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Who takes this one.?

Debate.

anyone with HOTu kills everyone is DC.

except GOD

Originally posted by kgkg
anyone with HOTu kills everyone is DC.

except GOD

100% right.

And Galactus no less. We're really running out of matchups around here.

Michael has the power of god. He is the chosen favourate of god.

THOTU is the power of the UNIverse, not the MULTIverse

I knew someone would defend Michael.

HOTU is not power of the universe.

HOTU = power of GOD

HOTU is an external force below nobody (Cleary stated by thanos that now he was an external force below nobody)

So no one can beat him except God.

Michael does have the power of god.

Originally posted by eleveninches
Michael does have the power of god.
Does he have all of it?

Originally posted by eleveninches
Michael does have the power of god.
He is created by god he is not god's equal.

last time i heard some dude mind controled his ass.


even LT >= Lucifer , M

Has Michael shown the power to end a universe with a thought?

LT is the SERVENT of TOAA.

Lucifer/Michael are the EQUALS of god.

Lt<<<TOAA
TOAA=god
Lucifer/Michael~God

therefore, Lt<<Lucifer, michael

Originally posted by Linkalicious
Has Michael shown the power to end a universe with a thought?

Doesn't he need his brother for that.

No. He needs his brother to create/destroy a multiverse.

He was given equal power to god as soon as god created him (before the birth of the multiverse)

The God youre talking about is not the same as TOAA or Presence, that was outside the DC continuity. And Lucifer and Michael were created SECOND to that God, not equal to him.

yea but hell, THOTU destroyed the multiverse, n nuthin, not even living tribunal survived that, but at the demiurgic explosion, lucifer didnt get hurt at all, so shudnt it make sense that micheal{who is after all only slightly weaker than lucifer} should also be able to survive it?

Sigh, here we go again. NOBODY can beat ANYBODY with HOTU. Thats the bottom line. Only TOAA, The Presence, and probably The Great Evil beast can beat it.

It was shown that Michael needs Lucifer and in creating a multiverse. But it WASNT shown anywhere that Michael needs Lucifer in destroying a multiverse. He has the demiurgic power. Y'all know what the Demiurgic Power is right?

And no offense, But bringing up Fenris again here is pure ignorance.

The Presence CREATED Michael and Lucifer. Not this other God outside continuity. In Vertigo/DC there is only ONE God and that is the Presence. And Michael and Lucifer are second to the Presence, NOT equal. Michael has the power of Presence(the Demiurgos) but thats not all of the power of the Presence, thats just a fraction of his true power.

It wasnt shown that Michael has the strength to end a universe with a thought, he can or he cannot, we dont know. But whats the point of asking this. I have seen nobody ending a universe in a thought. Unless someone can tell me who can do that and give me the comic issue where he/she have done that.

Some of you should really get your facts straight, unless you can back it up.

i kinda believe Michael could win this if he had the WILL power to do it. correct me if him wrong but when he beat the Spectre and after he won Spectre asked him how he won? Michael told him everything that God has created is connected with him in some way or another u just have to have the WILL POWER to fight to win., but if thats not true then Thanos wins.....

HOTU = GOD

can michael beat GOD? no

HOTU > LT = Michael

Micheal was created by God. Why would the creator create someone equal to him in power?

micheal can beat god, if he tried, not with just sheer power, but also with intelligence, lucifer has done it, plus THOUTU is NOT equal to god, its is the power over the multiverse, NOT anythin beyond that, like the beyond realm, TOAA= the creater of the multiverse, creater of beyond realm, and is beyond any of his creations like the multiverse{n hence he has power beyond THOTU, n hes also beyond the beyond realm itself}

good question cosmic cube, but then again this is the comic book world n god has DIED in it before too so.........................

Can Micheal beat the Presence? 'Cause that's what people mean when they say "God", not the God that's not really God.

no he cudnt, but then again, neither cud galactus with the heart of the universe.

Im really curious who is this other God that is not the Presence. Coz Im sure as hell there aint one.

Michael didnt need lucifers help to create a multiverse.
Michael was transported to outside of creation, where he created the multiverse all by himself by allowing himself to be killed and reborn at the start of the new multiverse. Lucifer only shaped the multiverse into a place that resembles the sort of reality that our universe has.

What are you talking about? Michael didnt create the multiverse. He only created MATTER and Lucifer shaped it into suns, stars etc. Please read the whole Lucifer comic book. Or better yet, read Lucifer #26 because it was exactly said in it. And you have to carefully read the issue(#13) where Michael was killed by Lucifer in the void. When Michael was reborn and returned to Presence's multiverse, Lucifer was left behind, and Mike Carey narrates:

"The Devil stayed awhile and watched. Ephemerial particles did their dance and then died. Gas clouds began to draw imperceptibly together, and weave themselves into stars."

This clearly shows that Michael created Matter(particles)and when he returned to our multiverse and Lucifer was left behind, this particles was formed into stars, etc. Effectively making it a Multiverse.

Im talking about when michael went outside of creation and then he did create a multiverse all by himself

HOTU = no one can beat him siple as that.

how hard is it to understand.

LT , Eternity , Infinity..................... were all part of him.

Originally posted by eleveninches
Michael has the power of god. He is the chosen favourate of god.


No.

Originally posted by eleveninches
LT is the SERVENT of TOAA.

Lucifer/Michael are the EQUALS of god.



