Iron Fist vs. Sabretooth

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Onslaught2005
Who prevails?

marvelprince
I say that Iron Fist wins this one. He has beat Sabretooth before, granted that was when Sabretooth was a "C" class villian and wasn't all amped up. Still with Iron Fist able to amp up all of his abilities to near superhuman levels, plus his healing with his chi, I see him comin out of this 6 times outta 10

Etrigan
Iron Fist would trash Sabretooth.

guy222
Danny

BruceSkywalker
Daniel Rand'Kai

Soljer
Guy is correct.

Faceman
Soljer is correct.

Soljer
Faceman is correct.

Ha! I just divided by zero.

jinzin
I'm still undecided...

snoopdogg
I'd go with Iron Fist.

CaptainStoic
didn't they battle already?

jinzin
yes... and Sabretooth killed Iron Fist.. shifty

snoopdogg
Originally posted by jinzin
yes... and Sabretooth killed Iron Fist.. shifty I didn't know that. What issue?

Battlehammer
he was joking lol

snoopdogg
I thought he was gonna say it was Exiles.

psycho gundam
sabretooth tears the shit out of him

Battlehammer
Originally posted by snoopdogg
I thought he was gonna say it was Exiles.
maybe lol

Faceman
Originally posted by jinzin
yes... and Sabretooth killed Iron Fist.. shifty

Actually a blinded Ironfist defeated Sabertooth......That was before pre upgrade on both characters......
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=401926&pagenumber=4

jinzin
Originally posted by Faceman
Actually a blinded Ironfist defeated Sabertooth......That was before pre upgrade on both characters......
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=401926&pagenumber=4

Nu-uh.. that was just a bad dream... Sabretooth killed Danny and then stole his identity..

Faceman
Originally posted by jinzin
Nu-uh.. that was just a bad dream... Sabretooth killed Danny and then stole his identity..

confused




























laughing

guy222
still danny

cdtm
Bumped, because Creed is coming to Iron Fist. And judging by the series so far, it will be awesome.

Sin I AM
Probably Fist unless Creed went back bad

Smurph
Bump

cdtm
This already happened. Danny beat his ass.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
This already happened. Danny beat his ass.

Back when Creed wasn't even written as a mutant, lol.

Current Creed walks away with a smile after getting smashed by the likes of Cho Hulk or Sinister's Superman copies.

He's stronger and faster than Fist and can even ignore having a hole punched through him (happened on panel - again, sick creep was smiling wide as f*ck).

Supermutant
Did they have a fight recently?

https://i.imgur.com/GpK7huBl.jpg

StiltmanFTW
Afaik, they fought once there - it was unresolved.

Both got winded, but neither was done. Danny asked Creed for help and they stopped, lol.

Supermutant
what a let down, I wanted an epic fight. glad I skipped on it then.

Smurph
I think Sabes rips Danny apart. And maybe Danny fights through that/heals/scrapes out a win... but it's at least as likely that Sabretooth tanks his attacks and rends him.

Smurph
https://i.postimg.cc/Y2YgKJBk/no-hands.png

beatboks
Originally posted by marvelprince
I say that Iron Fist wins this one. He has beat Sabretooth before, granted that was when Sabretooth was a "C" class villian and wasn't all amped up. Still with Iron Fist able to amp up all of his abilities to near superhuman levels, plus his healing with his chi, I see him comin out of this 6 times outta 10

Yeah but that defeat of Sabre-toothed was while Danny was snow blinded. If he could beat him when he couldn't even see him he'll beat him at higher levels with his sight.

beatboks
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Back when Creed wasn't even written as a mutant, lol.

Current Creed walks away with a smile after getting smashed by the likes of Cho Hulk or Sinister's Superman copies.

He's stronger and faster than Fist and can even ignore having a hole punched through him (happened on panel - again, sick creep was smiling wide as f*ck).

And yet Danny beat him when blind and too weak to draw onnthe fist without leaving him vastly weakened

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-bc4b8c6a36d381d81c66a0030e21b531-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9e364ad4b3dff04aa9001df7220198a3-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0cc7911950809c266b2f3ec752bbb80e-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-312e0e7eaef5d79f2c3210b5333d0dfe-lq

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Back when Creed wasn't even written as a mutant, lol.

Current Creed walks away with a smile after getting smashed by the likes of Cho Hulk or Sinister's Superman copies.

He's stronger and faster than Fist and can even ignore having a hole punched through him (happened on panel - again, sick creep was smiling wide as f*ck).

And in their most recent fight Sabretooth actually was trashing Danny around in the bar, and right before that iron Fist arrogantly claimed "I have beaten you all the times, Creed".

And in 1993 (IIRC, where Sabretooth already was a mutant with healing factor) comics book Danny has defeated Sabretooth only via plot device (Danny has kicked him in the fuse box, which exploded and trapped Creed under a debris, and right before that Sabretooth got drop on him from the dark and pwning Iron Fist).

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by beatboks
And yet Danny beat him when blind and too weak to draw onnthe fist without leaving him vastly weakened

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-bc4b8c6a36d381d81c66a0030e21b531-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9e364ad4b3dff04aa9001df7220198a3-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0cc7911950809c266b2f3ec752bbb80e-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-312e0e7eaef5d79f2c3210b5333d0dfe-lq

To be fair, it was Sabretooth's first appearance ever and he wasn't even described as a mutant there.

He even became Wolverine and X-Men's for only since 1986, when Creed himself has appeared in 1977 and was mostly a foe of iron Fist and on ocassions - Daredevil, Back Cat and Spider-Man.

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by Smurph
https://i.postimg.cc/Y2YgKJBk/no-hands.png

Was it an illusion or it's alternative universe? But looks like a most plausible outcome for this versus.

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by Smurph
I think Sabes rips Danny apart. And maybe Danny fights through that/heals/scrapes out a win... but it's at least as likely that Sabretooth tanks his attacks and rends him.

Sounds plausible. Danny claimed that Sabretooth is as fast as him and Sabretooth, despite looking bulky and tall muscular stud, is very fast and probably scales to Logan.

Pressure points would only temporately work, because healing factor.

Sabretooth maybe isn't very techical martial artist (though he is better fighter than most people gives him a credit), but his ferocitty, dirty tactics and ruthlessness plus the fact he constantly bully Wolverine just for fun proves he can be veery dangerous even without much skills.

And if Sabretooth is with adamantium skeleton and claws (which is very inconsistent, because writers doesn't show how he ocassionally gets an adamantium skeleton and claws and them loses it somehow), Sabretooth can literally shred Danny in a bloody mess before he could really use his chi for gaining the upperhand.

Smurph
Originally posted by Alex_Ferrana
Was it an illusion or it's alternative universe? But looks like a most plausible outcome for this versus. 100% canon. Danny Rand is now the Iron Fistless.

jk, dream state

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by Smurph
100% canon. Danny Rand is now the Iron Fistless.

jk, dream state

Yeah, I checked it out. Still, badass moment.

ODG
Do threads get merged anymore?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=549887&pagenumber=1 Originally posted by ODG
A weaker, non-upgraded, and blinded Iron Fist already beat Sabretooth.

Danny wins. Anyway, not even sure Danny has the Iron Fist anymore. I think someone else has it.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by beatboks
And yet Danny beat him when blind and too weak to draw onnthe fist without leaving him vastly weakened

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-bc4b8c6a36d381d81c66a0030e21b531-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9e364ad4b3dff04aa9001df7220198a3-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0cc7911950809c266b2f3ec752bbb80e-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-312e0e7eaef5d79f2c3210b5333d0dfe-lq

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Back when Creed wasn't even written as a mutant, lol.

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Indeed. Sabretooth before he was written as a mutant and rival of Wolverine was a jobber. Though not completely feat less, but still, making him as a partner of Constrictor clearly shows he wasn't really a major threat.

abhilegend
He was hospitalised by Spidey ripping off his webs LMFAO

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by abhilegend
He was hospitalised by Spidey ripping off his webs LMFAO Originally posted by abhilegend
He was hospitalised by Spidey ripping off his webs LMFAO

And ran away from Daredevil, despite the fact DD admits that his best shots do bassically nothing to Sabretooth.

Sabretooth is usually used by writers as a jobber in order to nake a character who defeated him look awesome (like it was with Silver Sable, for example).

ODG
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Back when Creed wasn't even written as a mutant, lol. Wolverithmetics still alive, I see.

Smurph
Originally posted by Smurph
https://i.postimg.cc/Y2YgKJBk/no-hands.png look how happy creed is

StiltmanFTW
Reminds me of his grin here:

https://i.ibb.co/SRHKKvn/main-qimg-04cbca5f720f74bb38103accd7d6ad44-lq.jpg

DarkSaint85
That last panel with his bent wrist is hilarious. Comic -Fu indeed.

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Reminds me of his grin here:

https://i.ibb.co/SRHKKvn/main-qimg-04cbca5f720f74bb38103accd7d6ad44-lq.jpg

That jaw punch. And Creed isn't even flinched, when Iron Fist hurt his hand. Not to mention, it's non-adamantium Sabretooth.

Good durability feat for Creed.

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That last panel with his bent wrist is hilarious. Comic -Fu indeed.

It's more like a Kung Fu or Wing Chun stance, I perhaps. Still, looks hilarious.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Alex_Ferrana
That jaw punch. And Creed isn't even flinched, when Iron Fist hurt his hand. Not to mention, it's non-adamantium Sabretooth.

Good durability feat for Creed.

Creed is durable as f*ck.

Tanked IF in their most recent fight, too.

Most of his appearances are adamantiumless; Greg Pak having a brain fart and forgetting about it for an issue or two doesn't change it.

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Creed is durable as f*ck.

Tanked IF in their most recent fight, too.

Most of his appearances are adamantiumless; Greg Pak having a brain fart and forgetting about it for an issue or two doesn't change it.

Indeed. I remember how once enraged Nightcrawler turned Creed into a living pin-cushion by stabbing him with all of his sword, foils and other melee weapon. Only to see him smiling and ready to rip Kurt in shreds. Kurt later just retreated.

Yes, Creed get a good showing against Danny Rand in their most recent fight. Trashed Iron Fist across the bar and took his best shots. Fight was inconclusive, but at least Creed wasn't a jobber on that ocassion.

