast as many HEARTS OF THE UNIVERSE as the amount of multiverses that he creates. secondly the heart is not seen to have CREATED a multiverse, it just DESTROYED THAT "ONE SINGLE MULTIVERSE" and that was the extent of its power.

um isnt the creation of more than one MULTIVERSE and the fact that lucifer escaped the demiurgic explosion that destroyed an entire multiverse, enough proof for you?

Did Thanos blow up the universe or unmake it?

*escaped COMPLETELY UNHARMED that is

thanos DESTROYED THE MULTIVERSE, not the universe, at such large scales theres no difference between unmaking and destroying, but for perspectives sake, ill tell u that that "DESTRUCTION" or unmaking, whatever it was destroyed every abstract includin infinity, eternity , n death, hey did i mention that it was the only time when THE ALMIGHTY LIVING TRIBUNAL WAS "KILLED" TOO!, so whatever it was, u can judge it by seein its affects on these ultra powerful entities.

Originally posted by Synchro
WOAH!!!! your list is massively exaggerated, Dizzle.

Not my list. It has been used quite a few times on this here forum, and I haven't seen anyone contest it until now... The Marvel ones are a different story, but whatever. I'm pretty sure Never made this one...

When Thanos had the HOTU, he was effectively made GOD. God, being God, can unmake whatever the hell he wants, LT, Lucy, and Michael, all rolled into a ball and multiplied times a billion if he wants to. God unmaking existance cannot be compared to some little explosion. Ok, fine, it was a big (demiurgic, haha, find some original words and stop trying to sound like you made it through high school) but it still can't be compared to God. LT wasn't killed. He was made so that he never existed.

LT has never shown his "full" power. It is infinite. He is a tool of God, his power is not his own power, but God's power. If God want's Lucifer dead, Lucifer dies.

If people actually understand the theory of the demiurgic explosion, it's obvious that Lucifer would survive it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
thanos DESTROYED THE MULTIVERSE, not the universe, at such large scales theres no difference between unmaking and destroying, but for perspectives sake, ill tell u that that "DESTRUCTION" or unmaking, whatever it was destroyed every abstract includin infinity, eternity , n death, hey did i mention that it was the only time when THE ALMIGHTY LIVING TRIBUNAL WAS "KILLED" TOO!, so whatever it was, u can judge it by seein its affects on these ultra powerful entities.

???Killed? He absorbed LT. Thanos would beat Lucifer too. Funny huh, Lucifer can take a Multiverse explosion but is weakened too the point the Basinos were chasing him in his own cosmos no less. Ever seen LT being weakened by lower beings?

As for Lucifer, he needed his bother's help to create the Multiverse. Lucifer created parts of the universe (mainly the light) while Michael created everything else. Lucifer didn't create 50 % of the universes in the multiverse and Michael created the other 50 % of universes. He created half of a universe and Michael the other half, together both made the multiverse.

Lucifer killing his brother means what? His brother was the responsible for half the multiverse. Did you think it wasn't going to explode when a creator of it was destroyed? So it didn't even get a tan. Thanos didn't blow the Multiverse in LT's face. He absorbed LT.

not really, plus ur just tryin to prove things without evidence n dont wanna listen to anything to the contrary. as i said before THOTU does not give u power over the beyond realm , and it just gives u power over 1 MULTIVERSE, n lucifer has created MORE THAN 1 MULTIVERSES. im prettty sure that the one above all cud give lucifer trouble but not THOTU and definately not LT

"LT wasn't killed. He was made so that he never existed"
wat the hell does that mean, made to never exist=destruction

"LT has never shown his "full" power. It is infinite. He is a tool of God, his power is not his own power, but God's power"

right and if he had soooo much power than y did korvac escape his judgment and y cudnt he do a damn thing against the beyonder?

{think over these things before u answer n think up of a compelling argument atleast instead of bein stubborn}

"If God want's Lucifer dead, Lucifer dies"
not really, the DC god cudnt kill lucifer.

and u said it urself if GOD wanted lucifer to die, he dies, by GOD u mean THE ONE ABOVE ALL and not living tribunal, i have no problem with accepting the fact that THE ONE ABOVE ALL could kill lucifer in an instant if he wanted but LT, THOTU are not equal to the power of the one above all.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
not really, plus ur just tryin to prove things without evidence n dont wanna listen to anything to the contrary. as i said before THOTU does not give u power over the beyond realm , and it just gives u power over 1 MULTIVERSE, n lucifer has created MORE THAN 1 MULTIVERSES. im prettty sure that the one above all cud give lucifer trouble but not THOTU and definately not LT

"LT wasn't killed. He was made so that he never existed"
wat the hell does that mean, made to never exist=destruction

"LT has never shown his "full" power. It is infinite. He is a tool of God, his power is not his own power, but God's power"

right and if he had soooo much power than y did korvac escape his judgment and y cudnt he do a damn thing against the beyonder?