What are you babling about, come on, equal to God, be serios, disgusting. He has fraction og God almightiness. leonheartmm, I msut say, you probably said even more disgusting thing, Michael could beat God with inteligence, haha, lol, nothing is above God pwoer or intelligence. eleveninches, he didn't create his multiverse by himslef, Michael died, demiurgic explosin happedn in the void, that explosion created matter, and that is why he was able to create own Multiverse.
You must realize The Presence would make Michale look like joke, and TOAA make one with HOTU look like joke, it's simple, nothing can stand agaisnt GOD. To original topic, yes the one with HOTU would destroy Michael.

Originally posted by eleveninches
Im talking about when michael went outside of creation and then he did create a multiverse all by himself

When was that? The only time Michael went outside creation was when Lucifer brought him there and killed him and when Michael warned Lucifer that the Presence doesnt like a new creation outside of his own creation, thats it. He never went in it ever aside from this 2 incidents. Again please read Lucifer #13 and #26 because it directly contradicts what your saying.

Michael creating matter DOES NOT mean he created the multiverse, because matter does not = multiverse. Thats crazy. Matter SHAPED into something IS Creation/Multiverse.

When michael was freed, and followed lucifer into the void, he let lucifer kill him, and then created existance outside of creation. Michael created it, as there was nothing there before he died. ucifer shaped the matter into a comprehendable universe.


And BTW, in Lucifer (cant remember the issue), lucifer is talking to michael and says that they both were given power equal to that of god

He didnt create existence outside creation. Did you not read my post where Mike Carey himself(the author) narrated what happened?

Again, Im gonna post it here(this is after Mike was reborn and returned back to our multiverse):

"The Devil stayed awhile and watched. Ephemerial particles did their dance and then died. Gas clouds began to draw imperceptibly together, and weave themselves into stars." Lucifer #13 p. 20

Notice the keyword? EPHEMERIAL PARTICLES. Are you saying that creating particles is creation? Is that what you really think? Do you really want me to define what "Matter" and "Particles" are. All Michael did was create something that has mass(solid or liquid or gas, etc) for Lucifer to shape into something. THAT is creation. Creating matter to shape into something is creation/existence/universe/multiverse, etc.

Trust me eleveninches, I know what Im saying. I have the very issue where Lucifer killed Michael in the void, right in my face. You cant just claim anything you want without providing facts. For the last 3 posts of mine, I have been providing nothing but pure facts. And still you continue to argue.

Originally posted by eleveninches And BTW, in Lucifer (cant remember the issue), lucifer is talking to michael and says that they both were given power equal to that of god

No. Sorry theyre not. There is no issue where it was said that Lucifer and Michael said that they have power equal to The Presence, because that issue does not exist.

Again, trust me on this one.

In the 'mansions of silence' storyline, around the time when the nalfagar was being shipwrecked, michael and lucifer were talking to each other, and lucifer says 'God gave us power equal to his own, and then forbid us to use it'

I for can't stand fanboys on either side. Face it anyone who tries to argue on behalf of Michael on this one is just a DC fanboy.

nope, he isnt, both micheal and lucifer are beyond the boundries of the multiverse or even the endless including fate{they can actually recreate the endless when they create a new multiverse. u think what i sai disgusting, well ill write it another way, when thanos, with THOTU used its power, he destroyed 1 {singular} MULTIVERSE, ok thas the power level of marvel, "1" multiverse. he did NOT TOUCH THE BEYOND REALM, THOTU gives u power to destroy "1"{n get it in ur heads} multiverse, this destruction destroyed all the abstracts in the multiverse including the great LIVING TRIBUNAL. now compare this with micheal or lucifer who at any given time can create 1 MULTIVERSE with each others help AND WITHOUT EXHAUSTING THEIR OWN POWERS, which means that THEY CAN CREATE "ANOTHER" "MULTIVERSE" "AGAIN" right after they have created 1, and if any 1 of them{micheal or lucifer} dies, they will without any1s help, DESTROY "1" MULTIVERSE, this FACT makes them equal to THOTU, which can also destroy "1" multiverse, BUT lucifer and micheal are above death or the multiverse which lucifer proved when micheal died{in a sense of the word} and the demiurgic explosion{which had the same power as the destruction of the single marvel multiverse by THOTU} and lucifer stood at ground zero of the explosion and was completely unharmed!, THINK ABOUT IT, this also means that if micheal or lucifer stood at ground zero of the destruction of the marvel multiverse by THOTU, they would not even get a tan!

Did it say he only unmade, not killed or destroyed, one multiverse?

And it does it matter how many verses you destroy if you're literally "God"?

other than that, micheal or mucifer alone can actually CREAT all the endless from SCRATCH, and can also RULE with complete onmnipotence any 1 multiverse that they have created,

and XPLOSIVE, before u say that i said "DISGUSTING THINGS" maybe u should actually READ any god damn lucifer comics, lucifer HAS outsmarted BOTH GOD, AND THE PRESENCE and made their schemes FAIL, even WITHOUT HIS POWERS{when lucifer was no more powerful than a human} using ONLY HIS WIT AND MIND, it doesnt matter if the presence is completely omnipotent or not, LUCIFER "HAS" OUTSMARTED IT.

u have a point swanky tuna, but the thing is that people should realize that THOTU is "NOT" equal to THE ONE ABOVE ALL, and TOAA is the TRUE "GOD" if lucifer or micheal went up against him, they would surely fail, but THOTU is not equal to TOAA, it is only= the complete power over "1" "SINGLE" multiverse, NOT ANYTHING "BEYOND THE MULTIVERSE" eg, the beyond realm.