I know. Sabretooth and adamantium are extremely incompetent thing.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Alex_Ferrana
Indeed. I remember how once enraged Nightcrawler turned Creed into a living pin-cushion by stabbing him with all of his sword, foils and other melee weapon. Only to see him smiling and ready to rip Kurt in shreds. Kurt later just retreated.

More specifically, Kurt was spared, as Creed was still "inverted" back then.

It was undone during the Azazel arc.

Originally posted by Alex_Ferrana
Yes, Creed get a good showing against Danny Rand in their most recent fight. Trashed Iron Fist across the bar and took his best shots. Fight was inconclusive, but at least Creed wasn't a jobber on that ocassion.

Being essentially powerless was one thing, the other "little detail" is that Creed got a few significant upgrades.

Originally posted by Alex_Ferrana
I know. Sabretooth and adamantium are extremely incompetent thing.

There was a time when Marvel and DC hired editors who loved comics and provided readers with on-panel continuity notes often.

Now? Quantity over quality, deadlines forcing writers/artists to write stories worse than fan fiction and produce art worse than fan art.

That being said, I wouldn't mind Pak giving Creed the metal back, if he at least decided to stick with his decision in his own damn book laughing out loud

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
More specifically, Kurt was spared, as Creed was still "inverted" back then.

It was undone during the Azazel arc.



Being essentially powerless was one thing, the other "little detail" is that Creed got a few significant upgrades.



There was a time when Marvel and DC hired editors who loved comics and provided readers with on-panel continuity notes often.

Now? Quantity over quality, deadlines forcing writers/artists to write stories worse than fan fiction and produce art worse than fan art.

That being said, I wouldn't mind Pak giving Creed the metal back, if he at least decided to stick with his decision in his own damn book laughing out loud

Inverted?

Yeah, that's true. Comparing 1977-1985 Creed with his relatively modern incarnations is incorrect (a lot of people love to use moments, where Creed wasn't even described as a mutant and didn't had healing factor to show how he's weak and pathetic, and it's annoying, honestly).

And yes. No wonder why modern writing of DC and Marvel is similar with fanfics. And heck, even fanfics sometimes can be written better than official canon stories. Especially if the writer of that fanfic actually knowx the characters and their personalities/capabilities. And fan arts also can be way better than official drwaing of the characters in comics.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Alex_Ferrana
Inverted?

AXIS. Good guys turned bad, bad guys turned good there.

The spell wasn't reversed for everyone. Stark and Creed stuck with their inverted moral compass.

That's why Stark relapsed back to alcoholism and made cash on Extremis.

For Creed, it meant trying to be heroic --- which he sucked at, frankly, but at least he stopped being the inhuman monster for a while.

That was also why he teamed-up with Rand and why he felt he was owing Constrictor something. Non-inverted Tooth wouldn't give two shits about the man's legacy or his son.

Alex_Ferrana
Ah, got it. Thanks.

I remember it. But later, however, Creed turned back to his feral nature. And honestly, being a monster is way better for him, he was meant to me like that.

Okay, now it explains something.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Alex_Ferrana
But later, however, Creed turned back to his feral nature.

As I said, yes.

It took four ****ing years... but yes:

https://i.ibb.co/c17FMpn/RCO021-1582382430.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/jDZV16y/rc22.png

Alex_Ferrana
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
As I said, yes.

It took four ****ing years... but yes:

https://i.ibb.co/c17FMpn/RCO021-1582382430.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/jDZV16y/rc22.png

plus, Creed is a sociopath and psychopath, so no wonder why he's so savage.

ODG
Originally posted by Alex_Ferrana
Yeah, that's true. Comparing 1977-1985 Creed with his relatively modern incarnations is incorrect (a lot of people love to use moments, where Creed wasn't even described as a mutant and didn't had healing factor to show how he's weak and pathetic, and it's annoying, honestly). Wolverithmetics just as infectious as ever, to boot... the longer thread I linked earlier discusses this... "questionable" notion:

https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=549887&pagenumber=1

Maybe merge these threads.

StiltmanFTW
Your hate boner never gets old vin

Maybe you need some Wolverithmetics in your life; it always brings you back here, after all... not to mention that you've finally learned how to save pics in your browser. We haven't forgotten what "D" in your username stands for wink

But I heard you rather willingly betrayed us for those CBR *****, eh? stick out tongue

You believe Danny wins, that's fine, but it's a simple fact that Danny never quite managed to replicate the original feat against Creed; beating him with his bare hands while snowblind... and that little fact just might have something to do with Creed not being written as a character with superpowers back then, don't ya think?

Srank seems gone for good, Capt It Up ragequit KMC after losing a battlezone to some new guy, but I'd love to re-unite you with Jinzin; fasten your seat belts, we're gonna travel back in time to 2005 laughing out loud

ODG
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Your hate boner never gets old vin

Maybe you need some Wolverithmetics in your life; it always brings you back here, after all... not to mention that you've finally learned how to save pics in your browser. We haven't forgotten what "D" in your username stands for wink

But I heard you rather willingly betrayed us for those CBR *****, eh? stick out tongue

You believe Danny wins, that's fine, but it's a simple fact that Danny never quite managed to replicate the original feat against Creed; beating him with his bare hands while snowblind... and that little fact just might have something to do with Creed not being written as a character with superpowers back then, don't ya think?

Srank seems gone for good, Capt It Up ragequit KMC after losing a battlezone to some new guy, but I'd love to re-unite you with Jinzin; fasten your seat belts, we're gonna travel back in time to 2005 laughing out loud Danny would probably lose because I don't think he even has the Iron Fist anymore. I haven't read the latest issues though, so maybe I'm wrong.

I don't know why you think an exact replication of the fight should ever be expected. There was a specific setting, a specific handicap, and a first meeting. I would expect a powered Danny to not be blind again and for Creed to know who exactly he's fighting against. So the non-existence of a replication of that fight is an unextraordinary statement of fact.

But, y'know, a weakened Danny nearly clowned a few X-Men around that time. And that ain't his best feat either, just an analogous one. Neither was that Creed's worst feat either. Originally posted by ODG
Enough with this "Sabretooth/Wolverine basically weren't even mutants until 1990" myth. Danny while weakened and blind, beat him. Get over it. You didn't like =/= it didn't happen.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by ODG
Danny would probably lose because I don't think he even has the Iron Fist anymore. I haven't read the latest issues though, so maybe I'm wrong.

It all seems to happen to fast, I'm not really up-to-date either. We're all old geezers.

You're probably referring to the time when Okoye earned the power of Iron Fist, yes?

Originally posted by ODG
I don't know why you think an exact replication of the fight should ever be expected. There was a specific setting, a specific handicap, and a first meeting. I would expect a powered Danny to not be blind again and for Creed to know who exactly he's fighting against. So the non-existence of a replication of that fight is an unextraordinary statement of fact.

He never came even close to performing as well against Sabretooth.

While the original fight had him winning despite the seemingly impossible odds.

We've had Danny hurting his fist on Creed's chin and needing plot device to win... or even failing to knock him out with his Iron Fist in their most recent tussle... which makes perfect sense, seeing how Creed is no longer just a big bloke with claws.

Sorry, this isn't 1977 anymore.

Originally posted by ODG
But, y'know, a weakened Danny nearly clowned a few X-Men around that time. And that ain't his best feat either, just an analogous one. Neither was that Creed's worst feat either.

Just an issue after that, yes.

And then his book got cancelled vin Coincidence?

ODG
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He never came even close to performing as well against Sabretooth.

While the original fight had him winning despite the seemingly impossible odds.

We've had Danny hurting his fist on Creed's chin and needing plot device to win... or even failing to knock him out with his Iron Fist in their most recent tussle... which makes perfect sense, seeing how Creed is no longer just a big bloke with claws.

Sorry, this isn't 1977 anymore. I'm not arguing that 1977 is 2022.

I will argue, however, against any notion that "Sabretooth/Wolverine basically weren't even mutants until 1990".

StiltmanFTW
Which is fine, as nobody here has ever tried to argue that.

Wolverine was first strongly hinted to have some sort of healing ability in 1978 --- which was officially confirmed in 1981.

For Creed, it was 1987.

Sabretooth's fight with Carol is an outlier, if we compare it to... well, any other of his showings during that period. And it still happened a couple of years after Danny beat his ass, keep that in mind.

ODG
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Which is fine, as nobody here has ever tried to argue that. https://c.tenor.com/PvHI9dkbSnAAAAAC/niggaplease-weezy.gif

StiltmanFTW
80s =/= 90s wink

Off-topic, you're still a thorbag, right?

Have you seen Love & Thunder? vin

ODG
^ Your equivocation over Sabretooth's fight with Ms. Marvel reveals enough for me. You've clearly recalled what I've pointed out in the other thread. This conversation has run it's course.

NO. Don't spoil it for me.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by ODG
^ Your equivocation over Sabretooth's fight with Ms. Marvel reveals enough for me. You've clearly recalled what I've pointed out in the other thread. This conversation has run it's course.

Hey, you quoted yourself, so I decided to address it.

Originally posted by ODG
NO. Don't spoil it for me.

No worries, I don't intentionally spoil films to others.

Just see it before someone else does; spoiler tags are a rarity on KMC.

ODG
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Hey, you quoted yourself, so I decided to address it. Your previous post strikes me as IDLI, IDH.

But if you want to constructively debate the point, I'll oblige. Why is Sabretooth's fight against Ms. Marvel an outlier compared to other showings in that period?

StyleTime
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

You believe Danny wins, that's fine, but it's a simple fact that Danny never quite managed to replicate the original feat against Creed; beating him with his bare hands while snowblind... and that little fact just might have something to do with Creed not being written as a character with superpowers back then, don't ya think?

Agreed. thumb up

It feels borderline trolling to hold showings from that era against Creed. He's just clearly at a different level than his original appearances, when he was just some vaguely savage dude in tune with his senses.

Back then, Creed was hospitalized for an extended period because of, essentially, some gashes on his face. It's just not the same character in terms of combat potency, and subsequent encounters with Danny/Victor support that.
Originally posted by ODG

I don't know why you think an exact replication of the fight should ever be expected. There was a specific setting, a specific handicap, and a first meeting. I would expect a powered Danny to not be blind again and for Creed to know who exactly he's fighting against. So the non-existence of a replication of that fight is an unextraordinary statement of fact.