{think over these things before u answer n think up of a compelling argument atleast instead of bein stubborn}

"If God want's Lucifer dead, Lucifer dies"
not really, the DC god cudnt kill lucifer.

and u said it urself if GOD wanted lucifer to die, he dies, by GOD u mean THE ONE ABOVE ALL and not living tribunal, i have no problem with accepting the fact that THE ONE ABOVE ALL could kill lucifer in an instant if he wanted but LT, THOTU are not equal to the power of the one above all.

The Heart Of The Universe. Notice it's the Heart of The Universe, not the Multiverse? And yet it destroyed the Multiverse? Is the name missing leading? Yes. Does it only have power over the Multiverse? Where does it say that?

HOTU = God's power

Lucifer actually DID die. But he just told 'death' that she had no claim on him, and he got brought back to life by elaine

(I honestly don't know if there's a point arguing with a guy who seems to be putting Lucifer both above and below God in the same post...)

BUT ANYWAYS

So when, say a nuclear bomb, kills someone and completely obliterates tham, does that mean that they have never existed? No, of course not. Living Tribunal, along with the entire Marvel multiverse, was wiped from time itself. Everything was brought to the point before creation.

Living Tribunal cannot destroy things that God does not deem "worthy" of being destroyed. If it isn't an issue of cosmic balance, it is below LT.

And once again, you just said, in the same post, that DC God cannot kill Lucifer, but Marvel God can... Wow. (your apparent shaky literateness doesn't help your argument either, btw.)

what i meant to say by that comparison is that u really shudnt just say that just because LT is second to god means that he can kill lucifer because hes also second to god, theres a difference between the power of similar beings in marvel and dc. in dc, god is not all that powerful, and is not powerful anough to kill lucifer, but the marvel GOD{TOAA} most certainly DOES have the power to kill lucifer, however LT does NOT have the power to kill lucifer JUST BECAUSE HE IS SECOND TO GOD, GET IT!

and again ur not backin up ur argument with enough proof or evidence, its just UR OPPINION onhow things SHUD WORK OUT FOR U

So Lucifer is second to DCGod that can't destroy him and Living Tribunal is second to MGod that can destroy Lucifer? That leaves quite a window of possibility don't you think?

Course I already did provide a list putting a being that is much more comparable to, but not stronger than LT, (full powered Spectre) a few spots above Lucifer. Spectre, even at his maximum potential, is arguably weaker than LT because he needs to actually fight to get his job done and he requires a human host, where LT is simply an unbiased entity. Yet he's still above Lucifer at full power... LT>/=Spectre>Lucifer.

have u lost it Dizzle? it is understood that spaectre is BELOW lucifer

once when god seemingly vanished, spectre came to ask lucifer who was sunbathing. lucifer told him to stop blockin the sun's rays, n what do u think spectre did, he obediently steped outof the way. another time lucifer was mivin the moon when spectre came to ask y, lucifer told him to shut up and stay out of his busines..........which he obediently did, spectre is not on par with LT and definately not on par with lucifer or micheal.

lol. has any1 forgotten the beating spectre got from parallex?

again i ask, can LT make his own multiverse?

Originally posted by Beyonder
Next to GOD? Guess what? So is LT.

No, LT isnt next to God, he is next to the Marvel God and Lucifer/Michael are next to the DC God. You forgot that I still never agree with TOAA/Presence being with one.

Originally posted by Beyonder Yes, as lackeys created by the Presence to bring forth the Multiverse. And Lucifer needed his brother to create the entire Multiverse. And age does NOT equal power. So what if there created before the Multiverse? Does that prove that there going to be more powerful than someone came later into the Multiverse? Furthermore, can you prove that LT was created after the Multiverse was created?