But how do you know THOTU only gives you control over one multiverse? And what do you mean "beyond the multiverse"? Like people who have their own realm like mephisto and cyttorak? I'm pretty sure they got taken out too if everything was unmade.

i say it because there is only "1" multiverse that we know of in marvel comics, secondly BEYOND THE MULTIVERSE means the BEYOND REALM, where beyinders come from and from where the energy from cosmic cubes comes from, its not part of the multiverse at all, its BEYOND IT, but im pretty sure that it is not above TOAA, or beyond TOAA

Is it really necessary to say there are more multiverses or not if they're of no story value?

And how do you know beyonder's realm and the power cosmic weren't unmade too?

it hasent been established if the one above all has total control over all things inside the MULTIVERSE so while beyonder inside the multiverse he is below TOAA but when he is in his own realm beyond the multiverse...thats a different story.how do we know that TOAA has power over that realm......unless its a part of a larger omniverse......which tOAA controls.....

no 1 really knows anything for sure in any comic, marvel or dc, but the generally accepted storyine is this, TOAA is above anything and everything, he created 2 things in the beginning, the beyond realm and the infinite being, both completely seperate of each other, the infinte being was complete in itself and needed nothing, but in time{note that th normal TIME or existance did not exist yet as concepts, the infinte being came in touch with the emotion of loneliness and sadness because it was all alone, it then commited suicide and created the marvel multiverse that exists now, now with the creation of the multiverse, all the abstracts were created and TOAA made the living tribunal to keep the multiverse in harmony etc etc, but the beyond realm was never part o the multiverse, and was unlimited in size, THOTU is the complete power over the marvel multiverse, but logically it should not have power over anything BEYOND THE MULTIVERSE, so it has no connection with the beyond realm, it is because the beyond realm is above all the concepts and boundries of the multiverse that true beyonders have such unbelievable omnipotent powers and even the smallest leak of energy from the beyond realm in the marvel multiverse makes powerful beings like cosmic cubes.

Originally posted by eleveninches
In the 'mansions of silence' storyline, around the time when the nalfagar was being shipwrecked, michael and lucifer were talking to each other, and lucifer says 'God gave us power equal to his own, and then forbid us to use it'

It doesnt make any sense at all but Im gonna take your word for it. Although it may take me a long time for me to get the issue. But I wont forget what you said.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lucifer HAS outsmarted BOTH GOD, AND THE PRESENCE and made their schemes FAIL, even WITHOUT HIS POWERS{when lucifer was no more powerful than a human} using ONLY HIS WIT AND MIND, it doesnt matter if the presence is completely omnipotent or not, LUCIFER "HAS" OUTSMARTED IT.

When did Lucifer outsmarted The Presence? Did The Presence made a scheme that actually failed against Lucifer? I missed that.

Lucifer has ESCAPED the Presence's omniscience though if your referring to the creation of Lucy's multiverse, because the Presence had no idea that Lucifer planned to create a multiverse of his own. The Presence only knew of it after Lucy's multiverse was created. But, as far as Im concerned, thats not outwitting the Presence because in that whole arc, the Presence didnt made any move or planned anything against Lucifer, I can even argue that Presence didnt even bother to figure out whats on Lucifer's mind at all. Lucifer was the one who made a move and LUCKILY he escaped the all-knowing Presence(I seriously doubt he could do it a second time though).

Other than that, I dont remember anything of The Presence actually making a scheme against Lucifer and failed. So can you enlighten me on that?

Lucifer isnt really bothered about power. he is above and beyond such concepts.

I remember when he was fighting the basanos, one of the cards told him "you know nothing of power, lucifer" , to which he replied "and i care nothing for it"

TOAA can controll only one Multiverse just like the DCU has its own ruler and not all of dimensions can be unmade if youve read Thanos: The End Adam Warlock survived cause He was in a place outside the multiverse at the time Lucifer Morningstar also traveld beyond the Multiverse when He wanted to make His own universe to rule outside of the multiverse beyond the DC gods controll and anyway Lucifer Morningstar also servived and explosion able to destroy a multiverse i think that they really are that powerful Archangel Micheal and Lucifer Morningstar i think they really are that powerful enough to servive THOTU maybe not on one on one battle but i dont think it has enough power to totally whipe out such powerful entities i think after a while they could eventually take THOTU down if they teamed up. But since this is just Micheal i guess it would take all He had to win.

and there are other multiverse beyond the DCU and MU just look at other comics there is a Cross Gen mutliverse and ALL multiverses are under the Omniverse

well since God has given Lucifer and Michael power that can equal his own, then I would say Michael would win if God let him use his full power, if he didn't then I would say anyone with the HOTU would win, (but seeing that they both are his 2 favorites he would prob let Michael use his full power).

on another note their is 2 beings that qualify as God, it is The Source and The Presence and since The Presence has something that predates himself then The Source must be GOD. The Source is all and beyond all. When ppl talk about The Presence they are talking about the Light and Hope a aspect of The Source (God) , and when ppl talk about The Great Evil Beast they are talking about the Darkness and Sin. At the beginning GOD separated the Darkness from The Light and saw that it was good, this is the very first Big Bang, The Presence received the greatest portion of that energy, The Great Beast on the other hand was not allowed in creation because it was made to be The Presence only equal and opposite. The ONLY thing that can pre-date The Presence is someone that came from God himself, this matches The First of the Fallen storyline and he IS Satan. i believe that The Presence proceeds from the Father, he is a being of Light and Hope. When Lucifer fell from Heaven he met Sin (Satan) and after a bit Lucifer told Sin to get out of his way or he would destroy him. so after all that I myself would put Michael above anyone with THOTU, NOBODY can compare with God's most favorite and best created sons.

