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Ah, the perennial topic returns...

Not that I have actually read it myself, but I have been told that both the AOTC novel and the 'Art of AOTC' book make strong reference to Qui-Gon trying to communicate to Anakin just before he wipes out the Tuskens.

And more to the point, Yoda ALSO hears Qui-Gon, as he is probing the Force to try and feel the future at the time. The book (apparently) notes that this is a considerable surprise to him- for he had no idea that a Jedi could continue to do anything after death at all.

Well, we'll have to see what is included in the film itself- but damn interesting, eh?

I am sure queeq and myself can argue this one to death; I can't be arsed to re-count everything we have said on this subject so far...

Very interesting.

But don't worry, we wont rehash the debate until the movie comes out.

I am 99.9999999999% sure that Qui-Gon's voice will not be heard in the film.

We'll see. There's still that 0,000000000000001% chance.

That and the lava duel together you may move up to .00000000002%.

Lots of possibilities I see.

Well I kind of hope that it is in. The Qui-Gon thing I mean.

Certainly I was surprised to hear this news- which I cannot in any way confirm- because I was also sure about Qui-Gon's no show.

But it WAS in the script at some point, maybe very early on, and it has made it to the book (again, so I am told). Which at least gives us an indication about which way GL is thinking even oif there is no canonical position here.

It wasn't in a early draft of the script, but it is in the novel. I think it is just one of those things that's in the novel, but not the film. TPM's novel had many of those.

I understand that the "Art of AOTC" book makes out it was in the script.

And don't they use the real script in Art of AOTC?

I couldn't tell you.

It may have been in later versions of the script, but that doesn't even mean it's in the film.

right. yall have to wait an see the movie to be sure.

Yes indeed.

I sure hope that happens. As a guy on the Official Sites' forum says, Liam Neeson said wasn't in the movie, but that doesn't mean that he isn't HEARD.

Emperor Helmet, don't mess.

I hope it IS in the movie ... it would be a really nice poignant touch i think; because that episode, marks the beginning of the fall of anakin to the dark side; and Qui Gon, who first discovered him, wanted to do his best to dissuade him, or hold him back from starting down the dark path; because once u do, forever it dominates your destiny in the words of Yoda; and Qui Gon trying his best to communicate with anakin and stop him from taking that first step to the dark side ( by giving into his emotions of anger and violence, and thirst for revenge ) which would recoil on him with tragic repurcussions would be a really subtle and, like i said, poignant touch.

yoda was wrong
the chosen one did come back to the light side...well with a little help from luke of course.

Helm is embarrassed coz the script of "the art of AOTC" is NOT the scriptMENT he posted here!!!!

The novel for AOTC does contain Qui-gon's voice, but there is little evidence of his ghost actually showing up.

Yoda was NOT wrong at all. The Dark Path did indeed forever cloud Anakin;s destiny. Even as he rejected it, he could only do so by sacrificing himself.

at least he freed himself at the end...
just got the impression that he wanted to do that earlier but didn't find the right time... dunno...
I want qui-gon in ep2 coz he was the coolest character in ep1

Seeing the ghost would be cool, but it's most likely not going to. Hearing Qui-Gon's voice is more likely, if either one are to happen.

That just put a weird picture in my head. Anakin's about to kill a group of Tusken Raiders when suddenly Qui-Gon, all blue and transparent, jumps out at him and says "Ooga booga ooga booga ooga booga ooga booga ooga booga!!!!!!"

Well, he couldn't kill the Emperor by cutting him in half, cause his lightsaber was gone. So he picked up the Emperor and tossed him down the shaft, thus frying himself from the Emperor's force lightning.

I don't know!

And, there's always what Ush said in Why did Luke win over Vader in Ep6? in the OT section. Anakin brought Balance to the Force by killing the Emperor and then dying, because he was the last Sith after Palpy was "killed." This is where EU screws everything up, because Exar Kun suddenly appears on Yavin IV, and Palpy had cloned himself. Those writers must not have been as learned as us in the knowledge of Star Wars.

Hey, EU is all irrelevant...

Fernando, did Yoda say:

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will you be absolutely 100% evil and utterly incapable of feeling things like love"?

No. He said it would forever dominate your destiny. I rather think Anakin's situation is absolute proof of that. No matter what he did, he could NOT escape the fact that he had turned to the Dark Side. It is not something you can ignore, or put behind you. He did return to the good, but he paid with his life.

yoda said:
"once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" (or something like that)

by saying this we can assume he implied that vader would never return to the light side.
and as you have said ush:

then yoda was wrong about the chosen one, like i said.

and your point of view
is very true also.