I think the disagreement is more over the reason for it being an un-extraordinary statement of fact.

I'm trying not to misinterpret you here. Do you think Creed did not develop into a more powerful character since then, especially in regards to his healing factor?

ODG
Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm trying not to misinterpret you here. Do you think Creed did not develop into a more powerful character since then, especially in regards to his healing factor? Clearly, Danny developed into a more powerful character since then also. Barring the current storyline that few appear to even recognize as I'm the first one who brought it up. So I will request that you dispel the notion that I am ignoring Creed's subsequent history and everything beyond Creed's first fight with Danny.

I am arguing against dismissing Creed's first fight against Danny as if it had no probative value. That first fight does have probative value.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by ODG
Your previous post strikes me as IDLI, IDH.

Funny. I could say the same about your whole crusade against everything Wolverine-related vin

I can see how much you've missed it wink

Originally posted by ODG
But if you want to constructively debate the point, I'll oblige. Why is Sabretooth's fight against Ms. Marvel an outlier compared to other showings in that period?

Because his power level in that book seemed higher than... anything else he's done back then.

The I-beam feat alone puts him in a different strength class than what we were shown before that comic, not to mention actually brawling with Carol for a while.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Agreed. thumb up

It feels borderline trolling to hold showings from that era against Creed. He's just clearly at a different level than his original appearances, when he was just some vaguely savage dude in tune with his senses.

But you can't say you're surprised.

It's far more likely for Srank to rise up from his grave than ODG changing his ways.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Back then, Creed was hospitalized for an extended period because he couldn't heal gashes on his face. It's just not the same character in terms of combat potency, and subsequent encounters with Danny/Victor support that.

Correct:

https://i.ibb.co/5jrsddW/1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/SwbLv1C/2.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/yn0PQXV/3.jpg

StyleTime
Originally posted by ODG
Clearly, Danny developed into a more powerful character since then also. Barring the current storyline that few appear to even recognize as I'm the first one who brought it up. So I will request that you dispel the notion that I am ignoring Creed's subsequent history and everything beyond Creed's first fight with Danny.

I am arguing against dismissing Creed's first fight against Danny as if it had no probative value. That first fight does have probative value.
Of course, but no one denies Danny got more powerful. As for the second part, well, that's why I asked.

It doesn't have particularly significant value though. It shows Danny is more skilled, which is still true. But that issue wasn't really in dispute.

ODG
^ Bruh, I won't accuse you of moving the goalposts. But the issue is not whether either Danny or Sabretooth are more formidable than what they were portrayed in their first fight. The issue is the notion that you can dismiss that first fight as basically never happening because "Sabretooth/Wolverine basically weren't even mutants until 1990". Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Because his power level in that book seemed higher than... anything else he's done back then. So Sabretooth had a showing way back then that was comparable to what he subsequently showed...

Therefore, Sabretooth's portrayals back then should be ignored because they're not comparable to what he subsequently showed...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/8c/af/f38caf4c3b1072ad08b13b9908c3c8a9.gif

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by ODG
The issue is the notion that you can dismiss that first fight as basically never happening because "Sabretooth/Wolverine basically weren't even mutants until 1990".

1981 and 1987, not the nineties.

At least try to get that part right stick out tongue

Originally posted by ODG
Therefore, Sabretooth's portrayals back then should be ignored because they're not comparable to what he subsequently showed...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/8c/af/f38caf4c3b1072ad08b13b9908c3c8a9.gif

One showing. Outlier for that era, as you know it.

Or perhaps you can think of any other showings from that time matching that performance? Creed sneaking up on Rogue and beating the crap out of her happened in 1987, fyi.

You should also keep in mind Ms Marvel #24 didn't actually get published... the final product got released in 1992 as "Marvel Super-Heroes".

PS. Church of Rand no longer exists on KMC, either wink

Smurph
Church of Rand found murdered by Okoye

StiltmanFTW
No, no.

It was murdered years before Okoye... the menace known as cdtm did it.

StyleTime
Originally posted by ODG
^ Bruh, I won't accuse you of moving the goalposts. But the issue is not whether either Danny or Sabretooth are more formidable than what they were portrayed in their first fight. The issue is the notion that you can dismiss that first fight as basically never happening because "Sabretooth/Wolverine basically weren't even mutants until 1990".

I didn't move the goalposts though.

I still think it's borderline trolling to hold the fight against Creed. Something can have minor value, and still not be worth using overall. Danny is more skilled than Sabes. In this sense, the showing has "value" for depicting this fact. But, we see that in plenty of other showings. We don't lose anything from throwing this encounter out, and the rest of the fight can't adequately account for their current forms.

It's perfectly fine to disagree, but I wasn't being inconsistent there. It's canon, but I just don't see a worthwhile use of this showing in any honest discussion about a fight between them.

StiltmanFTW
It is canon and it definitely happened.

Nobody is going full "I don't like it, it didn't happen", as ODG loves to repeat over 9000 times in every CBvF thread.

But was that incarnation of Creed even half as formidable as the one from 1987?

Well... no.

Having his powerset fully established and getting a few upgrades in later years matters in this discussion --- just as Danny growing more powerful (Book of Iron Fist and so on) matters as well.

And ffs, it's not their only fight.

ODG
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
One showing. Outlier for that era, as you know it.

Or perhaps you can think of any other showings from that time matching that performance? Creed sneaking up on Rogue and beating the crap out of her happened in 1987, fyi.

You should also keep in mind Ms Marvel #24 didn't actually get published... the final product got released in 1992 as "Marvel Super-Heroes". The fact that you think Sabretooth's physical abilities were only first explicitly elucidated when he fought Rogue belies how uninformed you are.

You suggest that it is more logical to act like Sabretooth's first fight shouldn't matter. We should also ignore the vast majority of his next several chronological appearances during the 1970s and 1980s where his character is elaborated/defined and he fights foes like Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel, X-Factor, X-Men, and Wolverine. Y'know, appearances that show Creed operated on a level that is comparable to what he subsequently showed.

But none of that should matter, because Wolverithmetics, yo... Originally posted by StyleTime
I didn't move the goalposts though.

I still think it's borderline trolling to hold the fight against Creed. Something can have minor value, and still not be worth using overall. Danny is more skilled than Sabes. In this sense, the showing has "value" for depicting this fact. But, we see that in plenty of other showings. We don't lose anything from throwing this encounter out, and the rest of the fight can't adequately account for their current forms. Sure, let's throw out one of the two 1v1 fights that the two characters in this 1v1 thread have ever had. Makes sense, because Wolverithmetics, yo... ...

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by ODG
The fact that you think Sabretooth's physical abilities were only first explicitly elucidated when he fought Rogue belies how uninformed you are.

You suggest that it is more logical to act like Sabretooth's first fight shouldn't matter. We should also ignore the vast majority of his next several chronological appearances during the 1970s and 1980s where his character is elaborated/defined and he fights foes like Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel, X-Factor, X-Men, and Wolverine. Y'know, appearances that show Creed operated on a level that is comparable to what he subsequently showed.

But none of that should matter, because Wolverithmetics, yo... Sure, let's throw out one of the two 1v1 fights that the two characters in this 1v1 thread have ever had. Makes sense, because Wolverithmetics, yo... ...

Tsk tsk. Drinking is doing you no good.

Never go full OneDumbG0.

ODG
^ Translation: "I will do more research into Sabretooth's actual appearances during this ill-defined time period instead of talking out of my a$$."

I did ask for a constructive discussion.

https://i.gifer.com/5W9.gif

Smurph

StyleTime
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW

But you can't say you're surprised.

It's far more likely for Srank to rise up from his grave than ODG changing his ways.

I was hoping for that long hiatus effect to take over. I've noticed members tend to soften their stances a bit after a long time away, and allow for a bit a nuance.

ODG seems to be in full Debate Lord mode though, so I doubt we're going to get a good faith discussion here.

I do still miss his wars with srank though, simply for the insults. Shit was hilarious.
Originally posted by ODG

But none of that should matter, because Wolverithmetics, yo... Sure, let's throw out one of the two 1v1 fights that the two characters in this 1v1 thread have ever had. Makes sense, because Wolverithmetics, yo... ...
Well, yeah. They've undergone changes that I feel render the fight mostly useless.

We don't use Pre-Crisis showings for similar reasons even though they're, technically, canon for some characters. You seem to have made up your mind here though, so have at it bro. thumb up

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by ODG
^ Translation: "I will do more research into Sabretooth's actual appearances during this ill-defined time period instead of talking out of my a$$."

I did ask for a constructive discussion.

https://i.gifer.com/5W9.gif

Take a sip of something a little stronger, next time you visit us smile

You're a shadow of your former self. CBR did that to you?

StiltmanFTW

ODG
Originally posted by StyleTime
I was hoping for that long hiatus effect to take over. I've noticed members tend to soften their stances a bit after a long time away, and allow for a bit a nuance.

ODG seems to be in full Debate Lord mode though, so I doubt we're going to get a good faith discussion here.

I do still miss his wars with srank though, simply for the insults. Shit was hilarious.

Well, yeah. They've undergone changes that I feel render the fight mostly useless.

We don't use Pre-Crisis showings for similar reasons even though they're, technically, canon for some characters. You seem to have made up your mind here though, so have at it bro. thumb up You're suggesting that I won't engage in good faith discussions.

When I am arguing against the dismissal out of hand of 1 of the 2 only fights between these characters in this thread. Which I am not even arguing is determinative... just that it shouldn't be completely dismissed out of hand due to the notion that Sabretooth at the time wasn't portrayed anywhere near what he was subsequently portrayed as...

... even though I am literally citing the vast majority of his subsequent chronological appearances during the 70s and 80s.

Sure. Whatever. Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Take a sip of something a little stronger, next time you visit us smile

You're a shadow of your former self. CBR did that to you? https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdvancedPastelAntipodesgreenparakeet-size_restricted.gif

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by ODG
You're suggesting that I won't engage in good faith discussions.

Maybe because I have a good reason to assume so? mmm

Originally posted by ODG
When I am arguing against the dismissal out of hand of 1 of the 2 only fights between these characters in this thread.