This is how I would rate the most powerful:

1. God the Father (The Source).
2. Lucifer/Michael/Jesus.
3. TOAA/"The Presence"/The Great Evil Beast.
4. Living Tribunal/The Spectre/The Word.

TOAA and The Presence are at 3 because they are pretty much the rulers of their multiverse's, but make no mistake about it God (Yahweh/The Source) is the 1 on the thrown in Heaven, the reason the DCU is falling apart is because Yahweh has left and of course when he left there was nothing holding the Light and Darkness apart so everything is beginning to come down around everyone. If anyone wants sites to go to that i have found i can give u them but i gotta get to bed lol. lataz
ps.... Michael WINS

I don't see how you can be "God", TOAA, and not be at the top of the list with the "God" of other companies. Just because other multiverses aren't mentioned, that doesn't mean they don't exsist. Or exsist at all since we don't really know if Marvel uses the multiple-multiverse system do we? Or because Thanos didn't get the "beyond realms", TOAA doesn't have power over them. There are many explanations for that.

Each multiverse has its own top dog i mean DC and Marvel are two sepreate companies they have the right to do that its there creations. Now if you thought of it who ever was the boss of the Omniverse would be the true top dog of all since the Omniverse has every single bit of reality in it from DCU to MU to even the real world so they say.

no way Lucifer is more powerful than the Presence or even equal to him.

Originally posted by Mider
Each multiverse has its own top dog i mean DC and Marvel are two sepreate companies they have the right to do that its there creations. Now if you thought of it who ever was the boss of the Omniverse would be the true top dog of all since the Omniverse has every single bit of reality in it from DCU to MU to even the real world so they say.
That sounds like DC talk to me.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
other than that, micheal or mucifer alone can actually CREAT all the endless from SCRATCH, and can also RULE with complete onmnipotence any 1 multiverse that they have created,

and XPLOSIVE, before u say that i said "DISGUSTING THINGS" maybe u should actually READ any god damn lucifer comics, lucifer HAS outsmarted BOTH GOD, AND THE PRESENCE and made their schemes FAIL, even WITHOUT HIS POWERS{when lucifer was no more powerful than a human} using ONLY HIS WIT AND MIND, it doesnt matter if the presence is completely omnipotent or not, LUCIFER "HAS" OUTSMARTED IT.

Again disgusting, The Presence is immesurably more pwoerful and intellgient. Kevdude, giving Lucifer above TOAA or Presence, LOL, above the one who created Lucifer, lol. Lucifer created own Multiverse, you do realize that TOAA could end that Lucifer Multiverse with blink of an eye, I mean, sorry, but you do relaize that this is one of the most stupid thing anyone coul ever say.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I don't see how you can be "God", TOAA, and not be at the top of the list with the "God" of other companies. Just because other multiverses aren't mentioned, that doesn't mean they don't exsist. Or exsist at all since we don't really know if Marvel uses the multiple-multiverse system do we? Or because Thanos didn't get the "beyond realms", TOAA doesn't have power over them. There are many explanations for that.

TOAA has power over then, TOAA is above all mulitversese, above anything and has pwoer above anything.

For clarification purposes, what is everyone's definition of "multiverse"?

For me, multiverse reminds me of Sliders with each alternate reality being part of a multiverse but existing in its own universe. The Ultimates books said to be in a completely different continuity on their own and not just another universe or alternate reality like AoA and the like are they not?

So it would look like this little tree I cobbled up: A Each branch off Tribunal would equal a multiverse. I only used two for simplicity's sake. Each Earth representing a separate "continuity". Each continuity having its own alternate realities. Each reality having it's own Odins, Watoombs, and Mephistos. Each Odin, Watoomb, and Mephisto having their own dimension linked to their universe.

So in essence, 616's continuity would be like Sliders. Infinite alternate realities. A multiverse.

Ultimates would be an entirely different Sliders with its own infinite alternate realities. Another multiverse.

Unless of course it turns out the Ultimates are an alternate reality. Then everything I said and cobbled is bunk.

swanky tuna, the multiverse is an infinite number of universes connected end on end in a sort of loop, that goes on forever, now there can be more than 1 loop or multiverse, completely seperate of one another's reality, but the realms of mephisto etc, are just slightly different parts of universes{not multiverses, they r not that significant}.

xplosive, now UR STARTIN TO "DISGUST" NO, "REVOLT" ME, did u even read my posts, i never said that the presence was not more powerful than lucifer, even god{which is a small face of the presence } is generally thought to have more power than lucifer, but in terms of intelligence, lucifer has beaten them n its not sumthing that u can reason with, its happened in the comics many times n u cant change that, secondly people seem to think tht THOTU, gives the posessor the same power as that of TOAA, but infact the only power that the holder of THOTU has is the power over the entire{singular} marvel multiverse, nothing beyond that, so even though THEY ARE EFFECTIVELY MADE "GOD" inside the multiverse, the power does not extend to anything other than the multiverse or beyond it. i have no problem accepting the fact that TOAA could kick micheal and lucifer's ass any given day, but i do not accept that THOTU is equal to TOAA, and hence i do not accept that it can harm lucifer at all,
now TOAA has power over the beyond realm too, n thas sumthing that THOTU does not have power over,
and lucifer and micheal are not governed by the will of god, meaning that their powers are not dependant on what god wills them to have, {thats spectar, whose powers are given by god}, actually lucifer and micheal have power that rival that of GOD {but is probably slightly lesser than his in terms of raw amounts of power}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
swanky tuna, the multiverse is an infinite number of universes connected end on end in a sort of loop, that goes on forever, now there can be more than 1 loop or multiverse, completely seperate of one another's reality, but the realms of mephisto etc, are just slightly different parts of universes{not multiverses, they r not that significant}.That's basically what I said.