Listen ... stop nitpicking ... the fact is ... Anakin tasted of the dark side when he wiped out the tuskens ... for the first time. That was the beginning ... and the end of that beginning was ... the almost complete extermination of Anakin Skywalker and the birth of Darth Vader ... Lord of the Sith. Now ..... for the better part of his life ... he remained a sith lord ... so ... as Ush says ... it DID dominate his destiny. That he rediscovered his true self in the end does not really change that. Anakin started down the path of the dark side and, in the process lost his soul to the darkside for practically his whole life, as well as his destiny which was to become the most powerful jedi of all time.
Instead, by starting down the path of darkness, he was, for all practical purposes, DEAD, from approximately his 22nd year to the end of his life, except for the very end ... i.e. take the road of darkness, and forever will it dominate your destiny.
Yoda's words ARE true, you see ?

Indeed, Fernando. I do not believe you read my post properly. My point was that Yoda did NOT mean what you take it to mean. He meant what he said literally. Once Anakin started down the dark path, it DID always dominate his life! Turning back or otherwise!

And please don't mind the "nitpicking remark" ! No offence meant !

Well, Anakin "dies" when he become Vader, and Vader just "dies" when Anakin returns to the Light. Vader never goes to the Light-side of the Force, but Anakin does.

Well said Master Harmax. Well said indeed.

fernando, i think yoda ment exactly what he said. "dominate your destiny" meaning always effects your future. an analogy that might help is to consider turning to the dark side as becoming an alcoholic. even if one decides he has a problem and stops drinking he will always be a recovering alcoholic and so you could say that alcohol will forever dominate his destiny. anakin's turn at the end doesn't change anything, everything in his life since his original turn to his final redemtion revolved around his choosing the dark path.

Yes, Fernando. It is completely irrelevant whether Anakin returned to the Light Side or not. But his turning ALWAYS infleucvned EVERYTHING in his life from then on. Which is what Yoda meant. You cannot escape your decision to turn to the Dark Side.

Anakin's destiny is the same no matter which way you look at it. His destiny was to bring balance to the Force. It was up to him how he would go about it. It is entirely up to him. He he would have remained a Jedi, he would have brought balance, if he chooses the Darkside, the same thing. I believe that it will be assumed after Episode III, everyone will think that Anakin really isn't The Chosen One. I believe everyone involved, believes that Luke is, including Obi-Wan and Yoda, not to mention Sidious.

Shut up and agree with Sarlacc and Ush. I do.

Fernando, no offense taken.

It was his "decision", but he didn't have to turn to the darkside to accomplish his destiny.

I didn't say he did. That wasn't really what we were talking about, though. We weren't talking about his status as the Chosen One at all; simply the consequences- for anyone- who turns to the Dark Side.

About the ghost thing again! I haven't read the noivel yet, but I asked someone on another board who did. He told me this:

"Well, after Anakin loses his mother he becomes so filled with rage that he becomes this beacon of anger in the Force. So much so that Yoda feels it while meditating on Coruscant. Then they both hear Qui-gon's voice calling out Anakin no, stop!


Then Yoda snaps out of it and tells Mace that Skywalker is suffering. Added to that, Yoda is shocked that a voice came back after becoming one with the Force. I believe this might be the clue the his and Obi-wan's disappearance and the retaining of their Jedi spirits. Maybe it's a door unlocked by Anakin. "

Sounds like my theory is about to become real, Ush, IF it is the movie though! THe link with Anakin sort of causing it is new, yet it is the clue to how the ghost thing did come about.

Remember, there are a lot of things in the novels that aren't in the films. I would be very surprised if this is in the film.

thanx Sarlacc. That really made sense.

Anyway, who cares Helmet?

ME!!! ALWAYS!!!!

you're welcome. i'm gald that anything i said could actually help someone's understanding or whatever. and on the subject of the ghost, i hope its included whether its a physical pressence or just vocal. i haven't (and won't) read the novelization, but i think having a qui-gonn "apperance" will be another interesting link for all the movies. especially if this is how yoda and obiwan learn of this possibility and if anakin is the reason for this and it ultimately comes back to haunt him, so to speak.

And haunt him and terrorize him and give him nightmares. He wakes up in the middle of the night: "Palpy, OB1's ghost is scaring me again. I feel like maybe I shouldn't have killed him..."