Three fights.

Tsk tsk. You don't like numbers very much.

Originally posted by ODG
Which I am not even arguing is determinative... just that it shouldn't be completely dismissed out of hand due to the notion that Sabretooth at the time wasn't portrayed anywhere near what he was subsequently portrayed as...

... even though I am literally citing the vast majority of his subsequent chronological appearances during the 70s and 80s.

Sure. Whatever.

As I said, it's canon and it happened.

And it's a simple fact that he was essentially powerless when he was Danny's villain.

You're the only one trying to deny it.

ODG
I was right the first time: Originally posted by ODG
This conversation has run it's course. Wolverithmetics, yo...

StiltmanFTW
Talking to yourself doesn't make you seem any smarter.

Style dismissed your posts, as well. Anyone disagreeing with your poor stance is using Wolverithmetics? smile

StyleTime
Originally posted by ODG
You're suggesting that I won't engage in good faith discussions.

When I am arguing against the dismissal out of hand of 1 of the 2 only fights between these characters in this thread. Which I am not even arguing is determinative... just that it shouldn't be completely dismissed out of hand due to the notion that Sabretooth at the time wasn't portrayed anywhere near what he was subsequently portrayed as...

... even though I am literally citing the vast majority of his subsequent chronological appearances during the 70s and 80s.

Sure. Whatever.
I mean, you posted this as your stance just a few pages earlier.

Originally posted by ODG
A weaker, non-upgraded, and blinded Iron Fist already beat Sabretooth.

Danny wins.

Maybe you were joking, but it's not like we came up with this out of the blue broski.

ODG
Originally posted by StyleTime
I mean, you posted this as your stance just a few pages earlier.

Maybe you were joking, but it's not like we came up with this out of the blue broski. You might want to re-read this thread. Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Talking to yourself doesn't make you seem any smarter.

Style dismissed your posts, as well. Anyone disagreeing with your poor stance is using Wolverithmetics? smile Should I take this straw-man seriously? That's an honest question.

StiltmanFTW
Hilarious, coming from the king of strawmanning laughing out loud

ODG
https://media.giphy.com/media/R459x856IfF6w/giphy.gif

Andf here I thought I was just being playfully trolled. Not so much now... /shrug

StiltmanFTW
You f*cked up the dates, didn't even get the amount of Creed/Fist fights right --- and I'm the one trolling? smile

Keep living in your fan fiction. Nobody is going to side with you on this one.

ODG
^ It appears that no constructive discussion will continue between you and I on this topic. You can blame it on me. That's fine.

StiltmanFTW
You're repeating the same thing even after being corrected, so yeah, rest assured I blame this one on you.

Just remember you're the one who couldn't save image files in 2022 smile

Next thing you might find out is that KMC is no longer a paradise for Wolverine haters eek! Or thorbags wink

ODG
^ Bruh... I wasn't trying to make you upset.

https://y.yarn.co/0166fe90-f644-49cb-b2af-c68ab295073d_text.gif

StiltmanFTW
You didn't. This place is so dead, I'm sure glad to have your ass back thumb up

Even though we're not likely to agree on anything Thor- or Wolverine-related in this century.

But... this forum could really use a Hulk fan in the age of anti-Hulk posts mmm You haven't seen those yet... you're in for a treat. Same with L&T.

ODG
^ We don't have to agree on anything. Seriously, who have I gotten to agree with me during my past debates?

Believe me or not, I'm more interested in constructive discussion now. I don't care about trolling the trolls anymore with their own troll tactics. And I don't even consider you a troll...

... I mean, I don't even remember who you are at all. mmm

StiltmanFTW
https://i.ibb.co/Srkdfhg/b6075f351e09bf409b0ae0d4a18bc591f0bd1f20.gif

ODG
https://c.tenor.com/ZBKhoorQFOEAAAAd/scarlet-witch-you-will.gif

jinzin
4 fights, 6 encounters.

1. Snowblinded Rand but against a Creed without skills or a healing factor.
2. Rand wins in a dark room playing possum.
3. Rand runs into Sabretooth in a hallway/room and gets launched into a book case.
4. Sabretooth and Rand have a fight in a sewer tunnel where Rand is getting the worse of the encounter until *enter plot device*.
5. Rand tags Creed with a chi amped punch (/Iron Fist?) and Creed brushes it off.
6. Rand runs up on Axis Creed and they start to bar brawl. Creed isn't clawing away but Rand *is* using chi amped Iron Fist attacks, and there's no real defined winner here; Both go on to fight multiple opponents in the same evening but Sabretooth demonstrates a significant healing feat while defeating a mystic martial arts opponent.

Of 4 fights Rand looked better twice and looked worse twice. The two times he looked better are older/outdated material, and, before Creed had an established history, power set, or skill set as opposed to Rand who was fully developed as a character with an established power set.
The two fights Rand didn't look as great are more recent, of which the most recent featured a Sabretooth who was instinctually handicapped on top of nerfing his own best offensive features and still demonstrated an elevated degree of damage soak without issue.
In between the older and newer fights, there was featured a random quick encounter where Rand could not stop Creed from escape or defend himself from being launched into a book case and another encounter where a handicapped Creed brushed off a chi amped strike immediately following being electrocuted by Constrictor and also zapped by a neuro inhibitor collar immediately before that... Again, demonstrating elevated damage soak far beyond that of his first appearance.

Sabretooth has been more defined in power set and as a character. Sabretooth has a healing factor now, and he did not in the comics where Iron Fist defeated him. Sabretooth has considerable super strength now, and he did not in the comics where Iron Fist defeated him. Sabretooth has significant fighting skill accounted into his character now (often gauged in the same tier as Rand himself going by various Marvel guides and grids), and he did not when Iron Fist defeated him. Sabretooth has been written has a character that often fights with brains and tactics now, and he was not when Iron Fist defeated him. The more current Sabretooth is often depicted as having an Adamantium skeleton, and he was not when Iron Fist defeated him...

In the last two encounters, non chi amped strikes have proven to be ineffectual on Sabretooth.
In the last three encounters, chi amped strikes have proven to be rather impotent on Sabretooth.
In the last 4 encounters, Rand did not defeat or put down Sabretooth.

Why would the events of "Iron Fist" #14 have any significant weight on the outcome of a hypothetical encounter between the two developed characters now, despite the fact that more recent encounters don't support this hypothesis? What about "Iron fist" #14 is of value compared to a modern version of the Sabretooth character when even Creed's claw strikes have more effect now than what was demonstrated in that comic?

DarkSaint85
Jinzin AND Konton? ODG? My heart is a-flutter!

Smurph
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1345e2d00347c232e564ac65644e7dc7-lq

... ermm

ODG
Originally posted by jinzin
tl;dr Originally posted by ODG
Wolverithmetics still alive, I see.

StiltmanFTW
Better to focus on literally the first appearance of Sabretooth from 45 years ago and ignore everything else, eh? vin

ODG
^ Did I ever say it was better to do so and ignore everything else?

jinzin
"Wolverithmetics still alive, I see."

What does this have to do with Wolverine?...
Just like what "Iron Fist" #14 has to do with this thread; Nothing.

"Did I ever say it was better to do so and ignore everything else?"

No, you said: ""Wolverithmetics still alive, I see.""

And stated this when the factual and fundamental variance to Sabretooth's power-set between his first appearanc(es) and his later incarnations was mentioned, seemingly demonstrating that you *feel* like there was some nefarious purpose in bringing up the contextual differences everyone can see plain as day, therefore making it also seem like you arbitrarily dismissed said context because of that feeling perhaps. *shrug*

Then you said...

"That first fight does have probative value."

In your opinion? Great. Of what???

ODG
Originally posted by jinzin
"Wolverithmetics still alive, I see."

What does this have to do with Wolverine?... https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Wolverithmetics.jpg

... to make sure that feats of Wolverine's supporting gallery can be twisted/excused for the purposes of reverse-projecting onto Wolverine himself and make him unbeatable.

P.S. This shit is hilarious: https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/One-Does-Not-Simply

jinzin
So more trolling.
You don't actually have an answer to the simple questions asked? You'd rather make this about Wolverine, for some reason, and, a lot. In other words, Stilt saw you comin' by a country mile. Got it.

jinzin
"My heart is a-flutter!"

Lol, hey Darksaint.

ODG
Originally posted by jinzin
So more trolling.
You don't actually have an answer to the simple questions asked? You'd rather make this about Wolverine, for some reason, and, a lot. In other words, Stilt saw you comin' by a country mile. Got it. Well, I was trying to be funny. You're not amused, I see. But what more do you want me to say that hasn't already been debated here:
https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=549887&pagenumber=1

I am simply saying this: Originally posted by ODG
I'm not arguing that 1977 is 2022.

I will argue, however, against any notion that "Sabretooth/Wolverine basically weren't even mutants until 1990". Not much more to it.

jinzin
I'm more amused by the fact that no one brought Wolverine into this bumped up thread in context to the matchup or for measurement until *you* when you invoked the X-Men as an analogue.
So you bringing up Wolvermath, good. But...
Other people bring up context, bad, because Wolvermath.
lol okay.

"Not much more to it."

Which Stilt then already addressed: "Which is fine, as nobody here has ever tried to argue that."

ODG
Originally posted by ODG
https://c.tenor.com/PvHI9dkbSnAAAAAC/niggaplease-weezy.gif

jinzin
Please what?...
... Noting that Sabretooth didn't have a healing factor in his first appearance when he didn't... =/= Arguing he wasn't a mutant til the 90's; It's not difficult.

There is nothing abstract or theoretical about it either. There *is* "physical, concrete evidence" to cite and demonstrate.
Sabretooth, in his chronological publications, didn't have a healing factor even mentioned about until "X-Factor" 10 published in Nov of 86... One month after the Black Cat battle where he clearly didn't have a healing factor, but also 9 years since his first appearance, and 6 years since he'd last lost to Iron Fist...
How is that inconsequential when we see he can instantly recover from optic blasts to the back of the head in November of 86 and multiple stab wounds in Jan of 87 but a broken rib or two takes him out in 81? Make that make sense.

jinzin
Btw (for other members that might care), I've run into a comics fan who made the argument that the healing factorless Sabretooth was potentially a Sinister clone as Sinister's Creed clones consistently didn't have properly working healing factors because it was a difficult ability for him to replicate at the time. Headcanon, but an interesting "theory" nonetheless and at least would make sense of the events as they were published.

