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I found my beliefs though testing and logic and tad a little superstition, Tex found Deism through testing and searching and reading..etc (sorry to use you as an example Tex).

Most people found their religion, not by asking, not by searching, researching and the similar, but by blindly accepting

I want to know your thoughts on this -

How do we know, on the religious grounds, that what we've been told is true? How do we know for sure that a long lost prince spoke to a burning bush in a desert? How do we know for sure that a man was killed then resurrected? How do we know for sure that a camel rider, spoke to an Angel in a cave?

How do you know this to be true? Do you believe anything that is written is there by true? If I wrote a book now with my own beliefs and values, and handed it down to a number of tribesmen, generation after generation, centuries after centuries, would my book eventually become the truth even though it wasn't from the beginning?

Would people change my story and my book around depending on what will bring them greater power and control over the tribe?

How do you know your holy book wasn't changed? How do you know, some wicked priestess, Rabi, mullahs, etc... did not make half of the stuff in there up and then passed it off as truth?

How do you know that what all the prophets spoke of was the truth? And how do you know that what they spoke thousands of years ago is what is spoken now?

Are you denying the possibility that men could have interfered and used such books as means of control?


Please note - this isnt argument about existence of God - this is simply a question about practices and your religion - you can believe in a creator, yet have your own morals and principles, not dictated by thousands of year old laws - so the question is - how do you know that all these people, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were what they said they were?

How do you know? Do you blatantly deny the possibility that one of them, two of them, or all three of them lied? Or how about they all spoke the truth, but that the truth they spoke was not the one that you're practicing now?

Thoughts? Ideas?

Wow...I guess you've been thinking abit lately...


I feel it is true that people follow blindly...Its called faith, and it's used to answer the unexplainable...But there has to come a time in most peoples life where you start looking for the answers to your own questions..You start doing research. You read everything you can lay your hands on and look at both sides and try not to be bias. I feel it is hard to prove or disprove things that are so historically old, but there is proof out there that things have been changed in the Bible...There seems to be much written also that parts of Bible stories and Jesus' life have been taken from myths of Dionysus-Osirus, Mythras, and of all things Horus!! Now these things mimic Bible stories and Jesus' life and were written about 2500 years earlier...Some I have told turn a deaf ear, some I have told come out and say it's not true. And I'm sure there are some that feel I've been mislead by the devil...Unfortunately, these are the people I know. I think it's wise to question everything and to follow no one, if that makes since...I think you'll feel when it's right...And when it's not right you can also feel that also..it's tension, feeling condescending, it's feeling desperate for yourself or others, it's
uneasiness...All these feelings are not from God...So how can you be on the right path if you're feeling these things.

I feel everybody should take a good look at what they are believing and ask themselves why...You shouldn't be believing it just because you think it's cool, or because a group pressured you into it, or even a parent telling you so...It's good to look at all beliefs including the unbelief, Atheism...Everything...get the best proof you can and then live your truth...Just my opinion..


Maybe I'll become a Shaman

The cool thing about my beliefs is that they are evolving and never above reproach.

I dont have any holy books or prophets telling me what to do.
God's nature gave me reason, it would be a shame (and an insult to god) not to use it.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Wow...I guess you've been thinking abit lately...


I feel it is true that people follow blindly...Its called faith, and it's used to answer the unexplainable...But there has to come a time in most peoples life where you start looking for the answers to your own questions..You start doing research. You read everything you can lay your hands on and look at both sides and try not to be bias. I feel it is hard to prove or disprove things that are so historically old, but there is proof out there that things have been changed in the Bible...There seems to be much written also that parts of Bible stories and Jesus' life have been taken from myths of Dionysus-Osirus, Mythras, and of all things Horus!! Now these things mimic Bible stories and Jesus' life and were written about 2500 years earlier...Some I have told turn a deaf ear, some I have told come out and say it's not true. And I'm sure there are some that feel I've been mislead by the devil...Unfortunately, these are the people I know. I think it's wise to question everything and to follow no one, if that makes since...I think you'll feel when it's right...And when it's not right you can also feel that also..it's tension, feeling condescending, it's feeling desperate for yourself or others, it's
uneasiness...All these feelings are not from God...So how can you be on the right path if you're feeling these things.

I feel everybody should take a good look at what they are believing and ask themselves why...You shouldn't be believing it just because you think it's cool, or because a group pressured you into it, or even a parent telling you so...It's good to look at all beliefs including the unbelief, Atheism...Everything...get the best proof you can and then live your truth...Just my opinion..