Your theory is about to come true, queeq? Huh? WHat an odd thing to say! I've never heard you say ANYTHING like that! It sounds a lot more like what people like me and bigsef have said.

I thought your theory was that it was Qui-Gon's burning that would make him spirit capable?

and we now know who "invented" it too

I'm just rather surprised by what queeq said.

can't blame him, dude is Dutch

Ah... I see...

Actually, I didn't think either of us HAD theories, just some basic points. My main points were:

1. The Disappearing and being a Ghost are linked

2. It is NOT a standard Jedi trick

3. It is something to do with the Prophecy/Midichlorians.

I still believe in 1, though obviously this puts a new angle on it all.

And furthermore, I am pretty sure that queeq and myself mostly agreed these days. I never agreed that burning Qui-Gon helped make him a ghost, though. But his statement about this theory becoming real confuses me. I think it more confirms the direction in which we were both thinking, but we had never come up with a specific theory that sounded anything like that.

I remember in the TPM novel, Anakin telling Padme that he was going to marry her in Watto's shop. That never happened either.

You are getting bent out of shape over something that probably isn't going to be in the film.

I don't actually care that much if it is in the film. The point is, queeq and myself have been trying to decode this one for a while, so any indication of the way GL might be thinking is useful.

The actual answer will be in ep.iii, of course.

Because he said he would.

he did?

if he did, then we should just wait an see if aotc gives some answers away, and if there are many more left unanswered then wait for episode III. why take so much trouble guessing and arguing?

because if you didn't this forum would be empty

Okay, Ush, it's true that the BURNING as key is not clear from this. But what is clear that (if this is in the movie as well) that DISAPPEARING is not essential for ghostness... It comes from somehwere else.... ergo: neither is linked and it still doesn't prove anything that Anakin disappears in ROTJ. That was one of the key points of the argument. This proves the ghostness is caused by something else.

Anakin does disappear, just not on camera. All that is burned by Luke is the Vader outfit.

yes, that's the discussion point too, because it's not clearly visible

Fernando- this place is for speculation as well as fact discussion, see? In fact, speculation is the primary reason for it. Queeq and myself happen to like to talk this over, and its not good if we simply wait for the answer, is it?

Helmet, the debate about whether Anakin disappeared in his armour rages on; I say yes, queeq says no, the official site says yes, yet it was never seen on camera... yadda yadda yadda... and ;ets not go over it again.

Back to the main subject... I think you will find, queeq, thsat the disappearing WILL still be linked to ghost form. Especially as Liam isn't appearing as a ghost; I think he will be a special case. Like I always said.

It will be fixed when the DVD's come out. I wouldn't be surprised if those shots of Anakin dying in front of Luke were re-shot using Hayden.

Oh, well, maybe. Like I say, it's fun to guess before the facts are fully known.

According to my new issue of SW insider;

Liam Neeson recorded NO dialogue for AOTC.

He didn't do anything for Episode II according to Lucas and McCallum.

And Lucas has already said that Anakin disappeared, just not on screen. It's a way to cover his butt.

but the dude is in Ep II

Actually, Helm, I do not believe that GL has ever said that. If he has, can your provide the quote?

I have Steve Sansweet and Rick McCallum saying it, but not the man himself.

Yerss... what do you mean?

I find it better if he wasn't, like something ended in TPM, it was final, no return, like Maul

No, my point was, I thought it had been established that he ISN'T in ep. ii.

in that case I'm happy

I'd rather just have him mentioned. I think it's smart to not have him come back, unless they plan on having all of the Jedi standing there at the end of ROTJ.

Which would be completely unneeded.

Is there such a quote, Helm?

It;s be a shame if Qui-Gon's contribution towards the final victory in ROTJ is never further recognised at all.

Why would they need to put Qui-Gon in ROTJ at all? He had nothing to do with the OT!

It's the only way to add the ultimate link to both trilogies.

No it's not!

The ultimate link is Darth Vader, Plapatine!!!

Why would they put Qui-Gon in there if Luke doesn't even know who he is? Why would he show up to cheer their victory over a war he wasn't around to see???

Because the whole thing was of his construction.

Not essentual, of course, But I would still like at least one more reference to Qui-Gon, somehwre.

In ghost form for instance.

But how would they do it?

Have a holo picture of Qui-Gon inserted into Obi's hut?

well, people claim one piece of his clothing is there...

Yes, his poncho was there. Nice piece of retro-continuity.

You can't exactly say it is his. But it looks like his and there is no ther reference to it.