No I dont have that many Marvel comic books to prove that LT was created after the Multiverse. But, as I posted in another thread, marveldirectory.com stated that the Living Tribunal existed AS LONG AS the Universe, which obviously means that he didnt exist before it, unless YOU can give me references that say otherwise.

Heck, now that I remember it, thats not even my point. Even if LT was created before the multiverse, the problem is not him but his power given by TOAA. TOAA gave him power OVER the Multiverse, not beyond it. You didnt see him obliterating the Beyonder, when he became a threat to the entire multiverse, did you???

Lucifer/Michael = Lackeys
LT = Lackey

Originally posted by Beyonder Destruction and Chaos are below LT. Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion/Choas/Order are all below the Infinity Gautlet. All of them including the IG is below LT. Fenris is still a planetary threat. Ragnorak happens to the Norse Gods. Not any other pantheon. Eternity is above such pantheons. LT is above Eternity.

Ive said this before, Im gonna say this again. Your understimating Fenris. And No. Fenris is a UNIVERSAL threat, read Lucifer #54. And again, because of that you cant expect a f*****d up Lucifer to avoid being conrolled. Your overestimating Lucy(which is an irony).

Originally posted by Beyonder And guess what? Lucifer has been weakened or hurt from beings existing in the Multiverse.

If Lucifer is so powerful, why is he constantly having to deal with beings lower in the totem pole than him? The fact that he's can be weakened or hurt says alot about his vulnerability to LT. As for LT only operating in the Multiverse and Lucifer exist before or outside, it isn't much of an argument since beings lower in power than LT who also exist in the Multiverse can and have effected Lucifer.

And tell me, who are this beings who have hurt Lucifer. I only know of Fenris and the Japanese Gods. And No. not the Basanos because Basanos was helped by Susano-O-No-Mikoto, a Japanese Storm God. If it was only the Basanos, the Basanos would have been the one who's dead, because Lucifer has already beaten him before, so is Susano-O.

The Japanese Gods have brought him to the brink of death, but guess what? He still beat the ENTIRE Japanese pantheon(Mind you that he beat them in his mortal, powerless form). As for Fenris, look above.

Now lets look at LT:

1. Wasnt able to do s**t against Korvac, despite not being injured and stuff. Instead, he locked him up.

2. Didnt do s**t at all against the Beyonder, even when he threatened the entire multiverse.

3. Wasnt able to anticipate Thanos getting the HOTU.

Originally posted by Dizzle
Not my list. It has been used quite a few times on this here forum, and I haven't seen anyone contest it until now... The Marvel ones are a different story, but whatever. I'm pretty sure Never made this one...

And that string of uncontested greatness, will be broken today. And I still say you prove it. And just a suggestion, next time, create your own list, stop relying on somebody else's.

And y'all can say whatever you want about the effect of the Demiurgic Explosion not being greater than Thanos' HOTU's effect. But the bottomline is, standing at ground zero of the explosion without getting a scratch is an astounding feat, and I have YET to see LT do a feat comparable to that.

Of course, as Ive said before, LT fans are welcome to point me out on a feat that can rival Lucifer's, and we'll discuss it.

ahhh finally sum1 that has a little sense

lol SYNCHRO its already proven that LT CANT do such a feat, becuase the only thing that mimicked the survival of the demiurgic explosion was the death of the mrvel multiverse by THOTU, n LT died in that, i know its not sumthin LT fans wanna admit.

actually LT was here before the Marvel Universe, remember a thing called dc/marvel cross over???? and also The DC/Marvel Brothers was re-conned as being below LT/Spectre, also i do believe a full powered Spectre is above LT or at least as powerful as him, he went after great beast and was holding his own for awhile but eventually did lose(he did not die anything protected by God won't die) note* The Spectre is the Wrath of God, LT is NOT the Wrath of God, they are both different. the Spectre is suppose to go around ANYWHERE HE WANTS and punish beings that deserve punished. LT is the Guardian of the Marvel Multiverse only and stays in the Marvel Multiverse (unless TOAA wants him to go somewhere else). also The Spectre does NOT need a human Host, the reason he has to be with a host is because when he was not, back when the Romans killed Jesus he was going to destroy the WHOLE world for killing Gods son, God then sent Michael down and he made the Spectre join with a human host so that he would have some kind of human compassion, sorta like Living Tribunal has 3 faces and all of the faces have to agree before any action is taken by the LT. the main reason LT lost i believe is because Thanos had some of Gods power with The Heart, however Lucifer was created from God himself and was half of Gods greatest creation next to Michael, if God created The Heart and God created Lucifer and has said NOBODY matches Lucifer or Michael not even with the Heart (which was created by God himself as well) would anyone win against Lucifer or Michael, Lucifer and Michael was the 1s that made Creation, something no one else has the power to do except The Presence., also Lucifer has punked out Spectre at least 2 times why would he do something like that knowing that Spectre at anytime could become Full Powered??? LUCIFER KNOWS he can win against a full powered Spectre, a full powered spectre would be at LT power level. Lucifer wins....................