Maybe I'll become a Shaman

Indeed.

However, its not so much about believing and not believing in unexplainable.
If after my soulserching I have found that I would like to believe that Matrix is not a fiction story, but the true state of the world, I have done so because it possibly gives explanation to many unexplained things I have experienced, or (insert possible explanations here)

However, if I am to preach to someone else, I would explain to them why I believe this is true, and they may or may not agree - its not matter of correctness, because of the fact that it is a belief.

Faith is spiritual.

What I am challanging is this notion of faith posed as a fact through Torah, Bible and Quran. At this point, the faith stops being individual and starts being collective.
At this point the faith stops being about deep thoughts and beliefs, but about someone else's code of morality, means of control.

Thus, my challange is about those books and those rules and complsary morality and compulsary religion - its not about abandoning beliefs in sole creator, or Jesus as a teacher of important lessons of life and tolerance, its more about abandining this code and law and the 'one true religion' for all Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Many people do not see beyond this point, thus this whole question is all about how do you know?
Is it really what you believe, or is it something you have been imposed on and/or scared into believing.

you dont know for sure , you believe

you never can know for sure until you die
i think that if the bible truly where changed though that a hole lot of the stories in it wouldn't still be there i mean a hole lot of what it says we are to do and how we are to live isn't popular.

Originally posted by finti
you dont know for sure , you believe

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
...

However, its not so much about believing and not believing in unexplainable.
If after my soulserching I have found that I would like to believe that Matrix is not a fiction story, but the true state of the world, I have done so because it possibly gives explanation to many unexplained things I have experienced, or (insert possible explanations here)

However, if I am to preach to someone else, I would explain to them why I believe this is true, and they may or may not agree - its not matter of correctness, because of the fact that it is a belief.

Faith is spiritual.

What I am challanging is this notion of faith posed as a fact through Torah, Bible and Quran. At this point, the faith stops being individual and starts being collective.
At this point the faith stops being about deep thoughts and beliefs, but about someone else's code of morality, means of control.

Thus, my challange is about those books and those rules and complsary morality and compulsary religion - its not about abandoning beliefs in sole creator, or Jesus as a teacher of important lessons of life and tolerance, its more about abandining this code and law and the 'one true religion' for all Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Many people do not see beyond this point, thus this whole question is all about how do you know?
Is it really what you believe, or is it something you have been imposed on and/or scared into believing.

lil b, I just simplified it a bit

Originally posted by debbiejo
Wow...I guess you've been thinking abit lately...


I feel it is true that people follow blindly...Its called faith, and it's used to answer the unexplainable...But there has to come a time in most peoples life where you start looking for the answers to your own questions..You start doing research. You read everything you can lay your hands on and look at both sides and try not to be bias. I feel it is hard to prove or disprove things that are so historically old, but there is proof out there that things have been changed in the Bible...There seems to be much written also that parts of Bible stories and Jesus' life have been taken from myths of Dionysus-Osirus, Mythras, and of all things Horus!! Now these things mimic Bible stories and Jesus' life and were written about 2500 years earlier...Some I have told turn a deaf ear, some I have told come out and say it's not true. And I'm sure there are some that feel I've been mislead by the devil...Unfortunately, these are the people I know. I think it's wise to question everything and to follow no one, if that makes since...I think you'll feel when it's right...And when it's not right you can also feel that also..it's tension, feeling condescending, it's feeling desperate for yourself or others, it's
uneasiness...All these feelings are not from God...So how can you be on the right path if you're feeling these things.

I feel everybody should take a good look at what they are believing and ask themselves why...You shouldn't be believing it just because you think it's cool, or because a group pressured you into it, or even a parent telling you so...It's good to look at all beliefs including the unbelief, Atheism...Everything...get the best proof you can and then live your truth...Just my opinion..


Maybe I'll become a Shaman Careful with that peyote then, it's a doozy.

^ Nothing better than Cream of Mushroom soup....lol

Originally posted by finti
lil b, I just simplified it a bit

Yeah, sorry. I tend to complicate everything anyway. I do see what you're saying however.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

its not about abandoning beliefs in sole creator, or Jesus as a teacher of important lessons of life and tolerance, its more about abandining this code and law and the 'one true religion' for all Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

So your talking about new age then?

Actually, a New Age belief would do away with many of the arguments on whos religion is right...Because they all are.

Debbiejoe

New Age belief? And your point...? In what way are ALL religions right? The only religions that even begin to show truth are monotheistic religions, such as Judaism, Islam and Christianity. They all entail the notion of one God. None compare. Yes, Judaism is one with Christianity, but the practices are different. Nevermind that for now.

