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I have to wonder at this point in my life if religion hasn't become something that everyone and their dog seems to feel the need to advise me on. I have the Jehovah Witness showing up occasionally, I've gotten a few WatchTowers tossed my way, Ive even had a few neighbors decide that I needed to attend their church/bible study. On the other hand, Ive been blatantly criticized for believing in God and for being a member of the Catholic faith by people who don't share the same beliefs. Usually these people have no faith whatsoever, or they belong to something like the Church of Flowers and Trees. Now these very people, will come to almost the point of screaming that Catholics, or Christians are all intolerant of others, or basically full of shit.
Generally they also tend to categorize people of faith into neat little sections of what they think a persons religious beliefs say about them.


TO me and FOR me, religion is an intensely private and personal thing. I don't go around asking anyone to join my church, because quite frankly, don't give a damn what your religious beliefs are. I'm just concerned with my own soul so to speak.

What really amuses me the most, is the intense battles that play out in everyday life and in this forum as well. I'd bet it's almost like watching the old games in the Colosseum. You know where the Christians would face off against the lions. It seems to have gotten to this point. Prime example, someone will open a thread about Christians, and usually not even 10 posts into the war has begun. The non believers feel the need to swoop down and assert their belief that all Christians are intolerant and abusive while at the same time exhibiting behavior that is both intolerant and abusive. Go figure huh? Of course this works both ways. We have several members who feel it is their mission to save the souls of the people they consider to be damned in their mind. Just who put you in charge of anyone elses soul?

The point I'm trying to make during this big ramble is that does religious freedom even exist anymore? From where I am seeing it, it seems like it doesn't.

Personally I think it is WORSE here on the net. People tend to be mighty brave and abusive whilst hiding behid their keyboards. I GUARANTEE that alot of teh conversations I have been a part of would have taken on a VERY different tone had the conve been in person rather than online.

I am quite sick of all these members who feel I am in dire need of 'enlightenment' about how my faith is wrong because of this reason or that. I welcome a good debate but tend to get my claws out when I am talked down to in regard to what I believe. I believe what I do for a reason and until you have been where I have.. politely state your point and MOVE ON.

if it was to be a personal freedom thhen people should keep their beliefs to themself, dont know how many times I have stated that your belief should be personal, no one else needs to know what your beliefs are. Most religions have places of worship where you can share your belief with your kind.

if you kept it to yourself no one could say your faith was wrong, but when shared you cant expect that no one wont try to tell you that you are wrong.

No ones belief are more right nor more wrong than any other, when ones faith are used as a fact then one has to question that certain aspect

as for me I am a lot less intimidating here than in real life, but I guess that has to do with that I am better verbally than putting words in writing

Originally posted by finti
if it was to be a personal freedom thhen people should keep their beliefs to themself, dont know how many times I have stated that your belief should be personal, no one else needs to know what your beliefs are.

I agree with this for the most part, I'm generally pretty private about my religious beliefs.

more should use that example

Originally posted by bilb
Personally I think it is WORSE here on the net. People tend to be mighty brave and abusive whilst hiding behid their keyboards. I GUARANTEE that alot of teh conversations I have been a part of would have taken on a VERY different tone had the conve been in person rather than online.


Wish I could shake your hand for that post bilb. That is the best comment I've ever read here in KMC. Nothing more can be said. Well done.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I have to wonder at this point in my life if religion hasn't become something that everyone and their dog seems to feel the need to advise me on. I have the Jehovah Witness showing up occasionally, I've gotten a few WatchTowers tossed my way, Ive even had a few neighbors decide that I needed to attend their church/bible study. On the other hand, Ive been blatantly criticized for believing in God and for being a member of the Catholic faith by people who don't share the same beliefs. Usually these people have no faith whatsoever, or they belong to something like the Church of Flowers and Trees. Now these very people, will come to almost the point of screaming that Catholics, or Christians are all intolerant of others, or basically full of shit.
Generally they also tend to categorize people of faith into neat little sections of what they think a persons religious beliefs say about them.


TO me and FOR me, religion is an intensely private and personal thing. I don't go around asking anyone to join my church, because quite frankly, don't give a damn what your religious beliefs are. I'm just concerned with my own soul so to speak.

What really amuses me the most, is the intense battles that play out in everyday life and in this forum as well. I'd bet it's almost like watching the old games in the Colosseum. You know where the Christians would face off against the lions. It seems to have gotten to this point. Prime example, someone will open a thread about Christians, and usually not even 10 posts into the war has begun. The non believers feel the need to swoop down and assert their belief that all Christians are intolerant and abusive while at the same time exhibiting behavior that is both intolerant and abusive. Go figure huh? Of course this works both ways. We have several members who feel it is their mission to save the souls of the people they consider to be damned in their mind. Just who put you in charge of anyone elses soul?