ODG
Originally posted by jinzin
Please what?...
... Noting that Sabretooth didn't have a healing factor in his first appearance when he didn't... =/= Arguing he wasn't a mutant til the 90's; It's not difficult.

There is nothing abstract or theoretical about it either. There *is* "physical, concrete evidence" to cite and demonstrate.
Sabretooth, in his chronological publications, didn't have a healing factor even mentioned about until "X-Factor" 10 published in Nov of 86... One month after the Black Cat battle where he clearly didn't have a healing factor, but also 9 years since his first appearance, and 6 years since he'd last lost to Iron Fist...
How is that inconsequential when we see he can instantly recover from optic blasts to the back of the head in November of 86 and multiple stab wounds in Jan of 87 but a broken rib or two takes him out in 81? Make that make sense. Definitely not Wolverithmetics:

https://c.tenor.com/88T5rOLOxH8AAAAC/eye-roll-the-office.gif

So long as we ignore the vast majority of his next several chronological appearances during the 1970s and 1980s where his character is elaborated/defined and he fights foes like Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel, X-Factor, X-Men, and Wolverine. Y'know, appearances that show Creed operated on a level that is comparable to what he subsequently showed.

jinzin
"Definitely not Wolverithmetics:"
=/= Literally has zero to do with Wolverine and everything to do with Sabretooth.... I get you think you're being clever or cute or something but It's truly amazing how you can't keep Wolverine's name out of your proverbial mouth for longer than 5 seconds. Enough with the trolling.

"So long as we ignore the vast majority of his next several chronological appearances during the 1970s and 1980s"

There isn't even a "vast" amount of appearances to pull from. It's literally 6 comics that he appears in before he is mentioned as having a healing factor. Sabretooth's "next appearances" after Iron Fist up 'til then are relegated to 4 books, of which 2 explicitly demonstrate that Creed did not have a healing factor and 1 strongly suggests the same.
"During the 1970's and 1980's" *up to* November of 86 are worth ignoring on the basis of lack of healing factor alone, but no one *is* ignoring those appearances, only offering context on why they hold so little weight in a conversation where Sabretooth has another 40 years of history to pull from including retcons, like having a healing factor. (And, we know the healing factor matters to this era of Creed because it was demonstrated that Rogue could one shot a "Mutant Massacre" Sabre-clone to the shock of onlooking X-Men specifically because he didn't have one.)

"where his character is elaborated/defined"

Uh, what? If you define Creed through the 6 books he appears in before being written with a healing factor you would be left to assume he doesn't have one.
You would assume he has zero fighting skill, zero brains for cqc strategy, and maybe *some* training as an assassin as a "student" of Foreigner, so moderate experience and a relatively young age.
You would assume his bones can't cut through metal, and that he'd have somewhat enhanced to superhuman durability (and maybe slightly enhanced strength) but also relatively little damage soak to speak of outside of taking 1 or 2 superhuman strikes before getting dropped.
Oh right, and that he runs around the city with a sack on his head and mittens on his hands, for, some reason. This isn't the defined character of Sabretooth; That is laughable.

The only things that were moderately properly defined about Creed (as he would become established) here was that he has some sort of blood lust, sharp claws, enhanced senses to some degree, and speed... Great, but that still isn't all of him.


"and he fights foes like Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel, X-Factor, X-Men, and Wolverine. "

He fought Luke. Sure. And his fight with Luke is a single outlier of high end performance in terms of durability, and possibly or grappling compared to "the vast majority" of his other 6 appearances, and it still isn't anything to write home about.
Ms. Marvel? No.. His Ms. Marvel appearance wasn't published until the summer of 92, and, in the "Sabretooth Classics" reprinted version of the character chronology, it's among the last of the 4 books printed, not the first, and Claremont didn't touch Sabretooth again until he was working on Uncanny around the 200's 8 or 9 years later.
X-Factor? You mean *after* it was established Creed had a healing factor which no one is taking up issue with?
X-Men and Wolverine? In 86 *after* he was established to have a healing factor which no is taking up issue with... And there you go invoking Wolvermath again. O O
What about this are you not getting?

"Y'know, appearances that show Creed operated on a level that is comparable to what he subsequently showed."

Except, y'know, he didn't.
In the 6 issues leading up to having a healing factor, aside from a potential Luke Cage outlier, what are you talking about?
He "subsequently showed* he had a healing factor... He didn't have one in the Iron Fist fights.
He "subsequently" showed he can rend through metal with his claws and teeth no problem; He couldn't in his 6th appearance.
He "subsequently" demonstrated he actually has fighting skill and over 100 years of experience, but he didn't have any of that going for him in his first 6 appearances.
He "subsequently" showed he can keep coming back from tons of attacks even from class 60+ opponents, internal damage and optic blasts to the back of the head, but in his 4th appearance, broken ribs severely effected him and he couldn't heal shallow cuts between his 5th and 6th appearance... So again... What. Are. You. Taking. About???

You can keep spouting the same thing over and over again; That doesn't mean it has value.

So back to it... Regarding the inclusion of Creed's healing factor, how is that inconsequential when we see he can instantly recover from optic blasts to the back of the head in November of 86 and multiple stab wounds in Jan of 87 but a broken rib or two takes him out in 81? Make that make sense (so far, you've done the opposite of making it make sense, keep trying).

ODG
Originally posted by jinzin
=/= Literally has zero to do with Wolverine and everything to do with Sabretooth.... I get you think you're being clever or cute or something but It's truly amazing how you can't keep Wolverine's name out of your proverbial mouth for longer than 5 seconds. Enough with the trolling. Maybe re-read this thread and see whether it this myth has nothing to do with Wolverine:
https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=549887&pagenumber=1 Originally posted by jinzin
There isn't even a "vast" amount of appearances to pull from. It's literally 6 comics that he appears in before he is mentioned as having a healing factor. Sabretooth's "next appearances" after Iron Fist up 'til then are relegated to 4 books, of which 2 explicitly demonstrate that Creed did not have a healing factor and 1 strongly suggests the same.
"During the 1970's and 1980's" *up to* November of 86 are worth ignoring on the basis of lack of healing factor alone, but no one *is* ignoring those appearances, only offering context on why they hold so little weight in a conversation where Sabretooth has another 40 years of history to pull from including retcons, like having a healing factor. (And, we know the healing factor matters to this era of Creed because it was demonstrated that Rogue could one shot a "Mutant Massacre" Sabre-clone to the shock of onlooking X-Men specifically because he didn't have one.) No yeah, makes sense for someone with no healing factor to fight Misty Knight, Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel toe-to-toe, etc. Originally posted by jinzin
Uh, what? If you define Creed through the 6 books he appears in before being written with a healing factor you would be left to assume he doesn't have one.
You would assume he has zero fighting skill, zero brains for cqc strategy, and maybe *some* training as an assassin as a "student" of Foreigner, so moderate experience and a relatively young age. You're smart enough to know that beginning your argument by assuming your conclusion is no way to constructively discuss this. That's not even Wolverithmetics. That's just you twisting the narrative. Originally posted by jinzin
Ms. Marvel? No.. His Ms. Marvel appearance wasn't published until the summer of 92, and, in the "Sabretooth Classics" reprinted version of the character chronology, it's among the last of the 4 books printed, not the first, and Claremont didn't touch Sabretooth again until he was working on Uncanny around the 200's 8 or 9 years later. Bruh, how do you ignore that the Ms. Marvel fight was originally plotted/drawn and supposed to be published as Ms. Marvel #24 in 1979 if it weren't for cancellation?

jinzin
"Maybe re-read this thread and see whether it this myth has nothing to do with Wolverine:"

Maybe I don't need to re-read another thread. Maybe make your position make sense *here* since here is where you brought it up. Wolverine has nothing to do with the microscope of this discussion. Sabretooth's powerset and when it was and wasn't demonstrated can be discussed without also discussing his mythos in connection to Wolvie... Argue otherwise.

"No yeah, makes sense for someone with no healing factor to fight Misty Knight, Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel toe-to-toe, etc."

Because you say so? No. Plenty of characters without healing factors fight these characters. Sabretooth was fighting and often losing, and being dropped by relatively little in a number of circumstances... He didn't have a healing factor *established* til 86, and he *did* have instances that demonstrated he didn't have one... It isn't really up for debate. We know what happened in the weeks between Spectacular Spidey 116 and 119... Sabretooth didin't heal sh**... So again... What. Are. You. Talking. About? You tell us where you saw Sabretooth with a healing factor before Nov 86.

"You're smart enough to know that beginning your argument by assuming your conclusion is no way to constructively discuss this. That's not even Wolverithmetics. That's just you twisting the narrative."

You're smart enough to know that Sabretooth couldn't be properly defined through his first six appearances and yet made that proposal anyway. Noting the absurdity of that notion isn't twisting a narrative, insisting on said notion to begin with might be. You don't have to assume as much about Sabretooth after having 40 more years of context to draw from as you do attempting to gauge him from the first 6 comics he appeared in. Argue otherwise.

"Bruh, how do you ignore that the Ms. Marvel fight was originally plotted/drawn and supposed to be published as Ms. Marvel #24 in 1979 if it weren't for cancellation?"

No one is ignoring that. Nor are we going to ignore that it *was* in fact cancelled. You want to discuss "subsequent" matters in concerns to the character but the character never demonstrating that particular feat until 92, so instead of being someone who had that fight and *then* went on to get decimated by Black Cat he's someone who got decimated by Felicia *and then* went on to have that fight published. You don't think seeing that fight may have effected how writers "subsequently" viewed the character? I also gave you a direct reference to how the Marvel editorial staff decided to publish Sabretooth's specific chronology in that era with "Sabretooth Classics" and the fight isn't included until the 12th issue. Conversely, how are you ignoring that?