If Thanos didn't take out the other multiverses and all the beyond realms, it could quite possibly be because he didn't know about them or couldn't comprehend them.

Thanos claimed that there was no power to challenge him.

Which makes him a GOD

He was everyone, everywhere, everything etc.

He was GOD what so hard to understand.

kgkg, have u even read anything ive posted so far, thanos W/THOTU was GOD only in the 1 single marvel multiverse.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
kgkg, have u even read anything ive posted so far, thanos W/THOTU was GOD only in the 1 single marvel multiverse.
he was god of MU
what's your point?

If Thanos didn't take out the other multiverses and all the beyond realms, it could quite possibly be because he didn't know about them or couldn't comprehend them.



thas just u ASUMING, theres no reason to believe that or facts to back it up, it is after all the heart of the "UNIVERSE" right, besides there is only 1 multiverse in marvel, as opposed to more than 1 in the dc universe.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
thas just u ASUMING, theres no reason to believe that or facts to back it up, it is after all the heart of the "UNIVERSE" right, besides there is only 1 multiverse in marvel, as opposed to more than 1 in the dc universe. Dude... there's no reason to believe anything YOU say either. You don't have facts. Especially about the multiverse thing.

I'm not going to have to downl... BUY The End am I?

uhhh, should i explain everythin i said again for ya kgkg, ok listen, marvel has only 1 multiverse, and thanos was GOD of that single multiverse, nothing beyind it{the beyond realm}, dc on the other hand have more than 1 multiverse, meaning that the over all power level of the dc reality and marvel reality are not quite even , its just like 2 empire, the first 1 being 20000 square miles wide, n the second 1 being 40000 square miles wide, the emporer of the first empire would be GOD IN HIS OWN EMPIRE WITH NO EQUAL, same goes for the second emporer, however when these two omnipotents fight, theyd certainly know that the second holds twice as much power as the first one, even though, in their private states, they were omnipotent, its kinda trhe same with marvel and dc, the power levels of the two realities is not the same, just like the power level of the marvel universe and the street fighter universe is not the same, u get my point?

um what i meant to say was that there is a helluva lot more of "EVERYTHING" and "EVERYWHERE" in the dc universe when compared to the marvel universe.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
dc on the other hand have more than 1 multiverse
Can you reference these other multiverses?

sure can. currently the multiverse that lucifer created is different from god's multiverse, lucifer allowed free access to any1 who does not want to live under the power of god, n said that they can live in HIS universe as long as they follow 1 rule:"u shall not worship any1, not even lucifer"
the original HELL where lucifer was exiled to was also a different multiverse, n then ofcourse theres the normal multiverse of dc where everythin else happens.

I don't get it what does having different Multiverse even matter?

If that's the case Thanos with HOTU can makes 1000 million multiverse.
lol

no thas where ur wrong kgkg, ur ASSUMIN that THOTU can create a 1000million universes, but thas obviously not true, n theres no fact to back it up, u just WANT to believe that nothing is above THOTU.

multiverse : in the metaphysical theory of multiple universes, the universe in which all other "universes" exist

Has nothing to do with power.

DC god could have made million of multiverse.

So could Marvel God, not making doesn't make any difference when

it comes to GOd vs creation of God.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no thas where ur wrong kgkg, ur ASSUMIN that THOTU can create a 1000million universes, but thas obviously not true, n theres no fact to back it up, u just WANT to believe that nothing is above THOTU.
Thanos with HOTU Recreated ThE Marvel Multiverse.

lol so there you have it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
sure can. currently the multiverse that lucifer created is different from god's multiverse, lucifer allowed free access to any1 who does not want to live under the power of god, n said that they can live in HIS universe as long as they follow 1 rule:"u shall not worship any1, not even lucifer"
the original HELL where lucifer was exiled to was also a different multiverse, n then ofcourse theres the normal multiverse of dc where everythin else happens.
Can you name any of the universes within Hell and Lucifer's multiverse? Because if there are none, it really doesn't make them any different than like an alternate reality other than Lucifer's claim on them.

Originally posted by kgkg
Thanos with HOTU Recreated ThE Marvel Multiverse.

lol so there you have it.
That's right... and Michael needed Lucifer to make one. And Thanos was all by his lonesome.

Surely the mightly Galactus for all his knowledge and power should be in a greater position to accomplish such a feat with the same equipment!

swanky tuna, recreating is different than creating 2 of the same things, plus the complete power of THOTU, is the destruction of the single multiverse, it cant create anything outside is, like lets say, another multiverse, lucifer cud do it, so cud micheal, they could do it alone, just by killing themselves, then they can easily bring themselves back to life because death has no claim over them. so u see, micheal or lucifer cud create another universe while there being 1 already in existnace, but THOTU had to destroy the universe first to RECREATE it.

n swanky tuna, i dont think they actually have NAMES FOR UNIVERSES, n u know as well as i do that seperate multiverses are quite different from alternate realities.