The point I'm trying to make during this big ramble is that does religious freedom even exist anymore? From where I am seeing it, it seems like it doesn't.

I do believe it was way better when religion wasn't allowed on KMC, but anyway...


Religion SHOULD be a private thing. It really should - but it is not always, and for that reason, people have a nasty habit of grouping all people of certain faith into one group.

The faith is a matter of choice - but the cruel reality is, that for much part its not - its being imposed on people.

I pesonaly a far more against Islam than I am Christianity - far more. However, I do not look at Muslims as a problem - I look at their religion. Those people are victims of a doctrine which tells them that certain things are okay to do in the name of God.

Now Christianity has been like this before - but for most part its not so today, and Christians as well as non believers in America and west practice more feedom than any such group anywhere else in the world. Such things should not be taken for granted - and for the mot part they are.

Lil B, you are still quite ill informed on Islam, it is the extremists that tell the people to kill Jewish people and Christians, not the Q'oran (or however you wish to spell it).

JP> Religious freedom? No way in Hell. (Pun intended)
I don't think there is such a thing anymore, because everyone seems to be fighting with someone else over Religion. I must admit, I am an ass when it comes to Religion, (especially online), and I do not contribute to the discussions in a well-spoken manner.
But it's true. You can't walk down the street these days and say, "I'm a Christian", or "I'm an Atheist", or "I'm a Muslim" and not be condemned for your beliefs. Not that I step back and look at this, I actually feel bad for all the Christianity I've put down....

Originally posted by DCLXVI
Lil B, you are still quite ill informed on Islam, it is the extremists that tell the people to kill Jewish people and Christians, not the Q'oran (or however you wish to spell it).

Me? I am too well informed with Islam, since I studied Quran and Ahadiths.
Have you have read Ahadiths and Quran to say this? Evidently not

Quran is qute clear as to what is to be done to ''non-believers'' -

002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

003.028
Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.


008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

009.123
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
SHAKIR: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).


Would you like me to go on quoting?

Perhaps you should pick up a Quran, before you tell ME im missinformed about Islam.
And to help you - here is a online Quran -

http://www.equran.org/qrn/view/trans/compare/
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/



Read it, then come back so we can discuss.

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I have to wonder at this point in my life if religion hasn't become something that everyone and their dog seems to feel the need to advise me on. I have the Jehovah Witness showing up occasionally, I've gotten a few WatchTowers tossed my way, Ive even had a few neighbors decide that I needed to attend their church/bible study. On the other hand, Ive been blatantly criticized for believing in God and for being a member of the Catholic faith by people who don't share the same beliefs. Usually these people have no faith whatsoever, or they belong to something like the Church of Flowers and Trees. Now these very people, will come to almost the point of screaming that Catholics, or Christians are all intolerant of others, or basically full of shit.
Generally they also tend to categorize people of faith into neat little sections of what they think a persons religious beliefs say about them.


TO me and FOR me, religion is an intensely private and personal thing. I don't go around asking anyone to join my church, because quite frankly, don't give a damn what your religious beliefs are. I'm just concerned with my own soul so to speak.

What really amuses me the most, is the intense battles that play out in everyday life and in this forum as well. I'd bet it's almost like watching the old games in the Colosseum. You know where the Christians would face off against the lions. It seems to have gotten to this point. Prime example, someone will open a thread about Christians, and usually not even 10 posts into the war has begun. The non believers feel the need to swoop down and assert their belief that all Christians are intolerant and abusive while at the same time exhibiting behavior that is both intolerant and abusive. Go figure huh? Of course this works both ways. We have several members who feel it is their mission to save the souls of the people they consider to be damned in their mind. Just who put you in charge of anyone elses soul?

The point I'm trying to make during this big ramble is that does religious freedom even exist anymore? From where I am seeing it, it seems like it doesn't.

JP, you and I have posted in many of the same threads that revolve around the topic of one side of the religious question, or the other. You seem to be kind of outraged in this post about others forcing their religion on you or blasting you for being religious. Now, take that outrage and funnel it through the prism of someone who, may not have your beliefs, but has experienced the same thing. Whats more, is that it is( in so many cases) apparent that there are so many changes happening and being proposed by the christian conservative right. Not only being proposed, but funded by them. They already have the President and most of Congress in their pockets. Consider the election. 49% v 51% isn't the overwhelming mandate that it has been made out to be.

You ask why religion isn't a personal matter anymore. Well, I would be willing to bet that most of the people who blast you for being religious would ask the very same question: "Why is the religious portion of this country so hell bent on enforcing their beliefs on me?" And Bilb is right, people are more willing to argue and insult on the net, because they're not face to face with you. I have said the same of the people who blast me for being gay. Or for wanting the right to be gay without society legally spitting on me. Sitting across the table from me, their resolve will vanish. I know mine won't. I've been in that situation before and I have held up. But, most people aren't like that.