In any case none of this matters anymore as it's now been brought to my intention that the headcanon I mentioned earlier wasn't headcanon after all and that Chris Claremont and Byrne's take on the Sabretooth mythos was going to be that every incarnation of him leading up to "Wolverine" 10 and then his introduction of the Jim Lee costume was a clone anyways, thereby explaining how he'd been so easily defeated in the past. Which Claremont then expanded on in X-Men Forever... So yeah, we can *easily* ignore his low showings in this era and have good reason to do it if we're going by creative intent as you invoke it with Ms. Marvel... Or... Are we going to not do that now because it works against your "narrative"? Enjoy the pickle. : )

jinzin
Btw Smurph, your contributions to the thread have been hilarious. I see you bud.

ODG
Originally posted by jinzin
Maybe I don't need to re-read another thread. Maybe make your position make sense *here* since here is where you brought it up. Wolverine has nothing to do with the microscope of this discussion. Sabretooth's powerset and it was and wasn't demonstrated can be discussed without also discussing his mythos in connection to Wolvie... Argue otherwise. By that same token, maybe I don't need to repeat the same arguments that have been amply discussed in a separate thread with the same exact characters??? Are you really going to pretend that the same exact thread that hasn't yet been merged with this one that contained the same exact discussion, should be regurgitated? Or should I be flippant and insinuate that srankmissingin's ample contributions to that thread are not reflective of your own opinions? Originally posted by jinzin
Because you say so? I'm not the one trying to dismiss Sabretooth's canon from being probative evidence. Don't try to flip the burden of proof. Canonicity is on my side, not your's. Don't get it twisted.
Originally posted by jinzin
You're smart enough to know that Sabretooth couldn't be properly defined through his first six appearances and yet made that proposal anyway. Once again. I'm not the one trying to dismiss his canon appearances. You are. And I've already cited to his subsequent appearances that lend credence to that original fight/performance. Originally posted by jinzin
No one is ignoring that. You literally did try to ignore that. Same author and artist from the original Ms. Marvel 70s run. That comic was plotted/drawn back in 1979. So stop acting like Sabretooth was never portrayed "way back then" as he subsequently was shown to be. It being published later doesn't eliminate its impact on your inane notion that Sabretooth was never portrayed that way back then. He was. Literally, in what was his second appearance by his own creator he was portrayed that way. It completely deconstructs your notion that he was never intended to be portrayed in a way that he was subsequently shown to be. Originally posted by jinzin
In any case none of this matters anymore as it's now been brought to my intention that the headcanon I mentioned earlier wasn't headcanon afterall and that Chris Claremont and Byrne's take on the Sabretooth mythos was going to be that every incarnation of him leading up to "Wolverine" 10 and then his introduction of the Jim Lee costume was a clone anyways, thereby explaining how he'd been so easily defeated in the past. Which Claremont then expanded on in X-Men Forever... So yeah, we can *easily* ignore his low showings in this era and have good reason to do it if we're going by creative intent as you invoke it with Ms. Marvel... Or... Are we going to not do that now because it works against your "narrative"? Enjoy the pickle. : ) N1gga, Tony Stark was originally intended and canonically portrayed to be Howard Stark's biological son. He isn't anymore. That's published, canon and on-panel. End of story. So how does an unpublished, non-canonical, head-canon portrayal lend any credence to your hairbrained theory?

You really trying to hold Claremont's head-canon theory that never made it to the comic page against me while simultaneously dismissing Claremont's 1979-plotted, actually published, canon, on-panel plot where he fought Ms. Marvel toe-to-toe???

Friggin Wolverithmetics, mang.

Smurph
Originally posted by jinzin
Btw Smurph, your contributions to the thread have been hilarious. I see you bud. it's 2022 and you and ODG are arguing wolverithmetics happy

jinzin
Originally posted by ODG
By that same token, maybe I don't need to repeat the same arguments that have been amply discussed in a separate thread with the same exact characters???
You don't need to repeat anything, and you weren't asked to...
"What does this have to do with Wolverine?" was the question you were asked and refused to answer, twice; This question is never broached in that thread and you have yet to answer that question here.

Originally posted by ODG
Are you really going to pretend that the same exact thread that hasn't yet been merged with this one that contained the same exact discussion, should be regurgitated?

Strawman.
... You were asked what Wolverine has to do with my initial post; You have yet to answer that question beyond arbitrarily pointing in some other direction.

Originally posted by ODG
Or should I be flippant and insinuate that srankmissingin's ample contributions to that thread are not reflective of your own opinions?

My initial post contained no opinions... Comprehension ftw...
Now, what does Wolverine have to do with said post?.... Explain.

Originally posted by ODG
I'm not the one trying to dismiss Sabretooth's canon from being probative evidence.
Are you not? That's great... So when Sabretooth's chronological canon starts lending itself to a character with abilities not previously established, demonstrated or mentioned, and, starts demonstrating feats greatly outstripping previous limitations *after* those abilities were established, demonstrated and mentioned, then that ought to weigh in on the likelihood of the probabilities at play no?
That said, you *were* also asked what the value of said "probative evidence" was (See? Not dismissed.)...



Originally posted by ODG
Don't try to flip the burden of proof. Canonicity is on my side, not your's. Don't get it twisted..
Nothing's twisted... You offered: "No yeah, makes sense for someone with no healing factor to fight Misty Knight, Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel toe-to-toe, etc", but... The "proof" contradicts your dismissive position as Sabretooth could not heal shallow cuts between the weeks spanning from Spectacular "Spider-Man" #116" to "Spectacular Spider-Man" #119. The proof *also* demonstrates that internal bleeding from broken ribs was enough to cause this era of Sabretooth to be unable to properly stand and prompted him to go out seeking medical attention from a doctor in "Power Man and Iron Fist" #78 with his next appearance in "Power Man and Iron Fist" #84 stating that he was in "pain and suffering" for "months" indicating the absence of a healing factor (at all) in the same comic where he fought Luke Cage that you cited while thinking it somehow supported your take.
So, you do need to support your position with proof, somehow refuting this evidence of absence or strict limitation and offer where you think/observe Sabretooth in those early appearances looked like he *had* a healing factor worth talking about.
And...
Canonicity? Like when Iron Fist hurt himself hitting Sabretooth and Sabretooth laughed and/or when Iron Fist's "Iron Fist" didn't put Sabretooth away, *after* Sabretooth started being written with a healing factor? Like that kind of canonicity? Or only the kind you're comfortable with?

Originally posted by ODG
Once again. I'm not the one trying to dismiss his canon appearances.
No, only his chronological character portrayal but go on...
And, nor am I, no matter how indignant you become about the matter. *shrug*

Originally posted by ODG
You are.

Wrong. I haven't dismissed canon appearances at all, in fact, I referenced them directly in my initial post... Cite differently.

Originally posted by ODG
And I've already cited to his subsequent appearances that lend credence to that original fight/performance.
You cited some appearances sure, where you were and remain, wrong...
Half of those citations were after Sabretooth was written as having a healing factor, demonstrating you lack a grasp on the point of referencing said healing factor... The other half of which take place before the healing factor is ever even mentioned with all but two of them demonstrating significant limitations specific to a lack of healing factor that haven't been seen since, which isn't in line "to his subsequent appearances" nor do they lend credence to your take as both references to Misty and Luke Cage included context that actively refutes you, demonstrating the sheer absence of a healing factor.

Originally posted by ODG
You literally did try to ignore that.
Wrong.


Originally posted by ODG
Same author and artist from the original Ms. Marvel 70s run. That comic was plotted/drawn back in 1979
What does the artist have to do with anything?
This is getting good... So, *now* Chris Claremont's *intentions* with his plotting are supposed to somehow magically count before they were printed, but alternatively, his intentions with the character of Sabretooth that he co-created, featured in that same plotting, don't matter inside the books of his that *did* get printed? O O Yikes. Pretty hypocritical to say the least.

Originally posted by ODG
So stop acting like Sabretooth was never portrayed "way back then"
I don't have to act like anything. He factually wasn't portrayed that way at that point in anything that was published. The book you are citing factually wasn't published until 1992, and after Ms. Marvel's cancellation, Claremont didn't touch Sabretooth again until "Uncanny X-Men" #212 in December of 86, a month after his artistic collaborator and editor Louise Simonson established the healing factor in print in "X-Factor" #10...
As of 1987, Sabretooth had never fought Ms. Marvel before that. It wasn't printed until 1992.
Are you saying Sabretooth *was* portrayed that way at the time because that book almost existed despite the fact that it was never released (until 1992)??? Because that sounds insane. O O


Originally posted by ODG
as he subsequently was shown to be.
No. He was "subsequently/shown to be" a character with a healing factor. His appearances leading up to that point don't support that he had one; 4 of the 6 of them demonstrate he didn't. How admirably you feel he performed without one established and present is irrelevant.
Besides that... Show one feat that is analogous to the unprinted Ms. Marvel fight before 86. You can't. The same way you can't assume that an unpublished book had any relevance to writers not named Chris Claremont or Simonson between 77 and 86, it didn't. (We don't even know if that book had relevance to them afterwards, all the way up to 1992 as it was never mentioned or referenced directly or indirectly)...


Originally posted by ODG
It being published later doesn't eliminate its impact on your inane notion that Sabretooth was never portrayed that way back then. He was.
My "inane notion that Sabretooth was never portrayed that way back then"? Um no.. You're attacking a strawman again; Gaslighting.
This isn't an argument I'm making here.
Sabretooth was never portrayed with a healing factor until Nov of 1986.
The book you're talking about *not being published* significantly impacts how the character was and *wasn't* portrayed at that time tho. It wasn't published, so he wasn't portrayed "that way" (whatever you think "that way" happens to be) until it *was* published... In 1992... You done trolling yet?


Originally posted by ODG
Literally, in what was his second appearance by his own creator he was portrayed that way.

It "literally" isn't his second appearance. It's in the mid 30's of his appearances "literally." If you're flip flopping back to what it was "intended" to be, well, Claremont also "intended" for that Sabretooth to be a 2nd rate clone anyhow (remember how the government needed to teach him all the phases of unarmed combat?)... Your rhetoric is hypocritical. Simple as that.