Christianity contains more evidents through science, archeology and secular history than any other, not to mention prophecy. Any one who takes the time to sift through the pros and cons realizes that fact. Do the research!

What religion shows more promise than Christianity? We could ramble all day, but truth is usually backed by facts, not philosophy like many other religions. The circumstantial evidence supporting Christianity is powerful, and demands in depth study. If Christianity is false, why all the evidence stating otherwise?

You would really have to have a passive attitude not to notice. Be fair.

God being who he is would not be the cause of all the wars and fights here, in my opinion. The" I'm right and you're wrong and you along with billions of people are going to hell." Every religion points its finger at the others. Even within the Christian community do they point fingers at each other. This cannot be what God had in mind when He said to love each other. Besides the concept of hell came much later in 150 A.D. By the Roman Church. Religion needs to be done away with, it's the cause of bigotry and hatred. We will never have peace until people practice the essence of their faith, which is to love each other. That's how you know them, by their love for each other...

Besides as I have mentioned and shown before, the scriptures have been manipulated by the early Roman church for control of the people and for their money (To pay for the Cathedrals) and for the control of land. It was an Empire just like any other one, but used God as a control. How ingenious of them.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Debbiejoe

New Age belief? And your point...? In what way are ALL religions right? The only religions that even begin to show truth are monotheistic religions, such as Judaism, Islam and Christianity. They all entail the notion of one God. None compare. Yes, Judaism is one with Christianity, but the practices are different. Nevermind that for now.

Christianity contains more evidents through science, archeology and secular history than any other, not to mention prophecy. Any one who takes the time to sift through the pros and cons realizes that fact. Do the research!

What religion shows more promise than Christianity? We could ramble all day, but truth is usually backed by facts, not philosophy like many other religions. The circumstantial evidence supporting Christianity is powerful, and demands in depth study. If Christianity is false, why all the evidence stating otherwise?

You would really have to have a passive attitude not to notice. Be fair.

Well for one, Hinduism beliefs that ALL religions are correct, but it is the uptightness of Judaism, Christianity and Islam which makes them believe that they are the only right religion - hence the religious hate.

Personaly, this is what I think ALL religions should be like...

Hindu Gods say -

Although I am in every religion, I am beyond all religions...
I am beyond all dualities... of Good / Evil, of Love / Hate, of Pleasure/Pain....
.... your anger, your bitterness,
does not bother Me at all....
there is no "bad" thing which you could do,
.... or "good" thing which you could fail to do...
which would prevent Me from perfecting you to that purpose
for which I ultimately created you.

lil bitchiness

Hinduism is a pantheistic religion. Instead of having a belief in God as Creator and distinct from the world, pantheistic religions, while different from each other in their own right, claim that the world is actually identical with God.

In Hinduism, for example, God is really Brahman, or the ultimate power underlying the universe. Everything comes from Brahman and everything returns to it.

The differences in belief between Christianity and pantheistic religions are great. For example, if God is in everything, then it follows that God is in both good and evil, rather than separate from it. Therefore, good and evil become relative, even illusionary terms. Additionally, while Judaism, Christianity and Islam focus on a written Word of God given to man, pantheistic religions tend to focus on private mystical experiences and philosophy instead.

Christianity claims to be a historical faith, directly tied to real space-and-time history. Given that, it's either literally true and far more than a feel-good kick, or false and therefore not worth investing your emotions in.

debbiejoe

The Holy Bible has 24,750 original manuscripts, which paves the way to cross-checking for accuracy. The Holy Bible has a textual accuracy of 99.5 percent. The Dead Sea Scrolls (which were found less than 100 years ago) amongst others verify this.

debbiejoe

The only religion in the world (to my knowledge) that teaches violence and murder is Islam. The book of Koran has an entire book devoted to Jihad. The terrorists involved in the 9/11 tragedy, conducted themsleves in the name of Allah, to die as martyrs and find eternal life in Heaven. What a great religion, when children strap bombs to themselves and blow up buildings loaded with inocent people. And the parents are proud! They do it for Allah.

There is no "for sure" when it comes to religious beliefs, faith and fact have no place together, anyone who claims to KNOW that what they believe is "for sure" is wrong.

BackFire

What about my faith in Jesus Christ do you find questionable? There is a wealth of circumstancial evidence plausible enough to withstand scrutiny in a court of law to support my faith.