I still feel that a scene where Qui - Gon is seeing Anakin about to lose it, and he cries out for him to stop, and Yoda picks that up in his meditations would be pretty cool ..... Qui Gon discovered Anakin, recognized him to be the chosen one mentioned in the ancient prophecy, and insisted that he be trained, going against the will of the jedi order. Anakin's his protege, and I think a scene of Qui Gon ( from the spritit world ) seeing Anakin about to start down the road of the dark side for the first time, and trying to stop him from doing so, and Yoda, deep in meditation, seeing this happen in his inner eye .... forgive me .... but I think it would be really cool.

Thats an cool idea harmax. It would be awesome to see on film.

I got the ART OF STAR WARS today which includes the AOTC script.... and the scene of Yoda meditating and hearing Qui-Gon's voice is IN THE SCRIPT!!!!

So what we have here is basically what we hear in ANH when OB1 speaks to Luke.... but then for the very first time.

I'll be right over.

And that means what, exactly? We already knew that.

queeq is there any way you can upload the script?
even on zip file?

Go buy it you cheapskate.

Well, it means, Helmet, that it is very likely that it IS in the movie. This isn't some kind of shooting script I think.... I mean it's pretty slick and stylised.... no removed scenes as is normal in exhaustive shooting scripts.... It's very compact. Now why would they publish this bit if it wasn't in the movie.

And yeah: GO BUY IT!!! I did. For your information: it's a book. You know, a thing made of paper with letters inside.... maybe you know it with pictures only. But this one has many pictures in fact, you might like it.

This is what I said right at the very start, queeq. And I thought we had established since then that it had been clearly said that QGJ wasn't in the film in any way. The thread having already SAID it was in the art of AOTC book, why didn't you say that at the time?

Because I just got it yersterday.

And since no one posted the actual quote from the script, I didn't even know WHAT EXACTLY we were talking about. Also, I never saw what it looked like. With TPM there was this thing called a VIsual Screenplay... that included numerous scenes that were cut (like OB1 frying his sabre underwater). It looked like an original script. This doesn't... it's nicely layed out, very compact and slick. I think that adds credibility to this scene being in the film.

Here's the bit anyway:

Scene 121 - Interior Jedi Temple, Yoda's quarters - late afternoon

YODA meditates and suddenly hears a familiar voice, as if from a great distance. It is the voice of QUI-GON JINN, filled with alarm.

Qui-Gon: (V.O.) No anakin! No! Don't! No!

MACE WINDU enters the room and sits down. YODA opens his eyes and looks to MACE.

Mace Windu: What is it?
Yoda: Pain. Suffering. Death, I feel. Something terrible has happened. Young Skywalker is in pain. Terrible pain.





Quite ANH-ish, if you ask me. According to the novel Anakin hears it too.

Pretty cool stuff !

So, Qui-Gon is not IN the movie.... but his voice is. (if if if)

And yet, it DOES prove one doesn't HAVE to disappear to become a ghost.

all it proves to me is that i can't wait until the 16th. i don't have any thoeries about the ghost/disappearance thing, but i think this qui-gon stuff sounds pretty cool (if its included).

And I think it is....

Yes it is cool ! I mean ... try to imagine the emotions that Qui Gon might feel ( even though he does not have a physical body anymore ) ... when he sees the young boy who he encountered on Tattoine, and whom HE, recognized to be a vergence in the force ... the chosen one, who would bring balance to the force, and who HE alone, amongst all the Jedi, insisted be trained .... imagine what Qui Gon might feel when he sees that same boy, grown up, about to perform an action that would start him down the path of the darkside, which would then forever dominate his destiny .... I think its a really nice touch ... Qui Gon crying out from the spirit world to Anakin, asking him to STOP !

You have to remember though that this is a totally unprecendetend thing happening here!

i think its a great touch, especially if it is so unprecidented. i find it cool to think that anakin is in a way resposible for the ghost thing since its the ghosts that are essential in helping bring him back and destroying the emperor.

Looks like it's all were getting about the ghost thing in this film anyway. Which is too bad, but also seems to make it all the more probable that this scene is actually in the film.

Hurray! Liam Neeson is at least heard in Star Wars AOTC. Hurray!

I think it would be neat if they added Qui-Gon's ghost in the end of ROTJ. And the poncho started off as a rag in Obi-Wan's hut when they filmed ANH, so I guess they just found a need for it and said "This would be cool."

We don't know for sure if he is in the movie.

and keep the dude out of ROTJ!

i agree with yerssot. it would be nice for quigon's importance to the overall saga to be seen by being in aotc and maybe ep III, but he has no place in the ot. he's not needed there.