What about the DC/Marvel crossover?

Originally posted by Beyonder


HOTU = God's power

I think HOTU=God power in terms or under condititon that he can do wahterver he wants, I think Thanos in HOTU would destroy Lucifer, I see no problem in that, but still God is also above The Heart Of The Universe and can (God) remove it from existence whenever he wants, for God it deosn't really matter, is it agiant Lucifer, or againt LT or HOTU, he can all move them out of existence.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
what i meant to say by that comparison is that u really shudnt just say that just because LT is second to god means that he can kill lucifer because hes also second to god, theres a difference between the power of similar beings in marvel and dc. in dc, god is not all that powerful, and is not powerful anough to kill lucifer, but the marvel GOD{TOAA} most certainly DOES have the power to kill lucifer, however LT does NOT have the power to kill lucifer JUST BECAUSE HE IS SECOND TO GOD, GET IT!

and again ur not backin up ur argument with enough proof or evidence, its just UR OPPINION onhow things SHUD WORK OUT FOR U

He leonheartmm, DC God=The Presenec=TOAA=Marvel God in power=trully Almighty and =he created Lucifer, I think he shoudl have no probelm destroying Lucifer, it's really sick you are comparing Lucifer to God, to his creator (not powerful enough to destroy him, but powerful enough to create being with such powers as Lucifer has), Lucifer powers come from fraction of God almightiness. Everyone can be destroyed, absolutely everyone, except God. Michael and Lucifer can't die by any means, beacuse they are supreme in DC, but there is one there is above them= God, so Lucifer and Michael can also be destroyed for good. Only God is forever and can make everyone dissaper form existnce. The Mulitverse Lucifer created, well God couldd also remove that Multivers in instant, if he wanted to.

The DC God could if he wanted kill Lucifer anytime he wanted, The Presence word is LAW. no one can argue with him without losing, they WILL LOSE. he created Michael and Lucifer if they are that powerful, The Presence must be so much more on another level then both of them, even if they had all of the Angels and everyone in DC/Vergito/Marvel and The Endless together to fight him he would still win very easy.

Originally posted by kevdude
The DC God could if he wanted kill Lucifer anytime he wanted, The Presence word is LAW. no one can argue with him without losing, they WILL LOSE. he created Michael and Lucifer if they are that powerful, The Presence must be so much more on another level then both of them, even if they had all of the Angels and everyone in DC/Vergito/Marvel and The Endless together to fight him he would still win very easy.

Excatly, the one with HOTU, LT, Lucifer, Michael, The Endless, Eternity, Spectre, in other word whole Marvel Universe and DC Universe, their battle against God would equal their destruction with ease. You cannot go up against God, that is the final word, no matter what you have or with limitles preparation, he will made you look like nothing.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lol SYNCHRO its already proven that LT CANT do such a feat, becuase the only thing that mimicked the survival of the demiurgic explosion was the death of the mrvel multiverse by THOTU, n LT died in that, i know its not sumthin LT fans wanna admit. The difference was already explained multiple times. Thanos unmade everything. He wiped the entire slate clean.

It's like if a bowling alley burned down but the metal vent on the top survived the fire. That metal vent would be Lucifer. What Thanos did was erase the entire alley out of exsistance.

actually all the arguments here are pretty pathetic really,
first off, the TRUE DC GOD is not GOD, its THE PRESENCE, therefore god does not have enough power to kill lucifer, end of story, he can also not destroy any of the multiverses lucifer builds{eg hell, or the new multiverse currently under lucifer}, lucifer has defeated god even without his powers just by his wit many times. lucifer can play with spectre, full power or not, like a ****in pussy. he is above living tribunal in every way possible, think about it, LT guards a SINGLE multiverse, LUCIFER creates multiverses as he pleases{with slightly less than 50% help from micheal}, he rules them as he pleases, he isnt relyant on them fro sustainance, n im not gonna repeat all the damn proof i gave again n again just cause people will start givin baseless arguments here.