I challenge you to read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. The book contains interviews with scientists, archeologists and historians discussing issues surrounding Jesus Christ. Lee Strobel was an Atheist workinig as a journalist to prove Christianity wrong. In the process, he became a Christian. It's an easy read; it's nothing but interviews with subject matter experts.

Send me a private message with your home or work mailing address, and I will buy the book and mail it to you if that's what it takes.

Test me on this.

Jesus Christ is questionable because there is factually no proof that he did the deeds that are claimed (water to wine, ressurecting from the dead, walking on water, etc).

BackFire

If not miracles and the resurrection, what do you propose branded Jesus Christ the title of being the most controversial historical figure in the world? After all, Jesus Christ is just a product of imagination right?

Good marketing by Christians.

How do christians know for sure that psychic stuff is evil? Because the bible says it? If the bible said living past 17 was evil would you kill yourself when you were 17?

It's strange. I myself have had proof of the afterlife, I know for sure that it exists. From belief, and from proof. But others don't believe in it. It's strange that I know ghosts exist but others don't.

I know people will be saying "Ghosts don't exist just because you say so." But ghosts DO exist. I have had solid proof of this, and someday the truth will be revealed. Weather christians like it or not.

Originally posted by BackFire
Jesus Christ is questionable because there is factually no proof that he did the deeds that are claimed (water to wine, ressurecting from the dead, walking on water, etc).

Exactly!

Although my dad is not religious, he says that the bible is proof. But that isn't proof! For all we know some guy could have been drunk when he wrote it!

I think christians are brain washed. They don't seem to be able to think for themselves. They think psychic stuff is evil because they are told it's evil. They are not letting themselves decide, they are letting others decide for them.

Many metaphysical things can be proved with science now.

BackFire

Christian marketing? Explain your theory please.

BlackC@t

One issue at a time.

They know how to market their guy. "He died for your sins, etc etc, he did this miracle and that miracle, though we can't prove it, he did!" Just because something is controversial doesn't mean diddly, it certainly doesn't mean that he did the magic tricks that are claimed..

Point is, there is no hands down proof of anything having to do with religion, it can't be proven that jesus did his miracles, it can't be proven that god exists, it can't be proven. There is no proof that christianity is correct, there is no proof that aethiesm is correct, there is not proof that budhism is correct. It's all a matter of belief, anyone who claims it to be more then that is wrong.

Originally posted by BlackC@t
Exactly!

Although my dad is not religious, he says that the bible is proof. But that isn't proof! For all we know some guy could have been drunk when he wrote it!

I think christians are brain washed. They don't seem to be able to think for themselves. They think psychic stuff is evil because they are told it's evil. They are not letting themselves decide, they are letting others decide for them.

Well actualy there were 36 authors who wrote the books in the Bible over quite a few decades. Maybe all of them were drunk?

Originally posted by BlackC@t
How do christians know for sure that psychic stuff is evil? Because the bible says it? If the bible said living past 17 was evil would you kill yourself when you were 17?

It's strange. I myself have had proof of the afterlife, I know for sure that it exists. From belief, and from proof. But others don't believe in it. It's strange that I know ghosts exist but others don't.

I know people will be saying "Ghosts don't exist just because you say so." But ghosts DO exist. I have had solid proof of this, and someday the truth will be revealed. Weather christians like it or not.

Don't generalise. We don't think it is evil, but the Bible tells us not to meddle in the spirit realm because we cannot fully understand it and can easily be fooled by dark spirits posing as for example your dead grandma. The spirit realm is very complicated and we do not have enough knowledge to safely go there. People become possessed because they think it is a joke or they do not know what they are dealing with. And yes I do believe in ghosts (spirits). Even the Bible tells us that just after Jesus died many spirits of people were seen in Jerusalem.
Why they are here and where they come from is still uncertain. I have my own personal view on that.

I do know that many churches say things are evil because it's not understood. Fortunately science has been proving that many invisible things are indeed natural. Psychic phenomena is also natural, though to dabble in something you don't understand can be harmful. There are positive and negative energies in the world. The negative ones can do you some damage.

Originally posted by BackFire
They know how to market their guy. "He died for your sins, etc etc, he did this miracle and that miracle, though we can't prove it, he did!" Just because something is controversial doesn't mean diddly, it certainly doesn't mean that he did the magic tricks that are claimed..