Most people argue so violently because they lump all christians into the same group. No one catholic is the same as the next. I'm catholic. I simply don't believe in it anymore. I, for lack of a better term) outgrew it. Or at least the constraints and hypocrisy that I felt it represented in my life. I have said a thousand times, on these forums alone, that religion is a personal matter. You don't wanna see me kiss my boyfriend in public, and I don't wanna see you praying in the dinning room at wendy's. Now, I have no problem with people praying. If that is what they believe and it makes them feel better, more power to them. I will stop being disgusted by the sight of it on the very same day that I don't have to fight for my right to be an equal citizen.

But I also realize that not all people who pray in public would walk up to my boyfriend and I and beat the shit out of us. So, you ask: does religious freedom exist anymore? And I answer yes. Yes it does, at the expense of all those who don't subscribe to them. It's almost like religion is the new religion.

Lil B> I uh....seem to have been misinformed on that subject....
And I'm sorry.
But still, it would appear that only the Extremists take it that far, (though many Muslim leaders do this as well&gt, exploiting the Q'uran, (or however you wish to spell it), as an excuse to murder those who do not believe in Islam, or who do not abide by Islam to the highest degree....but whatever, why am I trying to fight this with my tiny mind?
And yet, your feelings "against" Islam compared to Christianity may be even more strengthened by the anti-Islam rhetoric spouted by the American Government, (the CHRISTIAN American Government), (all thanks to the sick bastards who killed thousands in the name of Allah), however subtle it is....

Originally posted by DCLXVI
Lil B> I uh....seem to have been misinformed on that subject....
And I'm sorry.
But still, it would appear that only the Extremists take it that far, (though many Muslim leaders do this as well&gt, exploiting the Q'uran, (or however you wish to spell it), as an excuse to murder those who do not believe in Islam, or who do not abide by Islam to the highest degree....but whatever, why am I trying to fight this with my tiny mind?
And yet, your feelings "against" Islam compared to Christianity may be even more strengthened by the anti-Islam rhetoric spouted by the American Government, (the CHRISTIAN American Government), all thanks to the sick bastards who killed thousands in the name of Allah, however subtle it is....

My point is - Muslims are lovely people - they are devoted and they are being victemized by a minority of crazy extreamist, as well as some stuff Quran says - they are not the problem, the doctrine is.

Iguess the same goes for Christians - its not them as people, its their doctrine...and since im informed little less on christianity and 0 on Judaism, i cannot fully comment.

Well then, I think we are in agreement - somewhat - but the Muslim leaders will never allow any change in the Religion at all, (even if it has to do with not killing people).
But, then again, hasn't Christianity done the same thing? I mean, during the Crusades, they killed thousands in the name of their God, didn't they? Are the Muslim extremists any worse than they?
....Anyways, I'm sorry for my "misinformation".

Originally posted by DCLXVI
Well then, I think we are in agreement - somewhat - but the Muslim leaders will never allow any change in the Religion at all, (even if it has to do with not killing people).
But, then again, hasn't Christianity done the same thing? I mean, during the Crusades, they killed thousands in the name of their God, didn't they? Are the Muslim extremists any worse than they?
....Anyways, I'm sorry for my "misinformation".

As far as the Crusades go, I am a Christian and I do think that what was done was wrong. For the same reason I dont think we should be in Iraq.. Americans in general are way to worried about conforming the world to what we believe (which is ironic seeing as how WE cant even agree on that). It should be up to each indiviual to believe as you wish. Who's to say our way is better? I certainly dont think so..

As a Christian I do believe I have a mandate to 'spread the good news' as it were. However, I dont stand on street corners preaching and I dont come here looking to convert anyone. I state my case, you can agree or not but that in no way entitles you to belittle me for my belief.

point is that generalizations are dangerous and hurtful. Yes I am a Christian (and proud of it, which I why I state it) but no matter who is making the generalizations (you, me, US govt, etc... ) NONE of it is right..............

WTF does this thread have to do with the crusades?

yeah at your church whenever yor church has service

Well a bit more than that Finti, but I am not gonna cram it down your throat either

Originally posted by DCLXVI
But, then again, hasn't Christianity done the same thing? I mean, during the Crusades, they killed thousands in the name of their God, didn't they? Are the Muslim extremists any worse than they?
....Anyways, I'm sorry for my "misinformation".

How is comparing something that happened in Christianity hundreds and hundreds of years ago, sufficient to comparing to what is happening today with Islam?

There is a huge time gap - and thus such comparison is inconsistent.

Are we not in 21st century?