and as far as the destruction of existnace goes with the HOTU, guess what ERASING ALL REALITY = DESTROYING ALL REALITY{these 2 different phrases wud say sumthin different in the physical world but not when whole damn multiverses are involved, THE END RESULT IS THE SAME} its just like sayin that DESTROYING GOD is not EQUAL to ERASING GOD swanky tuna, n thas just stupid, the fact of the matter is that the whole multiverse was destroyed in both this scenario and the demiurgic explosion, and from the way i saw it in the comics, a huge glowing INFERNO absorbed LT eternity and infinity n destroyed them, on the other hand lucifer didnt even get his hair ruffled while standing at ground zero of the end of a multiverse, he didnt even resist the power, meaning that he didnt even need to use his own power for protection, n thas that.

Scale doesn't matter, if the root of the powers destroying/erasing said multiverses are completely different in nature. Silver Surfer would never lose to Hulk. Hulk is physical power, Surfer is cosmic power. Surfer drains Hulk's power and the fight is over. The explosion was a physical power, Thanos w/ HOTU was not. Therefore the two cannot be compared. The problem with putting LT in fights in general is that he doesn't fight, he judges things and punishes them accordingly. Lucifer has to fight, however little effort it takes him to beat things.

Spectre can't go full power at will, he needs God behind him for that. Explain to me a time that the Presence sent Spectre specifically to destroy Lucifer and gave Spectre his maximum potential of power. Never happened. Spectre's power level is controlled by the Presence, as I'm pretty sure LT's is by TOAA.

well if we all want to get down to it the Lucifer comic book isn't part of DC its not even part of Vertigo its a comic book and universe set all in its own, so therefore anything that happens in lucifer should not really effect DC/Vergito universe.. and the Presence = God(Yahweh) does have the power to do whatever he wants... when has it ever been shown The Presence could not destroy Lucifer???? and how u are saying it The Presence is not God so God must be above The Presence....

u people are soo confusing. first off the demiurgic explosion was NOT JUST A PHYSICAL BOMB GOING OFF something like that can not destroy all of existance{just like the bnigbang was never really a bang}, it was just like the seeming inferno which destroyed thw hole marvel multiverse, ur argument on this is completely wrong.

secondly there is a dude in DC named GOD, he is NOT the presence{which is above GOD}, he has 2 sons{in a sense of the word} micheal and lucifer, and the spectar is the wrath of GOD not the presence, the presence is far more powerful than either god or lucifer or micheal or spectre. so u see, spectre's powers come from GOD, NOT the PRESENCE. the DC "GOD" has been killed before, the PRESENCE has NEVER been destroyed{or killed}, understand now?

now the presence easily has enough power to destroy lucifer but GOD does not have that kind of power, hes been beaten many times by various schemes of lucifer morningstar.

and for the last time, LIVING TRIBUNAL has the responsibilty of keeping balance in the SINGLE MARVEL MULTIVERSE, the extent of power that he has shown is the destruction of A FINITE NUMBER OF UNIVERSES, he has no power over the multiverse and does not have enough power to destroy the multiverse{this is simple logic because the very meaning of his existance is to keep the multiverse balanced}. it doesnt matter if he was given this responsibilty by TOAA, he still has limitations. and things happen in a much more greater scale in DC than they do in MARVEL{not that thas a good thing but its still a fact}, meaning that beings in DC who are not just a few steps below THE ULTIMATE POWER "CAN" be more powerful than beings in the marvel universe who R ONLY A FEW STEPS BELOW THE ULTIMATE POWER. the reason being that the power levels of both realities{marvel and dc} are not exactly similar.{just like the power level of the marvel universe and the street fighter universe are NOT the same}

ok WHEN has the DC God ever been killed????? and dont tell me he was killed in Preacher cause preacher is not part of anything in DC. pls tell me again how The Presence and God relate to eachother???? because in DC The Presence = God.

SAINT OF KILLERS "KILLED" THE DC GOD ONCE, swamp thing came close to killing him. secondly god once left the loop of eternity n just left the mutliverse n we have seen that GOD is actually not a perfect being, he is infact corrupted in some sense.

no no no, GOD is just one SMALL face of THE PRESENCE. the PRESENCE consists of virtually EVERYTHING good or bad, abstract or direct, cosmic or average. the only thing thats not part of it is THE GREAT BEAST.