These so called magical tricks that Jesus performed still happens today... blind people see after being layed hands on, paralysed start to walk, people on the verge of death in hospitals walking out completely healed after one prayer and all of this happens with many witnesses, sometimes thousands, around. There is a evangelist called Raynard Bonke, who has prayed for someone who had no hand and while praying the hand started forming and growing from the arm stump, this was video taped. People has risen from the dead after he prayed for them. He prayed for a Muslim child without eyes and over three days eyes formed in the eye sockets. As a result a whole town became Christians. They were all witness to this. But I guess there is such a big conspiracy going on and everybody is lying. These things/miracles make Jesus and all he did true because he said that in His name we will do these things. We do not need any more proof than this. Next time a evangelist comes to your town, go and see the power of Jesus Christ still working today.

Sorry, evangelists are minipulative liars. All they do is pay people to fake being paralized or blind, and then have them come out and walk after he touches them and shit.

They don't prove shit.

Originally posted by BackFire
Sorry, evangelists are minipulative liars. All they do is pay people to fake being paralized or blind, and then have them come out and walk after he touches them and shit.

They don't prove shit.

Do they pay the doctors in hospitals and all the staff as well? I never received any money to fake the miracle that happened to me. Get real!

I wouldn't doubt taht they do.

Just becuase strange things have happened to you personally doens't prove anything. There is no proof of any belief, it's all faith, period.

Originally posted by BackFire
I wouldn't doubt taht they do.

Just becuase strange things have happened to you personally doens't prove anything. There is no proof of any belief, it's all faith, period.

You are so paranoid. It looks more like you were brainwashed not to believe.

What happened to me was not strange. We asked God for it, prayed and it happened in front of our eyes. God gave me the proof of what I believed in.

In case you were wondering, I was born with one leg 2 inches shorter than the other so much that I could not walk normal or wear normal shoes. During the prayer, we had our eyes open, I saw my leg grow to fit the length of the other. I could feel a warm sensation run down my leg. I stood up that night and walk out normal for the first time. But I guess it is just all faith, period.

sonnet

Thank you for the compliment.

Originally posted by BackFire
Sorry, evangelists are minipulative liars. All they do is pay people to fake being paralized or blind, and then have them come out and walk after he touches them and shit.

They don't prove shit.

Of course there are fakes, but also, there are real miracles...not just in the Christian faith either.

And why not somebody raise from the dead and do miracles?

Originally posted by sonnet
These so called magical tricks that Jesus performed still happens today... blind people see after being layed hands on, paralysed start to walk, people on the verge of death in hospitals walking out completely healed after one prayer and all of this happens with many witnesses, sometimes thousands, around. There is a evangelist called Raynard Bonke, who has prayed for someone who had no hand and while praying the hand started forming and growing from the arm stump, this was video taped. People has risen from the dead after he prayed for them. He prayed for a Muslim child without eyes and over three days eyes formed in the eye sockets. As a result a whole town became Christians. They were all witness to this. But I guess there is such a big conspiracy going on and everybody is lying. These things/miracles make Jesus and all he did true because he said that in His name we will do these things. We do not need any more proof than this. Next time a evangelist comes to your town, go and see the power of Jesus Christ still working today.

lol Yeah, and ive seen a man pull a bunny out of an empty hat and a guy walk into a box and disappear. I mean really, i cant believe people actually think this stuff is true. Its just a big scam to get your money. I mean you really think that the video of that boy with his hand
forming from the arm stump or whatever was real*cough*computer edited*cough*. I mean i can do that right on my computer

Oh and about your leg "growing to fit the length of the other" ummmm ooook *slowly backs out of room*

Originally posted by ushomefree
debbiejoe

The only religion in the world (to my knowledge) that teaches violence and murder is Islam. The book of Koran has an entire book devoted to Jihad. The terrorists involved in the 9/11 tragedy, conducted themsleves in the name of Allah, to die as martyrs and find eternal life in Heaven. What a great religion, when children strap bombs to themselves and blow up buildings loaded with inocent people. And the parents are proud! They do it for Allah.

I'm not on this forum much, and mostly I just read and not respond, but I felt the need to mention that the Koran mentions Allah's compassion and forgiveness much more than it mentions 'jihad' or war.

Codemning the numerous Muslims based on the actions of the terrorists (peaceful Muslims far outweigh these groups...the terrorists are just the ones that get the news coverage) would be like condemning all of Christianity because they let the Crusades happen. I'm neither of these religions, but anyone can see how any religion can be twisted to suit the needs of crazed individuals...only the people involved, not the religion they claim to represent, should be held responsible.

Originally posted by sonnet
Well actualy there were 36 authors

I'm sure there was rolleyes1