Thats like justifying a Holocaust today because people few thousand year ago killed each other and raped women every other day.

As Capt_Fantastic already said, wtf does anything have to do with crusades.

Frankly, Im sick of people bringing something that happened to long ago and using it to justify what happening today - its rediculous and has no grounds for an argument.

If you're gonna talk about christians and their intolerance (not all, i acknowledge) then you should talk aobut what they di today and compare it to what Islamist do as well, not compare what christians did hundreds and hundreds years ago to what islamist do today.

I agree milla, altho I think that its wise for us to remember our mistakes and learn from them....hopefully

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I have to wonder at this point in my life if religion hasn't become something that everyone and their dog seems to feel the need to advise me on. I have the Jehovah Witness showing up occasionally, I've gotten a few WatchTowers tossed my way, Ive even had a few neighbors decide that I needed to attend their church/bible study. On the other hand, Ive been blatantly criticized for believing in God and for being a member of the Catholic faith by people who don't share the same beliefs. Usually these people have no faith whatsoever, or they belong to something like the Church of Flowers and Trees. Now these very people, will come to almost the point of screaming that Catholics, or Christians are all intolerant of others, or basically full of shit.
Generally they also tend to categorize people of faith into neat little sections of what they think a persons religious beliefs say about them.


TO me and FOR me, religion is an intensely private and personal thing. I don't go around asking anyone to join my church, because quite frankly, don't give a damn what your religious beliefs are. I'm just concerned with my own soul so to speak.

What really amuses me the most, is the intense battles that play out in everyday life and in this forum as well. I'd bet it's almost like watching the old games in the Colosseum. You know where the Christians would face off against the lions. It seems to have gotten to this point. Prime example, someone will open a thread about Christians, and usually not even 10 posts into the war has begun. The non believers feel the need to swoop down and assert their belief that all Christians are intolerant and abusive while at the same time exhibiting behavior that is both intolerant and abusive. Go figure huh? Of course this works both ways. We have several members who feel it is their mission to save the souls of the people they consider to be damned in their mind. Just who put you in charge of anyone elses soul?

The point I'm trying to make during this big ramble is that does religious freedom even exist anymore? From where I am seeing it, it seems like it doesn't.

Yes I do think that relgion is a personal reason.It is your own beliefs that you choose to believe in and some times people do not share your beliefs but it is there own personal bussiness.JM

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
I have to wonder at this point in my life if religion hasn't become something that everyone and their dog seems to feel the need to advise me on. I have the Jehovah Witness showing up occasionally, I've gotten a few WatchTowers tossed my way, Ive even had a few neighbors decide that I needed to attend their church/bible study. On the other hand, Ive been blatantly criticized for believing in God and for being a member of the Catholic faith by people who don't share the same beliefs. Usually these people have no faith whatsoever, or they belong to something like the Church of Flowers and Trees. Now these very people, will come to almost the point of screaming that Catholics, or Christians are all intolerant of others, or basically full of shit.
Generally they also tend to categorize people of faith into neat little sections of what they think a persons religious beliefs say about them.


TO me and FOR me, religion is an intensely private and personal thing. I don't go around asking anyone to join my church, because quite frankly, don't give a damn what your religious beliefs are. I'm just concerned with my own soul so to speak.

What really amuses me the most, is the intense battles that play out in everyday life and in this forum as well. I'd bet it's almost like watching the old games in the Colosseum. You know where the Christians would face off against the lions. It seems to have gotten to this point. Prime example, someone will open a thread about Christians, and usually not even 10 posts into the war has begun. The non believers feel the need to swoop down and assert their belief that all Christians are intolerant and abusive while at the same time exhibiting behavior that is both intolerant and abusive. Go figure huh? Of course this works both ways. We have several members who feel it is their mission to save the souls of the people they consider to be damned in their mind. Just who put you in charge of anyone elses soul?

The point I'm trying to make during this big ramble is that does religious freedom even exist anymore? From where I am seeing it, it seems like it doesn't.

It's normal to discuss and argue and criticise and critique religion here on KMC because we have threads that are dedicated to the topic.

In the real world its another matter. You have to be crazy if you go around and do the same thing to friends or family where the conversation is uninvited.

Personal religious freedom is not dead. If you're not interested in hearing what another person has to say about their or your religion, let them know.

Dont open the door for the Jehovah's witnesses and tell your friends that you're happy with your current religion and beliefs.

Sometimes its not that easy, like when the Pro-life people show up with aborted fetuses and shove them into your face while you're waiting for the school bus.

Or when the street preacher yells and accuses you of being a hell bound demon.

Or when those crazy cult religion people corner you at the airport and try to sell you sh!t.

Religious freedom is not dead, its alive and kicking, aggressively.