I know when I said "DCGod" I meant the top of the grapevine. The one second to none. Not this dude you're bringing up named "God" that really isn't god.

so, by "god" you mean "god" not "god" right?

uh right, anyways swanky tuna, next time just for clarity's sake use the real name, when u mean god write GOD, when u mean the presence write PRESENCE, anyways lucifer is a son of GOD not the presence,{only thing is, this fake god is still way above the tribunal.

This has to be the most long winded and at the same time, empty, thread I've read.

I can't believe that people are arguing degrees of supreme and can't see that it's a paradox. There is nothing higher than supreme. There's no "Your power may be Infinity, but my power is Infinity plus 1, so I'm more powerful!"

The Supreme Being is the Supreme Being. Period.

Marvel calls there's TOAA.

DC calls there's The Presence.

They are the supreme; omnipotent; nothing is greater; they have no equals.

Behind TOAA is LT, then behind LT comes everything else save a being wielding the power of TOAA, THOTU.

In DC, Behind The Presence you have beings like the Great Beast, The Endless, etc. And you have Michael and Lucifer.

LT's premise is that he has jurisdiction over anything below God/God's Power.

Lucifer's Premise is that he's the first creation, but he's not God.

At best, Lucifer and LT are equals. If not, LT would be the superior of the two.

If the Presence decided to start EVERYTHING over from a clean slate Lucifer would be gone, just as LT was when when Thanos ended EVERYTHING in Marvel.

The ability to create alternate universes or Multiverses is immaterial. Franklin Richards can create alternate universes with his powers.

It's an ability.

Some beings can alter reality or create alternate realities.

Surviving the 'demiurgic' explosion is immaterial. Galan who later became Galactus did that.

Lucifer is under "God's Power" (not supreme).

Tribunal has jurisdiction over everything under "God's Power" (not supreme).

Logically, it's either a stalemate or LT wins due to the premises of the two respective characters.

Now I won't say anything more on this topic.

Commence the insults and argumentx.

oh my god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 u r unbelieveable, cud u actually READ ALL MY PREVIOUS POSTS. the demiurgic explosion was the DEATH OF A "MULTIVERSE", what galan survived was merely the REBIRTH of a UNIVERSE{not a multiverse} and THE TRIBUNAL "DIED" WHEN THE MARVEL MULTIVERSE WAS DESTROYED BY THOTU.
LUCIFER IS "NOT" under god, he is under THE PRESENCE.
TRIBUNAL has no power over ALL of god's world, hes just there to protect balance of the multiverse{just 1 multiverse}, he can destroy universes{not multiverses} at best. lucifer can actually CREATE A MULTIVERSE{hes created more than 1}. tribunal has NO power over the beyond realm and has no power over TRUE BEYONDERS.
and as far as the argument about franklin beeing able to create universes goes, wel id just like to say that FRANKLIN RICHARDS is one of the most powerful beings in the marvel world, he is actually ON PAR WITH BEINGS LIKE "LUCIFER" AND "MICHEAL"

lol that riled him up didnt it

ok again do not bring in Saint of Killers he is NOT PART OF DC/VERTIGO Continuity. Swamp thing did almost kill God, but in the end didn't. also i was wondering where The Word fits into all of this??? is the Word, God??? The Word is a Biblical term also used to describe God's manifestation in the physical world. It's also called the Logos. that would sorta mean The Word = God does it or not? also after The Presence created The Word the first Archangel, he created The First of the Fallen, the First is SATAN, after a argument The Presence cast him into hell, is the First = the Great Beast??? the Great Beast has been said to be the REAL SATAN as well. they BOTH have the same sorta history but have never been confirmed they are the same, they was both the First being to be in a hell of its own making.....

Originally posted by leonheartmm
uh right, anyways swanky tuna, next time just for clarity's sake use the real name, when u mean god write GOD, when u mean the presence write PRESENCE, anyways lucifer is a son of GOD not the presence,{only thing is, this fake god is still way above the tribunal. So LT is second to only The One Above All and Lucifer is tied for third?

Isn't Lucifer bad?