He unmade the multiverse then he remade it. Once it was gone he was essentially rebuilding it from nothing which is exactly what Lucifer and Michael did.

And I'm tired of saying verse words. I meant it sounded like the Mojoverse or something. A neighboring universe. ARE there seperate universes within Hell and Lucifer's "multiverse" or are you just speculating?

It really doesn't matter how many multiverses there are. There could be one or a trillion, it wouldn't change a thing.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
swanky tuna, the multiverse is an infinite number of universes connected end on end in a sort of loop, that goes on forever, now there can be more than 1 loop or multiverse, completely seperate of one another's reality, but the realms of mephisto etc, are just slightly different parts of universes{not multiverses, they r not that significant}.

xplosive, now UR STARTIN TO "DISGUST" NO, "REVOLT" ME, did u even read my posts, i never said that the presence was not more powerful than lucifer, even god{which is a small face of the presence } is generally thought to have more power than lucifer, but in terms of intelligence, lucifer has beaten them n its not sumthing that u can reason with, its happened in the comics many times n u cant change that, secondly people seem to think tht THOTU, gives the posessor the same power as that of TOAA, but infact the only power that the holder of THOTU has is the power over the entire{singular} marvel multiverse, nothing beyond that, so even though THEY ARE EFFECTIVELY MADE "GOD" inside the multiverse, the power does not extend to anything other than the multiverse or beyond it. i have no problem accepting the fact that TOAA could kick micheal and lucifer's ass any given day, but i do not accept that THOTU is equal to TOAA, and hence i do not accept that it can harm lucifer at all,
now TOAA has power over the beyond realm too, n thas sumthing that THOTU does not have power over,
and lucifer and micheal are not governed by the will of god, meaning that their powers are not dependant on what god wills them to have, {thats spectar, whose powers are given by god}, actually lucifer and micheal have power that rival that of GOD {but is probably slightly lesser than his in terms of raw amounts of power}

I said that Kevdude said Lucier is above Presence, not for you. At least you said TOAA has power also beyond realm too (he could end the multiverse that Lucifer created easily), logicly speaking, he proablby at first created that realm. Of cousrs HOTU is not equal to TOAA, no one is. And no matter how much power Lucifer has, that pwoer will always be only fraction of God alimightiness, and actully that fraction is enough to create Multiverse.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
If Thanos didn't take out the other multiverses and all the beyond realms, it could quite possibly be because he didn't know about them or couldn't comprehend them.





Thanos with HOTU could take any beyond realm or any other multiverse, or let says somehing that is much more than Multiverse, whole Marvel Universe. His pwoer was beyond any realm, he ahd pwoer beyond anything. His pwoer would awlays be and no one would be able to challgene him and beat him, except God=TOAA. And logicly speaking, Lucifer power is also fraction of Thanos with HOTU. leonheartmm, you must except that Lucifer is actully mere of insect comapred to TOAA, he can't do to TOAA nothing more than antz could do. And I think THOTU would smash Lucifer with bllink of an eye and his own multiverse and his hell.

Originally posted by kevdude
well since God has given Lucifer and Michael power that can equal his own, then I would say Michael would win if God let him use his full power, if he didn't then I would say anyone with the HOTU would win, (but seeing that they both are his 2 favorites he would prob let Michael use his full power).

eleveninches phrases it as "God gave US power equal to his own, and then forbid US to use it"

Base on that statement, it could just mean that Lucifer and Michael COMBINED has powers equal to him. I seriously doubt individually they are equal to him. Because if that's the case then that would mean the Presence only has HALF the power to create a multiverse(just like Mikey and Lucy).

Originally posted by kevdude on another note their is 2 beings that qualify as God, it is The Source and The Presence and since The Presence has something that predates himself then The Source must be GOD. The Source is all and beyond all. When ppl talk about The Presence they are talking about the Light and Hope a aspect of The Source (God) , and when ppl talk about The Great Evil Beast they are talking about the Darkness and Sin. At the beginning GOD separated the Darkness from The Light and saw that it was good, this is the very first Big Bang, The Presence received the greatest portion of that energy, The Great Beast on the other hand was not allowed in creation because it was made to be The Presence only equal and opposite. The ONLY thing that can pre-date The Presence is someone that came from God himself, this matches The First of the Fallen storyline and he IS Satan. i believe that The Presence proceeds from the Father, he is a being of Light and Hope. When Lucifer fell from Heaven he met Sin (Satan) and after a bit Lucifer told Sin to get out of his way or he would destroy him. so after all that I myself would put Michael above anyone with THOTU, NOBODY can compare with God's most favorite and best created sons.

This is how I would rate the most powerful:

1. God the Father (The Source).
2. Lucifer/Michael/Jesus.
3. TOAA/"The Presence"/The Great Evil Beast.
4. Living Tribunal/The Spectre/The Word.

TOAA and The Presence are at 3 because they are pretty much the rulers of their multiverse's, but make no mistake about it God (Yahweh/The Source) is the 1 on the thrown in Heaven, the reason the DCU is falling apart is because Yahweh has left and of course when he left there was nothing holding the Light and Darkness apart so everything is beginning to come down around everyone. If anyone wants sites to go to that i have found i can give u them but i gotta get to bed lol. lataz
ps.... Michael WINS

Nope, sorry. The Presence is THE God of DCU and TOAA is THE God of MU. There is no power above them.