Originally posted by ODG
It completely deconstructs your notion that he was never intended to be portrayed in a way that he was subsequently shown to be.
I never said this...
It might, if that was my argument and if that particular book was published before the 80's...
Again you attack a strawman.
I've never once stated Sabretooth was never "intended" to be portrayed one way or another; Cite differently. (This doesn't even make sense. Now you're just tossing word salad against the wall and hoping something sticks.)
Nothing here rests on my personal "notions" as you put them. Sabretooth had 6 appearances before demonstrating he had a healing factor, but an unprinted Ms. Marvel book wasn't one of them. However, Chris Claremont factually "intended" Sabretooth to be portrayed differently than the way he was "subsequently shown to be" up til the Jim Lee costume anyhow which seemingly "completely deconstructs" whatever issue you are presently taking, trying to invoke Claremont's intentions with the Sabretooth character while also somehow ignoring Claremont's intentions with the Sabretooth character. Amazing gymnastics at display here.

jinzin

ODG
Originally posted by jinzin
You don't need to repeat anything, and you weren't asked to...
"What does this have to do with Wolverine?" was the question you were asked and refused to answer, twice; This question is never broached in that thread and you have yet to answer that question here.



Strawman.
... You were asked what Wolverine has to do with my initial post; You have yet to answer that question beyond arbitrarily pointing in some other direction.



My initial post contained no opinions... Comprehension ftw...
Now, what does Wolverine have to do with said post?.... Explain.


Are you not? That's great... So when Sabretooth's chronological canon starts lending itself to a character with abilities not previously established, demonstrated or mentioned, and, starts demonstrating feats greatly outstripping previous limitations *after* those abilities were established, demonstrated and mentioned, then that ought to weigh in on the likelihood of the probabilities at play no?
That said, you *were* also asked what the value of said "probative evidence" was (See? Not dismissed.)...




Nothing's twisted... You offered: "No yeah, makes sense for someone with no healing factor to fight Misty Knight, Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel toe-to-toe, etc", but... The "proof" contradicts your dismissive position as Sabretooth could not heal shallow cuts between the weeks spanning from Spectacular "Spider-Man" #116" to "Spectacular Spider-Man" #119. The proof *also* demonstrates that internal bleeding from broken ribs was enough to cause this era of Sabretooth to be unable to properly stand and prompted him to go out seeking medical attention from a doctor in "Power Man and Iron Fist" #78 with his next appearance in "Power Man and Iron Fist" #84 stating that he was in "pain and suffering" for "months" indicating the absence of a healing factor (at all) in the same comic where he fought Luke Cage that you cited while thinking it somehow supported your take.
So, you do need to support your position with proof, somehow refuting this evidence of absence or strict limitation and offer where you think/observe Sabretooth in those early appearances looked like he *had* a healing factor worth talking about.
And...
Canonicity? Like when Iron Fist hurt himself hitting Sabretooth and Sabretooth laughed and/or when Iron Fist's "Iron Fist" didn't put Sabretooth away, *after* Sabretooth started being written with a healing factor? Like that kind of canonicity? Or only the kind you're comfortable with?


No, only his chronological character portrayal but go on...
And, nor am I, no matter how indignant you become about the matter. *shrug*



Wrong. I haven't dismissed canon appearances at all, in fact, I referenced them directly in my initial post... Cite differently.


You cited some appearances sure, where you were and remain, wrong...
Half of those citations were after Sabretooth was written as having a healing factor, demonstrating you lack a grasp on the point of referencing said healing factor... The other half of which take place before the healing factor is ever even mentioned with all but two of them demonstrating significant limitations specific to a lack of healing factor that haven't been seen since, which isn't in line "to his subsequent appearances" nor do they lend credence to your take as both references to Misty and Luke Cage included context that actively refutes you, demonstrating the sheer absence of a healing factor.


Wrong.



What does the artist have to do with anything?
This is getting good... So, *now* Chris Claremont's *intentions* with his plotting are supposed to somehow magically count before they were printed, but alternatively, his intentions with the character of Sabretooth that he co-created, featured in that same plotting, don't matter inside the books of his that *did* get printed? O O Yikes. Pretty hypocritical to say the least.


I don't have to act like anything. He factually wasn't portrayed that way at that point in anything that was published. The book you are citing factually wasn't published until 1992, and after Ms. Marvel's cancellation, Claremont didn't touch Sabretooth again until "Uncanny X-Men" #212 in December of 86, a month after his artistic collaborator and editor Louise Simonson established the healing factor in print in "X-Factor" #10...
As of 1987, Sabretooth had never fought Ms. Marvel before that. It wasn't printed until 1992.
Are you saying Sabretooth *was* portrayed that way at the time because that book almost existed despite the fact that it was never released (until 1992)??? Because that sounds insane. O O



No. He was "subsequently/shown to be" a character with a healing factor. His appearances leading up to that point don't support that he had one; 4 of the 6 of them demonstrate he didn't. How admirably you feel he performed without one established and present is irrelevant.
Besides that... Show one feat that is analogous to the unprinted Ms. Marvel fight before 86. You can't. The same way you can't assume that an unpublished book had any relevance to writers not named Chris Claremont or Simonson between 77 and 86, it didn't. (We don't even know if that book had relevance to them afterwards, all the way up to 1992 as it was never mentioned or referenced directly or indirectly)...



My "inane notion that Sabretooth was never portrayed that way back then"? Um no.. You're attacking a strawman again; Gaslighting.
This isn't an argument I'm making here.
Sabretooth was never portrayed with a healing factor until Nov of 1986.
The book you're talking about *not being published* significantly impacts how the character was and *wasn't* portrayed at that time tho. It wasn't published, so he wasn't portrayed "that way" (whatever you think "that way" happens to be) until it *was* published... In 1992... You done trolling yet?




It "literally" isn't his second appearance. It's in the mid 30's of his appearances "literally." If you're flip flopping back to what it was "intended" to be, well, Claremont also "intended" for that Sabretooth to be a 2nd rate clone anyhow (remember how the government needed to teach him all the phases of unarmed combat?)... Your rhetoric is hypocritical. Simple as that.



I never said this...
It might, if that was my argument and if that particular book was published before the 80's...
Again you attack a strawman.
I've never once stated Sabretooth was never "intended" to be portrayed one way or another; Cite differently. (This doesn't even make sense. Now you're just tossing word salad against the wall and hoping something sticks.)
Nothing here rests on my personal "notions" as you put them. Sabretooth had 6 appearances before demonstrating he had a healing factor, but an unprinted Ms. Marvel book wasn't one of them. However, Chris Claremont factually "intended" Sabretooth to be portrayed differently than the way he was "subsequently shown to be" up til the Jim Lee costume anyhow which seemingly "completely deconstructs" whatever issue you are presently taking, trying to invoke Claremont's intentions with the Sabretooth character while also somehow ignoring Claremont's intentions with the Sabretooth character. Amazing gymnastics at display here. https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/giphy.gif

ODG

StiltmanFTW
The wall-of-text thing is only fun when you do it, eh? smile

ODG

jinzin
Right...
- You still have not explained what Wolverine has to do with this thread.
- Sabretooth's first 6 appearances are not an analogue for the rest of his career in part because roughly 67% of them featured a Sabretooth who got damaged and was without the ability to heal (i.e. extreme limitation that hasn't been seen since/"subsequently"wink. If you think differently, then show where he healed something.
- The Ms. Marvel fight was printed in 92, so that fight had no impact on comics printed between 77-86 at least; And, it's not clear where you think Sabretooth obviously healed something there anyway.
- If you think Claremont's intention with the Ms. Marvel comic is more important than the fact that the book was cancelled and not printed in 79, then you must also accept Claremont's intention with Sabretooth as he was writing the books that got printed, or, you're invoking a clear double standard citing writer's intent.

StiltmanFTW

ODG
Originally posted by jinzin
Right...
- You still have not explained what Wolverine has to do with this thread.
- Sabretooth's first 6 appearances are not an analogue for the rest of his career in part because roughly 67% of them featured a Sabretooth who got damaged and was without the ability to heal (i.e. extreme limitation that hasn't been seen since/"subsequently"wink. If you think differently, then show where he healed something. Even if you deny it, it's irrelevant.

Straw-man. But not your fault because you haven't closely read this particular thread and I am to blame for referencing past discussions. But if you bear down on this thread, I am arguing against dismissing Creed's first fight against Danny as if it had no probative value. That first fight does have probative value. Originally posted by jinzin
- The Ms. Marvel fight was printed in 92, so that fight had no impact on comics printed between 77-86 at least; And, it's not clear where you think Sabretooth obviously healed something there anyway.
- If you think Claremont's intention with the Ms. Marvel comic is more important than the fact that the book was cancelled and not printed in 79, then you must also accept Claremont's intention with Sabretooth as he was writing the books that got printed, or, you're invoking a clear double standard citing writer's intent. That fight was plotted/drawn in 1979. It's also canon. No healing in that fight? How else does Sabretooth survive third-rail electrocution, wake up from being smacked by an I-beam and Carol mentions that "he seems as fresh as ever."?

I cite a 1979-plotted, Earth-616 canon, chronologically immediate on-panel fight as applying to Sabretooth's early portrayal. You cite a 2009-plotted, Earth-161 head-canon, chronologically years later plot as applying to Sabretooth's early portrayal. But my standard is the one to be mocked? Bruh, Wolverithmetics.

ODG
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Oh, really now?

How come you always find the time for quoting yourself, then?

Autoerotic practice, I guess? Random non-sequitur is random. Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Did you work on that book?

How do you know there were no changes made?

Just because you made no progress in seven years, doesn't mean everything else in the world works in the same manner. No, Claremont and Vosburg did. Back in 1979.

Common sense.

Random non-sequitur is random.

StyleTime

DarkSaint85
And would be interesting considering the constant clones that the Five are doing.

ODG
Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm surprised it hasn't been made official, considering all the wacky retcons the X-books have gotten lately... I'm surprised obscure writer interviews continue to be peddled over using the plain presentation of canon, on-panel feats.

DarkSaint85
Writer interviews are disgusting; Stilt knows my hatred of them.

ODG
https://c.tenor.com/28LPKsfB6mkAAAAC/my-nigga-denzel-washington.gif

jinzin
I don't have to deny or agree with some childishly dismissive name-calling label you have yet to support or prove... You've been asked plenty of times to explain what Wolverine has to do with this thread, and you've either ignored that, or failed.