I'm not going to like it when GL will change the OT (if he will do it) to tie in better with the PT!

yeah, i cringe every time i hear a rumor about altering the ot.

My reaction is more of a wince....but I doubt it'll ever happen so I'll comfort myself with that thought

Doesn't actually prove anything both Qui-Gon being a ghost, does, it, quueq?

I still think Qui-Gin is the special case here. Anyway, if disappearing is not linked to the ghost trick, what the heck IS it?

i think it might be close. yoda says in empire, that the force allows you to see things yet to come and friends long gone. or something like that. yoda seems to be the srongest jedi at seeing the future, maybe the skywalkers are so strong that they can materialize their old friends from the force when they're in need. but that doesn't explain the disappearence thing. hopefully we'll have more info in about two weeks.

Hmm...interesting.

DO please remember that Obi-Wan's line to Vader in ANH is keyy-

"Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imaagine'.

This is something that Obi-Wan knows about, but Vader does not.

Yes, but the Emperor knows it then. He says the exact same thing to Luke. I don't know if it's to mock him or not, though.

i never took that line as completely literal. it means luke, not necessarily ob1 as a ghost. as evidenced by the fact that ob1 waited untill luke was watching to die. as for that skywalker theory, i see your point about vader, but maybe its something that they can't control. luke never really appears to try to conjure up ben, except after the duel with vader and he can't (if you face him now i won't be able to help, or whatever). so that being the case vader wouldn't understand the comment if meaning the ghost thing. he definetly doesn't know about luke yet, so i believe thats why he wouldn't understand. he thinks that he just killed the last jedi.

Rex- the Emperor does NOT echo that line. I have no idea what you meant by that. And no, the Emperor does NOT know about all this.

GL has SAID that that line to Vader is key to the ghost theory, so start taking it literally, folks.

Hmm, I remember hearing Palpy say that. But, then again, I have't watch ROTJ for awhile.

Although in EU, he transfers his mind to another body, a clone of himself. But that has nothing to do with disappearing and being a ghost, now, does it?

No, more to do with EU writers being lazy with plotlines.

Palpatine invites Luke to strike him down and then LUKE would become powerful, having unleashed his anger.

But then he would have killed Vader and Palpy anyway.

I think Palpy knew that Vader would block any lethal blow. And Palpy knew that Luke had no chance of beating him. He should have been looking at the big guy in black, of course, but that is rather where the story comes into it all.

And Luke got a hold of himself once he diced Vader's hand. Poor, poor idiot. I would have started running, no matter what.

I wonder if Palpy has a lightsaber, or is he too "strong" to have one?

He must surely have one. He would probably never need to use it with his kinda powers, but I'm sure he must have one stashed away in the attic, or something !

I guess it's the same with palpy as it is with yoda.

I don't know about that...

I think he might. He isn't going to say "Well, after Luke hacks up Vader and tries to kill me, I'm gonna let him hack me up next!" He'd better have a lightsaber.

Yes, I expected you to say that. That's why I said that it's very much like ANH now: just a voice. OB1 was no ghost in ANH either... so lots of potential here. From the book at least I deduct a voice is a shocking and unprecented event... if he can talk, why wouldn't he be able to show himself? Time will tell.

And QGJ should NOT be in ROTJ for he bears no relevance to Luke. I can imagine him showing up as a ghost in ROTJ and Luke thinking: who the heck is that? Schindler??? Here????

GREAT NEWS!!!!! A review on TFN says the voice of QGJ IS, yes people, IS in AOTC....

The ghost debate can continue...

i don't know if this means anything (and it might not if there is a qui-gon ghost) but there is one common thread to all three ghosts of the ot. luke actually witnesses each of their deaths. and since he was the only one who saw the ghosts, i've always assumed it was a luke (or skywalker) related phenomenon. the clock is ticking though and soon we shall see.

Nah, remember the line: "When you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." That was not for Luke, it was for Vader.

And so far we have a voice, like we did in ANH. It is still possible, in my mind even likely, that Qui-Gon will return as a ghost.

well if the voice aint in AOTC .....

It is.... If you read back a post or three, you'll find that a review on TFN sad it IS in AOTC.

or you can get only a voice...

It's weird, and I don't always believe what TFN says. My GM said he didn't hear it, and another friend said he did. I guess I will have to wait until Sunday.

You yes. I have to wait till Thursday.

It is 2-1 though.