The Source isnt THE God. Proof: When Lucifer went to the edge of the universe to see everythng thats happening in the multiverse(he was watching Amenadiel attack his bar, while at the same time, he was looking for Michael), he met The Source. And this is what exactly was said:

"........he doesnt think twice about stuff like that. So he went to the edge of everything. There's something out there called The Source, But thats not what he was after, in fact, he IGNORED it." Lucifer #11

So no, The Source is not THE God. And if your going to give me facts, please dont give me references to articles that are meant to be applicable in our real world, because the real world does not entirely relate to the comics world. Give me facts that was said IN the Comics.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
xplosive, now UR STARTIN TO "DISGUST" NO, "REVOLT" ME, did u even read my posts, i never said that the presence was not more powerful than lucifer, even god{which is a small face of the presence } is generally thought to have more power than lucifer, but in terms of intelligence, lucifer has beaten them n its not sumthing that u can reason with, its happened in the comics many times n u cant change that

And I ask you again: when did Lucifer outwitted The Presence?

Originally posted by kgkg
Lucifer was mind controlled (wow that multiverse he created really showed that he was all that? Like I said if someone can mind control his ass it shows he is not supreme)

Now I dont disagree with both you and Swanky Tuna's arguments about HOTU and the MU multiverse, but I will say this again and again and again until you STOP bringing up Fenris in every discussion about Lucifer: Lucifer(and Michael) was already HEAVILY damage BEFORE their encounter with the wolf. Can you please understand that? Ive already said this many times here in KMC, but you continue to ignore it.

Thanos with HOTU could take any beyond realm or any other multiverse, or let says somehing that is much more than Multiverse, whole Marvel Universe. His pwoer was beyond any realm, he ahd pwoer beyond anything. His pwoer would awlays be and no one would be able to challgene him and beat him, except God=TOAA. And logicly speaking, Lucifer power is also fraction of Thanos with HOTU. leonheartmm, you must except that Lucifer is actully mere of insect comapred to TOAA, he can't do to TOAA nothing more than antz could do. And I think THOTU would smash Lucifer with bllink of an eye and his own multiverse and his hell


again, theres is NO PROOF THAT thanos with the HEART OF THE UNIVERSE has power over anything BEYOND that one single multiverse,
n i AGREE WITH THE SECOND PART, LUCIFER AND MICHEAL "ARE" ANTS INFRONT OF TOAA, i have NO problem with accepting that fact but my whole argument is that THOTU is nowhere near as powerful as TOAA, n thas why it doesnt have power over micheal or lucifer.

kgkg. u ARE HOPELESS, IM SURE EVEN AN ANIMAL WOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD BY NOW, U R SAYIN THE SAME SHIT OVER N OVER AGAIN, WHICH I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED A THOUSAND TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
looks like u just want me to keep writin long ass replies n gettin tired while in the end, all u have to do is dismiss all that ive said as complete bullshit, i dont get what ur roblem is, u probably dont even read my damn posts or even part of them.

well all you been saying is power over one multiverse bullshit.

whatever dude, im not gonna waste my time here anymore

Good me too. You seem to have convinced nobody.

Nice try, you do seem to know a lot about comics but you're getting all these crazy idea that are not logical.

thats wierd, coming from a man that doesnt seem to have been born with the human trait of common sense and whose posts contain NO LOGIC WHATSOEVER, n just cause u rent convinced doesnt mean no1 else is.

Synchro the only article that I put up that was not a article of comics was 1 explaining what The Word was, The Word is the same thing in the DCU/Vertigo as in the real world. 2nd If u really do want a site explaining and telling everyone that The Source is GOD then I will give you not 1 but 3 sites that are in Comics to go to and check it out, here they are
http://www.dcuguide.com/History/History_Beginning.php
http://www.sean-walsh.com/newgods/ngfaq.htm\
http://www.comicboards.org/lucifer/LuciferStory.html

also another name for The Presence is The Voice.. The Presence/The Source are aspects of each other or they are 2 different names for the same being, the source/the presence lives in the highest tower in the Silver City that over watches EVERYTHING. now thinking about it I would put THE PRESENCE at number 1 as well. the only 2 beings that would begin to have the power that God is on is Lucifer and Michael...

ps Michael still wins

Galactus with the Heart of the Universe? He'd be just below TOAA. Michael gets owned.

Originally posted by kevdude
Synchro the only article that I put up that was not a article of comics was 1 explaining what The Word was, The Word is the same thing in the DCU/Vertigo as in the real world. 2nd If u really do want a site explaining and telling everyone that The Source is GOD then I will give you not 1 but 3 sites that are in Comics to go to and check it out, here they are
http://www.dcuguide.com/History/History_Beginning.php
http://www.sean-walsh.com/newgods/ngfaq.htm\
http://www.comicboards.org/lucifer/LuciferStory.html

also another name for The Presence is The Voice.. The Presence/The Source are aspects of each other or they are 2 different names for the same being, the source/the presence lives in the highest tower in the Silver City that over watches EVERYTHING. now thinking about it I would put THE PRESENCE at number 1 as well. the only 2 beings that would begin to have the power that God is on is Lucifer and Michael...

ps Michael still wins

See, the problem with the sites that you gave was that those sites are unofficial and are prone to mistakes. What I meant was give me facts that are exactly in the comics itself(i.e comic issues and such). Ive given you reference which states that The Source CANT be the Presence: Lucifer #11

dcuguide's history of DCU have DIRECTLY contradicted what was established in the Lucifer Comic Book ITSELF.