Strawman? No. You are the one responding to my post where it's literally the point of the reference. lol Thank you for showing us how lost you are here...
And, you've been asked what that value happens to be, you have yet to answer.


"That fight was plotted/drawn in 1979. It's also canon."
*And then not published* until 92...
There's a Justice League vs Avengers comic drawn and plotted, so what? It doesn't mean anything canon or non canon until it's published by the companies. "Ms. Marvel" #24 wasn't published until 92, simple as that. No amount of whining you do about the situation is going to change that fact.
No one is arguing whether it's canon, it's clearly canon, but it is *also* however, effectively a form of retcon as it never existed in Marvel printings until 1992.

"No healing in that fight? How else does Sabretooth survive third-rail electrocution, wake up from being smacked by an I-beam and Carol mentions that "he seems as fresh as ever."?"

Enhanced durability and stamina could be an answer that doesn't necessitate a healing factor. Luke Cage easily recovered after getting blasted by El Aguila twice around the same time frame with no healing factor, even in spite the fact that he was vulnerable to electrocution. Plenty of characters without healing factors recover from flash k.os and tkos, s*** people do that in real life too... I agree that those panels are very suggestive of Creed having a healing factor, but, you were asked to show where Sabretooth "obviously healed something." You haven't so far. You *are* however arguing for the "vague suggestions of the narrative" like I said... So either way, great. And, *still* no solid proof of Sabretooth having a healing factor until Nov 86.

"I cite a 1979-plotted, Earth-616 canon, chronologically immediate on-panel fight as applying to Sabretooth's early portrayal."

You cite a book published in 1992 as it it *was* published in 1979 even though it wasn't, demonstrating you have a flimsy grasp on how reality works.

It retroactively does apply to Sabretooth *after* it was printed, in 92, not before.
"Chronologically immediate." Lmao.
And what you mean is "almost chronologically immediately printed", which it wasn't.
You can keep referencing that fight all you like, it has no barring on how Sabretooth was chronologically *printed in that time period*, simple as that.
You can't prove Jo Duffy or Peter David had *any* idea about the direction Claremont meant to take with the character, or had any intention to mirror those ideas, and the direction Claremont meant to take is also something you are actively arguing against. Like I said before, enjoy the pickle.
Meanwhile, I *can* prove that Sabretooth had a noticeable absence of healing factor/limitation in 4 of the next 5 books he appeared in before that Ms. Marvel book was ever printed up til he was finally mentioned as having one in "X-Factor" #10.

"You cite a 2009-plotted, Earth-161 head-canon, chronologically years later plot as applying to Sabretooth's early portrayal. But my standard is the one to be mocked? Bruh, Wolverithmetics."

More accurately, I cited the creator/director intent of the character and time period of which both you are attempting to argue about. "X-Men Forever" was only referenced as compounding evidence supporting Claremont's previously documented intentions in that time period on top of two other direct quotes from said the creator/director, since, y'know, you are attempting to use Claremont's unpublished intentions as proof while ignoring those same intentions as non proof. Hypocrite.

"Ms. Marvel" #24 only works in a retroactive way, nothing more, nothing less. It wasn't printed until 92 point blank; Whatever your take on the matter beyond that is inconsequential and you *still* have not explained what Wolverine has to do with this thread but didn't bat an eyelid at the accusation of your "Wolverine hate boner." Gee, wonder why.

jinzin
"I'm surprised obscure writer interviews continue to be peddled over using the plain presentation of canon, on-panel feats."

You're surprised that someone cited the writer's intentions with the character when you are arguing about using the writer's unprinted intentions of the character?
How surprising.

The plain presentation of the canon? You mean like how Sabretooth had 6 appearances leading up to Nov of 86 and 4 of them demonstrated he didn't have a healing factor? You mean like how he had zero "feats" of healing factor until "X-Factor" #10? You mean like that?
No, of course not, because some book almost got printed once by this guy who intented for the character to.. Oh.... Pfft.

jinzin
.

ODG
Originally posted by jinzin
You're surprised that someone cited the writer's intentions with the character when you are arguing about using the writer's unprinted intentions of the character?
How surprising. Yes, I am surprised that someone cites an obscure interview as having more precedence over the plain presentation of canon, on-panel feats by that every same writer. In a canonically, immediate, contemporaneous appearance. Which also happens to be a real life historically, immediate, contemporaneous portrayal by that writer.

But, yes, keep extolling the superior, probative value of 2009-2010's Earth-161 as portrayed in X-Men Forever 2.

jinzin
Originally posted by ODG
Yes, I am surprised that someone cites an obscure interview as having more precedence over the plain presentation of canon, on-panel feats by that every same writer.
Lmfao f*** outa here with your strawmanin' ass.
Literally not an argument that has been made. No one said the interview has "more precedence" over anything. You are gaslighting like crazy.
If you don't understand how come that was brought up, then you don't understand the conversation you started.

Originally posted by ODG
In a canonically, immediate, contemporaneous appearance. Which also happens to be a real life historically, immediate, contemporaneous portrayal by that writer.
Which wasn't printed until 1992, no matter how many words you use pretending otherwise.
You really are sitting there trying to insist a Ms Marvel story printed in 1992 has weight or value on material actually printed and published before 87 in some way *other* than a retroactive one... Verifiably insane.

Originally posted by ODG
But, yes, keep extolling the superior, probative value of 2009-2010's Earth-161 as portrayed in X-Men Forever 2.

And you keep arguing against your strawman, demonstrating you have no understanding of the conversation you incidentally started.

jinzin
Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm surprised it hasn't been made official, considering all the wacky retcons the X-books have gotten lately...

Stilt noted: "It also goes nicely with the clones we've seen in Kyle's and Yost's X-Force and Loeb's Evolution arc and its sequel."

I agree. Maybe Claremont's take had an impact on the direction those writers decided to go.

ODG
Originally posted by jinzin
Lmfao f*** outa here with your strawmanin' ass.
Literally not an argument that has been made. No one said the interview has "more precedence" over anything. You are gaslighting like crazy. No, no, no.

I am arguing against dismissing Creed's first fight against Danny as if it had no probative value. That first fight does have probative value.

I've got canonicity on my side. Don't act like the shoe's on the other foot here.

You guys are arguing that it does not have probative value. It might as well not even exist for purposes of a vs thread. But that would basically be arguing against its canonicity. So the burden of proof ain't on me, pal. After all, in a vs thread between these characters, I'm not the poster trying to banish their first on-panel fight from consideration.

And you called me a hypocrite for citing to Ms. Marvel's fight with Sabretooth while not accepting X-Men Forever 2. Don't pretend you didn't. And bearing down on that accusation? Yes, I will forcefully call you out on it. It's not my fault that you decided to partially hang your hat on such an easily dismantled allegation. Not my first rodeo, pal.

jinzin
What's the value?
Cononicity isn't the issue... No one claimed "Iron Fist" #14 isn't canon.
But publishing chronology? Certainly not on your side.

"You guys are arguing that it does not have probative value." Bulls***.
Who's "you guys"? I'm a representative "you guys" now? No.
I've never once said that (quote otherwise). You've been asked what that value is half a dozen times or more now.

"It might as well not even exist for purposes of a vs thread." - Strawman. Quote where I said that here.
The fight can have value in some ways, and, not in others; Sabretooth's lack of damage soak, lack of excessive durability and lack of healing factor are present in the issue (and mostly further present in 5 of the next 5 "subsequent" issues), so the lack thereof is something to note compared to the "vast majority" of the appearances Sabretooth had that came next (including those he's had with Iron Fist). Without acknowledging that, there can't be any proper measurement. The fight has value? Great? What is it? That Rand is as fast as Sabretooth and probably more obviously skilled? Okay... Is there anything else?

"But that would basically be arguing against its canonicity." It would be, if that's what I was doing... Which I'm not. You either comprehend that, or you don't, or you do but you're a deceiver.

'"So the burden of proof ain't on me, pal. After all, in a vs thread between these characters, I'm not the poster trying to banish their first on-panel fight from consideration."

Who is? It isn't me... You can keep insinuating otherwise, but can you quote me saying that? ...Didn't think so...
And false, the burden of proof *is* yours now. You dismissed Sabretooth's early character portrayal being referenced (in context for proper measurement) with a childish label. Do you think Sabretooth had a healing factor that was clearly demonstrated and published in comics before Nov 86?
Then show us... Prove the value of your position.

.. Because I can give you four examples leading up to that point that explicitly demonstrate he didn't.
"Power Man and Iron Fist" #78 and #84. "Spectacular Spider-Man" #116 and #119... Both showcasing rather superficial wounds could put him down, and, that it took him weeks to months plus doctors to treat his wounds... All printed after "Iron Fist" #14...
What have you got?

"And you called me a hypocrite for citing to Ms. Marvel's fight with. "

You are factually a hypocrite are you not?
Let's pretend you aren't... Then how does that fight have any weight in relation to comics printed from 77 to Nov 86 in any way *other* than a retroactive one? Explain this....

jinzin
Answer: Originally posted by jinzin
What's the value?

Answer: Originally posted by jinzin
Do you think Sabretooth had a healing factor that was clearly demonstrated and published in comics before Nov 86?/// (.. Because I can give you four examples leading up to that point that explicitly demonstrate he didn't.)

Answer: Originally posted by jinzin
how does that fight ("Ms Marvel #24) have any weight in relation to comics printed from 77 to Nov 86 in any way *other* than a retroactive one?

ODG
^ I don't need to repeat my simple position that Creed's first fight against Danny has probative value. And I don't need to take your rambling insistence to the contrary in any serious manner.

But I will say this... when you jump in on the a$$-end of an ongoing discussion and ignore the conversation's course -- a conversation that you did not start -- you don't get to isolate sentences to twist my overall argument and accuse me of being a hypocrite.

I certainly don't have to apologize for calling you out from the get-go. Move the goalposts all you want, pal. I don't have to play.

Your out-of-left-field citation to Earth-161's X-Men Forever 2 storyline did elicit a sensible chuckle though.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by ODG
No, Claremont and Vosburg did. Back in 1979.

Common sense.

Random non-sequitur is random.

You've seen the unfinished product in 1979?

Common sense = no changes done in 13 years? smile

Ooookay.

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