Originally posted by kevdude
well if we all want to get down to it the Lucifer comic book isn't part of DC its not even part of Vertigo its a comic book and universe set all in its own, so therefore anything that happens in lucifer should not really effect DC/Vergito universe.. and the Presence = God(Yahweh) does have the power to do whatever he wants... when has it ever been shown The Presence could not destroy Lucifer???? and how u are saying it The Presence is not God so God must be above The Presence....

Actually, Mike Carey(the Author of Lucifer) said in an article before, that the DC Universe and Vertigo Universe are actually the same(e.g Lucifer and Michael appearing in DC and other DC heroes appearing in Vertigo releases). Its just that there are some aspect that are different. Partly because the writers also wanted Vertigo to have some aspects that are unique and can only be found in it.

I think that would explain why the First of the Fallen never appeared in any Vertigo releases. The First of the Fallen was probably a character/aspect that only existed in DC and not in Vertigo. The writers probably agreed that the first and only angel(in Vertigo) that rebelled against God is Lucifer.

Ill try to find that article and post it in here. Although that was somewhat a year ago. So I cant guarantee it.

Also I think that would also explain about all this confusion about God is not Presence, etc. If thats not the case, then I suggest to lionheartmm to give us references to his claims.

Originally posted by illadelph12


This has to be the most long winded and at the same time, empty, thread I've read.

I can't believe that people are arguing degrees of supreme and can't see that it's a paradox. There is nothing higher than supreme. There's no "Your power may be Infinity, but my power is Infinity plus 1, so I'm more powerful!"

The Supreme Being is the Supreme Being. Period.

Marvel calls there's TOAA.

DC calls there's The Presence.

They are the supreme; omnipotent; nothing is greater; they have no equals.

Behind TOAA is LT, then behind LT comes everything else save a being wielding the power of TOAA, THOTU.

In DC, Behind The Presence you have beings like the Great Beast, The Endless, etc. And you have Michael and Lucifer.

LT's premise is that he has jurisdiction over anything below God/God's Power.

Lucifer's Premise is that he's the first creation, but he's not God.

At best, Lucifer and LT are equals. If not, LT would be the superior of the two.

If the Presence decided to start EVERYTHING over from a clean slate Lucifer would be gone, just as LT was when when Thanos ended EVERYTHING in Marvel.

The ability to create alternate universes or Multiverses is immaterial. Franklin Richards can create alternate universes with his powers.

It's an ability.

Some beings can alter reality or create alternate realities.

Surviving the 'demiurgic' explosion is immaterial. Galan who later became Galactus did that.

Lucifer is under "God's Power" (not supreme).

Tribunal has jurisdiction over everything under "God's Power" (not supreme).

Logically, it's either a stalemate or LT wins due to the premises of the two respective characters.

Now I won't say anything more on this topic.

Commence the insults and argumentx.

Im not gonna even try to argue with someone who surely wont reply back. Especially when his reasons were already addressed in the previous pages.

Beyonder channeling Synchro:

The First of the Fallen is not a Archangel not even a Angel, The First is something that is ripped out of God to be His confidant and conscience. the First of the Fallen is in Vertigo, was shown in Hellblazer. u dont need to find it ill find The First of the Fallens bio.
http://www.insanerantings.com/hell/characters/foy/first.html
go their it clearly states The First was here before before Lucifer and Michael. but not before The Word...............

Originally posted by kevdude
The First of the Fallen is not a Archangel not even a Angel, The First is something that is ripped out of God to be His confidant and conscience. the First of the Fallen is in Vertigo, was shown in Hellblazer. u dont need to find it ill find The First of the Fallens bio.
http://www.insanerantings.com/hell/characters/foy/first.html
go their it clearly states The First was here before before Lucifer and Michael. but not before The Word...............

The First of the Fallen was outwitted by John Constantine?!?!?

Isn't the First also known as the Great Evil Beast?

Originally posted by Beyonder
Beyonder channeling Synchro:

Huh?!?!?

Originally posted by kevdude
The First of the Fallen is not a Archangel not even a Angel, The First is something that is ripped out of God to be His confidant and conscience. the First of the Fallen is in Vertigo, was shown in Hellblazer. u dont need to find it ill find The First of the Fallens bio.
http://www.insanerantings.com/hell/characters/foy/first.html
go their it clearly states The First was here before before Lucifer and Michael. but not before The Word...............

My bad, I stand corrected.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Still looking for the Mike Carey article............