In the dcuguide, it was stated that AFTER the multiverse was created, The Source came into existence and then Lucifer, The Angels, The Endless, etc. came next. But in Lucifer(#26), it was stated that BEFORE the multiverse was created the Presence was already in existence. Then he created Lucifer and Michael which shortly AFTER that the universe/multiverse was created(courtesy of Mikey and Lucy). Thats what was said. Even dcuguide.com itself stated it in Lucifer's Bio, which would mean that dcuguide.com contradicts ITSELF.

And no. The Source does NOT reside in the Silver City. It was EXACTLY shown in Lucifer #11 that The Source resides at the edge of creation. He's a big, giant yellowish rock-like kind of guy. And Lucifer came there and stood in The Source's shoulder without any objections from The Source.

The Voice and The Word are ASPECTS of the Presence. Not the Presence himself. Spectre calls The Word his "older brother". Are you saying that The Presence is Spectre's brother? The Word was also defeated by an Earth Elemental named Tefe, surely The Presence isnt that weak, is he?

well I have been away from comics for 7 years so I'm kinda outta whack and trying to read up on everything I have missed in comics on the Internet. . In Dcuguide.com it says The Voice opens it's mouth and creates the Word, that is the reason why I said he is The Presence even tho I have read elsewhere that The Voice is a aspect of The Presence just like The Word like you have also said (even tho I never said The Word is The Presence).

I myself never really should have put The Presence down that far at 3 he SHOULD be at 1, I don't know what I was thinking lol, sorry my mistake..

Also about The Word, he destroyed the Parliament of Trees but then Tefe destroyed him, but then hasn't The Spectre talked about him as tho he was not dead??? and of course the Presence could win over Tefe, Tefe is nothing to the Presence.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
thats wierd, coming from a man that doesnt seem to have been born with the human trait of common sense and whose posts contain NO LOGIC WHATSOEVER, n just cause u rent convinced doesnt mean no1 else is.
Leon, man, you're basing your entire arguement on assumptions and not believing what Thanos said because he could be lying. Well guess what, all we have to go on is what the characters say. If we didn't believe them we'd have 40 page arguements about whether or not Spidey's web is actually stronger then steel cable and if Cyclops could really blow up a small planet.

I don't think kgkg is the one without common sense.

7 years.......Damn, you seriously should catch up. But yeah, if thats the case kevdude, then its ok. No need to apologize.

And yeah, dcuguide's history of DCU states that The Word was created when The Voice opened its mouth, but if you look at The Word's bio in that exact same site, it was stated that The Word is an incarnation of the first word spoken by God in the beginning. So its another contradiction for dcuguide.

And about Tefe, Spectre did say that the Word cant die, but the fact remains that The Word was overpowered and defeated by an Earth Elemental seals it for me. Im sure The Presence, regardless of his immortality, wont be defeated by such a lower being.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
how the hell should i know what was in them, i already told u that the first multiverse was the normal DC multiverse, the second one was HELL, and the third one is the one lucifer currently made{all by himself without any help that i know of} and in which he resides in n lets any being that does not want to live under god reside with him with no rules or limitations of god, i dont know what beings live in these but why is that important? n last time i checked, universes and multiverse didnt have name. looks to me like ur tryin to dismiss the whole fact that lucifer created multiverses

I completely missed this. But anyway, no leonheartmm, Lucifer didnt create the multiverse he's currently in all by himself, as Ive said before on eleveninches, he needed Michael to do that. Refer to Lucifer #13, because it was shown in there: Lucifer brought Michael to the void and killed him that lead to the demiurgic explosion, which, as a result, became Matter and then Lucifer shaped it into Suns, Stars, Planets, etc.

It's already firmly established that Lucifer and Michael CANT create multiverses on their own. They seriously need each other to do that.

Also Hell is not a creation of Lucifer. It was already there even before he was cast out of Heaven.

Syncho I dont really think they have contradicted themselves its just how they word everything, however i do believe they did make a few mistakes with The Voice and The Presence. also after reading more of dcuguide and more sites that I have found with the Comics books themselves and dates . I would have to say The Source came into existence and then The Voice when the original universe was created that The Presence helped Lucifer and Michael create. also I read The Sources bio on DCUguide and it says he is possibly a aspect of God and Heaven...

here is 2 sites you should look at they have the dates and comic books that show when it happens.
http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/docs/pre20thcentury.html
http://dcu.smartmemes.com/DCTL_1_TL.html

In the first link I believe they made a BIG mistake because they have put Imperiex above EVERYONE and EVERYTHING, i know he is VERY powerful but he can never be above the Source, The Presence or Lucifer and Michael. Imperiex is the embodiment of entropy, signaling the end of existence. he destroyed the last DC Universe that was here before the current DC Universe that we know of today, if u look down on that list on the first link u see a being named the Shattered God, he is a being that formed in the Void, When it utters its first word, the stress it places on the nascent reality causes it to fragment into millions of pieces. this event seems to be the actual Big Bang. it seems to me this being is Imperiex Prime but Im not sure, what does everyone think??

Well, Im not really an expert on Imperiex, so I cant really comment on it.

In the 2nd link. It shows that the Source existed before the multiverse. Although if you read its description on the right side, the one who made this wasnt even sure if the Source preceded the mutliverse that Lucifer and Michael created because he/she said "we may presume". Unless Im missing something. Also, it didnt mention about the time the Presence created Lucifer and Michael. The first reference to the brothers was already the creation of the multiverse. He/she shouldve mentioned their creation because, as far as Im concerned, that is very important.

So yeah, Im still a bit skeptical about the links you gave.